Speaker 1: Welcome to the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Joy Pulman, the
executive editor over here at the Federalist.
Speaker 2: Joining me today is my friend Amanda Bauk.
Speaker 1: She is a pastor's wife and the author of the
recently released book One Nation Under God, out from Post
Hill Press. Now it's a devotional for wives and mothers,
which is what she is and Amanda, welcome to the program.
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you, Joe. I'm so happy to be here
to talk with you about the book today. Thank you
for having me. Now, what I really I think this
is a really great time of the year to be
releasing a book like this.
Speaker 1: I think people are thinking about cozy, They're thinking about introspection.
You know, we've got some great mysteries of the Christian Church.
You're coming up with Christmas obviously at the top of
the list, and so, you know, especially people who prepare
for the for the Christmas season through the penitential season
of advent. You know, it's often a wonderful thing to
kind of add a devotional to your life, and that's
what you know your book is about.
Speaker 2: So first, can you just tell me, you.
Speaker 1: Give me the basic what was your motivation for writing
a book, especially for women, short devotionals, you know, focus,
especially patriotic ones. And how did you you know, get
through the process of writing it?
Speaker 3: All?
Speaker 4: Right, those are all excellent and somewhat big questions. I'll
do my best to answer them in turn. So the
book originated in twenty twenty one morning. I was after
I did my morning devotionals, I was just doom scrolling
through headlines and just despairing over all of the violence
and the death toll and just everything just so negative
and toxic that was happening in our world. And I
just started crying, you know, and that I turned into
a prayer to the Lord and just crying.
Speaker 2: Out to him and just saying, Lord, what.
Speaker 4: Do we do the face of all of this, this
hatred and divisiveness and death and darkness? How do we
even stand up against all of this? You know, especially
when I'm just me? You know, what do I do?
How can I help our country? Especially? And I'm very
good at talking to God. I'm not always very good
at listening.
Speaker 2: To God.
Speaker 4: Or waiting for us yes, or waiting for his response,
and so, but that morning I was just so emotionally
and spiritually, you know, and mentally depleted, I actually was
still before the Lord for a change, and as I
was sitting there, the response was very simple, and it
was just one word, and it was pray. And so
I really took that called a prayer very seriously. And
so I was still interested in keeping tabs and things
that were going on, but instead of doom scrolling, I
used every headline I read as an invitation to pray
over that situation and as a prompt to pray, you know,
for specific people, for specific situations. And so I found
through that exercise that the Lord reminded me how powerful
prayer can be, and that intercessory prayer is so so necessary,
and so I, you know, and so as I was
going through this practice, I thought, what could happen if
women who love this country and are you know, prayer
warriors and are wanted to get deeper into God's word,
a deeper in relationship with him.
Speaker 2: What if they had something they could use to.
Speaker 4: Do that, you know, and a tool that would equip
them for that work and would encourage them to do
that very important work of praying for our nation and
its leaders and its people. And so that was basically
the origin of the book. And so so in twenty
twenty one, I was doing a read through of the Bible,
a two year plan, and I just said to God,
I said, you know, I know you have so much
to say about this in your word as I'm reading through.
Give me ice to see and help me see in
your word things that happened, whether it happened in scripture
or their specific verses that are applicable to the things
we're wrestling with as a nation today. And so he
was very faithful, you know, to my supplication to give
me eyes to see. And so by the time I
was done, I had a very long list of scriptures
that I could use in a book like this, and
so I was trying to decide how long it should be.
And so of course, once I landed on forty, I
had oh golly, over one hundred verses that I had curated,
and so then the coaling process began. And so I
finally got it down to forty. And like I said,
I wanted to make sure I was pulling from all
throughout scripture. And the one thing that was so interesting
to me because I had the verses selected, but I
also was very open to God showing me opportunities to
speak to the hearts of women who'd be reading this
book on subjects that I might not have necessarily considered,
including initially. Can you give some examples, yes, So, one
perfect example of that is when I was writing in
January and the fires broke out in California and Palisades,
and you know, here in Tennessee and Nashville, you know,
we deal with a lot of tornadoes, and of course
natural disasters just happened all over our country every single year,
you know, the tornadoes, the flooding, the hurricanes, the earthquakes,
the fires, and so in that moment, I just felt
like that was something that I could speak into, and
so I asked God to show me this word.
Speaker 2: How how do we.
Speaker 4: We find you in those situations and just give people
and encouragement in that And you know, because I think
it's easy when we see disasters, and especially if you're
not really strong in your faith, to feel like it's
a God forsaken thing. But just to know that, you know,
even nature, unfortunately has been corrupted by sin, and that
that's that's just our reality until Christ returns and you know,
the new heavens and new Earth com into being. And
so so how do we as Christians not only understand
it but also minister to people who are dealing with
like the after effects of a natural disaster and how
can we best support them in that situation. So that's
just one example, another example that I wasn't something I
wasn't planning to write about. I've had a lot of
health issues over the years, you know, really struggled with
anometriosis and urine fibroids, and you know, in twenty eighteen,
they thought I had a brain tumor.
Speaker 2: It was the compos you know, I've had.
Speaker 4: So many procedures issues at Greg and I, my husband,
Greg and I used to laugh and call it like
my annual health crisis.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Any year I did end up in
the R was like a banner year.
Speaker 4: And so I've really been through it with my health
and so, you know, especially as I'm getting you know,
now that I'm like firmly middle aged and I have
young children, I really have just been committed to figuring
out how I hate the word optimize, you know, because
I feel like that's so health influencer trendy language, but
it's true. You know, It's like I'm trying to figure
out how to best nurture the body that I currently have,
and I think a lot of women my age are
definitely going through that as well. I'm just trying to
figure out how we can be the best, that best, healthiest.
Speaker 2: Version of ourselves, you know, for the benelement trations and constraints.
Speaker 4: Yes, you know, primarily for the benefit of the people
that we are called to serve, you know, whether it's
our spouse or our children, or our church or or
families whomever. And so you know, so this set me
down this huge rabbit hole, you know, of all of
this research about hormones and supplements and vitamin and mineral
deficiencies and all of these things.
Speaker 1: Journey, another health influencer races.
Speaker 4: Yes, that space is just it's it's it's a hard space,
you know, thankfully, it.
Speaker 1: Strikes me about it's just people just must be desperate,
you know, it must be really bad for a.
Speaker 2: Lot of people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people are the health issues. I mean
that it's our national ortality rate is going down for
the first time.
Speaker 2: In the chronic diseases. You are just through the roof, yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Mean, and yet we're more medicated, you know than ever before,
and none of it's easy working, and so I'm just like,
there's some cognitive dissonance going on here.
Speaker 2: You know, we have sick care, not healthcare.
Speaker 4: And so I'm grateful I have found a couple health
practitioners online who are Christian. You know, I jokingly said,
I'm much more likely to heed medical advice from someone
who believes that we're fearfully and wonderfully made by a
loving God than someone who believes that we either descended
from apes or evolved from primordial ooze.
Speaker 1: As well as you know, understands that men and women
are different, you know, you know, scientific accuracy would be
an important baseline.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so yes, and so I have found.
Speaker 1: Some of our devotionals I assume are you know, helping
work through this issue with based on the scripture.
Speaker 4: Yes, and so I wasn't planning to write any about
any of that, but then just based on my own
issues and just having so many conversations with other women,
especially moms my age, just you know, wrestling with all
of this health stuff and just trying to figure it out.
You know, I really felt compelled to write about you know,
our physical welp and just you know, the focusing on
the fact that our body is a temple the Holy
Spirit and that this is the only body we will
ever have until it's resurrected and perfection and so and
our nation needs strong, able bodied, healthy people, correct, you know.
Speaker 2: And in this I mentioned like, we need.
Speaker 4: You know, healthy strong like firefighters and policemen and military
people and mothers.
Speaker 2: Yes, and mind can't be a good mother if you're like.
Speaker 4: Sick, No, that's what I said. I'm like, we need
grandparents who have good, long lives so that they can
influence many generations, you know, of their grandchildren and great grandchildren,
great great grandchildren. And so I just really felt convicted
to write about that, and so so I was very
open to the Lord's leading and all of that, and
you know, just asking him to show me if there
were places that I needed to speak into that would
really touch women's hearts, and that really do, even though
it is a very individual concern, really has accumulative impact
on our country as well.
Speaker 1: Wonderful I would like, I wonder Amanda, if you would
like to share with our listeners kind of something about
how you became a Christian. So you've shared with me
that you did not grow up in a Christian home,
and so I personally find, you know, the way that
the Holy Spirit works on people to be fascinating. I
love to just kind of have people tell me, you
know what the breadcrumbs that they have about.
Speaker 2: You know, how He's worked in their life.
Speaker 1: So what what would you like to share with folks
about that part of your story?
Speaker 4: Well, that would be a whole other podcast conversation. My
dirty of faith was very circuitous and rife with twists
and turns. It's like a like a spiritual thriller novel
or something. So but I would say I have what
I call like big rocks in my faith story, and
so without getting too into the weeds with it, I
can at least sort of highlight the milestones along the
path that kind of got me where I am today,
sort of like the stepping stones of faith. So, as
you mentioned, I was not raised in a Christian home.
I actually now recognize that my home was probably actually
very pagan in nature.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot.
Speaker 4: Of occult sort of things around my house, you know,
palm reading, numerology, horoscopes, tarot weed or you know, things
of that nature. You know, we had wick and friends,
you know that we had from my high school, and
so that was all part of how I grew up.
Speaker 2: The interesting thing is, I think if you would ask
what are.
Speaker 4: My fans, especially the adults, I think they would have
said they were Christian because that was a time when
just that's just what.
Speaker 2: You were cultural Christianity. Yeah, I was just well you
were not a Christian.
Speaker 4: That's interesting, but you would say, yes, I was a
Christian even though you never in church or read your
Bible or you know, even had any interest in Jesus whatsoever. So,
you know, but I had a lot of Christian friends. Know,
a lot of my little girlfriends went to church, and
you know, in the summers once in a while they
would invite me to BBS and you know, I love
the snacks and the crafts, you know, the whole Jesus thing.
I was like, whatever, you know, give me the goldfish
and the you know, high seat, you know, fruit punch.
You know, I want to build a little church of
popsicle sticks. Like that was really in the songs, you know,
that was really what I was more interested in. I
that's in a while, but it justesn't makes sense, Like
to wake up early on a Sunday and go sit
in a pew and like, listen to some boring old
guy talk, you know, for an hour.
Speaker 2: Is that how my five year old feels? Yes, I relate.
I relate to that.
Speaker 4: So, you know, So I so I didn't really have
like Eddie foundation. And when I but I was in
high school, one of my best friends invited me to
youth group at her church, which happened to be a
Southern Baptist church in southwestern New York, which is very odd,
I realize now.
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how.
Speaker 4: It ended up there, but I was and so so
she to be a youth group.
Speaker 2: But I was like, yeah, I don't have anything. Why
on Wednesday night?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 4: And so there was this sweet older couple whose names
I cannot remember all these years later, but they had
a minivan and they would go and they would pick
you know, a bunch of us up and take us
to church to youth group on Wednesday nights. And so,
of course youth group is a plast you know, It's
like we might have like five minutes a Bible lesson
and then the rest of the time we were like playing.
Speaker 2: Games and you know, goofing off. So I thought that
that was great. Fun.
Speaker 4: And then of course, you know, eventually she invited me
to church on Sunday morning with her, and I said, oh, well, okay, Allie,
I can try this, you know, why not?
Speaker 2: And so I went.
Speaker 4: And I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, some of these
people will say things.
Speaker 2: Like the Holy Spirit got a hold of me.
Speaker 4: You know, it wasn't like that at all, And quite honestly,
that's really not how any aspect of my faith life
has ever been.
Speaker 2: I would say my faith life has always.
Speaker 4: Been very subdued relative to how you hear. Like some
people have these like conversion stories you know, that are
very you know, dramatic.
Speaker 2: That was it was not like that for me at all.
Speaker 1: So, you know, I was one likes to say his
conversion story is that he was baptized when he was
a few days old.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's very Yeah, that's a beautiful, beautiful conversion story.
Speaker 2: That will be my children's as well. Yeah, and so
and so.
Speaker 4: You know, because it was a Baptist church, they did
the Alder call and it was a very and it
was a very small church.
Speaker 2: I think there are maybe like twenty people in this
whole church, if.
Speaker 4: That lovely, lovely people though, and so my sister had
started my older sister had started coming with me, which
is a whole other story.
Speaker 2: But you know, one morning, you.
Speaker 4: Know, they did the alder call and she and I
looked at each other and I said, you know, basically.
Speaker 2: You know, do you want to go up?
Speaker 4: And she like nodded, and so the two of us
went up, and and so of course, you know, the
pastor you know, pray with us, and then we set
a date for our baptism. And so she and I
were actually both baptized the same day in a group
leaders swimming pool.
Speaker 2: So it's so it's full immersion, let's see.
Speaker 1: Okay, So last I heard you were talking about, you know,
how you were baptized. Your sister and you you know,
went up and then you were in the swimming pool.
Speaker 2: Yes, full immersion, I think her last words.
Speaker 4: Yes, So full immersion. And you know it's funny, I
don't I didn't really know what to expect after I
got baptized. You know, I felt like I'd done the
right thing, but I wasn't sure if I was if
I should I feel different.
Speaker 2: You know, I just wasn't sure what to expect.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was sixty years old, So you know,
I I it was also sort of I don't want
to say embarrassing, you know, but as like as a
tea like to be.
Speaker 2: Everything was embarrassing.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you're just awkward. Everything's weird, like no matter what. Yes,
So so I continue to go to church with my
friend at Saday mornings. Unfortunately, my sister shortly thereafter stopped
going and so so but for me, I I was
very what do I say, My faith was very shallow,
I guess, is what I would say. I obviously didn't
have any support from my family really in all of this.
It's like my socier had gotten baptized, but especially when
she stopped going to church. You know, it's not like
she was super zealous about anything.
Speaker 2: And so for me.
Speaker 4: It was, especially when I went to college shortly after that,
I mean, it was just very easy to just stop
all together. You know. When I first arrived at college,
I was, you know, still what I call like a peppy.
Speaker 2: Christian, you know, like I'm a Christian, you know, but
not going to church, not reading my bike, you know,
not really praying much, you know.
Speaker 4: So I was I was a believer, but I was
not being a faithful believer.
Speaker 2: I guess that is how I would describe it.
Speaker 4: And so I didn't really do anything with church. And
then I tried to do a college in New York City,
and it was just a really hard situation for me.
You know, I was nineteen years old, I didn't have
a job, I didn't have a place to live. And
I happened to be on campus one day and these
young women were having Bible study and the way they
were talking about the Bible just attracted me so much
because it was obvious that they really knew their Bibles
and that they were very passionate about God's word and
a bunch of Jesus and just having like really deep,
meaningful commerce That's word. And so I was very drawn
to them, and I went over and introduced myself, and
like I said, this is a whole other podcast. But
I ended up joined that church, and many years later
i'd actually find out that many people consider it a cult. Okay,
so as the International Church of Christ. I don't know
what that is. Yeah, and I didn't know either. You know.
They never referred to they just called themselves God's True Church.
They never said that they were affiliated with any denomination
or anything.
Speaker 1: Like that.
Speaker 4: And the so I was part of I don't know
if they called it the Manhattan Chapter or whatever it was,
but the church that I belonged to worshiped at the
Jacob Javis Center in Manhattan and thousands and thousands of people.
I mean it was impressive. I mean you walked in there,
I mean you felt like you were part of something
so special and so but yes, and so we were
doing Bible study every night after class and having fellowship
stuff on you.
Speaker 2: Know, Saturday.
Speaker 4: The whole day Sunday was church, Bible study, fellowship. And
so what I ended up happening was it basically kind
of started like taking over my life, sounds like it.
And but one of the things that there's it's interesting though,
because I was so young and naive and I did
not know the Bible very well, because if I had
all of the red flags that I recognize as red
flags now, I would have seen much earlier. One perfect
example of that is you go before you can become
a member of the church, you have to go through
what I would say is like a pretty rigorous process
of being interrogated.
Speaker 2: Okay, and so so someone was tasked.
Speaker 4: With doing that with me and so they basically it's
basically like a very intense confession confessional process. And so
she was asking me all different kinds of questions and
at one point we got to a question and she
asked me, have you ever been sexually abused?
Speaker 2: And part of me was like, I don't really know
what this has to do.
Speaker 4: I was just thinking that, and I said, yes, you know,
I was sexually abused as a.
Speaker 2: Child, which I was. And she said, well, you need
to repent of that.
Speaker 4: Whoa And like I said, in hindsight, I recognize how
demented that. But at the moment, but I said, I
was there, little lonely nineteen year old me, you know,
just desperate to belong like the something and they have
friends and to feel like I had a group of
people I belonged with. I just I kind of shut
down that little uga uga like wordings in the back
of my brain, like wordy warning will Roger, and just said,
you know, I repent of it, you know, because they
didn't really explain. The best I could unders standard is
that because they felt like I had been sexually active
in that way quote my goodness, that it had corrupted
me in some way and therefore I needed to repent
of that corruption.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a very generous description.
Speaker 4: That's the sense I've made of it, you know, because
you have. I mean, but some things you just can't explain.
And I think it's my quiet. I still don't think
I fully understand why that was part of that whole process.
So so I passed the test, though, and I made
it through their gauntlet of requirements, only to have to
be fully immerged, fully immersed, immersed to be baptized.
Speaker 2: Again. That's another for you listeners to aurn out of where.
Speaker 1: That's pretty heretical. Yes, you're baptized under the Son of
the Trinity. The church universally almost pretty much universally counts
as you know, you're good, it's real baptism.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, this church did not. They believe that unless
you were unless you submitted to a full immersion Baptist
baptism into that church, you were going to hell.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And that's what they believed, and that's what they taught,
and they were very unapologetic about it.
Speaker 1: And you were there because they were welcoming you, you know,
creating structure for your life.
Speaker 4: I was love bombed, you know, And like I said,
that I was being doctrinated and all I said, everything
in hindsight just makes so much more sense. So so
I was in this church, I said, and it started
taking over my life.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: They just kept demitting more and more of my time,
you know, more, trying to isolate me from people who
weren't in the church. There was a guy in the
church to actually stalk me for a while, you know,
there were there were a lot of issues, and this
the demands just became increasing, you know, confessing, you know,
submitting to my discipling, my disciple, ship partner they called them,
who was actually basically just a handler. And so thankfully
this was only like a three month excursion with this.
But in the meantime, I'm also working full time in
going to school full time in New York City, dealing
with a psychotic landlady and an exploding oven and no
heat water in the middle winter. I mean, I'm I'm
having like a stereotypical horrible New York City existence, right.
Speaker 2: And I'm in a cult on top of all of this. Right.
Speaker 4: So I finally decided I need to get out of
this just for a little while, and I went on
my way back to my hometown. I stopped at Ithaca,
New York to visit my freshman college roommate who had
transferred to Cornell when she was studying psychology, and so
she said, you know what they're going on, it sounds
like your life there is so crazy, like what is
happening with you? And so I, you know, began to
explain the things. And so when I mentioned the church,
she was like, tell me more about this church you're in,
and so I explained and she's like she she thought
about it for a minute. I think she was probably
deciding whether or not she say anything.
Speaker 2: But finally she's like, I think you're unical.
Speaker 4: And I said, what, no, this is This isn't a cult.
The church can't be a cult, you know. I'm like,
I believe Jesus and the Bible. She's like, no, seriously,
She's like, where's that a text meook?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the list of what they do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they has the criteria and we're reading every single one.
Speaker 2: I just sat there completely dumbfounded. I'm like, I'm a cult.
Oh no, what do I do?
Speaker 5: Fed chair Jay Palle seems like she's straight out of
reservoir Dogs, stuck in the middle the Washed Out on Wall.
Speaker 2: Street podcast with Chris Markowski.
Speaker 5: Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and
the economy and how it affects your wallet with inflation
on one side and unemployment on the other. Jay Palle's
acting clueless with a dual mandate coming in from both sides.
Speaker 2: There's not much else he can do.
Speaker 5: Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street,
it's affecting you financially.
Speaker 2: Be informed.
Speaker 5: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris
Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 2: So one of the.
Speaker 1: Steps from that to becoming a very orthodox pastor's wife.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So so how I got from there to here?
So when I went back to New York, I obviously
realized I need to get out of this church, and
so I basically just stopped communicating with them, and they
they stalked me, you know, because they knew my schedule.
Speaker 2: So that show this. Yeah, So they would show up
my workplace when I would get off of work.
Speaker 4: They would be wow outside of the classroom, like because
they thought I was going to hell. Yeah, you know,
And so in hindsight, I realized the reason for their zealousness.
You know, if you believe someone is going to hell,
you you should do everything you can to prevent that.
Speaker 1: Right, And so one night, I well, I do think
there's a theological thing right there, right, because Jesus is
the one who say people, if we're lucky, you know,
if we're blessed with the opportunity, he uses us.
Speaker 2: But that's his responsibility. I think that is the point
I would suggest there.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you, joy, that is a point, very well made,
very well received.
Speaker 2: But I need to stalk people out.
Speaker 4: Yes, he pursues, but you know, but you but you
even though you shouldn't stalk people, Yes, you should be
concerned when you know or you you believe people are damned.
Speaker 2: That's not something we should take lightly.
Speaker 4: So we my roommate I were coming home one night
after work and there were I think three or four
of them, like on the porch, and we saw them
from a distance, and she said, do you want me
to get rid of them? She was a Buddhist, I
think by the time she and I were rooming together.
She's basically atheist, and she was very much in New
Yorker at that point, and she said, you want to
get rid of them. I like, no, you know, this
needs to happen, because the cease to stop. Like I
really need to just have this conversation with that and
just tell them, you know, I'm done.
Speaker 2: It's over. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: And so she was got happy with that, but she's like, Okay,
I'll be in my room. Like she's like, you know,
yell if they get crazy and you like, come in there.
And I was like, no, it'll be fine. And so
I sat with them and we basically had what they
now would call a struggle session.
Speaker 2: Right, Oh my goodness. So we're sitting there there, you know,
telling sharing.
Speaker 4: All these scriptures with me and like, you know, we
don't want you to go to hell, and you know,
we're worried about your soul and all of this, and
I'm just I'm just dissociated, you know at that point,
because I just completely checked out, you know. And I
finally said to them, I'm.
Speaker 2: Just waiting for them to be done so you can
just tell them stop.
Speaker 4: And they're crying, you know, a man very emotional, and
I was like, I said, I was just checked out.
And finally I said to them, I said, I still
love the Lord and I still love Jesus but if
this is what God expects from me, I can't do this.
I'm like, what I'm being asked to do as a
Christian is impossible. And I said, and I feel like
it's better just to give up up than to keep
trying to fake being someone and something that I'm not.
And so they obviously that none of this went overwhell
at all, and they shune. You know, so once you're
out of the church, like no one's allowed to talk
to you anymore. And so I knew in that moment,
I was basically giving up, you know, my entire like
friends circle, you know, and people that had actually become
like sisters to me.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, so that was my sojourn in the ICOC.
Speaker 4: I learned much later that it's actually been banned from
almost every college campus on the face of the planet
because of their very aggressive recruiting tactics. And I've seen
some truly heartbreaking documentaries about people who've been in the
church that has it's just completely destroyed them and their families,
Like people have committed suicide.
Speaker 3: Over believe that God hated them because they weren't following
like the dictates of the church, and that since they
were going to Hell anyway, they might as well, just
like just awful, awful, heartbreaking things. When I saw a
couple of documentaries and heard these people testimonies, which were
many of them very similar to my own, you know,
I sent them to my husband Greg, and I said,
I seeing these all these years later helps me understand
appreciate how close I was to the precipice, because I
actually was suicidal, oh my goodness, when I was contemplating.
And that was one of the reasons why I decided
to get out of the city, because I.
Speaker 2: Just I felt like rubbish, because I.
Speaker 4: Was like, I can't even do these most basic things
that you know, I believed in that church that God
was requiring of me.
Speaker 2: You know, it was essentially perfection. You know, it was
very much workspace, like if you.
Speaker 4: Weren't checking all the boxes, then you were struggling your faith,
and you know, you were on the verge of possibly
like going to hell.
Speaker 2: It was very, very damaging in many ways.
Speaker 4: So by the time I met my husband, who is
I jokingly call him an off the boat German Lutheran.
You know, his grandma's name was Luthor, his dad's middle
Dave was Luthor.
Speaker 2: You know they're they're very Lutheran.
Speaker 4: And so by the time I've met him, I was
basically I still believed in God, I still believed in Jesus,
but I had no interest in church whatsoever, because obviously
by that point I had a lot of trust issues,
and you know, I didn't trust the church as an institution.
I didn't necessarily trust my own judgment and being able
to discern.
Speaker 2: Whether a church was was safe or not.
Speaker 4: And so by the time he and I met, I
was just I was like, I'm good with God, I'm
going with Jesus.
Speaker 2: I I'm done with church, and my church is just
a non starter for me.
Speaker 4: And so so we were dating, and we were dating
about a year I think.
Speaker 2: It was, and he called me up and was like,
we need to talk.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna over after work. And anyone who's ever data
knows you never want to hear those words. Yeah, person
you're dating.
Speaker 2: We never want to hear them. We need to talk.
They usually they think good.
Speaker 4: And so the long, the longest short of it is
that he broke up with me because I want to
go to church with him.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And he said, you know, if this relationship is his
any future, you know, we need to be in the
same spiritual path. You know, we need to be worshiping
the same church. You know, I want you know, the
tie ten percent of my income. You know, I want
my children to be you know, baptized and confirmed in
the church. And if you're not on that path with me,
then this relationship has no future.
Speaker 2: What a man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was not having some leadership, Yeah I was.
Speaker 2: I was not happy camper about it in the moment.
He knows lots, yep, Yeah, he's going to go there.
Ye yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And so you know, at the time, you know, I
I in my defense, I said, well, I didn't know
or understand how important that was to you, and now
you're basically telling me this. And he said, well, you
said three months ago you would go with me, and
you've shown no interest since. So I can only take
that to mean that this is not something you're ever
going to do. And so I said, you know, you know,
I have church issues. You know, I'm like, this isn't
It's hard for me to get over that hurdle, especially
because I come from like a childhood with abuse and
neglect and other issues.
Speaker 2: You know, I just in general, I had a lot of.
Speaker 4: Trust issues about any any authority really, just because I've
been so harmed by so many authority figures in my life,
whether personal or institutional, and so so.
Speaker 2: So we broke up.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I called him the next day. I stayed home from work.
I was just devastated. I stay on work. I call
him next day and I said, this conversation isn't over.
We need to talk again. And so I don't think
he wanted to. He came over and we basically reconciled,
and then I went to with him that Sunday. I
knew nothing about Lutherans, Like there was one Lutheran church
where I grew up, I don't know anyone who went there,
and because everywhere I grew up was basically Methodists or Catholic,
like that was it was like Italian Catholics and Swedish
Methodists and like that was it. And just for the record,
my my my mom's side, like my great grandmother for
examples of full blood sweet So so I knew a
lot about Swedes and not so much about thisism. I
knew a lot about Swedes, and my best friends growing
up were Italian Roman Catholics, so I knew quite a
bit about Catholicism as well.
Speaker 2: So I knew nothing about Lutherans. I didn't know what
to expect.
Speaker 4: I figured they were kind of like Catholics, they didn't
pray to Marian saints.
Speaker 2: Like that was like, that's pretty good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was my understanding Uthreds just based on my
knowledge of history because I'm a history nerd, and so
I kind of knew about Martin Luther and the Reformation,
how they.
Speaker 2: Broke away, Like I knew all of that.
Speaker 4: So so we went to church, and like I said,
I didn't know what to expect. You know, I've never
been to a church that followed the Divines risks before.
Speaker 2: That was all new to me. I've my listeners.
Speaker 1: That's a very traditional liturgical sort of church service in
which you know, you have scripture readings and you have
hymns and they're all in an order that people are
used to following.
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed, And so I was not familiar with that
because another churches I previously attended had done that. So
I've admitted I didn't really care for it because I
was like, Wow, this is like.
Speaker 2: Really boring, pretty boring.
Speaker 4: That's like, and Mike, and how does everyone know what's
going on, Like how do they know when the day
of the sids and when they're you know, But I
I've that's another conversation.
Speaker 2: I've grown to cherish the liturgy like so intensely. Me too. Yeah,
that's like a whole other journey. Yep.
Speaker 4: So so I went and it was funny because the
pastor at the church at the time used to give
a little sermon note outline notes, you know, that you
could fill in as you were, you know, listening to
the sermon. And so Greg Lean go over to me
and he's like, oh, you picked really interesting you know,
Sunday to come. And I was like, oh, He's like,
look at the sermon topic. And so the sermon topic
was marriage Biblical.
Speaker 1: Style, and I kind of one of those like serendipitous
Holy Spirit moments, Yes it really is.
Speaker 4: And so I kind of side eyed him, like what
are you saying because we were not talking. I mean,
the marriage had come up because of the whole church conversation,
but in general, marriage had not been a conversation we've
been having at that point anyway. And so that was
my introduction of the Lutheranism.
Speaker 2: And as we were leaving church. This is also into
experience to me that the pastor.
Speaker 4: Was there greeting everyone as they were coming out, and
so he introduced himself and.
Speaker 2: He's like, I would love to just meet up with.
Speaker 4: You and have coffee and just talk about your faith
journey and you know, give me an opportunity as there
any questions you might have about our faith. And I
I was like, really, like you want to just meet
up with me and like talk and like hear my
story and let me ask questions. Like this was completely
beyond paradigm like I was accustomed to, Like in any
other church I'd everman involved in, it's sort of like
the pastor was up here and like the people are
down here, and you don't like talk to the pastor,
you know.
Speaker 2: It's like you don't like hang out with him, you know,
and the most you definitely.
Speaker 4: Don't ask questions, you know, because that obviously is a
sign that you're struggling your faith if you're asking questions.
Speaker 2: And so I was just so impressed and excited.
Speaker 4: I was like, Wow, I actually get to like so
with the pastor and he's gonna talk to me, he's
gonna let me ask some questions.
Speaker 2: And so we did, and we met up.
Speaker 4: I was very late to find out I did not
need to get baptized again.
Speaker 2: For a third time. That was one of my first questions.
Speaker 4: Was like, do I need to get baptized again? And
I explained to him and he's like, no, I think
you're probably good. I'm like, I'm probably more baptized than
the average person at this point, probably are full a
version twice yep. So yeah, within a three year time period.
Golliegi and hindsight, it just it just kind of I
just it.
Speaker 2: Just makes me laugh.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, so we you know, so he answered
all my questions and you know, he's like, my door's
always open to you. Here's my phone number. And that
was really the first time I knew it understood what
a what a shepherd look like, and what a pastor
who is engaged with his with his congregants looks like
and cares about them as individuals.
Speaker 2: And so that really impressed me.
Speaker 4: And I also was just happy I could ask questions
and expressed doubts without feeling like I was going to
be judged or castigated in some way. That was also
a new experience for me. But obviously, you know, Lutheran
Church has been around so long.
Speaker 2: I mean, I had a lot to learn.
Speaker 4: Just about like Lutheranism in general, and so I started
going to the adult Confirmation classes, and Blessed Greg, I
didn't have my driver's lize at the time, so he
had to drive me there. And so so he was
coming to the class us and we were going through
I was going through a dual confirmation, and.
Speaker 2: I just could not get enough of it.
Speaker 4: I just was so just so hungry to learn from
God's word in a way that felt authentic and actually scriptural,
which was not had not been the case, especially in
the ICOC International Church of Christ. I recognize now that
they very much cherry picked scriptures a lot to like
conform to their tenets instead of the other way around.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so I.
Speaker 4: Just I just had this renewed zeal, you know, for
God and for his word and for worship and just
learning everything I could. Blessed Greg, I think sometimes I
don't think he recognized he was getting himself into because
the next thing, you know, we're doing coffee hour teaching
bb yes, and we're on the evangelism committee, and so
the next thing you.
Speaker 1: Know, you know, and then you know he's become a
pastor and that takes up and did a lot of
work and studying.
Speaker 4: I mean, so all of that was really God planning
the seeds, I think for us to be a pastor's family,
and I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, So for me, the spewers always say, well,
what is it about being Lutheran you love? And I said, well,
there's a couple of different.
Speaker 4: Things, I said, But for me, based on my experience,
one of the things I really appreciate about being Lutheran
it was the first time I was ever in a
church where I felt like I didn't have to check
my intellect at the door, and that I could, you know,
ask questions and wrestle with things.
Speaker 2: And you know, my relations I am, generally speaking like
not a very emotional person.
Speaker 4: And so for me, you know, a lot of my
relationship with the Lord is very intellectual, you know, and
the way I often seek him is through intellect actual means,
you know, like reading and studying his word, reading commentaries,
you know, reading Christian books, you know, reading books about
church history. And so for me, that's a lot of
how I engage with my faith. But you know, I
also still do have of emotion. You know, like there
was one morning I was reading a psalm and I
just suddenly burst into tears.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I pray.
Speaker 1: Actually, I mean I probably cry at least a little
bit almost steph Ea tonight that I'm praying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, so there's still a tenderness there.
Speaker 4: But I recognize, you know, that I was never going
to be the waving my hands in the air like crying,
and you know, I was just never going to be
that person.
Speaker 2: I was never going to be the person who was
like quote unquote.
Speaker 4: On fire for the Lord, and that that was okay,
you know, and that I could show up as who
and what He created me to be and not feel
like there was something wrong with me because of that,
because I wasn't quote unquote on fire for the Lord.
Speaker 2: And that, you know, just the just that the Lutherines isn't.
Speaker 4: There's just something just so calm, you know, and peaceful
and serene about it that I, as a person who
dealt with a lot of turmoil and struggle throughout my
life and therefore still wrestle with a lot of that internally,
just find very appealing. It's like it's the one place
in this entire world where I know what to expect
every single week, you know, and I can sit in
that pew, you know, and no matter what's going on
in the world around me, I know that the Lord
will minister to me like in that moment, you know,
through the sacraments, you know, and through hearing his word
you know, preached, and I.
Speaker 2: Just I just cherish it so much. And so I've
been a Luther about oh golly, I guess a little
over twenty years.
Speaker 4: Now, because of course, once I got confirmed, the marriage
is out of the table. And clearly it happened as well, yes,
and so yeah, so I got confirmed and we got
married the next year, and you know, and obviously, as
you know, our journey to becoming a pastor's family, that
was another you know, several years into our marriage. So
that wasn't necessarily on our radar all when we first
got married.
Speaker 2: So that was some it was a divine surprise.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, as I always laugh, I'm like, got
you your divine switch a ruse.
Speaker 2: I think he's into those, really is, I like it
really is. You're going one way and he's like, oh no, no, no, no,
we're heady, We're actually going this way. Yeah, surprise.
Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, Like the one thing I've come to
expect is that I can't expect anything I expect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the truth. But I love it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: I never want to get married.
Speaker 4: I never wanted to have children like me neither. Never
saw myself as a pastor's wife in a Nashville, Tennessee.
And so there's nothing about my life that looks even
remotely anything like I had planned for myself, and I'm
so grateful for that.
Speaker 1: Well, the last question here that I have has gone
a completely different topic, but I think our listeners would
be very interested in maybe a couple of I don't know,
bullet points or highlights you'd want to pull out from
all of your years in mainstream HarperCollins Publishing especially. I mean,
if you want to talk about kind of the women's
side of the market, if that's something that you know better.
But actually, if that's not your specialty, feel free to
talk about what your specialty is. But what are some
things that you would share with people who aren't in
that industry about.
Speaker 2: What you experienced?
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, Joy, that's a wonderful question, you know,
I have. I realized at this point in my career,
I have a very unusual depth and breadth of publishing experience.
I've worked in self publishing, I've worked in hybrid publishing,
which sort of sits in between the space of self
publishing traditional publishing.
Speaker 2: You know, I've also worked additional publishing. I myself, I
am a published author, you know.
Speaker 4: I've worked in leernals and newspapers, and book publishing, academic.
Speaker 2: Publishing, you know, you name it.
Speaker 4: It's like I really have done it all at this point,
especially from like an editorial perspective, and in writing as well,
because I published both fiction and nonfiction, and I've published
a couple of poems. I would never deign to call
myself a poet, however, So the thing that I think
is really interesting about publishing right now is that I feel,
and I feel like this is the.
Speaker 2: Case with most.
Speaker 4: Legacy media companies though, whether it's film, television, or publishing,
I think that they're having a midlife crisis, so to speak.
Speaker 2: Although I think publishing is way past midlife at this point.
Speaker 4: Maybe not, but you know, television and film definitely. And
I feel like all of the legacy institutions that create
our media are really having a bit of a crisis
right now, and I think that they're having difficult generating
original content. Everything's very derivative, you know, as you know,
I think they're having trouble.
Speaker 2: Like crafting.
Speaker 4: Projects that are intellectually stimulating and that have like a
certain level of depth.
Speaker 2: I think there's been a lot of.
Speaker 4: Dumbing down of content and that a lot of modern media,
and I would include publishing in this is always serving
more of like the least common denominator, like it. Just
as one example, you know, and Issa Harborcollins, they seem
to fall into this rut of publishing books by people
who had these very large social media fallowings and platforms.
And I always, I will be honest, I I generally
did not like that because I said, well, just because well, one,
just because they have a social media following, it doesn't
necessarily mean that those followers buy and read books, Like
maybe they just like to watch TikTok videos, you know,
I'm like, And the other thing is, just because they
have a platform doesn't mean they have anything meaningful to say,
to contribute to the world in a way that will
benefit other people.
Speaker 1: And so I love cat videos, you know, maybe not
a cultural contribution.
Speaker 4: Hey, now, don't be dissed on cat videos a very
tiny contribution I have. I have many of them bookmarked,
you know, for when I for what I need to
like decompress and or I need to laugh and be.
Speaker 2: Reminded that the world is silly place. But yes, but
just you know, the way it used to be publishing
is quite often you know, acquisitions.
Speaker 4: Editors are the people who decide generally, you know, they're
the ones receiving the proposals and trying to determine what
is going to be published. There used to be a
time when they would see like an author and see
the potential they had, and they were willing to bring
them on board and willing to work with them and
nurture them and grow them.
Speaker 2: And that's not the case anymore.
Speaker 4: It used to be that a publisher a partner with
an author and help build the author's platform, you know,
help grow their audience, help.
Speaker 2: Nurture their talent.
Speaker 4: Whereas now it's essentially that the author has to come
with all of that already in hand. And it's unfortunate
because you know where I used to sit, because I
used to help with the acquisitions. You know, there were
so many amazing projects brilliant, brilliant written things that we
had to say no to because the author didn't quote
unquote have a platform.
Speaker 2: And it was always just heartbreaking to me, you know.
And there were times, especially.
Speaker 4: If I knew the agent on the project, you know,
where I reach out to the agent and say, you know,
I know that my sales team is never going to
go for this because they were going to say they
don't have a platform and they're not going to give
me the numbers I need to acquire this project.
Speaker 2: But I think this project, in this book, deserves to
exist in the world. And I said, so, please encourage
your author, you know, even though we're not going to
be able to sign it, you know, even if at
the end of the day they have to self published,
please tell them, you know that this this is a
worthy project and that they need to pursue getting it
into the world in some way, you know, whatever that
looks like, even if it's not traditional publishing. And I
think it's interesting.
Speaker 4: I think traditional publishing is at a bit of a
watershed moment because I'm finding that even the authors I
work with who are being traditionally published are feeling a
little disillusioned about it. Yeah, you know, sometimes they'll say
things to me like what is their value add to
this whole process, you know, And I said, well, there's
two things. One is brand recognition, you know, for you
to be able to say, yes, I publish a book
with Simon and Schuster or HarperCollins or you know, Penguin
Random House. I mean the other thing is really distribution,
you know, and being able to get your book into
Barnes and Noble or you know, get it bumped up
on the Amazon rankings or get you know, international rights.
Thing of it is, you can do all of that
if you self publish or go through hyper publisher.
Speaker 2: It's just a lot of it just takes a lot
to do all that work. Yeah, and so, and I know,
even for me, it's interesting.
Speaker 4: I wasn't necessarily planning to go through a traditional publisher
for my own book, even you know, I know how
the sausage is made.
Speaker 2: And so I know what to expect from that process.
Speaker 4: But I you know, when it comes down to it,
I mean I just did not have the time, you know,
to project manage because I also know how much work
is involved with that because I used to project manage
all my titles at HarperCollins. But it's also a matter
of money, you know. It's like I did not have,
you know, the income to bootstrap you know, my own
book production.
Speaker 2: You know, and editorial and distribution and everything.
Speaker 4: So for at least this popular book, it really made
sense for me to go through a traditional publisher. And they,
bless them, have stewarded it beautifully.
Speaker 2: I tease them. When I signed on, I said, I
know just enough about all of this to be a problem.
And I said, but I hope, I hope I will
be a problem.
Speaker 4: Like but I do have very strong opinions about different
things regarding book publishing, like the paper and the cover
and little details. But they were very accommodating, and I'm
sash product. It's a very nice it's a very nice book.
So physically, yeah, so it'll be interested to see them publishing.
I think there's really an opportunity, especially for smaller publishers
right now, to really get in there and to find
that talent and to nurture it and to grow it.
And so I'm just I'm looking forward hopefully to a
time when publishing becomes more author centric again, and it's
very more focused on craft and just putting beautifully well
written books into the world instead of chasing the almighty dollar.
Speaker 2: I don't know, especially with corporate publishing.
Speaker 4: Sort of dominating, I don't know if that'll ever actually
be the case, but I hope that it is, because,
like I said, there's so many wonderful books that deserve
to exist in the world, but they just they just
can't find, you know, a home or someone who's willing
to take a chance on them.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the difficulty for the smaller publishers is
just kind of finding the audience of people who would
be interested in their types of books as well as
I mean the difficulty that all the corporate kind of
monolists have, which is that the Internet as well is
really kind of eroding people's attention.
Speaker 2: Spans for you know, for reading. I do think there
is like there's a there's.
Speaker 1: A niche of people who will always be readers like
you and me, and that is the kin So you
can make a great living about you know, finding those
people still, but the other probably know there's you know,
we we don't need to spend a lot of time,
but just with the kind of kind of stagnation of
the ideas that are being put forth people are moving
to where they can find other fresh, interesting ideas, but
the connection is a little bit difficult because it's again
controlled by social media at that point.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I would agree with that.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's interesting, you know, because you just you know, people
always ask me, well, how do I get on the
best seller list, you know, or they asked me lots
of different questions because you know, I have worked on
many bestsellers, and I always say, there is no share thing.
There really is no sure thing, you know. I've worked
on books by some of the most famous people in
the world, and they hardly register, you know, on the
national consciousness, you know, because either it's not the it's
like the wrong book at the wrong time, or it's
just a subject matter from that particular author that they're
maybe not interested in hearing from that person, or maybe
they're more known for A and they wrote a book
about BB, but no one really wants to hear about
B from them. So I think there's lots of reasons,
but you know, they're you know, so it's it's funny.
I laugh on my author. They said, trust me, if
there was a surefire formula to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would use it. Oh yeah, my publishers.
Speaker 4: I figured out that system, and they didn't have been
gaming it like till the cows come home.
Speaker 2: And I said, so, there really is no sure thing.
Speaker 4: And I said that all you can do is write
the best book that you possibly can do you possibly
can write, and just be, you know, be passionate about it,
and be passionate about the subject matter, and be willing
to tell every person you meet about it, and just
be you know, your your own book's biggest cheerleader, you know.
And I firmly believe that any book that is well
written will find its audience at some point.
Speaker 2: These people do who read? Will they? Word of mouth?
For sure? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Pass to each other, I mean, and that's how a
lot of people find books anymore, you know. It really
is through word of mouth recommendation. And you know, I
know a lot of the young ladies I used to
work with, the HarperCollins are very very voracious fiction readers,
and so they're all on the book talk and you know,
all the different things, and so they're constantly sharing book
recommendations to one another, in introducing one another to two
new authors, and so yeah, so I think that if
you do your job as an author you know, it
will find its audience, and you know, and other and
people will tell other people about it. I found, even
just for my own book, that's where the bulk of
my you know sales as far have come from is
just from people telling other people about it.
Speaker 1: Amanda Bauk is the author of One Nation Under God
Forty Devotions for Patriotic Women, a pastor's wife and a mother.
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me today and thank you for
having me. Joy, God bless you.
Speaker 1: Same to you, I'll write, audience, be lovers of freedom
and anxious for the fray