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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Joy Pulman, the

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executive editor over here at the Federalist.

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Speaker 2: Joining me today is my friend Amanda Bauk.

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Speaker 1: She is a pastor's wife and the author of the

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recently released book One Nation Under God, out from Post

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Hill Press. Now it's a devotional for wives and mothers,

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which is what she is and Amanda, welcome to the program.

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Speaker 2: Hi, thank you, Joe. I'm so happy to be here

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to talk with you about the book today. Thank you

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for having me. Now, what I really I think this

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is a really great time of the year to be

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releasing a book like this.

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Speaker 1: I think people are thinking about cozy, They're thinking about introspection.

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You know, we've got some great mysteries of the Christian Church.

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You're coming up with Christmas obviously at the top of

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the list, and so, you know, especially people who prepare

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for the for the Christmas season through the penitential season

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of advent. You know, it's often a wonderful thing to

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kind of add a devotional to your life, and that's

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what you know your book is about.

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Speaker 2: So first, can you just tell me, you.

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Speaker 1: Give me the basic what was your motivation for writing

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a book, especially for women, short devotionals, you know, focus,

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especially patriotic ones. And how did you you know, get

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through the process of writing it?

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Speaker 3: All?

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Speaker 4: Right, those are all excellent and somewhat big questions. I'll

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do my best to answer them in turn. So the

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book originated in twenty twenty one morning. I was after

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I did my morning devotionals, I was just doom scrolling

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through headlines and just despairing over all of the violence

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and the death toll and just everything just so negative

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and toxic that was happening in our world. And I

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just started crying, you know, and that I turned into

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a prayer to the Lord and just crying.

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Speaker 2: Out to him and just saying, Lord, what.

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Speaker 4: Do we do the face of all of this, this

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hatred and divisiveness and death and darkness? How do we

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even stand up against all of this? You know, especially

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when I'm just me? You know, what do I do?

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How can I help our country? Especially? And I'm very

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good at talking to God. I'm not always very good

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at listening.

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Speaker 2: To God.

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Speaker 4: Or waiting for us yes, or waiting for his response,

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and so, but that morning I was just so emotionally

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and spiritually, you know, and mentally depleted, I actually was

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still before the Lord for a change, and as I

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was sitting there, the response was very simple, and it

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was just one word, and it was pray. And so

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I really took that called a prayer very seriously. And

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so I was still interested in keeping tabs and things

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that were going on, but instead of doom scrolling, I

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used every headline I read as an invitation to pray

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over that situation and as a prompt to pray, you know,

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for specific people, for specific situations. And so I found

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through that exercise that the Lord reminded me how powerful

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prayer can be, and that intercessory prayer is so so necessary,

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and so I, you know, and so as I was

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going through this practice, I thought, what could happen if

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women who love this country and are you know, prayer

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warriors and are wanted to get deeper into God's word,

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a deeper in relationship with him.

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Speaker 2: What if they had something they could use to.

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Speaker 4: Do that, you know, and a tool that would equip

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them for that work and would encourage them to do

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that very important work of praying for our nation and

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its leaders and its people. And so that was basically

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the origin of the book. And so so in twenty

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twenty one, I was doing a read through of the Bible,

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a two year plan, and I just said to God,

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I said, you know, I know you have so much

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to say about this in your word as I'm reading through.

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Give me ice to see and help me see in

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your word things that happened, whether it happened in scripture

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or their specific verses that are applicable to the things

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we're wrestling with as a nation today. And so he

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was very faithful, you know, to my supplication to give

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me eyes to see. And so by the time I

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was done, I had a very long list of scriptures

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that I could use in a book like this, and

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so I was trying to decide how long it should be.

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And so of course, once I landed on forty, I

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had oh golly, over one hundred verses that I had curated,

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and so then the coaling process began. And so I

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finally got it down to forty. And like I said,

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I wanted to make sure I was pulling from all

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throughout scripture. And the one thing that was so interesting

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to me because I had the verses selected, but I

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also was very open to God showing me opportunities to

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speak to the hearts of women who'd be reading this

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book on subjects that I might not have necessarily considered,

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including initially. Can you give some examples, yes, So, one

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perfect example of that is when I was writing in

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January and the fires broke out in California and Palisades,

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and you know, here in Tennessee and Nashville, you know,

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we deal with a lot of tornadoes, and of course

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natural disasters just happened all over our country every single year,

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you know, the tornadoes, the flooding, the hurricanes, the earthquakes,

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the fires, and so in that moment, I just felt

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like that was something that I could speak into, and

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so I asked God to show me this word.

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Speaker 2: How how do we.

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Speaker 4: We find you in those situations and just give people

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and encouragement in that And you know, because I think

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it's easy when we see disasters, and especially if you're

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not really strong in your faith, to feel like it's

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a God forsaken thing. But just to know that, you know,

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even nature, unfortunately has been corrupted by sin, and that

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that's that's just our reality until Christ returns and you know,

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the new heavens and new Earth com into being. And

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so so how do we as Christians not only understand

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it but also minister to people who are dealing with

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like the after effects of a natural disaster and how

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can we best support them in that situation. So that's

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just one example, another example that I wasn't something I

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wasn't planning to write about. I've had a lot of

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health issues over the years, you know, really struggled with

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anometriosis and urine fibroids, and you know, in twenty eighteen,

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they thought I had a brain tumor.

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Speaker 2: It was the compos you know, I've had.

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Speaker 4: So many procedures issues at Greg and I, my husband,

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Greg and I used to laugh and call it like

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my annual health crisis.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Any year I did end up in

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the R was like a banner year.

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Speaker 4: And so I've really been through it with my health

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and so, you know, especially as I'm getting you know,

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now that I'm like firmly middle aged and I have

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young children, I really have just been committed to figuring

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out how I hate the word optimize, you know, because

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I feel like that's so health influencer trendy language, but

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it's true. You know, It's like I'm trying to figure

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out how to best nurture the body that I currently have,

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and I think a lot of women my age are

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definitely going through that as well. I'm just trying to

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figure out how we can be the best, that best, healthiest.

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Speaker 2: Version of ourselves, you know, for the benelement trations and constraints.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you know, primarily for the benefit of the people

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that we are called to serve, you know, whether it's

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our spouse or our children, or our church or or

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families whomever. And so you know, so this set me

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down this huge rabbit hole, you know, of all of

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this research about hormones and supplements and vitamin and mineral

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deficiencies and all of these things.

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Speaker 1: Journey, another health influencer races.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that space is just it's it's it's a hard space,

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you know, thankfully, it.

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Speaker 1: Strikes me about it's just people just must be desperate,

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you know, it must be really bad for a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people are the health issues. I mean

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that it's our national ortality rate is going down for

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the first time.

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Speaker 2: In the chronic diseases. You are just through the roof, yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, and yet we're more medicated, you know than ever before,

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and none of it's easy working, and so I'm just like,

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there's some cognitive dissonance going on here.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have sick care, not healthcare.

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Speaker 4: And so I'm grateful I have found a couple health

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practitioners online who are Christian. You know, I jokingly said,

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I'm much more likely to heed medical advice from someone

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who believes that we're fearfully and wonderfully made by a

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loving God than someone who believes that we either descended

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from apes or evolved from primordial ooze.

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Speaker 1: As well as you know, understands that men and women

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are different, you know, you know, scientific accuracy would be

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an important baseline.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and so yes, and so I have found.

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Speaker 1: Some of our devotionals I assume are you know, helping

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work through this issue with based on the scripture.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and so I wasn't planning to write any about

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any of that, but then just based on my own

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issues and just having so many conversations with other women,

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especially moms my age, just you know, wrestling with all

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of this health stuff and just trying to figure it out.

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You know, I really felt compelled to write about you know,

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our physical welp and just you know, the focusing on

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the fact that our body is a temple the Holy

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Spirit and that this is the only body we will

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ever have until it's resurrected and perfection and so and

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our nation needs strong, able bodied, healthy people, correct, you know.

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Speaker 2: And in this I mentioned like, we need.

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Speaker 4: You know, healthy strong like firefighters and policemen and military

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people and mothers.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and mind can't be a good mother if you're like.

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Speaker 4: Sick, No, that's what I said. I'm like, we need

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grandparents who have good, long lives so that they can

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influence many generations, you know, of their grandchildren and great grandchildren,

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great great grandchildren. And so I just really felt convicted

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to write about that, and so so I was very

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open to the Lord's leading and all of that, and

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you know, just asking him to show me if there

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were places that I needed to speak into that would

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really touch women's hearts, and that really do, even though

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it is a very individual concern, really has accumulative impact

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on our country as well.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful I would like, I wonder Amanda, if you would

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like to share with our listeners kind of something about

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how you became a Christian. So you've shared with me

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that you did not grow up in a Christian home,

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and so I personally find, you know, the way that

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the Holy Spirit works on people to be fascinating. I

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love to just kind of have people tell me, you

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know what the breadcrumbs that they have about.

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Speaker 2: You know, how He's worked in their life.

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Speaker 1: So what what would you like to share with folks

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about that part of your story?

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Speaker 4: Well, that would be a whole other podcast conversation. My

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dirty of faith was very circuitous and rife with twists

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and turns. It's like a like a spiritual thriller novel

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or something. So but I would say I have what

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I call like big rocks in my faith story, and

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so without getting too into the weeds with it, I

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can at least sort of highlight the milestones along the

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path that kind of got me where I am today,

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sort of like the stepping stones of faith. So, as

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you mentioned, I was not raised in a Christian home.

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I actually now recognize that my home was probably actually

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very pagan in nature.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of occult sort of things around my house, you know,

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palm reading, numerology, horoscopes, tarot weed or you know, things

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of that nature. You know, we had wick and friends,

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you know that we had from my high school, and

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so that was all part of how I grew up.

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Speaker 2: The interesting thing is, I think if you would ask

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what are.

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Speaker 4: My fans, especially the adults, I think they would have

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said they were Christian because that was a time when

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just that's just what.

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Speaker 2: You were cultural Christianity. Yeah, I was just well you

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were not a Christian.

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Speaker 4: That's interesting, but you would say, yes, I was a

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Christian even though you never in church or read your

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Bible or you know, even had any interest in Jesus whatsoever. So,

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you know, but I had a lot of Christian friends. Know,

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a lot of my little girlfriends went to church, and

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you know, in the summers once in a while they

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would invite me to BBS and you know, I love

241
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the snacks and the crafts, you know, the whole Jesus thing.

242
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I was like, whatever, you know, give me the goldfish

243
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and the you know, high seat, you know, fruit punch.

244
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You know, I want to build a little church of

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popsicle sticks. Like that was really in the songs, you know,

246
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that was really what I was more interested in. I

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that's in a while, but it justesn't makes sense, Like

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to wake up early on a Sunday and go sit

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in a pew and like, listen to some boring old

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guy talk, you know, for an hour.

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Speaker 2: Is that how my five year old feels? Yes, I relate.

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I relate to that.

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Speaker 4: So, you know, So I so I didn't really have

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like Eddie foundation. And when I but I was in

255
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high school, one of my best friends invited me to

256
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youth group at her church, which happened to be a

257
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Southern Baptist church in southwestern New York, which is very odd,

258
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I realize now.

259
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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how.

260
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Speaker 4: It ended up there, but I was and so so

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she to be a youth group.

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Speaker 2: But I was like, yeah, I don't have anything. Why

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on Wednesday night?

264
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Speaker 3: Sure?

265
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Speaker 2: Why not?

266
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Speaker 4: And so there was this sweet older couple whose names

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I cannot remember all these years later, but they had

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a minivan and they would go and they would pick

269
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you know, a bunch of us up and take us

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to church to youth group on Wednesday nights. And so,

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of course youth group is a plast you know, It's

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like we might have like five minutes a Bible lesson

273
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and then the rest of the time we were like playing.

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Speaker 2: Games and you know, goofing off. So I thought that

275
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that was great. Fun.

276
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Speaker 4: And then of course, you know, eventually she invited me

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to church on Sunday morning with her, and I said, oh, well, okay, Allie,

278
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I can try this, you know, why not?

279
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Speaker 2: And so I went.

280
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Speaker 4: And I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, some of these

281
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people will say things.

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Speaker 2: Like the Holy Spirit got a hold of me.

283
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Speaker 4: You know, it wasn't like that at all, And quite honestly,

284
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that's really not how any aspect of my faith life

285
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has ever been.

286
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Speaker 2: I would say my faith life has always.

287
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Speaker 4: Been very subdued relative to how you hear. Like some

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people have these like conversion stories you know, that are

289
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very you know, dramatic.

290
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Speaker 2: That was it was not like that for me at all.

291
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Speaker 1: So, you know, I was one likes to say his

292
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conversion story is that he was baptized when he was

293
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a few days old.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's very Yeah, that's a beautiful, beautiful conversion story.

295
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Speaker 2: That will be my children's as well. Yeah, and so

296
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and so.

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Speaker 4: You know, because it was a Baptist church, they did

298
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the Alder call and it was a very and it

299
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was a very small church.

300
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Speaker 2: I think there are maybe like twenty people in this

301
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whole church, if.

302
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Speaker 4: That lovely, lovely people though, and so my sister had

303
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started my older sister had started coming with me, which

304
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is a whole other story.

305
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Speaker 2: But you know, one morning, you.

306
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Speaker 4: Know, they did the alder call and she and I

307
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looked at each other and I said, you know, basically.

308
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Speaker 2: You know, do you want to go up?

309
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Speaker 4: And she like nodded, and so the two of us

310
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went up, and and so of course, you know, the

311
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pastor you know, pray with us, and then we set

312
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a date for our baptism. And so she and I

313
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were actually both baptized the same day in a group

314
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leaders swimming pool.

315
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Speaker 2: So it's so it's full immersion, let's see.

316
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Speaker 1: Okay, So last I heard you were talking about, you know,

317
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how you were baptized. Your sister and you you know,

318
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went up and then you were in the swimming pool.

319
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Speaker 2: Yes, full immersion, I think her last words.

320
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Speaker 4: Yes, So full immersion. And you know it's funny, I

321
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don't I didn't really know what to expect after I

322
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got baptized. You know, I felt like I'd done the

323
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right thing, but I wasn't sure if I was if

324
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I should I feel different.

325
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Speaker 2: You know, I just wasn't sure what to expect.

326
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Speaker 4: I mean, I was sixty years old, So you know,

327
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I I it was also sort of I don't want

328
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to say embarrassing, you know, but as like as a

329
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tea like to be.

330
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Speaker 2: Everything was embarrassing.

331
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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you're just awkward. Everything's weird, like no matter what. Yes,

332
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So so I continue to go to church with my

333
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friend at Saday mornings. Unfortunately, my sister shortly thereafter stopped

334
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going and so so but for me, I I was

335
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very what do I say, My faith was very shallow,

336
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I guess, is what I would say. I obviously didn't

337
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have any support from my family really in all of this.

338
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It's like my socier had gotten baptized, but especially when

339
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she stopped going to church. You know, it's not like

340
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she was super zealous about anything.

341
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Speaker 2: And so for me.

342
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Speaker 4: It was, especially when I went to college shortly after that,

343
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I mean, it was just very easy to just stop

344
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all together. You know. When I first arrived at college,

345
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I was, you know, still what I call like a peppy.

346
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Speaker 2: Christian, you know, like I'm a Christian, you know, but

347
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not going to church, not reading my bike, you know,

348
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not really praying much, you know.

349
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Speaker 4: So I was I was a believer, but I was

350
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not being a faithful believer.

351
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Speaker 2: I guess that is how I would describe it.

352
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Speaker 4: And so I didn't really do anything with church. And

353
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then I tried to do a college in New York City,

354
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and it was just a really hard situation for me.

355
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You know, I was nineteen years old, I didn't have

356
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a job, I didn't have a place to live. And

357
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I happened to be on campus one day and these

358
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young women were having Bible study and the way they

359
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were talking about the Bible just attracted me so much

360
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because it was obvious that they really knew their Bibles

361
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and that they were very passionate about God's word and

362
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a bunch of Jesus and just having like really deep,

363
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meaningful commerce That's word. And so I was very drawn

364
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to them, and I went over and introduced myself, and

365
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like I said, this is a whole other podcast. But

366
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I ended up joined that church, and many years later

367
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i'd actually find out that many people consider it a cult. Okay,

368
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,680
so as the International Church of Christ. I don't know

369
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,640
what that is. Yeah, and I didn't know either. You know.

370
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,319
They never referred to they just called themselves God's True Church.

371
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They never said that they were affiliated with any denomination

372
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or anything.

373
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Speaker 1: Like that.

374
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Speaker 4: And the so I was part of I don't know

375
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,680
if they called it the Manhattan Chapter or whatever it was,

376
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but the church that I belonged to worshiped at the

377
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Jacob Javis Center in Manhattan and thousands and thousands of people.

378
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I mean it was impressive. I mean you walked in there,

379
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I mean you felt like you were part of something

380
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so special and so but yes, and so we were

381
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doing Bible study every night after class and having fellowship

382
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stuff on you.

383
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Speaker 2: Know, Saturday.

384
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Speaker 4: The whole day Sunday was church, Bible study, fellowship. And

385
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,279
so what I ended up happening was it basically kind

386
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of started like taking over my life, sounds like it.

387
00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:17,039
And but one of the things that there's it's interesting though,

388
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because I was so young and naive and I did

389
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not know the Bible very well, because if I had

390
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,240
all of the red flags that I recognize as red

391
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flags now, I would have seen much earlier. One perfect

392
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:33,079
example of that is you go before you can become

393
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,720
a member of the church, you have to go through

394
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what I would say is like a pretty rigorous process

395
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of being interrogated.

396
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Speaker 2: Okay, and so so someone was tasked.

397
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Speaker 4: With doing that with me and so they basically it's

398
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:52,359
basically like a very intense confession confessional process. And so

399
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,799
she was asking me all different kinds of questions and

400
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,799
at one point we got to a question and she

401
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,480
asked me, have you ever been sexually abused?

402
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 2: And part of me was like, I don't really know

403
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,119
what this has to do.

404
00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:14,039
Speaker 4: I was just thinking that, and I said, yes, you know,

405
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I was sexually abused as a.

406
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Speaker 2: Child, which I was. And she said, well, you need

407
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to repent of that.

408
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Speaker 4: Whoa And like I said, in hindsight, I recognize how

409
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demented that. But at the moment, but I said, I

410
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was there, little lonely nineteen year old me, you know,

411
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just desperate to belong like the something and they have

412
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friends and to feel like I had a group of

413
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people I belonged with. I just I kind of shut

414
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down that little uga uga like wordings in the back

415
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,880
of my brain, like wordy warning will Roger, and just said,

416
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,039
you know, I repent of it, you know, because they

417
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didn't really explain. The best I could unders standard is

418
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:05,359
that because they felt like I had been sexually active

419
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,480
in that way quote my goodness, that it had corrupted

420
00:22:09,559 --> 00:22:12,119
me in some way and therefore I needed to repent

421
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:13,759
of that corruption.

422
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a very generous description.

423
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Speaker 4: That's the sense I've made of it, you know, because

424
00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:22,480
you have. I mean, but some things you just can't explain.

425
00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:24,759
And I think it's my quiet. I still don't think

426
00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:28,160
I fully understand why that was part of that whole process.

427
00:22:29,559 --> 00:22:33,039
So so I passed the test, though, and I made

428
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:36,359
it through their gauntlet of requirements, only to have to

429
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,920
be fully immerged, fully immersed, immersed to be baptized.

430
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,279
Speaker 2: Again. That's another for you listeners to aurn out of where.

431
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: That's pretty heretical. Yes, you're baptized under the Son of

432
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,000
the Trinity. The church universally almost pretty much universally counts

433
00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:56,079
as you know, you're good, it's real baptism.

434
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,079
Speaker 4: Yes, well, this church did not. They believe that unless

435
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,920
you were unless you submitted to a full immersion Baptist

436
00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:06,039
baptism into that church, you were going to hell.

437
00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:07,599
Speaker 2: Wow.

438
00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:10,039
Speaker 4: And that's what they believed, and that's what they taught,

439
00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:11,640
and they were very unapologetic about it.

440
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: And you were there because they were welcoming you, you know,

441
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,759
creating structure for your life.

442
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 4: I was love bombed, you know, And like I said,

443
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:21,880
that I was being doctrinated and all I said, everything

444
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,400
in hindsight just makes so much more sense. So so

445
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,960
I was in this church, I said, and it started

446
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:28,839
taking over my life.

447
00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 2: You know.

448
00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:32,319
Speaker 4: They just kept demitting more and more of my time,

449
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:36,559
you know, more, trying to isolate me from people who

450
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:39,759
weren't in the church. There was a guy in the

451
00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:43,319
church to actually stalk me for a while, you know,

452
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,920
there were there were a lot of issues, and this

453
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,400
the demands just became increasing, you know, confessing, you know,

454
00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:54,759
submitting to my discipling, my disciple, ship partner they called them,

455
00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,319
who was actually basically just a handler. And so thankfully

456
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,720
this was only like a three month excursion with this.

457
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,240
But in the meantime, I'm also working full time in

458
00:24:05,319 --> 00:24:08,599
going to school full time in New York City, dealing

459
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:12,160
with a psychotic landlady and an exploding oven and no

460
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,680
heat water in the middle winter. I mean, I'm I'm

461
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,960
having like a stereotypical horrible New York City existence, right.

462
00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:21,599
Speaker 2: And I'm in a cult on top of all of this. Right.

463
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 4: So I finally decided I need to get out of

464
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,920
this just for a little while, and I went on

465
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,480
my way back to my hometown. I stopped at Ithaca,

466
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,079
New York to visit my freshman college roommate who had

467
00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:40,839
transferred to Cornell when she was studying psychology, and so

468
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,440
she said, you know what they're going on, it sounds

469
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,079
like your life there is so crazy, like what is

470
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,599
happening with you? And so I, you know, began to

471
00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:51,680
explain the things. And so when I mentioned the church,

472
00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:54,079
she was like, tell me more about this church you're in,

473
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,640
and so I explained and she's like she she thought

474
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,279
about it for a minute. I think she was probably

475
00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:01,079
deciding whether or not she say anything.

476
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 2: But finally she's like, I think you're unical.

477
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 4: And I said, what, no, this is This isn't a cult.

478
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:13,559
The church can't be a cult, you know. I'm like,

479
00:25:13,599 --> 00:25:17,359
I believe Jesus and the Bible. She's like, no, seriously,

480
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:19,279
She's like, where's that a text meook?

481
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the list of what they do.

482
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, they has the criteria and we're reading every single one.

483
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: I just sat there completely dumbfounded. I'm like, I'm a cult.

484
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,160
Oh no, what do I do?

485
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 5: Fed chair Jay Palle seems like she's straight out of

486
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,279
reservoir Dogs, stuck in the middle the Washed Out on Wall.

487
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: Street podcast with Chris Markowski.

488
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 5: Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and

489
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,519
the economy and how it affects your wallet with inflation

490
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,519
on one side and unemployment on the other. Jay Palle's

491
00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:59,000
acting clueless with a dual mandate coming in from both sides.

492
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:00,559
Speaker 2: There's not much else he can do.

493
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,799
Speaker 5: Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street,

494
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:03,960
it's affecting you financially.

495
00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:04,599
Speaker 2: Be informed.

496
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,759
Speaker 5: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris

497
00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:09,720
Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.

498
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: So one of the.

499
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: Steps from that to becoming a very orthodox pastor's wife.

500
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So so how I got from there to here?

501
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,759
So when I went back to New York, I obviously

502
00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:28,319
realized I need to get out of this church, and

503
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,960
so I basically just stopped communicating with them, and they

504
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:35,960
they stalked me, you know, because they knew my schedule.

505
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: So that show this. Yeah, So they would show up

506
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,880
my workplace when I would get off of work.

507
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,519
Speaker 4: They would be wow outside of the classroom, like because

508
00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:45,119
they thought I was going to hell. Yeah, you know,

509
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,640
And so in hindsight, I realized the reason for their zealousness.

510
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,400
You know, if you believe someone is going to hell,

511
00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:53,480
you you should do everything you can to prevent that.

512
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: Right, And so one night, I well, I do think

513
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,440
there's a theological thing right there, right, because Jesus is

514
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,880
the one who say people, if we're lucky, you know,

515
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,359
if we're blessed with the opportunity, he uses us.

516
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,759
Speaker 2: But that's his responsibility. I think that is the point

517
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:09,079
I would suggest there.

518
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you, joy, that is a point, very well made,

519
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:13,319
very well received.

520
00:27:13,559 --> 00:27:15,759
Speaker 2: But I need to stalk people out.

521
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,279
Speaker 4: Yes, he pursues, but you know, but you but you

522
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,400
even though you shouldn't stalk people, Yes, you should be

523
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,559
concerned when you know or you you believe people are damned.

524
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,839
Speaker 2: That's not something we should take lightly.

525
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 4: So we my roommate I were coming home one night

526
00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:36,640
after work and there were I think three or four

527
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,000
of them, like on the porch, and we saw them

528
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,039
from a distance, and she said, do you want me

529
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:45,359
to get rid of them? She was a Buddhist, I

530
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,480
think by the time she and I were rooming together.

531
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,359
She's basically atheist, and she was very much in New

532
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,599
Yorker at that point, and she said, you want to

533
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:54,759
get rid of them. I like, no, you know, this

534
00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:56,799
needs to happen, because the cease to stop. Like I

535
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,839
really need to just have this conversation with that and

536
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:02,759
just tell them, you know, I'm done.

537
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: It's over. Yeah yeah.

538
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:06,079
Speaker 4: And so she was got happy with that, but she's like, Okay,

539
00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:07,759
I'll be in my room. Like she's like, you know,

540
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,039
yell if they get crazy and you like, come in there.

541
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:12,519
And I was like, no, it'll be fine. And so

542
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:14,799
I sat with them and we basically had what they

543
00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:16,160
now would call a struggle session.

544
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: Right, Oh my goodness. So we're sitting there there, you know,

545
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:21,720
telling sharing.

546
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,279
Speaker 4: All these scriptures with me and like, you know, we

547
00:28:24,319 --> 00:28:26,319
don't want you to go to hell, and you know,

548
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:28,759
we're worried about your soul and all of this, and

549
00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:32,440
I'm just I'm just dissociated, you know at that point,

550
00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:35,519
because I just completely checked out, you know. And I

551
00:28:35,559 --> 00:28:36,720
finally said to them, I'm.

552
00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: Just waiting for them to be done so you can

553
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:38,920
just tell them stop.

554
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 4: And they're crying, you know, a man very emotional, and

555
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,279
I was like, I said, I was just checked out.

556
00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:47,359
And finally I said to them, I said, I still

557
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,319
love the Lord and I still love Jesus but if

558
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:53,319
this is what God expects from me, I can't do this.

559
00:28:54,119 --> 00:28:55,799
I'm like, what I'm being asked to do as a

560
00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:58,640
Christian is impossible. And I said, and I feel like

561
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,480
it's better just to give up up than to keep

562
00:29:01,559 --> 00:29:04,319
trying to fake being someone and something that I'm not.

563
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,200
And so they obviously that none of this went overwhell

564
00:29:09,319 --> 00:29:11,720
at all, and they shune. You know, so once you're

565
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,559
out of the church, like no one's allowed to talk

566
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:15,279
to you anymore. And so I knew in that moment,

567
00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,960
I was basically giving up, you know, my entire like

568
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:22,079
friends circle, you know, and people that had actually become

569
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:23,160
like sisters to me.

570
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: And so yeah, so that was my sojourn in the ICOC.

571
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: I learned much later that it's actually been banned from

572
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:35,200
almost every college campus on the face of the planet

573
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:39,799
because of their very aggressive recruiting tactics. And I've seen

574
00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:43,480
some truly heartbreaking documentaries about people who've been in the

575
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:47,000
church that has it's just completely destroyed them and their families,

576
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:49,279
Like people have committed suicide.

577
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:54,119
Speaker 3: Over believe that God hated them because they weren't following

578
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:56,759
like the dictates of the church, and that since they

579
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:58,839
were going to Hell anyway, they might as well, just

580
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,319
like just awful, awful, heartbreaking things. When I saw a

581
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:07,359
couple of documentaries and heard these people testimonies, which were

582
00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:09,680
many of them very similar to my own, you know,

583
00:30:09,759 --> 00:30:12,000
I sent them to my husband Greg, and I said,

584
00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:15,440
I seeing these all these years later helps me understand

585
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,000
appreciate how close I was to the precipice, because I

586
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:24,519
actually was suicidal, oh my goodness, when I was contemplating.

587
00:30:24,599 --> 00:30:26,200
And that was one of the reasons why I decided

588
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,119
to get out of the city, because I.

589
00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: Just I felt like rubbish, because I.

590
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:35,759
Speaker 4: Was like, I can't even do these most basic things

591
00:30:35,839 --> 00:30:38,680
that you know, I believed in that church that God

592
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:39,720
was requiring of me.

593
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: You know, it was essentially perfection. You know, it was

594
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,720
very much workspace, like if you.

595
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,039
Speaker 4: Weren't checking all the boxes, then you were struggling your faith,

596
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,359
and you know, you were on the verge of possibly

597
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:52,880
like going to hell.

598
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: It was very, very damaging in many ways.

599
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 4: So by the time I met my husband, who is

600
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,240
I jokingly call him an off the boat German Lutheran.

601
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,079
You know, his grandma's name was Luthor, his dad's middle

602
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:11,839
Dave was Luthor.

603
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: You know they're they're very Lutheran.

604
00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: And so by the time I've met him, I was

605
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,839
basically I still believed in God, I still believed in Jesus,

606
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,319
but I had no interest in church whatsoever, because obviously

607
00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:27,160
by that point I had a lot of trust issues,

608
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,279
and you know, I didn't trust the church as an institution.

609
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:34,000
I didn't necessarily trust my own judgment and being able

610
00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:34,880
to discern.

611
00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: Whether a church was was safe or not.

612
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,079
Speaker 4: And so by the time he and I met, I

613
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,359
was just I was like, I'm good with God, I'm

614
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,079
going with Jesus.

615
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:47,319
Speaker 2: I I'm done with church, and my church is just

616
00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:48,599
a non starter for me.

617
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,119
Speaker 4: And so so we were dating, and we were dating

618
00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:55,319
about a year I think.

619
00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:58,039
Speaker 2: It was, and he called me up and was like,

620
00:31:59,039 --> 00:31:59,559
we need to talk.

621
00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 4: I'm gonna over after work. And anyone who's ever data

622
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,200
knows you never want to hear those words. Yeah, person

623
00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:06,240
you're dating.

624
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: We never want to hear them. We need to talk.

625
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,960
They usually they think good.

626
00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 4: And so the long, the longest short of it is

627
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,559
that he broke up with me because I want to

628
00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:17,319
go to church with him.

629
00:32:18,079 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: Wow.

630
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,559
Speaker 4: And he said, you know, if this relationship is his

631
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,480
any future, you know, we need to be in the

632
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,960
same spiritual path. You know, we need to be worshiping

633
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:29,119
the same church. You know, I want you know, the

634
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,319
tie ten percent of my income. You know, I want

635
00:32:31,319 --> 00:32:33,640
my children to be you know, baptized and confirmed in

636
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,200
the church. And if you're not on that path with me,

637
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,079
then this relationship has no future.

638
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:39,799
Speaker 2: What a man.

639
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was not having some leadership, Yeah I was.

640
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,839
Speaker 2: I was not happy camper about it in the moment.

641
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,279
He knows lots, yep, Yeah, he's going to go there.

642
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,640
Ye yeah. Yeah.

643
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 4: And so you know, at the time, you know, I

644
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240
I in my defense, I said, well, I didn't know

645
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:02,079
or understand how important that was to you, and now

646
00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:04,440
you're basically telling me this. And he said, well, you

647
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,240
said three months ago you would go with me, and

648
00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:09,079
you've shown no interest since. So I can only take

649
00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:11,400
that to mean that this is not something you're ever

650
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,160
going to do. And so I said, you know, you know,

651
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,559
I have church issues. You know, I'm like, this isn't

652
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,559
It's hard for me to get over that hurdle, especially

653
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:25,279
because I come from like a childhood with abuse and

654
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,839
neglect and other issues.

655
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: You know, I just in general, I had a lot of.

656
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:32,599
Speaker 4: Trust issues about any any authority really, just because I've

657
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,720
been so harmed by so many authority figures in my life,

658
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,559
whether personal or institutional, and so so.

659
00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:43,119
Speaker 2: So we broke up.

660
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:43,759
Speaker 3: You know.

661
00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:46,039
Speaker 4: I called him the next day. I stayed home from work.

662
00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:48,599
I was just devastated. I stay on work. I call

663
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,160
him next day and I said, this conversation isn't over.

664
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,079
We need to talk again. And so I don't think

665
00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:58,440
he wanted to. He came over and we basically reconciled,

666
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,119
and then I went to with him that Sunday. I

667
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,880
knew nothing about Lutherans, Like there was one Lutheran church

668
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,079
where I grew up, I don't know anyone who went there,

669
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,000
and because everywhere I grew up was basically Methodists or Catholic,

670
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,559
like that was it was like Italian Catholics and Swedish

671
00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:17,960
Methodists and like that was it. And just for the record,

672
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,079
my my my mom's side, like my great grandmother for

673
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:24,199
examples of full blood sweet So so I knew a

674
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,440
lot about Swedes and not so much about thisism. I

675
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,800
knew a lot about Swedes, and my best friends growing

676
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,159
up were Italian Roman Catholics, so I knew quite a

677
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:32,840
bit about Catholicism as well.

678
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: So I knew nothing about Lutherans. I didn't know what

679
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:36,559
to expect.

680
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 4: I figured they were kind of like Catholics, they didn't

681
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:39,840
pray to Marian saints.

682
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: Like that was like, that's pretty good.

683
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was my understanding Uthreds just based on my

684
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,079
knowledge of history because I'm a history nerd, and so

685
00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:49,079
I kind of knew about Martin Luther and the Reformation,

686
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:49,519
how they.

687
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: Broke away, Like I knew all of that.

688
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,559
Speaker 4: So so we went to church, and like I said,

689
00:34:55,559 --> 00:34:57,599
I didn't know what to expect. You know, I've never

690
00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,960
been to a church that followed the Divines risks before.

691
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,159
Speaker 2: That was all new to me. I've my listeners.

692
00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: That's a very traditional liturgical sort of church service in

693
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,320
which you know, you have scripture readings and you have

694
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,519
hymns and they're all in an order that people are

695
00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:12,480
used to following.

696
00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:15,519
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed, And so I was not familiar with that

697
00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:19,239
because another churches I previously attended had done that. So

698
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,719
I've admitted I didn't really care for it because I

699
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:22,639
was like, Wow, this is like.

700
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: Really boring, pretty boring.

701
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 4: That's like, and Mike, and how does everyone know what's

702
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,480
going on, Like how do they know when the day

703
00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:33,280
of the sids and when they're you know, But I

704
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,159
I've that's another conversation.

705
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: I've grown to cherish the liturgy like so intensely. Me too. Yeah,

706
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,760
that's like a whole other journey. Yep.

707
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 4: So so I went and it was funny because the

708
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,639
pastor at the church at the time used to give

709
00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:49,679
a little sermon note outline notes, you know, that you

710
00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:52,280
could fill in as you were, you know, listening to

711
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,119
the sermon. And so Greg Lean go over to me

712
00:35:55,199 --> 00:35:57,480
and he's like, oh, you picked really interesting you know,

713
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,480
Sunday to come. And I was like, oh, He's like,

714
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:03,119
look at the sermon topic. And so the sermon topic

715
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:04,800
was marriage Biblical.

716
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: Style, and I kind of one of those like serendipitous

717
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:12,159
Holy Spirit moments, Yes it really is.

718
00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:14,079
Speaker 4: And so I kind of side eyed him, like what

719
00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:16,039
are you saying because we were not talking. I mean,

720
00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:19,079
the marriage had come up because of the whole church conversation,

721
00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:21,840
but in general, marriage had not been a conversation we've

722
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,840
been having at that point anyway. And so that was

723
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,280
my introduction of the Lutheranism.

724
00:36:28,599 --> 00:36:31,559
Speaker 2: And as we were leaving church. This is also into

725
00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:33,199
experience to me that the pastor.

726
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,119
Speaker 4: Was there greeting everyone as they were coming out, and

727
00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:37,639
so he introduced himself and.

728
00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:40,079
Speaker 2: He's like, I would love to just meet up with.

729
00:36:40,039 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 4: You and have coffee and just talk about your faith

730
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,800
journey and you know, give me an opportunity as there

731
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,679
any questions you might have about our faith. And I

732
00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:53,559
I was like, really, like you want to just meet

733
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:55,960
up with me and like talk and like hear my

734
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:59,159
story and let me ask questions. Like this was completely

735
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,519
beyond paradigm like I was accustomed to, Like in any

736
00:37:03,519 --> 00:37:05,199
other church I'd everman involved in, it's sort of like

737
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:07,599
the pastor was up here and like the people are

738
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:09,960
down here, and you don't like talk to the pastor,

739
00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:10,360
you know.

740
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,559
Speaker 2: It's like you don't like hang out with him, you know,

741
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:14,920
and the most you definitely.

742
00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 4: Don't ask questions, you know, because that obviously is a

743
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,239
sign that you're struggling your faith if you're asking questions.

744
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:26,199
Speaker 2: And so I was just so impressed and excited.

745
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 4: I was like, Wow, I actually get to like so

746
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:30,199
with the pastor and he's gonna talk to me, he's

747
00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:31,519
gonna let me ask some questions.

748
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: And so we did, and we met up.

749
00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 4: I was very late to find out I did not

750
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,800
need to get baptized again.

751
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,519
Speaker 2: For a third time. That was one of my first questions.

752
00:37:41,159 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 4: Was like, do I need to get baptized again? And

753
00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:46,880
I explained to him and he's like, no, I think

754
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,039
you're probably good. I'm like, I'm probably more baptized than

755
00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,039
the average person at this point, probably are full a

756
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:59,480
version twice yep. So yeah, within a three year time period.

757
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:02,519
Golliegi and hindsight, it just it just kind of I

758
00:38:02,639 --> 00:38:02,960
just it.

759
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 2: Just makes me laugh.

760
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,119
Speaker 4: And so yeah, so we you know, so he answered

761
00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:08,800
all my questions and you know, he's like, my door's

762
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,480
always open to you. Here's my phone number. And that

763
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:14,760
was really the first time I knew it understood what

764
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,280
a what a shepherd look like, and what a pastor

765
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,639
who is engaged with his with his congregants looks like

766
00:38:25,519 --> 00:38:27,719
and cares about them as individuals.

767
00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: And so that really impressed me.

768
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 4: And I also was just happy I could ask questions

769
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,719
and expressed doubts without feeling like I was going to

770
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,039
be judged or castigated in some way. That was also

771
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:44,000
a new experience for me. But obviously, you know, Lutheran

772
00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:45,360
Church has been around so long.

773
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,039
Speaker 2: I mean, I had a lot to learn.

774
00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 4: Just about like Lutheranism in general, and so I started

775
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,599
going to the adult Confirmation classes, and Blessed Greg, I

776
00:38:54,599 --> 00:38:56,280
didn't have my driver's lize at the time, so he

777
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,440
had to drive me there. And so so he was

778
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,800
coming to the class us and we were going through

779
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,719
I was going through a dual confirmation, and.

780
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,039
Speaker 2: I just could not get enough of it.

781
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 4: I just was so just so hungry to learn from

782
00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:16,719
God's word in a way that felt authentic and actually scriptural,

783
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,719
which was not had not been the case, especially in

784
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,280
the ICOC International Church of Christ. I recognize now that

785
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,800
they very much cherry picked scriptures a lot to like

786
00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:33,760
conform to their tenets instead of the other way around.

787
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, so I.

788
00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 4: Just I just had this renewed zeal, you know, for

789
00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:41,719
God and for his word and for worship and just

790
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,280
learning everything I could. Blessed Greg, I think sometimes I

791
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,840
don't think he recognized he was getting himself into because

792
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,519
the next thing, you know, we're doing coffee hour teaching

793
00:39:54,599 --> 00:39:57,800
bb yes, and we're on the evangelism committee, and so

794
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:58,679
the next thing you.

795
00:39:58,639 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: Know, you know, and then you know he's become a

796
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,480
pastor and that takes up and did a lot of

797
00:40:03,519 --> 00:40:04,280
work and studying.

798
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 4: I mean, so all of that was really God planning

799
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:11,039
the seeds, I think for us to be a pastor's family,

800
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:12,880
and I'm so grateful for that.

801
00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:17,119
Speaker 2: But yeah, So for me, the spewers always say, well,

802
00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:19,679
what is it about being Lutheran you love? And I said, well,

803
00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:20,840
there's a couple of different.

804
00:40:20,639 --> 00:40:23,639
Speaker 4: Things, I said, But for me, based on my experience,

805
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,519
one of the things I really appreciate about being Lutheran

806
00:40:25,559 --> 00:40:26,840
it was the first time I was ever in a

807
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,159
church where I felt like I didn't have to check

808
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:35,480
my intellect at the door, and that I could, you know,

809
00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:40,039
ask questions and wrestle with things.

810
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: And you know, my relations I am, generally speaking like

811
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:47,880
not a very emotional person.

812
00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 4: And so for me, you know, a lot of my

813
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,360
relationship with the Lord is very intellectual, you know, and

814
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,840
the way I often seek him is through intellect actual means,

815
00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:05,079
you know, like reading and studying his word, reading commentaries,

816
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:09,599
you know, reading Christian books, you know, reading books about

817
00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:12,599
church history. And so for me, that's a lot of

818
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:16,480
how I engage with my faith. But you know, I

819
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,119
also still do have of emotion. You know, like there

820
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:22,880
was one morning I was reading a psalm and I

821
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,519
just suddenly burst into tears.

822
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I pray.

823
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: Actually, I mean I probably cry at least a little

824
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,400
bit almost steph Ea tonight that I'm praying.

825
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, so there's still a tenderness there.

826
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 4: But I recognize, you know, that I was never going

827
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,800
to be the waving my hands in the air like crying,

828
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,639
and you know, I was just never going to be

829
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,280
that person.

830
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: I was never going to be the person who was

831
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:49,280
like quote unquote.

832
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,519
Speaker 4: On fire for the Lord, and that that was okay,

833
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,840
you know, and that I could show up as who

834
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,920
and what He created me to be and not feel

835
00:41:58,159 --> 00:42:00,480
like there was something wrong with me because of that,

836
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:04,239
because I wasn't quote unquote on fire for the Lord.

837
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,199
Speaker 2: And that, you know, just the just that the Lutherines isn't.

838
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:10,159
Speaker 4: There's just something just so calm, you know, and peaceful

839
00:42:11,199 --> 00:42:13,920
and serene about it that I, as a person who

840
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,679
dealt with a lot of turmoil and struggle throughout my

841
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,199
life and therefore still wrestle with a lot of that internally,

842
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:25,960
just find very appealing. It's like it's the one place

843
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,119
in this entire world where I know what to expect

844
00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:31,519
every single week, you know, and I can sit in

845
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:33,960
that pew, you know, and no matter what's going on

846
00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:38,280
in the world around me, I know that the Lord

847
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,119
will minister to me like in that moment, you know,

848
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,440
through the sacraments, you know, and through hearing his word

849
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:49,039
you know, preached, and I.

850
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: Just I just cherish it so much. And so I've

851
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,679
been a Luther about oh golly, I guess a little

852
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:55,719
over twenty years.

853
00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 4: Now, because of course, once I got confirmed, the marriage

854
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,559
is out of the table. And clearly it happened as well, yes,

855
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,960
and so yeah, so I got confirmed and we got

856
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,280
married the next year, and you know, and obviously, as

857
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,519
you know, our journey to becoming a pastor's family, that

858
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,800
was another you know, several years into our marriage. So

859
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,239
that wasn't necessarily on our radar all when we first

860
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:19,880
got married.

861
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,679
Speaker 2: So that was some it was a divine surprise.

862
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, as I always laugh, I'm like, got

863
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,360
you your divine switch a ruse.

864
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:30,519
Speaker 2: I think he's into those, really is, I like it

865
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:33,559
really is. You're going one way and he's like, oh no, no, no, no,

866
00:43:33,679 --> 00:43:36,400
we're heady, We're actually going this way. Yeah, surprise.

867
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, Like the one thing I've come to

868
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,440
expect is that I can't expect anything I expect.

869
00:43:41,599 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the truth. But I love it.

870
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 4: You know.

871
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:47,639
Speaker 2: I never want to get married.

872
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,559
Speaker 4: I never wanted to have children like me neither. Never

873
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:55,199
saw myself as a pastor's wife in a Nashville, Tennessee.

874
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,480
And so there's nothing about my life that looks even

875
00:43:58,559 --> 00:44:01,679
remotely anything like I had planned for myself, and I'm

876
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,679
so grateful for that.

877
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,679
Speaker 1: Well, the last question here that I have has gone

878
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:11,320
a completely different topic, but I think our listeners would

879
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,960
be very interested in maybe a couple of I don't know,

880
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,960
bullet points or highlights you'd want to pull out from

881
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,440
all of your years in mainstream HarperCollins Publishing especially. I mean,

882
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,199
if you want to talk about kind of the women's

883
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,480
side of the market, if that's something that you know better.

884
00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:27,719
But actually, if that's not your specialty, feel free to

885
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,079
talk about what your specialty is. But what are some

886
00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:32,119
things that you would share with people who aren't in

887
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:33,840
that industry about.

888
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:34,559
Speaker 2: What you experienced?

889
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, Joy, that's a wonderful question, you know,

890
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,599
I have. I realized at this point in my career,

891
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,440
I have a very unusual depth and breadth of publishing experience.

892
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,079
I've worked in self publishing, I've worked in hybrid publishing,

893
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,480
which sort of sits in between the space of self

894
00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:52,880
publishing traditional publishing.

895
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,679
Speaker 2: You know, I've also worked additional publishing. I myself, I

896
00:44:57,679 --> 00:44:59,360
am a published author, you know.

897
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 4: I've worked in leernals and newspapers, and book publishing, academic.

898
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: Publishing, you know, you name it.

899
00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:07,199
Speaker 4: It's like I really have done it all at this point,

900
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:11,679
especially from like an editorial perspective, and in writing as well,

901
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,480
because I published both fiction and nonfiction, and I've published

902
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:16,960
a couple of poems. I would never deign to call

903
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,599
myself a poet, however, So the thing that I think

904
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:26,400
is really interesting about publishing right now is that I feel,

905
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:27,440
and I feel like this is the.

906
00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: Case with most.

907
00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:36,639
Speaker 4: Legacy media companies though, whether it's film, television, or publishing,

908
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,440
I think that they're having a midlife crisis, so to speak.

909
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 2: Although I think publishing is way past midlife at this point.

910
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,519
Speaker 4: Maybe not, but you know, television and film definitely. And

911
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:52,760
I feel like all of the legacy institutions that create

912
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,639
our media are really having a bit of a crisis

913
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:01,159
right now, and I think that they're having difficult generating

914
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,519
original content. Everything's very derivative, you know, as you know,

915
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,960
I think they're having trouble.

916
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:12,599
Speaker 2: Like crafting.

917
00:46:13,639 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 4: Projects that are intellectually stimulating and that have like a

918
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,159
certain level of depth.

919
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 2: I think there's been a lot of.

920
00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 4: Dumbing down of content and that a lot of modern media,

921
00:46:27,679 --> 00:46:30,840
and I would include publishing in this is always serving

922
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,440
more of like the least common denominator, like it. Just

923
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,159
as one example, you know, and Issa Harborcollins, they seem

924
00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:42,719
to fall into this rut of publishing books by people

925
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:48,199
who had these very large social media fallowings and platforms.

926
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,079
And I always, I will be honest, I I generally

927
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,079
did not like that because I said, well, just because well, one,

928
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,760
just because they have a social media following, it doesn't

929
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,639
necessarily mean that those followers buy and read books, Like

930
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,320
maybe they just like to watch TikTok videos, you know,

931
00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:11,559
I'm like, And the other thing is, just because they

932
00:47:11,599 --> 00:47:14,320
have a platform doesn't mean they have anything meaningful to say,

933
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,760
to contribute to the world in a way that will

934
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:19,880
benefit other people.

935
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: And so I love cat videos, you know, maybe not

936
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,519
a cultural contribution.

937
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: Hey, now, don't be dissed on cat videos a very

938
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:33,239
tiny contribution I have. I have many of them bookmarked,

939
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,519
you know, for when I for what I need to

940
00:47:35,639 --> 00:47:38,400
like decompress and or I need to laugh and be.

941
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,599
Speaker 2: Reminded that the world is silly place. But yes, but

942
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,320
just you know, the way it used to be publishing

943
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,639
is quite often you know, acquisitions.

944
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 4: Editors are the people who decide generally, you know, they're

945
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,719
the ones receiving the proposals and trying to determine what

946
00:47:57,079 --> 00:47:59,199
is going to be published. There used to be a

947
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,039
time when they would see like an author and see

948
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:05,880
the potential they had, and they were willing to bring

949
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,840
them on board and willing to work with them and

950
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:11,000
nurture them and grow them.

951
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,199
Speaker 2: And that's not the case anymore.

952
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,119
Speaker 4: It used to be that a publisher a partner with

953
00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:18,480
an author and help build the author's platform, you know,

954
00:48:18,679 --> 00:48:21,440
help grow their audience, help.

955
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 2: Nurture their talent.

956
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,519
Speaker 4: Whereas now it's essentially that the author has to come

957
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:29,920
with all of that already in hand. And it's unfortunate

958
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,440
because you know where I used to sit, because I

959
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:34,719
used to help with the acquisitions. You know, there were

960
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:40,000
so many amazing projects brilliant, brilliant written things that we

961
00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:42,679
had to say no to because the author didn't quote

962
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:43,880
unquote have a platform.

963
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: And it was always just heartbreaking to me, you know.

964
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,800
And there were times, especially.

965
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,039
Speaker 4: If I knew the agent on the project, you know,

966
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:53,440
where I reach out to the agent and say, you know,

967
00:48:53,599 --> 00:48:55,880
I know that my sales team is never going to

968
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,559
go for this because they were going to say they

969
00:48:57,559 --> 00:48:59,079
don't have a platform and they're not going to give

970
00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:01,440
me the numbers I need to acquire this project.

971
00:49:02,119 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: But I think this project, in this book, deserves to

972
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,599
exist in the world. And I said, so, please encourage

973
00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:09,760
your author, you know, even though we're not going to

974
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,599
be able to sign it, you know, even if at

975
00:49:11,639 --> 00:49:13,159
the end of the day they have to self published,

976
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,760
please tell them, you know that this this is a

977
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,599
worthy project and that they need to pursue getting it

978
00:49:18,639 --> 00:49:21,159
into the world in some way, you know, whatever that

979
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,440
looks like, even if it's not traditional publishing. And I

980
00:49:24,519 --> 00:49:25,400
think it's interesting.

981
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 4: I think traditional publishing is at a bit of a

982
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,239
watershed moment because I'm finding that even the authors I

983
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,280
work with who are being traditionally published are feeling a

984
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,159
little disillusioned about it. Yeah, you know, sometimes they'll say

985
00:49:37,199 --> 00:49:39,280
things to me like what is their value add to

986
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:44,360
this whole process, you know, And I said, well, there's

987
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,559
two things. One is brand recognition, you know, for you

988
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,039
to be able to say, yes, I publish a book

989
00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:51,719
with Simon and Schuster or HarperCollins or you know, Penguin

990
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,599
Random House. I mean the other thing is really distribution,

991
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,119
you know, and being able to get your book into

992
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:00,920
Barnes and Noble or you know, get it bumped up

993
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,280
on the Amazon rankings or get you know, international rights.

994
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,280
Thing of it is, you can do all of that

995
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,360
if you self publish or go through hyper publisher.

996
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: It's just a lot of it just takes a lot

997
00:50:10,159 --> 00:50:13,280
to do all that work. Yeah, and so, and I know,

998
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:14,639
even for me, it's interesting.

999
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 4: I wasn't necessarily planning to go through a traditional publisher

1000
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,239
for my own book, even you know, I know how

1001
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:21,480
the sausage is made.

1002
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 2: And so I know what to expect from that process.

1003
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 4: But I you know, when it comes down to it,

1004
00:50:26,519 --> 00:50:28,519
I mean I just did not have the time, you know,

1005
00:50:28,639 --> 00:50:30,920
to project manage because I also know how much work

1006
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,119
is involved with that because I used to project manage

1007
00:50:33,159 --> 00:50:35,519
all my titles at HarperCollins. But it's also a matter

1008
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:38,840
of money, you know. It's like I did not have,

1009
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,079
you know, the income to bootstrap you know, my own

1010
00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:44,159
book production.

1011
00:50:44,199 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 2: You know, and editorial and distribution and everything.

1012
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 4: So for at least this popular book, it really made

1013
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,280
sense for me to go through a traditional publisher. And they,

1014
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:53,480
bless them, have stewarded it beautifully.

1015
00:50:54,199 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 2: I tease them. When I signed on, I said, I

1016
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,920
know just enough about all of this to be a problem.

1017
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:04,199
And I said, but I hope, I hope I will

1018
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:04,800
be a problem.

1019
00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:07,079
Speaker 4: Like but I do have very strong opinions about different

1020
00:51:07,119 --> 00:51:09,960
things regarding book publishing, like the paper and the cover

1021
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,880
and little details. But they were very accommodating, and I'm

1022
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,119
sash product. It's a very nice it's a very nice book.

1023
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,639
So physically, yeah, so it'll be interested to see them publishing.

1024
00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:28,679
I think there's really an opportunity, especially for smaller publishers

1025
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,880
right now, to really get in there and to find

1026
00:51:32,039 --> 00:51:34,639
that talent and to nurture it and to grow it.

1027
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,400
And so I'm just I'm looking forward hopefully to a

1028
00:51:38,519 --> 00:51:43,559
time when publishing becomes more author centric again, and it's

1029
00:51:43,679 --> 00:51:49,039
very more focused on craft and just putting beautifully well

1030
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:53,320
written books into the world instead of chasing the almighty dollar.

1031
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, especially with corporate publishing.

1032
00:51:56,039 --> 00:51:58,199
Speaker 4: Sort of dominating, I don't know if that'll ever actually

1033
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,039
be the case, but I hope that it is, because,

1034
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:03,159
like I said, there's so many wonderful books that deserve

1035
00:52:03,199 --> 00:52:05,639
to exist in the world, but they just they just

1036
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,039
can't find, you know, a home or someone who's willing

1037
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:09,199
to take a chance on them.

1038
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: Well, I think the difficulty for the smaller publishers is

1039
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,719
just kind of finding the audience of people who would

1040
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,199
be interested in their types of books as well as

1041
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,039
I mean the difficulty that all the corporate kind of

1042
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,320
monolists have, which is that the Internet as well is

1043
00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:27,079
really kind of eroding people's attention.

1044
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 2: Spans for you know, for reading. I do think there

1045
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,360
is like there's a there's.

1046
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: A niche of people who will always be readers like

1047
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,280
you and me, and that is the kin So you

1048
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,480
can make a great living about you know, finding those

1049
00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:42,039
people still, but the other probably know there's you know,

1050
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:43,239
we we don't need to spend a lot of time,

1051
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,760
but just with the kind of kind of stagnation of

1052
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,119
the ideas that are being put forth people are moving

1053
00:52:48,199 --> 00:52:51,840
to where they can find other fresh, interesting ideas, but

1054
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,239
the connection is a little bit difficult because it's again

1055
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,119
controlled by social media at that point.

1056
00:52:57,119 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I would agree with that.

1057
00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:00,280
Speaker 3: You know.

1058
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 4: It's interesting, you know, because you just you know, people

1059
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:05,480
always ask me, well, how do I get on the

1060
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:08,119
best seller list, you know, or they asked me lots

1061
00:53:08,159 --> 00:53:09,960
of different questions because you know, I have worked on

1062
00:53:10,079 --> 00:53:13,880
many bestsellers, and I always say, there is no share thing.

1063
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:17,119
There really is no sure thing, you know. I've worked

1064
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:19,800
on books by some of the most famous people in

1065
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:24,000
the world, and they hardly register, you know, on the

1066
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:27,440
national consciousness, you know, because either it's not the it's

1067
00:53:27,559 --> 00:53:30,440
like the wrong book at the wrong time, or it's

1068
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:33,119
just a subject matter from that particular author that they're

1069
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,440
maybe not interested in hearing from that person, or maybe

1070
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,159
they're more known for A and they wrote a book

1071
00:53:39,159 --> 00:53:40,920
about BB, but no one really wants to hear about

1072
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,639
B from them. So I think there's lots of reasons,

1073
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,760
but you know, they're you know, so it's it's funny.

1074
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,920
I laugh on my author. They said, trust me, if

1075
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,920
there was a surefire formula to.

1076
00:53:51,079 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would use it. Oh yeah, my publishers.

1077
00:53:53,519 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 4: I figured out that system, and they didn't have been

1078
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,320
gaming it like till the cows come home.

1079
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: And I said, so, there really is no sure thing.

1080
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 4: And I said that all you can do is write

1081
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,960
the best book that you possibly can do you possibly

1082
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:11,079
can write, and just be, you know, be passionate about it,

1083
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,639
and be passionate about the subject matter, and be willing

1084
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,320
to tell every person you meet about it, and just

1085
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,400
be you know, your your own book's biggest cheerleader, you know.

1086
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,400
And I firmly believe that any book that is well

1087
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,719
written will find its audience at some point.

1088
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 2: These people do who read? Will they? Word of mouth?

1089
00:54:29,519 --> 00:54:30,480
For sure? Yeah?

1090
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,599
Speaker 4: Pass to each other, I mean, and that's how a

1091
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:35,320
lot of people find books anymore, you know. It really

1092
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,480
is through word of mouth recommendation. And you know, I

1093
00:54:38,599 --> 00:54:40,280
know a lot of the young ladies I used to

1094
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,840
work with, the HarperCollins are very very voracious fiction readers,

1095
00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:46,840
and so they're all on the book talk and you know,

1096
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,000
all the different things, and so they're constantly sharing book

1097
00:54:50,079 --> 00:54:53,400
recommendations to one another, in introducing one another to two

1098
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,480
new authors, and so yeah, so I think that if

1099
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,519
you do your job as an author you know, it

1100
00:54:58,559 --> 00:55:02,320
will find its audience, and you know, and other and

1101
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,960
people will tell other people about it. I found, even

1102
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:09,280
just for my own book, that's where the bulk of

1103
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,920
my you know sales as far have come from is

1104
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:13,800
just from people telling other people about it.

1105
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,079
Speaker 1: Amanda Bauk is the author of One Nation Under God

1106
00:55:18,199 --> 00:55:22,079
Forty Devotions for Patriotic Women, a pastor's wife and a mother.

1107
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me today and thank you for

1108
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,679
having me. Joy, God bless you.

1109
00:55:26,199 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: Same to you, I'll write, audience, be lovers of freedom

1110
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:29,679
and anxious for the fray