WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:15.720 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:19.399 November twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, and I'm the host 3 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:23.039 of the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria. So Happy Thanksgiving 4 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.559 to all of my American listeners. I am actually out 5 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:30.120 of the country this week and will be I think 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:34.679 actually on an airplane on Thanksgiving proper. It's a good 7 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:36.719 time to fly. You wouldn't think it is, but when 8 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.799 you fly on the actual day. I say that now 9 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:42.439 as I pre record this, but usually it's a little 10 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:46.520 less expensive, at least to and fro the US. The 11 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.920 rest of the world obviously doesn't have any indication of that. 12 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:57.679 I am yammering on, but I'm really excited about this 13 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:01.000 week's episode. Before I get into it, it's a big one, 14 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:02.920 it's an important one. But before I get into it, 15 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.000 I do want to thank you again. Talk Nerdy is 16 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:09.799 and will always be one hundred percent free to download. 17 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.920 We're coming up on the holidays now. I have been 18 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:17.760 not working at the hospital during the entire credentialing process 19 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:21.000 since March. I'm finally starting back up again in December, 20 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.760 but this whole time I've just been podcasting. That's been 21 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:29.200 my only source of income. Combine that with the incredible 22 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:37.599 editing team and my just fearless and amazing producer slash 23 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:43.280 executive assistant slash friend slash I don't know emotional support. No, well, 24 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:46.599 you guys are making it so that I can pay 25 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.439 those bills and so I can pay those salaries. And 26 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:53.319 it's just so important because the content that we discuss 27 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:55.519 here on the show, I think you'll see in the 28 00:01:55.560 --> 00:02:01.680 next few weeks, it's just becoming increasingly relevant, increasingly necessary. 29 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:03.439 So let me let me thank a handful of you, 30 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:06.239 and then we'll get into why. This week's top patrons 31 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.199 include Chuck Blell, David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang, Mary 32 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:16.120 Neiva Anubadavaj, David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabriel f Haarmio, Ulrica Hagman, 33 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.919 Pasqually Gilatti, and Joe Wilkinson. If you are interested in 34 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:24.039 pledging your support on an episodic basis, all you've got 35 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.840 to do is visit patreon dot com, that's p A 36 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:29.840 t R e O N dot com, slash talk Nerdy 37 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:35.120 to learn more. Okay, this is a big one. This week, 38 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:39.520 I had the opportunity to speak with doctor Michael E. Mann. 39 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:43.280 You probably know Michael mannon we'll talk about this as 40 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:52.599 the researcher responsible for the infamous, famous, important, necessary hockey 41 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:58.520 stick graph when it comes to, uh, the change in 42 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.520 our climate's temperature, right when it comes to global warming. 43 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:05.400 He's a Presidential Distinguished Professor in the Department of Earth 44 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:09.199 and Environmental Science at the University of Pennsylvania. He's also 45 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:13.039 the director of the Penn Center for Science, Sustainability and 46 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.759 the Media. And he has a new book that he 47 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.319 co wrote with Peter J. Hotez, who's the dean of 48 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.639 the National School of Tropical Medicine and a professor of 49 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:27.919 pediatrics and molecular virology and microbiology at Baylor College of Medicine. 50 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.520 He's also the co director of the Texas Children's Center 51 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:35.199 for Vaccine Development. So we've got probably the most famous 52 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:41.680 climate scientists combined with just an incredibly important researcher in 53 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:46.159 the world of virology, micro biology and vaccine science. And 54 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.680 they co wrote a book Science under Siege, How to 55 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.960 Fight the five most powerful forces that threaten our world. So, 56 00:03:54.080 --> 00:04:01.479 without any further ado, here he is doctor Michael E. Mann, Well, Michael, Mike, 57 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:04.439 whatever you prefer to be called. I am so glad 58 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:06.120 that you are here today, and I just want to 59 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:07.879 thank you for joining us here on the show. 60 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.120 Yeah, thanks Kara. I'm Mike to my friends, and so 61 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:13.599 that should suffice for our conversation here. 62 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.800 I love it. I always ask people before we start rolling. 63 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:19.720 I'm like, I use the full name and title in 64 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:21.879 the show notes and when I interro you, but like, 65 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:23.959 are you okay with me calling you by your first name? 66 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.079 And I've yet to have somebody say, God, no, you 67 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:28.639 must call me doctor Man. 68 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:31.600 Yeah. Well we've hung out before, so yes, it's great 69 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:32.279 to be back with you. 70 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.959 Yeah. So we've chatted before when you were a guest 71 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:38.759 on The Skeptics Guide to the Universe, but I've not 72 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.680 had you yet on Talk Nerdy. I will say part 73 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.800 of that is because although this show has been going 74 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:48.319 on for gosh eleven years now, early on, I was 75 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:52.759 getting a lot of bookings directly from you know, publishers 76 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.040 and publicists in the sciences, and just because of the 77 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.439 nature of my show being a hard science show early 78 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.319 on and not doing as much social justice work, it 79 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.879 was just like white men left and right, like cis 80 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:08.240 Head white men, and so I made a conscious effort 81 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.800 quite a while ago to you know, intentionally bring more 82 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:17.439 marginalized people on the show. And it's rare now that 83 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.920 I have a sis heat white man on the show. 84 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.959 I figured it was just because I was nerdy enough. 85 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.839 Yeah, not at all. Couldn't be that. But I have 86 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.639 to say, when your new book came across my desk, 87 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.240 I was like, I have to get Mike on the show. 88 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.519 This is such an important topic. So I'm just I'm 89 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:39.560 so glad that you're here. 90 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:41.920 Well, I'm glad to be here, so thank you so much. 91 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.560 Absolutely so. You co wrote your new book, Science under 92 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:49.160 Siege with Peter Hotez. Is that how you pronounce it? 93 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:52.439 Yes, it is yep, and so he is. 94 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.279 The dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine and 95 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.360 also pediatrics and Molecular Virology and micro bio professor at Baler. 96 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:05.759 You are now a Presidential Distinguished Professor in the Department 97 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.839 of Earth and Environmental Science at you PEN and also 98 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:12.639 the director of the Pen Center for Science, Sustainability and 99 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:17.360 the Media. Most people know you as a climate scientist, right. 100 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:21.279 Right, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, so you're wondering how 101 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.480 did you know? It almost sounds like the makings of 102 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.079 a joke. Climate scientist and a vaccine scientist walk into a. 103 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:33.399 Bar, right, right. But obviously those are two areas that 104 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:37.040 are you know, under siege. Those are two areas that 105 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.399 have become deeply deequoliticized. 106 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:42.360 Yeah, exactly. And that's sort of how this came about. 107 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:47.600 About five years ago, I was witnessing my colleagues in 108 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.319 the public health arena be subject to the same sorts 109 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.000 of attacks that I had been subject to decades ago 110 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.319 when we published the now well known hockey Stick curve, 111 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.279 and it sort of made me a target for fossil 112 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:05.639 fuel front groups and polluters, you know, advocates for polluters, 113 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:10.560 politicians who find the you know, the science of climate 114 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:15.079 change inconvenient to an agenda of continued fossil fuel fossil 115 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.639 fuel dependents, and so they went after me in an 116 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.839 effort to discredit this, you know, this, this iconic graph 117 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:24.680 that demonstrates just how profound the warming of the past 118 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:27.160 century is, how how without precedent it is. It really 119 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:29.680 drives home the reality of the problem. So, you know, 120 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:33.879 I've been subject to attax by right wing politicians and 121 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:40.199 news outlets, you know, the Rupert Murdoch media empire, demands, 122 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:42.439 I'd be fired for my job by climate that you 123 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:45.680 name it, and and it was sort of PTSD for me, 124 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:49.120 you might say, when about five years ago, I saw 125 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.040 my friends in the public health arena, like Peter, like 126 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:55.360 Tony Fauci, being subject to exactly the same sorts of 127 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.199 character attacks, the same tactics, often by some of the 128 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:02.600 same players. And I reached out to Peter, you know, 129 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.759 because I felt that we had some lessons, that I 130 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:06.959 had some wisdom I could share with him based on 131 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.279 my own experiences. We became friends. We realized, Hey, we've 132 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.759 got a book to write because whether it's climate science 133 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:18.600 or COVID nineteen vaccines, we're dealing with this massive assault 134 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:24.240 by an anti science driven, you know, movement that threatens 135 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.399 us all absolutely. 136 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:28.360 And I'm so, I mean, I think this is such 137 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.519 a great way to start this conversation because probably the 138 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.600 number one question that I've been champing at the bit 139 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.000 to ask you has to do with that very thing. 140 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.679 You have been dealing with this kind of pressure for 141 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:47.080 a lot of your career. But I'm curious, from your perspective, 142 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:48.919 does it feel different now? 143 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:51.639 It does in a sense, you know, if we can 144 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.200 use a medical analogy, I would say, you know, back 145 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.320 in the nineteen nineties, you know, there was this sort 146 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.480 of localized cancer in the you know, uh, in the 147 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:07.519 body politic. This this assault, this bad faith assault on 148 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.840 climate science by fossil fuel interests in those promoting their agenda. 149 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:16.679 And what we've seen is this metastasized now to impact 150 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.440 all of not just all of science, but our entire 151 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:24.759 public discourse. This bad faith assault by plutocrats. You know, 152 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:27.480 we we spell them out in the book, plutocrats and 153 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.360 petro states and polluters and you know, who have come 154 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:37.279 together to you know, try to not just mislead the 155 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.000 public and policymakers about sort of some of the critical 156 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.759 threats that we face in the science that underlies that, 157 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:48.440 but essentially to undermine our entire public discourse. So yeah, 158 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.799 it feels much bigger. It feels like what was once 159 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:57.879 this localized cancer has now metastasized to impact our entire 160 00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:58.799 body politic. 161 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.240 And it's such a difficult position to be in. I mean, 162 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:11.200 I'm sitting over here as a science communicator turned clinical psychologists, 163 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.960 so I'm working within the systems, but I'm also you know, 164 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.840 continuing to do some of the public communication of science. 165 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.320 I don't have a position where I am attempting to 166 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.360 affect policy, for example, But I just can't imagine that 167 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:30.840 those who are working as public servants in the scientists, 168 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.799 I mean, they must feel so like it must be 169 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:37.279 hard to maintain hope. 170 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:39.840 Yeah, I mean, And we hear from some of them. 171 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.480 We hear from Peter certainly. Here's from colleagues, some of 172 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:47.039 the career scientists who worked in NIH and the Center 173 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:54.200 for Disease Control CDC. And I hear from you know, 174 00:10:54.279 --> 00:11:00.279 some of my colleagues who are at science institution that 175 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.799 are involved in some way in atmospheric science or ocean 176 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:08.360 science or climate science, Noah, the e p A, et cetera. 177 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:13.399 We hear stories from colleagues who you know, are are 178 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.159 still somehow there or in many cases, who have been 179 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.399 let go over the past several months as the current administration, 180 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:26.000 the Trump administration looks to pretty much dismantle the infrastructure 181 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:31.039 for public health science in the US, the infrastructure for climate, 182 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:37.960 advancing the science of climate and advancing the solutions. It's 183 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.759 it's it's demoralizing. I know for these folks, many of 184 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:44.240 them are without jobs. But more than that, you know, 185 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.720 this was their life's work. They you know, we're talking 186 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:53.120 about career scientists who had no you know, didn't didn't 187 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.960 go into this for any political agenda. They went into 188 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.120 it because they loved doing science and they wanted to 189 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:01.799 do science for the public good. And now we have 190 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.559 a government that, you know, there's no other way to 191 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:08.679 put it, is trying to weaponize anti science for the 192 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:09.480 public bad. 193 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.799 Yeah. Yeah, And I mean that's that's something that's so 194 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:17.519 obvious to those of us who have dedicated our lives 195 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:22.320 to scientific inquiry and to kind of understanding and utilizing 196 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:27.240 the scientific method. But it makes me wonder, like maybe 197 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:29.559 this is the psychologist in me. But I'm always trying 198 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.240 to sort of empathize, as hard as it may be 199 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.399 with the position of the current administration or Project twenty 200 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:39.120 twenty five or of like whichever architects you want to 201 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:43.240 talk about. They must know what's going to happen. So 202 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.279 is this intentional? Is it they want to make their 203 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:51.759 be you know, public like a lack of public sort 204 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:56.759 of engagement so that authoritarianism can rule. Like is that 205 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:58.600 the endgame here? What is the point? 206 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.080 Yeah? No, I just and what you're saying, we'd like 207 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.480 to believe that like our fellow human beings, aren't just 208 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:06.519 purely being evil for the sake. 209 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:09.440 Of valuable unfortunately in. 210 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:14.039 The world, you know, and it's there's there's a famous 211 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:20.559 quote attributed to Upton Sinclair, the early sort of a 212 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:27.000 you know, public figure journalist muckraker in the early nineteen hundreds, 213 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.480 once famously said that, you know, it's very difficult to 214 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.879 get a man to understand something when his salary depends 215 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:37.600 on him not understanding it. And I think, unfortunately, that 216 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:43.039 is you know, a pretty a pretty appropriate framing for 217 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.519 a lot of what we're seeing. We're talking about people 218 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.720 who are too well educated and too smart to believe 219 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.799 much of the nonsense and the propaganda that they are 220 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:56.600 actively promoting. Now, some of these people are ideologue. Some 221 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.240 of these people may believe their own rhetoric. I believe 222 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.559 that's true of RFK Junior, you know, as misguided as 223 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.159 he is, I think he actually believes a lot of 224 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.799 what he's saying. And well, we don't really know if 225 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.200 it's RFK Junior or the worm who ate his brain, 226 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.240 but that's coming out of him appears to be an 227 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:20.000 authentic sort of expression of his viewpoints. But in many cases, 228 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.840 it's a purely cynical gambit by people who are focused 229 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:27.440 on achieving as much short term profit and power as 230 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.120 they possibly can at the expense of the rest of us, 231 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.360 as the expense of scientific truth, and at the expense 232 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:35.360 of good faith discourse. 233 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.159 Absolutely, And I think it's such an important point that 234 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.440 we cannot look at what is happening right now in 235 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:46.279 a vacuum. We can only look at it in the 236 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.559 context of this sort of like deregulated capitalism, of this 237 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.120 era of extreme wealth and extreme income inequality. And I 238 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.240 think that you made a really good point there that 239 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:03.159 bears sort of amplifying, which is there's a big difference 240 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.440 between the architects and the propagandists and then the people 241 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.799 who believe them. The people are harmed by them, vote 242 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.360 for them and maybe continue to amplify their message, But 243 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.440 we're not the architects of that message. 244 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:21.200 Yeah. Thanks, That's such an important distinction. It's one that 245 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.200 we do try to draw out in the book. You know, 246 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:26.679 many of the folks who are down in the trenches, 247 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.440 you know social media, you know, not the bots and 248 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:36.240 the professional trolls, but actual real people who have fallen 249 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:39.960 victim to this disinformation campaign. And I use the term 250 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:45.960 victim pointedly because they're victims of a disinformation campaign. Now, 251 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.200 those who are behind the campaign, well those are those 252 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.320 are the villains in this story. But the ordinary people 253 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.960 who believe what they're hearing because they're bombarded by this 254 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:05.759 disinformation because there are rhetorician rhetoricians who are especially skilled 255 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.200 at sort of tapping into the reptilian parts of the 256 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.320 human brain, and I think that that's a lot of 257 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:17.039 what's going on. People who, you know, are if you're 258 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.240 constantly watching Fox News and reading the Wall Street Journal 259 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.840 editorial pages, you have a view of the world that 260 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.240 is so you know, out of bounds, that is so 261 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:33.759 fundamentally inconsistent with the way the world actually is, and 262 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.320 it's easy for people to become trapped in that epistemic 263 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:42.639 bubble where they're just bombarded with this this disinform Now 264 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.639 Fox News is pumping out the disinformation for the most 265 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.240 cynical purposes. And we know that they've lost lawsuits over 266 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.159 that they know they're lying. It's been proven in court 267 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:54.879 that they know they're lying. But it's the people who 268 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.360 are listening to them in many cases, you know, and 269 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:01.519 we might not like their politics. They might be maga, 270 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.160 what have you, We might not agree with them, but nonetheless, 271 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:08.000 in a very real sense, they are victims of this 272 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:12.640 disinformation campaign. And they're victims in part because they're being 273 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:18.240 convinced to support policies and to vote against their own interest, 274 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:21.359 whether it's you know, public health, whether it's the future 275 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:23.400 of the planet for their children, et cetera. 276 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:28.480 Yeah, doublely victimized, because number one, they are going to 277 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.599 be harmed. I mean, just like any progressive, you know, 278 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.519 a conservative is going to be harmed by these policies 279 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.000 as well. And number two, they're sort of facilitating their 280 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.759 own demise without even in a lot of ways being 281 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.960 duped into facilitating their own demise. 282 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.079 Yeah, that's what's so tragic here, no question about it. 283 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.000 And so you know, I'm curious we sort of already mentioned, 284 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.640 but obviously we can go a bit deeper. You know. 285 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:57.240 In the book, you guys sort of divide it into 286 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.279 like the forces that are threatening science right now into 287 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.599 like five ps. And in a way we've already touched 288 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.759 on plutocrats and propagandists. What are the other three? 289 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.519 Yeah, so the plutocrats, you know, the Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch, 290 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.720 Elon Musk who the control of the Purse Springs, who 291 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:18.720 fund the disinformation and for their own ideological or political 292 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.599 or self interest. Then you know the Petro States, Russia, 293 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:24.839 Saudi Arabia. You would have to say the United States 294 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:30.160 right now under Trump and Republican Congress. You know, countries 295 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.279 that basically have an anti science agenda with respect to 296 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.200 clean energy and climate driven by you know, their dependence 297 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.440 on fossil fuels for their economy. So those are the 298 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.319 petro states. And this is synergistic because often these forces 299 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:50.000 are interacting, they're working together. I would put there are 300 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.480 two more piece that are technically part of the five, 301 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.160 the polluters and the politicians of those petro states who 302 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:58.359 enable that agenda. 303 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:01.319 And then, real quick before you move on, would you 304 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:05.799 consider because you know, obviously petro kind of denotes fossil fuels, 305 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:08.119 but would you also consider like the rare earth metals 306 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:09.960 and the mining industry and all of these sort of 307 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.680 newer requirements for to kind of keep up with current 308 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.400 technology in that bucket. 309 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:18.400 Yeah. Absolutely. And one of the things that Peter and 310 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:20.039 I talk about is even though we use that term 311 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.599 petro state in part because we're I'm wedded to alliteration, 312 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.319 so there or therefore we had to find you know, 313 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.920 peas like peas in a pod. But these five peas. 314 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.000 But the you know, one of the things we talk 315 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.920 about is there is this historical relationship between resource extraction 316 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.880 driven economies and petros. That's the sense in which we're 317 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.279 using petro states, not just oil, natural gas, and coal 318 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:53.839 fossil fuels, but extractionist countries that primarily whose economy is 319 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.240 primarily driven by the extraction of natural resources. These countries 320 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:01.920 tend to be authoritarian, tend to have an anti science 321 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:07.000 agenda through and through, And we can get if you want, 322 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.079 we can get into how is it that like some 323 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:13.960 of these same petro states and plutocrats hopped on the 324 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:18.799 anti vax train. You know What's we understand why they 325 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:23.160 dispute climate science and fight against renewable energy because it's 326 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.079 a direct challenge to their fossil fuel business model. But 327 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:29.200 how why is it that they became you know, antagonistic 328 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:33.599 to the public health community. But they but they did, 329 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:36.440 and so there is this relay. These petro states really 330 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:41.599 are more generally authoritarian regimes that are driven by a 331 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:46.640 political agenda which is propped up by anti. 332 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.119 Science absolutely, and I think it's funny because I get 333 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:51.680 into this is going to be in the weeds for 334 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:54.920 like two seconds here, But because you know the sgu guys, 335 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.200 and because you've been on the show before, I have 336 00:20:57.319 --> 00:20:59.720 to bring up here and you know I publicly talk 337 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:01.880 about this with them as well. One of our biggest 338 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.799 sticking points when we do argue on the show, which 339 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:06.640 I you know we don't, we don't because we agree 340 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:10.400 about a lot of things, has to do with crude 341 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:18.920 space travel and with sort of this motivation crude oil. Yeah, no, 342 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:24.440 crude like exactly yeah. I know, I know the new 343 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:28.319 nomenclature doesn't always work in an audio format, but so 344 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.160 this idea and they are like just gung ho pro 345 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:37.200 space travel in almost every single form. And I am 346 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.319 always very eked out and reticent when it comes to 347 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:44.799 sending people into, you know, the far flung regions of 348 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:46.759 space wherever we might be able to go, because it 349 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:53.319 does seem to be that the motivation is almost always extractive, colonial, geopolitical, 350 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.039 and I just don't think you can tease those things apart. 351 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.559 But you know that I hear a common argument that 352 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:04.279 it's like, no, it's just you know, the human uh, 353 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:07.759 you know, spirit of wanting to understand what we don't 354 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:09.920 yet under And I love that and it's very pure, 355 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.759 but it also feels so naive to me. Yeah, even 356 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:15.519 if you look back to the early explorers like it 357 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.559 was gross, it was a gross time. 358 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:21.799 Yeah, well, no, it's it's it's a fascinating topic. I've 359 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:26.400 seen that same tension and in conversations with with you know, 360 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.839 fellow science advocates, and I think it's historical in part. 361 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.599 I think it's part of the historical legacy of you know, 362 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:36.839 Carl Sagan and my friend Bill Nye, who is still 363 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:41.680 very much support that because there's something that it just somehow, 364 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.440 something in our consciousness. And in fact, Sagan has a 365 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:48.359 wonderful discussion of this. I forget which book, it might 366 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.119 be Pale Blue Dot and one of his books it's like, 367 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.200 why as a species are we driven? Are like almost 368 00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.440 it's in our constitution two, you know, to only go 369 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:05.720 where no human has gone before, right, and and space 370 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:09.960 travel is an extension of that. But it's what drove migrations, 371 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:14.759 this need to diversify, this need to find new groups 372 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:20.599 of people to expand our horizons and and somehow it's 373 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:24.240 ingrained in our in our psyche and our collective consciousness. 374 00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:26.799 And so I understand that, and I think that was 375 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.680 I think, you know, people who have been very influential 376 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.839 in this, in this world, the science communication world, like 377 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.640 Carl Sagan, I think, did you know? And it's sort 378 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:40.680 of eloquently expressed in the book and then movie Contact, 379 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:43.920 for example, where Jody Foster, you know, is the star 380 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.480 scientist again undergoing you know, I won't give it away 381 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.119 for those who had seen it, but probably through space 382 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:55.759 and time to extend our horizons. So I think it's there. 383 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.400 I think it's culturally there in our world, in the 384 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.839 world of science communication. But there is, you know, there's 385 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:08.640 this conflict because you're right, from a purely cerebral standpoint, 386 00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:12.240 if we're you know, trying to if we're talking about 387 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.200 what's the most efficient way for us, in the safest 388 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.319 way for us to extend our knowledge, is not clear 389 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:18.880 that it's necessary. 390 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.400 Right, And we have robots now, right, yes, and there 391 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.279 are ways to go do these things without, you know, 392 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:27.119 but even for one robot, you. 393 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:30.000 Know, for one welcome our new robot overlord. So let 394 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:32.759 me just be firmly on records with that they can't 395 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:34.519 screw up the planet more than we did. 396 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.960 Yes, and especially when it comes to space travel. But 397 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:42.400 I digress. I do think that each of these obviously 398 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:44.759 five main forces which which you guys get so deep 399 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.319 into in the book, there are just layers upon layers 400 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:51.160 upon layers. So we mentioned the plutocrats, we mentioned the 401 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:56.559