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<v Speaker 1>Nearly one hundred years ago, there was a landmark trial

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<v Speaker 1>between religious fundamentalism and the current educational system, and Jonathan's

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<v Speaker 1>going to tell us.

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<v Speaker 2>A little bit more about it.

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<v Speaker 1>You want to take it away, Jonathan sure.

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<v Speaker 3>This article explains in some detail the events of the

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<v Speaker 3>Scopes trial in Tennessee ninety nine years ago. This trial

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<v Speaker 3>started a still raging debate about how creationism and intelligent

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<v Speaker 3>design versus science is to be taught in schools. Those

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<v Speaker 3>Scopes lost the case. Eventually science won, but maybe not.

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<v Speaker 3>New movements in the US and abroad have been working

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<v Speaker 3>to invade school boards, and some states are battling in

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<v Speaker 3>the courts to defend draconian laws that limit what can

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<v Speaker 3>be taught in schools and state universities. Once again, religious

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<v Speaker 3>zealots and fanatics are invading the schools. Let's explore what

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<v Speaker 3>Scopes has to say about this and how the case

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<v Speaker 3>was started as a gift to one of the religious

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<v Speaker 3>a pastor religious representative in their state assembly, as a

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<v Speaker 3>gift to his ineffectiveness. The story is from the Los

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<v Speaker 3>Angeles Times by Michael helps Zick, and I apologize for that.

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<v Speaker 3>On July twenty sixth, twenty twenty four. So I would

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<v Speaker 3>like to pass this to the Phoebe Phoebe. I'm via

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<v Speaker 3>Phoebe the Phoebe.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, can I get a bill passed? Please?

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<v Speaker 3>Sure?

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<v Speaker 2>Can I get some legislation? Please?

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<v Speaker 3>Just email Congress and I'm sure they'll get right on it.

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<v Speaker 2>One of them. That's a nice gift, that is, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't find that under the Christmas tree or is a

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<v Speaker 2>birthday present. Very often you here have some legislation, have

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<v Speaker 2>some legislation, legislation, it's nice for you, But legislation is

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<v Speaker 2>not a gift. Legislation is not something to be fart

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<v Speaker 2>asked around with. And if you're that bad at getting

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<v Speaker 2>legislation passed, maybe stop being a legislator. Think that's the

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<v Speaker 2>that's the nament a problem here. It's like you're a

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<v Speaker 2>governor of a state. You're bad at governing. Stop being

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<v Speaker 2>a governor. That kind of ludicrousness here. And bad legislation

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<v Speaker 2>means bad laws means injustice and ridicule of the legal system.

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<v Speaker 2>You get bad laws on the books and you get

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<v Speaker 2>ridicule from the public, and you have no faith in

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<v Speaker 2>the institution. Supreme Court doing that nicely for itself. It's

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<v Speaker 2>creating bad laws out of whole cloth. Whole cloth bad

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<v Speaker 2>laws that are ridiculing the institution from top to bottom,

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<v Speaker 2>and symbols matter a lot. Symbols matter a lot. There

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<v Speaker 2>is nothing symbolic or empty when it comes to legislating.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell people who were fighting the gay rights movement in

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<v Speaker 2>the fifties, sixties and seventies about symbols. Tell people in

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<v Speaker 2>Britain who were repealing the last of the anti gay

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<v Speaker 2>laws on the books in two thousand and twenty one

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<v Speaker 2>with the Shipping Repeal Act, because it was still sitting

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<v Speaker 2>on the books. And as we have seen in states

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<v Speaker 2>like Arizona with abortion laws that are purely symbolic from

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<v Speaker 2>the eighteen hundreds, they're not symbolic when someone decides that

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<v Speaker 2>that's the law today that they're going to enforce. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is the dangerous thing. The law is only there

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<v Speaker 2>as something of meaning when somebody chooses to enforce it.

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<v Speaker 2>And the judge in this case chose to enforce the law.

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<v Speaker 2>Chose to enforce the law wrong, may I add, But

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<v Speaker 2>he chose to enforce the law. Judge exceeded is sentencing

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<v Speaker 2>powers here and over sentenced and on a technicality it

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<v Speaker 2>was struck down. I privately think the judge did that

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<v Speaker 2>deliberately to prevent a genuine appeal going forward, because if

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<v Speaker 2>you have a genuine appeal going forward, then it can

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<v Speaker 2>be taken up by court on substantive grounds, whereas if

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<v Speaker 2>a judge is just an idiot, it can't go any further.

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<v Speaker 2>But this is an issue as old as time. Don't

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<v Speaker 2>need any qualifications other than you're liked by the electorate

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<v Speaker 2>to become an elected official, and that is an electorate problem.

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<v Speaker 2>The oldest democracy has been in existence because it has

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<v Speaker 2>allowed people who have no rhyme or reason. From the

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, nineteen hundreds twentieth century, I reached

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<v Speaker 2>and legislative within.

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<v Speaker 1>The last couple of years. I read a book actually

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<v Speaker 1>on the history of the fight to keep creationism and

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<v Speaker 1>later intelligent design out of the schools. And this really

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<v Speaker 1>is a battle that has never ever ever stopped. Right

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<v Speaker 1>after the Scopes trial, both Alabama and Missouri had long

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<v Speaker 1>legal battles fought over it. It is an actual pretty

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<v Speaker 1>interesting history where the courts have since the Scopes trial

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<v Speaker 1>have continuously cited against creationism and IDs in recent decades,

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<v Speaker 1>and as I recall, and I could be wrong about this,

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<v Speaker 1>But I think Missouri fought a long legal battle and

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<v Speaker 1>eventually lost in the courts, and Alabama eventually just quietly

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<v Speaker 1>dropped the law from the state book about trying to

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<v Speaker 1>test it in the courts. So I mean, this is

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<v Speaker 1>something that has happened in more places throughout the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>And as I said, it's a big, long, ongoing battle.

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<v Speaker 1>We all know about the intelligent design case that happened

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<v Speaker 1>in Massachusetts and in nineteen nineties. I think so. But John,

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<v Speaker 1>I know you found a telling quote in this article.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us about that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it actually comes from Ray Gingrew's book about the

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<v Speaker 3>case Six Days or Forever, And it's said the legislature

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<v Speaker 3>passed the measure idly as a meaningless gift to its drafter,

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<v Speaker 3>John W. Butler, a lay preacher who hadn't passed any

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<v Speaker 3>other bill. The bill did not amount to a row

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<v Speaker 3>of pins. Let him have it, a legislator is alleged

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<v Speaker 3>to have said. And so this was passed as poor

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<v Speaker 3>guy isn't a very good legislator. Let's at least give

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<v Speaker 3>him one little throw the dog a bone, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>But even if you throw a bone to a hungary

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<v Speaker 3>has unseen consequences. So in this case, in this case

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<v Speaker 3>elevating ridiculous law into a cultural war, no one expected

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<v Speaker 3>the governor to sign this, but he did so it

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<v Speaker 3>was made law. So it's like teaching, and the law reads,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'll quote that, to teach any theory that denies

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<v Speaker 3>the story of divine creation of man as taught in

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<v Speaker 3>the Bible, and to teach instead that man had descended

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<v Speaker 3>from a lower order of animal. In a word, evolution

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<v Speaker 3>was made a misdemeanor with a fine. So if you

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<v Speaker 3>if you do that, you're going to get arrested and fine.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. That's that's where the law he broke was.

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<v Speaker 2>That's where the judge fell down because he exceeded his

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<v Speaker 2>fine power to close the fine that he had. And

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<v Speaker 2>the problem here is the media got hold of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Modern media got hold of it, and modern media blew

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<v Speaker 2>it all out of proportions. Modern media made it far

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<v Speaker 2>more ridiculous than it actually was.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, part of there was William Jennings Bryant, though,

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't it. I mean he was making a big deal

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<v Speaker 1>out of it and bringing the media in and creating that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, modern film just rubbish, which had no bearing

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<v Speaker 2>on actual reality in court, sensationalizing things that. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>take the mini series People versus O. J. Simpson. Yet

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<v Speaker 2>some of it was accurate, but large trunks of it

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<v Speaker 2>were inaccurate. And for media consumption, I mean the films

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<v Speaker 2>made about the trial. Some parts of it are accurate,

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<v Speaker 2>large parts of it are imagined and complete nonsense. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's what the media does. And that's the problem when

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<v Speaker 2>you have media consumption portrayed as truth, and in this case,

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<v Speaker 2>the media consumption is being portrayed as the truth of

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<v Speaker 2>the trial. The town was fanatics, this man was a lunatic,

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<v Speaker 2>this man was a pariah. Blah blah blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolute CODs, absolutely from start to finish. And I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just frustrating that there was a reliance on tertiary

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<v Speaker 2>sources for history moving forwards in the society that we

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<v Speaker 2>live in, especially when it comes to movies made specifically

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<v Speaker 2>to make money and not to be educationally accurate.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, in the nineteen sixties film version, it says in

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<v Speaker 3>the article it starred Frederick Marsh, Spencer Tracy, and gene Kelly. Spencer,

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<v Speaker 3>Tracy and gene Kelly were very famous actors at the time,

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<v Speaker 3>so it was like, yeah, and they're going to portray him.

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<v Speaker 3>The characters meant to play Brian Clarence, Darryl and H. L. Menkin,

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<v Speaker 3>who was the Baltimore newspaper men who brilliantly the average

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<v Speaker 3>for it, you know. So it's like and he was

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<v Speaker 3>an aggressive journalist, which is fine, but when you kind

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<v Speaker 3>of overshoot things a little bit, it's kind of a mess.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there was a general from both sides there

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<v Speaker 1>was generally putting too much into the trial that was

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<v Speaker 1>really there. I mean really, it was just a small

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<v Speaker 1>local thing that really didn't It didn't affect the whole

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<v Speaker 1>state at the time. It didn't affect the whole country

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<v Speaker 1>at the time that when the laws when the trial

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<v Speaker 1>was over, but the big media sensation that happened over

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<v Speaker 1>it did and it really brought this fight over creationism

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<v Speaker 1>into the public eye. So I Scopes was actually recruited

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<v Speaker 1>by a group of men that hung out at the

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<v Speaker 1>local pharmacy, including the pharmacist and a local lawyer, and

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<v Speaker 1>they thought the law was wrong. It was and they

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to take it to court, so they recruited Scopes

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<v Speaker 1>that come and help them do it. Now, John I

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<v Speaker 1>know you did. You studied the town about a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit and the people that were there. Can you tell

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<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about the place where the trial

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<v Speaker 1>took place at. Was it really religious there?

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<v Speaker 3>No, it was just a typical smallish town that had

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<v Speaker 3>you know, uh, this was just a violation of a

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<v Speaker 3>misdemeanor law, you know, kind of like you know, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>it wasn't really very exciting except for to the locals.

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<v Speaker 3>The locals really didn't care, you know, they were they

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<v Speaker 3>were basically bored with it. So they then found that

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<v Speaker 3>it was going to be really good, really good for them,

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<v Speaker 3>uh financially because the circus that was being created by

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<v Speaker 3>the press brought people to town and brought press to

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<v Speaker 3>town and increased their their revenues for that year. So

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<v Speaker 3>that was about their only real interest in it. And

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<v Speaker 3>the pro science. You know, it was a bad test

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<v Speaker 3>case because it was dying of apathy in the town,

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<v Speaker 3>but you know, it was like true religious Uh. They've

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<v Speaker 3>continually fought this since then, but they were kept fighting

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<v Speaker 3>it before then too. Uh. The there were other incidences

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<v Speaker 3>that didn't make it to court about not in this

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<v Speaker 3>particular town. But you know, they say there's a good

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<v Speaker 3>one hundred and fifty years of the science versus creation

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<v Speaker 3>war since basically since Darwin. You know, so it's it is.

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<v Speaker 3>But the townsfolks themselves were you know, typical Americans. Hey,

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<v Speaker 3>we can make money at this, you know, so let's

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<v Speaker 3>do that. So but Scopes himself was one of the

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<v Speaker 3>adherents of the science side of things, and he said

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<v Speaker 3>that Dayton trial marked the beginning of the decline of fundamentalism. Oh,

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<v Speaker 3>I wish that were true. He said that in a

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen sixty five interview, I feel that restrictive legislation on

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<v Speaker 3>academic freedom is forever a thing of the past. That

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<v Speaker 3>was not a very good prophet prophecy. It's not very

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<v Speaker 3>prophetic at all. So that was, you know, that was

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<v Speaker 3>one of the things that I wanted to mention. Other

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<v Speaker 3>paragraphing articles said that for the evangelical right. Gould noted,

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<v Speaker 3>creationism is a mere stocking horse in a political program

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<v Speaker 3>that would ban abortion, erase political and social gains of women,

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<v Speaker 3>and reinstitute all the jingoism and distrust of learning. That

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<v Speaker 3>prepares a nation for demagoguery. So that's kind of, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>what's happening. And now that had predictive power if you're

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<v Speaker 3>looking at today. The whole thing was just a test

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<v Speaker 3>of bad ideas and to see if they could build

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<v Speaker 3>on it and convince the public to acquiesce to authoritarian rule.

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<v Speaker 3>Again had predictive power.

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<v Speaker 1>So I mentioned I mentioned Missouri and Alabama as some

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<v Speaker 1>of the battleground states, but Phoebe, you had mentioned Kansas too.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you fill us in on that.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen ninety nine, the Kansas school Board decided that

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<v Speaker 2>they were going to remove the teaching of evolution from

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<v Speaker 2>the state curriculum. The places with anything, they're just going

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<v Speaker 2>to just remove it, goodbye, get rid of that. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't achieve that science in the classroom now. We don't

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<v Speaker 2>bother that. It was the dying days of the twentieth century,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was trying to make it out like it

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<v Speaker 2>was the first days of the twentieth century, in this

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<v Speaker 2>fit of anti millennium millennium bug fearing tomorrow's world isn't

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<v Speaker 2>going to come for me kind of nonsense, where they

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<v Speaker 2>basically said, you know, we want our children to be ignorant,

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<v Speaker 2>we want our children to retain ignorance, and we don't

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<v Speaker 2>particularly like you know, this modern rubbish that's here, there,

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<v Speaker 2>and everywhere. So we're just going to get rid of it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and this was picked up on by a number of

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<v Speaker 2>science journals at the time. Was absolutely madness because it's

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<v Speaker 2>scientifically illiterate, and it creates scientific i literacy amongst people

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<v Speaker 2>in school because it has you eliminate. A fundamental bridge

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<v Speaker 2>to understanding a number of things. Is if you can

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<v Speaker 2>just go it's magic, and then it's there, what are

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<v Speaker 2>you going to do? It's magic? It's magic. There you

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<v Speaker 2>go next. And I mean they say that in life

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<v Speaker 2>there is no magic, but the only thing that is

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<v Speaker 2>magic is legislation and contracts, because you can just create

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<v Speaker 2>something and then that's it. It's all changed. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>only magic there is. And we see it here when

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<v Speaker 2>they try to legislate actual woo woo magic La dadadi

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<v Speaker 2>da out of their own heads where they can just go, well, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to done from A to Z and we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to miss out the twenty four letters in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle because you know, it's just too complicated and I

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<v Speaker 2>can't be doing whether my critical thinking skills and my

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<v Speaker 2>cognitive distidance is too much it's and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>just explode and fall over. I mean, we live in

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<v Speaker 2>a world of pluralism, we don't live in a world

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<v Speaker 2>of monoism or you know, restricted ideas and the attempt

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<v Speaker 2>by a narrow fundamental sect that is Christianity in this

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<v Speaker 2>context to try and force on every other person, not

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<v Speaker 2>just their own sect, so Buddhists, Atheists, Jews, Hindus, Agnostics, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>To adhere that intelligent design came along and created things

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<v Speaker 2>is prima facial, unconstitutional, guff and crow barring religion through

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<v Speaker 2>the Overton window like you're trying to race the America's

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<v Speaker 2>cup through it. It is a nonsense.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we're seeing a big push too. And you

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<v Speaker 1>were talking about, you know, at the turn of the century,

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<v Speaker 1>that anti intellectualism, anti science wave that was sweeping across

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<v Speaker 1>the country, and I still think we're still dealing with

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<v Speaker 1>that today. We're dealing with twenty years of people denying science.

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<v Speaker 1>We're dealing with people still denying it today, getting even

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<v Speaker 1>worse at it at some points. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>we're ever going to get out of this battle?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, when that generation dies, well now it dies, but

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<v Speaker 4>Scots generation Scott's generation dad, and we're still in their

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<v Speaker 4>battle it's not a generational questions.

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<v Speaker 2>It is a generational question because we're seeing more and

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<v Speaker 2>more people are no longer only getting their education from school.

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<v Speaker 2>Peer education, the Internet, access to wider resources than just

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<v Speaker 2>what is given to you by your parents and by

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<v Speaker 2>your school is the fundamental thing of Generation Z, generation Alpha,

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<v Speaker 2>and soon to be Generation Beta when it does actually

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<v Speaker 2>turn up in full force, because information will destroy and

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<v Speaker 2>education will eliminate. But yes, conspiracy theories and all that

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<v Speaker 2>exist on social media and all that, but people like us,

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<v Speaker 2>and there are a lot of people like us, and

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<v Speaker 2>as we're seen in Britain when it came to the

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<v Speaker 2>media nonsense surrounding rioting in the streets and far right

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<v Speaker 2>lunatics taking over. When you actually get onto the ground

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<v Speaker 2>and see the reality in my former home city of

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<v Speaker 2>brightn and Hove, where four thousand anti fascist protest has

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<v Speaker 2>turned up to fifty fascist protesters in the streets, you

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<v Speaker 2>realize that reality is not what's on social media. People

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<v Speaker 2>do educate themselves and the education system that was the

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<v Speaker 2>only thing that people used to get any information from

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<v Speaker 2>is no longer that exclusive source.

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<v Speaker 1>I just look at you know, you say, people go

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<v Speaker 1>to the internet and look and I see the other

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<v Speaker 1>things out there too, like can Ham and cantoven right,

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<v Speaker 1>And there are people still while looking at this, looking

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<v Speaker 1>at AIG. So that's why I say, I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>that it's a generational thing, because this information is still

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<v Speaker 1>being perpetuated. I talk to younger people online all the

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<v Speaker 1>time that are pushing these this creationism, to pushing intelligent desime,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't know that we're getting.

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<v Speaker 2>Away doing it online. When did you actually go and

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<v Speaker 2>speak to people in reality, the offline, who have actually

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<v Speaker 2>gone to a real world that is not the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>I live, I am surrounded by these people where I live.

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<v Speaker 1>I talk to the I talk to these people every day.

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<v Speaker 1>They come into These anti science people come into my

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<v Speaker 1>store all the time. This I'm not just I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>just seeing I'm not just seeing these people on the internet.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm seeing a lot of young people on the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>That's kind of what scares me. But I have people

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<v Speaker 1>walking into my store every day with these type of attitudes.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that is a that is actually

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<v Speaker 2>a shrinking percentage of the population. It's just a more

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<v Speaker 2>voluble and noticeable because people see the internet as they

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<v Speaker 2>think that everybody deserves to hear their opinion on something.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't necessarily mean that their opinion is more representative.

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<v Speaker 2>It just means that they're more licensed to give a

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<v Speaker 2>total stranger their opinion because that's what social media has done.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't necessarily mean that people have a greater level

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<v Speaker 2>of actually believing this is just that more people who

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<v Speaker 2>are energized by this. As my mother says, the people

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<v Speaker 2>who shout loudest should be ignored first.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the subtext too of this is that there is

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<v Speaker 3>a large, organized right wing effort to turn the US

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<v Speaker 3>into a theocratic dictatorship creationism, anti LGBT, flat earth, anti trans,

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<v Speaker 3>anti woke rhetoric as a way of normalizing anti democratic

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<v Speaker 3>and anti republican values. And I say that because we're

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<v Speaker 3>not a democracy, we are a republic, but values on

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<v Speaker 3>which this country was founded. And of course all the

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<v Speaker 3>politicians side with the perceived winning team right, And that's

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<v Speaker 3>why the extremist right has had all the normal conservative

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<v Speaker 3>signed on to gain power as they had, and because

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<v Speaker 3>they do have an ever shrinking adherence to their particular beliefs.

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<v Speaker 3>So they are in the throws, the death throws of

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<v Speaker 3>their philosophy and their approach to life. I agree with

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<v Speaker 3>you their Phoebe, and I think that is spurring a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the issues that we're having today are made

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<v Speaker 3>issues because there's a group of very privileged people who

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<v Speaker 3>are starting to fear losing their privilege.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, this is great conversation and I really like to

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<v Speaker 1>hear what some of our viewers think about it, So

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<v Speaker 1>leave a comment or drop us an email at nonprofits

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<v Speaker 1>at atheist typeancommunity dot org.