WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:02.279 I'm guessing though, you're going to get a flood of 2 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:06.280 gift packages containing Walmart time X watches from people who 3 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:08.199 say you don't know what time it is or something 4 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.119 like No. Of course, and I think too that I 5 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:13.320 can say that in my years. 6 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.679 Of public life, that I welcome this. 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:18.640 Kind of examination because people have got to know whether 8 00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:20.039 or not their president's a crup. 9 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.320 Well, I'm not a crup. It's the Ricochet Podcast with 10 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:25.960 Charles C. W. A. Cook and Steven Hayward and James Lellax. 11 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:29.320 Today we're going to be talking about misery. We will 12 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:33.640 have none of that here. Thank you. Let's episodes a podcast. 13 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:36.479 The objectives I've outlined to you again, I repeat them 14 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:38.359 because I see these reports of like as the use 15 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:39.960 of talk clear on what objectives are there. 16 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:41.880 We've been as us even bossy to be from the 17 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.399 very first night of what the objectives of this mission on. 18 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:46.679 We're going to destroy their factories that make missiles and 19 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.079 rockets and grown, We're going to destroy their navy. 20 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.240 We're going to destroy their air force, and we are 21 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:54.359 going to significantly destroy their missile launchers so they. 22 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.119 Can never hide behind these things to get a nuclear weapon. 23 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.960 Well, welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast, episode number seven 24 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.560 hundred and eighty two. Why don't you just mosing on 25 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:06.319 over at rigochet dot com and be a member. You 26 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:08.760 can be part of the most stimulating conversations and community 27 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:11.480 on the web. That place you've been looking for, that's Ricochet. 28 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:13.439 I'm James Lilax in the place that I was looking 29 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:18.200 for and found in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And it's a beautiful, cold, 30 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:20.400 crisp day out. There should be a little bit more 31 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:23.159 spring like, but you know, we had seventy five degrees 32 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:25.239 two days ago and today it's spring. All the flowers 33 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:29.519 in because it's below freezing. And then Stephen Hayward in California, 34 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:33.760 I presume in his bookline study with his skylight above him. 35 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:35.799 If you're watching the video, it's kind of funny. It 36 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:39.000 just looks like there's this sort of angelic beam of 37 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:43.000 heaven coming down into an illuminatu your nogin and explain 38 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:45.879 your insights and the rest of it. Charles Seedle, your 39 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:47.640 cook will be along in just a second. We'll have 40 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.599 to upgrade him for his tardiness and make him. We'll 41 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:52.439 be like the class. You know, when the when the 42 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:55.280 you know, the bad kid comes in late and the 43 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:56.799 teacher gives him the look and the rest of it, 44 00:01:56.799 --> 00:01:58.200 and he has to put a piece of paper down 45 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.719 explaining his absence. But before he gets here, let's settle 46 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:07.239 the Iran war. So Stephen President says, going to unleash 47 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:11.000 hell end quote on Iranian energy infrastructure maybe a good 48 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:15.400 idea if we want the state to thrive post liberation. 49 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:18.599 But it's a five day halt on strikes to open 50 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:21.639 negotiations about the strait and the rest of it. Everyone's 51 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.840 saying contradictory messages. Everybody is saying backing off, everybody's saying failure. 52 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:28.800 I just think that we ought not to believe anything 53 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.280 that we hear, because it's entirely possible that people are 54 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.039 saying things in public that actually don't comport with what's 55 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:36.680 going on in private. There's smoking, misdirection and the rest 56 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:38.240 of it. That would seem to be the canny thing 57 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:39.360 to do in war. 58 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:43.599 No, I mean, there's several scenarios you can play out 59 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.759 that are quite plausible. And yeah, I don't know anything either. 60 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:48.039 I'll just say I have a general rule right now, 61 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:51.560 which is, well, I'll put it this way, how can 62 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:53.840 we tell that we are winning this war very strongly, 63 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.879 as someone might say, because the media says it's a quagmire, 64 00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.360 right right, I mean really, I think you can't go 65 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.759 too far wrong saying whatever the media says, the opposite 66 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:04.439 is probably closer to the truth. Now, I do think 67 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:08.360 that this sort of day to day bouncing ball. Maybe 68 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:11.120 it's Trump trying to call them the markets. Maybe he's 69 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:13.840 playing for time until the eighty second airborne gets in 70 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.319 position so they can do a serious landing to take 71 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:20.400 carg Island. I think carg Island is again, I don't 72 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:22.240 you know, I don't know anything about this, really, I 73 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.039 don't have deep expertise. 74 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.240 But never stopped any of us before, of course. 75 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:26.680 Not that's right. 76 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:28.719 So I mean, look, I think it's, uh, it's game 77 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.319 over for the Iranian economy and their leverage if we 78 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:32.960 take their main oil terminal. 79 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:33.680 Uh. 80 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:36.080 And and now you know, we can force the straights 81 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.159 open if we want. They're the risks, of course. 82 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:38.479 Uh. 83 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:41.840 And then I think maybe he's thinking, well, maybe we 84 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:45.199 kill enough Iranians to destroy enough places where they're finally 85 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:47.599 going to come to their senses and make a sensible deal, 86 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:49.439 which right now they seem to be resisting. So I 87 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.000 don't know what's happening either, But you know, the track 88 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:55.319 record so far is you never know with Trump, right, 89 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:57.520 we now know before the war started that he was 90 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.360 playing for time while they got everything in order and 91 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.039 really forming a serious battle plan that they said would 92 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:06.000 be four to six weeks of taking out the And 93 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:06.680 so I don't know. 94 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.840 Maybe Iron surprised us by attacking. 95 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:11.120 So many of its neighbors as hard as they have. 96 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.039 I'm not sure if we expected that or not. I again, 97 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:17.839 I don't know, but I'm still reasonably confident. I know 98 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.079 Charlie thinks the clock is running, and I'm starting to 99 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:23.480 warm up to this point of view that the domestic 100 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.920 politics are going to get increasingly difficult for Trump just 101 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:32.120 because but right now, I'm just going to sit back and, 102 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:33.839 as someone likes to say, we'll just have to see 103 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:34.399 what happens. 104 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:37.240 Indeed, when you say they're going to strike a deal 105 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:40.360 with the Iranians, who exactly? I think, well, right, that's 106 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:42.959 the question. Who's left. Are we going to be negotiating 107 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:45.600 with mull as we are not? Are we going to 108 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:47.759 have to probably hold our nose and talk to some 109 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:49.800 people that we wouldn't like to because they may have 110 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:52.920 had something to do, but they're you know, the whole 111 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:55.959 argument about whether debathification was the necessary thing to do 112 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:57.759 in a rock and you know, whether or not they 113 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.000 should have left a structure in place and then just plug, 114 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:02.759 you know, our strong man in as opposed to doing 115 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:05.360 what they did. That's something for history to decide something. 116 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.360 Well, you know, something I've not heard anybody talk about 117 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:13.920 that surprises me a little bit is recognizing a new 118 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.399 government in other words, like we did in World War 119 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.279 Two by recognizing the gaul as the legitimate government of 120 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:21.720 France or you know, the Polish government in exile and 121 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.839 so forth. I don't know why we aren't saying something 122 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.680 like or thinking about saying, gosh, there's no more government 123 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:28.079 in Iran. 124 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:30.959 All their leaders are gone. It's chaos. We don't even 125 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:32.000 know who to negotiate with. 126 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.279 And there is a plan with the former shaw Son 127 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:39.000 that I've seen, and supposedly he is ready to step 128 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.759 up and organize a government, a transitional government. 129 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:43.959 Why why aren't we thinking about saying. 130 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.639 We now recognize this is the legitimate government of Iran 131 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.759 And of course it's a you know, bold political move. 132 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.120 And how does that actually work anymore. I don't know, 133 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.519 but it's something that I think could be interesting to try. 134 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:56.879 Maybe the fear is it just starts a civil war 135 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:58.839 in Iran, but that may happen anyway. 136 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:01.759 Well, joy us with two cold buckets of water to 137 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:05.199 tell us why if is sticking? It is? Charles W. Cook, Charlie, 138 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.279 how are you doing good? How are you so you're 139 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:10.639 saying the clock is ticking? That time is of the 140 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:14.160 essence people are calling it a quagmire? Is if the 141 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:18.079 definition from modern Quakemier isn't up in Ukraine, which would 142 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:22.839 seem to be quagmarish. It's not a quagmire at all. 143 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:25.480 It's just been and it's been going on curiously off stage, 144 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:27.680 it feels like for quite some time now. But you 145 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:31.879 think that domestic political calculations are going to enter into it. 146 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:32.600 Tell us why? 147 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.720 Well, partly because the war was never discussed or debated 148 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:39.480 or explained. 149 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:40.839 Detail. 150 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:46.519 Partly because Trump does have a history of starting things 151 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:51.079 capriciously and ending things capriciously. I don't mean by that 152 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.800 this term you see thrown around taco. Trump always chickens out, 153 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.279 but he is bothered by the stage of the bond 154 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:01.360 markets that the stock market, oil and so on. And 155 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.160 when you haven't laid out a clear plan and you 156 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.160 don't have the public on your side, which he doesn't, 157 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.480 then those things loom large. 158 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.319 I have gone, No, there should be more bully pulpiting 159 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.600 going on. Don't you think there should be more explainers? 160 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:20.800 There should be a speech from the Oval Office with 161 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.199 flags behind. That's kind of what I want more of. 162 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:28.759 Well, I do in theory and in practice, I think 163 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:33.560 he should have done it. Irrespective, but his ability to 164 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:40.079 stick to a topic is, let's say, limited, so I 165 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:45.720 slightly wonder whether it would have been as useful as say, 166 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:49.279 I President Reagan had done it. But yeah, I do 167 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:51.600 think he should have done that. And I must say, 168 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.680 for those who think that I'm couching some hidden opposition 169 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.600 to the war in these criticisms, I've become more hawkish 170 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.480 as this gone on, not less. I was just saying 171 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.839 as much on the Editors podcast. I think that there 172 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:11.000 is absolutely no doubt that the case against Iran is solid. 173 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.240 If the big problem with Iraq was that many of 174 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.800 the claims that were made weren't true, either at the 175 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.240 time they were made or turned out to be untrue, 176 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:25.279 that's not true of Iran. The Iranian regime is exactly 177 00:08:25.319 --> 00:08:29.879 as described. The Iranians were producing weapons that they were 178 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:35.159 not allowed to have. The Iranians did for years kill Americans, 179 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.519 and I've had the last one really emphasized to me 180 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:41.039 in the last few weeks when I've spoken to veterans 181 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:42.879 about this. I live in an area full of veterans, 182 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:45.720 jackson Ville's and Naval Base. Also veterans have come to 183 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:47.519 some of the events that I've put on in the 184 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:50.600 last two or three weeks. And yeah, they're self selecting 185 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:55.120 conservatives by definition at those events less so here, but 186 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:59.279 all of them, all of them are pumped because they 187 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:00.600 also the same thing. 188 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:02.759 Especially those who served in a rock in Afghanistan. 189 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.559 Those guys killed my friends. This isn't debatable. The question 190 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.039 is whether we should go in sure, and how we 191 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.279 should do it. But I've become more hawkish because I 192 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.279 don't think that there is a strong case against hitting 193 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.480 Iran on the basis that Iran is bad. 194 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:22.480 It is right, I agree it. 195 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:27.679 But the thing about James point about a you know, 196 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.039 an Oval office speech with the flags behind you, I 197 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.679 think that way too, because I remember, you know Reagan 198 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:36.919 or you know Nixon, earlier presidents. Trump's not very good 199 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.159 at those, you know, he's sort of stiff the few 200 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.480 times he's tried it. I also think it does not 201 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:43.799 get the audience that used to get right. It used 202 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:45.399 to be when there were only three networks that did 203 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:48.159 the so called roadblock right. So the wherever you turn 204 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:49.720 on your TV, you're going to get the president for 205 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:52.080 half an hour or an hour, and that's not true anymore. 206 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.240 So I don't know what works anymore. 207 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.360 The crowded media landscape and are sort of customizing our tainment. 208 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.919 Who watches TV. Everybody's on TikTok or Instagram or whatever. 209 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:07.519 So I don't know. I think it's a harder communications environment. 210 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.320 That's not to excuse Trump the administration, Charlie for what 211 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:13.720 you say of having a coherent message. I do worry 212 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.360 that at the back of that is Trump's improvisational characteristics, 213 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.480 that what he wants above all else is for Trump 214 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:22.799 to win or be able to claim a win, and 215 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:25.840 if that means leaving the current regime in place with 216 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.799 what looked like acceptable terms, he would do that, even 217 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.279 after saying, you know, in January, we are coming to 218 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:34.480 help the Iranian people throw off this evil regime. 219 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:36.720 Well, you know which is it? We need to either 220 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.399 see it through or something else. I don't know it. 221 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:43.200 It is perplexing and troubling. 222 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.279 Yeah, to leave the regime in place at the end 223 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.120 of all of this would be not a stab at 224 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:51.159 the back. I hate that phrase. It would be a 225 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.799 gross abrogation of duty. Now that you start this thing, 226 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:55.919 I mean's one of those of you break it, you 227 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:57.720 owned things, as Colin Paul used to say. Of course, 228 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:04.840 nobody can quotes him that much anymore. Yeah, Supreme Court 229 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:08.200 Scota is going to hear arguments on birthright citizenship. I 230 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.240 love the name of this. In this case it's Trump v. Barbara, 231 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.679 which just somehow sums up our age more than anything else. 232 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.159 Which one of you constitutional scholars would like to take 233 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:20.279 a crack at this and tell and think, reading your 234 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:21.919 tea leaves which way you think it's going to go. 235 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:26.720 I think you should start, Steve, all right, Well, I'll 236 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:27.240 give it a try. 237 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:30.600 I haven't been keeping up with the briefs on this case. Yeah, 238 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:32.639 it's going to be argued I think Thursday this week. 239 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.960 I haven't been keeping up with the briefs. One thing 240 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.840 that struck me though, is I should make pub explain 241 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.559 for listeners. The clause of the fourteenth Amendment, what they 242 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:44.960 call the citizenship clause, says, all persons born are naturalized 243 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:50.399 in the United States comma and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. 244 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.159 Comma shall be for whatever the rest of it says. 245 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:56.840 That clause subject to the jurisdiction thereof has become very 246 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.440 controversial in recent years. It's long been thought that that 247 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.440 meant an exclusion, say of diplomats. Right, if you're a diplomat, 248 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:06.200 you're subject to the jurisdiction of your home country. So 249 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.080 if you have kids born, why you're posted in Washington 250 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:12.799 or New York or something, they don't have birthright citizenship. 251 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:14.759 But there's active debate. 252 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:17.960 About whether that meant, for example, should include the modern 253 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.399 phenomenon of birth tourism. Right, there's a thriving industry out 254 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:24.399 here in California of your rich Chinese mothers come over 255 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:26.960 here to have their babies born in Orange County or 256 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.360 Beverly Hills. Never mind, you know, poor Mexicans crossing the 257 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:33.000 border and then they fly back home to China and 258 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:36.279 now they have a child with entitlement to an American passport, 259 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.919 and all that would come with that, including ways of 260 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.519 getting assets out of the country later on and so forth. 261 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.080 Well, are these people who come here for a week 262 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.480 to have a child born? Are they really subject to 263 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.360 the jurisdiction of the United States in a meaningful sense? 264 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.399 Now saying that they're not, and that the expansive understanding 265 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.679 of birthright citizenship that we had for a long time 266 00:12:57.799 --> 00:12:59.159 is challengeable. 267 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.720 Had been a friend a very few, some of them 268 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.000 friends of mine, like John Eastman's been arguing this for 269 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:08.360 thirty years. But the view has been spreading amongst a 270 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:12.000 lot of other serious constitutional scholars. Illin Worman, a young 271 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:16.000 guy up there near you in Minnesota. James has written 272 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:18.600 very strongly about this. Richard Epstein, I believe has come 273 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:20.480 around to this point of view. I think he has. Charlie, 274 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:23.720 you can't keep up with the copious flood of Richard's verbiage. 275 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:26.879 Richard wrote forty seven thousand words about that. 276 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:30.039 Yeah, right, right, So, And the point is is that 277 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.519 the view that well, wait a minute, maybe we should 278 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.960 And really there's only one case about it from the 279 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.720 eighteen nineties that everyone says settled the matter. But I 280 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.600 think if you look closer, it's not a complete slam 281 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:45.000 dunk the Wong Kim r. Case, I think was called 282 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.399 been a while since I've read all these. So the 283 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.840 last thing I'll say, and then Charlie can correct and 284 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.200 fill in and add to it, is a lot of 285 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.879 people are saying they might not reach the constitutional question 286 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:58.000 of that clause in the fourteenth Amendment because there might 287 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.840 be some statutory grounds where they might reject the challenge 288 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.480 and thus leave the deeper challenge for another day, which 289 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.600 I think would be unfortunate. But we are asking the 290 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:10.039 Court to do an awful lot right now under President Trump. 291 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.559 I think there are a couple of things here that 292 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.000 interests me. The first is I hear it said quite 293 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.360 often that one of the big problems with the Trump 294 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:31.480 administration is that it asks questions constitutionally that have been settled. 295 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:36.679 I think that's wrong in the sense that there is 296 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:40.639 a paradox within our constitutional order, and that is that 297 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.080 we are, and the lower courts are, and the governments 298 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.360 are obliged to follow the Constitution and to follow Supreme 299 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:49.960 Court President. But if you think that that Supreme Court 300 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.399 president is grievously wrong, the only way that you can 301 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.200 get it hurt is to do something that violates it, 302 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:58.919 as we of course learned in the most famous case 303 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:03.600 of all Brown brought of education. And so if, for example, 304 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.279 like the state of Florida, and I agree with him 305 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.159 on this, even though I'm not fond of the policy, 306 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.960 you think that basically every single Supreme Court pronouncement in 307 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.919 the last seventy years on the death penalty is complete nonsense, 308 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:17.039 then the only way that you can get it heard 309 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:22.080 again is to pass a law that contradicts it. Well, 310 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:30.919 Trump thinks or hopes that our birthright citizenship presidents are wrong, 311 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.039 and the only way you can really get around to 312 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.440 determining whether or not he's right at the Court hasn't 313 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:42.120 been heard for a long time is to do something. 314 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:46.279 And in his case, he passed an executive order, which 315 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:51.200 is not a law, but which has the effect of 316 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:56.080 bringing up the matter. So I'm not angry with Trump 317 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:58.279 for having done this in the way that some are. 318 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:03.879 That said, I do think that he's probably wrong. Certainly, 319 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:10.639 I think he is wrong to think he can do 320 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:13.840 it via executive order. So the maximalist case against Trump 321 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.240 is that the Fourteenth Amendment mandates birthright citizenship and subject 322 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.440 to the jurisdiction thereof just means diplomats and so forth, 323 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:23.960 and therefore there's nothing anyone can do about it unless 324 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.039 we amend the Constitution. We have birthright citizenship. Maybe it's 325 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:28.799 a terrible policy. I actually think it is. 326 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.960 But that's the constitution. Deal with it. 327 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:35.000 And then it's this third way argument that I've become 328 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.320 a little more sympathetic to having read the amicus briefs, 329 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:43.240 which is that no, the fourteenth Amendment does not mandate 330 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:47.399 birthright citizenship, but changes to the meaning of subject to 331 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.879 the jurisdiction there are have to be made by Congress, 332 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.799 and Congress can decide who is eligible for birthright citizenship 333 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:57.320 and who is not. And that argument has been made 334 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:01.080 with increasing frequency, and I think with increasing quality, and 335 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:04.039 I think there's some truth to that. If that's the case, 336 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.240 the Supreme Court will have to say that though, because 337 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.640 Trump didn't get a law pass and won't get a 338 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.640 law passed unless the Republicans were to say, boris the 339 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.960 filibuster and they get every single person on site to 340 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.720 change this, which isn't going to happen, and not with 341 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.160 fifty three vote, So he's not going to get his 342 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:20.680 own way. But I don't really resent him for trying, 343 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.319 because Steve's right, the last time this was heard in 344 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:26.319 ernest was one Kim Mark, which was in the late 345 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.519 nineteenth century. So it's totally reasonable to put together a 346 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.279 brief and say I think this is wrong. As long 347 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.799 as you then respect the law when it's been adjudicated, 348 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:35.680 I'd likely. 349 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.039 To be an executive order that banishes the income tax. 350 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:42.720 You go back, right, James. You and I grew up 351 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.960 with that great cliche in the sixties. It began every 352 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.640 New York Times editorial. Any country that can land a 353 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:49.240 man on the. 354 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.079 Moon can solve x problem. 355 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:53.799 Yes, And my favorite version was any country that can 356 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.440 land a man on the moon can abolish the income tax. 357 00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:59.079 We never heard that one for some reason. 358 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.880 Unfortunately, No, because the thing that I was bothered me 359 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.240 loving to put a man in the moon. Why I 360 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.319 can't do this? Well, because putting a man in the 361 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.480 moon is a very specific objective with a very specific 362 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.200 set of technical requirements. 363 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:11.880 Uh. 364 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.720 And it's uh, it's it's it's something you sit down 365 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:16.200 to do with slide rules and the rest of it. 366 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.640 And so yes, but I mean it's, well, I guess 367 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.440 what we can't do right now? What's that? Yeah? 368 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:22.240 Well, I'm on the moon. 369 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.000 Well, you know, man, my fingers are crossed about this 370 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.160 next one. They really are, they really really, But we'll 371 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:29.680 get to that in point. If I may change the 372 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.000 subject for a second, gentlemen, I would like to discuss 373 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.079 the fact that it's Friday and that means that I'm 374 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.200 going to have pizza. And no, my friends, I am 375 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.559 not going into an ad. The local grocery store is 376 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.240 having a bogo for pizza. And there are two things 377 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.680 about that. One, I hate the term bogo because it's wrong. 378 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:46.839 Buy one, get one. Well that's that's the nature of 379 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.240 every commercial transaction, which you mean is buy one, get 380 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.599 one free, which would be bog off. But you never 381 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.279 hear bog off. You just hear bogo. But I was 382 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:56.480 standing there yesterday and I was beholding the range of 383 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.119 frozen pizzas that we have. It's extraordinary how many there are, 384 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.759 and how good so many there are. I grew up 385 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:05.680 in fargan nor At Dakota, where Pinky's pizza was the standard, 386 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.440 and it was one of those saltine crusted pizzas with 387 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.640 little cups of Greece. You could, you could, you could, 388 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:14.240 you could grease the tread of a Sherman tank with 389 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.319 one of those pizzas. But it was good. But now 390 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.000 I look with what we have and it's extraordinary, how blessed 391 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.039 we are in the frozen pizza department. And I can 392 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:24.880 look at all around life and find that meant you 393 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.759 find manifestation of that Abundon's absolutely everywhere that I look, 394 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.960 and it makes me happy. And that brings us to 395 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.400 our guest. Our guest is an English American conservative journalist. 396 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:36.839 He's a luminary at National Review, don't you know. He's 397 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.359 a graduate of Lady Margaret Hall at Oxford and he's 398 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.680 the author of the Conservatorian Manifesto. In addition to the 399 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.319 National Review, of course, he's written for The New York 400 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:46.519 Times and The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and other 401 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.200