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<v Speaker 1>Last week, we dove into part one of the absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>horrifying story of the Wichita horror, and today we're continuing

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<v Speaker 1>on the story with part two. So be sure to

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<v Speaker 1>listen to part one so we can dive into the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of this wicked case together.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked

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<v Speaker 2>and Grim, a true crime podcasting.

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<v Speaker 1>The following podcast and material intend more mature audience listener discretion.

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<v Speaker 1>Not too shabby, not too shabby at all, how goes it.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't talk about anything that we needed to go

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<v Speaker 1>over before we started this case, so this little intro

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<v Speaker 1>is just being completely impromptly done.

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<v Speaker 2>You looked at me so oddly when you were doing

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<v Speaker 2>your intro, and I was supposed to be like, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>no cool. Would I do it wrong? No, it was

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<v Speaker 2>just I wasn't ready.

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<v Speaker 1>You weren't ready. Yeah, that's what it was.

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<v Speaker 2>I was actually dazing off, but I woke up right

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<v Speaker 2>before I needed.

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<v Speaker 1>I was needed to cap back to reality.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm actually drinking above Bubbly. Yeah, Bubbly. I'm drinking a

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<v Speaker 2>Bubbly too, And because they have some damn good flavors nowadays,

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<v Speaker 2>they do the bubbly peach. I'm doing watermelon like they're good.

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<v Speaker 1>They are good, and honestly not gonna lie. I kind

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<v Speaker 1>of wanted to be here, but I'm gonna be on

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<v Speaker 1>the golf course all day tomorrow and I'm probably gonna

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<v Speaker 1>have a few then, so I'm saving it for that.

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<v Speaker 1>Probably I will be Let's let's be honest.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I have a challenge for you. No, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I was like Joe golfing one day without drinking.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I knew that would be it. I knew that

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<v Speaker 1>would be I can't that's that's not golfing.

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<v Speaker 2>See, Okay, I'm kind of odd because I okay, I

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<v Speaker 2>would be just as fine golfing with like a drink

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<v Speaker 2>or a bubbly like it would make, or a pop

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<v Speaker 2>even like it would make no difference to me whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it, it's close for me, it's not quite

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<v Speaker 1>the same. Like for me, it's like if you go

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<v Speaker 1>out and you mow the lawn, you sit back and

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<v Speaker 1>you just like, ah, like a cold refreshing beer just

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<v Speaker 1>hits the spot in those certain moments. And there's something

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<v Speaker 1>about golfing where like a beer just hits the spot

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<v Speaker 1>in that moment.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Yeah, I guess I just don't have that.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I just a cold, refreshing drink.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the same to me because it's totally fair. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there's times where, yeah, a beer isn't going to do

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<v Speaker 1>it for me. I need like a bubbly or like

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<v Speaker 1>a can of coke, Like cann of coke hits in

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<v Speaker 1>certain moments, you know, yeah, or an iced tea.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to be like that a little bit more

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<v Speaker 2>with wine. Like I'd come home when I had my

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<v Speaker 2>day job and be like, holy shit, like I need

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<v Speaker 2>a glass of wine. But I don't really have that

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<v Speaker 2>so much anymore. Working for myself really well, that's a

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<v Speaker 2>good thing. So apparently my job doesn't make me want

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<v Speaker 2>to drink.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe I need to be doing more at the home

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<v Speaker 1>to be making you want a drink. I'm not doing

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<v Speaker 1>my husband duties.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyways, we got a few patrons to thank and shout

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<v Speaker 1>out this week for joining over on Patreon, So shout

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<v Speaker 1>out to Junafish, Catherine Davies, Susie DeHart, Shauna. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>tell if it's an iron L. It's either a lowercase

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<v Speaker 1>L or a capital I. Okay, So SHAWNA I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>say Shauna and Julian Luellie, but most of all because

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<v Speaker 1>I love this name they used to sign up fine

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<v Speaker 1>girl Brandy right on. So shout out to all you

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<v Speaker 1>guys who signed up a Patreon and are supporting our show.

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<v Speaker 1>We appreciate it, Thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, next week is a Patreon exclusive. Oh right, August

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<v Speaker 2>next week.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, crazy time is flying by.

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<v Speaker 2>It's wild like it's pretty much winter.

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<v Speaker 1>Just kidding, kidding, I'm pretty sure we're saying that every

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<v Speaker 1>week at this point. We're just dreading that coming our way.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh boy, do you remember the case that we're doing,

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<v Speaker 1>the witch Ta Horror?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, I mean I definitely put a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>on it out of my brain because it was terrible.

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<v Speaker 1>It's one of those cases where, yeah, you kind of

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<v Speaker 1>try and forget about it because man, it just it's so.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeahri fine, I think I said this last episode, But

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<v Speaker 2>to like think that we live in a world that

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<v Speaker 2>people will do this to another person is it's it's devastating.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, devastating is a really good word. Yeah. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I got a little sum up for you guys, to

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<v Speaker 1>sum up part one. If you listen last, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>last episode on Tuesday or sorry, Friday, today's Tuesday. If

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<v Speaker 1>you listen on Friday and you got a couple days

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<v Speaker 1>in between and you didn't just binge both back to back,

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<v Speaker 1>here's little sum up for you. So in part one,

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<v Speaker 1>we had five friends who were attacked in their Wichita

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<v Speaker 1>home by two brothers by the name of Reginald and

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Carr on December fourteenth, in the year two thousand.

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<v Speaker 1>The brothers forced their way in at gunpoint, held the

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<v Speaker 1>group hostage, sexually assaulted them, forced them to sexually assault

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<v Speaker 1>each other as well, and then forced them to withdraw

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<v Speaker 1>money from ATMs. After hours of physical and sexual abuse,

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<v Speaker 1>they drove all five victims to a snow covered field,

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<v Speaker 1>made them kneel, and shot them execution style in the

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<v Speaker 1>back of the head. Four out of the five of

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<v Speaker 1>them were killed. Holly was the sole survivor. She was

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<v Speaker 1>shot in the back of the head but miraculously survived

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<v Speaker 1>because the bullet deflected enough off a hair clip that

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<v Speaker 1>she was wearing, and then she was subsequently run over

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<v Speaker 1>by their vehicle as well that they had stolen from

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<v Speaker 1>the group of friends, and she also survived that while

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<v Speaker 1>playing dead.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>She then walked over a mile for help, gave Pliefs

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<v Speaker 1>enough information to start the manhunt, and by the next

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<v Speaker 1>day both the car brothers or count Reginald at his

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<v Speaker 1>girlfriend's apartment and Jonathan at his own girlfriend's mom's house.

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<v Speaker 1>The stolen truck, engagement ring and other stolen items helped

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<v Speaker 1>tie this whole thing together. And here we have them

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<v Speaker 1>in custody. That's where we left off.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. And the incredible thing too that just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>popped back into my mind was Hally how when she

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<v Speaker 2>got to that house she needed to ensure that she

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<v Speaker 2>told the story before they went about calling the police

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff, because in case she didn't make it or something.

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<v Speaker 2>She was quite worried, right, yes, that this needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be out there and someone needs to know what happened. Like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>that's incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so Holly is one hundred percent or badass of

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<v Speaker 1>the day, honestly, Like, holy shit. So with that all

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<v Speaker 1>being ZETI ready to dive into part two.

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<v Speaker 2>I think so, but I also am very confused. I

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<v Speaker 2>just realized I wonder why they drove them off to

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<v Speaker 2>the field like that and didn't just you know, kill

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<v Speaker 2>them in the house.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, they did go back to the house to do

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<v Speaker 1>some more robbing.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh maybe they just wanted them there and didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with dead bodies.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess a way of disposing them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's lucky for Holly, really.

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<v Speaker 1>That's true. And honestly as well. You know, gunshots out

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<v Speaker 1>in a little bit more of a field where people

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<v Speaker 1>less likely to hear it rather than you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>suburban area or something.

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<v Speaker 2>Touche. So yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, with Jonathan and Reginald Carr both in custody, investigators

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<v Speaker 1>began the painstaking process of connecting all the horrifying pieces

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<v Speaker 1>of their crime spree together. Detectives presented images of brothers

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<v Speaker 1>in lineups to Anne Wilenta. Now. Anne was a fifty

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<v Speaker 1>five year old librarian and a talented cellist. She was

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<v Speaker 1>currently still fighting for her life in the hospital after

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<v Speaker 1>being shot days before this massacre occurred. It was December eleventh,

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<v Speaker 1>in the year two thousand, during the car Brothers crime spree,

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<v Speaker 1>when she was following her usual driving daily routine on

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<v Speaker 1>her way home from the orchestra practice, when Reginald and

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<v Speaker 1>John Carr approached her vehicle allegedly under the pretense of

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<v Speaker 1>seeking help. She rolled down her car window. One of

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<v Speaker 1>the brothers then shot her three times in her vehicle,

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<v Speaker 1>causing severe spinal injuries.

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<v Speaker 2>I just have to say, I freaking hate that. That

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<v Speaker 2>is like why people are not helpful.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're terrified.

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<v Speaker 2>Shit like that happening exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Now. She was able to immediately immediately identify Reginald out

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<v Speaker 1>of the images that she was presented, and she identified

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<v Speaker 1>him as the man that she had seen shoot her. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>this is an important detail to note. It's important that

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<v Speaker 1>we note that Anne also pointed out other individuals as

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<v Speaker 1>potentially being the second man she saw, though that person

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<v Speaker 1>that she specifically pointed to is being I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>the other guy. That person was actually imprisoned at the

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<v Speaker 1>time of the shooting. This detail later highlighted the challenges

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<v Speaker 1>inherent in witness testimonies. Right, But despite that, Reginald's identification

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<v Speaker 1>was clear, and it became increasingly evident that the car

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<v Speaker 1>brothers were indeed responsible for this brutal attack.

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<v Speaker 2>U huh okay now.

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<v Speaker 1>Hawley also later confirmed Reginald's identity once she was well

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<v Speaker 1>enough to be formally interviewed. Now, as DNA, hair, blood

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<v Speaker 1>and saliva samples were collected from the two brothers. Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>struck up a chilling conversation with Detective Kelly Otis, one

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<v Speaker 1>of the officers that was on the case. Now, Detective

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<v Speaker 1>Otis recounted that Jonathan inquired about the other quadruple homicide

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<v Speaker 1>that had occurred on December seventh. Now, for reference, this

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<v Speaker 1>homicide had nothing to do with this one. It was

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<v Speaker 1>just like, oh my god, in a week span, there

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<v Speaker 1>was two quadruple homicides, right, yeah, But he asked what

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<v Speaker 1>had happened to the two men that were arrested in

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<v Speaker 1>that case. Now, Detective Otis calmly informed him that they

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<v Speaker 1>were charged with capital murder, which he then had to

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<v Speaker 1>explain to Jonathan meant they could face the death penalty

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<v Speaker 1>if they were convicted. Showing a disturbing curiosity and seemingly

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<v Speaker 1>anticipating a similar fate for himself, right, Jonathan then asked

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<v Speaker 1>how an execution occurs, to which he was told it

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<v Speaker 1>would be by lethal injection. There was a small pause

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<v Speaker 1>in a moment. Later, he asks, quote, do you feel anything?

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<v Speaker 1>Detective Otis simply replied, quote, we've never been able to

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<v Speaker 1>ask anyone, Oh gosh, which honestly is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most badass lines I've ever heard from an investigator, Like.

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<v Speaker 2>Damn, kind of like it's I mean, he's being very honest,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's kind of a slap in the face a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit too.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, yeah, like, holy shit, we've never been able to

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<v Speaker 1>ask anyone.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I's thinking quick on your feet there, really yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>So because I feel like a lot of people are like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, yeah, but yeah, his answer was great.

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<v Speaker 1>I just picture him looking at him, not blinking, just monotone,

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<v Speaker 1>and be like, we've never been able to ask anyone,

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's what I.

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<v Speaker 2>Pictured, Just like, oh fuck yeah, just like, clench your

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<v Speaker 2>ash cheeks a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like you brought that to a new level.

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<v Speaker 1>But you're not wrong. Now. Tragically, after clinging to life

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<v Speaker 1>for days, an Wallenta would pass away in the hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh no.

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<v Speaker 1>She would officially become the fifth victim of the Car

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<v Speaker 1>Brothers rampage and suffered complications from her injuries that led

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<v Speaker 1>her led to her death on January two, two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and one, due to pulmonary embolism.

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<v Speaker 2>So did they what was the reason for even hurting her?

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't really have a reason.

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<v Speaker 1>No, okay, well just rolled down her window, and they

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<v Speaker 1>shot her three.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Now. The investigation meanwhile continued to build an undeniable case

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<v Speaker 1>against these two men. When a handgun was discovered along

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<v Speaker 1>Route ninety six near the snowy field where the four

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<v Speaker 1>friends had been executed, the Kansas State Crime Lab confirmed

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<v Speaker 1>it was in fact the same weapon used in the

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<v Speaker 1>murders of Jason, Aaron, Brad and Heather. Crucially, it was

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<v Speaker 1>also linked to Anne's murder and even the shooting of

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Shriver's tires after his abduction and robbery. Now I

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<v Speaker 1>did mention Andrew in the first part briefly. In part one,

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<v Speaker 1>he saw Reginald's face in the news and instantly recognized

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<v Speaker 1>him and phoned the police to report his incident. Now

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew was a twenty three year old assistant ball coach

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<v Speaker 1>at Wichita State University. On December eighth, in the year

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand, he was just finished running errands. He stopped

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<v Speaker 1>at a convenience store and was about to head home.

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<v Speaker 1>As he got into his car, Reginald and Jonathan Carr

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<v Speaker 1>approached him, one of them pointing a gun at him.

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<v Speaker 1>They forced him into the passenger seat of his own vehicle,

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<v Speaker 1>and took control and took off. Over the next couple

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<v Speaker 1>of hours, they drove Andrew around Wichita at gunpoint, forcing him,

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<v Speaker 1>like the others, to withdraw money from multiple ATMs. They

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<v Speaker 1>also robbed him of his personal belongings, including his wallet, watch,

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<v Speaker 1>and cell phone. Now throughout the ordeal, Andrew remained calm,

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<v Speaker 1>answered their questions and complied with their demands. He also

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<v Speaker 1>later stated that the cars kept asking him questions, questions

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<v Speaker 1>like do you believe in God? What would you do

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<v Speaker 1>if someone had a gun to your head?

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<v Speaker 2>Things like that, Yeah, that would kind of alarm you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a little bit by Now, Eventually, after taking his money,

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<v Speaker 1>the two brothers let him go, leaving him unharmed, but

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<v Speaker 1>shooting out the tires of his vehicle as they left,

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<v Speaker 1>presumably as means of him not getting to police as

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<v Speaker 1>fast and giving them a chance to get away.

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<v Speaker 2>That's surprising that they didn't kill them.

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<v Speaker 1>It is now, as I mentioned, the gun was now

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<v Speaker 1>officially tied to this event too, because I mean they

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<v Speaker 1>shot all the tires, right. So, while the full extent

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<v Speaker 1>of Reginald and Jonathan's crimes during this period was never

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00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.399
<v Speaker 1>definitively determined, there was now no doubt the brothers were

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<v Speaker 1>responsible for these three separate incidents. Hundreds of items of

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<v Speaker 1>physical evidence directly linked the two brothers to the crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>A wide array of belongings stolen from the Birchwood Drive apartment,

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<v Speaker 1>including a TV, various items of clothing, a credit card,

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<v Speaker 1>they were found in both their homes. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>most damning pieces of evidence was the diamond engagement ring

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<v Speaker 1>taken from the Birchwood home, which was found right in

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan's pocket when he was apprehended. And that ring was

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<v Speaker 1>of course it belonged to Jason and he was going

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<v Speaker 1>to use it to propose to Holly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just brutal.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he stole that right in front of them. Just

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<v Speaker 1>didn't care, not a care in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, Holly obviously had no idea about it, and

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<v Speaker 2>it should have been just a magical time for them,

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, they took that away.

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutors even located a watch stolen from Andrew Shibbers at

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<v Speaker 1>the home of one of the brothers as well. Okay, now,

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<v Speaker 1>beyond the stolen possessions, forensic analysis painted a stark picture

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<v Speaker 1>of the situation. Investigator Gary Miller testified that a shoeprint

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<v Speaker 1>found at the Birchwood Drive apartment was a definitive match

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<v Speaker 1>to Jonathan's shoe. He also meticulously detailed how the gun

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00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.720
<v Speaker 1>found near the highway could be directly tied to all

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<v Speaker 1>three of these incidents, though he clarified that the gun

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<v Speaker 1>itself couldn't be directly linked to either of the car

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<v Speaker 1>brothers specifically, I mean they didn't own the guns or

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00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.799
<v Speaker 1>register or anything, right, So yeah. Jonathan's DNA and seamen

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00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:00.879
<v Speaker 1>were also found at the Bird to a Drive apartment,

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00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:05.480
<v Speaker 1>as well as swabs taken from Holly. Additionally, Heather's blood

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00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:10.039
<v Speaker 1>was found in Reginald's clothing, though Reginald's lawyer later attempted

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00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:12.399
<v Speaker 1>to argue that this blood could have transferred onto him

294
00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.759
<v Speaker 1>after coming into contact with his brother, suggesting it didn't

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00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.759
<v Speaker 1>prove his presence at the crime scene.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, did they did it? Just jump over? I mean

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00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:27.279
<v Speaker 2>they're probably thinking saying that they hugged or something, but.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's more so I mean, we get into a

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00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:32.519
<v Speaker 1>little bit later, but the brothers, basically their defense each

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<v Speaker 1>point at the other.

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00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.519
<v Speaker 2>So seriously basically.

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00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:39.519
<v Speaker 1>But we'll get into that now. Even those close to

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00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:44.519
<v Speaker 1>the brothers provided key testimony. Tronta Adams, Jonathan's girlfriend, testified

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00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:46.639
<v Speaker 1>that she had met up with both brothers on the

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00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.240
<v Speaker 1>night of Andrew's kidnapping and again on the night that

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00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.759
<v Speaker 1>Anne Molenta was shot. On that second night, she claimed

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00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan gave her a black handgun, one that matched the

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00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.840
<v Speaker 1>one that was later found, and asked her to clean

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<v Speaker 1>it and keep it for him.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay here, I thought she was maybe giving an alibi,

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00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.480
<v Speaker 2>but not really no, okay now.

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00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.039
<v Speaker 1>She further stated that both brothers had visited her on

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<v Speaker 1>the day of the massacre as well, leaving around nine pm,

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00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.960
<v Speaker 1>with Jonathan calling her around three am that night. With

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00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.920
<v Speaker 1>this whole sequence of events, it lines up perfectly with

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00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:25.759
<v Speaker 1>the timing of the murders and everything that occurred. Reginald's girlfriend,

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00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:30.440
<v Speaker 1>Stephanie Donnelly, also testified, stating she was unaware of either

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00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.279
<v Speaker 1>brother having a job, yet she observed them carrying large

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00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.480
<v Speaker 1>amounts of money throughout December. She also confirmed that Reginald

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00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:42.039
<v Speaker 1>Bought brought several stolen items into her home which were

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00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:47.119
<v Speaker 1>later identified as belonging to victims. Having presented nearly a

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00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:52.000
<v Speaker 1>thousand pieces of evidence against the two brothers, the prosecution

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00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:57.279
<v Speaker 1>confidently rested their case in court no shity. This left

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<v Speaker 1>the two defense teams facing what seemed like an impossible

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<v Speaker 1>challenge if they were to somehow win this case. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>the only reason I kind of talked about some of

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00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.400
<v Speaker 1>the court proceedings already was just to show you some

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00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.799
<v Speaker 1>of the evidence that was against them. Right, So, before

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00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.519
<v Speaker 1>we dive too much more into the legal proceedings, I

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00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:18.920
<v Speaker 1>want to back up a little bit all these findings

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00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:25.000
<v Speaker 1>that led the investigation to this point. It took the

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00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.519
<v Speaker 1>investigators a moment and they thought, you know what, what

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00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.519
<v Speaker 1>if we look into Reginald and Jonathan's background, see if

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00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:37.440
<v Speaker 1>we can understand why these two did such a horrific act.

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00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.559
<v Speaker 1>Both brothers were born in Dodge City, Kansas, already possessed

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00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.160
<v Speaker 1>with extensive criminal history by the time of this massacre,

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00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.559
<v Speaker 1>and folded. Their mother. Janice later painted a grim picture

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00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:53.480
<v Speaker 1>of their childhood, describing it as utterly quote lacking love

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00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:54.440
<v Speaker 1>or warmth.

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00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:58.240
<v Speaker 2>That's their mom saying this, yes, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Their home life was plagued by constant brutal arguments between

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00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.480
<v Speaker 1>their parents, with their father frequently physically abusing Janie. At

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00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.519
<v Speaker 1>one point, Janie herself snapped, beating their father with a

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00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.279
<v Speaker 1>baseball bat in front of their children.

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<v Speaker 2>Dang.

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00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.119
<v Speaker 1>They had two sisters, A younger one tragically died from

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00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.160
<v Speaker 1>leukemia at just three years old. Oh my gosh, while

348
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.839
<v Speaker 1>another older sister later revealed that she had been sexually

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00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.559
<v Speaker 1>abused by their father. When their parents finally divorced, their

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00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.319
<v Speaker 1>father completely abandoned and disowned all of his children.

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00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, that does not sound great.

352
00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:35.839
<v Speaker 1>No, it's not the most functional of homes, that's for sure.

353
00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:35.960
<v Speaker 2>No.

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<v Speaker 1>According to their older sister, their mother's new boyfriend frequently

355
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.440
<v Speaker 1>abused both Reginald and Jonathan. Janice would later remarry, but

356
00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.359
<v Speaker 1>her second husband proved just as violent as her first,

357
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.359
<v Speaker 1>even once holding a gun to her head and threatening

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00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:55.079
<v Speaker 1>to kill her. Reginald and Jonathan both often found themselves

359
00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.240
<v Speaker 1>sent to stay at their maternal grandmother's house, but she

360
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:03.359
<v Speaker 1>was similarly volatile, frequently yelling and screaming at them. Janis

361
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.400
<v Speaker 1>herself wasn't much better in how she treated her own children,

362
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.880
<v Speaker 1>often physically punishing them with electrical chords or other improvised weapons.

363
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:18.480
<v Speaker 1>This constant exposure to violence and trauma severely impacted both boys.

364
00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.839
<v Speaker 1>In school, they consistently struggled academically and frequently got into

365
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.920
<v Speaker 1>violent altercations, forcing them to move to eight different schools

366
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.640
<v Speaker 1>by the time they reached the eighth grade. That's a

367
00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.119
<v Speaker 1>rate of one school a year. It was also suggested

368
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.039
<v Speaker 1>that Reginald, as the older brother, was somewhat protective of Jonathan,

369
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.200
<v Speaker 1>sometimes taking the blame for his younger brother's misdeeds to

370
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:45.240
<v Speaker 1>spare him any of the punishments. Psychologist Thomas Reid later

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00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:49.480
<v Speaker 1>detailed Reginald's early introduction to substance abuse. He was exposed

372
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.519
<v Speaker 1>to drugs and alcohol at the tender age of six,

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<v Speaker 1>and was drinking heavy liquor by the time he was

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<v Speaker 1>eleven years old. Reginald ultimately dropped out of high school

375
00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:03.079
<v Speaker 1>in ninth grade after attacking another student, narrowly avoiding yet

376
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.519
<v Speaker 1>another expulsion. Around the same time, Jonathan tragically attempted to

377
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:12.319
<v Speaker 1>take his own life by drinking anti freeze.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I mean, I'm just sitting back wide eyed here.

379
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.559
<v Speaker 1>It's a lot to absorb, Yeah, especially for two kids

380
00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:22.119
<v Speaker 1>who are so young.

381
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, so he already had a drinking problem at eleven, basically,

382
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:34.200
<v Speaker 2>that is correct, Okay, yeah, yeah, that I mean. I

383
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:37.799
<v Speaker 2>hate hearing these stories because it kind of like tugs

384
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.599
<v Speaker 2>at your heart strings a bit. But then it also

385
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.799
<v Speaker 2>is just like no excuse for what they did. So

386
00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>it's a bit tough. You know.

387
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.480
<v Speaker 1>It goes back to the saying two wrongs don't make

388
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:49.359
<v Speaker 1>it right. Just because you were wrong doesn't mean you

389
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.200
<v Speaker 1>can go and do wrong right. So I understand you

390
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.400
<v Speaker 1>are a victim at this point, but you go on

391
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:01.359
<v Speaker 1>to do bad things yourselves. That's you are victimizing others.

392
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.599
<v Speaker 2>Well things really yeah.

393
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.720
<v Speaker 1>Well I'm not saying specific things. I'm just using like

394
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.720
<v Speaker 1>general situations, right. Yeah, there's many cases that we cover

395
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.079
<v Speaker 1>where someone has a horrific upbringing and they go on

396
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:14.759
<v Speaker 1>to do horrific things or.

397
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Just the same things or something.

398
00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, it doesn't justify you went through shitty shit.

399
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.279
<v Speaker 1>You're a victim, and I feel horrible for that sort

400
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:27.799
<v Speaker 1>of stuff, but it doesn't excuse your actions to carry on. Now,

401
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.880
<v Speaker 1>this whole backstory of the brothers gives us some perspective

402
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.599
<v Speaker 1>on what you may have occurred and impacted their life.

403
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.200
<v Speaker 1>But they went on to do some you know, other

404
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:42.240
<v Speaker 1>criminal things before this massacre occurred. And while the majority

405
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:45.039
<v Speaker 1>of those brothers' criminal records were sealed as part of

406
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.400
<v Speaker 1>the trial. Some of Reginald's history is publicly accessible, and

407
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.680
<v Speaker 1>it reveals he served multiple prison stints from the age

408
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.720
<v Speaker 1>of eighteen onward, primarily for drug offenses and aggravated assault.

409
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.240
<v Speaker 1>In a chilling twist of fate, however, after being released

410
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.759
<v Speaker 1>from prison in March of two thousand, Reginald was arrested

411
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:09.440
<v Speaker 1>again in November for assault charges not only that, but

412
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:11.359
<v Speaker 1>also pro violations and drunk.

413
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.519
<v Speaker 2>Driving and yeah, clearly should have been held then.

414
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:22.960
<v Speaker 1>However, due to a critical paperwork error, he was inexplicably

415
00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:29.440
<v Speaker 1>released in December of the year two thousand. This catastrophic

416
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:33.200
<v Speaker 1>oversight meant he was free to begin his horrific crime

417
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:38.440
<v Speaker 1>spree just days after being released, when he should have

418
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:39.759
<v Speaker 1>remained incarcerated.

419
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit. Yeah, so this very I mean, maybe he

420
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:47.839
<v Speaker 2>would have done in a later date. I don't know,

421
00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.599
<v Speaker 2>but this could have been prevented. Some of these things

422
00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:52.119
<v Speaker 2>could have been prevented.

423
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.839
<v Speaker 1>It was a literal whoopsie by the system.

424
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, okay, yeah, it's not good. Holy shit, that's

425
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:00.359
<v Speaker 2>not good.

426
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.279
<v Speaker 1>Now let's get into the trial.

427
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.559
<v Speaker 2>You're just gonna drop that bomb and be like, okay,

428
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:09.880
<v Speaker 2>we're moving back here. Yeah, everyone just like pissed. I'm pissed,

429
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:11.559
<v Speaker 2>So what else do you want me to do?

430
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:12.440
<v Speaker 1>That's the case.

431
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:16.680
<v Speaker 2>I just don't understand that. I hope someone was held

432
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:19.400
<v Speaker 2>responsible for that, because you can't just have an oops

433
00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.960
<v Speaker 2>with that kind of shit and then someone is just

434
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:25.640
<v Speaker 2>going and murdering people. It's just not okay.

435
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.319
<v Speaker 1>I know it's not okay. Nicole's about to rage on

436
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.960
<v Speaker 1>me here, like I'm gonna get punched in the face

437
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:32.440
<v Speaker 1>of the thing.

438
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Ever, you make it seem like I'm abusive and I'm not.

439
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she's not abusive, definitely not. But I feel the anger.

440
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:44.319
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I have some anger. Sorry, I'm processing this.

441
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.279
<v Speaker 2>You process this last week, Well.

442
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.839
<v Speaker 1>Continue processing it. I'm going to talk about the trial, Okay,

443
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:57.160
<v Speaker 1>all right. So getting into the trial, Reginald and Jonathan

444
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Carr found themselves facing an overwhelming total of one hundred

445
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:07.160
<v Speaker 1>and thirteen criminal charges. This staggering list encompassed everything from

446
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.839
<v Speaker 1>capital murder to various forms of physical and sexual assault,

447
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.400
<v Speaker 1>also robbery, and even animal cruelty because remember in part one,

448
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.039
<v Speaker 1>they did kill the dog, Nikki right the dog. Their

449
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.400
<v Speaker 1>case was assigned to Judge Paul Clark, with District Attorney

450
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Nola Fulston leading the prosecution alongside her deputy Kim Parker.

451
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:34.880
<v Speaker 1>Reginald's defense was handled by Jay Greywall, an experienced former

452
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:39.240
<v Speaker 1>public defender, and Val Wakel, while his younger brother, Jonathan's

453
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:44.880
<v Speaker 1>legal representation came from Mark Manna and Ron Evans. Now. Immediately,

454
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:47.759
<v Speaker 1>the defense teams attempted to have the trials for the

455
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:53.720
<v Speaker 1>two brothers separated into two separate trials. Their reasoning straightforward.

456
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:56.160
<v Speaker 1>I guess you can call it that, since both legal

457
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.920
<v Speaker 1>teams planned to blame the other brother, their clients would

458
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:05.599
<v Speaker 1>effectively be fighting two opposing forces in the courtroom. However,

459
00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:09.759
<v Speaker 1>Judge Clark quickly denied this request. He explained that the

460
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:13.480
<v Speaker 1>trial was projected to last two months and involved roughly

461
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:18.160
<v Speaker 1>seventy witnesses, making it far too expensive to conduct twice over.

462
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, good for them, good for him deciding that yeah.

463
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:25.160
<v Speaker 1>He also noted it was standard practice for co defendants

464
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:26.559
<v Speaker 1>to be tried together.

465
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay now.

466
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:30.480
<v Speaker 1>The defense also pushed to have the trial moved out

467
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.559
<v Speaker 1>of Sedwick County. They presented a poll indicating that a

468
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.640
<v Speaker 1>significant seventy four percent of local residents already believed that

469
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.160
<v Speaker 1>the car brothers were guilty arguing that a fair trial

470
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:47.519
<v Speaker 1>in Wichita would be impossible. This motion was also rejected,

471
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:51.039
<v Speaker 1>with Judge Clark stating that no trial had been moved

472
00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:53.200
<v Speaker 1>out of the county in forty years and he wasn't

473
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:54.240
<v Speaker 1>about to make an exception.

474
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow, this guy means business, he does. I like it.

475
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.599
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan's legal team even tried to have him declared unfit

476
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.440
<v Speaker 1>to stand trial, but Judge Clark ruled him competent after

477
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:11.079
<v Speaker 1>reviewing reports from two mental health experts, okay, shutting him

478
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:11.920
<v Speaker 1>down once more.

479
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Done so, With the.

480
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Trial date firmly set, both prosecution and defense meticulously questioned

481
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:23.039
<v Speaker 1>potential jurors. They systematically excluded individuals based on their views

482
00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:26.640
<v Speaker 1>regarding the death penalty, anyone too familiar with the intricate

483
00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:30.720
<v Speaker 1>details of the case, or those who even had a

484
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.200
<v Speaker 1>vague connection with any of the victims right now. In

485
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.720
<v Speaker 1>the end, the jury was assembled, consisting of seven men

486
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:42.680
<v Speaker 1>and five women, two black individuals and ten white individuals,

487
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.960
<v Speaker 1>drawn from diverse backgrounds, ready to hear the horrific details

488
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.880
<v Speaker 1>of the witch to horror. Now, I know race doesn't

489
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 1>mean anything, However, it actually was brought up in this situation.

490
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:57.480
<v Speaker 1>I'll cover it later on having a diverse jury was

491
00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.119
<v Speaker 1>certainly important as to rule out print.

492
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.039
<v Speaker 2>It is, m okay, so honestly that would be like,

493
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:06.440
<v Speaker 2>this would be a case that I'd want to be

494
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:10.079
<v Speaker 2>on the jury. Yeah, I mean it would be horrible.

495
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:11.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if I could handle it.

496
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:14.599
<v Speaker 2>It would be so horrible, but it would it would

497
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>be kind of, I guess, like fascinating, you know.

498
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:22.200
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Way, I've got the second sentence that I'm going

499
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.200
<v Speaker 1>to read. Here, we'll tell you exactly why I don't

500
00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:27.680
<v Speaker 1>think i'd be able to be in on this jury. Okay,

501
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.759
<v Speaker 1>So the first sentence goes like this. When the trial

502
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.799
<v Speaker 1>finally commenced on October second, two thousand and two, nearly

503
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.559
<v Speaker 1>two years after the initial arrest, much of the witness

504
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:40.480
<v Speaker 1>testimonies proved profoundly disturbing. And here is why I don't

505
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:41.720
<v Speaker 1>know if I would ever be able to be on

506
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>this jury. None of them were more harrowing than the

507
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:50.359
<v Speaker 1>accounts given by Holly. In graphic, agonizing details, she recounted

508
00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:56.119
<v Speaker 1>every assault, robbery, and murder, clearly identifying Reginald as the

509
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.200
<v Speaker 1>taller gunman responsible for much of the horror. I don't

510
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.359
<v Speaker 1>don't think I could sit there and listen to Hally

511
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.240
<v Speaker 1>describe what she went through out breaking the fuck down.

512
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, because you are probably expected just to sit

513
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.319
<v Speaker 2>there and listen and not really show any emotion or

514
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>like on your face, like you know, just kind of

515
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:18.440
<v Speaker 2>indifferent or whatever.

516
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, obviously human people do cry, people do

517
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.599
<v Speaker 1>leave the courtroom at times, but they do need to

518
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:26.799
<v Speaker 1>like go through what was said. You need to read it,

519
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.279
<v Speaker 1>you need to hear it, you need to watch those

520
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:31.279
<v Speaker 1>sort of things. If you need to break, I mean, yeah,

521
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:33.839
<v Speaker 1>people break, they do that, but.

522
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.119
<v Speaker 2>But I mean to Golly was the one that had

523
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.359
<v Speaker 2>to go through it, right, and she's so strong and

524
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:43.240
<v Speaker 2>being up there saying all of this to bring these

525
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:47.440
<v Speaker 2>guys to justice. Oh, I know what I mean. If

526
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.799
<v Speaker 2>she can do that, you can probably sit on the jury.

527
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:52.839
<v Speaker 1>But even like secondhands, I know it would be it

528
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:55.559
<v Speaker 1>would be horrible. It would shatter me. Yeah, I mean,

529
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:57.599
<v Speaker 1>if like, if I was on the jury, I'd fucking

530
00:29:57.640 --> 00:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>do it.

531
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:01.400
<v Speaker 2>But it would yeah, And honestly, yeah, that could actually

532
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:04.039
<v Speaker 2>affect your life too. I guess being on the jury,

533
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>if you're going through having to listen to something just

534
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:07.880
<v Speaker 2>so horrible.

535
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, I'm sure it does affect many of these people

536
00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.039
<v Speaker 1>who are on traumphic cases in.

537
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:13.119
<v Speaker 2>In a trauma way for sure.

538
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now. Sedgwick County Corner Mary Dudley testified about the

539
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:22.519
<v Speaker 1>various wounds inflicted upon Holly's four friends. She explained that

540
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.079
<v Speaker 1>Heather and Aaron had been shot with a gun pressed

541
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.000
<v Speaker 1>directly against the back of their heads, while Brad and

542
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Jason were shot from slightly greater distances. Corner Dudley meticulously

543
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.920
<v Speaker 1>detailed other injuries on the victims as well, emphasizing evidence

544
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:39.039
<v Speaker 1>that showed Heather had been sexually assaulted and that all

545
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:44.359
<v Speaker 1>three men had been beaten severely throughout the night. Jonathan's lawyer,

546
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:48.079
<v Speaker 1>Mark Mann, attempted to get her to concede that the

547
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:53.079
<v Speaker 1>shooting distances and lack of a pause in Holly's account

548
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.400
<v Speaker 1>implied a single person was responsible for the killings, thereby

549
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:02.400
<v Speaker 1>suggesting Reginald was the sole killer, but based purely on

550
00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:06.640
<v Speaker 1>the forensic evidence, doctor Dudley couldn't confirm one way or

551
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:11.039
<v Speaker 1>the other. Another witness, doctor Scott Porter, was called to

552
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.359
<v Speaker 1>explain the extent of Anne's injuries, particularly how one of

553
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:18.359
<v Speaker 1>the bullets had severed her spinal cord, leaving her partially

554
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.559
<v Speaker 1>paralyzed before she had passed away. During his testimony, he

555
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:27.039
<v Speaker 1>used a life sized anatomical model to visually demonstrate the

556
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:30.799
<v Speaker 1>trajectory of the bullet that entered her body. To make

557
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:33.599
<v Speaker 1>his point clear to the jury, he inserted a metal

558
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:36.759
<v Speaker 1>rod into the model, following the path that the bullet

559
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:40.160
<v Speaker 1>would have taken from the entry wound through to the

560
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:44.480
<v Speaker 1>damage in her chest and spine. This vivid and physical

561
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:48.440
<v Speaker 1>representation of the internal damage, combined with the clinical details

562
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.480
<v Speaker 1>of her suffering, was so graphic and intense that one

563
00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:56.720
<v Speaker 1>of the jurors actually fainted in the courtroom. Oh seriously

564
00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:59.720
<v Speaker 1>so going along, how it can be tough for jury

565
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:06.000
<v Speaker 1>members totally now. Andrew Shribber, the only other survivor besides Hawlly,

566
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.519
<v Speaker 1>delivered powerful testimony about his own kidnapping and robbery, as well,

567
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:14.920
<v Speaker 1>identifying Reginald as one of his two captors. However, like

568
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.960
<v Speaker 1>other witnesses, he couldn't directly identify Jonathan. Under cross examination,

569
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Andrew admitted he had been unable to pick either one

570
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 1>of the brothers out of a photo lineup shortly after

571
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:33.720
<v Speaker 1>their arrests. Beyond the gripping testimonies, hundreds of pieces of

572
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.960
<v Speaker 1>physical evidence were used to directly link the two brothers

573
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.440
<v Speaker 1>to the murders. As we discussed already, this included a

574
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.359
<v Speaker 1>wive ray of stolen belongings from the Birchwood Drive apartment.

575
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:47.039
<v Speaker 1>You know, TV clothing, credit cards found in both homes.

576
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:49.839
<v Speaker 1>One of the most compelling the diamond engagement ring taking

577
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.359
<v Speaker 1>from the home. It was discovered in Jonathan's pocket. Right.

578
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.000
<v Speaker 1>The prosecution even located a stolen watch of Andrew at

579
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.880
<v Speaker 1>the home of one of the brothers. Forensic investigator Gary

580
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Miller testified about the shoe print and how it matched

581
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:05.759
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan's shoe exactly. He also meticulously explained how the gun

582
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.559
<v Speaker 1>discovered me the highway could be directly tied to all

583
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:12.039
<v Speaker 1>three of these separate incidents, though he concluded the gun

584
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.519
<v Speaker 1>itself couldn't be linked directly to the car brothers because

585
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.400
<v Speaker 1>it was found in the field, not registered. It was

586
00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 1>only on their It wasn't on their persons, right, Okay,

587
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.079
<v Speaker 1>So it was only through witness accounts and circumstantial evidence

588
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.039
<v Speaker 1>that they could say this gun was theirs. Because we

589
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.440
<v Speaker 1>have people like Holly saying that's the gun. We have

590
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:33.720
<v Speaker 1>people like Andrew saying that's the gun. We have people

591
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:36.319
<v Speaker 1>like the girlfriend saying that's the gun they made me clean,

592
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.880
<v Speaker 1>but there's no way of actually saying it is in

593
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.279
<v Speaker 1>fact belonging to them. Okay, so it is only technically circumstantial.

594
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:44.400
<v Speaker 2>That is kind of tough.

595
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Now. This list of things, of course, goes on much further.

596
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Having presented nearly a thousand piece of evidence pieces of

597
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:56.000
<v Speaker 1>evidence against the brothers, the prosecution rested its case, saying

598
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:59.640
<v Speaker 1>it was clear they did this. This left the two

599
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:05.160
<v Speaker 1>defense teams facing an almost insurmountable challenge. Let's put it

600
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 1>that way. Jonathan's lawyer's primary piece of evidence was an

601
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Amtrak ticket dated for the day of the two murders.

602
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.360
<v Speaker 1>He claimed that Jonathan had intended to use it but

603
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.719
<v Speaker 1>got lost leaving Wichita that night. Reginald's team wanted to

604
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:26.519
<v Speaker 1>introduce testimony that his brother had supposedly told him he'd

605
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:30.559
<v Speaker 1>been with a man who was quote tripping and shooting people,

606
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.159
<v Speaker 1>and that he'd moved stolen goods to Stephanie's apartment to

607
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:40.119
<v Speaker 1>assist his brother. However, this purported evidence was ruled inadmissible

608
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:44.559
<v Speaker 1>as hearsay and was quickly dismissed. In all honesty, I

609
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:49.800
<v Speaker 1>don't even really understand it. Fully, it seems very weasley

610
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.519
<v Speaker 1>and like minimal and just trying to point blame and

611
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.000
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't fully make sense.

612
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Their grasp and I feel.

613
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:58.079
<v Speaker 1>Rasping, that's the best way to put it, because.

614
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they don't have a They don't have enough to

615
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.159
<v Speaker 2>defend these people really right now, So they're just making

616
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:04.679
<v Speaker 2>hit up.

617
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Maybe they don't have enough, they don't have anything.

618
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Basically, they're trying to do their job, but they can't.

619
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:14.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So now, bizarrely, they even replayed Holly's police interview

620
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.760
<v Speaker 1>for the jury. This is the defense. They're playing Holly's

621
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.760
<v Speaker 1>police interview for the jury. This, though, only serve to

622
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:26.519
<v Speaker 1>underscore the brutality that she had endured, causing some jurors,

623
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.239
<v Speaker 1>even Holly herself to leave the courtroom because they found

624
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:33.360
<v Speaker 1>it too distressing to watch. The defense had seemingly hoped

625
00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:37.599
<v Speaker 1>that Holly's momentary vagueness in identifying Reginald in the video

626
00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:41.440
<v Speaker 1>footage would somehow aid their case. But that was just

627
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:42.599
<v Speaker 1>a complete.

628
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Mistakes, no kidding.

629
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Their idea is like, see she wasn't sure for a

630
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.400
<v Speaker 1>second there, That's basically what their idea was. But it

631
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:53.280
<v Speaker 1>was like, no, she's doubled for a second, cool.

632
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:56.119
<v Speaker 2>That is, that's kind of dumb.

633
00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, as you said, grasping, yeah, yeah. Now, during their

634
00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:04.760
<v Speaker 1>closing statements, both defense teams predictably shifted blame onto the

635
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.519
<v Speaker 1>other brother, each claiming their own client had done nothing

636
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.920
<v Speaker 1>to do with the horrific crimes, and Jonathan's team focused

637
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.719
<v Speaker 1>on the various identifications of Reginald, while Reginald's team highlighted

638
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan's DNA being strongly linked to the crimes. It was

639
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:19.719
<v Speaker 1>a back and forth he did it, he did it,

640
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.480
<v Speaker 1>not me, not me, I'm innocent, he's yeah.

641
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:24.800
<v Speaker 2>He just really quick here, Like, are the brothers on

642
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 2>board for this or is it just kind of their defense.

643
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:30.559
<v Speaker 1>It's just the defense saying like, this is what we're

644
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.880
<v Speaker 1>going to do. It's the defense pointing back and forth.

645
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, of course the brothers are being questioned. They're

646
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.320
<v Speaker 1>going with their defense. I mean they're trying to well, yeah,

647
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.719
<v Speaker 1>to not go to prison for life or potentially even

648
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:43.719
<v Speaker 1>face the death penalty, right, I.

649
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Guess, But that just also seems kind of bad, you

650
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:48.920
<v Speaker 2>know that they're just like turning on each other, but

651
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:50.840
<v Speaker 2>they're kind of forced to in a way.

652
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.159
<v Speaker 1>I guess definitely. Now it was on November fourth in

653
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:56.760
<v Speaker 1>the year two thousand and two, when the jury delivered

654
00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:02.239
<v Speaker 1>its verdict after a long and emotional, a grueling trial,

655
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:08.440
<v Speaker 1>both Reginald and Jonathan Carr were found guilty on nearly

656
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:09.960
<v Speaker 1>all counts.

657
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.639
<v Speaker 2>Can you not pause like that? In that tiny second,

658
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I was just like.

659
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh boy, that's what I'm trying to build the tension

660
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:21.599
<v Speaker 1>I know, but yeah, it worked good. I'm glad it

661
00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:24.840
<v Speaker 1>worked now. They were found guilty on nearly all counts,

662
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:31.199
<v Speaker 1>including the most serious capital murder charges. The only charges

663
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:35.039
<v Speaker 1>that didn't stick stick were related to Andrew Shibber's kidnapping

664
00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.800
<v Speaker 1>and robbery. Jonathan was acquitted of these specific counts due

665
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.880
<v Speaker 1>to insufficient evidence directly linking him to that particular incident.

666
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.280
<v Speaker 1>As they heard the verdicts read aloud in that courtroom,

667
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.880
<v Speaker 1>neither brother showed any emotion. Reginald was even shackled in

668
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 1>the courtroom that day due to threats he made to

669
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:55.880
<v Speaker 1>deputies during the trial.

670
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh what a winner.

671
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:02.639
<v Speaker 1>While being led from the courtroom, reportedly stared intently at

672
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:08.760
<v Speaker 1>the victims' families while Jonathan proposed, what what really, that's

673
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.840
<v Speaker 1>freaking arrogant. He just stared down victims' families.

674
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 2>Ew that is actually really beyond disrespectful definitely.

675
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:21.960
<v Speaker 1>And Jonathan reportedly avoided eye contact. So you have one

676
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.719
<v Speaker 1>staring him down, one just avoiding eye contact at all.

677
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay now.

678
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:30.199
<v Speaker 1>The very next morning, the jury faced the somber task

679
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:35.599
<v Speaker 1>of deciding the brothers fate their sentence life in prison

680
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:42.360
<v Speaker 1>or death by execution. During the sentence hearing, various witnesses

681
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.719
<v Speaker 1>and experts presented statements to help guide the jury and

682
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:50.360
<v Speaker 1>their difficult decision. Several psychologists testified about the profound damage

683
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:53.559
<v Speaker 1>of their childhoods filled with violence and abuse, and how

684
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.920
<v Speaker 1>it had infected their lives and afflicted their growing up

685
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:02.440
<v Speaker 1>and who they became. Forensic psychologist Mark Cunningham, for example,

686
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:07.199
<v Speaker 1>claimed their upbringing left both Jonathan and Reginald emotionally detached

687
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.840
<v Speaker 1>and lacking empathy, making them capable of such brutal acts.

688
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Yet under cross examination by the prosecution, Cunningham stated that

689
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:20.840
<v Speaker 1>the brothers quote unquestionably understood the difference between right and wrong,

690
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:26.679
<v Speaker 1>but simply just didn't care. Another expert even presented evidence

691
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 1>suggesting both brothers had sustained brain damage in their temporal lobes.

692
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.920
<v Speaker 1>This type of injury has been linked in other cases

693
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:38.079
<v Speaker 1>to lack of impulse control and morality, though its precise

694
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 1>role in this particular case remains unclear. While the two

695
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 1>defense teams pleaded with the jury to give their clients

696
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:50.960
<v Speaker 1>life sentences, Prosecutor Fulston argued passionately against mercy. She urged

697
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:55.559
<v Speaker 1>them quote not to show the brothers mercy simply because

698
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:59.239
<v Speaker 1>they had troubled upbringings, asserting you know there was no

699
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:03.559
<v Speaker 1>excuse basically for their actions. They deserve the death sentence.

700
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:09.239
<v Speaker 1>Emotional testimonies also came from those personally connected to the brothers.

701
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:13.320
<v Speaker 1>Reginald's ex wife, who he had kids with, spoke at

702
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.320
<v Speaker 1>the hearing. One even read out a heartbreaking letter from

703
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:19.719
<v Speaker 1>his seven year old son expressing his love and begging

704
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:24.159
<v Speaker 1>his father to come home. An ex coworker of Jonathan's

705
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:27.960
<v Speaker 1>also testified, recalling that he had always been kind, polite,

706
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.119
<v Speaker 1>and generous when she worked with him. But the most

707
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:35.599
<v Speaker 1>impactful statement came from the survivors. Both Andrew and Hawlly

708
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:41.199
<v Speaker 1>delivered powerful victim impact statements to the jury. Hally's words

709
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:45.639
<v Speaker 1>were particularly poignant. Quote, every day there is a memory

710
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.079
<v Speaker 1>or a scar that reminds me of that night I

711
00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:52.280
<v Speaker 1>wake up in sweats from my nightmares. I pace at

712
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.519
<v Speaker 1>night because of the noises that I think are people

713
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.039
<v Speaker 1>breaking into my house. And every morning I carefully blow

714
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.360
<v Speaker 1>dry my hair to c up that spot that can

715
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:05.360
<v Speaker 1>no longer grow hair. She went on to describe her

716
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:09.480
<v Speaker 1>daily fears of being assaulted again, adding quote, the sentence

717
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:12.480
<v Speaker 1>imposed on them will be a much kinder sentence than

718
00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:17.719
<v Speaker 1>they imposed on me, my friends and family. After several

719
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:21.679
<v Speaker 1>hours of deliberation, the jury returned with its recommendation for

720
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:27.840
<v Speaker 1>Reginald and Jonathan sentence. Both should receive the death sentence

721
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:32.119
<v Speaker 1>for their crimes. Oh okay, did you not like that? Pause?

722
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I gave it a little extra I kind of thought

723
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:36.119
<v Speaker 2>that was the way it was going to go. But

724
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I just have to say when I was like saying,

725
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:41.800
<v Speaker 2>how I would want to be, you know, a juror

726
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>on this, on something like this, having to decide that

727
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.239
<v Speaker 2>like to have them live or not. Yeah, that is

728
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:50.039
<v Speaker 2>pretty tough.

729
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Hey, yeah, that's in your hands.

730
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:57.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean they did the crimes, so but I

731
00:41:57.559 --> 00:41:59.719
<v Speaker 2>feel like, yeah, having to make that decision would be

732
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:01.679
<v Speaker 2>would affect you?

733
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:02.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

734
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:05.159
<v Speaker 2>Would yeah?

735
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:10.360
<v Speaker 1>Now, before they were formally sentenced to this, Judge Clark

736
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:14.639
<v Speaker 1>offered the defendants a chance to make a statement. Oh,

737
00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:20.000
<v Speaker 1>both declined, Uh, I would never wanting someone else.

738
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Well though I was going to call them something, but

739
00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:23.599
<v Speaker 2>I just held it back.

740
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:28.719
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, moving on. Judge Clark then officially sentenced

741
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.199
<v Speaker 1>them both to death. Once again, neither brother displayed any

742
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:35.480
<v Speaker 1>reaction or emotion. In addition to the death penalty, the

743
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:39.159
<v Speaker 1>brothers received life sentences for the murder of Anne Wallenta

744
00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:44.320
<v Speaker 1>with no possibility of parole, plus roughly additional forty years

745
00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:51.480
<v Speaker 1>each for their other convictions. Outside the courtroom, victims, family members, friends,

746
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 1>they all embraced each other, along with the prosecutors and

747
00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:59.880
<v Speaker 1>crime scene investigators. While the families chose not to comment publicly.

748
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.639
<v Speaker 1>Prosecutor Kim Parker, visibly emotional at the time as she

749
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:09.000
<v Speaker 1>hugged Holly, simply stated, quote, justice has been served and

750
00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:13.559
<v Speaker 1>it is long awaited for the families, the victims, and

751
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:17.519
<v Speaker 1>the two survivors. The profound ordeal of the Wichita horror

752
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.480
<v Speaker 1>was far from over even after the verdict and sentencing

753
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:25.639
<v Speaker 1>was done see In Kansas, a death sentence automatically initiates

754
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:33.159
<v Speaker 1>an appeal process no which can stretch out over many years. Notably,

755
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:36.159
<v Speaker 1>since the state had reinstated the death penalty. In nineteen

756
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.719
<v Speaker 1>ninety four, every single death sentence handed down had been

757
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:45.880
<v Speaker 1>overturned by Kansas's highest court, and no execution had actually

758
00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:51.440
<v Speaker 1>been carried out since nineteen sixty five. This precedent hinted

759
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:54.960
<v Speaker 1>at a very long, challenging legal battle ahead of the

760
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.559
<v Speaker 1>car brothers case, adding more layers of complexity. In December

761
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:01.800
<v Speaker 1>of two thirds thou and four, the Kansas Supreme Court

762
00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:05.800
<v Speaker 1>made a significant move, ruling to overturn the state's death

763
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:11.800
<v Speaker 1>penalty law entirely. However, the Kansas Attorney General quickly appealed

764
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.199
<v Speaker 1>this decision to the U. S Supreme Court, which subsequently

765
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:18.960
<v Speaker 1>stepped in and upheld the constitutionality of the death penalty

766
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:23.119
<v Speaker 1>within the state. Then, in twenty fourteen, the Kansas Supreme

767
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.920
<v Speaker 1>Court once again intervened, overturning Reginald and Jonathan's death sentences.

768
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Their reasoning this time was that the brother's Eighth Amendment rights,

769
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:35.159
<v Speaker 1>which protect against cruel and unusual punishment, had been violated

770
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:38.760
<v Speaker 1>when the original trial judge refused to grant them separate

771
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:44.679
<v Speaker 1>sentencing hearings. The court believed that each brother deserved individual hearings,

772
00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:48.119
<v Speaker 1>considering the possibility that one might warrant more leniency than

773
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:51.079
<v Speaker 1>the other based on the difference of evidence and level

774
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 1>of culpability.

775
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:58.119
<v Speaker 2>This is annoying me, this part. It should well, I

776
00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:02.079
<v Speaker 2>really liked that one judge. She was just like nobs. Yeah,

777
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:07.000
<v Speaker 2>and because that's exactly what those people deserved. Nobs like

778
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 2>they didn't deserve these chances or whatever, is what I mean.

779
00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:11.159
<v Speaker 2>The judge was right.

780
00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:14.440
<v Speaker 1>I agree, But unfortunately there's more to the legal system

781
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:18.400
<v Speaker 1>than just one presiding judge. And so now we're having

782
00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:20.679
<v Speaker 1>to deal with that in the subsequent following years.

783
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:23.800
<v Speaker 2>And he was trying to save some money too, you know,

784
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:25.119
<v Speaker 2>taxpayer money.

785
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, in another turn, the US Supreme Court stepped

786
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Speaker 1>in once again in two thousand and six, reversing that

787
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:36.039
<v Speaker 1>decision of you know, saying that they didn't have the

788
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.800
<v Speaker 1>right trial and that you know, overturning their sentencing. This time,

789
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:42.519
<v Speaker 1>they asserted that they did not violate the brothers' rights,

790
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:50.119
<v Speaker 1>thereby reinstating their death sentences. Commenting on this convoluted legal

791
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:54.239
<v Speaker 1>back and forth, prosecutor Nola Falston stated, quote, no one

792
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.679
<v Speaker 1>is entitled to a perfect trial, only a fair one.

793
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:01.039
<v Speaker 1>But this came close to being a perfect trial in

794
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.480
<v Speaker 1>terms of legal issues and being resolved and how we

795
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:09.400
<v Speaker 1>went by trying went about trying this case. End quote

796
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:14.280
<v Speaker 1>hashtag Mike drop. No one is entitled to a perfect trial,

797
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:16.960
<v Speaker 1>only a fair one, but this came close to being

798
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:18.880
<v Speaker 1>a perfect trial. Holy shit.

799
00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like the amount of back and forth right now

800
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:26.400
<v Speaker 2>that's happening. Like they don't deserve this. They got their trial.

801
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:30.440
<v Speaker 2>They freaking you know, were sentenced to this done.

802
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:34.079
<v Speaker 1>Like, move on, I agree. Now. While on death row

803
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:38.840
<v Speaker 1>at the Eldorado Correctional Facility, both brothers secured new legal teams.

804
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.400
<v Speaker 1>They attempted to leverage this history of legal chaos to

805
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:46.960
<v Speaker 1>be granted new resentencing hearings. Both new defense teams heavily

806
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:51.400
<v Speaker 1>criticized their original trial lawyers, deeming them inadequate. They also

807
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:54.320
<v Speaker 1>tried to claim that the jury, which was predominantly white,

808
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:57.639
<v Speaker 1>had been racially biased against them, which is why I

809
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:01.119
<v Speaker 1>said earlier it was important that it was you know,

810
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:05.480
<v Speaker 1>mixed and everything like that. Yes, So, their legal representatives

811
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:10.079
<v Speaker 1>even brought attention to an investigation into various police officers

812
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:13.559
<v Speaker 1>at the witch Taught Police Department, an inquiry that revealed

813
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.800
<v Speaker 1>several officers, including one who had worked on the car case,

814
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:21.719
<v Speaker 1>had been disciplined for exchanging racists, sexists, and homophobic texts

815
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:25.599
<v Speaker 1>and images. This was presumably an attempt to imply that

816
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:29.199
<v Speaker 1>the police had racially targeted the two brothers from the onset.

817
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Despite all these legal maneuvers and external controversies, the brothers

818
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:38.239
<v Speaker 1>themselves continued their pattern of shifting blame on to one another.

819
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan's legal team tried to claim that Reginald had sexually

820
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:45.360
<v Speaker 1>abused him and wielded significant power over him, forcing him

821
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.800
<v Speaker 1>to comply with his commands. Meanwhile, Reginald's team once again

822
00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:52.679
<v Speaker 1>tried to argue that almost all of the forensic evidence

823
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:58.280
<v Speaker 1>more strongly implicated Jonathan and not him. Ultimately, their request

824
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:03.360
<v Speaker 1>for resentencing, for whatever their reason they had, they were

825
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:09.400
<v Speaker 1>denied good. With their death sentences having been deemed constitutional

826
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.880
<v Speaker 1>by the Kansas Supreme Court and reaffirmed by the US

827
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court, Reginald and Jonathan Carr remain on death row,

828
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:20.480
<v Speaker 1>awaiting execution to this very day.

829
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.840
<v Speaker 2>They'll probably stay like that forever or some time or

830
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:31.000
<v Speaker 2>probably yeah. But I mean, for some reason, I just

831
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:32.960
<v Speaker 2>had this flash of you, like telling me they were

832
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:36.119
<v Speaker 2>out or something, and I would I would like burn

833
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.920
<v Speaker 2>this tiny home down, I would just be so angry.

834
00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:43.360
<v Speaker 1>No, I honestly, that was that was hard for me

835
00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:45.119
<v Speaker 1>to get through too. Like the reading of that, I

836
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:48.559
<v Speaker 1>hate that section. You might have even been able to

837
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:50.239
<v Speaker 1>hear it in my voice. I was just wanting to

838
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:52.599
<v Speaker 1>plow through that, get through that, because I hate the

839
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:55.119
<v Speaker 1>fact that they were able to fight the system, able

840
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:57.199
<v Speaker 1>to get these old turns and all this sort of

841
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:02.599
<v Speaker 1>oh waste that much people time, taxpayers, having victims, you know,

842
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:06.159
<v Speaker 1>resurgence of these memories and stuff. Whether they went in

843
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:08.800
<v Speaker 1>court or not, I don't know, but even still having

844
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.000
<v Speaker 1>this come up again is fuck. It pisses me off.

845
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:15.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's ridiculous, I mean, and it happens often.

846
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.079
<v Speaker 1>It really does, way too often.

847
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:18.519
<v Speaker 2>It's quite frustrating.

848
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:23.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, Now beyond the criminal proceedings, because fuck that,

849
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:28.199
<v Speaker 1>let's move on. The victims' families also pursued another form

850
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:32.280
<v Speaker 1>of justice. The victims' families, okay, they filed a wrongful

851
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:36.400
<v Speaker 1>death lawsuit against the state, arguing negligence stemmed from the

852
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.880
<v Speaker 1>critical paperwork and the mistake that led Reginald's reliefs from

853
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:43.880
<v Speaker 1>prison just days before the massacre when he should have

854
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:45.039
<v Speaker 1>remained incarcerated.

855
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, I mean fair enough.

856
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:50.079
<v Speaker 1>In two thousand and four, the judge hearing the case

857
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:54.599
<v Speaker 1>agreed that the state's actions had indeed failed the victims,

858
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:58.320
<v Speaker 1>and the jury subsequently awarded the families approximately half a

859
00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:01.960
<v Speaker 1>million dollars each. It was a small but significant measure

860
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.800
<v Speaker 1>of accountability for the devastating bureaucratic error.

861
00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:09.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I mean, yeah, like it's nice to get that

862
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:11.599
<v Speaker 2>money and stuff, but yes, it's a probably not even

863
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:16.760
<v Speaker 2>really about the money, and I don't like because that

864
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:19.599
<v Speaker 2>is nothing compared to them having their loved one around.

865
00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Right, So don't get me wrong. Half million dollars in

866
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:24.800
<v Speaker 1>your pocket, that's great, but that's a token for losing

867
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:25.400
<v Speaker 1>a loved one.

868
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:29.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel like it's more just about the principle too, right, Yeah.

869
00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:31.440
<v Speaker 1>One hundred percent, trying to ensure that due diligence is

870
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:33.880
<v Speaker 1>done moving forward and then it's not going to happen.

871
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:34.760
<v Speaker 2>To someone else totally.

872
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:39.599
<v Speaker 1>Now, even after many years of the unspeakable events of

873
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:43.239
<v Speaker 1>the Witchta Horror, the dark shadows of that week they

874
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:47.599
<v Speaker 1>do still linger, yet equally present in this remarkable resilience

875
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:52.079
<v Speaker 1>of those it's those people who survived. Now, Detective Rick

876
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Craig who was among the first officers to arrive at

877
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:58.800
<v Speaker 1>the snowy field the four victims were murdered. He later

878
00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:01.679
<v Speaker 1>shared with a reporter that he has remained close friends

879
00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:05.480
<v Speaker 1>with Holly ever since the incident. Aw and in a

880
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:11.000
<v Speaker 1>truly extraordinary turn of events, Holly herself eventually found love

881
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:15.280
<v Speaker 1>and were married. The only other survivor of the Craig

882
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:21.039
<v Speaker 1>Brothers crime spree, Andrew Schribber, seriously that baseball player who

883
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:22.400
<v Speaker 1>had been abducted and robbed.

884
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:25.519
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, I wasn't expecting that.

885
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they got together and they've got married.

886
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's like kind of nice. Actually yay.

887
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:33.599
<v Speaker 1>So with each other they forged new life and ultimately

888
00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:37.119
<v Speaker 1>moved away from Wichita. According to Detective Craig, he occasionally

889
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:40.320
<v Speaker 1>visits them with his family, though they mutually avoid discussing

890
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:42.679
<v Speaker 1>the traumatic events of that massacre.

891
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:44.119
<v Speaker 2>Huh.

892
00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:47.199
<v Speaker 1>To honor the other victims and ensure their memories endure,

893
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:51.119
<v Speaker 1>several scholarships were established. One, for example, was created at

894
00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:56.159
<v Speaker 1>Saint Thomas Aquinas Catholic School, where Heather Mueller had been

895
00:51:56.199 --> 00:52:00.320
<v Speaker 1>a Cherist teacher. Another was founded at Wichita State Unions

896
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:03.800
<v Speaker 1>in memory of Anne Malinta, who had worked there. As

897
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:07.960
<v Speaker 1>a dedicated librarian and was a talented cellist as well,

898
00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 1>known for introducting young African American students into classical music.

899
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.239
<v Speaker 1>To this day, the Witch toa Horror stands as one

900
00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:19.880
<v Speaker 1>of the most brutal and shocking true crime cases in

901
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Kansas history. It's left an undeniable mark on the city,

902
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:30.239
<v Speaker 1>simultaneously igniting a deep fear and inspiring and outpouring of

903
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:34.280
<v Speaker 1>compassion as well. And that is the story of the

904
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:35.079
<v Speaker 1>Witch to Horror.

905
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:41.360
<v Speaker 2>H Oh boy. Yeah, that one is just brutal, is

906
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:46.760
<v Speaker 2>it ever? There is so much just to kind of

907
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:51.639
<v Speaker 2>like reflect on, I guess, yeah. But the fact that

908
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:54.760
<v Speaker 2>those two fell in love when they kind of had

909
00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:59.760
<v Speaker 2>not similar experiences, but like they both have a lot

910
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:03.159
<v Speaker 2>of traumatic events that happened to them, and they can

911
00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:07.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of lean on each other. And you know, I

912
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:09.639
<v Speaker 2>was going to say they didn't experience it together, but

913
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:11.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, similarities, right.

914
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:16.159
<v Speaker 1>So they're both victims of the same monster, the same monster. Yeah.

915
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:18.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, of course we're not comparing what they went

916
00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:23.679
<v Speaker 1>through any anything, but when they have those incidents of

917
00:53:23.719 --> 00:53:26.000
<v Speaker 1>fearing those monsters, they can be there for each.

918
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:29.519
<v Speaker 2>Other, Yeah, and really kind of know what it feels

919
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:32.840
<v Speaker 2>like a little bit. Yeah, right, so that's I don't know,

920
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:36.000
<v Speaker 2>that's like incredible. I don't know. I wasn't expecting that

921
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:39.760
<v Speaker 2>at all. So huh.

922
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't really know what to say after this one.

923
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.880
<v Speaker 1>I got nothing. This case fucking pissed me off. I

924
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.519
<v Speaker 1>swore a lot in this one. Sorry for that, but

925
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:50.000
<v Speaker 1>it did.

926
00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I tried to hold my tongue because sometimes people

927
00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:55.199
<v Speaker 2>are like, you guys swear too much. But it's like,

928
00:53:55.320 --> 00:53:57.920
<v Speaker 2>holy shit, what are you supposed to say?

929
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I mean it, it's how we get out of motion.

930
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes too, we have people are doing the most horrendous

931
00:54:05.559 --> 00:54:09.880
<v Speaker 2>things to each other and you're just supposed to be like, okay, well.

932
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:11.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean sometimes you do say darn or I say

933
00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:15.000
<v Speaker 1>ding dang. Sometimes sometimes we try and tone it down

934
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:17.239
<v Speaker 1>a bit, but sometimes we can't. Sometimes we got to

935
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:17.800
<v Speaker 1>let it out.

936
00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sometimes you just do. It does help, Actually it does.

937
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's my new wine drinking. I just say the effort.

938
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.079
<v Speaker 1>You just just a screaming in the bathroom into a

939
00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:29.960
<v Speaker 1>pillow or something.

940
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:33.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, Okay, Well in that, no, I guess let's

941
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:35.400
<v Speaker 2>try to get some sleep.

942
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:38.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's go to bed. Well, thank you, for being here,

943
00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:40.719
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for sticking around for part two. Hopefully enjoyed

944
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:43.159
<v Speaker 1>the story. Nichole is actually going to be going on

945
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:44.719
<v Speaker 1>a bit of a trip here, so we're going to

946
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:48.960
<v Speaker 1>pre record an episode or two. So if it comes

947
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.480
<v Speaker 1>to us pre recording the Tuesday episode, we shout out, patrons,

948
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:55.800
<v Speaker 1>don't worry, it's just a pre recorded will shout you

949
00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:58.360
<v Speaker 1>out on the next actual live one when Nicole is

950
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:01.880
<v Speaker 1>actually back in town. Up on that. If Tuesday rolls around,

951
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:04.559
<v Speaker 1>you're like, I didn't get called out, it's because it's

952
00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.519
<v Speaker 1>pre recorded. Nicole's on vacation, not actually vacation, she's just

953
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:09.599
<v Speaker 1>working in another city. But I digress.

954
00:55:10.039 --> 00:55:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, and there could be a slight delay on that Tuesday,

955
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:16.159
<v Speaker 2>but we'll keep you posted on that for Yeah.

956
00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:20.280
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, Tuesday, it should be there. Tuesday. It might

957
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:23.199
<v Speaker 1>be different Tuesday, it might actually commote Wednesday. It might

958
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:27.599
<v Speaker 1>be pre recorded, it might not. It'll happen somehow, some way.

959
00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:30.880
<v Speaker 2>It'll be there, and we'll keep you posted on social

960
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:31.320
<v Speaker 2>We will.

961
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:33.920
<v Speaker 1>We will, don't you worry. So yeah, until next

962
00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:36.320
<v Speaker 2>Time, stay wicked