WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.919 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.679 June twenty ninth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host 3 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:22.679 of the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria, and I do 4 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:26.079 want to apologize for not putting out a new episode 5 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:29.280 last week. It has been just a hell of a 6 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:32.640 time over here. In addition to if you listen to 7 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.240 The Skeptics Guide to the Universe, the other show that 8 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.960 I work on, you may have heard that, in addition 9 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:41.439 to something as innocuous as having an endoscopy kolenoscopy in 10 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:43.799 the middle of the week that threw things off, two 11 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:50.719 such large concerns as Evan Bernstein's resignation from the SGU, 12 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:54.640 and I would turn you to the most recent episode 13 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:56.960 of SGU to learn more about that, all the way 14 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.640 to the tragic news that we recently received at my 15 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:05.519 work in the hospital of the death of my direct supervisor. 16 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:09.280 It's just been it's been a trying week, and unfortunately 17 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:11.159 I just wasn't able to make it to air last week. 18 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.920 So I appreciate your patients, and I'm glad that you're 19 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:16.959 sticking with me, because this week we've got a really 20 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:19.879 good one for you. But before we do dive into 21 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:22.239 this week's episode. As always, I want to thank those 22 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:26.000 of you who make Talk Nerdy possible. Remember, this show 23 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:29.359 is and will always be one hundred percent free to download, 24 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:33.239 and the way we can offset that fee basically provide 25 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:36.480 this free service, especially for all those who either can't 26 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.400 afford or just you know, can't prioritize paying for podcasts 27 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:44.159 in their life. It's that individuals like you are offsetting 28 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:47.319 that cost. The way we do it is using the 29 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.959 Patreon model, which means you pledge your support on an 30 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.439 episodic basis. And so right now, I just want to 31 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.560 thank my top patrons this week. They include Chuck Blell, 32 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.760 David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang, Mary Neva, Will Defrain, 33 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:06.200 David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabo, Jay l Rica Hagman, Pasqually Gelati, 34 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:10.199 Rica Maharaj and Joe Wilkinson. Thank you all, and if 35 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:12.360 you're interested in pledging your support, all you've got to 36 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:16.400 do is visit patreon dot com slash Talk Nerdy to 37 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.919 learn more. All right, this week I had the opportunity 38 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:25.039 to chat with Roxanne Camsie. She is an author and 39 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:29.599 a science communicator. She's written for a ton of outlets, 40 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:33.479 that you read New York Times, The Economist, Popular Science, Scientific, 41 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.919 American Slate, Nott, GEO, on and on and on. She 42 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:41.000 is a contributing writer for The Atlantic. Currently and historically, 43 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:45.560 she served as chief news editor at Nature Medicine, which is, 44 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:48.719 you know, a huge research journal. She did that for 45 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:51.039 over a decade, and before that she was a reporter 46 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:56.080 for New Scientist magazine, which is also a widely circulating 47 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:01.759 UK based science magazine. She also has taught at stony 48 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.599 Brook University in Long Island through the Allen Alda Center 49 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.680 for Communicating Science, and at the Craig Newmark Graduate School 50 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:11.360 of Journalism at the City University New York. And she 51 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.479 served on the editorial advisory board of ted MEHD. She 52 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:17.919 has a new book. She has her first book, so 53 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:22.479 this is very very exciting. It's called Beyond Inheritance, Our 54 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:26.280 Ever Mutating Cells and a New Understanding of Health. 55 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:27.759 So, without any. 56 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:31.759 Further ado, here she is Roxanne Camsie. 57 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:34.879 Well, Roxanne, thank you so much for joining me today. 58 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:36.560 Thank you. Garrett's great to be here. 59 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.719 I always love to talk to a veteran science journalist, 60 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:45.400 especially one who writes a full length book, because I 61 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:48.479 don't know I struggle. Man. I don't know how you 62 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:52.280 do it. It's so much work. Does it come easy 63 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.639 for you? Or was it like a real slog? 64 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:57.199 And I always wanted to write a book that that 65 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.479 was one of my goals when I was growing up. 66 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:01.800 I think part of it, you know, I think, you know, 67 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.360 like as you get older, you realize how And I've 68 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:07.400 been doing science journalism for two decades, so I feel 69 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.199 like I can kind of say say something with that 70 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:12.240 kind of statement. But I do feel that you understand 71 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.879 how much just wanting to do something and feeling like 72 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:18.040 the idea comes to you and you have to really 73 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:22.600 run with it is a large part of what keeps 74 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.279 you going through it. And I was really curious what 75 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:27.040 it would be like because this was a topic that 76 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.959 I felt I couldn't do in just a magazine feature. 77 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:33.879 This idea in this book is about how our DNA 78 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:38.959 changes every single day of our lives. And there were 79 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.759 a bunch of different scientists from a different fields that 80 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:44.120 were coming to the same conclusion, but just like really 81 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.319 not talking to one another, not understanding how this idea 82 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.399 has been percolating throughout decades of history. So I felt 83 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:53.079 like there's no way to do that in five thousand 84 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.079 words or ten thousand words. It's really an idea you 85 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.160 want to sit with and like peel apart like an onion. 86 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:04.079 Yeah, And for some journalists who are writing long form, 87 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:06.360 when they finally write the book, they're like, oh, I 88 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.240 had this one piece, or I wrote multiple pieces and 89 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.040 I was able to kind of synthesize, but add to it. 90 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:16.000 Have you nibbled around the edges of this in any 91 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.199 of your publications in magazines or is this the first time? 92 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:24.879 So I went to Florida in twenty seventeen and I've 93 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:27.079 gotten this tip from a scientist that there was like 94 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.079 this interesting stuff going on in the field of cancer, 95 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.279 where you know, they're basically getting the idea that like 96 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.160 it's not just one or two mutations that causes cancer 97 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:38.720 to form in your body, it's a whole bunch. And 98 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.160 then there's like sometimes even like what's called a big 99 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.639 bang of mutations in the cancer. So there's like thousands 100 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.639 of mutations in one person's tumor. And then there were 101 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:52.560 these scientists that the Moffit in Tampa, Florida, and they 102 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:56.600 they were trying to understand how they could like play 103 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:01.120 cancer cells against one another by removing and restarting therapy 104 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:05.560 at like specific intervals. So like they'd take away the 105 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.639 drugs that were giving these patients with prostate cancer and 106 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:12.079 like let the drug sensitive cells like grow faster than 107 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:16.240 the drug resistance cells, and then they'd hit the cancer 108 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:20.079 with the treatment and like be able to knock out 109 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.759 more of it using that approach. So just kind of 110 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.199 just the way in the wilderness, like certain animals compete 111 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:28.879 against one another for like resources. They were taking that 112 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:35.040 idea and applying it to the cancers to help this 113 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:39.639 essentially the cancer cells with the less worse mutations take over. 114 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.759 And so how did you even start thinking about that? 115 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:47.399 Like how did you even get to the place where 116 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:48.879 this was on your mind? 117 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:51.920 Oh? Well, yeah, so I didn't finish that thought really, 118 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:53.879 So like that was that was from a tip from 119 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.120 a scientist who was like, hey, like cancer biologists are 120 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:00.120 really taking this idea of like evolution in the body 121 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.519 like is happening, and we can leverage it. But then 122 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:05.839 when I came back, I was like looking at research 123 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:07.720 papers for another part of my job at the time. 124 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:12.199 I was in addition to like writing for you know, Wired, 125 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.480 where I published that story and the new York Times 126 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.439 magazine is like a freelance journalist. I had a day 127 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:19.920 job as an editor at a research journal called Nature Medicine, 128 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.560 and I was like doing a news roundup and I 129 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:27.000 found this paper that was talking about how mutant blood cells, 130 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.519 so cells that are acquired mutations in the blood were 131 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.720 linked to an increased risk of heart disease and stroke. 132 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:35.839 And I was like, well, that's that's different from cancer. 133 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.639 Like I knew that we could acquire mutations as we 134 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.160 grow older, but I didn't know that that caused more 135 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.480 than cancer. And then I was just like dug around 136 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.439 and I found out, Okay, well it's not just like cancer. 137 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:47.879 It's not just heart disease. It's also like epilepsy, it's 138 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:56.120 like Alzheimer's, it's liver conditions. Like all sorts of mutations 139 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.800 can pile up in the body, and ultimately it's probably 140 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:02.319 the main driver of aging, or potentially a large driver 141 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:05.279 of agent. Just the idea that we rack up errors 142 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.959 in our DNA over time and they stay in ourselves 143 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.199 because it's easy to get a mutation, but it's hard 144 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:14.480 to like erase it. So I just I saw these 145 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.720 threads coming together and I was like Okay, Like I 146 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:21.040 got to pitch this as a book, and I wrote 147 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:23.199 it and I recorded the audiobook, and I feel kind 148 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.199 of like, I feel like I needed to spend time 149 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.319 with it and to really dig into the historical archives 150 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:34.440 and find how this idea has just like been like 151 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:36.919 over a century in the making, and why we're we're 152 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:38.440 going to be talking about it so much more in 153 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:38.879 the future. 154 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.480 Well, and also just why not many people are talking 155 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.679 about it. I mean, even as you're introducing this concept, 156 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.879 and you know, my bias is that I now work 157 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.320 as a psychologist in a cancer center in addition to 158 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:57.279 doing you know, the public science communication that I continue 159 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:00.679 to do, I can't help but think, Okay, what you 160 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.000 were describing, Like, gosh, I don't even phrase this question 161 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.399 with regards to other disease states. 162 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:11.159 How now, how do we define cancer? 163 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:12.200 Right? 164 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:14.960 Yeah? Like, yeah, Well, I mean that's the thing. It's 165 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.919 like a lot of the scientists when they talk about 166 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:19.240 mutant cells, they have to kind of preface it by saying, Okay, 167 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.320 these are like these. 168 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:22.639 Are non. 169 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.799 Non malignant, but like non cancer cells, but there are 170 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:29.840 mutant cells in the body. And it's interesting because you know, 171 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:36.679 you talk about cancer patients and you know psychology and 172 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:40.600 there you're talking about. You know, obviously with cancer there's 173 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:45.639 mutant cells that drive like that, like growth, and also 174 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.600 oftentimes the resistance to the chemotherapy and all the treatments 175 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.039 and blood vessels and yeah, yeah, there are a lot 176 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.559 of things they do are like rewiring themselves essentially. But 177 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.440 then on top of that, it's interesting because then you're 178 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:03.000 also hving psychology in the brain and you know, there 179 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.879 is that sense of DNA change. We know that happens 180 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:09.399 in our bodies that causes cancer, but like you're saying, 181 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:12.159 like a lot of people haven't yet really fully understood 182 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.960 that even the healthy quote unquote healthy cells in our bodies, 183 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.600 in our brains, for example, we're picking up trillions of 184 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:23.279 mutations every day. Like by the time a person is 185 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:25.799 one hundred years old, they've looked at centenarians and they've 186 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:29.200 taken cells from their blood and they've found that, you know, 187 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.759 there's around three thousand mutations in a given cell that 188 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:34.159 aren't all in the other parts of the body. So 189 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.639 you know, we're just kind of every day our cells 190 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:42.919 through wear and tear break, their DNA breaks, and like 191 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.360 we have DNA repair enzymes, but they don't always do 192 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:47.759 a perfect job. I like to say they're human too, right, 193 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:53.279 So if a mistake's made in the patching up, it 194 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.759 just carries to all the daughter cells. So see, I 195 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.279 do think that this is something important for people to understand, 196 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:02.559 not just on a metaphysical like you know, meaning of 197 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:04.679 the universe thing where you and I are having this 198 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.919 conversation and our brain cells are mutating even as we're talking, 199 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.759 but also to understand like what it does mean for 200 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.320 cancer treatment, what it does mean for the diagnosis of 201 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:18.480 diseases like heart disease, and our risk factors for these things. 202 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.440 So I'm kind of on a mission for people to 203 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.320 get the idea that our biology is just like much 204 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.879 more dynamic than they might have traditionally thought. 205 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.000 Yeah, and so I feel like there's so many different 206 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:33.519 ways to approach this, you know. I think, just as 207 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:35.480 questions pop into my head, I'm going to approach it 208 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.840 in the most nonlinear way possible and see if anyone 209 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.480 can follow. But one of the questions that comes up 210 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.759 right at the top is maybe we can talk. 211 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.639 A little bit about like what is a mutation? 212 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:54.120 What happens in our body when our genetic material does mutate, 213 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:55.919 and like, what are some of the checks and balances, 214 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:58.840 Because obviously you mentioned before like when there are times 215 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.519 where the error correction does doesn't work, or where the 216 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.519 like the load is too high, it may be passed on. 217 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.200 But there are plenty of times where you know, mutations 218 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:09.960 are happening all the time, and our cells are really 219 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:11.519 good at correcting that, right. 220 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.559 Yeah, absolutely, yeah, Well they're good at correcting certain like 221 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.759 so mutations kind of I mean, if a scientist might 222 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:22.639 consider a distinction between DNA damage and mutation, I don't 223 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.399 because I think that ultimately the lay people kind of 224 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:28.679 understanding them is the same thing. So it's a scientists mind. 225 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:32.320 A mutation is usually when like there are let's just 226 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:34.279 back up for a second. Our DNA in each of 227 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:38.639 our cells is comprised of these essentially letters, like scientists 228 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:43.639 will call them nucleotides, but they're actg for all intents 229 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:49.360 and purposes here and there's three billion If you line 230 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.480 up all the DNA in a given cell of yours, 231 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:53.919 there be like three billion of the string of like 232 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:55.919 three billion letters if you lined it all up together. 233 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:59.559 And so imagine having to copy that every time you 234 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.080 make a new right, they copy the DNA into the 235 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.080 new cell. If I gave you a book with three 236 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:06.600 billion letters and I was like, Kara, like write this 237 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:09.279 all down with a pen, I mean, I trust in 238 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:11.879 you very deeply, but I also think you like me, 239 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.200 would probably accidentally, like if it was like attcg like 240 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.480 maybe you'd say att, I don't know GCCC, I don't know, 241 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:21.360 like you know, like there's. 242 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:23.799 Yeah, like i'd switch some or some would get left out, 243 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.240 or I might add a line somewhere on accident, and. 244 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:27.679 I shouldn't put it on you. Let's talk about it. 245 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:29.840 If I were to do this, I would make right 246 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.000 so so even in just the copy and like, oh, 247 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.840 we have so much cell turnover. So a mutation in 248 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:38.519 this sense would be like if we did make if you, 249 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.159 you are or me one of us made, or you 250 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:44.600 or I made like an error in the copying, that 251 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.639 would be considered a mutation. Because when the when the 252 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:49.480 the next cell would like go on to like read 253 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:53.320 that instruction booklet right of DNA to make the proteins 254 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.360 that needs to process I don't know sugar or like 255 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.799 I don't like run some kind of oration in the cell. 256 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:04.000 It would it would kind of go to that gene 257 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:05.639 and all of a sudden be like wait a second, 258 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.919 like this gene this isn't working because there's an error. 259 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.720 So that's when you get in trouble with mutations that 260 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:14.320 they can happen in parts of the DNA that like 261 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:17.360 don't have an effect, right or that cell might die, 262 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.480 in which case, no biggie, it might happen somewhere where 263 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:22.080 it does matter. 264 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:28.000 And so oftentimes when it does happen, because like it's 265 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.000 gonna happen, because that's just the nature of being alive, 266 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.559 there are like mechanisms in place to like find it 267 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:38.320 and either like you mentioned, kill that cell so that 268 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:42.600 it doesn't wreak havoc or do some type of correction 269 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:44.799 so that there's not a big downstream effect. 270 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.200 But there are like error correction mechanisms in the cell. 271 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.000 But it kind of works better where there's like a 272 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:55.000 big mistake. The cell can spots when it's something where 273 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:56.960 like there's a single letter change, and again that's kind 274 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.639 of where we're talking about DNA breaks, which the cell 275 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.240 is like easier, it's easier for them to recognize. But 276 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.559 if it's just like one letter's wrong, I mean again, 277 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.440 going back to the book. It's like, imagine if I 278 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.399 like forgot, Like if there's like a paragraph and I 279 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.519 pressed return in the middle of the paragraph, your eyes 280 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:17.840 could like spot that. Yeah, But if I changed like 281 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.360 H to C in a word like hat to cat, like, 282 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:25.279 you might be like less able to catch that mistake. 283 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.840 And yet a single letter changed like that can have 284 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:34.679 huge effects. Like there are many, many, many inherited disorders, 285 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:39.440 for example, where somebody's life is just truncated because of 286 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:44.960 a single letter that's wrong, and it's uh. One of 287 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.200 the injustices I think of our biology is that, like 288 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:49.320 it's so fragile in some ways. 289 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.919 Yeah, And so there's these examples like you mentioned, where 290 00:15:54.159 --> 00:16:02.679 there are mistakes, mutations, damage to DNA that get passed 291 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:07.240 down generation to generation, especially in situations where maybe the 292 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:09.919 symptoms don't come into later in life after somebody's already 293 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.480 had kids, or situations where you only have like a 294 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.960 one in four chance of getting that they tend to 295 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.639 continue throughout the population. 296 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:19.759 But there are other. 297 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:23.799 Examples, as you mentioned before, where your own DNA is 298 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:29.039 damaged throughout the life span due to mutagens, carcinogens, things 299 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.279 like that, and then disease states can occur within a 300 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:33.639 single life span as well. 301 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.519 Right, Yeah, So part of my mission is to kind 302 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.559 of reframe even how we hear the words genetic disease. 303 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.559 Like I meant, you and me, if we had this 304 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:44.879 conversation ten years ago and we said genetic disease, we 305 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:50.000 would automatically think inherited disease inherent Oh I still do. 306 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.679 I definitely think heretically when you say, yeah, genetic disease. 307 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:57.639 Okay, So you know, we think about things like cystic bibrosis, 308 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:06.400 where severely tragic disease where there's like you know, like 309 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:12.599 a mutation that will disturb how cells kind of their 310 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.880 channels work to move stuff around and what happens. Ultimately 311 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.559 it affects different organs, but the lungs are primarily affected, 312 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.960 where you are just more prone to these infections that 313 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.400 you and I would not need to worry about assuming 314 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:33.440 you don't have CF. Like a little asterix there, which 315 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.960 is like there's these new drugs that have come that 316 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.559 have completely changed the disease so that ninety percent of 317 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:43.079 people with CF now have this great solution where essentially 318 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:47.920 they can correct the gene function. But let's think about 319 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.440 you know, that's an exception, A lot of these diseases 320 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:56.839 don't yet have these easy to take medications. I'm getting 321 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.079 a little sidetracked, but just to say that, like CF 322 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:04.480 sickle cell does these muscular dystrophee. People probably heard some 323 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.559 of these name Tay Sachs, PKU, like all these different 324 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:15.359 inherited disorders where maybe like there's a metabolic error, they're 325 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.559 they're generally things that have been passed generations, right. They 326 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.359 c F has traced back thousands of years to Assistic 327 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.119 fibrosis is traced back thousands of years to Europe. Some 328 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.119 of the some of the mutations right for. 329 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.240 Then you mentioned Tay Sachs. Like anybody who has done 330 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:36.000 a DNA test and knows that they are predominantly Ashkenazi 331 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.799 inherited in their heritage and is partnering with somebody who's 332 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.680 ashkan Nazi, they'll often do a lot of genetic counseling 333 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.799 before even deciding to have children, right, because there are 334 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.599 genetic diseases that are so prevalent within that population. 335 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.200 And these are just you know, like you say, like that, 336 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.519 you can look in the family tree and you can 337 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:55.519 just find a bunch of people affected by these because 338 00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:01.839 they are passed down. Now, now, genetic disease is not 339 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.799 always inherited, like like you alluded to. In my book, 340 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.599 I talk about how it could happen at any point, 341 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.920 like anytime after for example, like the sperm and the 342 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.799 egg that may do came together, and there's a lot 343 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:20.640 of cell division that happens at the embryo development stage. 344 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.759 I'm kind of laughing as I'm saying this because I 345 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.279 have a son, and when I was pregnant with him, 346 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.480 I kept, you know, all women who are pregnant are 347 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.599 just get so thirsty. We're like drinking water all the time. 348 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.240 And it's partly because like there's a lot of cell 349 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:39.319 division that's happening, and you it's like very energetically intensive, 350 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:45.480 it's very rapid. And I say this because, like imagine 351 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:47.799 I asked you to I gave as I care here, 352 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.279 like take this book and copy it like letter for letter, 353 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.359 and you have let's say it's a two hundred page book, 354 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:55.559 and I can give you six months. Okay, that's like 355 00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:00.119 basically the cell turnover of an adult. It's approximate. But 356 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:02.319 then if I said I'm going to give you two 357 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.359 days to do it, that's kind of what's going on. 358 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:08.759 When it's early embryonic development, things just happen faster. The 359 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.599 copying happens faster, and so I think, you know, there's 360 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.160 a lot of errors that can happen, and they do, 361 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:20.680 and so genetic disease can happen when embryonic cells acquire 362 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.240 a mistake because the DNA was like there was a 363 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:28.440 mistake in the in the replication, or it can happen. 364 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.480 You know here what you and I are sitting, we 365 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.240 might have a mutation that crops up in us that 366 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.960 is pathogenic, could cause cancer, or it could cause could 367 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.920 cause good things. I mean, my book also talks about 368 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:43.599 how we rely on mutation to survive, and like as 369 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:47.279 we get older, you know, one or to two out 370 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.440 of every I always get this number. I want to 371 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.880 get this right. It's like one out of every five 372 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.880 or one out everyvery ten people seventy years or older 373 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.559 has a threshold level of these mutant blood cells that 374 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.359 have kind of just happened to accumulate over their lifespan 375 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:08.200 that can double their risk of heart disease or double 376 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.359 their risk of str So it's common. It's common, Like 377 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.200 men don't know it, but like by the time men 378 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.359 are in their seventies, like forty to fifty percent of 379 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.119 them have a substantial number of their blood cells missing 380 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.319 the Y chromosome or cells in their blood I should say, 381 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:25.640 because red blood cells don't have a nucleus, but like 382 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.119 other cell like white blood cells, like they're just they 383 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:31.039 just tend to lose their Y chromosome as they get older. 384 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.759 It's already so small, it's not a lot there to 385 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:37.119 lose compared to the X. 386 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:37.839 That's a sure. 387 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.559 Yeah, I'm not gonna cry too many tears about this, 388 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.720 but and it's interesting because people are like, so what well, 389 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:47.640 loss of why? And also, by the way, there is 390 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:50.079 loss of X two because women have two X chromesales 391 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:52.079 and they do tend to lose an X chromosome as 392 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.000 we get older, but it's less because we have like 393 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:58.079 a backup. It's less fucky, less intensive. But we just 394 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.920 don't know as much because of course they haven't studied 395 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.240 women as much as they've studied men. 396 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:04.440 Of course, shocker. 397 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.519 But the loss of why, which has been better studied, 398 00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:11.720 is linked to like a whole host like risk of 399 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:14.720 Alzheimer's is up, risk of cancer is up. But the 400 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.599 thing is, it's not clear whether it's causal. It might 401 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:21.440