1 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:15,919 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,679 June twenty ninth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host 3 00:00:19,679 --> 00:00:22,679 of the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria, and I do 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,079 want to apologize for not putting out a new episode 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,280 last week. It has been just a hell of a 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,640 time over here. In addition to if you listen to 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,240 The Skeptics Guide to the Universe, the other show that 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,960 I work on, you may have heard that, in addition 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,439 to something as innocuous as having an endoscopy kolenoscopy in 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,799 the middle of the week that threw things off, two 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:50,719 such large concerns as Evan Bernstein's resignation from the SGU, 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,640 and I would turn you to the most recent episode 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,960 of SGU to learn more about that, all the way 14 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,640 to the tragic news that we recently received at my 15 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:05,519 work in the hospital of the death of my direct supervisor. 16 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,280 It's just been it's been a trying week, and unfortunately 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,159 I just wasn't able to make it to air last week. 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,920 So I appreciate your patients, and I'm glad that you're 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:16,959 sticking with me, because this week we've got a really 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,879 good one for you. But before we do dive into 21 00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:22,239 this week's episode. As always, I want to thank those 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,000 of you who make Talk Nerdy possible. Remember, this show 23 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:29,359 is and will always be one hundred percent free to download, 24 00:01:29,719 --> 00:01:33,239 and the way we can offset that fee basically provide 25 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:36,480 this free service, especially for all those who either can't 26 00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:39,400 afford or just you know, can't prioritize paying for podcasts 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,159 in their life. It's that individuals like you are offsetting 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,319 that cost. The way we do it is using the 29 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:49,959 Patreon model, which means you pledge your support on an 30 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:53,439 episodic basis. And so right now, I just want to 31 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:56,560 thank my top patrons this week. They include Chuck Blell, 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,760 David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang, Mary Neva, Will Defrain, 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:06,200 David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabo, Jay l Rica Hagman, Pasqually Gelati, 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,199 Rica Maharaj and Joe Wilkinson. Thank you all, and if 35 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:12,360 you're interested in pledging your support, all you've got to 36 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,400 do is visit patreon dot com slash Talk Nerdy to 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,919 learn more. All right, this week I had the opportunity 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,039 to chat with Roxanne Camsie. She is an author and 39 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,599 a science communicator. She's written for a ton of outlets, 40 00:02:29,599 --> 00:02:33,479 that you read New York Times, The Economist, Popular Science, Scientific, 41 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,919 American Slate, Nott, GEO, on and on and on. She 42 00:02:37,159 --> 00:02:41,000 is a contributing writer for The Atlantic. Currently and historically, 43 00:02:41,439 --> 00:02:45,560 she served as chief news editor at Nature Medicine, which is, 44 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,719 you know, a huge research journal. She did that for 45 00:02:48,759 --> 00:02:51,039 over a decade, and before that she was a reporter 46 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:56,080 for New Scientist magazine, which is also a widely circulating 47 00:02:56,199 --> 00:03:01,759 UK based science magazine. She also has taught at stony 48 00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:04,599 Brook University in Long Island through the Allen Alda Center 49 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,680 for Communicating Science, and at the Craig Newmark Graduate School 50 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:11,360 of Journalism at the City University New York. And she 51 00:03:11,439 --> 00:03:15,479 served on the editorial advisory board of ted MEHD. She 52 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,919 has a new book. She has her first book, so 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,479 this is very very exciting. It's called Beyond Inheritance, Our 54 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,280 Ever Mutating Cells and a New Understanding of Health. 55 00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:27,759 Speaker 2: So, without any. 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,759 Speaker 1: Further ado, here she is Roxanne Camsie. 57 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:34,879 Speaker 2: Well, Roxanne, thank you so much for joining me today. 58 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: Thank you. Garrett's great to be here. 59 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:40,719 Speaker 1: I always love to talk to a veteran science journalist, 60 00:03:40,919 --> 00:03:45,400 especially one who writes a full length book, because I 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,479 don't know I struggle. Man. I don't know how you 62 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,280 do it. It's so much work. Does it come easy 63 00:03:52,319 --> 00:03:54,639 for you? Or was it like a real slog? 64 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,199 Speaker 3: And I always wanted to write a book that that 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,479 was one of my goals when I was growing up. 66 00:03:59,759 --> 00:04:01,800 I think part of it, you know, I think, you know, 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,360 like as you get older, you realize how And I've 68 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,400 been doing science journalism for two decades, so I feel 69 00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:09,199 like I can kind of say say something with that 70 00:04:09,319 --> 00:04:12,240 kind of statement. But I do feel that you understand 71 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,879 how much just wanting to do something and feeling like 72 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:18,040 the idea comes to you and you have to really 73 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,600 run with it is a large part of what keeps 74 00:04:22,639 --> 00:04:25,279 you going through it. And I was really curious what 75 00:04:25,319 --> 00:04:27,040 it would be like because this was a topic that 76 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,959 I felt I couldn't do in just a magazine feature. 77 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:33,879 This idea in this book is about how our DNA 78 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,959 changes every single day of our lives. And there were 79 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,759 a bunch of different scientists from a different fields that 80 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,120 were coming to the same conclusion, but just like really 81 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,319 not talking to one another, not understanding how this idea 82 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,399 has been percolating throughout decades of history. So I felt 83 00:04:51,439 --> 00:04:53,079 like there's no way to do that in five thousand 84 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:55,079 words or ten thousand words. It's really an idea you 85 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,160 want to sit with and like peel apart like an onion. 86 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:04,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, And for some journalists who are writing long form, 87 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,360 when they finally write the book, they're like, oh, I 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,240 had this one piece, or I wrote multiple pieces and 89 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,040 I was able to kind of synthesize, but add to it. 90 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,000 Have you nibbled around the edges of this in any 91 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,199 of your publications in magazines or is this the first time? 92 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,879 Speaker 3: So I went to Florida in twenty seventeen and I've 93 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,079 gotten this tip from a scientist that there was like 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,079 this interesting stuff going on in the field of cancer, 95 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,279 where you know, they're basically getting the idea that like 96 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,160 it's not just one or two mutations that causes cancer 97 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,720 to form in your body, it's a whole bunch. And 98 00:05:38,759 --> 00:05:41,160 then there's like sometimes even like what's called a big 99 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:43,639 bang of mutations in the cancer. So there's like thousands 100 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,639 of mutations in one person's tumor. And then there were 101 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:52,560 these scientists that the Moffit in Tampa, Florida, and they 102 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:56,600 they were trying to understand how they could like play 103 00:05:56,639 --> 00:06:01,120 cancer cells against one another by removing and restarting therapy 104 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:05,560 at like specific intervals. So like they'd take away the 105 00:06:05,639 --> 00:06:08,639 drugs that were giving these patients with prostate cancer and 106 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,079 like let the drug sensitive cells like grow faster than 107 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,240 the drug resistance cells, and then they'd hit the cancer 108 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:20,079 with the treatment and like be able to knock out 109 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,759 more of it using that approach. So just kind of 110 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:26,199 just the way in the wilderness, like certain animals compete 111 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:28,879 against one another for like resources. They were taking that 112 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:35,040 idea and applying it to the cancers to help this 113 00:06:35,319 --> 00:06:39,639 essentially the cancer cells with the less worse mutations take over. 114 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,759 Speaker 1: And so how did you even start thinking about that? 115 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,399 Like how did you even get to the place where 116 00:06:47,439 --> 00:06:48,879 this was on your mind? 117 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 3: Oh? Well, yeah, so I didn't finish that thought really, 118 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:53,879 So like that was that was from a tip from 119 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,120 a scientist who was like, hey, like cancer biologists are 120 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,120 really taking this idea of like evolution in the body 121 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,519 like is happening, and we can leverage it. But then 122 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,839 when I came back, I was like looking at research 123 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,720 papers for another part of my job at the time. 124 00:07:07,759 --> 00:07:12,199 I was in addition to like writing for you know, Wired, 125 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,480 where I published that story and the new York Times 126 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,439 magazine is like a freelance journalist. I had a day 127 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:19,920 job as an editor at a research journal called Nature Medicine, 128 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,560 and I was like doing a news roundup and I 129 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,000 found this paper that was talking about how mutant blood cells, 130 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,519 so cells that are acquired mutations in the blood were 131 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,720 linked to an increased risk of heart disease and stroke. 132 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:35,839 And I was like, well, that's that's different from cancer. 133 00:07:35,879 --> 00:07:38,639 Like I knew that we could acquire mutations as we 134 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:41,160 grow older, but I didn't know that that caused more 135 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:43,480 than cancer. And then I was just like dug around 136 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:45,439 and I found out, Okay, well it's not just like cancer. 137 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:47,879 It's not just heart disease. It's also like epilepsy, it's 138 00:07:47,959 --> 00:07:56,120 like Alzheimer's, it's liver conditions. Like all sorts of mutations 139 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,800 can pile up in the body, and ultimately it's probably 140 00:07:58,879 --> 00:08:02,319 the main driver of aging, or potentially a large driver 141 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,279 of agent. Just the idea that we rack up errors 142 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:07,959 in our DNA over time and they stay in ourselves 143 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,199 because it's easy to get a mutation, but it's hard 144 00:08:10,199 --> 00:08:14,480 to like erase it. So I just I saw these 145 00:08:14,519 --> 00:08:17,720 threads coming together and I was like Okay, Like I 146 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,040 got to pitch this as a book, and I wrote 147 00:08:21,079 --> 00:08:23,199 it and I recorded the audiobook, and I feel kind 148 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:27,199 of like, I feel like I needed to spend time 149 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,319 with it and to really dig into the historical archives 150 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,440 and find how this idea has just like been like 151 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,919 over a century in the making, and why we're we're 152 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:38,440 going to be talking about it so much more in 153 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:38,879 the future. 154 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: Well, and also just why not many people are talking 155 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:46,679 about it. I mean, even as you're introducing this concept, 156 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,879 and you know, my bias is that I now work 157 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,320 as a psychologist in a cancer center in addition to 158 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,279 doing you know, the public science communication that I continue 159 00:08:57,279 --> 00:09:00,679 to do, I can't help but think, Okay, what you 160 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,000 were describing, Like, gosh, I don't even phrase this question 161 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,399 with regards to other disease states. 162 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:11,159 Speaker 2: How now, how do we define cancer? 163 00:09:12,039 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: Right? 164 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? Like, yeah, Well, I mean that's the thing. It's 165 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,919 like a lot of the scientists when they talk about 166 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,240 mutant cells, they have to kind of preface it by saying, Okay, 167 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,320 these are like these. 168 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,639 Speaker 2: Are non. 169 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:27,799 Speaker 3: Non malignant, but like non cancer cells, but there are 170 00:09:27,879 --> 00:09:29,840 mutant cells in the body. And it's interesting because you know, 171 00:09:29,879 --> 00:09:36,679 you talk about cancer patients and you know psychology and 172 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,600 there you're talking about. You know, obviously with cancer there's 173 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,639 mutant cells that drive like that, like growth, and also 174 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,600 oftentimes the resistance to the chemotherapy and all the treatments 175 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,039 and blood vessels and yeah, yeah, there are a lot 176 00:09:53,039 --> 00:09:56,559 of things they do are like rewiring themselves essentially. But 177 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,440 then on top of that, it's interesting because then you're 178 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,000 also hving psychology in the brain and you know, there 179 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,879 is that sense of DNA change. We know that happens 180 00:10:06,919 --> 00:10:09,399 in our bodies that causes cancer, but like you're saying, 181 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,159 like a lot of people haven't yet really fully understood 182 00:10:12,919 --> 00:10:15,960 that even the healthy quote unquote healthy cells in our bodies, 183 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,600 in our brains, for example, we're picking up trillions of 184 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,279 mutations every day. Like by the time a person is 185 00:10:23,279 --> 00:10:25,799 one hundred years old, they've looked at centenarians and they've 186 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,200 taken cells from their blood and they've found that, you know, 187 00:10:29,279 --> 00:10:31,759 there's around three thousand mutations in a given cell that 188 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,159 aren't all in the other parts of the body. So 189 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:39,639 you know, we're just kind of every day our cells 190 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,919 through wear and tear break, their DNA breaks, and like 191 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,360 we have DNA repair enzymes, but they don't always do 192 00:10:45,399 --> 00:10:47,759 a perfect job. I like to say they're human too, right, 193 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:53,279 So if a mistake's made in the patching up, it 194 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,759 just carries to all the daughter cells. So see, I 195 00:10:56,799 --> 00:10:59,279 do think that this is something important for people to understand, 196 00:10:59,279 --> 00:11:02,559 not just on a metaphysical like you know, meaning of 197 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,679 the universe thing where you and I are having this 198 00:11:04,759 --> 00:11:07,919 conversation and our brain cells are mutating even as we're talking, 199 00:11:08,519 --> 00:11:11,759 but also to understand like what it does mean for 200 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,320 cancer treatment, what it does mean for the diagnosis of 201 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,480 diseases like heart disease, and our risk factors for these things. 202 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,440 So I'm kind of on a mission for people to 203 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,320 get the idea that our biology is just like much 204 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,879 more dynamic than they might have traditionally thought. 205 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I feel like there's so many different 206 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:33,519 ways to approach this, you know. I think, just as 207 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,480 questions pop into my head, I'm going to approach it 208 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:38,840 in the most nonlinear way possible and see if anyone 209 00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:41,480 can follow. But one of the questions that comes up 210 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,759 right at the top is maybe we can talk. 211 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,639 Speaker 2: A little bit about like what is a mutation? 212 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: What happens in our body when our genetic material does mutate, 213 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,919 and like, what are some of the checks and balances, 214 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,840 Because obviously you mentioned before like when there are times 215 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:01,519 where the error correction does doesn't work, or where the 216 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:05,519 like the load is too high, it may be passed on. 217 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,200 But there are plenty of times where you know, mutations 218 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:09,960 are happening all the time, and our cells are really 219 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,519 good at correcting that, right. 220 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, Well they're good at correcting certain like 221 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,759 so mutations kind of I mean, if a scientist might 222 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,639 consider a distinction between DNA damage and mutation, I don't 223 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,399 because I think that ultimately the lay people kind of 224 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,679 understanding them is the same thing. So it's a scientists mind. 225 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,320 A mutation is usually when like there are let's just 226 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,279 back up for a second. Our DNA in each of 227 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,639 our cells is comprised of these essentially letters, like scientists 228 00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:43,639 will call them nucleotides, but they're actg for all intents 229 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:49,360 and purposes here and there's three billion If you line 230 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,480 up all the DNA in a given cell of yours, 231 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,919 there be like three billion of the string of like 232 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,919 three billion letters if you lined it all up together. 233 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,559 And so imagine having to copy that every time you 234 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,080 make a new right, they copy the DNA into the 235 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,080 new cell. If I gave you a book with three 236 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,600 billion letters and I was like, Kara, like write this 237 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,279 all down with a pen, I mean, I trust in 238 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,879 you very deeply, but I also think you like me, 239 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,200 would probably accidentally, like if it was like attcg like 240 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:20,480 maybe you'd say att, I don't know GCCC, I don't know, 241 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:21,360 like you know, like there's. 242 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, like i'd switch some or some would get left out, 243 00:13:23,919 --> 00:13:26,240 or I might add a line somewhere on accident, and. 244 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 3: I shouldn't put it on you. Let's talk about it. 245 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,840 If I were to do this, I would make right 246 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,000 so so even in just the copy and like, oh, 247 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,840 we have so much cell turnover. So a mutation in 248 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:38,519 this sense would be like if we did make if you, 249 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:41,159 you are or me one of us made, or you 250 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,600 or I made like an error in the copying, that 251 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:47,639 would be considered a mutation. Because when the when the 252 00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:49,480 the next cell would like go on to like read 253 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,320 that instruction booklet right of DNA to make the proteins 254 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,360 that needs to process I don't know sugar or like 255 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,799 I don't like run some kind of oration in the cell. 256 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:04,000 It would it would kind of go to that gene 257 00:14:04,039 --> 00:14:05,639 and all of a sudden be like wait a second, 258 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,919 like this gene this isn't working because there's an error. 259 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,720 So that's when you get in trouble with mutations that 260 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,320 they can happen in parts of the DNA that like 261 00:14:14,919 --> 00:14:17,360 don't have an effect, right or that cell might die, 262 00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:21,480 in which case, no biggie, it might happen somewhere where 263 00:14:21,519 --> 00:14:22,080 it does matter. 264 00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: And so oftentimes when it does happen, because like it's 265 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,000 gonna happen, because that's just the nature of being alive, 266 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:34,559 there are like mechanisms in place to like find it 267 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,320 and either like you mentioned, kill that cell so that 268 00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:42,600 it doesn't wreak havoc or do some type of correction 269 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,799 so that there's not a big downstream effect. 270 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: But there are like error correction mechanisms in the cell. 271 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:52,000 But it kind of works better where there's like a 272 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:55,000 big mistake. The cell can spots when it's something where 273 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,960 like there's a single letter change, and again that's kind 274 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,639 of where we're talking about DNA breaks, which the cell 275 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:04,240 is like easier, it's easier for them to recognize. But 276 00:15:04,279 --> 00:15:07,559 if it's just like one letter's wrong, I mean again, 277 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,440 going back to the book. It's like, imagine if I 278 00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:12,399 like forgot, Like if there's like a paragraph and I 279 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,519 pressed return in the middle of the paragraph, your eyes 280 00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:17,840 could like spot that. Yeah, But if I changed like 281 00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:21,360 H to C in a word like hat to cat, like, 282 00:15:21,399 --> 00:15:25,279 you might be like less able to catch that mistake. 283 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,840 And yet a single letter changed like that can have 284 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,679 huge effects. Like there are many, many, many inherited disorders, 285 00:15:34,679 --> 00:15:39,440 for example, where somebody's life is just truncated because of 286 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,960 a single letter that's wrong, and it's uh. One of 287 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,200 the injustices I think of our biology is that, like 288 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:49,320 it's so fragile in some ways. 289 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so there's these examples like you mentioned, where 290 00:15:54,159 --> 00:16:02,679 there are mistakes, mutations, damage to DNA that get passed 291 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,240 down generation to generation, especially in situations where maybe the 292 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,919 symptoms don't come into later in life after somebody's already 293 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,480 had kids, or situations where you only have like a 294 00:16:12,519 --> 00:16:15,960 one in four chance of getting that they tend to 295 00:16:16,279 --> 00:16:18,639 continue throughout the population. 296 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:19,759 Speaker 2: But there are other. 297 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:23,799 Speaker 1: Examples, as you mentioned before, where your own DNA is 298 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:29,039 damaged throughout the life span due to mutagens, carcinogens, things 299 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,279 like that, and then disease states can occur within a 300 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,639 single life span as well. 301 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,519 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So part of my mission is to kind 302 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:40,559 of reframe even how we hear the words genetic disease. 303 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,559 Like I meant, you and me, if we had this 304 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,879 conversation ten years ago and we said genetic disease, we 305 00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:50,000 would automatically think inherited disease inherent Oh I still do. 306 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,679 Speaker 1: I definitely think heretically when you say, yeah, genetic disease. 307 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,639 Speaker 3: Okay, So you know, we think about things like cystic bibrosis, 308 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:06,400 where severely tragic disease where there's like you know, like 309 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:12,599 a mutation that will disturb how cells kind of their 310 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,880 channels work to move stuff around and what happens. Ultimately 311 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,559 it affects different organs, but the lungs are primarily affected, 312 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,960 where you are just more prone to these infections that 313 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,400 you and I would not need to worry about assuming 314 00:17:28,519 --> 00:17:33,440 you don't have CF. Like a little asterix there, which 315 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:35,960 is like there's these new drugs that have come that 316 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,559 have completely changed the disease so that ninety percent of 317 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:43,079 people with CF now have this great solution where essentially 318 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,920 they can correct the gene function. But let's think about 319 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,440 you know, that's an exception, A lot of these diseases 320 00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:56,839 don't yet have these easy to take medications. I'm getting 321 00:17:56,839 --> 00:17:59,079 a little sidetracked, but just to say that, like CF 322 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:04,480 sickle cell does these muscular dystrophee. People probably heard some 323 00:18:04,559 --> 00:18:10,559 of these name Tay Sachs, PKU, like all these different 324 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:15,359 inherited disorders where maybe like there's a metabolic error, they're 325 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,559 they're generally things that have been passed generations, right. They 326 00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:23,359 c F has traced back thousands of years to Assistic 327 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,119 fibrosis is traced back thousands of years to Europe. Some 328 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,119 of the some of the mutations right for. 329 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: Then you mentioned Tay Sachs. Like anybody who has done 330 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:36,000 a DNA test and knows that they are predominantly Ashkenazi 331 00:18:36,079 --> 00:18:39,799 inherited in their heritage and is partnering with somebody who's 332 00:18:39,839 --> 00:18:42,680 ashkan Nazi, they'll often do a lot of genetic counseling 333 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,799 before even deciding to have children, right, because there are 334 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,599 genetic diseases that are so prevalent within that population. 335 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 3: And these are just you know, like you say, like that, 336 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,519 you can look in the family tree and you can 337 00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:55,519 just find a bunch of people affected by these because 338 00:18:55,519 --> 00:19:01,839 they are passed down. Now, now, genetic disease is not 339 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,799 always inherited, like like you alluded to. In my book, 340 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:08,599 I talk about how it could happen at any point, 341 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,920 like anytime after for example, like the sperm and the 342 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,799 egg that may do came together, and there's a lot 343 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:20,640 of cell division that happens at the embryo development stage. 344 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,759 I'm kind of laughing as I'm saying this because I 345 00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:27,279 have a son, and when I was pregnant with him, 346 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,480 I kept, you know, all women who are pregnant are 347 00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,599 just get so thirsty. We're like drinking water all the time. 348 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,240 And it's partly because like there's a lot of cell 349 00:19:35,279 --> 00:19:39,319 division that's happening, and you it's like very energetically intensive, 350 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,480 it's very rapid. And I say this because, like imagine 351 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:47,799 I asked you to I gave as I care here, 352 00:19:47,839 --> 00:19:50,279 like take this book and copy it like letter for letter, 353 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,359 and you have let's say it's a two hundred page book, 354 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,559 and I can give you six months. Okay, that's like 355 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,119 basically the cell turnover of an adult. It's approximate. But 356 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,319 then if I said I'm going to give you two 357 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,359 days to do it, that's kind of what's going on. 358 00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:08,759 When it's early embryonic development, things just happen faster. The 359 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:12,599 copying happens faster, and so I think, you know, there's 360 00:20:12,599 --> 00:20:15,160 a lot of errors that can happen, and they do, 361 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:20,680 and so genetic disease can happen when embryonic cells acquire 362 00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:24,240 a mistake because the DNA was like there was a 363 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,440 mistake in the in the replication, or it can happen. 364 00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:30,480 You know here what you and I are sitting, we 365 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:32,240 might have a mutation that crops up in us that 366 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,960 is pathogenic, could cause cancer, or it could cause could 367 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,920 cause good things. I mean, my book also talks about 368 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:43,599 how we rely on mutation to survive, and like as 369 00:20:43,599 --> 00:20:47,279 we get older, you know, one or to two out 370 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:50,440 of every I always get this number. I want to 371 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,880 get this right. It's like one out of every five 372 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,880 or one out everyvery ten people seventy years or older 373 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,559 has a threshold level of these mutant blood cells that 374 00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:04,359 have kind of just happened to accumulate over their lifespan 375 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,200 that can double their risk of heart disease or double 376 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,359 their risk of str So it's common. It's common, Like 377 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,200 men don't know it, but like by the time men 378 00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:18,359 are in their seventies, like forty to fifty percent of 379 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,119 them have a substantial number of their blood cells missing 380 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,319 the Y chromosome or cells in their blood I should say, 381 00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:25,640 because red blood cells don't have a nucleus, but like 382 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,119 other cell like white blood cells, like they're just they 383 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,039 just tend to lose their Y chromosome as they get older. 384 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,759 Speaker 1: It's already so small, it's not a lot there to 385 00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:37,119 lose compared to the X. 386 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:37,839 Speaker 2: That's a sure. 387 00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:41,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not gonna cry too many tears about this, 388 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:44,720 but and it's interesting because people are like, so what well, 389 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,640 loss of why? And also, by the way, there is 390 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,079 loss of X two because women have two X chromesales 391 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,079 and they do tend to lose an X chromosome as 392 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:55,000 we get older, but it's less because we have like 393 00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:58,079 a backup. It's less fucky, less intensive. But we just 394 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,920 don't know as much because of course they haven't studied 395 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,240 women as much as they've studied men. 396 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: Of course, shocker. 397 00:22:05,599 --> 00:22:08,519 Speaker 3: But the loss of why, which has been better studied, 398 00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:11,720 is linked to like a whole host like risk of 399 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,720 Alzheimer's is up, risk of cancer is up. But the 400 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:17,599 thing is, it's not clear whether it's causal. It might 401 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:21,440 there might be something upstream that's causing both loss of 402 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,759 why and the risk of these other things. So, you 403 00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:27,480 know a lot of stuff happens as we age, you 404 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,799 know with our DNA. 405 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and our risk factors for most diseases increase 406 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,000 as we age. But probably there's well, I mean this 407 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:42,880 is just absolute conjecture, but probably the diseases that we 408 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,880 have best linked to DNA damage and mutagens have a 409 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,640 higher kind of increase in risk the older that we get. 410 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:56,039 Speaker 3: Well, the thing is is that they've actually started linking 411 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:00,839 these increased DNA change, that the increase in mutation to 412 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,240 the diseases of aging. Right, So it's not just that 413 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:07,480 you have a higher risk of mutant cells linked to 414 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,079 a higher risk of heart disease. They've now shown with 415 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,680 like mouse studies and cell studies in the lab, that 416 00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:17,519 those mutant cells are like able to induce more inflammation 417 00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:21,400 or respond with a more inflammatory response, probably because of 418 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,960 the mutation that they've acquired. It's often in certain genes 419 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,279 like tettoo, and so heart disease is a disease of inflammation, 420 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,079 like alphosclerosis. That's one like blood cells I SAR bloodvessels. 421 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,359 It's like an inflammatory disease. So the idea is like 422 00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:42,640 the DNA change has gone haywire, kind of boost the 423 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,319 inflammation in your body that then precipitates these diseases of aging. 424 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,240 It's kind of right, it's somewhat speculative. I know, you're 425 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,799 you're You've come from a data perspective, a skeptic perspective, 426 00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:58,880 So I'm careful here and saying none of this is definitive. 427 00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:04,359 But the evidence increasingly looks like it's it is. There 428 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,240 are connections here. 429 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it does kind of make sense, even though 430 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,920 it is a pretty intense, I guess paradigm shift for 431 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:18,559 a lot of people to move into. But even and 432 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:21,279 maybe it's because I don't have very specialized knowledge in 433 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:23,079 these areas. I could see people who are like the 434 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,200 most specialized being the most resistant sometimes to changing their 435 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:33,400 gestalt thinking. But you know, anybody who has been studying aging, 436 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:37,720 anybody who has been studying the relationship between these different 437 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:44,160 diseases of aging, has probably noticed mutagens or mutations damage 438 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,559 to DNA across the spectrum in the lab. But it's 439 00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:50,359 probably been kind of hard to put their finger on 440 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,880 the relationship, right is it that the older we get, 441 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,839 the more our DNA damages and that causes these diseases, 442 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,720 or do these diseases cause downstream damage to or DNA. 443 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:01,759 Speaker 2: It's probably hard to know. 444 00:25:01,839 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 3: I mean, there's definitely there's definitely that question. But because 445 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,960 they can do some of this stuff in like mouse 446 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,559 models now, and they can they can do functional essays, 447 00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:13,759 they can do tests that kind of show how to 448 00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:17,880 connect the dots. And also because there are people that 449 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,200 are at the extremes of this. So, like I write 450 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,400 in the book about Werner's syndrome, and so I mentioned 451 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,920 in a particular case where I spoke to the son 452 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:35,440 of Michael Prescott, and Michael Prescott he he's a fantastic individual. 453 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:37,400 I never got a chance to speak with them directly, 454 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,880 but his son told me how. Like, so, Michael Prescott 455 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,720 got his first heart attack in his thirties. I think 456 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,519 it was on his son's like fourth birthday, maybe I 457 00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:49,599 can't recall, on one of his thirties, Yeah, this thirties, 458 00:25:49,599 --> 00:25:52,039 and then he had like four other heart attacks in 459 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:54,519 the same year, and then like all these health things 460 00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:58,039 started start getting cataracts, like his hair went gray. His 461 00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:00,160 son has said that by the time he was in 462 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,960 his early forties, taking him to like baseball games, everybody 463 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,319 assumed that Michael was his son's grandfather. He looked like 464 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,160 in his sixties and his and this doctor think, we're 465 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,480 at Vanderbilt, like not like a great and it was 466 00:26:13,519 --> 00:26:17,319 a great institution, not something not like a small small 467 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:20,680 town like rural. Yeah, rural. You know, nothing against any 468 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,640 small town hospital. But they couldn't figure it out. And 469 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,400 so he would sit in this recliner in like the 470 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,599 evenings in the living room, just like reading research papers. 471 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,359 I'm sure it'd be different now, like you'd probably ask 472 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,720 chat GPT and have an answer in two minutes. But 473 00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:38,000 he had to look through the research literature at the time. 474 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,279 And he ultimately went to his doctors and he said, 475 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:43,519 I think I have this thing, and they tested him 476 00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:46,359 and they're like, you're so right, like this explains everything. 477 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,160 And what he had was Werner syndrome, where essentially you 478 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,880 age super rapidly. Unfortunately, he died in his mid fifties, 479 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:01,720 which is exactly what happens in most cases, and what 480 00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:03,720 happens in Warner syndrome is you have just like a 481 00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:08,480 rapid accumulation of mutation. So so there's all this evidence 482 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,319 piling up that mutation and and aging as length. I 483 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,599 also talk in the book about like zoo animals that 484 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,640 have been like examined and like they looked at giraffes, 485 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,519 everything from giraffes to zebras, and then also like mouse 486 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,119 and cat and dog, you like human tissue, and they 487 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,720 found that, like when somebody, when animals live to their 488 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,240 life like maximum life span, it seems that like no 489 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:35,759 matter how shorter long they live, they end up with 490 00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:38,680 like three thousand mutations in their in their gut cells. 491 00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:43,599 So so the idea is that like the animals like 492 00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:47,359 the mouse that lives shorter just mutate faster, and the 493 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:54,079 ones that mutate slower live longer. So the maths math, 494 00:27:54,279 --> 00:27:56,720 I think it's as the young people are the math 495 00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:01,119 Did I use that right? I think I think so. 496 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,319 Speaker 2: I don't don't ask me. I'm not a young person. 497 00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:07,519 It sounds good to me, but it does. 498 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: Kind of beg an interesting question that I've always wondered. 499 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,920 And I don't know if there is an answer to 500 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,559 this question. But you know, let's say we're talking about 501 00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:17,079 something as I don't want to say straightforward it as cancer. 502 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,480 Cancer is in no way straightforward. But where the relationship 503 00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:27,680 between mutation and DNA damage and you know, cancer diagnostics 504 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:28,960 and symptomatology is. 505 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: I guess fleshed out pretty well. 506 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:40,559 Speaker 1: I've always wondered is it a threshold response? Like is 507 00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:42,680 it that because we know that there are people who 508 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:46,519 have mutations to their DNA before they're ever born, like 509 00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:50,880 they have disrupted oncogenes or tumor suppressor genes that will 510 00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:53,400 cause it to be easier for them to get cancers. 511 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,480 Why there's such a thing as childhood cancer. And then 512 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,200 we know that there are people who are exposed to 513 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,440 intense you know, mutagens like astronauts or people who smoke 514 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,880 cigarettes their entire life, or you know, people who are 515 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,160 exposed to environmental toxins who are just like experiencing large 516 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,759 scale damage to their DNA. But of course we've all 517 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:14,599 heard the story of the woman who smoked her entire 518 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,960 life and never got cancer, and we've all heard the 519 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,559 stories of people who were just like so unlucky. Is 520 00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:24,279 it about the load? Is it about all of these 521 00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:26,839 I mean, like algorithm for. 522 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,599 Speaker 3: The Rolling Stones? Why is my why is my mind blinking? 523 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,160 I read his autobiography and it was amazing. This is 524 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,119 embarrassing too. 525 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,039 Speaker 1: Oh I have to google that, so don't worry about that. 526 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,640 Oh my Jagger, duh Jagger Keith Richards, Jagger, Keith Richards 527 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,519 amazing autobiography. 528 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 3: Like, wow, what a book. Uh, people don't want to 529 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,200 read my book, they should read that book too. So 530 00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:58,559 I mean, how is he Like he's like the epitome 531 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,519 right of like living a hard life, and he seems 532 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:04,559 to be doing great right right, and so you know, 533 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,720 drugs and rock and roll did pretty fine by him. 534 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:11,599 So yeah, I mean it's funny because I'm also working 535 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:13,720 on a piece right now for The Atlantic about how 536 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,839 people with like mutations that should be fatal are still alive. 537 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,920 Like there is some question that hangs about this. It's 538 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,680 interesting they mentioned astronauts, by the way, because in my 539 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,200 book I talk about how astronauts actually do have more 540 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:29,200 mutant blood cells than the average person or the average 541 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,160 person of their age. 542 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,279 Speaker 1: So yeah, they're like not shielded up there, right, They're 543 00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:35,240 they're getting hit. I mean, even flying in a plane 544 00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:39,680 is not great, and they're like extra flying elon musk. 545 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,119 Speaker 3: Maybe that would be a wait again, I'm thinking about 546 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:44,799 living on board. 547 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: No, let's just get him to go to make that 548 00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:50,519 can be the guy. I'll be fine. 549 00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:51,599 Speaker 3: Totally that too. 550 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,759 Speaker 2: But yeah, I have always wondered, is it is there 551 00:30:54,759 --> 00:30:57,039 a threshold? Is there an unwritten threshold? 552 00:30:57,079 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: And maybe it's different for different people where you know, 553 00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:04,319 they cross into the rubicon and all of a sudden, Okay, 554 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:07,000 now it's Alzheimer's, now it's cancer, and now it's these 555 00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:08,480 other things, but up until then. 556 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 3: It's not. It's a really it's a really profound question. 557 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,640 It's like a very deep question. So I think that 558 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,359 it's like pause and appreciate how how important it is. 559 00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:24,039 Because even people, for example that you know, I said, 560 00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:25,920 one to two out of every ten people in their 561 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,000 seventies have these specific kind of like mute cells in 562 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:31,920 their blood that are linked to heart disease and linked 563 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:35,440 to cancer. But not everybody is getting heart disease and 564 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,720 cancer that has these mute blood cells. I think maybe 565 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,839 scientists might suggest that, like there is a certain amount 566 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,279 of vigilance in like fromadian system about like clearing out 567 00:31:46,359 --> 00:31:49,000 cells that seem to be bad actors. I don't know 568 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,200 if that's the reason why. I mean, some of it 569 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,839 just could be bad luck. Good luck luck is kind 570 00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:58,200 of a tricky term in biology, right, because there's always 571 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,519 something determining it, Like there's mechanism, but it just might 572 00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:06,519 be so small scale that we'll never really find out. 573 00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:10,720 But you know, like on the larger scale of things. 574 00:32:10,759 --> 00:32:13,680 I know, I personally, after having written this book, have 575 00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:18,000 changed some behaviors just because it's it's kind of like 576 00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:21,440 at the end of the day, you can you might 577 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,839 not be able to determine your health, but you can 578 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,319 stack the odds more in your favor. So sleep is 579 00:32:28,599 --> 00:32:32,640 extremely It's like it seems to be very well established 580 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,480 to like lower the prevalence or risk of mutant cells 581 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,599 in your blood mutes. And of course I keep talking 582 00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:42,119 about the blood because it's easy to sample, like it's 583 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:42,799 kind of hard. 584 00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: Right, because that's what you're going to see in research studies. 585 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:49,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah, I mean I don't want someone coming 586 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,519 to take my brain cell, like, you know, I got 587 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:53,960 my right level check. They could took my arm and 588 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,039 took my blood, like I don't really want them to 589 00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:59,279 take my brain cells. Who knows how many I have left, 590 00:32:59,319 --> 00:32:59,519 you know. 591 00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:02,319 Speaker 1: So oh yeah, I was just talking to my neurologist 592 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,440 about that the other day, you know, like I take 593 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:06,599 prozac and it works really well for me. But I 594 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,000 also have this like weird neurological sleep disorder called IH, 595 00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:12,319 and I actually have these crazy meds so that I 596 00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:14,920 like am awake enough during the day. It's like similar 597 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,759 to type two narcolepsy. And I was talking about how 598 00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:20,079 once these or rex and drug this is so. 599 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,599 Speaker 2: Yeah about her here north arap But yeah, okay, so 600 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:25,119 anybody listening this may apply. If not, don't worry. Just 601 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:26,640 I'll be past this in a second. 602 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,319 Speaker 1: But once these new ORX and drugs are on the market, 603 00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:32,319 I'll be so curious to see how well I respond 604 00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:37,880 to them, because ultimately it's anybody's guess. Why you know 605 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,119 I have IH? Is it that I don't make enough 606 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,519 or rex and is there something wrong with my gabba? 607 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,039 The only way to know is for somebody to do 608 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:48,000 like a spinal tap, And I'm like, not worth it. 609 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,359 Speaker 3: I mean, I just nuture where you'd be, you'd be 610 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,599 able to get better diagnostics. Like I don't know exactly how, 611 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,960 but like I do think that as we get better 612 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,720 on like eavesdropping on cells, even with cancer, right, there's 613 00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:06,160 like yeah, circulating tumor DNA that the people can just 614 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,839 get like pick up all. 615 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: My patients are doing that now. It's amazing how many 616 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,519 even since I started in this field to now how 617 00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:16,960 many more patients are using these They're like these startup 618 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000 companies where they can detect the tiniest amounts of DNA 619 00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:22,599 and their blood and see if their tumor markers are 620 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,000 going up or down long before they see anything on scans. 621 00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 3: And so yeah, for people that are listening that might 622 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,960 not know what's circulating, tumor DNA like to tumor cell 623 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:33,599 DNA is about it's like it's it's like not necessarily 624 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,679 not going for a biopsy into the tumor. You're just 625 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,119 picking up what they're spewing out into the blood when 626 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,320 they die, you know. So on cells die, they they 627 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,119 release their DNA and you can just eavesdrop. It's like 628 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:48,639 almost like looking gosh, I sound like I don't do this, 629 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:50,360 but like if you want to find out what's going 630 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,000 on at your neighbor's house, you can lose look through 631 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,559 their trash. They're just like spewing it out there, right. 632 00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:56,559 Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it. 633 00:34:57,039 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: Or like the environmental DNA research where people are like collecting, 634 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,639 you know, from an elephant footprint to see what ecologically 635 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,199 is living in there or like you. 636 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 3: Know, than like looking through your neighbor's trash. But yes, so, 637 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,559 but going back to what we were talking about, trying 638 00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:18,400 to trace this back to we're talking about the brain. 639 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,280 Oh yeah, I do think that, Like, and the thing 640 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,360 about the brain is like oftentimes the things you're talking about, 641 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,840 like sleep regulation, these are like very small clusters of 642 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,679 neurons having this kind of like weight like stuff. Like 643 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,559 I'm so fascinated always with the there's a theory about 644 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:39,480 our weight is kind of we have a set point 645 00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:41,760 in our brains that like tells our body like how 646 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,000 much to weigh. And we're talking about like clusters of cells, 647 00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:50,039 like we're not talking about like giant golf ball sizes 648 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:54,960 of tissue. So it's hard. The reason I'm saying that 649 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,840 it's like it's much harder to sample. I don't want 650 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,920 someone going and biop seeing these cells because they can 651 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,840 that's too small a region. But maybe we could figure 652 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,280 out a way to eavesdrop on what mutations are happening there, 653 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,719 or do some imaging that's like informed by some mouse 654 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,840 studies that show when you have mutations there's a certain 655 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,840 structural distinction, like who knows. 656 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: And precision medicine is like such an obvious outcome of 657 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,920 this type of sampling which we're seeing, you know, kind 658 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,440 of starting in research settings definitely, Like in the cancer 659 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,199 world we mentioned there are these these uh, I guess 660 00:36:33,199 --> 00:36:37,480 surveillance approaches that allow for the tiniest amount of genetic 661 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:40,559 material to be found in the blood. But think about 662 00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:43,519 like psychiatry for example, like why does prozac work on 663 00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:46,239 me when like cetallogram makes me feel like shit? 664 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 2: Right, we might be able to figure that out later. 665 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,159 Speaker 3: Like if I take Allegra, I'm like, probably I should 666 00:36:52,159 --> 00:36:55,079 be in Allegra sales. If anyone's sort of Allegra listening, 667 00:36:55,159 --> 00:36:58,119 I will be like, you're sales promoter or whatever. But 668 00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:00,599 if I take a Zertec or you know, like I'm 669 00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:04,280 just done. I can't function for weeks. And there's certain 670 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:10,079 people that are like more sensitive to Zertech than and 671 00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:12,400 so yes, I do hope that one day we'll be 672 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,719 able to have more of like the pharmacogenetic insight. But 673 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,320 I guess that strays a little far from my main 674 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,920 message here, which is like, even if I'm not sensitive 675 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,079 to something today, my immune system might change because I 676 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:29,000 mutation and I might be sensitive heat tomorrow. So part 677 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,920 of the thing I want to emphasize is like we 678 00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,320 have to give ourselves grace. Like a lot of the 679 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,079 time we're trying to figure out like who we are, 680 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,480 like what our bodies are doing, and then all of 681 00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:40,719 a sudden, I don't know, you find out you're allergic 682 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,599 to something, but you could eat it before, Like what's 683 00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:47,880 going on? Well, our bodies change, like cells turnover, DNA changes, 684 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,519 And my message is like we got to kind of 685 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:53,360 get our arms around that whole concept. 686 00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: And so you know, this maps really well, I think 687 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,800 in a lot of ways to the research that we're 688 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,639 constantly talking about on another podcast I work on, the 689 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:07,639 Skeptics Guide the Universe, Will Well, you know, we covered 690 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:10,400 different science stories every single week, and very often we'll 691 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,480 be saying, oh, you know, based on the you know 692 00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:16,960 whatever uk Biobank data, new researchers have you know, gotten 693 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,599 into this big database and they've learned that this is 694 00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:21,719 how many steps you want to walk a day, or 695 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,880 they've learned that like this is how many vegetables you know, 696 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,480 on average people would eat, and then it has this 697 00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:30,519 downstream effect on what we always are calling all cause mortality, right, 698 00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:34,039 because it's like the broadest way to measure people who 699 00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:38,800 did this died, you know, later than people who did that. Yeah, 700 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,800 and so what are those things that helped me not 701 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,280 die as soon? And obviously when you drill into research 702 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,039 like that, there are a million nuances and a thousand variables. 703 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,360 But it does make me wonder how much underlies you know, 704 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,760 how much of this really is what's going on with 705 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,159 our DNA, with all of these behavioral changes that have 706 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,400 all cause mortality effects. 707 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, And by the way, I was just gonna I 708 00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:04,159 was just gonna say, although I love me a good 709 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,480 uk Biobank study that out as the example, all roads 710 00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:11,400 lead back to this uk Biobank, which of course is 711 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,239 like right, okay, like decided to get really serious about 712 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,039 getting like DNA sequences from a bunch of people in 713 00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:20,639 they're just like, you've got a huge repository analysis. But yeah, 714 00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:23,639 your question about like how much of variants in our 715 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,400 fate is due to d our DNA and also the 716 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,039 DNA mutation that happens in us, And I think the 717 00:39:32,119 --> 00:39:34,760 answer is like a lot more than we have appreciated 718 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,519 in the past. And and Yeah, Like when I keep 719 00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:42,519 going back to that thing I mentioned about how like 720 00:39:42,639 --> 00:39:45,360 a single blood cell from a centenarian has three thousand 721 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,480 mutations that aren't found in other parts of the body. Like, 722 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,519 I just feel like we're going to be talking a 723 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:58,159 lot more about how our behaviors do affect our mutational 724 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,079 rates and like in different ways. So one thing I 725 00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,280 found out as I was wrapping up the book that 726 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,880 I was able to include is that, you know, so 727 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,360 first of all, let me just back up and say, 728 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,800 we've gone from not understanding how much a person mutates 729 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,239 in the course of LIW life, Like fifteen years ago, 730 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,400 twenty years ago, we didn't even talk about this, right, 731 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,159 We've gone from like basically not a lot of data, 732 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,000 zero data, to like too much data, like data that 733 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:24,440 computers will have to crunch to make sense of. Because 734 00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:27,719 what happened is in two thousand and nine, scientists developed 735 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,000 ways to get the genetic sequence from individual cells. So 736 00:40:32,159 --> 00:40:34,280 no longer were they're kind of looking at the bulk 737 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,239 DNA of the body and making like a general assumption 738 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,920 about the DNA of a person. All of a sudden, 739 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,559 you can do like a census and be like, well, 740 00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:44,079 these cells have this mutation in this person, but these 741 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:47,159 cells don't have this mutation in this person. Hmm, like 742 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:50,840 something something happened at some point like that is all 743 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,800 in the last decade really that labs have been able 744 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,800 to adopt the technology. And so going back for a second, 745 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,360 like just to say, as I was wrapping up the book, 746 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,440 they had crunched all of this like almost noisy data, 747 00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:11,239 Like it's almost noisy, it's so much and found that 748 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,679 there's actually a different DNA mutation signature in people who 749 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,159 smoke tobacco versus chew Like the people that chewed tobacco 750 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,199 have a different mutational pattern than those who smoke it. 751 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:28,679 So like we are going to get more granular insights 752 00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:33,400 into how our behaviors affect our DNA like and that 753 00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:36,280 is so profound to me, like to us just to 754 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,320 know that, like what we choose to do. So it's 755 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,079 kind of like adding a layer like you're talking about, 756 00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:42,159 like you know, you have a bunch of people, you 757 00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:45,360 look at their DNA, You've all caused mortality. Now I 758 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,599 think we're going to have this extra layer that's like Okay, 759 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,840 they have that baseline genome, but then they're doing these 760 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,119 behaviors that these are the mutations are finding and that 761 00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:56,719 that's linked to their mortality. 762 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like, here's the thing that I'm going to 763 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,400 start getting a little like philosophical psychological about this, because 764 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,599 again I'm seeing this through my lens as a health 765 00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:09,760 psychologist in a large metropolitan cancer center. One of the 766 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,119 biggest struggles that I have with my patients is the 767 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,159 why me? What could I have done to prevent this? 768 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,960 Is it because I didn't eat more vegetables? Is it 769 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,039 because I wasn't you know, I didn't take that class 770 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:26,119 that you know would have kept me more active? And 771 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,920 so much of the work that we are doing often 772 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:36,960 is grappling with the randomness of cancer, the fact that 773 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,199 cancer is not terribly selective, and that some people like 774 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,760 you mentioned before it's a loaded term, but are just 775 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,519 kind of like genetically unlucky. And I'm always worried about. 776 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:51,800 While on the one hand, learning more about how our 777 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:57,079 behaviors can affect these our DNA downstream I think will 778 00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:02,079 be very empowering for making choices, I sometimes worry that 779 00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:04,760 it maps back to the sort of power of positive 780 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,440 thinking movement, the secret all of this, like, well, you 781 00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:10,760 manifested this because of some of the choices you made. 782 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,199 Speaker 3: I'm already worried, like I'm or as I was writing 783 00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:17,199 about this DNA and cigarettes and tobacco and things like that. 784 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,239 M M, I was already worried about like the first 785 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,000 paper linking microclastics to mutations, which is it's gonna come right, 786 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,599 like all the thousands of tiktoks that will launch, Like 787 00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:32,039 I do. I do think that like what you're saying 788 00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:37,719 is true, that there's a lot of danger here in it. 789 00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:41,039 This is walking a super fine line. There's a danger 790 00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:45,639 that we're going to try to be overly prescriptive in 791 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,800 like behavioral change based on like very early studies linking 792 00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:52,719 certain behaviors to certain mutational patterns. 793 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: And judgmental and also prey on people with a lot 794 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:56,400 of pseudoscience. 795 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:02,039 Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of It's a treacherous where you 796 00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:04,119 have a lot of people looking to say something about 797 00:44:04,199 --> 00:44:08,000 biology when it's got to be careful at the same time. 798 00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:10,000 Like it's funny because I actually wrote my book in 799 00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:16,039 part to address this y N question, because I did 800 00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:19,400 want to introduce the idea of randomness to people and 801 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,960 and for people to make peace with mutation, Like we 802 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,719 should talk about how it's good for you, because I 803 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,800 think that's really important. But I also say that, you know, 804 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,519 the in the two decades I've been reporting on genetics, 805 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:33,320 a lot of it has been on rare disease families 806 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,119 affected by like these genetic mutations that are rare, and 807 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,159 I feel like there's an other ring of people that 808 00:44:42,559 --> 00:44:46,039 have really obvious mutations, and I want to make a shirt. 809 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,199 I should make a shirt this summers like I am 810 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,480 a mutant because we're all mutants, and I think that 811 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,199 part of what I'm trying to do is just get 812 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,719 people to accept that, like living to live is to mutate. 813 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,119 To mutate us to live. And so what I want 814 00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:04,920 to say about immunity is like you have to If 815 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,800 your immune cells don't mutate, you can't make antibodies to 816 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,719 fight the pathogens you encounter in your life. The engine 817 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,280 of our immune system is mutation. So I don't know 818 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:17,719 if you want to talk about that, but that's a 819 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,119 super important flip side of all the negative things we've 820 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:21,840 been talking about. 821 00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that one hundred percent that segue is. 822 00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:32,119 Speaker 1: Necessary, especially right now because the way I plan to 823 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,800 get into it, which God, it just makes me realize 824 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,599 how old I am, and how long it's been since 825 00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:39,000 I've been well, I actually did recently finish my PhD. 826 00:45:39,079 --> 00:45:40,920 But how long it's been since I took a biology 827 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,800 class because that was in psychology. But I was going 828 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,159 to bring up how like you know sickle cell, Like 829 00:45:46,159 --> 00:45:49,239 that's always the example, right, Like sickle cell is like 830 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,119 this horrific disease and it can cause so much pain 831 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,840 and so much disability for so many people, but it 832 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,880 happens kind of as an outcome of good mutations that 833 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,360 a lot of people are caring that help prevent them 834 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:08,519 from pretty debilitating malaria infections. Right, So there's like often 835 00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:10,199 we do see like two sides of the same coin, 836 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,880 even within similar genetic mutations. But what I'm hearing from 837 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,880 you is that, like we got to stop thinking about 838 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,320 mutation as like putting a moral judgment on it anyway 839 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:22,960 or as somehow. 840 00:46:24,079 --> 00:46:26,159 Speaker 3: I mean, it's interesting that earlier question we're like, oh, 841 00:46:26,199 --> 00:46:28,719 not to get philosophical. I'm like, this is all philosophical. 842 00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:33,719 It's all like it's all philosophy, Like it's not. It's 843 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,559 not like it's just like hard science. Like I really 844 00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:40,199 try to approach this topic through stories like history, stories, 845 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:46,599 patient narratives and like, uh and really like the deeper 846 00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:51,079 philosophy at what all this means? So everybody here remembers 847 00:46:51,119 --> 00:46:52,800 the COVID pandemic, right. 848 00:46:53,599 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 2: We all know, so when was that totally black? 849 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:04,159 Speaker 3: That so so when our bodies had never seen COVID before, 850 00:47:04,159 --> 00:47:06,320 Nobody on Earth, no human being on Earth had like 851 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,480 encountered COVID before. And yet you know, despite the tremendous 852 00:47:10,519 --> 00:47:14,400 humans human loss, many of us got it and our 853 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,960 bodies could fight it off. How could they fight a 854 00:47:17,079 --> 00:47:20,599 disease they had never seen before? How could my immune system? 855 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,519 And you're I'm assuming you got COVID your immune three times? Yep? 856 00:47:24,599 --> 00:47:31,880 Oh man, I'm on two, so they're not so uh 857 00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:34,199 how could our bodies fight it? And the answer is 858 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,920 our immune cells have something a weird function where their 859 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,360 DNA can shift around and change a lot. And what 860 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,400 they do is they they kind of pull a lever. 861 00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:49,599 You never like the vaguest style like slot what they 862 00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:51,440 call slot machines that you know, you pull a lever 863 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,639 and the things spin around and then like you get 864 00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:56,760 different combinations. That's going on inside our immune cells all 865 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,920 the time with our DNA. Just imagine the cell like 866 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,679 pulling a lever, not like an actual lever, but just 867 00:48:02,639 --> 00:48:05,239 there's functions that switch around the DNA, and what happens 868 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,800 is you get a different instruction from that sequence, and 869 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,000 it makes an antibody with a different shape. And so 870 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,920 it's just constantly making different mutations hoping one will make 871 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,960 an antibody that's necessary. It's just playing the odds if 872 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:26,480 you will, and so much so, so much so that okay, well, 873 00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:29,280 anytime you get sick, it's like doing this process, right, 874 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,679 But when you get a vaccine, it also does it. 875 00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:35,559 So these researchers in New York I write about looked 876 00:48:35,559 --> 00:48:38,760 at people who had gotten like a booster shot, which 877 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,960 again further causes more mutation, hence like more benefit. Like 878 00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:47,559 mutation is good in this instance. There are people that 879 00:48:47,679 --> 00:48:49,639 can't mutate their immune cells, and they have to live 880 00:48:49,639 --> 00:48:53,440 in like sterile bubbles or get transplants so that they 881 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,880 can have like a reset of their immune system from 882 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,840 somebody else that then gives them the ability to mutate. 883 00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:02,920 And so even people that got like these booster shots 884 00:49:03,119 --> 00:49:07,480 had cell immune cells that could make antibites about against 885 00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:11,159 versions of COVID that had not yet even existed. Like 886 00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:13,079 those variants that had not yet come along, which was 887 00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:16,679 miraculous if you ask me, So that's a good side 888 00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:18,719 of mutation. I don't know if I explained it well. 889 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:25,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean it's it's it's a weird moralization that 890 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,320 we do from a scientific perspective, I think, because we 891 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,199 are the center of our own universe, and when we 892 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,440 think about biological processes, very often we think of them 893 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,920 from a sort of anthropocentric perspective, So we're like, does 894 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,280 it make me sick? Does it let me feel good 895 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:41,920 in my body? 896 00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:44,639 Speaker 3: The sickness is easier to see though, Also, like I 897 00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:47,199 think some of the meaning we give the term is 898 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,280 because like there's mutations that every time we got a drink, 899 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,599 like of alcohol, Like our livers are getting insulted. The 900 00:49:54,639 --> 00:49:56,760 scientists say, a doctor say insulted. I mean, it's a 901 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,920 nice way of putting it maybe, And they've found evan 902 00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:03,599 that like even in healthy people, when livers get damaged 903 00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:06,400 when they're they're around, like if you have too many calories, 904 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,320 if you end up like going towards fatty liver disease, 905 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,679 you're the immune cell, sorry, not the emune cells, the 906 00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:16,320 liver cells that regenerate in your liver oftentimes pick up 907 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,079 mutations that help them process extra calories better, like like 908 00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:25,880 sequester the extra ones they don't need better. So so 909 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,079 there's and like we would never know that's going on 910 00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:30,320 until this age of DNA sequencing. So some of this 911 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,960 stuff's been like the good side of mutation has been hidden. 912 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,719 We just take it for granted. And and I do 913 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,760 think that, uh, maybe if part of it's also that 914 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,199 we're not super comfortable with change. We're like, this is 915 00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,480 my body, Like I don't need the DNA to change, 916 00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:49,679 but sometimes we it helps us well. 917 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,639 Speaker 1: And I think it's also why there's this ever difficult struggle. 918 00:50:53,679 --> 00:50:55,679 And I wish somebody would tell this to all of 919 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,719 the billionaire investors out there, But there's this sort of 920 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,760 push pull and this difficult struggle between I don't want 921 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,039 to say between because it makes it sound like it's diametric, 922 00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:07,559 and it's not. It's more complicated than that, but between 923 00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:10,280 sort of like aging research and anti aging research and 924 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:14,400 cancer research, like the very things that we could do 925 00:51:14,519 --> 00:51:18,360 sometimes to our bodies to make us live longer could 926 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,320 be very dangerous because they can like induce cancer in 927 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,000 us and vice versa, and I think we're always yeah, 928 00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:26,920 like there's always this like, oh, if we just like 929 00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:29,559 drink you know, this potion, or we just you know, 930 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,199 change ourselves so that they don't do this thing anymore, 931 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,559 I'll just live forever. And I'm like, yeah, and you'll 932 00:51:34,599 --> 00:51:37,840 just be loaded with more mutations and you'll have way 933 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,800 more diseases. You'll be fighting off the whole. 934 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I don't have time. Like I think if 935 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,719 people really want to know the full story, they should, 936 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,440 they should read the book. But one of the things 937 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:51,239 I'll mention is that like even antioxidants, it's like I 938 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:52,840 was like, oh, they must be great, but as I 939 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,159 looked into it, it's like more like a little bit 940 00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:58,119 can be good, but like too much is actually linked 941 00:51:58,159 --> 00:52:03,480 to worse outcomes. So so it's like what your grandmother's 942 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:09,039 all said about like moderation so true, so necessary, and like, yeah, 943 00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:12,760 it's interesting because not just not just cancer that like 944 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,079 anti aging stuff doesn't just necessarily increase risk of cancer. 945 00:52:16,199 --> 00:52:18,360 It's also like if you think about it, because there 946 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,519 are companies now starting up that I write about that 947 00:52:21,559 --> 00:52:27,599 are trying to like slow mutation from happening in the body, 948 00:52:27,639 --> 00:52:29,920 as as on the premise that like mutation is what 949 00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:32,840 causes frailty and aging and all these things. But of course, 950 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,880 as we just talked about, like if you can't mutate, 951 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,880 you're not going to make new, better antibodies. So is 952 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,960 the compromise of slowing mutation going to be a weakened 953 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,440 immune system? Yeah, gb D I. 954 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:49,639 Speaker 2: I'm not such an important point. 955 00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:52,079 Speaker 1: We talk about this a lot on the SDU kind 956 00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:56,280 of going back to the overarching point that you know, 957 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,440 you see all of this pseudoscientific bullshit online about like 958 00:52:59,559 --> 00:53:01,000 we want to boost your immune system. 959 00:53:01,079 --> 00:53:03,159 Speaker 2: Well that's good to a point until. 960 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,159 Speaker 1: It becomes until you get an autoimmune disease, right, and 961 00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:10,400 like you want to exactly you want to take these 962 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,960 antioxidants or you know, like reduce oxidative stret Well that's 963 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,480 good to a point until and everything is like that, 964 00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:18,920 like everything is toxic and large enough or small enough, 965 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,960 you know, depending quantities are. 966 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,159 Speaker 3: Lacked there, Like you know, going back to the immune 967 00:53:24,199 --> 00:53:26,000 system again, not that I'm hung up on it, but 968 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:30,079 I did write a lot about COVID. You know, during 969 00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:34,639 the pandemic, a lot of discussion on Twitter was about 970 00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:38,199 how to boost your immune system, and there was a 971 00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:41,880 lot of people saying like, oh, the vaccines like like 972 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,840 five G gonna like change your DNA, and of course, 973 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:51,079 like the mRNA vaccines do not directly change your DNA, 974 00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,039 like nothing is getting inserted into your DNA, Like let's 975 00:53:54,079 --> 00:54:01,079 just be absolutely clear about that. But you do need 976 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,239 like it is going to mutate. It's going to cause 977 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,000 mutational processes in your DNA to make better antibody. So 978 00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:10,400 instead of saying like I would say, a strong immune 979 00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:14,440 system is a diversified one, and that diversification is really 980 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:19,280 helped by vaccines. Like if you're not taking vaccines, you're 981 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,880 not diversifying your immune system. So it's not going to 982 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,960 be as ready to like it doesn't have that antibody 983 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,719 it needs in place at the get go. You're going 984 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,000 to be trying to make it on the fly and 985 00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:33,519 like good luck, because you might not take it in time. 986 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,760 Speaker 1: It's why I always get my flu shot every year, 987 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,119 even if it turns out that it's not that effective 988 00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:41,599 that year. My assumption is if I'm doing it every 989 00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:45,719 single year, I am developing immunity to all these different 990 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,559 strains of flu. 991 00:54:48,039 --> 00:54:51,400 Speaker 3: I need to be very clear that I was vaccine 992 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,360 hesitant and I'm a reporter for twenty years on. You know, 993 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,119 I did not. I did not get the flu vaccine, 994 00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:01,159 despite the fact of living with somebody he would always 995 00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:02,679 get the flu vaccine and I'd be like, I don't 996 00:55:02,679 --> 00:55:03,559 need the flu vaccine. 997 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,760 Speaker 1: So you were secondarily protected by him. 998 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 3: Maybe so maybe so so uh But I got it 999 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,199 one year not that long ago, less than a decade ago. 1000 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,159 And about a month later, I had like a really 1001 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:25,039 mysterious lethargy, went to two doctors, like couldn't figure it out. 1002 00:55:25,159 --> 00:55:28,519 They tested me for CMV, which is like cytomegalovirus, because 1003 00:55:28,519 --> 00:55:33,559 I had already had mono Like uh uh. Turns out 1004 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,960 I had subacute hyroiditis. And the only reason they found 1005 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,480 out was I walked. I was like really so like 1006 00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:41,639 I was very tired to the point where I was 1007 00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:44,679 I was drinking maple syrup from like like a glass, 1008 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,280 like and eating double hamburgers and going to spin class 1009 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,840 like six times a week. It was like things were 1010 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,960 weird and I was still very tired and yet like 1011 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,599 like jacked up in terms of like I was talking fast. 1012 00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,000 So so finally I went to this like eronos and 1013 00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:05,320 throat doctor because I had like a my neck was weird, 1014 00:56:06,039 --> 00:56:08,320 and it was the kind of appointment you don't want 1015 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,519 to have where the doctor walks into the room, looks 1016 00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:15,519 at you and then it's like yeah, I'll go get 1017 00:56:15,519 --> 00:56:17,280 somebody else. And you're like wait, wait, don't you want 1018 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,599 to diagnose me? And he's like no, no, no, I 1019 00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:21,920 just diagnosed you. I just looked at you. So I 1020 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,760 had a lump on my thyroid and it was because 1021 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,199 it was like die, it was like bursting. Now why 1022 00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,360 do I bring this story up? Because sebakit thyroiditis is 1023 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:35,039 often a post viral effect. Ah, so this is a 1024 00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:37,559 very so like you know, you lose your thyroid tissue. 1025 00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:40,719 It's like not great. But if I had gotten the vaccine, 1026 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,800 I probably wouldn't have had as severe a flu and 1027 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,679 I probably wouldn't have had But then, like who knows, 1028 00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,519 going back to like the whole thing we're talking about, 1029 00:56:48,519 --> 00:56:51,239 like why me? You know, maybe I would still have 1030 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,920 had the mutation that I would have precipitated that whole thing, 1031 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:55,119 So who knows. 1032 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,119 Speaker 1: We do what we can with the tools that we 1033 00:56:57,199 --> 00:57:00,599 have available, and I feel like the responsible thing is 1034 00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:04,679 to find balance in your life and to utilize the 1035 00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,360 tools when they are uh, you know, when you have access, 1036 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,559 when you are in a privileged enough position to do them. 1037 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,880 I think where things get irresponsible, right, it is where 1038 00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,920 people have access to tools that are evidence based and 1039 00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:20,639 they refuse to utilize those tools, not because of a 1040 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:25,480 legitimate risk, but because of an imagined or a agenda 1041 00:57:25,559 --> 00:57:29,800 driven description of risk that's not actually you know, based 1042 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,719 in science. That's when things are worrisome for me living 1043 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,039 in a country where there are people at the helm 1044 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,159 and giving global health advice or national health advice who 1045 00:57:40,199 --> 00:57:42,400 do not have the expertise that they need to be. 1046 00:57:42,599 --> 00:57:44,239 Speaker 3: I would going to say the whole irony of the story, 1047 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:45,559 the long story I told you is I was drinking 1048 00:57:45,559 --> 00:57:47,559 makeup sup before I even lived in Canada where I 1049 00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:53,119 am mouse, and I called it my allergies are acting up. 1050 00:57:53,159 --> 00:57:57,559 So if I'm like sniffling a bit, that's that's me 1051 00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:58,400 in June. 1052 00:57:58,519 --> 00:58:00,519 Speaker 2: Basically that's your DNA. 1053 00:58:00,599 --> 00:58:00,840 Speaker 1: Man. 1054 00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:05,079 Speaker 3: Well, you know allergy is probably linked to immune cell's 1055 00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:08,159 gone wrong, so anyway. 1056 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:11,199 Speaker 2: Probably everything. I mean, that's the It's like whenever. 1057 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,639 Speaker 1: I talk on the show about patriarchy or I talk 1058 00:58:13,639 --> 00:58:16,320 about intersectionality, and like it's one of those things where 1059 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,679 where you start. Once you see it, you can't not 1060 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,000 see it everywhere. 1061 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,079 Speaker 3: I imagine patriarchy has like mutation. And I was like, 1062 00:58:23,199 --> 00:58:26,079 let me under that one a little bit more. 1063 00:58:26,599 --> 00:58:27,800 Speaker 2: I'll figure out how it is. 1064 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,760 Speaker 1: No, But like probably once you start thinking in terms 1065 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,679 of you know, like we started thinking in terms of 1066 00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:35,840 cell turnover itself. Once we realize that your cells are 1067 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,880 not permanent, it changed the way we thought about biology. 1068 00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:41,679 Now that we realize that your DNA is not permanent, 1069 00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:46,760 that it's constantly changing throughout the lifespan, it probably does. 1070 00:58:47,039 --> 00:58:50,760 It's it's the water that these researchers and these you know, 1071 00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:55,000 these biomedical scientists but also practitioners are probably starting to 1072 00:58:55,159 --> 00:58:58,199 swim in, and it has explanatory value. 1073 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,599 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And like I feel so glad that I 1074 00:59:01,639 --> 00:59:03,559 did this book because now I'm like, well, I told 1075 00:59:03,599 --> 00:59:06,719 you so, like I said it, and the you know, 1076 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,320 like you know, during the pandemic I wrote about I 1077 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,639 was the first journalist to write about COVID being airborne. 1078 00:59:12,679 --> 00:59:14,000 And I did it at a time where a lot 1079 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,920 of my friends who are science journalists were like, don't 1080 00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,039 say that, Rock sannem like it's you know, just wash 1081 00:59:19,079 --> 00:59:20,679 your hands and I was like, no, no, I like, 1082 00:59:21,199 --> 00:59:25,920 know these virologists, I know these aerobiologists, like you know, 1083 00:59:26,519 --> 00:59:28,119 I think this is something I need to say, and 1084 00:59:28,159 --> 00:59:31,079 I said it, and I felt so good after I 1085 00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:33,280 said it, even though it took like six months for 1086 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,679 people to like robout you to come along and be like, oh, 1087 00:59:35,719 --> 00:59:38,320 actually also wear a mask. I don't know if it 1088 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,800 was six months, but it was several. It wasn't right away. 1089 00:59:41,079 --> 00:59:43,000 But I feel the same way about this. I feel 1090 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,239 the same way. I feel like I said it, and 1091 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,719 now I can relax because I let other people kind 1092 00:59:48,719 --> 00:59:51,239 of like catch up to it and like feel the 1093 00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,360 consequence of it. But I do think it's a really 1094 00:59:53,639 --> 00:59:56,480 important thing for people to grasp. Well. 1095 00:59:56,559 --> 01:00:00,159 Speaker 1: Gosh, speaking of relaxing, that I have to ask, are 1096 01:00:00,199 --> 01:00:03,679 you back to your your nonsense? You know? Are you 1097 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,840 just finding really interesting stories within these fields and continue 1098 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,039 to report on that. Do you have any new obsessions 1099 01:00:11,079 --> 01:00:12,519 that you're chasing down now? 1100 01:00:12,639 --> 01:00:15,079 Speaker 3: I mean, interestingly, when I was writing this book, people like, oh, 1101 01:00:15,199 --> 01:00:18,079 so you're writing about epigenetics, and I was like no, no, no, no, no, 1102 01:00:18,079 --> 01:00:22,480 no no no. Like so, epigenetics refers to like the markers, 1103 01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:25,599 these chemical tags that end up on DNA to like 1104 01:00:25,639 --> 01:00:27,480 turn it on or turn it off, but it doesn't 1105 01:00:27,519 --> 01:00:32,000 actually change the DNA sequence itself. And these tags can 1106 01:00:32,079 --> 01:00:34,039 change through behavior, so like again like going back to 1107 01:00:34,119 --> 01:00:36,840 smoking or exercise or all these things. Like it can 1108 01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:39,639 modify like which genes are turned on and off by 1109 01:00:39,719 --> 01:00:43,559 the addition or subtraction of these these epigenetic tags. So 1110 01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:45,599 I've actually I've gone back to actually writing about that, 1111 01:00:45,679 --> 01:00:47,440 and I have a cool story coming up about that 1112 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,639 in Nature and Nature Magazine. So yeah, like I'm back 1113 01:00:51,679 --> 01:00:54,440 on my stuff. As you could say, amazing. 1114 01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:56,079 Speaker 2: I love it well, everybody. 1115 01:00:56,159 --> 01:01:00,599 Speaker 1: The book is beyond Inheritance, are Ever Mutating so and 1116 01:01:00,639 --> 01:01:04,840 a new understanding of health. It's been such a pleasure 1117 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,519 to chat with you today and there's so much in 1118 01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:12,239 here that we did not get to. So guys, pick 1119 01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:13,920 up the book because I know you're going to love it. 1120 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,880 Thank you, Thank you, Thank you so much to Roxanne Camsey, 1121 01:01:18,079 --> 01:01:19,000 Thank you for being here. 1122 01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,039 Speaker 3: It was just a joy. Yeah, that was so much fun. 1123 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:23,519 I'm so glad we talked. 1124 01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:26,639 Speaker 1: Thank you me too, and everybody listening. Thank you for 1125 01:01:26,679 --> 01:01:29,199 coming back week after week. I'm really looking forward to 1126 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:30,719 the next time we all get together. 1127 01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 3: To talk to Artie