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<v Speaker 1>Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy

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<v Speaker 1>in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh there you are. I was hoping i'd cross paths

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<v Speaker 2>with you today. I'd like to invite you to visit

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<v Speaker 2>the story Well. It's a place where storytellers of all

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<v Speaker 2>stripes gather, from improp performers to authors, screenwriters to playwrights.

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<v Speaker 2>We all tell stories, but we're not here to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about craft. We're here to make something out of nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>Each episode of the podcast, your host that's me sits

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<v Speaker 2>down with a creative person and based on a series

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<v Speaker 2>of random prompts, we get elements that we make into

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<v Speaker 2>a story. Will it be a noir novel about King

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<v Speaker 2>Kong or a Broadway musical about JFK? Even We don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the fun part. But what do you get out

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<v Speaker 2>of this besides a good time with fun people? Simple?

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<v Speaker 2>The idea is then yours. That's right. Whatever we come

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<v Speaker 2>up with, we give it away for anyone to use,

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<v Speaker 2>however they'd like no strings attached. It's like each episode

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<v Speaker 2>come with a free prize. Inside Well with Kyle Olson,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll say, if you a seat at the table.

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<v Speaker 1>Ever wondered what happens when a Zoomer who grew up

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<v Speaker 1>on the Clone.

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<v Speaker 3>Wars, millennial Anakin Defender.

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<v Speaker 4>And a grumpy old gen Xer walking to a canteen

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<v Speaker 4>and at talk Star Wars.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we've got the podcast for you.

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<v Speaker 4>Star Wars Generations is a place for fans of all

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<v Speaker 4>backgrounds to come together talk about what we love the

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<v Speaker 4>franchise and what we can learn from each other. With

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<v Speaker 4>so much new Star Wars content coming out, we take

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<v Speaker 4>a deep dive into all of it. We talk stories

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<v Speaker 4>and characters, what we learn about the Force and the Empire,

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<v Speaker 4>Republics old and new, and how each story adds to

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<v Speaker 4>the larger picture.

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<v Speaker 2>Besides episode by episode coverage of the new shows, we've

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<v Speaker 2>been going.

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<v Speaker 4>Back to watch the movies and release order.

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<v Speaker 1>We talk about Star.

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<v Speaker 2>Wars novels and video games, along with fam content and cosplay.

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<v Speaker 4>And with each episode we're just starting the conversation and

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<v Speaker 4>we hope you jump in.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll read your feedback.

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<v Speaker 3>Answer your questions. We've had full episodes dedicated to questions

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<v Speaker 3>and raised by.

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<v Speaker 4>Listeners like you. You can find us ender Star Wars

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<v Speaker 4>Generations on your favorite podcast app or by going to

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<v Speaker 4>the Ethicalpana dot com May the Force be with.

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<v Speaker 1>You now, this is podcasting.

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<v Speaker 4>Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Hey,

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<v Speaker 4>we're giving you one of our member only episodes where

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<v Speaker 4>we're continuing this idea of the core questions. What are

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<v Speaker 4>the things that are kind of like fundamental to any

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<v Speaker 4>discussion of superhero ethics. And one of the topics that

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<v Speaker 4>I think comes up again and again and again and

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<v Speaker 4>so we wanted to dive into pretty early on is

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<v Speaker 4>that of accountability of superhero Accountability of who are superheroes

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<v Speaker 4>accountable to, if anyone? Should they be accountable to anyone?

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<v Speaker 4>What should happen when something goes wrong? Should there be registrations?

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<v Speaker 4>Should there be oversight bodies? Should there be none of this?

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<v Speaker 4>All of this, all those questions that sometimes get kind

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<v Speaker 4>of summarized as team Tony or team cap but as

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<v Speaker 4>we're going to talk about, are a lot more complicated

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<v Speaker 4>than that. And we'll be using MCU's Civil War, both

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<v Speaker 4>the comic books and the movie and talking about some

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<v Speaker 4>of the differences for those as a jumping off point.

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<v Speaker 4>But we're not here to relegislate what exactly happened in

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<v Speaker 4>that movie or that comic book show or what should

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<v Speaker 4>have happened. We're here to talk about this larger question

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<v Speaker 4>of if there are people in the world who have

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<v Speaker 4>powers far beyond what most of us have, and those

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<v Speaker 4>people choose those powers to do their version of good,

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<v Speaker 4>what should the rest of us do about it? And

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<v Speaker 4>when something goes wrong, what should happen. I've got some

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<v Speaker 4>kind of things I'm going to say to frame this discussion,

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<v Speaker 4>but Riki, let's just starting out by that. Want to

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<v Speaker 4>introduce yourself and give kind of your general thoughts on

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<v Speaker 4>this topic and why you think it's important one to discuss.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, hello Matthew and listeners and chat. I guess we

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<v Speaker 3>are live here. I'm Riki, And for me, the most

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<v Speaker 3>important thing about this is that for the longest time,

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<v Speaker 3>superheroes were framed as good. I mean, they are right,

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<v Speaker 3>they're heroes, but the idea that they were not accountable

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<v Speaker 3>was there was never any discussion baked into these stories

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<v Speaker 3>about that. For the longest time, it was just assume

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<v Speaker 3>that they're good because they are. And then we got

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<v Speaker 3>this shift. I want to say, maybe starting in the eighties,

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<v Speaker 3>late eighties and nineties.

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<v Speaker 1>Where we've got more stories that were focused on well,

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<v Speaker 1>what if superheroes were bad, right, Like The Watchmen is

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<v Speaker 1>one of those big moments in comic books where the

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<v Speaker 1>whole industry really shifted around it, and I think it

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<v Speaker 1>set the tone for a lot of the stories that

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<v Speaker 1>came later, asking these questions like you know, literally, who

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<v Speaker 1>watches the Watchmen?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and then it developed and we get to the

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<v Speaker 3>point of civil war in the comic books, and then

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<v Speaker 3>of course in the MCU really put that on the

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<v Speaker 3>map for mainstream media, especially the MCU version.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'll say that it's a long and I'll say

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<v Speaker 4>a long time ago on this podcast, we did a

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<v Speaker 4>series of episodes with Jessica Regiez before you became a

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<v Speaker 4>co host, I believe, yeah, act she was long before

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<v Speaker 4>on the history of comic books. And one thing we

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<v Speaker 4>talked about was that this moment in the late seventies

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<v Speaker 4>early eighties where we started thinking about these questions a

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<v Speaker 4>lot more. It's not coincidental that that's happening at a

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<v Speaker 4>time when a lot of people are starting to ask

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<v Speaker 4>are the police always doing good? Is the military always

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<v Speaker 4>doing good? And frankly mean people have been asking those

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<v Speaker 4>questions for a long time, but between the comics code

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<v Speaker 4>that we've talked about Mcarthyism and all sorts of stuff

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<v Speaker 4>like that. Those either weren't topics being discussed in mainstream

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<v Speaker 4>America very much. It was thought of was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>that's just the hippies, the liberals, they're crazy ideas, or

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<v Speaker 4>it was ideas that you couldn't talk about in comic

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<v Speaker 4>books and things like that, and so part of this

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<v Speaker 4>and then I think we'll talk about there's always been

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<v Speaker 4>this conversation about our superheroes kind of stand ins for

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<v Speaker 4>the police, or for the military, or for something else,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's not coincidence. At the same time we start

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<v Speaker 4>talking a lot more about, you know, war crimes in

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<v Speaker 4>Vietnam and police brutality, that we start also asking about superheroes,

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<v Speaker 4>like what if they are not always doing good or

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<v Speaker 4>trying to do good, but bad things are happening.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, he said the seventies, and immediately my mind

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<v Speaker 3>went to President Richard Nixon. Of course, the Watergate scandal

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<v Speaker 3>and his ultimate resignation from the presidency really shook the

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<v Speaker 3>country and the world to the core of this idea,

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<v Speaker 3>like the president committed crimes and had to resign because

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<v Speaker 3>of them. You know, he was in the process probably

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<v Speaker 3>of being impeached and being removed as president by Congress,

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<v Speaker 3>and that really set the tone for people's, like the

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<v Speaker 3>public's perception of people in power. Yeah, I think it

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<v Speaker 3>was always you would always be critical of presidents, probably

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<v Speaker 3>like if you're an average citizen and be like, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't like this policy or that policy, but you

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<v Speaker 3>accept their authority, like they're the president, like they should

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<v Speaker 3>be allowed to do all these things, et cetera. And

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<v Speaker 3>that was the moment in history when people were like,

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<v Speaker 3>wait a minute, wait a minute, like you can't do that,

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<v Speaker 3>Like even if you're a president, you can't do that.

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<v Speaker 3>And of course, like we are currently dealing with times

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<v Speaker 3>where presidential powers once once again being stretched and tested

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<v Speaker 3>by the law. And we also coincidentally have a MCU

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<v Speaker 3>story coming out as of this recording. It's releasing tomorrow

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<v Speaker 3>in theaters, Captain America Brave New World, where the President

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<v Speaker 3>of the United States is like a villain figure in

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<v Speaker 3>the story, definitely questioning his motives.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, before we jump into this too much, I do

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<v Speaker 4>want to frame the discussion a little bit, which is

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<v Speaker 4>saying that the questions of a lot of the questions

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<v Speaker 4>we're going to discuss are questions that by nature are

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<v Speaker 4>probably not going to be dived into in great degree

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<v Speaker 4>in the media that we talk about themselves, and that's

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<v Speaker 4>somewhat intentional, and it's part of what we like about

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<v Speaker 4>this podcast is kind of getting to dive into those

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<v Speaker 4>and with superheroes especially, I think there's two ways in

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<v Speaker 4>which that comes forward, and one of these was really

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<v Speaker 4>well spelled out by my brother in law, Joseph J. Dixon,

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<v Speaker 4>in a post teammate on Facebook response to a question

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<v Speaker 4>I asked where he was talking about how one of

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<v Speaker 4>the things that's weird about superhero media is that we

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<v Speaker 4>fundamentally think of people as having superpowers in terms of

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<v Speaker 4>their ability to do violence, in terms of their ability

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<v Speaker 4>to be in confrontation, and he had suggested that actually,

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<v Speaker 4>like you know, in a world of superheroes, you might

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<v Speaker 4>think of, like you know, a person with weather control

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<v Speaker 4>could actually be incredibly helpful working with farmers and agriculture,

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<v Speaker 4>but that doesn't really make for a Hollywood blockbuster. In

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<v Speaker 4>the same way and in the same way, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>as we've often talked about like Captain America and Tony

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<v Speaker 4>Starks in a room and talking back and forth about well,

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<v Speaker 4>should there be some accountability, but his registration too much,

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<v Speaker 4>and what could different accountability look like? And how do

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<v Speaker 4>we find the middle ground? And can we trust the

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<v Speaker 4>government go do it? Or should someone else that doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>make a big movie the way Captain America and Bucky

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<v Speaker 4>and Tony Stark are punching each other does And so

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<v Speaker 4>we're kind of diving more into those questions a little

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<v Speaker 4>bit and just kind of framing it that way. Just

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<v Speaker 4>want to kind of start by saying, like, there's an

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<v Speaker 4>extent to which we could peel open the whole superhero

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<v Speaker 4>genre and say, like, well, but what if we went

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<v Speaker 4>in these totally different ways. We're acknowledging that, Yeah, the

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<v Speaker 4>movies aren't gonna do that, the TV shows aren't going

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<v Speaker 4>to do that, But we still think it's important to

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<v Speaker 4>ask these questions because, as you said, these are reflecting

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<v Speaker 4>the real questions we're dealing with in our own world

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<v Speaker 4>as well, and that's the whole point of this podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I will say that in the comic version of

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<v Speaker 3>Civil War, both the characters of Daredevil and she Hulk,

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<v Speaker 3>because they're day jobs as Matt Murder and Jennifer Walter's

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<v Speaker 3>their attorneys, so they actually like had I would say,

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<v Speaker 3>pretty big roles in like that desk job sort of

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<v Speaker 3>way of not fighting or fighting in the court of

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<v Speaker 3>law and challenging superhero registration Act in various ways.

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<v Speaker 4>So my favorite one of my favorite Jessica Jones cartoon,

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<v Speaker 4>one of my favorite Jessica Jones stories from the comic

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<v Speaker 4>is about her dealing with a teenage girl who's pretending

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<v Speaker 4>to be a superhero, because that's kind of like the

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<v Speaker 4>girls who have superpowers as teenagers are kind of the outcasts,

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<v Speaker 4>but therefore also kind of cool in like the high

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<v Speaker 4>school way, and it's a great story, like getting into

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<v Speaker 4>all those details, and you're right, I do think one

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<v Speaker 4>of the ironies of all this is that in general,

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<v Speaker 4>the wider you make the audience, the less likely you

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<v Speaker 4>are to deal with depth and nuance, and the more

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<v Speaker 4>likely you are to have really awesome explosions, because that's

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<v Speaker 4>just the kind of like mass marketing versus like a

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<v Speaker 4>comic book or a novel or something like that can

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<v Speaker 4>often explore a lot more of these things, and a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of the TV shows and seeing I think understandably,

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<v Speaker 4>like you know, get into a lot more of those

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<v Speaker 4>nuances for those kind of reasons. So let's talk about this.

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<v Speaker 4>Let's talk about the questions we're dealing with. And Civil

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<v Speaker 4>War starts with an an incident, and I know it

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<v Speaker 4>from the movie, and the book is probably a little

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<v Speaker 4>comic books a little bit different. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 4>legislate exactly what Wanda did or didn't do, but I

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<v Speaker 4>think that a situation like what happens at the start

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<v Speaker 4>of Civil War is a good place to start this

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<v Speaker 4>question of accountability. So let me start asking Eureki. Superheroes

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<v Speaker 4>are out in the world. They think they have identified

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<v Speaker 4>what they think is something bad. They are taking action

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<v Speaker 4>to stop something bad. As a result of the actions

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<v Speaker 4>they take, innocent bystanders die. Now, there's lots of questions

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<v Speaker 4>about this off, like could they have done something so

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<v Speaker 4>that those innocent bistadors wouldn't die? Would more innocent bistadors

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<v Speaker 4>have died if they'd didn something else? Obviously, there's all

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<v Speaker 4>these questions surrounding it. What should happen in your mind

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<v Speaker 4>in a perfect world, what would happen next?

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<v Speaker 3>There should be an investigation and fact finding, and it

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<v Speaker 3>should be determined by the investigating body whether the heroes

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<v Speaker 3>acted in a proper way. Yeah, and how like how

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<v Speaker 3>responsible they are for the deaths. So you mentioned the

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<v Speaker 3>comic version. The comic version is like much more stark,

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<v Speaker 3>no pun intended. It is I can't even remember the

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<v Speaker 3>name of the group, but it's like some throwaway not

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<v Speaker 3>young not the young Avengers, but like young Avenger type

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<v Speaker 3>like kids who have powers, like and they are filming

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<v Speaker 3>a reality TV show, So like that's the level of

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<v Speaker 3>superhero they are. They don't care as much about the

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<v Speaker 3>saving people. They're like doing it for the clout, right,

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<v Speaker 3>and they like in trying to apprehend a super criminal,

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<v Speaker 3>they cause like this criminal has like atomic powers and

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<v Speaker 3>they cause them to explode and basically like it goes

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<v Speaker 3>off as a nuke and like a city is destroyed, right,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is the inciting incident of comic Civil War.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's much more like of an irresponsible interesting especially

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<v Speaker 3>because it's like filmed right like this this camera crew

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<v Speaker 3>is filming them, so everyone has the footage and like

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<v Speaker 3>these kids are like cracking jokes and stuff and like

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<v Speaker 3>we got ICs. It's easy.

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<v Speaker 4>So the idea that like superhero superheroes existing in the

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<v Speaker 4>way that they do without any change is totally fine.

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<v Speaker 4>Like that's just not a part of the cop Like,

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<v Speaker 4>I think you could look at what happens in uh

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<v Speaker 4>Nigeria and what happens to the connon students, and there's

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<v Speaker 4>an argument certainly of like look, yeah, maybe wand it

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<v Speaker 4>should be better trained or whatever, but like just let

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<v Speaker 4>cap and then handle it. That's not an argument that

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<v Speaker 4>can be being made. It sounds like in the comic

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<v Speaker 4>book version, like it's very clear something is not right

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<v Speaker 4>with the way superheroes are getting to act. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the movie kind of tries to parallel that

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<v Speaker 3>by making Wanda the one responsible because she's the newest

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<v Speaker 3>member of the team. She's young, you know, she wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>a part of the Battle of New York, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 3>So they're trying to frame it as like, well, she's inexperienced,

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<v Speaker 3>but they never truly touch upon it in the same

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<v Speaker 3>way that I think the comics were like, who the

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<v Speaker 3>heck let these kids play superhero? Right, that's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>like the framing. Yeah, and that's how it's approach of

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<v Speaker 3>like this superhero thing has gotten out of control, because

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<v Speaker 3>in the comics, of course there's there's hundreds, whereas in

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<v Speaker 3>the movies it really is like this core a dozen

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<v Speaker 3>or so at this time.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, it's a much smaller group.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so it's less it's less so in the movie

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<v Speaker 3>about like the idea of superheroes kind of getting out

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<v Speaker 3>of control. I think, right, and it's more like these people.

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<v Speaker 4>And it's interesting because I think I've talked to before

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<v Speaker 4>and don't want to get stuck just too much on

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<v Speaker 4>civil war it self. But one of my frustrations with

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<v Speaker 4>that is that winds up pitting the idea of the

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<v Speaker 4>Sokovia Accords against any kind of accountability, and where CAP

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<v Speaker 4>winds up kind of standing behind a position of like, no,

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<v Speaker 4>let us handle it. No one else should be thinking

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<v Speaker 4>about it except us. And it sounds like, at least

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<v Speaker 4>in the comics, there is some acknowledgment of some degree

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<v Speaker 4>of accountability is probably good, but the Circoba Accords are

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<v Speaker 4>not the right way to do it. And it becomes

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<v Speaker 4>the conversation about registration and all of that is that

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<v Speaker 4>you think that's an acurate description about what happens in

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<v Speaker 4>the comics.

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<v Speaker 3>So I would say that there's two main differences in

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<v Speaker 3>a comics version versus MCU. One. In the comics it

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<v Speaker 3>is USA based, right, Like, solely it is like the

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<v Speaker 3>US government saying we have to control superheroes, whereas the MCU,

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<v Speaker 3>the Cecovia Accords is a United Nations resolution. Right, it's

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<v Speaker 3>the international agreement, and I think that's a very important distinction.

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<v Speaker 4>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>And then the second party, as you mentioned, it's about registration,

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<v Speaker 3>like the key thing. It's called the Superhero Registration Act,

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<v Speaker 3>and it decrees that if you are going to vigilante

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<v Speaker 3>or like legal ante, if you are going to act

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<v Speaker 3>as a superhero to fight crime, then you have to

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<v Speaker 3>register with the US government, which includes most importantly revealing

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<v Speaker 3>your secret identity.

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<v Speaker 4>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>And Spider Man Peter Parker becomes the key person in

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<v Speaker 3>this struggle because you know, he's Spider Man like, he

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<v Speaker 3>has kept his secret identity hidden for the you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the longest time amongst this community, and importantly for his

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<v Speaker 3>character because Norman Osborne, the Green Goblin, discovered his identity,

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<v Speaker 3>he targeted Gwen Stacy and ultimately murdered her. And so

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<v Speaker 3>he because of that incident, he holds a secret identity

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<v Speaker 3>very closely because he does doesn't want you now at

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<v Speaker 3>may or MJ to become hurt or targeted as a

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<v Speaker 3>result of his activities as spider Man, and that's like

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<v Speaker 3>always been a part of his story. So he ends

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<v Speaker 3>up revealing his identity in a press conference where he says,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Spider Man, takes off his mask and my name

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<v Speaker 3>is Peter Parker and he joins Team Talk.

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<v Speaker 4>That was just a small part of our bonus member

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<v Speaker 4>episode that all members of the Ethical Panda Podcasts get

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<v Speaker 4>once a month for both this podcast and our Star

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<v Speaker 4>Wars Generations podcast. You can always become a member for

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<v Speaker 4>only five dollars a month fifty five dollars a year.

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<v Speaker 4>You get to support our podcast. You'll get ad free content,

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<v Speaker 4>you'll get bonus content at the end of most of

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<v Speaker 4>our episodes, and of course you get once a month

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<v Speaker 4>episodes like that, and most importantly, you get to help

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<v Speaker 4>support the podcast. And it is folks like that who

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<v Speaker 4>are just the lifeblood of this podcast who helped make

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<v Speaker 4>it possible for us to keep the lights on, for

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<v Speaker 4>us to keep giving you the content we do week

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<v Speaker 4>after week. So please think about becoming a member. All

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<v Speaker 4>the informations on the show notes, thank you so much,

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<v Speaker 4>and may the Force few with you.

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<v Speaker 3>She sa