WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.600 We interface with financial institutions all over planet Earth. We 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:07.080 were early and aggressive. I mentioned we just started experimenting 3 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:09.759 in a blockchain. We began to understand that maybe there's 4 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.400 a number of different blockchains that are going to be 5 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:16.399 winners here. Blockchains are technologies they'll continue to iterate in 6 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.359 the information based economy. We think of these as just 7 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:22.719 utility rails, So we want to be on as many 8 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:26.280 of those ecosystems as we can because that's where we're 9 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:28.079 going to find customers eventually. 10 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:35.840 This episode is brought to you by Treasure. Treasure makes 11 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.479 beautifully crafted hardware wallets that allow you to easily and 12 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:42.600 safely store your crypto assets. Treasure has been in the 13 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.560 game for a very long time, since twenty thirteen. They 14 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.439 were the pioneers of hardware wallets and the seed phrase setup, 15 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.520 and their hardware wallets are open source. In fact, my 16 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.399 favorite is the Treasure Save five. It's a beautifully designed 17 00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:59.520 and easy to use hardware wallet guys, and it's my 18 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:02.640 go to. 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Hey, everyone, 29 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.719 welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony 30 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:39.640 Edward and we're recording at Station three in New York's 31 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:42.719 Financial District. And joining me today's Roger Bastin, who is 32 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:45.680 the head of Digital Assets at Franklin Templeton, which is 33 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:48.599 one of the largest investment firms in the world, managing 34 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.480 over one point six trillion dollars in assets. Roger, great 35 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:54.599 to have you. Yeah, thanks for having me, Roger. I'm 36 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.079 excited for this conversation. Franklin Templeton is leading to charge 37 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:00.680 in many different ways as it relates to your assets. 38 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.879 So I have lots of questions for you. Awesome, but 39 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:05.719 I'd love to start with your backrop tell us a 40 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.359 bit about yourself. Where are you from, where'd you grow 41 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.199 up and how'd you end up at Franklin Templeton. 42 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:12.560 Wow. Well, yeah, I actually grew up in the midwest, 43 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.840 central Illinois, but I came kind of the East coast 44 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.199 to do my undergraduate work at the University of Virginia. 45 00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:22.199 Came to Wall Street in New York in the mid eighties, 46 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.039 spent about three years here, and I found myself heading 47 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:28.199 to the West coast to go to graduate business school 48 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:33.199 at UCLA. Once I got to UCLA in the wonderful 49 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:35.879 California and sunshine, I was like, well, this is going 50 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:38.479 to be a good place to be ended up being 51 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:43.680 hired out of business school what then was known as 52 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:47.280 Franklin Group of Funds. Wow, in nineteen ninety one. And 53 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:49.960 I've actually been at Franklin and then, you know, as 54 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:53.960 we've been a net acquirer of asset managers over time. 55 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:56.719 Franklin Templeton, Yeah, since nineteen ninety one. Who do you 56 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.319 have on your show who's been at the same firm 57 00:02:58.360 --> 00:02:58.800 that long? 58 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:02.919 Nobody? That's an incredible tenure. So did you want to 59 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:03.879 go into finance? 60 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:04.400 You know? 61 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:05.879 Was out your target goal? 62 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:09.080 So I had some exposure when I was younger because 63 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:12.520 my father was one of the first persons who took 64 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.639 the CFA Exam, and that CFA Exam program is a 65 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:20.479 kind of a there is an organization CFA, but there's 66 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:24.560 a lot of professionals that aid in like creating the 67 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:27.240 exam and creating the exam, and you know, they really 68 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.159 draw on the whole community of of CFA participants in 69 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.039 order to be able to make that whole thing work 70 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:34.919 and hum. And this was many years ago now, but 71 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.840 a lot of those CFA people had investment. There were 72 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.719 investment people right in the investment community, and so I 73 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:42.759 had a lot of exposure to a lot of different 74 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:49.439 investment professionals having been around that CFA institute early in 75 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.719 my you know, when I was you know, in junior high, 76 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.439 in high school and those you know, college formative years, 77 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:56.520 and so I had a pretty good idea that I 78 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.719 wanted to be doing investment investment related things. And so 79 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.199 when I went to graduate, when I came to New York, 80 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.800 I actually was working for a company that was then 81 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:09.159 called Banker's Trust Company, and we were you know, in 82 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:11.520 several locations in the city, but I was I was 83 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.240 in the index fund group. So like think about the 84 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:18.040 you know period in nineteen eighty six toward nineteen eighty nine, 85 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:20.839 which is when I was there explosive activity in the 86 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:25.000 number of pension funds who were thinking about, hey, maybe 87 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.920 I can you know, put some lower cost index fund 88 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.879 passive investment strategies in our portfolio at a lower cost 89 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.839 rather than paying high cost active management fees. So that's 90 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.240 kind of where I cut my teeth. And it's been 91 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.439 a great career. I've seen a lot of things over 92 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.240 almost four decades of experience now in these markets. 93 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:44.480 Oh yeah, I'm sure you have a plthora of knowledge, 94 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.920 and I'm curious what your point of view is or 95 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.319 take of or perspective I should say on how the 96 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.439 markets have changed, especially as they become digitized, On what 97 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.480 the internet and help blockchain. 98 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.560 Well, I think in the in the big thematic one 99 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.360 is a fact that all of these technologies have continued 100 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:08.759 to drive down the pricing of asset management services. I 101 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:10.759 think of the world in two camps. Those who have 102 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.920 capital and then those who want capital. So have capital 103 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.879 would be like big major retirement plans, pension plans and 104 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.240 that kind of stuff. Those who want capital, businesses you 105 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.079 know who want that, and anything else in between. And 106 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:28.000 the intermediary role in between that take out rents between 107 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:31.560 those two that prevent the have capital for getting the 108 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:35.000 most return on their capital, and they want capital to 109 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:38.319 get the lowest costs of capital. Inside of all that 110 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:39.879 are a number of different actors, and what we've seen 111 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:43.120 is keep hollowing out of those actors and those rents 112 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.519 in between. And I think you know where we've arrive 113 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:49.240 now with blockchain technology, because a lot of those rents 114 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.839 in between those two actors are really a legacy of 115 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:56.240 like we have this record, you have that record. It's 116 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.600 gonna take us five days to settle a stock. I 117 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.399 mean that's when I first started, right because we have 118 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:02.759 to get these records moved back and forth. And this 119 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.519 whole distributed ledger technology where you have a record, I 120 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.240 have a record and that's the same record, really dramatically 121 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:11.360 changes all of that. So I've seen that whole path, 122 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.879 you know, keeps shrinking down, and I think that's ultimately 123 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.439 to the benefit again of the the owners of capital 124 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:20.839 to get higher returns on capital. I think there's a 125 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.759 whole bunch of other things happening with blockchain and distribute 126 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:28.079 ledger technologies that expand the opportunity set uh for those 127 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:30.480 investors as well. But those are some of the themes 128 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:31.600 I think I could point to. 129 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.639 So is it like a natural evolution of the technology 130 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:39.240 that you know, the macro internet, internet based companies, the 131 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.600 ability to move data real time uh subtle real time 132 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.959 with now stable coins and tokenized assets. It's it's a 133 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:49.279 natural evolution of how maybe things started in nin nineties 134 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:49.959 with the Internet. 135 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:53.199 Well, I mean you say it started with the Internet, 136 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:55.360 but I mean all of these activities started a long, long, 137 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:56.000 long time ago. 138 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:56.399 Oh sure. 139 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.759 I mean, like one of the one of the basic 140 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:03.000 I guess laws, securities laws that govern a lot of 141 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.560 these things, like our projects like Benji, our tokenized money 142 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.360 funder are called the forty Act. They're called forty Act 143 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:14.279 funds because the law was written in nineteen forty. And 144 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.360 so you know how we did things in nineteen forty 145 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.680 where we were passing paper certificates around to each other 146 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:24.000 and you needed to self custody you know, this particular 147 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:25.879 asset by holding the piece of paper and you had 148 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.560 some sort of fire safe or we started having these 149 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.600 big custody businesses who are like, well, we'll take care 150 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.120 of that for you, so you don't have to worry 151 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:36.600 about that that is all just rapidly changing because of 152 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:38.759 these technologies. And yes, it might have been the Internet 153 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:43.959 and the networking of you know, businesses and planets and 154 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.600 entities all over planet Earth, but it's arrived at a 155 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.480 pretty exciting time. In those forty some years that I've 156 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:54.279 described in my career, I've never seen more opportunities in 157 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:58.120 asset management than i've you know, ever, So it's pretty 158 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:00.000 exciting time to be able to be in the space 159 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:01.839 base and exploring. 160 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:03.959 Quite frankly, Roger, there. 161 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:06.480 Are still some skeptics out there who said, who needs 162 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:10.160 this blockchain stuff? What does tokenization matter? So I'm curious 163 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:12.639 if you can answer that question from a perspective of 164 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:16.560 what Franklin Templeton's building. Is this in a test? Is 165 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.920 this an R and D project or is this something 166 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:20.519 you are looking to build that's going to. 167 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:22.279 Be the fabric of the business. 168 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.639 I think that's a really great question because a lot 169 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:29.720 of times when technologies come forward and we start doing things, 170 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:34.720 and you know, we've been aggressive and token is exploring tokenization, 171 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:38.799 and we have a you know, a big branded, you 172 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:43.200 know product that we're really kind of talking to clients 173 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.960 all over the globe, and that's a tokenized money fund. 174 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:50.679 Money funds are our securities, and we still operate within 175 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:53.919 the kind of geographic borders of very securities laws all 176 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:56.159 over planet earths. We have a number of different Benji's 177 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:58.559 that we have a US Benji, we have a ce 178 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:02.279 keV use it's eligible. We have a Singapore Benji. You know, 179 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:06.240 we have a number of those things. And you know 180 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:10.840 we have been and we we have you know, over 181 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.480 a billion dollars of customer client assets in it. That 182 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.240 doesn't feel like a proof of a concept really, but 183 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.559 I think what we've really uncovered because the question gets 184 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:22.480 asked a lot. You should call them skeptics, but tuality 185 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.600 like the current system seems to work, so why are 186 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:29.840 we doing That's differently, but what we have uncovered and Benji, 187 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.679 we just had this idea. I had this idea, Hey, 188 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.559 how do we use distributed ledger technology in our business? 189 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.720 I mean ledger? That word ledger is really important. As 190 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.720 I mentioned, the whole industry is full of records. Yes, 191 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.279 whether it's asset management, whether it's capital markets records is 192 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.200 what I'm honing in on. And this idea that this 193 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.759 technology would be disruptive disruptive means it could you know, 194 00:09:55.159 --> 00:10:00.000 impact your current business. It could also create opportunities for you. 195 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:02.279 Meant that we were just like, hey, let's start and 196 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.320 do something. And now we started that some eight years ago, 197 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.600 so at that point I think it was a proof 198 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:13.279 of concept. But what we unpacked was being on these 199 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:18.480 new rails created new utility, and that utility accrues to 200 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.879 the users and the shareholders and the customers of the product. Now, 201 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.679 in Benji's case, that utility kind of is into form one. 202 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.279 You and I can I can transfer Benji back and 203 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.639 forth to one another, literally as fast as a new 204 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:38.200 block can be appended onto a blockchain. So those times 205 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.120 are you know, fractions of a second. So I can 206 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:47.200 move an interest bearing asset back and forth between economic actors, individuals, companies, whatever, 207 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.120 in less than a you know, in fractions of a second. 208 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:56.279 Number one. But because the blockchain is composable, we have 209 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:00.240 been able to take the twenty four hour cycle of interest, 210 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:07.559 decompose that into seconds, and for however many seconds and 211 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.960 minutes or hours you hold Benji, I can pay you 212 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.360 for those portions of the day, rather than it's being 213 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.759 on this twenty four o'clock. Now, that may, you know, 214 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.080 for you and I as individuals, I don't know if 215 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.679 that's you know, super interesting, but for the tremendous the 216 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:27.200 billions and trillions of dollars that flow through the capital 217 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.000 markets and financial system every day, an interest bearing an 218 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:32.759 asset that if I hold it for five minutes, my 219 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:37.759 asset is sweating big thing, so big new type of 220 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:42.320 markets that unfold because of the utilities of using these 221 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:46.039 new blockchain rails in order to build products and services 222 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:47.679 on top of that's what we've discovered. 223 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:51.120 Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of 224 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.639 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if 225 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.039 you can please support the podcast by hitting the like 226 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.639 button subscribing. If you haven't as yet, you can leave 227 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.799 a comment below as well. And if you're listening on 228 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:03.840 a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple or wherever you 229 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:06.840 get your podcasts, please be sure to follow and hit 230 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:07.879 the five star rating. 231 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:10.080 I'll let you get back to the content. Thank you 232 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:10.559 so much. 233 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.440 Now, you mentioned there's a different form of benji across 234 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.480 the globe in the US markets and different markets. 235 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:16.399 Tell us a bit. 236 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.120 About is that all connected to a central hub, so 237 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.360 to speak? All running on the same blockchain rails, but 238 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:23.919 just categorize in different regions. 239 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:28.240 Well, I think the way in our exploration of deploying 240 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:34.159 these tokenization platforms, we you know, we started on one chain, 241 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.600 but we quickly began to think about how and when 242 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:42.240 we started that process. By the way, again, we wanted 243 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.600 to be a user of blockchain, right. We weren't sitting 244 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.519 here looking back and saying, well, do cryptos X, Y, 245 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.399 and Z have value? You know, how do we extract 246 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:53.960 value from those? It's like, oh, these are new and 247 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:59.720 interesting and vastly improved, you know, data record systems. This 248 00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:02.399 idea that we both have the same copy of the 249 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:06.440 ledger at any given time, let's experiment and do things 250 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:11.320 on those. And we we found efficiency gains in the 251 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:14.399 part of the securities business that we call transfer agency. 252 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:17.919 So if we're in the business of issuing securities, we 253 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:24.080 have rules and responsibilities wrapped around transfer agency to receive 254 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.519 permission to issue those securities. And those those are records 255 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.279 that we have to maintain forever. Those are records of 256 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.240 who you are, where you are, and those are kept 257 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.799 in more private database systems that you know, don't expose 258 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.000 personal identify information out into the marketplace. But it's the 259 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.120 transaction records. So it is the things that say, hey, 260 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:49.879 you subscribed, you redeemed, you reinvested dividends. These transaction record 261 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:53.120 keeping systems are large and large, and they grow and 262 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.240 we have to keep them forever, and so we were 263 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:57.759 just kind of thinking maybe the blockchain would be a 264 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:02.000 better place to house those records rather than in our centralized, 265 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:07.279 monolithic database system that we head inside of our transfer 266 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.080 agency system. And so in that experimentation, you know, we 267 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.240 covered big efficiency gains and that gave us super big 268 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.480 confidence that this wasn't something that was just a fad, 269 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.080 but these were going to be rails. These were going 270 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.720 to be new infrastructure for the capital market. It's asset 271 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:28.600 management moving forward, and so we kind of put more 272 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.240 chips on the table to develop what those outcomes would be. 273 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:34.759 You just mentioned something that these are going to be 274 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.480 the rails for the capital markets. So is that where 275 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:42.559 the puck is heading in, where banks, investment firms, stock exchanges, 276 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:45.159 you name it, and then would plug into the government 277 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:47.320 with the treasury and so forth. All these things will 278 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.360 be running on plup chain. 279 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.840 Yeah, I might go back. You made a statement that 280 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:55.440 I was kind of raising eyebrows about there's still skepticals, skill, 281 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.840 still skeptics. Where are those skeptics? By and large? I mean, 282 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.440 we interface with financial institutions all over planet Earth. We 283 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.399 were early and aggressive. I mentioned we just started experimenting 284 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.080 in a blockchain. We begin to understand that maybe there's 285 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.720 a number of different blockchains that are going to be 286 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.919 winners here. Blockchains are technologies, they'll continue to iterate. There's 287 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:21.639 in the information based economy. We think of these as 288 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.879 just utility rails and pipes for the information based economy. 289 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.720 So we want to be on as many of those 290 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:31.480 ecosystems as we can because that's where we're going to 291 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.799 find customers eventually. And so it's not you know, it's 292 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:39.720 not one winner takes all. In our environmvironment. We think 293 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.440 of these as kind of digital nation states. They have 294 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.639 their own economies, they're aggressive and pursuing and growing their 295 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.799 own economies. We want to grow in there with their economies, 296 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:51.639 alongside of them. Whatever we may decide to bring as 297 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:56.000 a you know, securities you related product or service on 298 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:58.159 top of those rails. And so that's kind of where 299 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.360 our journey, So our journey actually permates a across a 300 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.399 number of different blockchains. I think we may be on 301 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.159 either ten or eleven blockchains currently with our products and services, 302 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.879 where we are in the process of building a tokenization factory, 303 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.919 and we are doing that and we're deploying toward that 304 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:19.080 end specifically because we have massive confidence about all of 305 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.399 these legacy partners that we know that have we worked 306 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.240 with in traditional financial service firms over time are going 307 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.480 to be coming onto the web three wallet ecosystems, and 308 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.879 of course there's just hundreds and hundreds of millions of 309 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.039 web through digital wallets all over planet Earth already, and 310 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.159 we want to be able to provide products and services 311 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.039 into that existing ecosystem as well. 312 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.120 Now, you mentioned you're building on public chains and a 313 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.759 handful of them, and it seems it's going to be 314 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:50.639 a multichain world, as you alluded to, But are you 315 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:54.240 also looking at building your own internal permission blockchain. It 316 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:57.840 seems like that's a hybrid model. Is kind of the 317 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.799 what some people are doing where they're bridging public chains. 318 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.559 I think the short answer is no, I mean, and 319 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:09.119 that is obviously a trend. We talked with friends yesterday. 320 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.200 You know, coinbase has a has a blockchain, Yes, right, 321 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:15.720 And I was asking questions like, look, hey, in my 322 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.200 in my in our past life, and we're work counseling 323 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.640 and talking to you know, investors all over planet Earth. 324 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:26.359 You know. The previous kind of construct was, let me 325 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.240 choose a custodian where I know my assets are saving 326 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.680 trust and usually they have relationships with these entities over 327 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:37.039 decades quite frankly, our institutional investor communities and clients have. 328 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:41.160 And then let me work to find where I can 329 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.039 get best execution because in my fuduciary responsibilities for these clients, 330 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.119 I have to make the lowest transaction costs. Where can 331 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.000 I get the best execution on whatever the idea is 332 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.279 that I'm offering advice on to them. But all of 333 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.920 those are kind of subdivided different actors. And now you know, 334 00:17:57.960 --> 00:17:59.839 you have somebody like coinbase who's like, well, we're the 335 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.960 change you're gonna custody with us, and oh and as 336 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.279 our blockchain that you might be evolved into. So it's 337 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.160 a real interesting conversation when you're describing this ecosystem to 338 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.720 institutional other institutional investors and adopters who are so used 339 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.000 to being like, well, all of these things are separated out. 340 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.680 How can they be all knitted together? And clearly we're 341 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:21.759 seeing large cases where you know, people like Robin Hood 342 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.839 are saying, hey, we want we want our own chain. 343 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.240 You know, I think that's a really interesting strategy. Franklin 344 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.799 Templeton is not diving down to that strategy. We want 345 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.200 to be part of a bunch of people's chains, quite frankly, 346 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.440 and ride inside of those kind of like I said, 347 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.759 digital nation states. As they grow, some of them will 348 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.799 grow faster, some of them may become obsolete. We don't know, 349 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:43.960 but we do know that there's a lot of capital 350 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:49.119 deployed by these legacy chains, and some of those actors 351 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.440 like Ripple have really fantastic plans to be able to 352 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.559 take that capital that has grown an XRP over time 353 00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.839 and be able to redeploy that to build quite frankly 354 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.319 substantial businesses. And they have a lot of money to 355 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.039 be able to deploy to make those ends come about. Oh. 356 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:06.720 Absolutely. 357 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:09.599 Now we're seeing different types of assets being put on 358 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:13.119 the blockchain money market funds. You know, obviously frank and 359 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.279 Templeton is doing that. Are you planning to do anything 360 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.559 with all their asset classes? Precious metals real estate and 361 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:19.119 things like that. 362 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.920 Well, yeah, I mean I think what is unfolded in 363 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:25.480 front of the opportunities. And this is why I say 364 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:33.000 it's so exciting, is that as the as we approach 365 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:37.559 opportunities in what we call the have wallet ecosystem. So 366 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:42.200 we're talking about the finances and coinbases and okax and 367 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.000 Krakens you know of the world that have literally hundreds 368 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:49.640 of millions of wallets. Those are potentially new customers for us. 369 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:53.319 You know, our journey started with money funds, but you know, 370 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:55.640 with our one point seven trillion and we cover you know, 371 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.160 basically every asset class on the planet. How can we 372 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.720 take those our services of offering advice around those things 373 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.920 and bring them delivery into the new have wallet ecosystem. Simultaneous, 374 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:11.359 you have all of these legacy actors who are just 375 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.119 over the past year quite frankly, have permissions to be 376 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.599 able to seek wallets. Those are our legacy business partners 377 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.279 for decades, quite frankly, and we know they're going to 378 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:24.920 be coming into space. And so we are firmly firm 379 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:28.519 believers that we will meet customers large and small in 380 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:33.079 a web three point of wallet you know service somewhere 381 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.359 and so yeah, we're going to you know, over time, 382 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:39.240 and it will take time sure, transmit all of these 383 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:42.519 other things into this type of you want to call 384 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:44.480 them tokenies, but really what they are is just a 385 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:48.480 new kind of form that clients are holding the asset, 386 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.000 but there's still a security. They're still you know, they're 387 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.920 wrapped in securities or they're wrapped into commodities type of wrapper. 388 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:58.400 Those are at least that's what our experience is showing 389 00:20:58.440 --> 00:20:58.759 so far. 390 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:02.599 You mentioned Binance right recently that you have formed a 391 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:04.880 partnership with Finance. Tell us about that and how you'll 392 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:06.000 be working together. 393 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:10.079 Well, Benji is we are working with a number of 394 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.599 different exchanges, and Finances is one of those to bring 395 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:18.559 U specifically some of their institutional customers who want a 396 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.640 trade on finance but want to hold a yield bearing 397 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.839 asset as collateral inside of the trades versus a non 398 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.440 yield bearing stable coin. And it's as simple as that. 399 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.240 How do we how do those customers you know, who 400 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.640 are doing maybe complex derivative trades get a little bit 401 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.880