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Speaker 1: I'm guessing though, you're going to get a flood of

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gift packages containing Walmart time X watches from people who

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say you don't know what time it is or something

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like No. Of course, and I think too that I

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can say that in my years.

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Speaker 2: Of public life, that I welcome this.

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Speaker 1: Kind of examination because people have got to know whether

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or not their president's a crup.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm not a crup. It's the Ricochet Podcast with

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Charles C. W. A. Cook and Steven Hayward and James Lellax.

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Today we're going to be talking about misery. We will

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have none of that here. Thank you. Let's episodes a podcast.

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Speaker 2: The objectives I've outlined to you again, I repeat them

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because I see these reports of like as the use

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of talk clear on what objectives are there.

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Speaker 1: We've been as us even bossy to be from the

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very first night of what the objectives of this mission on.

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Speaker 2: We're going to destroy their factories that make missiles and

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rockets and grown, We're going to destroy their navy.

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Speaker 1: We're going to destroy their air force, and we are

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going to significantly destroy their missile launchers so they.

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Speaker 2: Can never hide behind these things to get a nuclear weapon.

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Speaker 3: Well, welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast, episode number seven

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hundred and eighty two. Why don't you just mosing on

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over at rigochet dot com and be a member. You

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can be part of the most stimulating conversations and community

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on the web. That place you've been looking for, that's Ricochet.

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I'm James Lilax in the place that I was looking

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for and found in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And it's a beautiful, cold,

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crisp day out. There should be a little bit more

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spring like, but you know, we had seventy five degrees

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two days ago and today it's spring. All the flowers

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in because it's below freezing. And then Stephen Hayward in California,

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I presume in his bookline study with his skylight above him.

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If you're watching the video, it's kind of funny. It

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just looks like there's this sort of angelic beam of

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heaven coming down into an illuminatu your nogin and explain

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your insights and the rest of it. Charles Seedle, your

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cook will be along in just a second. We'll have

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to upgrade him for his tardiness and make him. We'll

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be like the class. You know, when the when the

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you know, the bad kid comes in late and the

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teacher gives him the look and the rest of it,

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and he has to put a piece of paper down

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explaining his absence. But before he gets here, let's settle

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the Iran war. So Stephen President says, going to unleash

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hell end quote on Iranian energy infrastructure maybe a good

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idea if we want the state to thrive post liberation.

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But it's a five day halt on strikes to open

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negotiations about the strait and the rest of it. Everyone's

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saying contradictory messages. Everybody is saying backing off, everybody's saying failure.

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I just think that we ought not to believe anything

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that we hear, because it's entirely possible that people are

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saying things in public that actually don't comport with what's

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going on in private. There's smoking, misdirection and the rest

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of it. That would seem to be the canny thing

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to do in war.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, there's several scenarios you can play out

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that are quite plausible. And yeah, I don't know anything either.

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I'll just say I have a general rule right now,

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which is, well, I'll put it this way, how can

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we tell that we are winning this war very strongly,

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as someone might say, because the media says it's a quagmire,

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right right, I mean really, I think you can't go

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too far wrong saying whatever the media says, the opposite

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is probably closer to the truth. Now, I do think

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that this sort of day to day bouncing ball. Maybe

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it's Trump trying to call them the markets. Maybe he's

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playing for time until the eighty second airborne gets in

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position so they can do a serious landing to take

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carg Island. I think carg Island is again, I don't

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you know, I don't know anything about this, really, I

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don't have deep expertise.

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Speaker 3: But never stopped any of us before, of course.

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Speaker 4: Not that's right.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, look, I think it's, uh, it's game

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over for the Iranian economy and their leverage if we

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take their main oil terminal.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And and now you know, we can force the straights

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open if we want. They're the risks, of course.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then I think maybe he's thinking, well, maybe we

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kill enough Iranians to destroy enough places where they're finally

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going to come to their senses and make a sensible deal,

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which right now they seem to be resisting. So I

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don't know what's happening either, But you know, the track

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record so far is you never know with Trump, right,

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we now know before the war started that he was

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playing for time while they got everything in order and

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really forming a serious battle plan that they said would

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be four to six weeks of taking out the And

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so I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Maybe Iron surprised us by attacking.

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Speaker 1: So many of its neighbors as hard as they have.

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I'm not sure if we expected that or not. I again,

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I don't know, but I'm still reasonably confident. I know

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Charlie thinks the clock is running, and I'm starting to

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warm up to this point of view that the domestic

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politics are going to get increasingly difficult for Trump just

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because but right now, I'm just going to sit back and,

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as someone likes to say, we'll just have to see

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what happens.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, when you say they're going to strike a deal

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with the Iranians, who exactly? I think, well, right, that's

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the question. Who's left. Are we going to be negotiating

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with mull as we are not? Are we going to

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have to probably hold our nose and talk to some

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people that we wouldn't like to because they may have

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had something to do, but they're you know, the whole

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argument about whether debathification was the necessary thing to do

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in a rock and you know, whether or not they

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should have left a structure in place and then just plug,

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you know, our strong man in as opposed to doing

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what they did. That's something for history to decide something.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, something I've not heard anybody talk about

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that surprises me a little bit is recognizing a new

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government in other words, like we did in World War

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Two by recognizing the gaul as the legitimate government of

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France or you know, the Polish government in exile and

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so forth. I don't know why we aren't saying something

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like or thinking about saying, gosh, there's no more government

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in Iran.

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Speaker 4: All their leaders are gone. It's chaos. We don't even

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know who to negotiate with.

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Speaker 1: And there is a plan with the former shaw Son

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that I've seen, and supposedly he is ready to step

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up and organize a government, a transitional government.

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Speaker 4: Why why aren't we thinking about saying.

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Speaker 1: We now recognize this is the legitimate government of Iran

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And of course it's a you know, bold political move.

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And how does that actually work anymore. I don't know,

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but it's something that I think could be interesting to try.

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Maybe the fear is it just starts a civil war

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in Iran, but that may happen anyway.

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Speaker 3: Well, joy us with two cold buckets of water to

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tell us why if is sticking? It is? Charles W. Cook, Charlie,

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how are you doing good? How are you so you're

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saying the clock is ticking? That time is of the

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essence people are calling it a quagmire? Is if the

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definition from modern Quakemier isn't up in Ukraine, which would

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seem to be quagmarish. It's not a quagmire at all.

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It's just been and it's been going on curiously off stage,

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it feels like for quite some time now. But you

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think that domestic political calculations are going to enter into it.

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Tell us why?

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Speaker 5: Well, partly because the war was never discussed or debated

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or explained.

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Speaker 3: Detail.

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Speaker 5: Partly because Trump does have a history of starting things

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capriciously and ending things capriciously. I don't mean by that

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this term you see thrown around taco. Trump always chickens out,

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but he is bothered by the stage of the bond

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markets that the stock market, oil and so on. And

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when you haven't laid out a clear plan and you

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don't have the public on your side, which he doesn't,

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then those things loom large.

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Speaker 3: I have gone, No, there should be more bully pulpiting

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going on. Don't you think there should be more explainers?

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There should be a speech from the Oval Office with

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flags behind. That's kind of what I want more of.

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Speaker 5: Well, I do in theory and in practice, I think

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he should have done it. Irrespective, but his ability to

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stick to a topic is, let's say, limited, so I

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slightly wonder whether it would have been as useful as say,

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I President Reagan had done it. But yeah, I do

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think he should have done that. And I must say,

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for those who think that I'm couching some hidden opposition

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to the war in these criticisms, I've become more hawkish

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as this gone on, not less. I was just saying

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as much on the Editors podcast. I think that there

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is absolutely no doubt that the case against Iran is solid.

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If the big problem with Iraq was that many of

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the claims that were made weren't true, either at the

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time they were made or turned out to be untrue,

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that's not true of Iran. The Iranian regime is exactly

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as described. The Iranians were producing weapons that they were

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not allowed to have. The Iranians did for years kill Americans,

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and I've had the last one really emphasized to me

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in the last few weeks when I've spoken to veterans

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about this. I live in an area full of veterans,

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jackson Ville's and Naval Base. Also veterans have come to

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some of the events that I've put on in the

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last two or three weeks. And yeah, they're self selecting

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conservatives by definition at those events less so here, but

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all of them, all of them are pumped because they

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also the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Especially those who served in a rock in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 5: Those guys killed my friends. This isn't debatable. The question

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is whether we should go in sure, and how we

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should do it. But I've become more hawkish because I

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don't think that there is a strong case against hitting

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Iran on the basis that Iran is bad.

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Speaker 4: It is right, I agree it.

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Speaker 1: But the thing about James point about a you know,

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an Oval office speech with the flags behind you, I

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think that way too, because I remember, you know Reagan

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or you know Nixon, earlier presidents. Trump's not very good

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at those, you know, he's sort of stiff the few

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times he's tried it. I also think it does not

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get the audience that used to get right. It used

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to be when there were only three networks that did

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the so called roadblock right. So the wherever you turn

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on your TV, you're going to get the president for

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half an hour or an hour, and that's not true anymore.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know what works anymore.

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Speaker 1: The crowded media landscape and are sort of customizing our tainment.

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Who watches TV. Everybody's on TikTok or Instagram or whatever.

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So I don't know. I think it's a harder communications environment.

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That's not to excuse Trump the administration, Charlie for what

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you say of having a coherent message. I do worry

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that at the back of that is Trump's improvisational characteristics,

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that what he wants above all else is for Trump

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to win or be able to claim a win, and

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if that means leaving the current regime in place with

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what looked like acceptable terms, he would do that, even

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after saying, you know, in January, we are coming to

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help the Iranian people throw off this evil regime.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know which is it? We need to either

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see it through or something else. I don't know it.

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It is perplexing and troubling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, to leave the regime in place at the end

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of all of this would be not a stab at

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the back. I hate that phrase. It would be a

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gross abrogation of duty. Now that you start this thing,

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I mean's one of those of you break it, you

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owned things, as Colin Paul used to say. Of course,

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nobody can quotes him that much anymore. Yeah, Supreme Court

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Scota is going to hear arguments on birthright citizenship. I

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love the name of this. In this case it's Trump v. Barbara,

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which just somehow sums up our age more than anything else.

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Which one of you constitutional scholars would like to take

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a crack at this and tell and think, reading your

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tea leaves which way you think it's going to go.

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Speaker 5: I think you should start, Steve, all right, Well, I'll

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give it a try.

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Speaker 1: I haven't been keeping up with the briefs on this case. Yeah,

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it's going to be argued I think Thursday this week.

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I haven't been keeping up with the briefs. One thing

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that struck me though, is I should make pub explain

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for listeners. The clause of the fourteenth Amendment, what they

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call the citizenship clause, says, all persons born are naturalized

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in the United States comma and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.

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Comma shall be for whatever the rest of it says.

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That clause subject to the jurisdiction thereof has become very

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controversial in recent years. It's long been thought that that

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meant an exclusion, say of diplomats. Right, if you're a diplomat,

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you're subject to the jurisdiction of your home country. So

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if you have kids born, why you're posted in Washington

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or New York or something, they don't have birthright citizenship.

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Speaker 4: But there's active debate.

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Speaker 1: About whether that meant, for example, should include the modern

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phenomenon of birth tourism. Right, there's a thriving industry out

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here in California of your rich Chinese mothers come over

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here to have their babies born in Orange County or

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Beverly Hills. Never mind, you know, poor Mexicans crossing the

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border and then they fly back home to China and

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now they have a child with entitlement to an American passport,

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and all that would come with that, including ways of

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getting assets out of the country later on and so forth.

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Speaker 4: Well, are these people who come here for a week

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to have a child born? Are they really subject to

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the jurisdiction of the United States in a meaningful sense?

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Now saying that they're not, and that the expansive understanding

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of birthright citizenship that we had for a long time

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is challengeable.

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Speaker 1: Had been a friend a very few, some of them

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friends of mine, like John Eastman's been arguing this for

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thirty years. But the view has been spreading amongst a

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lot of other serious constitutional scholars. Illin Worman, a young

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guy up there near you in Minnesota. James has written

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very strongly about this. Richard Epstein, I believe has come

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around to this point of view. I think he has. Charlie,

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you can't keep up with the copious flood of Richard's verbiage.

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Speaker 3: Richard wrote forty seven thousand words about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right, So, And the point is is that

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the view that well, wait a minute, maybe we should

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And really there's only one case about it from the

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eighteen nineties that everyone says settled the matter. But I

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think if you look closer, it's not a complete slam

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dunk the Wong Kim r. Case, I think was called

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been a while since I've read all these. So the

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last thing I'll say, and then Charlie can correct and

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fill in and add to it, is a lot of

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people are saying they might not reach the constitutional question

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of that clause in the fourteenth Amendment because there might

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be some statutory grounds where they might reject the challenge

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and thus leave the deeper challenge for another day, which

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I think would be unfortunate. But we are asking the

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Court to do an awful lot right now under President Trump.

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Speaker 5: I think there are a couple of things here that

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interests me. The first is I hear it said quite

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often that one of the big problems with the Trump

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administration is that it asks questions constitutionally that have been settled.

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I think that's wrong in the sense that there is

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a paradox within our constitutional order, and that is that

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we are, and the lower courts are, and the governments

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are obliged to follow the Constitution and to follow Supreme

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Court President. But if you think that that Supreme Court

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president is grievously wrong, the only way that you can

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get it hurt is to do something that violates it,

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as we of course learned in the most famous case

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of all Brown brought of education. And so if, for example,

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like the state of Florida, and I agree with him

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on this, even though I'm not fond of the policy,

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you think that basically every single Supreme Court pronouncement in

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the last seventy years on the death penalty is complete nonsense,

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then the only way that you can get it heard

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again is to pass a law that contradicts it. Well,

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Trump thinks or hopes that our birthright citizenship presidents are wrong,

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and the only way you can really get around to

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determining whether or not he's right at the Court hasn't

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been heard for a long time is to do something.

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And in his case, he passed an executive order, which

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is not a law, but which has the effect of

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bringing up the matter. So I'm not angry with Trump

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for having done this in the way that some are.

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That said, I do think that he's probably wrong. Certainly,

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I think he is wrong to think he can do

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it via executive order. So the maximalist case against Trump

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is that the Fourteenth Amendment mandates birthright citizenship and subject

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to the jurisdiction thereof just means diplomats and so forth,

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and therefore there's nothing anyone can do about it unless

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we amend the Constitution. We have birthright citizenship. Maybe it's

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a terrible policy. I actually think it is.

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Speaker 2: But that's the constitution. Deal with it.

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Speaker 5: And then it's this third way argument that I've become

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a little more sympathetic to having read the amicus briefs,

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which is that no, the fourteenth Amendment does not mandate

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birthright citizenship, but changes to the meaning of subject to

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the jurisdiction there are have to be made by Congress,

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and Congress can decide who is eligible for birthright citizenship

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and who is not. And that argument has been made

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with increasing frequency, and I think with increasing quality, and

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I think there's some truth to that. If that's the case,

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the Supreme Court will have to say that though, because

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Trump didn't get a law pass and won't get a

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law passed unless the Republicans were to say, boris the

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filibuster and they get every single person on site to

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change this, which isn't going to happen, and not with

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fifty three vote, So he's not going to get his

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own way. But I don't really resent him for trying,

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because Steve's right, the last time this was heard in

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ernest was one Kim Mark, which was in the late

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nineteenth century. So it's totally reasonable to put together a

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brief and say I think this is wrong. As long

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as you then respect the law when it's been adjudicated,

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I'd likely.

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Speaker 3: To be an executive order that banishes the income tax.

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Speaker 1: You go back, right, James. You and I grew up

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with that great cliche in the sixties. It began every

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New York Times editorial. Any country that can land a

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man on the.

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Speaker 4: Moon can solve x problem.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And my favorite version was any country that can

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land a man on the moon can abolish the income tax.

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Speaker 4: We never heard that one for some reason.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, No, because the thing that I was bothered me

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loving to put a man in the moon. Why I

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can't do this? Well, because putting a man in the

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moon is a very specific objective with a very specific

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set of technical requirements.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And it's uh, it's it's it's something you sit down

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to do with slide rules and the rest of it.

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And so yes, but I mean it's, well, I guess

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what we can't do right now? What's that? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm on the moon.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, man, my fingers are crossed about this

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next one. They really are, they really really, But we'll

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get to that in point. If I may change the

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subject for a second, gentlemen, I would like to discuss

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the fact that it's Friday and that means that I'm

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going to have pizza. And no, my friends, I am

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not going into an ad. The local grocery store is

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having a bogo for pizza. And there are two things

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about that. One, I hate the term bogo because it's wrong.

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Buy one, get one. Well that's that's the nature of

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every commercial transaction, which you mean is buy one, get

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one free, which would be bog off. But you never

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hear bog off. You just hear bogo. But I was

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standing there yesterday and I was beholding the range of

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frozen pizzas that we have. It's extraordinary how many there are,

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and how good so many there are. I grew up

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in fargan nor At Dakota, where Pinky's pizza was the standard,

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and it was one of those saltine crusted pizzas with

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little cups of Greece. You could, you could, you could,

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you could grease the tread of a Sherman tank with

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one of those pizzas. But it was good. But now

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I look with what we have and it's extraordinary, how blessed

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we are in the frozen pizza department. And I can

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look at all around life and find that meant you

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find manifestation of that Abundon's absolutely everywhere that I look,

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and it makes me happy. And that brings us to

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our guest. Our guest is an English American conservative journalist.

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He's a luminary at National Review, don't you know. He's

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a graduate of Lady Margaret Hall at Oxford and he's

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the author of the Conservatorian Manifesto. In addition to the

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National Review, of course, he's written for The New York

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Times and The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and other

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places as well. It's been described by the Atlantics perhaps

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the most confident defender of conservatism younger than George will

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We Welcome to the podcast, Charles C. W. Cook. Hello, Charles,

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thanks for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 5: And you know how this went to my because I

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was late for this, So the moment you have me

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as a guest, then I stopped behaving like a diva.

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Speaker 3: We're having Charlie on because first of all, why not,

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and he's lots of fun to talk to, and he's

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written a spanking article for a cracking article for National

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Review about well before we had Trump v. Misery, this

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is Cook v. Or we had Trump v.

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Speaker 1: Barber.

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Speaker 3: This is Cook v. Misery. Well enough with the long faces,

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is the subhead of his piece at National Review. America

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is not, in fact a hellscape. And to some people,

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the bristle when you say this, because no, this is this,

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this is there's no reason for cheer. Look around, everything

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is horrible. That's the scent of fascists boot in the

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face of Americans. But oddly enough, as you point out,

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eighty one percent of Americans are either very or somewhat

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satisfied with their lives, while just twenty percent are either

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very or somewhat satisfied with the way things are going

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for the US in general. Now, this disconnect is not unusual,

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but it seems to be really extreme. Now, so you

427
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make the case that, well, you make the case against misery.

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Tell us what prompted you to do this and what

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your insights were are will.

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Speaker 5: Be Well, I just think that it's a little bit

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absurd that we live in this extraordinary place, and really

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we shouldn't underestimate that it is an extraordinary place right

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now as it exists. This country, this people, this economy,

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this culture is extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: I know it could be better.

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Speaker 5: I know that there are people in government on left

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and right who make bad mistakes.

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Speaker 2: I know that if people listen to me and.

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Speaker 5: You James and you Steve, and they just adopted all

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of our ideas, it would be far better than it

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is now, of course, but I just find it somewhat

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absurd that everyone is so down and the tone of

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our politics is what you would expect from a country

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that was in terminal decline, that had nothing going for it.

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Speaker 2: If you listen to both parties, they are.

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Speaker 4: Sour.

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Speaker 2: The argument is an effect.

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Speaker 5: Well, yes, if we won all the time and the

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people who don't agree with us were vanquished, it would

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be a good place. But until then, and I just

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don't agree. And this is not the same thing as

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saying that the politics doesn't matter, or I don't have

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strong opinions, or that you know we shouldn't fight to

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make the world a better blues but I think you

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have to remember your baseline and just for once I

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wanted to write a piece that said, guys, I know

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every month I say here's what's wrong or here's how

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this could be fixed.

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Speaker 2: But could we just recall this?

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Speaker 5: And when I found that Gallup data that said eighty

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one percent of Americans, as you say, we're happy with

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their circumstances, but twenty percent were happy with the country,

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that made me realize that most likely what's happening here

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is that people think that other people are unhappy or

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that they might be all right, but the problems that

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we face are so great as to render that irrelevant.

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But that doesn't make too much sense because we live

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in America. So if America has produced eighty one percent

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of people who are happy with their situation, then surely

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it's going okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is a cover story. Let's add that

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for listeners, this is what the young people they, I guess,

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would call a banger of an article. That's the phrase

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I hear a lot from them, right, And I like

475
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,519
it because it attracks very closely with my disposition about things.

476
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,960
It reminded me of actually a comedy sketch from back

477
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,160
during the Great Recession around two thousand and two thousand

478
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,559
and nine by Louis c k who was later disgraced

479
00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:03,480
me too for some really borish behavior. But you had

480
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,240
a little sketchy did called everything's amazing and nobody's happy,

481
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,480
and it was very funny stuff about the people complain

482
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:13,759
about progress. Right, you know if our phones have a

483
00:24:13,839 --> 00:24:16,960
you know, a five second delay getting connected, and he says, well,

484
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,440
you just wait a minute. It's got to go to

485
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,200
a satellite first, and it doesn't cost you anything. Whereas

486
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:23,119
you know, James and I will remember, if you wanted

487
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,079
to call somebody three minutes a long distance, you had

488
00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:27,920
to wait till eleven oh one pm when rates went down.

489
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 4: Right, So we're spoiled.

490
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: And there's a certain decadence about all this that maybe

491
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,480
is a theme that we should explore a bit.

492
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:35,759
Speaker 4: There is a.

493
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,559
Speaker 1: Couple of parts of the article that I don't disagree with,

494
00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:42,839
but I think need to be probe a little harder. So

495
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:45,359
you point to the gallup data saying, my life's going great,

496
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,480
but the country's in terrible shape. I have for a

497
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,039
long time, and I present to students and ask them

498
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,640
sometimes the first day of class, to explain why what

499
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,759
their theories are for the following data, which is if

500
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:00,960
you go back to about nineteen fifty eight, when Gallup

501
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:04,440
and Harris and others started asking Americans do you have

502
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,920
high confidence or trust in the federal government to do

503
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,839
the right thing most of the time or all the time?

504
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,480
When it started that time series, and then I've been

505
00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:13,480
asking that question or close to it ever since.

506
00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:14,319
Speaker 4: Then Pugh took it up.

507
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: Okay, back in nineteen fifty eight, the number of people

508
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,720
who said yes to that question high trust, high confidence

509
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:25,599
was almost eighty percent eight zero. Today it rarely gets

510
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,279
above fifteen percent. And it's been all downhill ever since.

511
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:32,519
A slight retreat during the Reagan years, but nowhere close

512
00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:34,960
to what it was under Eisenhower in the first few

513
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:40,440
years of Kennedy. Well why did that happen? And I mean,

514
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,119
there's a bunch of explanations, but what I'm actually coming

515
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,839
around to, Charlie is you're a fragment of one sentence

516
00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:49,400
where you say, certainly life is more than mere politics.

517
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 4: Strongly agree politics.

518
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: Is consuming more and more of life, and our political

519
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,559
class is so evidently incompetent.

520
00:25:58,039 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 4: So you know, James Q.

521
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: Wilson once said thirty years ago, says, in nineteen fifty eight,

522
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,839
when people looked at at their government.

523
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:05,079
Speaker 4: What they see.

524
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: They'd see the federal government that had one World War

525
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,359
two very quickly, relatively speaking, built the interstate highway system

526
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,920
pretty fast, expanded schools in suburbia for making homes affordable people,

527
00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,119
the education system. The GI Bill sent hundreds of thousands

528
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,160
of returning GI said, you saw a record of competence

529
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,960
and achievement by our federal government. And what have we

530
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,599
had since then? It's just increasing in competence. And so

531
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,920
I think there are reasons why people sour on the

532
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,319
results were getting from our government. And then the other

533
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,519
problem is we politicize more and more of life. So

534
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:43,119
when you say, certainly life is more than mere politics,

535
00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:46,599
I'm remembering the sixties when the New Left started saying

536
00:26:46,599 --> 00:26:49,960
the personal is political. And these days more and more

537
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,319
things are politicized that weren't when James and I were

538
00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:52,839
growing up.

539
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 3: And that's yeah, that second point of your Steve's I

540
00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:59,359
was just about to make it that that's why I'm

541
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,920
stepping along. I'm gonna let I'm gonna let our guests

542
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,599
do it. But we are a simpatico wavelength on that one, buddy.

543
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:06,400
But the first thing that you were talking about I

544
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,720
just wanted to say this before Charlie takes over, is

545
00:27:08,759 --> 00:27:10,839
that all the things that you mentioned are now in

546
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,200
disfavor with the fringes and people. The fact that we

547
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,920
world won World War two, well, we were siding with

548
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,720
the wrong guy, that Churchill maniac. The fact that we

549
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,480
built the interstate system allowed to empty out the city

550
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:25,119
so that you know, the fact that people could go

551
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,960
to the suburbs meant that the core cities were destroyed,

552
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,319
and that endless suburbia sprawled gave rays to a rise

553
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,079
to a car culture. That's horrible and we should all

554
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,599
be taking the trolley. Everything that you mentioned. Either the

555
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,279
left hates because it is given us the you know,

556
00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:41,880
the suburban America that we have today, or the right

557
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,680
hates because why, I don't know whatever, their horse shoeing,

558
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,039
their way of being as idiotic as the left. So yeah,

559
00:27:47,079 --> 00:27:50,480
I mean we did accomplish those things, but then we're

560
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,960
all held up as being well, yeah, okay, so would

561
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,000
you be done for me lately? Or these are really

562
00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:57,359
bad and we should all be trotting along in horses

563
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,440
and cobblestones and buildings that are you know, the big

564
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,839
cities no longer not taller than six stories anyway, Charles,

565
00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:06,000
that's derailed things say something about.

566
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 5: Well, yes, I agree, I am a conservative. I think

567
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,119
that that is a huge problem. Steve and James, I

568
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,759
think that's a huge problem. But can I just counter

569
00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:26,359
it in that I think, obviously the government's too big,

570
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,839
and it's incompetent, it spends too much, and we have

571
00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:32,799
people like Gavin us some in power, and trun doesn't help,

572
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,519
And all of those criticisms are right, And that's why

573
00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:38,880
I engage in politics. If I thought that everything was

574
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,039
perfect and the best of all worlds, I wouldn't do this.

575
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,400
I would do something else. But at the same time,

576
00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:56,119
later in the piece, I cite some statistics about the

577
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,839
place the United States currently occupies in the world that

578
00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:04,960
maybe are at best despite the government, or could be

579
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,839
in some cases the result of policy.

580
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: I mean, for example, yeah, we don't have much trust

581
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,480
in government because government does all of the stub stuff.

582
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:18,240
But we're also in a way that we were not

583
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,240
in two thousand, for example, energy independent.

584
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,359
Speaker 5: We're a net exporter of energy that is the product

585
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,160
of a combination of public policy successes, and you can

586
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,160
thank conservatives for those and mostly the private sector. We

587
00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:43,279
have an economy that is now one and a half

588
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:50,079
times the size of the ears, where in two thousand

589
00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:53,400
and eight when Barack Obama was elected, they were the

590
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:54,279
same size.

591
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's a lot of private enterprise did that.

592
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 5: Ultimately, that's the only way of creating wealth and GDP.

593
00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:08,640
But it's also thanks to tax cuts and regulatory policies

594
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,799
and us having a different set of rules in place

595
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,680
than the rest of the world does, and it ought

596
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,319
to be said, a different set of rules in place

597
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,880
than we had in nineteen seventy when we had wage

598
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,960
and price controls and a ridiculous tax system. We have

599
00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:29,440
got much better federal tax policy and federal regulatory policy

600
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,519
in many ways now than we have ever had, or

601
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:34,160
at least that we've had since prior.

602
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: To the New Deal.

603
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 5: So I agree with pretty much all of your criticisms,

604
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,599
of course I do. You and I agree on politics mostly,

605
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:50,039
But the notion that everything's sliding backwards, you know, this

606
00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:52,440
is slightly outside of the room of the piece, and

607
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,000
I may write something else on this, but this phrase

608
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:56,920
I see all the time at the moment. This is

609
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,920
what they took from you. Yeah, some of that's true,

610
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,960
but you could have done that in any decade. In

611
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,839
the nineteen nineties, this is what they took from you,

612
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,880
would have been peaceful streets. The crime was unbelievable. People

613
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,599
who were born in the year two thousand and five

614
00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:19,839
cannot imagine what crime was like in the eighties and nineties.

615
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,559
In the nineteen eighties, the abortion rate was downright disgusting,

616
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,160
and people thought they were going to die in a

617
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,119
nuclear war. In the nineteen sixties we had race riots,

618
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,240
but the Vietnam War. So this is what they took

619
00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:37,240
from you. Instinct is a good one in some senses,

620
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:39,200
and it's one I share as a conservative. You do

621
00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:41,559
want to watch trends that are negative, and there are

622
00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:46,000
lots of them. But also it can't exist in a vacuum.

623
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,799
We can't just say this is what they took from

624
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,599
you and then imagine that whatever it is that you're

625
00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:55,480
looking at was surrounded by sunlit uplands and rabbits running

626
00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:58,039
around happily and frolicking in the evening, because that's just

627
00:31:58,279 --> 00:31:59,200
usually not true.

628
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: You know it's not. And when you when I see

629
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,039
those things, they are inevitably attached to some picture of

630
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,279
suburbs from the from the eighteen. You know, from the

631
00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,720
late nineteen eighties or early nineties. Everything is basked in

632
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:15,960
this nostalgic golden glow. It's an old pizza hut that

633
00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:20,279
had the red glasses and the checkered plastic table closet,

634
00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:22,200
and all that is true. Nobody took it from us.

635
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,559
In most of these cases, I would sell if it's gone,

636
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:26,720
it's because we didn't want it and it went away.

637
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,559
But they didn't take it from us. There are alternatives

638
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,720
and analogs to be found today. But you're right. The

639
00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:35,160
crime was horrible. When you walked outside of that pizza hut.

640
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,359
There was a chance you're going to get shanked when

641
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:39,079
you if you didn't and you were living in the

642
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:41,400
suburbs and you would go in your bananas bike somewhere

643
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,440
with the little streamers coming. You were worried about nuclear

644
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,400
war in the back of your head. You're absolutely correct.

645
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,119
And when they say this is what they took from you,

646
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,319
and they show you a grand Baroque cathedral which with

647
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,359
its incredible rocal cod you know, fizzy decorations going into

648
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,880
the heavens, you have to forget. There's probably a steaming

649
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,440
pile of heap right order right outside of the steps

650
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:05,960
because there wasn't any sanitation, and cholera then cholera right,

651
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:09,039
and plague from time to time. So yes, all things

652
00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:13,359
being equal, But I think one of the reasons that

653
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,519
people do feel in miserated today is twofold one. As

654
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:18,880
Steven said before, the personal is the political. We have

655
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,440
not been given any safe space in which we can

656
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,279
just simply exist. Everything has to be tied up into

657
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:27,599
this bolus of intersectionality and everybody has to work. Well

658
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,759
I don't, but people have to worry that they have

659
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:34,319
the correct opinions about absolutely everything. Somebody put it on

660
00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:36,079
Twitter the other day. I thought it was just great.

661
00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:39,000
Is that the problem today? Probably maybe it's been hours.

662
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,559
The problem with modern progressives is that they have an

663
00:33:41,599 --> 00:33:47,000
idea and they keep themselves from considering second and third

664
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,240
orders because it would require observations and solutions that would

665
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,880
put them out of favor with their in group. I

666
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,359
think that's absolutely it. So there's this constant performative nature

667
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,920
to make sure that your politics are correct. I was

668
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,000
having a conversation of coffee with Cora with a former

669
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:02,200
coworker the other day, and I really had to watch

670
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,079
what I said because unless I had said certain words,

671
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:09,039
condemnatory words about certain topics, I was going to be

672
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:11,440
cast into the like of fire. And the second thing

673
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,000
I think that it doesn't help is social media. When

674
00:34:14,039 --> 00:34:17,360
people have a fire hose of people who are ratcheting

675
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,519
up everything to make you angry, and it's blasting in

676
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,960
your head and you're scrolling in an infinite way, there's

677
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,639
no there's literally no bottom there, and I think that's

678
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:30,840
a big part of it. And people who bedrot and

679
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,480
just sit and look at that and see how everything's

680
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,079
awful when they could be out there, you know, I

681
00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:39,760
don't know, look look Maxing and Singapore or something. It's

682
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,360
not helpful. And I don't see a way necessarily around that.

683
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,639
So how Charles and your piece for the public here,

684
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,800
do you deal with the pernisious effects of hold on?

685
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,039
I got it, I got a notification on Twitter. I'll

686
00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:53,400
read that letter. How do you deal with the pernicious

687
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,519
effects of social media when it comes to combating misery?

688
00:34:57,599 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 2: Well?

689
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,559
Speaker 5: Do you write cover stories and national review that solves

690
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:03,519
the problem? I mean, it's all I can do, right.

691
00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,679
I agree, it's a huge issue. And one of the issues,

692
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:15,679
of course, is that it's impossible for anyone who did

693
00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:20,280
not live through those eras to know what's true and

694
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,719
what's not, and the only things that survive are the

695
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:23,320
good things.

696
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: It's like cars.

697
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,119
Speaker 5: Now, there's so many beautiful cars from the fifties and sixties,

698
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:30,480
but when you go to a car show, you end

699
00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:32,960
up thinking, wow, all the cars from.

700
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: The fifties and sixties were beautiful.

701
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,559
Speaker 5: But actually almost all of them were terrible, and there

702
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:38,800
was a handful of them that were stunning. And the

703
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,400
ones that were stunning are the ones that we look

704
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,480
at now at the car show.

705
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying.

706
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,519
Speaker 3: That I'll argue with that, but we can do that

707
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:47,079
in the garments.

708
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 5: But do go on, well, right, choose whatever it is

709
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,000
that you want. If you disagree on cars, Let's say,

710
00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:56,480
I mean pop music is a good example. I love

711
00:35:56,519 --> 00:35:58,480
a lot of music from the nineteen sixties, but ninety

712
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,199
percent of it was garbage and the stuff that here

713
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:07,000
and I was awesome. So you can apply that quite fairly.

714
00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:09,880
I think not to society, because I actually am off

715
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,360
the view that America has always been great. I hate

716
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,920
this view that well, yeah, I mean fine, but in

717
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,199
nineteen ten, women didn't have the vote like yeah, okay,

718
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,280
and I agree that's not good for women, But that

719
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,400
doesn't mean America was a hellscape. But I think that

720
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:29,800
if you go back and you actually talk to people

721
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,280
who were there, you get a much better conception of

722
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,480
what life was like and what was good about it.

723
00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:38,079
And they become nostalgia because they grow old as shure,

724
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:40,119
but they also remember things and you find out things

725
00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:42,199
about them, and you see pictures of them and you think, oh,

726
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,559
you're quite poor and had a really small house and

727
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,800
your carlxis was about to fall apart. But on social

728
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,960
media you could present, especially with Ai, this this paradise conception,

729
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,760
and it's so hard to fight against. Although I'm rambling

730
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,599
a bit, what I will say is this one of

731
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:04,360
the things that I personally find a little bit weird

732
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,159
about some of those look what they took from you

733
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,880
is on social media is that they actually.

734
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: Look a lot like my town. I mean, some of

735
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:13,719
them are like a kid riding a.

736
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 5: Bike, yeah right, Or there's a whole bunch of people

737
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,360
out in the park and there are American flags and

738
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,360
they're having a picnic.

739
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: Or you know, it's like a.

740
00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 5: Family around a Thanksgiving table having dinner. That's what they

741
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,760
took from you. Don't you do that every in November.

742
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,440
So there's probably something else going on here that actually

743
00:37:34,519 --> 00:37:37,480
is bad. But I don't know how you fight it

744
00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:40,760
other than to tell people that it's wrong. And also

745
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,000
maybe remember that most people aren't on social media, and

746
00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:47,119
those that are on social media usually aren't engaged in politics.

747
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 3: Well, I just want to go ahead, Stephen, then last

748
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:52,480
this with both of you.

749
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: Readers should know our listeners should know that you really,

750
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,960
at the end call for we need a disposition of

751
00:37:58,960 --> 00:37:59,679
the happy warrior.

752
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 4: More about it. I mean, one sentence jumps out of me.

753
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: You say there is more to being a statesman than

754
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,199
perpetually provoking a citizenry into disgruntlement. I like disgruntlement, and

755
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,440
I keep thinking we need pg. Woodhouse to tell us

756
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,760
how to gruntle ourselves, to see one of his great passages.

757
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,360
And I agree with all that the substance is important.

758
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,800
And I'll just add a little caveat to James. I

759
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,440
heally agree with everything he said about progressives. But you know,

760
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,679
Republicans have been complicit in the growing incompetence of government too.

761
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,480
Not as bad as Democrats, but still they share some part.

762
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 4: Of the blame.

763
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 1: I do wonder and I said this once before, and

764
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,679
now I'll give you one example of why I think it.

765
00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:39,800
The question of what decadence is and how you measure

766
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,480
it as a serious one, And you know, I'm kind

767
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,119
of a social scientist, so I resist these broad generalizations.

768
00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 4: On the other hand, up here.

769
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: In what used to be a backwater wine region of

770
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,480
California is now a fancy wine region of California. Where

771
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,519
it used to be all the wine was never more

772
00:38:56,559 --> 00:38:58,679
than five dollars a bottle for some pretty good stuff,

773
00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:00,559
and you walked in as a little family the operation.

774
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,000
Now it's wineries that cost you forty dollars for a tasting.

775
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:07,519
And starting about twenty years ago, I would see people

776
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:09,880
showing up with my hairline, which you know, I have

777
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,920
no hairline, except the guys would have their beards, their

778
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,239
hipster beards and a ponytail, and they would drive in

779
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,519
in their Lexus that had a Bernie sandersticker on it. Yep,

780
00:39:20,559 --> 00:39:24,280
And I thought, something's gone really screwy here. That doesn't

781
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,920
make sense. And that's just sort of a you know,

782
00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:31,599
sort of a microcosm of a broader decadence that I

783
00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:34,880
think afflicts the Europe worse than us. And by the way,

784
00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:37,400
your point is that, boy, if we feel bad, the

785
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,800
Europeans really ought to be down on the dumps.

786
00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:42,039
Speaker 4: Right, Yes, So anyway, I mean, I appreciate all that.

787
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:44,679
Speaker 1: But I guess what I want to see from you, Charles,

788
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,039
maybe is a whole book, because there's this is a

789
00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:50,119
profound problem you put your finger on, and a worthy

790
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,079
remedy that we need to flush out.

791
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 3: Here's the chapter for it, and I'll give it to

792
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,400
both of you, you say in the piece twas ever, Thus, yeah,

793
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,760
American statement. There fire up the random date selector and

794
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,920
consider a decade. You are tempted to romanticize, all right, Charles,

795
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,079
what would that decade be for you?

796
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,119
Speaker 5: Well, of course it will be the nineteen nineties, because

797
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,159
I was a kid slash early teenager, and I do

798
00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:19,159
think objectively speaking, there was an awful lot to be

799
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,039
said for the nineteen nineties. So I'm not pretending that

800
00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:26,480
we just always favor the time in which we were young.

801
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:28,960
I have not, although I don't know too many people

802
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,360
of that age. I've not met too many people who say,

803
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,159
you know, the nineteen thirties, that was where it was

804
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:37,719
at I think the nineties were objectively good, but also

805
00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:40,360
there were lots of bad things about the nineties that

806
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,719
I've forgotten, and that didn't matter to me because I

807
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,679
was nine, so that would be mine. Although there's a

808
00:40:48,679 --> 00:40:50,320
lot of crime, like I say, I mean when I

809
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,960
was a kid, even in England, but you'd hear about

810
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,199
this in America all the time, and unlike now where

811
00:40:56,199 --> 00:40:58,320
the British and the Europeans are obsessed with all these

812
00:40:58,360 --> 00:40:59,559
evils of America.

813
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: Most of which on it's true. It was true in

814
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,039
the nineteen nineties.

815
00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: Steven one decade for you, I'll be the eighties, right,

816
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,000
I mean, so yeah, I started coming of age around

817
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:14,199
nineteen sixty eight. I was only eleven, ten or eleven,

818
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,559
but I was paying attention to things, and my parents

819
00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:18,559
were involved in the world in serious ways, and I

820
00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:21,960
thought the world was coming to an end, right, the assassinations.

821
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 4: The riots, the war that wouldn't end. I mean it really.

822
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,119
Speaker 1: Then the seventies were just awful with inflation and you know,

823
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,559
things going wrong, and then Reagan comes along and look

824
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:32,760
really turns things around the country.

825
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:34,559
Speaker 4: That decade went really well.

826
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,159
Speaker 1: I do agree the nineties were a very fortunate decade

827
00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:39,800
for the reasons, Charles says, but I take either one

828
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,840
of those, and I would not want to go back

829
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:42,840
to nineteen sixty eight.

830
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm tempted to romanticize the fifties because I love

831
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:48,480
the style, the vibe, and the rest of it. But

832
00:41:48,519 --> 00:41:50,920
two things. One, I know that it's probably a lot

833
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,239
more annoying and banlan than I did to think it was.

834
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,960
And two, I really fear that I would be one

835
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,039
of those Mort Saul types who was just sneering at

836
00:41:57,079 --> 00:41:59,719
the ikes in the you know, the suits and the

837
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,320
rest of it a little what I know. But then

838
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,719
I go to the twenties. I really like the twenties.

839
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,280
The twenties are fascinating to me because it's one hundred

840
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,679
years ago, one hundred years ago, but it's so recognizable

841
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,719
to us today. They had papers, they had radio, they

842
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,400
had magazines, they had newspapers, they had automobiles, they had skyscrapers.

843
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,000
The whole modern vocabulary of our lives is there, and

844
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:25,840
I'm tempted to romanticize it a little bit, except the

845
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,480
whole thing about trying to get some liquor and it's

846
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:33,480
really tough, And also the sort of the I mean

847
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,639
but if you read the newspapers, you will find that

848
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:38,519
there's a lot. There's a lot of blue stockings, there

849
00:42:38,519 --> 00:42:40,960
are a lot of cotton mather types. There was a

850
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,079
lot of wiggery and prairie and the rest of it

851
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,760
that I wouldn't have liked. But frankly, I mean, just

852
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,639
looking from the newspapers, it's a smart, interesting, crackling era

853
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,760
that I would love to look at, but I know

854
00:42:54,119 --> 00:42:55,559
better than to romanticize it.

855
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: Well, but remember James so Will Rogers great observation, and

856
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,960
at least prohibition is better than no liquor at all.

857
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: Yes, do you know?

858
00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 5: A few years ago I went to Atlanta with my

859
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:09,599
dad as part of a Civil War trip that we took,

860
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:16,599
and we went to this beautiful, big mansion house somewhere outside.

861
00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: Atlanta, I don't know where, and.

862
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 5: The tour guide said to us that when prohibition was

863
00:43:23,679 --> 00:43:28,800
passed while the Volsted Act was being debated, the owners

864
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:36,239
of this house bought two decades worth of alcohol, wine, beer,

865
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:41,199
spirits and so forth, and so for them, prohibition never happened. Now,

866
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,400
this is, of course, the cardinal sin of nostalgia, and

867
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,440
the one I'm arguing against, because everyone thinks if they'd

868
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,519
lived in the Roman era, that had been Julius Caesar

869
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,639
rather than a guy who got tetanus at the age

870
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:55,880
of nineteen. But if you could have lived James in

871
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,920
the twenties like that, then I think it would have

872
00:43:58,920 --> 00:43:59,800
been pretty swell.

873
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 3: But at the same time, there's an element to American

874
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,760
life that perhaps runs through all of these decades that

875
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,400
we talk about and seems particularly poignant. Given the art

876
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,079
of your piece, it is a reconstruction or reevaluation, or

877
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:12,760
you're re updating of the famous Nighthawks by Hopper, which

878
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,880
has always been a haunting painting for several reasons. One

879
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,440
the fact that there's no door. Usually those places the door,

880
00:44:20,639 --> 00:44:22,599
there's the door in the corner, but there isn't. There's

881
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:25,039
just that piece of curved glass which is inviting some

882
00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:27,599
yegg or who loligan to put a rock through it.

883
00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:30,320
And then two, there's the cross the street. There's this

884
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,280
sort of empty, uninhabited will blankness that may or may

885
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,679
not have people slumbering in small, little dark apartments, and

886
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,039
those people who are sitting there are not having a

887
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:44,199
wonderful convivial conversation. There is in a partners there is

888
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,400
a loneliness there's a three am in the morning of

889
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,519
the American soul there, and that runs through from then

890
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,239
to now except now, of course, as we say, it's

891
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,519
people who are being alone together as they sit in

892
00:44:55,559 --> 00:45:00,400
bed and scroll one last thing before where we going.

893
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,400
It's another piece that Charles did, and it had to

894
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,360
do with the beach idiots. In defense of beach idiots.

895
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:06,880
I haven't read the piece. I assume you mean the

896
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,719
people who when they put a microphone at him and

897
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,679
ask what country are we currently at war at they

898
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:16,079
say Iowa. And not the people who are rampaging on

899
00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:18,400
beaches and causing riots and shootings and the rest of it,

900
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,840
but just the sort of genial, bubble headed person who

901
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,480
goes down there to have a tan and drink and

902
00:45:22,519 --> 00:45:27,360
hook up. And you're defending them. You're defending these people, Charles,

903
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,159
to defend yourself here.

904
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:31,599
Speaker 2: How long have you got?

905
00:45:32,559 --> 00:45:35,199
Speaker 5: This is in a sense of a piece with the piece.

906
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:42,519
But I had a few observations about this that I

907
00:45:42,559 --> 00:45:45,360
made some people deeply unhappy. And I got an email

908
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,960
from a guy who said that I was out of

909
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,559
touch because when he was a young man, he spent

910
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,880
his late teens protesting Richard Nixon, and then he said

911
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,159
I shall be watching you going forward, and I thought, well, qed, buddy,

912
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,159
because you were exactly who I was writing about.

913
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,159
Speaker 3: He spent his teens protesting Richard Nixon. I have that

914
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,519
an image in my life or in my head of

915
00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:11,800
the Simpsons with the comic book, guys walking down the

916
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,880
street and a missile is headed directly towards him and

917
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:14,920
he says, oh, I've.

918
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 2: Wasted my life.

919
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,119
Speaker 5: Well, look, The reason that I defended these guy's is fourfold.

920
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,480
The first reason is that I have really, am genuinely

921
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,559
not persuaded that the sort of person who is eighteen

922
00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:35,840
nineteen twenty years old and doesn't know anything about foreign

923
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,199
policy or economics is materially different than the sort of

924
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,280
person who is eighteen nineteen twenty years old and doesn't

925
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,280
know anything about foreign policy or economics but talks about

926
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,159
them all the time. I see nothing in our young,

927
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,199
indignant activist class that tells me that they are well read.

928
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:58,079
They're prolific, they're annoyed, they're annoying.

929
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: But I don't think they're particularly well read.

930
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 5: Second, I looked at the video that Fox put out.

931
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,199
I do think it's funny that the lack of intellectualism

932
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:10,119
was being.

933
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,119
Speaker 2: Argued by Jesse Waters.

934
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 5: But I looked at this video that Fox put out

935
00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:20,199
and everyone and it seemed happy. And I think that's

936
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,519
really important, especially when you're nineteen. There's lots of time.

937
00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:27,199
And don't take this to mean that adulthood is unhappy.

938
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: It's not.

939
00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 5: But there's lots of time to do the things that

940
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,199
make you take an interest in politics, things like have children,

941
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,480
get a mortgage, have a job, move, you know, these

942
00:47:40,519 --> 00:47:44,960
are things that make you wonder about that elections thing.

943
00:47:45,559 --> 00:47:48,599
But these kids are nineteen. They seemed really happy, and

944
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:56,360
that's good. The third thing is that politics, and this

945
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,679
is I think similar to a theme that both of

946
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,360
you touched on earlier in our conversation. Politics is not

947
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,639
an end done to itself. When you politicize everything, you

948
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:10,559
forget what.

949
00:48:10,519 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: Politics is for.

950
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:17,199
Speaker 5: Politics exists and is important for this reason, so that

951
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,199
we can create the right conditions within which civil society

952
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:22,239
can flourish.

953
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: You get the politics right.

954
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 5: That means that people can have families and churches and

955
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:34,599
businesses and sports leagues and associations and restaurants. And that's

956
00:48:34,639 --> 00:48:37,079
the point in it. And if you look at that

957
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,239
beach That's one of the reasons we have civil society

958
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,360
is to create the circumstances in which nineteen year old

959
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,599
girls can say, the main thing I worry about every

960
00:48:48,599 --> 00:48:52,039
morning is which bikini to wear. And the last point

961
00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:56,400
that I've made is that if you look at a

962
00:48:56,519 --> 00:49:00,639
nineteen year old who says the main question in my

963
00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:03,000
life is which bikini to wear, and you see that

964
00:49:03,039 --> 00:49:05,880
as a failure, then you've actually forgotten what most of

965
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,559
human history was like, including relatively recent human history. I mean,

966
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:15,119
my grandfathers were mining their own business in nineteen thirty

967
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:18,199
nine in England. My grandfather on my mom's side worked

968
00:49:18,199 --> 00:49:21,679
at an orchard in Devon, and my grandfather on my

969
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,239
dad's side was an apprentice carpenter, and then the world

970
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,199
blew up and they went and signed up. They weren't conscripted,

971
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,119
but I don't think that either of them had thought

972
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,559
on the apple orchard or in the apprentice carpenter program.

973
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,480
You know what I wish I were doing right now?

974
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:40,760
I wish I were fighting in North Africa, or I

975
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,639
think I were, in the case of my dad's dad,

976
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,639
in North Atlantic convoys that were being sunk every day.

977
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,239
They thought about other things. I mean, they presumably didn't

978
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,360
wear bikinis, but they were thinking about other things that

979
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,440
were probably quite fatuous, and that was good, you know.

980
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,920
I would imagine that much of the time they spent

981
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:07,960
killing people and having all their friends killed, I imagine

982
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,840
a lot of that time was spent thinking about how

983
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,400
it would be nice to go back to having days

984
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,840
where you didn't have to think about too many important things.

985
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,760
And I just don't want us to lose sight of that,

986
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,360
because we do. Sometimes we get so obsessed with politics

987
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,519
and injected into things that it doesn't belong that we

988
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:26,119
forget why it is that we have it in the

989
00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:26,679
first place.

990
00:50:27,119 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 3: I get your point, and I think that we all

991
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,880
should be grateful. And look at that nineteen year old

992
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,840
girl and you look male gaze thing, but consider her

993
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,480
and the problems that she has about which bikini she's

994
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,719
going to choose, and just say, I hope she gets

995
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,719
one V two dropped on the motel, just one, just

996
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:50,400
just to put things in perspective. Charles has been fun, Steven,

997
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,320
it's been fun. Everybody, it's been fun. I invite you

998
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,079
to give us a five star review at Apple to iTunes.

999
00:50:55,199 --> 00:50:58,119
Why wouldn't you? I suggest you go to ricochet dot

1000
00:50:58,159 --> 00:50:59,760
com and sign up because you can read the whole

1001
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,519
front page for free and listen to the podcast. We

1002
00:51:01,519 --> 00:51:04,239
don't charge a thing but or phenomenal for you get

1003
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,840
access to the member site. And you always say, oh yeah, Platinum,

1004
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,000
gold class whatever, I get this and that I get

1005
00:51:10,039 --> 00:51:13,039
a tote. No, you get access to a community that

1006
00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:15,320
has grown up over the years and grown up and

1007
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,840
I mean grown ups because there's a code of conduct

1008
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,960
that keeps things civil. And if you're not a member,

1009
00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:25,039
can't You can't post, you can't add a comment. But

1010
00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:27,400
if you are a member, you can chat away. You

1011
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,079
can post about anything you like because we talk about

1012
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:31,719
sports and arts and politics and everything in history in

1013
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,760
the member feed. It's the site I keep telling people,

1014
00:51:34,159 --> 00:51:35,760
it's the site you've been looking for in the Internet

1015
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,840
since they plugged this thing in. Gentlemen, thank you for

1016
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,599
being with us today. We'll see everybody in the comments

1017
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:44,679
at Ricochet four point whatever it happens to be at

1018
00:51:44,679 --> 00:51:45,599
the moment. Bye bye,