WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.560 We embark on a new journey today. How are you doing, Thomas, 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:09.400 I'm very well. Thanks for hosting me. This one is 3 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:14.400 going to be This one's interesting to me because I 4 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:17.120 was alive for part of this, and I was sentient. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:22.120 I mean, I remember a lot of this. So we 6 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:27.039 had teased about talking about the Cold War, but you 7 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:30.000 said that you had a We're going to start at 8 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.879 the end and then go back to the beginning. So 9 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:33.119 what do you got? 10 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:35.600 Well, it's a few things here. I want to explain 11 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:38.320 my rationale before we deep dive into it. You know, 12 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.280 I don't want to presume the viewers and the listeners 13 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:43.439 have knowledge that they don't. I mean, I'm not saying 14 00:00:43.479 --> 00:00:45.719 that anybody's not smart or anything, but some of this 15 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:49.560 stuff has become someone is terror just because the way 16 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:54.200 the news cycle doesn't properly provide context to historical events, 17 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.799 particularly where there's military variables involved, and you know, political 18 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:01.320 narratives be can paramount to characterize these things. But also 19 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:04.519 it's as hard to place one self conceptually in an 20 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:08.840 epoch that has totally passed. You know, I went through that. 21 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:12.079 When when when people like my parents need to talk 22 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:14.719 about the fifties and the sixties and things. You know, 23 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:17.319 I mean, all all people go through that. But you 24 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:19.319 know the reason why I indicated, you know, I want 25 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.280 to I'm treating this as kind of the end was 26 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:25.799 the beginning. Everything that is happening today in political terms 27 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:28.439 and in foreign policy terms, in terms of the in 28 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:30.959 terms of the guiding ideology of Washington. And I say 29 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.400 ideology not ideology, is plural because I really do believe 30 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.319 that there's a true consensus there. There there's no opposition 31 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:40.480 party in Washington at all. I mean, arguably since nineteen 32 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:43.319 thirty three there hasn't been real opposition, but in discrete 33 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.079 policy terms, there was. Now that that no longer exists. 34 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:49.840 There's an absolute quorum. There's one ideology. There's one strategic vision. 35 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:53.359 There's one there's there's one sense of when intervention and 36 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.560 force is is is legitimate, and that that is totally 37 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.040 ideologically driven. It's not it's not driven by rategic variables 38 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.640 of a realistic, even particularly concrete in nature. You know, 39 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:07.159 it's very much based on a very abstract things and 40 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:12.639 ideological things. But the only way to understand why that 41 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:14.719 is the case, and the only way to understand why 42 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:18.199 Ukraine is the designated battleground. And the only way to 43 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:21.960 understand why Russia, the Russian Federation as it exists today, 44 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:27.400 has been slated for annihilation UH is to understand how 45 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.039 the Cold War resolved and why it resolved the way 46 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:35.400 it did. So to begin, I'm going to go back 47 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.280 to the last sort of conflict cycle of the Cold 48 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.919 War very briefly, to speak on Dayton. Dayton was born 49 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:45.560 in two things. For those that don't know Dayton was 50 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:49.319 it was a It was an It was an explicit 51 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:53.759 and series of implicit agreements between the United States and 52 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:58.120 so Union warsaw pack to not engage in direct strategic competition. 53 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:02.400 Part of this over the act that UH America was 54 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:05.879 losing the Cold War militarily, not just in Vietnam, but 55 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:12.159 on secondary battlefronts like Angola. The the Indo Pakistan War 56 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.879 was very much an attempt to UH, owing to the UH, 57 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:19.560 to the then NACI sent of Soviets split that the 58 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.719 Soviet turnist and hedging China with with India, you know, 59 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.439 being a huge populous country. Pakistan was kind of the 60 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:30.960 American response to that, you know, creating trying to cultivate 61 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.639 Pakistan as a proxy. But these things are not going well, 62 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.360 and obviously direct intervention. There's this weird period between the 63 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:42.479 end of the military draft and you know, the the 64 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.960 the kind of full development of the all volunteer force 65 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.439 and the full development implementations becoming known of the revolution 66 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.280 and military affairs, you know, the entailerything from command to 67 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:56.960 control technology to global positioning intelogy you know, to uh too, 68 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:00.680 smart munitions becoming the norm rather than the exception. Okay, 69 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.439 there's a strange kind of period between those two things 70 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.919 where the US Army was operating on a shoe string budget. 71 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.800 I mean the whole not just the army, the whole military. 72 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:11.960 There was no political will in Washington for the overseas 73 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.040 communism in the Third World in Europe to become very stagnant. 74 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:18.360 But in the Third World it had this great animating power, 75 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:21.759 and there were the Soviets were blessed with a great 76 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:24.879 deal of proxies who were already in being, you know, 77 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:31.959 uh in cadri with a full cadre structure, and you know, 78 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.759 men under arms that could facilitate military outcomes that very 79 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:39.160 much benefited the Soviets. All they really needed was a 80 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.040 constant to play of weapons, and the Soviets could kind 81 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:46.079 of take a hands off approach. So from about nineteen 82 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.079 seventy three onward, you know, this this kind of this 83 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:55.639 kind of strategic paradigm ragned. However, during that period, the 84 00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:02.920 technology that that underpins strategic nuclear weapons dramatically improved, you know, 85 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:06.600 owing to the over to the early revolution in computing technology, 86 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:11.680 to going to increase improved circular error probable from you know, 87 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.160 things like the space program, you know, and just owing 88 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:18.000 the owing the real satellite technology. We'll get into that 89 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:20.720 a minute. What I mean, you know what it we 90 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.519 take for granted that satellite imaging, you know, gives you 91 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.000 a real time picture of the battle space, but that 92 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.439 was not the case until the late nineteen seventies, probably 93 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:35.319 until nineteen eighty. Okay, so uh, this endured until nineteen 94 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:40.399 seventy nine. In nineteen seventy nine, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Uh, 95 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:45.199 and that really alarmed people because, for reasons we ate 96 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.240 into in a moment beyond the obvious, it was misunderstood 97 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.399 why that happened. I know, mister Trump said it was 98 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:54.680 to fight Islamic terrorism. That doesn't make any sense. Other 99 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:57.720 people claim that, well, it was the president doctrine you 100 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.279 know that being that the Soviet Union declared that it 101 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.000 would intervene on behalf of the socialist community of nation 102 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:07.839 is to preserve socialism. Okay, that was the rationale, the pretext. 103 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:12.319 What it really was was that outside of Moscow, the 104 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:15.439 primary command and control hub for Soviet strategic nuclear forces 105 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.439 was in Kazakhstan or was it, Yeah, it was in Kazakhstan, Okay, 106 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.800 And that's why not accidentally that for Star City is 107 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:24.519 you know where the Soviet Union and later of the 108 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:29.319 Russian Federalation you'll, launched their space vehicles from. So if 109 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.680 Afghanistan could be flipped or could have been flipped and 110 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:39.079 transformed into a Western client state with basing rights there, uh, 111 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:42.839 the Soviets have been looking at a situation where there 112 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.319 there's strategic nuclear command and control would be decavitated, you know, 113 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.800 at least a substantial portion of it, and that was 114 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:52.079 not acceptable now and drop of even the bredgion that 115 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.360 was at the hell Andy drop off was really kind 116 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.439 of the that the shadow executive of the Soviet Union. 117 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.160 You know, the Soviet political structure was very not just 118 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:05.959 because the party in the state were were interstitially combined 119 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:10.000 with one another, but because who was the true executive, 120 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.720 you know, varied, you know, generally it was a man 121 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:17.120 will a communitions have all offices, you know, like the UH. 122 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:19.160 He'd often would be a man who held both the 123 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:24.120 premiership and the General Secretary of the Communist Party. Other 124 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:26.480 times it was it was it was far more UH 125 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:32.000 Opigue and UH and drop off reigned formally as UH 126 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:36.720 as as as you know, the the General Secretary from 127 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.040 eighty two to eighty four, but I'd argue that probably 128 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:42.519 fromout nineteen sixty nine he was a true shadow executive 129 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.720 of the Soviet Union, and he was a very brilliant guy. 130 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.240 And the world as its structured today and the fate 131 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:52.000 of the Soviet Union and decisions made therein for better 132 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.360 and ill o very much dimster and drop of, But 133 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:58.680 it was his decision doing vade Afghanistan, and he was 134 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.319 looking many steps ahead in terms of, you know, the 135 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.439 implications for the strategic nuclear balance and UH, the ability 136 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:11.279 of the Soviet Union to survive the Ball from the 137 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.319 Blue nuclear assault, which was a real concern for reasons 138 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:19.279 we'll get into. And it's some it's difficult to emphasize 139 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:24.839 how dangerous it was. They have two superpowers fully mobilized 140 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:27.759 with massive nuclear arsenals on hair trigger alert at all 141 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:33.039 time when the technological curve was really moving towards removing 142 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:36.960 human decision makers from the equation. You know, the only 143 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:40.360 to with the narrowing temporal window of decision making in 144 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.960 the event of nuclear war, this is really becoming out 145 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:45.679 of it was really kind of becoming removed from human hands. 146 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:49.320 You know, technology is it's own momentum and societies at 147 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.639 scale where you're talking about literally hundreds of millions of 148 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:56.799 people and you know, thousands on thousands on thousands of 149 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:01.039 aggregate decisions, you know, can vote control or trajectory of 150 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.159 that massive state. You know, these these things can't just 151 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:08.159 easily be moved one or the other and the perial 152 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.879 breaks cancas be put on an apparatus of that scope, 153 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.960 scale and complexity, you know, Like I mean, this is 154 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.480 this is fundamental to understanding the do you. 155 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.679 Think they go ahead, let me ask, do you think 156 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.200 that they did that because of you know, Daniel Olisburg 157 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.759 put out the Doomsday Machine, which really shined a light 158 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.600 on what he saw in the nuclear policy. What was 159 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:40.279 the way in the late fifties, early sixties, how the 160 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.399 how nukes were being overseen. Do you think that that 161 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:52.480 because of the way that could have turned into a disaster, 162 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.480 they possibly thought that, well, if we turned this over 163 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:59.480 into more of a even starting to talk about AI 164 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:01.919 and things like that, it would be better than having 165 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:03.000 humans handle. 166 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:07.960 This definitely, and the progenitor, like the proverbial father of AI, 167 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:12.960 is new strategic nuclear war planning. The idea was this, okay, 168 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:15.080 and I'm jumping a little bit ahead because he asked, 169 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.039 I want to kind of deal with this now. By 170 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:21.200 the nineteen eighties, you know where true parody existed when 171 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.960 the superpowers in terms of strategic nuclear forces and being 172 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.360 as well as capabilities, a bolt on the blue strike 173 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.799 if launched by hypersonic cruise missiles from Europe against the 174 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:38.039 Soviet Union, they would have as little as five minutes 175 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:43.159 to render a decision on retaliation. The United States would 176 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.000 have longer, but we're talking about eight to fifteen minutes 177 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.240 in the case of the United States. I'm not gonna 178 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.200 bore people with the details. Ifought that would have played out, 179 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.759 it would have involved things like an SLBM assault launched 180 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:02.360 at the depressed trajectory, the spoof early warning systems detonating 181 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:07.200 a groundburst detonation. Thus an e MP would knock out 182 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.480 remaining early warning. But the point is, like, imagine the 183 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:16.480 situation where, okay, you know, if IF IF IF policy 184 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.039 is to you know, even the policy it's to launch 185 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:22.759 on warning, not launch on confirmation of assault. It's like, okay, 186 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:25.759 it's two in the morning, you know, American time, or 187 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.039 in Moscow. You wake up the way of the United States, 188 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:31.720 or you wake up the General Secretary. You know, you say, 189 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.320 mister President, you know, we we just received what confirmation 190 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.519 like incoming assault. He's got eight minutes to decide, like 191 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.720 how he's gonna retaliate, if he's gonna retaliate, what their 192 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.519 retali he's gonna entail. What force is gonna be availed 193 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:48.360 to it, whether it's gonna be countervol counterforcement, not counter value, 194 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.639 whether it's gonna be you know, full spectrum attack. That 195 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.039 it's we're at the point where this too totally academics, 196 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.840 that's not possible. Okay. So the idea was you've got 197 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.960 to be able to discern absolute indicators before you know, 198 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.799 not not just before launch detection, but before even was 199 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.440 considered early morning detection. If you could code those indicators 200 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:16.879 into variables that could be rendered as inputs. Then your 201 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.759 AI could tell you when you're facing imminent assault. But 202 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:23.840 the problem with that is, like when do you decide, 203 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:27.360 when do you decide to launch? Is that when there's 204 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.120 an over a fifty percent probability of him in an attack, 205 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:34.240 When when it's eighty percent, when it's anything over ten percent, 206 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.279 you know, when it's five percent. You know, these deeper 207 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:43.279 parodies make this incredibly difficult. But regardless, there was a 208 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.600 secondary issue too. And I'm gonna get into this now 209 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.440 because this is a perfect kind of way to kind 210 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:54.799 of slide into it. As Dayton ended Carter, who gets 211 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:56.639 a batter wrap and that don't get me wrong, Carter 212 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:58.799 was not a good president, but he was not a 213 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.000 terrible man. He was actually a very moral man and 214 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:05.120 he did some good things. One of the good things 215 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:11.440 he did was in nineteen seventy nine Carter Carter tacked 216 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:15.480 William Odum. It was a general, very brilliant guy. Odum 217 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.519 was rare because he kind of had the logistical brilliance 218 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.840 of Omar Bradley, but he was also a real warrior, 219 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.000 you know, he was like a soldier's general. He understood combat. 220 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:30.600 He really understood nuclear weapons. Okay, I think it's kind 221 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.799 of a counterpart in the total counterpart would be somebody 222 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:39.720 like Blackjack Pershing. But William Odom went through the presidential 223 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.320 decision making a handbook and literally something that existed for 224 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:50.039 nuclear war, and it was incredibly opig It was incredibly obtuse, 225 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:52.600 It was not up to speed in terms of the 226 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.600 technology of the day, and it didn't give the president 227 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:04.600 any real ability to to It didn't give any liberty 228 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:06.919 of action respective war plan. Now part of that is 229 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:09.399 because it was a drafted in literally ninety sixty five, 230 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:14.399 So basically what it entailed it and in the core 231 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.559 of this of this presidential handbook was the was the PSYOP, 232 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:22.759 not the psychological operation, the SIOP, the single Integrated Operational Plan, 233 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:25.519 because this day there's an SIOP, but it is totally 234 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:31.080 different and it's changed many times. But as of nineteen 235 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:36.480 seventy nine, it was this arcane document that was no 236 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.519 longer relevant, and it basically gave the president a handful 237 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.320 of menu options. It was literally listed as response menu. 238 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:48.000 It was counter value and counter force assault against the 239 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:53.639 Soviet Union. All warsaw pack states were strategic nuclear forces 240 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:56.840 are based and the same for the People's Republic in China. 241 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.360 There's another menu option that was the same thing for 242 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.360 China and the USSR and war's unpacked. There's another menu 243 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.360 option that was the reverse. There's another one that was 244 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.039 just strictly counterfeit, strictly counterforce, no counter value. A lot 245 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:11.559 of this came from the fact they were talking about 246 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.600 a moment ago about satellites. Okay, until about nineteen eighty 247 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.440 or like nineteen seventy nineteen eighty, US satellites that would 248 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:27.039 that would provide data on the basing location of enemy forces. 249 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:30.159 There were always several weeks out of date because these 250 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:35.960 satellite to take their pictures, the little film would be 251 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.519 deposited a canister that cancer would fall to earth and 252 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.360 be recovered from the ocean. It would be retrieved, developed 253 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.399 and analyzed. So somebody were talking about months out of 254 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.759 date information. And one of the things that Soviets did, 255 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.960 which was kind of cunning in its simplicity, rather than 256 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:57.879 a veiling their land based ICBMs and to the super 257 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.360 hardened structures, they put them on trucks and mobile launch vehicles. 258 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.279 Like everybody's seeing the footage, I mean, at least if 259 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.679 you're a kid like when I was, you know, there'd 260 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:10.240 be these ominous as hell. Uh uh, they'd be this 261 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.600 ominous A little footage from the Moscow military parades, these 262 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:18.080 SS nineteen, these huge ICBMs on these trucks, you know 263 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.720 literally okay, they were they moving them around every single day, 264 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.120 you know. Uh. And that the spoof uh, the spoof 265 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.159 enemy targeting. And there's like the totally crazy stuff like 266 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.360 by the by the mid eighties NSA satellites and d 267 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.360 I satellites, they were photographing the soil and the Soviet 268 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.679 Union and East Germany. Uh to detect tracks from these 269 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:42.679 vehicles because based on their depth, you could tell if 270 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.879 the payload with some you know, with something of the 271 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.759 wave in SS nineteen or not. Like it's totally insane, 272 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:50.240 like not insane as and stupid or bad like, but 273 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.279 like totally insane, like the amount of work and and 274 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.679 like man hours that went into this, you know, uh, 275 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.120 people can't even can see with somebody today. But so 276 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.279 what Carter and Odom decided was there was another thing 277 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.359 too that was disturbing what the SIOP and the entire 278 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:12.440 the entire response plan. It was that by the time, 279 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.240 by the state of technology of nineteen seventy nine, it 280 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.480 was just accepted that in the event of a bolt 281 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:23.680 from the Blue assault or an unforeseen escalation of conventional 282 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:27.519 war wherein you know, the enemy, the enemy just you know, 283 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.039 goes on in you know, escalates the counter value nuclear assault, 284 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.039 it was just accepted that the president would be dead 285 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.519 and all civilian decision makers would be dead. So the 286 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.759 only people who would be able to manage the response 287 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:44.880 would be strategic air Command based as they were in 288 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.880 a super hard in places like Sheyan Mountain as well 289 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.640 as in the looking Glass aircraft that was the airborne 290 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:56.440 command post. That's really disturbing. It's also damn when constitutional 291 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:58.880 you can't craft a war plan and be with an 292 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.559 article be parameters. That's says, well, the president's gonna die, 293 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.920 so you know general powers or general to may or 294 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.319 general so and so he's not that de facto president, 295 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.200 you know, he's he's he's lord high executioner, and that 296 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.599 he's totally in control of the strategic nuclear forces. But 297 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.240 also he's just like the reigning like government official who's 298 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.079 going to survive, so it all comes down to him. 299 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:23.039 That's a very dangerous situation. Among other things, and also 300 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.519 like I said, patently, and Gon's a divisional. Carter said, 301 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:29.240 that's not acceptable. So what Carter did was he ordered 302 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:37.000 Owe him to draft a a comprehensive response plan. Basically, 303 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.519 bring the SIOP up to speed, account for deeper parodies, 304 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.319 account for up to the moment intelligence that could be 305 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.799 gleaned from you know, the then contemporary satellite systems that 306 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:52.519 would allow for h you know, instantaneous retargeting as needed 307 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.920 and things like this. Carter demanded that there be that 308 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.960 part of this plan include designated civilian national command authorities. 309 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.279 You know, basically the president and his cabinet would all 310 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.240 be issued these ID cards that all had a code, okay, 311 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.559 and the code would constantly change. But these men and 312 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.039 a handful of women are in the cabinet, the executive cabinet, 313 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:15.319 they have to every day, they'd have to report on 314 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.200 their whereabouts and if they left the ad Distion of Columbia, 315 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:20.400 they have to report like every hour as to where 316 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.640 they were. So they and there was a series of 317 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.880 military bases and hardness structures that they would be designated 318 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.000 to travel to wherever they were an event of war. 319 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.039 So basically, long story short, a system was put into place. 320 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.880 This was not completed until about ninety eighty forty five, 321 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.720 but the system was in place where in there was 322 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.000 no way that every civilian mansional command authority would be killed. Okay, 323 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:45.799 there would always be someone who could manage the war 324 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.359 on behalf of the executive and the civilian leadership. Okay, 325 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:53.440 there's other things too, But what this basically what this 326 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.559 all came down, you're taken together. This meant that, owing 327 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.680 to the technology of the time and then the evolving 328 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:05.640 state of warfare, command and control, uh, smart munitions, everything else, 329 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.640 it became America was planning to in event of nuclear war, 330 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:17.240 to fight and win a nuclear war. This caused I'll 331 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.440 get the consternation from people who didn't really understand deeper parodies, 332 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:23.480 even some people who should have. You know, people had 333 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.400 this ongoing kind of delusion that d MAD was one 334 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.920 part kind of talking point, one part kind of in 335 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.920 joke of within the nuclear fraternity in the earliest days. 336 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.200 Mutually assured destruction is not literally mean the end of everything. 337 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:42.039 Assured destruction is a victory metric and strategic nuclear warfare. 338 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:44.799 It's the point at which an enemy society can no 339 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.640 longer reconstitute the wage war it's basically the point the 340 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.559 attrition point at which you kill an enemy society, which 341 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.559 is a horrific metric because in the case of the 342 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.599 Soviet Union or America as a nineteen seventy is that 343 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.720 entailed about seventy or eighty million people. Okay, But this 344 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:02.599 idea that the only reason nuclear weapons exists is to 345 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.359 make sure they're never used like that, that's an absurdity. 346 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.920 And it's also it just wasn't by the nineteen seventies. 347 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:15.480 The nineteen seventies, you had you had multiple independently targeted 348 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.240 re entry vehicles, you had decoys, you have ways to 349 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.039 spoof early warning radar, you had hypersonic missile platforms that 350 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.839 that uh that that that wouldn't you know that that 351 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.039 didn't that didn't even travel on ballistic trajectory. Like it 352 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.680 was totally obsolescent. And uh, as William Otem said, he said, 353 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.720 look uh he said at the time, and he read it, 354 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.599 he read it. Reiterated later to one of his biographers, 355 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.559 He's like, I had an obligation that if America was 356 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.599 attaged with nuclear weapons, I had an obligation, you know, 357 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.680 in contro with the president, to fight and win a 358 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:57.559 nuclear war. And he's absolutely right with the other kind 359 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.240 of perverse feature of mad and that kind of whole 360 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.720 ethos it's like I'm obligated to commit suicide and so 361 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.200 it was like, you know, eighty million other people because oh, 362 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.720 we failed in our effort to maintain peace to the 363 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.119 balance of terror. Like it's there's something crazy about it, 364 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:15.720 but that's uh, that's basically what ushered in the final 365 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:22.880 phase of the Cold War. Now I want to fast 366 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:28.279 forward a bit to, uh, what exactly happened when, uh, 367 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.519 it became clear that not just cracks in the edifice 368 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:36.160 of the Soviet Empire emerging, but that there was a 369 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:43.119 genuine structural crisis underway. And part of our this developed, oh, 370 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:47.319 is the personalities quite literally of George Herbert Walker Bush 371 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.240 and Mikhail Gorbachew. Now, mister Bush, I've got to drop 372 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.480 some biographical biographical background on Bush if it was to 373 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:58.920 make any sense. I'm not trying to bore anybody. Bush 374 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:03.079 was a very dynamic guy, frankly, and he's not a 375 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.799 well loved individual, and that's fine. I'm not saying people 376 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:07.880 should like Bush it and like morally or think that, 377 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:09.640 you know, he was like a good man or something, 378 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:14.240 but he had an incredibly in depth understanding of the 379 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:18.240 nuances of the strategic balance under the Cold War. But 380 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.079 he was head of the CIA in nineteen seventy four 381 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:34.799 when something very controversial happened see the US. As I 382 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:36.480 made the point before and the Rady in context, the 383 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.680 CIA really lost its cachet in the sixties and subsequently 384 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.000 with the Gates hearings. And it wasn't just that people 385 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.160 were morally outraged by things like the Phoenix program, which 386 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:50.039 they put squarely on the shoulders of CIA. And when 387 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.680 really kind of responsibility if you want to look at 388 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.240 that way, if you do this as a great evil 389 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.839 kind of arrested equally with Army intelligence and mcavee, SAG 390 00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:01.079 the Pentagon itself. But you know, one of the reasons 391 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.319 this is misplaced and people that like CIA is kind 392 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.480 of the the seat of of of deep state power, 393 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:12.119 it's really not. And it was really really low by 394 00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:17.160 a lot of very hawkish Cold warriors. So something happened 395 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.839 in nineteen seventy four. There's something of this day that 396 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:27.079 is that is corralled by UH the intelligence services called 397 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:30.480 the National Intelligence Estimate. It's it's become kind of meaningless 398 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:34.039 now because intelligence and the whole all intelligence game is 399 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.519 totally different today. And we could do an episode on 400 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:39.920 that if if anybody's interested, but I'm not gonna deep 401 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.119 dive into that because that's just too much kind of 402 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:47.599 collateral stuff. But the UH, it was the belief of 403 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.400 UH everybody from you know, kind of hawkish senators and congressmen, 404 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.279 you know, to Pentagon types, two guys in army intelligence, 405 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.920 you know, to UH, to UH, to round Reagan himself, 406 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.599 who you know, as early as as as the mid seventies, 407 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.920 you know, had his eyes on a White House bid. 408 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.759 You know, the believes that the CIA was not feeding 409 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.240 they were not feeding good data to UH, to those 410 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.759 to whom they were accountable, civilian or military. The claim 411 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.759 was that they were consistently underestimating Soviet capabilities as well 412 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.559 as just kind of internal dynamics from that so within 413 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.000 the Soviet Union, relating to the leadership cast, as well 414 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:32.160 as relating to probable decisions that the Soviets would make 415 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.759 and when confronted with with with with crises, with crises 416 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:40.079 both of man and without their sphere of influence. So 417 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.400 it was proposed that what was called Team B be 418 00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:48.960 corralled as a competitive analysis exercise. Now, what was the 419 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.240 mandate of quote unque Team b Uh? There it was 420 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.960 commissioned to aggregate and analyze data from diverse sources basically 421 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:01.359 any available intelligence sources that were then relied upon, Okay, 422 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.440 to judge the accuracy, comprehensive nance the predictive value of 423 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:13.119 the national intelligence estimate of the preceding several years. Okay, Now, 424 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.680 the folks at Team be it was sixteen experts total, 425 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:20.279 and I'll get into who those men were in just 426 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:25.799 a minute. They were divided into three teams, okay, or yeah, 427 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:31.480 teams or classes if you will. One of them was 428 00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:36.599 to study specifically low altitude Soviet air defense capabilities, which 429 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.079 again I don't want to bore anybody, but this relates 430 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:47.279 to things uh you know, UH stealth technology didn't exist yet, 431 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:49.359 but it was understood that this was in the wings 432 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.119 and even were it not, platforms like the like what 433 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:56.440 became the B one bomber. H. You know. The idea 434 00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:00.559 was that you can fly below conventional radar strikes super 435 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:06.480 harden targets with uh with very very heavy uh nuclear weapons. 436 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:10.000 Uh you know, this most effective way to knock knock 437 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:14.720 out uh these counterforce targets. So even even though it 438 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:17.920 seems like overly specific and esoteric, I mean, that's that's 439 00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:20.640 why this was such and such a priority. Okay, the 440 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.440 study of low effect that those and capabilities of low 441 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.000 altitudes pesically low altitude Soviet there def it's capabilities in 442 00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:31.799 places like Moscow, in places like Kazakhstan. Okay. Another team 443 00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:34.920 was a study the accuracy of land based Soviet and 444 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:40.079 more so packed ICBMs. Okay, the circular error probable. Traditionally, 445 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:45.079 the Soviets larded their their launch vehicles and warheads that 446 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:49.960 had absolutely massive throw weight. So even if they lost 447 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.440 a substantial amount of them, you know, it's ah to 448 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:57.839 ABM technology. Those that hit would would would be absolutely devastating. 449 00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:01.279 That's kind of how they resolve the you know the issue. 450 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:03.440 I mean America at every different Amora's ethos kind of 451 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.880 the opposite. Remember's idea was eventually, you know, to create 452 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:11.319 basically smart munitions uh on strategic play in in in 453 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.640 the strategic arsenal and pepper the target area with with 454 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.799 sub megaton warheads, which which is far far more devastating 455 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:24.680 than one massive uh UH device. For reasons I don't 456 00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:26.920 fully understand. I'm sure physics guys could like shift some 457 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:31.279 light on. And finally, and most importantly, the third, you 458 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:35.880 know team, within Team B, there were always to study 459 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:42.279 Soviets strategic priorities and how this interface with policy orientation. Basically, 460 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.920 what's the Soviets the Soviet what's the Soviet doctrin on 461 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:50.000 nuclear war? Like when would they truly escalate? And beyond 462 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:53.920 that in more and more kind of global figuratively little 463 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:56.920 terms like what is their grand strategy? Like how does 464 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.359 the Soviet Union aim to increase its power in this 465 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:06.000 kind of uncertain epoch that we're entering now. Who was 466 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:07.640 on this team and you're gona understand, You're going to 467 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.160 understand why I made a big deal about Bush and 468 00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:15.960 Uh and Uh like Bush the man in personality, This 469 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:20.400 team was headed by Richard Pipes Uh. It included Uh, 470 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:26.079 Daniel Graham, William Van Cleeve, uh foy D Kohler, Seymour Weiss, 471 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:31.359 Paul Wolfowitz, and Paul Knits, who'd been the creator of 472 00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:35.119 the Committee and the Present Danger in nineteen fifty, which 473 00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:37.920 over over time at various iterations, all of which basically 474 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.240 it's it's it's not really relevant now, but that was 475 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.160 always kind of the uh that that was always that 476 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.279 was that was GONDA, the that was the Plitable Action 477 00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.000 Committee of Cold War hawks. Okay. Now, if you notice 478 00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.200 from that list that has ticked off these like the 479 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:55.039 Fathers and neo Conservatism, not philosophically but in policy terms, 480 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.799 that is not an accident, okay. And these guys basically 481 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:00.920 were saying, well, Busch's CIA is totally competence and they 482 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:08.240 do not know what they're doing. Okay. And uh. Thus, 483 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.920 when Bush was brought on board as Reagan's VP, Reagan 484 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.000 was surrounded with neo conservatives as advisors. And I would 485 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.720 go as far as to argue people like Oliver North, 486 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:27.319 people like Poindexter, people like l. Hag who didn't last 487 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:30.200 long in Middle these guys were ultra hawkish, but they 488 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.599 were not Innoka. And so however, Neocon's very much had 489 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.680 Reagan's ear, and Reagan himself is something of a Neocon. Okay, 490 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:39.880 he was in He was a Roosevelt new dealer who 491 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:41.880 you know, had a kind of Sall and the Road 492 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:47.160 in Damascus moment in the UH in the post war years. Okay, Uh, 493 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.799 I mean that's a whole another issue. But so Bush 494 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:54.599 was basically the company man who who was Reagan's press 495 00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.160 admission of the White House, and Bush and Reagan did 496 00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:02.680 not like each other. And when Bush found himself elected president, 497 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:09.559 he was surrounded by men, uh who had gone on 498 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:14.119 to very story and powerful roles in a policy planning 499 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.519 corners and the national security apparatus, who were very, very 500 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:21.839 hostile to his worldview and who did not view him 501 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:27.400 as particularly competent. Okay, Bush tried to insulate himself with 502 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.599 with with his own loyalists, and I think he did 503 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:32.759 that in large measure. You know, people like Baker, people 504 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.440 like Scowcroft. He's kind of a complicated figure in terms 505 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.480 of his values. He had Neo Connage tendencies. But first 506 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:47.599 and foremance he was loyal to Bush. And uh when 507 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:54.079 Bush took office, you know, uh February nineteen eighty nine. Again, 508 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.720 not only was this kind of TV faction that would 509 00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.200 much later he become kind of known to the public 510 00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.880 as you know, the Neocon Cabal, some aspect of it 511 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.119 at least. Uh. Not only were they insinuated very much 512 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:11.079 into the into the national security apparatus, but you know, 513 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.720 certain expectations have been raised by Reagan. You know, Reagan 514 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:22.759 and Gorbachev. Uh had this tremendous report and that was legit, 515 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:27.000 That was that was real. That wasn't. Bush found the 516 00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:31.960 speed of things very alarming. A few months before Bush 517 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:37.880 took uh before inauguration day, Bush actually tad Henry Kissinger, 518 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:44.640 and he asked him to contact Gorbachev's and intermediary. Kissinger 519 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:50.960 secretly traveled to Moscow and he met with Gorbachev and 520 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.839 Kissinger explained as ordered that there would not be a 521 00:32:54.839 --> 00:33:01.000 steamless transition of administrations from Reagan to Bush. And Groza 522 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:02.759 was kind of put out by this as well as 523 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:07.799 taken aback, you know, and Garbachhaw said, well, why what 524 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:13.480 Kisnder articulated was exactly what Bush instructed him to. He said, Look, 525 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.720 there's a danger here of a structural and political nature. 526 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:20.960 You know, a reckless US president could totally derail the 527 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.039 transition away from communism. You know, there could be a 528 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.640 coup of hardliners, which there was, and we'll get into that, 529 00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:30.359 but that was not until what it appeared. Uh, there 530 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:32.839 could be uh there gonna be open civil war between 531 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:36.319 the nationalities, and that did happen in some theaters. Uh, 532 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:41.200 there could be a complete Weimar style collapse, which also 533 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:46.160 did happen to some degree. What Kissinger relayed in essence 534 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.039 was Bush had told him, you know, an American president 535 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:51.519 could be much to derail the transition away from communam, 536 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.279 but could do little to grease the skids, UH to 537 00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.200 the facility of the projects more rapidly. Now to understand 538 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:01.559 what Bush's vision was, it was a lot like Nixon's. 539 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:05.319 After Nixon left office, Now, as you probably remember about 540 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:08.679 my age, he Nixon kind of got a second lease 541 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:13.320 on life by the mid late mid to late nineteen eighties. 542 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.599 He wrote some very good books on the strategic situation. 543 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:20.599 He wrote a lot about the Cold War, which frankly 544 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:24.639 was Nixon's like raison detrop and you know, and even 545 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.239 he was even tapped by CNN during the Gulf War 546 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:31.639 like not infrequently show it before he died. But Nixon 547 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.960 and Bush, their idea was this. Their idea was that 548 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:37.960 we can preserve the Soviet Union as some kind of 549 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.239 benign structure, at least for the time being. You know, 550 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.840 what what has to be paramount is total nuclear disarmament 551 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:52.519 and UH and then gradual demobilization of conventional forces until 552 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.199 such that they're drawn down to basically nothing more than 553 00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.199 the kind of Weimar style, you know, constabulary force to 554 00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:02.119 manage internal life or ethnic conflict or things like this. 555 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:05.880 In Bush's case, it was very much a kind of 556 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.360 it was very much kind of the vision of Roosevelt 557 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.920 that you know, the United States and the Soviet Union 558 00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:13.760 would kind of govern the planet literally with you know, 559 00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:17.079 Moscow as a junior partner, but that you know, this 560 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:20.159 massively federated structure that took up literally one sixth of 561 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.119 the earth should remain intact because the alternative is just 562 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:30.679 too unpredictable and uh, it seems unrealistic to us, I 563 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:33.159 mean regard regardless of the merit of such things on 564 00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.159 their own terms or such concepts with how you've token 565 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.800 the art. There's a singular fixation among policy planners after 566 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:46.280 Nuremberg of at all costs is preventing armed conflict. And 567 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.679 if you look at government as some kind of progressive 568 00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:52.320 instrumentality in in live looking as as either a necessary 569 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:55.440 evil or as a means by which you know, the 570 00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:59.840 posterity and historical mission of a people is preserved, you 571 00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:06.760 kind of view this as the zenith of government. So 572 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:08.639 the Bush Faction, if you want to call it, that 573 00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:14.920 contra the neo kon or pronoun faction. This was their vision. Okay. 574 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.639 In contrast, the guys who had staff Team B and 575 00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:22.960 who would now become these gott uber hawks in sinuated 576 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:26.840 into various roles. They viewed the Soviet Union as quite 577 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:29.920 literally evil. They like, that was not i probole, That's 578 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:31.800 the way they looked at it. Some of this was 579 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.159 some of this was ethno sectarium going to the background 580 00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.079 of a lot of these men. Some of it was 581 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.559 was not. It was just you know, guys who are 582 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.480 not of that particular background, but who who just viewed 583 00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:46.519 it as evil incarnate. So their idea was it had 584 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.119 to be destroyed. Now, you know, if we destroy the 585 00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.559 Soviet Union by open warfare, so be it. If that's 586 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:56.320 what you know, God or or or a fortuna or 587 00:36:56.360 --> 00:37:00.239 whatever ordains. Or if we destroy it, you know, by 588 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:03.880 by dismantling it through you know, a detonation strategy of 589 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:06.639 you know, stirring up the nationalities against against against Mother 590 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.119 Russia and against each other. You know, uh, if if 591 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.480 we if we destroy it by you know, imposing a 592 00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:15.360 kind of looting operation on it that that strips of 593 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.760 its natural wealth, strips it of its natural resources and 594 00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:23.320 national wealth and control of such commodities they're in. You know, 595 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.800 we can just run your act prostrate and impotent. That 596 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:29.519 was the competing viewpoint. And this is not iperbole. These 597 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:33.880 these people spoke very openly. This Dick Cheney uh went 598 00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.960 on a record as saying quite literally quote fuck them. 599 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:40.079 They lost when confronted with, you know, the kind of 600 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.480 Bush Baker vision which seems incredibly reckless from metals to 601 00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:50.800 your politics. But this, uh, this said the uh, this 602 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.360 is the effect of really kind of really kind of 603 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:58.199 driving a wedge between Bush and GORBACHEWF. And this this was, uh, 604 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:03.760 this is exacerbated because one of uh when when one 605 00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:11.440 of Bush's first acts as president, he visited Poland. You know, 606 00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:14.559 in Poland was kind of ground zero of anti Soviet 607 00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:17.360 not just the anti Soviet sentiment, but of organized resistance, 608 00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:21.360 you know, like Valenca and the solidarity movement. Bush did 609 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.920 not like Valenza. It's I think part of that was 610 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.280 kind of inherent snobbery because Valentza was very much a proletarian. 611 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:32.000 I think bushvidiam is a rail rouser. What Bush did 612 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:35.679 was he met with General Geraldzelski. And again, if I'm 613 00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:38.400 butchering these names. I apologize every bed with that. I 614 00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:43.119 don't like any any Slavic guys or girls of listening, 615 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:45.760 like don't hesitate to correct me in the comments or whatever. 616 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.840 But I'm not good with these pronunciations. But gerald Zelski 617 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.880 was an interesting guy. Uh. He was the only military 618 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.639 man who was a chief of state of a warsaw 619 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:58.400 pet state, which is interesting to me at least because 620 00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.480 tone deaf is. The Soviets were like as bad as 621 00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:07.039 their optics were. Uh, they realized in some basic way 622 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:09.519 that they couldn't just install you know these like military 623 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:15.840 uh strong men in the several satellite states. But Poland, 624 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.559 this is I mean, Poland was under martial law from 625 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:22.960 from nineteen eighty eighty one onward. But Geraldzelski was a 626 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:26.159 tragic guy. You know. He he looked ominous because it 627 00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.480 was in uniform and he'd wear these really dark sunglasses. 628 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.239 Jeraldzelski's eyes were ruined by snow blindness. He was a 629 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:34.000 he was a Polish and he was he was he 630 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.800 was a Polish national of noble birth when the Soviets 631 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.480 invaded eastern Poland in nineteen thirty nine, owing to his 632 00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.920 parentage and and pedigree. He was sent to a gulag 633 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:49.079 and uh spent years at hard labor and uh the 634 00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:53.920 glare off the snow ruined his eyes. But he you know, 635 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:56.960 was telling too that he was that the Soviets had 636 00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.199 to rely on him. You know that there really really 637 00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.559 there there were no there were no dedicated Polish Communists, 638 00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:04.519 you know, it was it was more of a the 639 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.000 the pole Communists. Poland was more of a contribance even 640 00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.039 than the D d R or any or anything else 641 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:15.119 within the Warsaw deck structure, which is interesting. But Bush 642 00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.280 and Geraldzelsky had a certain rapport, and Bush went as 643 00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:23.119 far as to convinced gerald Zelski to stand for president 644 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:28.280 when uh, when Poland UH had their first multi party election. 645 00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:33.800 And Bush was criticized roundly and uniformly for that. But 646 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:39.719 his notion was, uh that you know, Gerlzelski, once uh, 647 00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:43.559 the once the once Moscow's boot is no longer on 648 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:47.480 the neck of the Polish nation figuratively and literally. A 649 00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:50.360 man like Gerlzelski can really rise to the occasion. And 650 00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:54.719 I understand that even if that's not realistic in context. 651 00:40:56.199 --> 00:41:00.800 But this was Bush's notion, Okay, and it was his defense. 652 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:06.079 What he said later in his own words, were he 653 00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:08.000 wasn't gonna go to he wasn't going to visit the 654 00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:11.599 Eastern Block and go on thumping his chest and trying 655 00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.719 to stick it to the Soviets that their system was crumbling. 656 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:19.079 And he also would loud really large over US policy, 657 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.760 you know, in nineteen fifty three, in nineteen fifty six, 658 00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:28.079 in ninety sixty eight, the Soviets these were and square 659 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:33.519 level UH interventions or and crackdowns on the people, first 660 00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:39.880 in East Germany, then in Hungary, then Czechoslovakia. There was 661 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:44.679 an understanding among among in not just Bush, but among 662 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.440 you know, people on kind of both sides of the 663 00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.880 divide in terms of how to proceed with the situation 664 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:54.280 developing in the East, that if we push this too 665 00:41:54.440 --> 00:41:57.960 hard or get too greedy in terms of demanding results 666 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.079 and demanding too much too soon, and we we may 667 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:03.800 we may see you know, some kind of we may 668 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:07.039 see some kind of stalin his backlash and and UH 669 00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:10.159 a full scale invasion of Poland then and and it 670 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:13.719 would be a massacre. So I'm not I'm not sitting 671 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:15.760 here saying again that people should like it was forty 672 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:17.719 one or should like share that view, but I'm just 673 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:20.480 trying to give a balanced perspective. And it was his 674 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.199 view was not born of some kind of Simpleton's delusion, 675 00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:30.400 even if it was not realistic. But what, uh, what 676 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:36.199 ultimately did happen was, uh, it was very interesting and 677 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:44.280 really conspiratorial, kind of figuratively and literally. And again we're 678 00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:46.719 kind of gonna come back to the CIA and it's incompetence. 679 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:51.079 And I know people think I overstate this, but consider 680 00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:56.199 this William Crowe. He was another general who was gonna 681 00:42:57.079 --> 00:42:59.119 he would have been considered something like a minister without 682 00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:03.000 portfolio served a European government. But he was close to 683 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.800 Bush forty one and Baker and spoke Croft and that 684 00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:11.239 whole coterie. He said, the CIA literally in mid nineteen 685 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.280 eighty nine, he said there was still there were still 686 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:16.239 showing dispatches that spoke about the USSR as if it 687 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:20.119 was twenty years earlier. They were claiming that Gorbachev was 688 00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:23.320 simply a biting the bresident doctrine. But you know, he 689 00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.000 was reluctant to deploy force because he was trying to 690 00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:29.239 lull the West into a false sense of security. It's 691 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.199 like they were in in In Crow's words, he said, 692 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:34.199 it says if the CIA didn't never see the news. 693 00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:36.440 He said it was as if like they'd take just 694 00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:40.079 kind of official dispatches from East Berlin or Moscow kind 695 00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:42.840 of knock a percentage off, and the credibility you then 696 00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:46.039 released that is basically you know fat you know, oh 697 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.320 the East Berlin says that you know, the that the 698 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.920 regime of Strowger than ever that must be true, or 699 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.960 you know, the like like Grochev's the General secretary and 700 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.480 he says there's gonna be no, you know, they're not 701 00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:57.960 gonna they're not gonna drop the planet economy and the 702 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.559 Soviet Union will remain. So that's that's the fact. I mean, 703 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.960 I'm not I'm not using that probably that this this 704 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:06.119 was literally what they were saying. And I mean that 705 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:09.960 anybody again thinks the CIA is like the seat of 706 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:13.239 of shadow of government or the intelligence community has got 707 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:19.360 to consider that Defense intelligence really, I mean not forget 708 00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.119 the tangent, but but defense intelligence, the d i A. 709 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.880 They really they really got of became the guts of 710 00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:28.239 US intelligence in a basic way. Okay them the n 711 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:32.679 s A and you know, uh a lot of quasi 712 00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:36.440 private uh entities that you know, our contract and things 713 00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:43.480 like that. But the as everybody knows, uh, the great 714 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:48.719 foil to gorbich Off is Yelston. But Yelton's the sentence. 715 00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.559 Yelton was not this kind of great democratizer. I mean 716 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:57.159 he he's viewed that way because uh, you know he 717 00:44:57.400 --> 00:44:59.719 uh he was kind of the king of the referendum. 718 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:05.199 But you know it's not people have this idea, I 719 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:09.280 think because it's byzantine literally, but also like memories are short, 720 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.199 I mean, including my own. I'm not saying I'm like 721 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.239 above this or something. People seem to remember this as 722 00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.519 you know, there was a you know, the Soviet Union 723 00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:22.239 finally held elections, Yelton beat Gorbachev, and then there was 724 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:24.920 some kind of referendum to dismantle the Soviet Union. Like 725 00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:29.639 that's not what happened when Yelson seized the power. It's 726 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:32.639 what Gorbachev was, you know, kidnapped by the koup lotters. 727 00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:39.559 Yelton presieded to raise to the Russian White House declare 728 00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:42.679 himself for all practical purposes President of the Russian Federation. 729 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:48.039 Upon ascending to that role, and I mean there was 730 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:52.000 a referendum insinuating him into that role, he declared the 731 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:56.480 Soviet Union to be abolished. So the office is Gorbachev 732 00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:00.599 held's a General Secretary of the Communist Party ceased to 733 00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:07.320 hold any meaning because the entity that Gorbachev held that 734 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:11.079 office in was was abolished by Dick Todd, which is 735 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:17.159 very strange. Now, who are Yeltsin's backers. There's a combination 736 00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:20.719 of kind of radical reformers, you know, these uh, these 737 00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:26.400 kind of uh this kind of wild West capitalist types 738 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:30.000 who kind of saw the looming anarchy as a as 739 00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:34.280 as opportunities for great proper potential. But it was also 740 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:39.159 a lot of stalin As hardliners who uh hated gorbachew 741 00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:41.719 Now why did they back Yelson? I mean the kind 742 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:43.960 of conventional wisdom as well. They just wanted power in 743 00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:46.280 the new regime. I don't know if it's that simple, man. 744 00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:51.639 I think some of them thought that Yelson would rook Garbicheff. Yeah, 745 00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:53.280 they have to settle for a rumpt state of just 746 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.880 you know, Russia basically. But I think they thought that 747 00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:58.360 Yelton was just gonna return things to the status quo 748 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.760 after that. But then he didn't, And why didn't he 749 00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:04.480 do that? I think he was basically bought off by 750 00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:09.719 you know Team B the Oconn faction, like fearatively and 751 00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:13.679 literally bought off. I can't prove that with receipts, but 752 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:17.599 I I've thought about this a lot, I've studied a lot, 753 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:20.360 and I've read a lot of direct testimony in the 754 00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:27.039 in the epoch, I I think that's what happened. Now. Also, 755 00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:32.840 you know, Putin became Yelton's successor, and Putin had a 756 00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:36.320 variety of roles, like some some more prestigious than others, 757 00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:38.880 and at certain junctures he was sidelined. I mean that 758 00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:44.159 never in In in some disgraceful way. But the fact 759 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.719 that Putin himself and Putin is not some hardliner, but 760 00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:51.039 he has a product in the old system. Okay, if 761 00:47:51.159 --> 00:47:54.920 yelt didn't really was this kind of oren't liberal. I'm 762 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:56.960 using it in these terms, in the terms of the 763 00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.880 regime employs them. I don't mean that he that's what 764 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.480 he actually is. But if he also has got this 765 00:48:01.639 --> 00:48:05.599 arch capitalist or former you know, neoliberal ideologue, like he 766 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.559 would not have had men like Provement in his orbit. 767 00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:10.199 He would not have he would have had him take 768 00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:11.559 he would not have made him taken up a shot 769 00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.679 or something but these guys would have been pensioned off 770 00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:19.320 and and and sent far away from from Moscow furgively 771 00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:23.239 and literally. But again I'm not I don't speak Russian 772 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.760 or read it, and I'm not some kind of expert 773 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.239 on the Russian people, their culture or the Soviet Union. 774 00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:39.320 But I am convinced that that's what that's what happened. It. Uh, 775 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:46.559 there's also something that people got to consider, the other 776 00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:50.559 kind of factor or constellation of factors that rooked and 777 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:54.320 pushed his vision. And uh, I don't want to go 778 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:57.559 off track, because this is its own topic that's very dense, 779 00:48:57.679 --> 00:48:59.960 but you know, the casting of Sloping on the Lilow 780 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:05.320 as this mass murdering nationalist extremists. He was the State 781 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.639 Department's guy, and he was the guy who was viewed 782 00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:11.239 as the moderate they could work with by Washington, and 783 00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:14.559 Boyce very much wanted to keep you with Slavia together. 784 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:20.639 What happened was Helmut Cole, who I think was about 785 00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:25.360 as as nationalists as any is any chance that the 786 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:29.719 Buddhist Republic could be or can be. When two Jamon's 787 00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:33.039 Croatian it cleared independence, Cole recognized them immediately, and then 788 00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:35.679 the die was cast. There was gonna be war in 789 00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:41.320 the Balkans, and that was key to forming contemporary identities. 790 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:45.800 That's why, in a very proximate way, and I'm sen directly, 791 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:52.719 the Slavic Orthodox identity became paramount again. That's why Bosniaks 792 00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:57.800 became very Maslem. Again. There's a whole lot of a 793 00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:01.840 national soldialist inclined German guys who like Ingo Hasselbach was. 794 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:04.480 He was not an attractive guy, but he was a 795 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.320 skin ahead and he was he was very involved in 796 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.480 in in the in the right wing and in the DDR. 797 00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:13.679 You know, he and his people recruited a bunch of 798 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.880 Germans to go fight for Croatia. And this was very real. 799 00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:19.960 There's not some This was not some Ukraine kind of 800 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.639 situation of guys, you know, kind of pretending to be 801 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:26.639 things they're not and and strange kind of propagandasm really 802 00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:29.840 makes sense like this, this really was, uh a kind 803 00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.760 of a kind of return to to to Europe's identitarian 804 00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:41.679 status quo. Now in the wake of this, uh, you know, 805 00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:45.519 obviously the view that run out was not that won out, 806 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:48.119 was not the Bush forty one view. And you know, 807 00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:50.800 the what was also in my opinion kind of Nixon view. 808 00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:55.159 Although he had Bush part of the ways and key issues, 809 00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:59.840 what went out was the Neo con view. Literally, and 810 00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:02.320 what you're seeing Ukraine is the culmination of this kind 811 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:06.800 of thirty year effort of the detonation strategy of radicalizing 812 00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:10.559 the nationalities. Like that's what it is. It also has 813 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.480 to do with preventing Europe from a from a you know, 814 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:21.039 becoming at all autonomous, because a Russian German concord is 815 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.639 is really what is the path that's superpowered them? Okay, 816 00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:28.119 but and I mean no, I mean ron there's many 817 00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:30.840 many guys in Washington who don't care about Ukraine or Russia, 818 00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:35.079 and that's their notion. However, the faction we're talking about, 819 00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:38.000 they very very much have an ancestral hatred of Russia 820 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:42.320 and they very very much abide this idea that you know, 821 00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:46.760 the structures rotten, it should be destroyed. If we can 822 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:50.159 utilize Ukraine as a kind of torpedo, so be it. 823 00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:54.679 You know, if we can any way we can, any 824 00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:57.960 way we can, we can facilitate the real detonation on 825 00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:01.719 on the frontier. We want to do it. Uh, it's 826 00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.440 really that simple. But that's I know, it seems like 827 00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:08.760 I jumped around a lot, but these are the key 828 00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:13.239 developments to understanding what happened. And like I said, next time, 829 00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:17.760 we'll we'll start out with the Berlin Airlift. I think 830 00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:19.880 that's a good starting point because, as I guess there, 831 00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:21.840 that have to be the start of the Cold War, Okay, 832 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:25.559 and from there we'll go in like linear terms. But 833 00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:28.039 I thought that this was important. I hope I didn't 834 00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.239 bore anybody or put anybody off by doing it that way. 835 00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:35.880 But that's, uh, that's I think we're all stop for now. 836 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.199 Well, let me let me ask you a question. Yeah, 837 00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:44.079 you'll keep going, You'll keep going a little bit. What 838 00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.440 would happened if Ducacus would have got elected in nineteen 839 00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:46.840 eighty eight. 840 00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.920 That's a really interesting question. And it's interesting you raise 841 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.760 that because the other day on Twitter I was talking 842 00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:58.039 to some of the fellas about the fact that there 843 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:01.920 was an actual policy divide, like a real cleft, you know, 844 00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:06.239 between uh national security hawks and and people who thought 845 00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:10.719 that time could be preserved. Do Cougress was definitely from 846 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:13.679 the ladder tendency, and then it was held against him. 847 00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:16.800 You know, there's that famous people People think Caucuss is 848 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:19.360 kind of Howard Dean stream scream moment is when he 849 00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:21.159 was writing in that tank, like looking like an idiot 850 00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:23.719 with like a homon like the wrong way, you're trying to. 851 00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:26.119 Look like snooky. 852 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:30.039 Yeah, but I actually exerience kind of a badass though, 853 00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:33.679 like Stewie fights Threat Barren, like uh, Couress took like 854 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:36.519 a fucking jig off. But yeah, but he looked and 855 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:39.480 if even if Tocagass had been more of kind of 856 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:42.960 a like a like a manly like photogen a guy, 857 00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:45.519 it was so it was so contribed. It's him trying 858 00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:47.559 to look like you have tough on defense, gonna be 859 00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:49.920 in this tank, you know, you know, yeah, yeah, you know, 860 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.119 the hell with even but it's uh, but the Caucus's cabinet. 861 00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.440 I mean, I think Caucuss was uh. I think docungss 862 00:53:57.559 --> 00:53:59.679 was was a tackling dummy who was he was a 863 00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:02.840 four inclusion that that people wanted another Reagan term and 864 00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:05.000 they weren't gonna get that obviously. And Bush was the 865 00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:08.039 closest thing. And even though Bush was very very at 866 00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:10.320 odds with the Reagan and people associated them, I mean 867 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:12.079 just I mean, you know how voters are, especially in 868 00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:17.320 those days. Yeah, of course, yeah, any any even a 869 00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:19.400 guy like Mondale kind of an old kind of an 870 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:21.840 old line, more running the mill democratic than Kaye's kind 871 00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:23.480 of a weird nominee. You know. He was like like, 872 00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:25.039 I'm not being pressed, but he was. He was like 873 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:29.800 this ethnic politician, franky. Yeah, even a more traditional U 874 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:36.480 kind of Democrat, he would have had real problems, especially 875 00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:39.599 if at a hospital Congress. But it's also the U, 876 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:43.639 I do believe. And Bush made this point too. I mean, 877 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:47.440 despite everything I just said about Bush's Bush very very 878 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:50.880 very much believed in negotiating the end of the Soviet 879 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:53.559 negotiating with the Soviet unions that ended from position of 880 00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:59.039 very very profound strength, okay, And I think that was essential. 881 00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:04.480 I think it overla like a conciliatory executive who'd approached 882 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:06.880 the Soviet who'd approached kind of the failing Soviet Union 883 00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:10.639 as hey, what we want to re establish Theayton That 884 00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:13.079 could have been a game changer. Maybe one thing to 885 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:18.840 temb Coterie was right about. If they were right about anything. 886 00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:24.159 I think wolf Fords himself, I think, is the source 887 00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:26.039 of this and I agree with it, and I don't 888 00:55:26.239 --> 00:55:28.960 I say a wolf Witz at all. He said that 889 00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:32.440 Soviet Union by nineteen seventy four to seventy five, I 890 00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:34.760 was said of the Third World, nobody had any respect 891 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:37.880 from Marxist Leninism people in the Soviet Union. Their quality 892 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:40.199 of life was better than the Third World, but not 893 00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:43.400 by hell of a lot. Nobody believed that, you know, 894 00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:45.760 the Soviet Union was leading the world and the sciences 895 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:49.159 or something. All the Soviet Union had was arguably the 896 00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:52.599 world's mightiest military arguab with the mightiest army that ever existed. 897 00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.679 If the only thing, the only thing making you a 898 00:55:56.719 --> 00:56:00.400 superpower is your military and the fact you've got eight 899 00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:07.280 thousand uh nuclear weapons, that changes things. That means power 900 00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:12.960 projection becomes becomes overvalued. It means the entire discourse within 901 00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:17.599 the state apparatus kind of orbits around hard power. And 902 00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:22.599 that's very what happened North Korea today. Yeah, it's superpower scale. 903 00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:27.960 I mean that's and I the so this idea that 904 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.719 the Soviet Union was bent on world domination in a 905 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:34.599 very in a in a very concrete and brutal way. 906 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:38.079 I believe that the United State has been on world domination. Two. 907 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:40.159 But the United States had a way of subverting on 908 00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:42.599 societies other than you know, we're going to level you 909 00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:45.800 and decimate you and genocide you. I mean, America would 910 00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:47.599 do that too if they had to, but that wasn't 911 00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:52.599 just like the option of first recourse. And I have 912 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.280 no doubt. And Gorbio his memoirs made this point, if this, 913 00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:00.519 if every about every decade, okay, ninety fifty, in ninety 914 00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:04.280 sixty two, nine seventy three, and eighty three, the world 915 00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:07.400 came closer, very very close to nuclear war, and each 916 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:11.039 time arguably it was like even closer like the Cold War, 917 00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:13.719 and definitely continued. I mean, let's take continue to like 918 00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.719 the late nineties just even and so like by nineteen 919 00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.800 ninety five ninety six, you know, nuclear weapons are basically 920 00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:22.599 all now in space, you know, and it's okay, like 921 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:24.719 that was like a three minute warning time, you know, 922 00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:27.039 basically like the Soviets like blank, It's like, okay, we 923 00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:29.159 got to destroy them. I mean, like, what would happen 924 00:57:29.239 --> 00:57:33.480 then in a crisis, you know, or like it eventually 925 00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:35.840 it would have happened. That would mean the world would 926 00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:37.679 have ended. But there would have been probably forty million 927 00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.119 people dead or like one hundred million people dead, and 928 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:42.840 that would have changed everything. Man, that would have changed 929 00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:45.880 life on earth forever, like not in like horror movie terms, 930 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:50.000 but the terminator. But if like a hundred million people 931 00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:52.360 died in nuclear war, like the world would never be 932 00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:55.400 the same, you know. And it's in ways we can't 933 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.840 even imagine, you know, I mean think about that. It so, 934 00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:02.519 I mean one of the things that so one of 935 00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:06.800 the reasons the Soviet Union, even guys I think believe 936 00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:08.840 I know this, even guys who believe in the system, 937 00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:10.960 they knew they had to find a way out of 938 00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:14.440 the Cold War, Like they knew it. Because again, this 939 00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:18.920 technology cannot be controlled. And people think it's and I'm 940 00:58:18.920 --> 00:58:20.559 not just saying people are dumb or something. They just 941 00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:23.199 don't have a comparative basis. People think that something like 942 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:26.320 the Soviet Union of nineteen eighty five, it's not like 943 00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:27.960 you know, the office you work at, even of a 944 00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:30.639 big company of like fifty thousand people, Like, it's not 945 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:33.280 something like any one man or one hundred men or 946 00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:36.360 a thousand men can just control you know. It's like, 947 00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:39.360 once once the apparatus gets in motion towards kind of 948 00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:42.639 a nuclear war vector, that's just what it's going to happen, 949 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:45.519 you know. And I mean that that was what was happening, 950 00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:49.199 you know, and this was not some paradoig fantasy or something, 951 00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:53.239 you know. I mean, so that's one of the reasons. 952 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:55.320 I guess I'm kind of I've got kind of a 953 00:58:56.360 --> 00:58:58.079 I've got kind of a like like guys in the 954 00:58:58.159 --> 00:58:59.760 right set, you've got like a soft view of Bush, 955 00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:01.679 for one. I mean maybe I do. I don't know, 956 00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:05.360 but I mean whatever, I don't care what people think 957 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:09.360 about my takes on on on chief executives of history. 958 00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:14.519 But there was like what it is described didn't happen, okay, 959 00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:17.360 and some of that we owe to people like Bush. Okay. 960 00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:20.400 Uh yeah, the Cold Wars would have happened in the 961 00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:22.719 first place. You know, World War can not have happened, 962 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:25.039 but but it did happen. So that's where we were at. 963 00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:28.360 You gotta judge things in their epoch. So that's I realize. 964 00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:30.000 That's the name complete answer, the best the best I 965 00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:34.559 can do. That's a great question, thank you. Yeah. 966 00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:39.280 He I just remember them selling, oh he's from Massachusetts, 967 00:59:39.320 --> 00:59:41.159 and they tried to connect him to be like the 968 00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:43.280 next Kennedy or something like that. It was just. 969 00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:47.360 I mean Bush, you know, God loved Bush. But other 970 00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:49.800 than and Bush was actually a great commander in chief 971 00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:52.519 and the way he managed the Gulf War with with 972 00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:55.800 like like like a like a Prussian officer the highest 973 00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:58.639 caliber would okay. But other than that, I mean Bush 974 00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:00.280 was not a man and the people. I mean, that's 975 01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:02.519 why he got smoked in the three way race with 976 01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:06.000 Clinton and Parole. But I mean the fact that Bush 977 01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:08.760 was able to sweep the country against ducaucas It's like, look, man, 978 01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:10.920 it's like you're getting. If you're getting smoked by Bush, 979 01:00:11.880 --> 01:00:14.119 you know, it's like you've got you're not a viable candidate. 980 01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:17.639 See docs was a weird like a guy like greetor 981 01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:19.079 Scott Greer. He'd be a good guy to take that 982 01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:21.360 up with because like he, I mean, he knows like 983 01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:23.360 electoral politics like the back of his hands, Like I 984 01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:25.159 really don't. I mean I know the outcome, but it's 985 01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:27.760 I don't have like deep takes on that stuff generally, 986 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:29.920 But do Coucress was a weird He was a weird 987 01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:33.800 nominee man. He definitely was. He definitely was. 988 01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:37.800 I think that is gonna be a great first episode. 989 01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:40.480 Give your plugs and we'll end it. 990 01:00:41.239 --> 01:00:44.639 Yeah, then you pete. Uh. The main place people should 991 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.800 hit me up as h on my substick. It's real, 992 01:00:48.639 --> 01:00:53.960 real Thomas seven seven seven at substack dot com dot 993 01:00:54.039 --> 01:00:56.159 substack dot com. Sorry, you can find me on t 994 01:00:56.360 --> 01:01:00.760 gram Telegram at t dot emmy slash v number seven 995 01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:04.639 h seven seven seven. I bet on Twitter once again 996 01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:08.320 because Elon seems to not be laying the hammer down 997 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:10.239 on people. You know, for the record, man, like I've 998 01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:13.000 never actually violated Twitter in terms of service. I'm not 999 01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:15.199 just saying like I never have, you know, but I've 1000 01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:18.559 been banned like half a dozen times. But you can 1001 01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:26.480 find me there at Triskellian Jahad. The first t is 1002 01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:30.960 number seven, but I'll post it's posted up in my 1003 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:34.280 substack and stuff and just go there. And I mean, 1004 01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:35.880 for all I know, in like two days won't be 1005 01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:38.360 there anymore. So it's and I am launching the day 1006 01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:40.960 and YouTube channel. Please don't think I'm being a total flake. 1007 01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:42.880 I've just had a lot on my plate in terms 1008 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:46.480 of content and like other stuff. But I it is 1009 01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:48.880 moving forward. I got an announcement. I think people will 1010 01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:51.480 be happy about him. I'm debating the jfk assassination in 1011 01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:53.079 a few days with a guy that I got a 1012 01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:55.239 lot of respect for and he's actually a college professor 1013 01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:57.599 of the right kind. He's like a right wing history 1014 01:01:58.320 --> 01:01:59.880 but he does agree with me profound me so that 1015 01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:01.599 people will dig that. I'm going to do it on 1016 01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:03.639 a live stream, so well, I'll hit people to that. 1017 01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:06.039 And that's what I got. And thank you very much, Pete. 1018 01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:08.039 I really appreciate your hosting me. I really, I really 1019 01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:13.440 appreciate people watching and comment and stuff. I really mean that, 1020 01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:14.199 I'm not just being poor. 1021 01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:18.199 Well, I can't wait for until we go back to 1022 01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:23.440 the beginning because that's where the intrigue of that is. 1023 01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:27.719 Oh yeah, no, it's really yeah. Yeah, no, I'm very 1024 01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:30.840 excite man, and I'm very very I'm very stoked that 1025 01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:33.960 you you had had this notion for us to do 1026 01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:35.559 this series. So thank you very much again. 1027 01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:41.000 All right, thank you, take care of Thomas. Welcome everyone 1028 01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:46.280 back to the Pete Kenyonas Show. Got Thomas seven seven 1029 01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:49.559 seven here, and we're going to get into some stuff 1030 01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:52.559 not only about the Cold War, maybe we'll talk to 1031 01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:54.280 some current events. How are you doing, Thomas? 1032 01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:57.519 Very well, Thanks for hosting me again. Yeah, I was thinking, 1033 01:02:57.880 --> 01:03:00.960 I mean your point before we went why you were 1034 01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.280 talking about the election results, and I agree with you. 1035 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.039 I think that warrant mentioned, not just because the kind 1036 01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:10.239 of thing is important, but what's happening in Russia and 1037 01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:14.440 in Central Europe at present. I believe it's I believe 1038 01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:19.280 the current conflict cycle is resolving somewhat peaceably, if not ideally, 1039 01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:23.440 from you know, my own perspective, but I mean, it's 1040 01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:26.519 going to remain relevant for the foreseeable future. And this 1041 01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.000 is approximately caused by the Cold War. And if we're 1042 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.760 talking about anything of a foreign policy nature or anything 1043 01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:37.280 relating to the strategic situation as it stands in twenty 1044 01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:41.360 twenty two, where we're talking about phenomenon events and even 1045 01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:45.719 personages like the primary players are our people who who's 1046 01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:47.800 who can only be understood in the context of the 1047 01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:51.079 Cold War. And also some of the fellas on t 1048 01:03:51.239 --> 01:03:55.719 GRAM we're asking some questions about the topic, and we 1049 01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:58.079 can get into some of those two. I mean, there's 1050 01:03:58.079 --> 01:03:59.800 a lot of stuff that they were asking, some of 1051 01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:01.960 which is kind of like ahead of where we're at 1052 01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:04.320 on the timeline, some of which relates more to the 1053 01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:06.920 revision of stuff we were dealing with with a second 1054 01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:10.760 World War, but a long last moving forward, we'll cover 1055 01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:14.840 all of those, But I just briefly I'm not some 1056 01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:18.920 poll watcher like our friend Scott Career, DJ Scutty g 1057 01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:24.280 uh Internet cereal thriller and uh Beltway kill a but uh, 1058 01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:27.079 but I'm not making fun of him. He's a good 1059 01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:28.920 dude and he's been nice enough to host me on 1060 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:30.239 IT show a few times. And I don't know why 1061 01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:32.280 anybody would do that if they're a reputable person, because 1062 01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:35.519 I like that seems like I. 1063 01:04:37.639 --> 01:04:38.519 Really appreciate that. 1064 01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:40.400 No, no, no, I say, it's like it seems like 1065 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:41.800 it would cause you a lot of grief and like 1066 01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:43.840 not a lot of benefit. I mean, you're you're a 1067 01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:45.960 guy who's you're not like a fringe guy, but you're 1068 01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.239 a guy who's not afraid to like deal with like 1069 01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.400 radical things, not radical things like oh that's awesome and radical, 1070 01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:54.199 like you know, people have like radical tendencies. I don't 1071 01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:57.199 think I have those tendencies, But I ideal with stuff 1072 01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:02.280 that is a magnet for censorious uh type of uh enforcers. 1073 01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:04.920 That's all I meant. But he's got you know, he's 1074 01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:07.280 got a real uh. He guys like him and like 1075 01:05:07.480 --> 01:05:10.719 and like our guy Paul Fahrenheit. I always tap them 1076 01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:14.599 for kind of their thoughts on on you know, on 1077 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:17.519 on during election the season because they're really like clued 1078 01:05:17.559 --> 01:05:22.800 in to that and I am not. However, uh national elections, Uh, 1079 01:05:22.880 --> 01:05:25.480 I tend to I tend to pick presidential contest pretty 1080 01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:28.920 well in primary season. But regardless, I didn't think there's 1081 01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:31.400 any big surprises, man. And I know this morning I 1082 01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:34.719 got on Twitter like that that uh that uh that 1083 01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:39.440 sling blade guy in Pennsylvania. Uh like Bubba Feder person 1084 01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:42.039 or whate the fuck his name is or Feder federal woman, 1085 01:05:42.679 --> 01:05:45.880 federal person. I don't know what he. Uh, I mean 1086 01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:49.199 they're that and like the he because you know, the 1087 01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:52.079 diabolical doctor Oz going down in flames made a lot 1088 01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:55.719 of people upset. But the Republicans, they they won huge 1089 01:05:55.760 --> 01:06:00.199 in Florida, like statewide and uh jd Vance came after 1090 01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:02.440 to Ohio. I mean, grant, I'm not at loop, but 1091 01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:04.280 I like look at those things as like a win, man. 1092 01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:06.800 I mean, I like, unless I'm missing something like that's 1093 01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:09.320 that's a win. And they obviously got twenty twenty. They 1094 01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:11.960 got the white I was twenty twenty four unless they 1095 01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:16.400 joined the kind of witch hunt against their guy, mister Trump. 1096 01:06:17.079 --> 01:06:24.159 Desantist turned ten ten districts, in Miami that are normally 1097 01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:24.920 blue red. 1098 01:06:25.719 --> 01:06:28.360 Yeah, that's insane. I mean the state of Florida is 1099 01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:31.559 now like a safe red state, and that's crazy. I mean, 1100 01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:34.119 not like objectively, but I mean considering the last twenty years, 1101 01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:35.559 the way things have gone. I mean that I don't 1102 01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:37.920 see how there's not a win. I mean, were they 1103 01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:41.000 expecting like some nationwide sweep. I don't. I mean, I 1104 01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:44.079 I don't know. They seem I think they should be happy. 1105 01:06:44.199 --> 01:06:46.800 But all I saw, I mean, granted, like social media 1106 01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.280 is its own thing and sometimes forget how weird it is, 1107 01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:51.119 and presidents. I haven't been on it for a minute, 1108 01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:53.119 but like this morning, like I got all these like 1109 01:06:53.480 --> 01:06:56.159 got all these Twitter alerts, these like Republican type guys 1110 01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:58.519 who were not not Scott Greer. He's a very he's 1111 01:06:58.559 --> 01:07:01.559 a very not only a sensible guy, but he doesn't 1112 01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:02.920 go in for that kind of stuff. You had to 1113 01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:05.320 read Balance for you. But a whole bunch of these 1114 01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:08.159 kind of Internet you know, GOP cheer leaders. They were 1115 01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:11.519 acting like they were acting like there's some crushing defeat 1116 01:07:11.639 --> 01:07:13.119 or something. And so then like I started like looking 1117 01:07:13.119 --> 01:07:15.039 at their returns, I'm like, what the fuck are they 1118 01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:19.400 upset about man like im contemporary metrics. That seems like 1119 01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:21.840 a win. But again, what do I know. I'm I'm 1120 01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:24.119 a guy who writes about stuff from long ago and 1121 01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:28.920 speculates about the future. Maybe I don't really like plugged 1122 01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:32.159 into the present day, but I don't know man like that. 1123 01:07:32.360 --> 01:07:35.440 And yeah, the sand this is a phenom I'm not 1124 01:07:35.440 --> 01:07:37.079 going to be impressed with the saying is I mean 1125 01:07:37.119 --> 01:07:39.760 as a political operator, like he's dope, he's very good 1126 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:43.239 at what he does. And yeah, it's very impressive the 1127 01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:45.840 way he's been able to flip uh you know, some 1128 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:51.960 key some key jurisdic jurisdictions at the local level. But uh, yeah, 1129 01:07:52.079 --> 01:07:53.800 I I don't. I don't know what they're I don't 1130 01:07:53.840 --> 01:07:55.719 know why they're crying in their fucking corn flakes. But 1131 01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:58.079 again I'm not I'm not some pole watcher or some 1132 01:07:58.239 --> 01:08:03.320 freaking builtway expert. Quite the contrary. You know down in 1133 01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:06.480 Texas when you were where people fire up about Trump 1134 01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:09.000 and stuff or they just kind of like whatever, Oh they. 1135 01:08:09.039 --> 01:08:12.519 Just wanted to be Beto. Yeah they want yeah, yeah, 1136 01:08:12.679 --> 01:08:15.039 they I mean there are a lot of people, you know, 1137 01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:17.640 you go around Austin and you see some bedo signs. 1138 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:20.359 Once you get outside of Austin, once you're in the cities, 1139 01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:22.960 you'll see some when you get out of there, out 1140 01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:25.239 of the cities there, you'll see some every once in 1141 01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:29.640 a while, but it's mostly you know, I think most 1142 01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:31.800 of the people from Texas really don't like Abbott, but 1143 01:08:31.880 --> 01:08:33.399 they really can't stand Beto. 1144 01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:37.000 Yeah, Texas is a weird Texas kind of a I'm 1145 01:08:37.039 --> 01:08:39.239 not saying bad things about Texas. I like Texas and 1146 01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:41.239 I like Texas people, but their political culture is kind 1147 01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:43.960 of strange, you know, Like there's a like Rick Perry, 1148 01:08:44.039 --> 01:08:46.359 Franky's a weird guy. I mean, I know he's not. 1149 01:08:46.840 --> 01:08:47.600 I know he's not. 1150 01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:49.560 You know the I know he's not. He doesn't have 1151 01:08:49.600 --> 01:08:52.760 the cash that he did, you know, uh some years back. 1152 01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:55.399 I like nationally, I never I never bought the height 1153 01:08:55.479 --> 01:08:57.399 that he was going to be impactful on the national stage. 1154 01:08:57.800 --> 01:09:00.640 But he was a weird guy even for like even 1155 01:09:00.680 --> 01:09:03.000 as you know, even as a state ball like I 1156 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:05.439 I mean, Frankly, w is the sentence he was kind 1157 01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:07.319 of weird. I mean, I don't think I don't I 1158 01:09:07.319 --> 01:09:09.000 don't think it's weird that I mean, w Frankly had 1159 01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:10.880 his shipped together a lot more when he was when 1160 01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:13.199 he was younger. But I thought it was weird that, 1161 01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:16.199 I mean, to Texas really liked him. You don't forget 1162 01:09:16.239 --> 01:09:17.800 that W was actually he had a he had a 1163 01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:21.000 very strong rapport of this constituency in Texas. And then 1164 01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:23.640 in his first term as president, like this idea that 1165 01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:25.960 you know, everybody always hated W and he was just 1166 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:28.359 this failed politician. That's not true at all. I mean, 1167 01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:30.319 nobody has to. I don't like the guy, and I 1168 01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:33.840 nobody nobody should. But he's you know, he he he 1169 01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:37.880 did not. You can't simply buy your way uh to 1170 01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:42.039 uh to competitiveness, no, even especially if anything that might 1171 01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:44.159 work against you. When I say like textas okay, guy 1172 01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:46.800 like Bush, So I mean, I yeah, it's but I 1173 01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:48.960 thought it was weird that of all, I thought it 1174 01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:51.319 was weird. He struck me as like the kind of 1175 01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:54.199 twenty first century version of a Rockefeller Republican. And I'm like, 1176 01:09:54.239 --> 01:09:56.399 why why is Texas like this guy's home base? But 1177 01:09:56.479 --> 01:09:57.880 I mean, what do wh I know? And he was 1178 01:09:57.880 --> 01:09:59.279 big on he was big on gun rice, and he 1179 01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:01.119 was big pro death and the enemy back. And then 1180 01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:03.760 he's like those were issues that were kind of still 1181 01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:05.159 up for grabs. So I don't know. 1182 01:10:06.439 --> 01:10:10.920 Back in back in six somebody had put a video together. 1183 01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:14.000 It was a split screen video and it was it 1184 01:10:14.199 --> 01:10:18.840 was W in the gubernatorial debate in like ninety two, 1185 01:10:19.680 --> 01:10:22.600 and then it was W in the presidential debate in 1186 01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:27.800 two thousand and four. Right, yeah, Oh, in ninety two, 1187 01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:30.159 he's just I mean, no notes, no, no, I mean, 1188 01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:32.760 there was no teleprompter. He had everything in his head 1189 01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:34.800 and he was right. And then in two thousand and 1190 01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:36.319 four it was, you know. 1191 01:10:39.680 --> 01:10:42.920 The guy. I think Bush had some I think two things. 1192 01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:44.720 I think, first of all, I'm the last guy I 1193 01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:46.960 can like put shane on anybody with substance to use problem. 1194 01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:48.439 So not like saying that, oh Bush, you know they 1195 01:10:48.600 --> 01:10:51.760 drove a year, they'd drunk. But I think he probably relapsed. Frankly, 1196 01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:56.319 I mean he was acting like somebody who did okay, 1197 01:10:56.880 --> 01:10:59.319 because yeah, I mean the guy it's not like he man. 1198 01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:01.399 I think also get some health problems that we're not 1199 01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:04.560 let on on do because yeah, it wasn't just I 1200 01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:07.000 mean I remember some of his apologists just being like, oh, 1201 01:11:07.039 --> 01:11:09.079 he you know, it's just like nerves. He's not used 1202 01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:11.199 to the office. It's like in Texas is a huge 1203 01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:13.000 state man, and like he's not. He was not some 1204 01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:15.760 freshman congressman. He was a fucking governor. You know, you 1205 01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:17.920 can't tell me he's like scared of the camera or something. 1206 01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:20.119 It's you know, he was not. He was. He was 1207 01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:22.920 compromised in some way, you know, whether it was health related, 1208 01:11:23.720 --> 01:11:26.199 ing the illness or substance abuse or whatever. And again, 1209 01:11:26.279 --> 01:11:27.880 like I said, I'm not like putting shade on it. 1210 01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:29.760 I'm the last person to do that. But but yeah, 1211 01:11:29.800 --> 01:11:31.920 he was like two different people. It was really weird. 1212 01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:34.840 I'll see how that foot you're talking about. But we can, 1213 01:11:35.359 --> 01:11:37.359 we can dive into the Cold Wars. That's something I 1214 01:11:37.399 --> 01:11:38.600 know a hell of a lot more. I know a 1215 01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:40.680 hell of a lot more about than I do. Uh, 1216 01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:43.880 the goings on in the swamp I kind of wanted 1217 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:47.239 to get into. You know, there's this big debate like 1218 01:11:47.319 --> 01:11:49.880 to this day, and frankly, it's actually some decent scholarship 1219 01:11:49.920 --> 01:11:52.880 coming out about the Cold War, not as much revision 1220 01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:54.439 as stuff as I would like. And that's kind of 1221 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:56.119 one of the things I believe I'm like here on 1222 01:11:56.199 --> 01:11:59.279 earth to do. I mean, I'm not I'm not being melodramatic, 1223 01:11:59.319 --> 01:12:01.720 Like I really believe that, because like there's not there's 1224 01:12:01.760 --> 01:12:04.399 a million guys who are World War Two revisionists, and 1225 01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:09.039 that's dope. That's that's important, Okay, But frankly, there's there's 1226 01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:12.079 almost nobody dealing with the Cold War and in a 1227 01:12:12.439 --> 01:12:17.119 critical capacity. So I think we're doing important stuff here 1228 01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:20.640 in that regard. I mean we always are, but in 1229 01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:23.159 any event, there's a scholarly debate going on. It's like 1230 01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:27.079 when the Cold War ensued. I mean you can't. It's 1231 01:12:27.159 --> 01:12:33.119 tricky because obviously, when you're talking about a discrete armed conflict, 1232 01:12:33.399 --> 01:12:36.359 even when it's complicated as as the Second World War, 1233 01:12:36.680 --> 01:12:38.479 you know, you can kind of identify points at which 1234 01:12:38.560 --> 01:12:41.720 the status of relations fundamentally changed. You know, September third, 1235 01:12:41.800 --> 01:12:45.079 ninety thirty nine, you know, the Western Allies declared war 1236 01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:47.920 on the German Right, Okay, that starts starting point, Like, yeah, 1237 01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:51.920 there was hostilities emerging and active before then, but there's 1238 01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:53.960 not there's not any such point in the Cold War. 1239 01:12:54.840 --> 01:12:58.680 And the kind of tonal shift, not just in optics 1240 01:12:58.760 --> 01:13:04.239 and narrative, but in policy, uh, from between the Truman 1241 01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:07.920 administration that Roosevelt administration was dramatic. I know, people on 1242 01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:10.800 our side don't like Truman. I mean, I I've got 1243 01:13:10.920 --> 01:13:14.560 i Truman was not an evil man. He was not uh, 1244 01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:20.000 he was not a gangster like Roosevelt. He didn't have 1245 01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:24.199 the hubris of Roosevelt. I've got mixed feelings about Truman. 1246 01:13:24.199 --> 01:13:26.399 I don't think Truman should have been president. Okay, But 1247 01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:29.920 if we're talking about his moral character, and if we're 1248 01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:34.359 talking about what constituted his policy orientations with the Soviet Union, 1249 01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:38.000 he was in a very very difficult position and most 1250 01:13:38.039 --> 01:13:41.119 of the variables that were framing the decisions he had 1251 01:13:41.159 --> 01:13:44.319 to make it had nothing to do with his own sympathies. 1252 01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:48.880 You know, he quite literally inherited this bizarre situation whereby 1253 01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:53.840 Germany was occupied by the four powers of the United States, UK, 1254 01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:55.640 and then France got a seat at the table. I mean, 1255 01:13:55.640 --> 01:13:57.840 there's a total other issue in the in the Soviet Union, 1256 01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:00.760 there was there was no not only was there no 1257 01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:08.199 permanent status of of of you know, well now there's 1258 01:14:08.239 --> 01:14:11.119 no prodent peace treaty in the running. Nobody was even 1259 01:14:11.159 --> 01:14:13.920 talking about it, and it wasn't even clear like what 1260 01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:17.199 that would constitute. And really the only thing that it 1261 01:14:17.319 --> 01:14:21.239 set the tenor of relations at Yalta or at Tehran. 1262 01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:24.399 Everybody thinks Yelta's kind of word like everything, you know, 1263 01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:28.319 everything kind of was set in perverbial stone. It was not. 1264 01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:34.600 It was Tehran in forty three. That's when Roosevelt seeded 1265 01:14:34.640 --> 01:14:39.079 Berlin to Stalin, which seems crazy unless you understand the 1266 01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:42.760 new Dealer ideology, which we we delved into in earnest 1267 01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:45.960 in our whole World War two series. But beyond that, 1268 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:49.520 what's facinating to me is even men who you would 1269 01:14:49.560 --> 01:14:53.800 think would have known better, like Eisenhower. Okay, Eisenhower, whatever 1270 01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:55.880 else can be said about him, the guy was something 1271 01:14:55.920 --> 01:15:00.239 of a savant in terms of logistical, an engine hearing, 1272 01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:03.880 military matters, and he was a protege of pershing blackjack 1273 01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:08.479 person who's an under understated figure in the very histories 1274 01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:14.359 he hasn't made. Eisenower said, uh. Eisenwer said uh to 1275 01:15:14.439 --> 01:15:17.359 one of his adjutants, And this is related by Omar Bradley, 1276 01:15:18.239 --> 01:15:20.600 you know. Uh. When there was discussion as to, you know, 1277 01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:24.560 the issue of allowing the Soviets to take Berlin, Eisenwer 1278 01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:26.600 said something effective with my god, like who would want it? 1279 01:15:26.640 --> 01:15:28.880 You know they're gonna lose, you know, one hundred thousand 1280 01:15:28.920 --> 01:15:32.079 men taking it, and Bradley's he was stupefied by that. 1281 01:15:32.199 --> 01:15:33.640 He's like, well, what do you mean, you know, like 1282 01:15:33.720 --> 01:15:37.039 how you know I can say that, you know? Uh 1283 01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:42.159 and uh. And Eisenhower retorted with something like, well, as 1284 01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:44.560 a military objective, it's meaningless, you know what, what significance 1285 01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:48.920 does it hold? You know what? Bradley said, Well, you know, 1286 01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:53.439 in a few years, that's gonna be quite clear, you know. 1287 01:15:53.520 --> 01:15:57.159 And Malotov Uh, you know, the Soviet foreign minister, Old 1288 01:15:57.199 --> 01:15:59.920 Bolshevik that he was, like a lot of those guys, 1289 01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:03.439 he actually had a pretty strong sense of geopolitics, and 1290 01:16:03.560 --> 01:16:05.720 he said, you know, what happens in Berlin decides the 1291 01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:08.000 fate of Germany. What happens in Germany decides to fade 1292 01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:12.119 of Europe. So if you look at a map of 1293 01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:15.680 I mean, I can't pull it up now, but those 1294 01:16:16.359 --> 01:16:19.760 who are inclined to do so. If you look at 1295 01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:24.800 if you look at a map of divided Berlin, it's 1296 01:16:24.840 --> 01:16:32.279 strange because the Soviet sectors kind of bulges East Berlin 1297 01:16:32.800 --> 01:16:37.199 extended uh to Mitte, which was kind of the historical 1298 01:16:37.680 --> 01:16:40.399 core of the Berlin city center. That was like the 1299 01:16:40.479 --> 01:16:43.640 municipal like Hobb traditionally of Berlin. You know, that's where 1300 01:16:43.680 --> 01:16:46.319 city Hall was, you know, that's where Parliament was, That's 1301 01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:49.199 all these other traditional structures and administrations, the machinery and 1302 01:16:49.279 --> 01:16:51.920 the machinery of garment were. So it was obvious why 1303 01:16:52.000 --> 01:16:54.600 Stalin was making these demands. Okay, I mean it wasn't 1304 01:16:54.720 --> 01:16:59.960 and it wasn't just for prestige or something. Rose elenal 1305 01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:04.000 problem with that. But Roosevelt also what he the only 1306 01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:08.560 the only kind of signaling he'd given to uh Stalin 1307 01:17:10.079 --> 01:17:13.920 was that Tehran. And then before he died, apparently according 1308 01:17:13.920 --> 01:17:19.359 to people at Cordell Hull, he said, Roosevelt stated to 1309 01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:25.319 Stalin as well as to you know, his cabinet in 1310 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:28.560 the Apartment of State and uh In Department of War, 1311 01:17:29.159 --> 01:17:31.760 that oh, well, you know, American forces, I can't see 1312 01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:34.119 them staying in Europe beyond two years? Why would they? 1313 01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:37.720 You know which I don't think you can chalk up 1314 01:17:37.720 --> 01:17:41.279 to naivete because Roosevelt was uh Roosevelt is not naive, 1315 01:17:41.319 --> 01:17:44.239 whatever else we can say about him. And you know, 1316 01:17:44.439 --> 01:17:48.479 like we discussed in the you know earlier, we discussed 1317 01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:50.359 a couple of times even before we began a dedicated 1318 01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:54.520 series on the Cold War. You know, the New Dealer 1319 01:17:54.640 --> 01:17:57.880 vision was, uh, you know, a con a permanent concord 1320 01:17:57.960 --> 01:18:00.199 between the United States and the Soviet Union with the 1321 01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:03.119 United Nations. That's kind of a world legislature, you know, 1322 01:18:03.159 --> 01:18:06.439 the Security Council being uh, I mean, ultimately this is 1323 01:18:06.439 --> 01:18:08.680 what what what what what developed? But this is what 1324 01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:11.119 they had in mind, you know, early on, even the 1325 01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:13.680 Security councilor it's equivalent being you know, kind of like 1326 01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:16.039 the upper House, the General Assembly being the lower house, 1327 01:18:16.479 --> 01:18:19.439 you know, in America, having having a monopoly on atomic weapons, 1328 01:18:19.479 --> 01:18:21.600 you know, therefore, you know, being able to reign in 1329 01:18:21.640 --> 01:18:23.800 the Soviets when they were when there was policy disputes 1330 01:18:23.840 --> 01:18:28.840 out of governing the world. But even that, aside the UH, 1331 01:18:31.159 --> 01:18:36.319 there's no possible outcome where uh, where in neutral Germany 1332 01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:41.279 or a demilitarized Germany is tolerated. Okay, you know the 1333 01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:45.319 UH true Truman took Truman took the oth of office 1334 01:18:45.319 --> 01:18:50.960 with a hostile Congress, the UH. Even though even the 1335 01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:54.239 Republicans gutted as they were, the America First Movement had 1336 01:18:54.279 --> 01:18:56.479 been cast into disrepute, and some of these people had 1337 01:18:56.479 --> 01:18:59.800 actually been prosecuted and hounded and terrorized. Sounds kind of familiar. 1338 01:19:00.800 --> 01:19:03.319 But Robert Taff still made who remained like a strong 1339 01:19:03.439 --> 01:19:05.920 voice on Capitol Hill as kind of the you know, 1340 01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:09.000 the opposition, and even people who are interventionists, you know, 1341 01:19:09.039 --> 01:19:14.119 even like hawk as Republicans who who who are not isolationists, 1342 01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:17.560 you know, they were they were demanding essentially that you know, 1343 01:19:18.319 --> 01:19:20.840 Germany not be allowed to just fall into the Soviet 1344 01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:26.239 sphere of influence outright, So looking ahead, unless Roosevelt's plan 1345 01:19:26.439 --> 01:19:30.359 quite literally was a simply just seed Europe to the communists, 1346 01:19:32.199 --> 01:19:35.159 you can't really come to either conclusion, okay, and it's 1347 01:19:35.199 --> 01:19:37.560 not me just being like the famatory makes a minio 1348 01:19:37.560 --> 01:19:40.720 logical point, like what other conclusion can you come do? 1349 01:19:43.199 --> 01:19:46.600 You know? In one of the UH despite what despite 1350 01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:49.039 that kind of public face like pretty much everything and 1351 01:19:49.079 --> 01:19:50.800 well I'm gonna get into Berlin airlift in a minute, 1352 01:19:50.880 --> 01:19:53.760 and and what that signifies. But pretty much all the 1353 01:19:53.840 --> 01:20:02.159 negotiations with Stalin from UH from nineteen forty five onward 1354 01:20:03.439 --> 01:20:05.880 were or in basically bad faith about we're talking about 1355 01:20:05.880 --> 01:20:08.520 the stands in Germany because again, I mean, nobody was gonna, 1356 01:20:08.640 --> 01:20:12.640 no nobody in America, regardless of political strike, was going 1357 01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:15.800 to allow in neutral Germany, Okay, because that meant that 1358 01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:18.039 there's absolutely no point in fighting the Second World War, 1359 01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:19.840 and the Second Worlder should not have been fought. But 1360 01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:22.279 whether the strategic logic of the war planners in America, 1361 01:20:23.960 --> 01:20:28.800 at all costs journey must be prevented from capturing the East, 1362 01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:32.880 whether that's by a concord, a peaceable concord relatively between 1363 01:20:32.920 --> 01:20:35.680 Germany and the Soviet Union, whether it's by conquest, you know, 1364 01:20:35.720 --> 01:20:38.560 with Hitler at the helm. I mean today as we see, 1365 01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:40.600 I mean, what what that? This is what underlies the 1366 01:20:40.720 --> 01:20:45.399 Ukraine War? Is it not the fact that the fact 1367 01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:50.600 that the interdependence facilitated by from Merkle and mister Putin 1368 01:20:51.000 --> 01:20:54.640 was not something that America is going to tolerate, because 1369 01:20:54.680 --> 01:20:57.279 that's the only way that Europe casts off the shackles 1370 01:20:57.359 --> 01:21:01.039 of America in the UK and becomes a super Okay, 1371 01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:04.960 So even no matter where anybody fell in the political spectrum, 1372 01:21:05.560 --> 01:21:09.039 you know, they were not just going to allow demilitarized Germany, 1373 01:21:09.880 --> 01:21:14.199 but wherein you know, just by accident geography and proximity, 1374 01:21:14.439 --> 01:21:16.600 they were going to be incorporated into the Soviet sphere 1375 01:21:16.600 --> 01:21:19.760 of influence in some basic way. So there's that. I 1376 01:21:19.840 --> 01:21:24.279 mean probably there's there's there's more there than then we 1377 01:21:24.359 --> 01:21:26.520 have time to cover right now. But I I think 1378 01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:29.439 that that it's not a mystery, but it is enigmatic 1379 01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:33.520 as to what exactly Roosevelt's intentions were, and especially when 1380 01:21:33.560 --> 01:21:36.000 considers too that I mean Roosevelt and knowing certain terms, 1381 01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:38.000 knew that he was not going to liver along. Okay, 1382 01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:42.680 So I what how how exactly saw the world developing 1383 01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:45.800 after he was gone? Is? UH? Is is an open 1384 01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:48.000 ended question. And again, I mean, Roosevelt was a lot 1385 01:21:48.039 --> 01:21:49.560 of things, but he was not Joe Biden. He was 1386 01:21:49.600 --> 01:21:53.039 not Senile Okay, any it was really wasn't until the 1387 01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:55.239 final months of his life, was really compromise, and he 1388 01:21:55.319 --> 01:21:59.039 wasn't really you know, running running the country or the 1389 01:21:59.119 --> 01:22:02.680 war and an executive capacity anyway. But it uh, But 1390 01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:08.560 back to back to UH, back to UH. The topic 1391 01:22:08.600 --> 01:22:13.319 at hand, what to give an idea of how kind 1392 01:22:13.359 --> 01:22:16.199 of slap dash for lack of a better word, the 1393 01:22:16.359 --> 01:22:21.039 led administration that divided Germany was there was AH, what 1394 01:22:21.159 --> 01:22:25.840 was emplement was called the Common Common to Tourah and UH. 1395 01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:30.439 It was representatives of the United States, the Soviet Union, 1396 01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:35.000 the UK, and France meeting in UH, this kind of 1397 01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:41.520 mini UH executive council, and they were supposed to come 1398 01:22:41.560 --> 01:22:43.279 to they were supposed to going to terms on how 1399 01:22:43.319 --> 01:22:46.039 Berlin was to be administered, you know, in Berlin being 1400 01:22:46.159 --> 01:22:50.039 you know, to Maladov's point, you know, Berlin being quite literally, 1401 01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:52.159 you know, the kind of heart and lungs of Germany 1402 01:22:52.680 --> 01:22:55.399 and Germany being you know, the the axial pivot of Europe. 1403 01:22:55.720 --> 01:22:58.239 The idea was, well, what's the sayings of Berlin has resolved, 1404 01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:00.880 you know, the UH, the state, the stands of Germany 1405 01:23:00.920 --> 01:23:02.840 proper will be resolved, and then you know that this 1406 01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:07.239 this will just be a you know, UH, a done deal, 1407 01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:14.319 which seems incredible. Anybody could entertain that possibility is anything realistic? 1408 01:23:16.239 --> 01:23:18.880 As time as time passed to be unclear that not 1409 01:23:19.039 --> 01:23:22.800 only did the Soviets have absolutely no intention of of 1410 01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:27.000 allowing a Western military presence in Berlin, but the Soviet 1411 01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:30.680 delegates UH. The Soviet delegate neither him nor any of 1412 01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:34.159 his UH nor any of his UH adjutants spoke English. 1413 01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:37.840 The American delegation nobody spoke Russian. You know, a couple 1414 01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:40.119 of people were like trying to communicate like pigeon French 1415 01:23:40.199 --> 01:23:42.359 kind of like across the aisle. Like this whole thing, 1416 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:45.279 this whole thing was was a ridiculous charade, you know, 1417 01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:47.600 like the most petty issues that be debated for weeks 1418 01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:53.239 sometimes months. The uh, the Russians were demanding. UH, they 1419 01:23:53.479 --> 01:24:01.039 issued something and the sorry and the Sonian language is 1420 01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:05.399 not unintentional. They produced a document called the Fourteen Points, 1421 01:24:05.960 --> 01:24:08.800 which which basically demanded that in the Eastern sector of 1422 01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:11.279 Berlin there could be like no no quote profiteering at 1423 01:24:11.279 --> 01:24:13.600 the expensive workers and things like this, you know, like 1424 01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:18.000 it was. Uh, it's basically like a radical socialist manifesto 1425 01:24:18.159 --> 01:24:21.600 saying that you know, the the the only, the only, 1426 01:24:22.399 --> 01:24:27.199 the only legitimate capitol producer in in this arbitrarily designated 1427 01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:30.359 eastern sector in Germany, you know, was Moscow and nobody 1428 01:24:30.439 --> 01:24:38.079 else the UH And finally this carried on for a good, 1429 01:24:38.239 --> 01:24:43.640 uh close to two years, and UH finally UH a 1430 01:24:43.720 --> 01:24:47.199 clerical staff, some kind of skeleton crew remained at UH 1431 01:24:48.199 --> 01:24:51.760 at UH at the at these at these meetings, representing 1432 01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:54.640 the Soviet Union. But on by August first, nineteen forty eight, 1433 01:24:56.159 --> 01:25:00.960 some UH, some representatives U un ceremonious we removed the 1434 01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:04.039 Soviet flag, took all their files, clean up their offices, 1435 01:25:04.039 --> 01:25:06.279 and the Soviets has never returned. You know, they were 1436 01:25:06.560 --> 01:25:09.600 they they they essentially like it was basically like a 1437 01:25:09.680 --> 01:25:13.640 solid boycott that killed the enterprise because it had it 1438 01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:16.239 had no no, no even second reason, that forced a 1439 01:25:16.319 --> 01:25:21.199 law without all for resident of all four occupation states present, 1440 01:25:22.800 --> 01:25:25.439 what's more significant to show you kind of the the 1441 01:25:25.560 --> 01:25:31.600 dysfunctional state of East Germany. I've noticed that a lot 1442 01:25:31.640 --> 01:25:35.079 of people, I mean people, obviously, I'm talking about court historians. Okay, 1443 01:25:35.720 --> 01:25:38.800 they're obsessed with the personages of the Third Reich uh 1444 01:25:39.159 --> 01:25:42.000 generally because they want to cast on those cutitive like possible, 1445 01:25:42.399 --> 01:25:45.439 but even more sensible, even more sensible people, you know, 1446 01:25:45.479 --> 01:25:48.520 they fixate very much. And the individuals who constituted sort 1447 01:25:48.520 --> 01:25:50.720 of the control group of the party and of and 1448 01:25:50.840 --> 01:25:53.239 of the of the state. You don't find that a 1449 01:25:53.279 --> 01:25:56.039 lot with East Germany, Okay, Now, not in any sort 1450 01:25:56.039 --> 01:25:58.840 of the imagination suggesting that these men were nearly as 1451 01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:03.079 dynamic as those who constituted the the NSDAP or that 1452 01:26:03.399 --> 01:26:07.479 the DDR was you know, some some kind of you know, 1453 01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:13.520 independent power into itself, that they wielded any great authority 1454 01:26:13.720 --> 01:26:18.920 or power of projection capability. However, it was in fact 1455 01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:21.319 part of the German state. Okay, even if you don't 1456 01:26:21.479 --> 01:26:24.239 even if even if that is now people didn't recognize 1457 01:26:24.239 --> 01:26:29.359 its legitimacy as as a sovereign regime. It you know, 1458 01:26:29.479 --> 01:26:33.920 twenty million Germans lived there. Berlin was within its borders 1459 01:26:35.239 --> 01:26:37.079 and it was, uh, it was quite literally at the 1460 01:26:37.119 --> 01:26:44.279 front lines of of of the geostrategic divide for forty years. Now. 1461 01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:50.159 Who who came to run the d DR? Well, the 1462 01:26:50.279 --> 01:26:56.039 Soviets tapped h Walter Ubert. Walter Ubercht was even an 1463 01:26:56.079 --> 01:27:00.239 exiled member of the KPD. You know, he'd been uh, 1464 01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:03.840 even an active revolutionary in the Weimar years, you know, 1465 01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:07.960 into the UH into the years of the the Third Reich, 1466 01:27:08.479 --> 01:27:10.720 and like a lot of communists, you know, he he 1467 01:27:10.840 --> 01:27:14.680 realized that he was gonna be prosecuted and imprisoned if not, 1468 01:27:15.640 --> 01:27:17.720 if not shot, and he fled to the Soviet Union. 1469 01:27:20.119 --> 01:27:23.960 Ulbrich was deployed to Berlin before the cessation of hostilities. 1470 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:26.600 He arrived in April thirtieth what was called the Ulberton Group. 1471 01:27:27.079 --> 01:27:31.520 There are various various functionaries, uh, prisoners, anti fascist prisoners 1472 01:27:31.560 --> 01:27:35.920 of war, you know, various guys like Ulbert himself, who 1473 01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:38.560 whould fought for the Reds in Spain and then UH 1474 01:27:39.079 --> 01:27:42.840 and then and then found amnesty and in in the 1475 01:27:42.920 --> 01:27:45.640 Soviet Union after the ascendancy of the n sd A P. 1476 01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:49.439 But these guys uh and and all and and all 1477 01:27:49.640 --> 01:27:52.239 and there there was what was called the Akerman group 1478 01:27:52.399 --> 01:27:54.560 who was deployed to Sacks and the Eve, the Sabatka group, 1479 01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:58.640 two to UH to Mechlenberg, you know, all named after 1480 01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:02.000 their their cadre leader, you know. And Anton Akerman of 1481 01:28:02.199 --> 01:28:05.119 the sonianed Akerman group, he was part of the he 1482 01:28:05.319 --> 01:28:08.439 the functionary of the communist youth movement in Germany in 1483 01:28:08.560 --> 01:28:11.920 the twenties, you know. Then he joined the KPD. H 1484 01:28:12.399 --> 01:28:14.479 he was sentenced to death in absentia, you know, and 1485 01:28:14.760 --> 01:28:17.359 after nineteen thirty three. Like these guys are basically the 1486 01:28:17.399 --> 01:28:20.920 whole post war coterie of Germany. They were the old 1487 01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:25.840 like KPD control group. So that meant that, you know, 1488 01:28:25.920 --> 01:28:28.399 not only they've they've been they've been gone for ten 1489 01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:31.680 sometimes twenty years. They hadn't been they hadn't been a home, 1490 01:28:32.319 --> 01:28:34.840 you know, so they were it's not like they had 1491 01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:37.239 UH cadres and being on the ground, I mean even 1492 01:28:37.279 --> 01:28:39.399 among the Communis who stayed behind. You know, people were like, 1493 01:28:39.439 --> 01:28:41.439 who the hell are these guys? You know, they had 1494 01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:45.319 no they had no real mandate from people. Okay, I 1495 01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:47.600 mean arguably, you know, when you're under occupation by the 1496 01:28:47.640 --> 01:28:51.359 Soviet Union, it can't be said that any kind of 1497 01:28:51.439 --> 01:28:55.399 genuine expression of popular will is possible. But this was 1498 01:28:55.520 --> 01:29:01.960 especially contrived. And famously when Lubrick derived, you know, everybody 1499 01:29:02.039 --> 01:29:04.359 knew who he was, you know, because he he was uh, 1500 01:29:05.560 --> 01:29:08.960 you know, he he arrived in in you know, in 1501 01:29:09.119 --> 01:29:11.800 uh in what had been East Prussia initially you have 1502 01:29:11.880 --> 01:29:13.840 to have been you know, like liberated by the Soviets, 1503 01:29:14.439 --> 01:29:16.520 and uh there were Germans who were some of communist 1504 01:29:16.520 --> 01:29:18.399 sympathetic who said, oh, you have no idea like what 1505 01:29:18.479 --> 01:29:20.079 they're doing to us, meaning the Red Army. You know, 1506 01:29:20.159 --> 01:29:22.600 this this this rape and this and this, this pillage 1507 01:29:22.640 --> 01:29:25.199 and this destruction, you know, And Ubert said, uh, you 1508 01:29:25.279 --> 01:29:27.600 know that that's fascist propaganda. I don't believe that. You know, 1509 01:29:27.600 --> 01:29:29.520 if you utter that again, I'll have you shot. You know, 1510 01:29:29.640 --> 01:29:31.439 people were like, who the hell is this guy? You 1511 01:29:31.560 --> 01:29:34.880 know what I mean, like he they uh so even 1512 01:29:34.920 --> 01:29:37.640 what I'm getting at is that even even he consider 1513 01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:41.239 that people were not enthusiastic about you know, the KPD 1514 01:29:41.479 --> 01:29:45.960 or its legacy party coming to coming to dominate the 1515 01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:51.119 state apparatus ubric teddy unique like lack of of credibility. 1516 01:29:51.359 --> 01:29:52.920 You know, they might as well have just deployed you know, 1517 01:29:53.079 --> 01:29:58.359 some some some Russian apparatchick from uh from Moscow or 1518 01:29:58.399 --> 01:30:01.600 from or from at Vostok, you know, like what what 1519 01:30:01.840 --> 01:30:06.520 what was even the point? But I believe, in my opinion, uh, 1520 01:30:07.239 --> 01:30:09.479 it was basically for the benefit of the outside world. 1521 01:30:09.800 --> 01:30:11.399 Like they were saying like, hey, look, you know we're 1522 01:30:11.560 --> 01:30:13.319 we're not We're not afraid of Germans having, you know, 1523 01:30:13.359 --> 01:30:16.199 sovereignty over the run affairs like mister Ubrich is you know, 1524 01:30:16.239 --> 01:30:18.600 he's a German national, you know, so z Ackerman or 1525 01:30:19.079 --> 01:30:22.399 I believe that's what it was all about. And uh, 1526 01:30:23.119 --> 01:30:25.399 I mean the stories never would have trusted a genuine 1527 01:30:25.520 --> 01:30:29.359 uh yeah, I mean even a genuine like radical socialist 1528 01:30:29.439 --> 01:30:33.079 movement that was truly indigenous to Germany like that the 1529 01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:36.119 war had changed all that. But I people are often 1530 01:30:36.560 --> 01:30:38.880 they often say like, you know, how can they how 1531 01:30:38.960 --> 01:30:40.800 could the uh how cold the Soviets think that the 1532 01:30:40.800 --> 01:30:43.600 people just spotted the s c D. You know, it's like, well, 1533 01:30:43.640 --> 01:30:45.000 I I don't, I don't. I don't think that was 1534 01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:46.680 the point. I think the point was, you know, they 1535 01:30:47.439 --> 01:30:48.840 it was, it was it was a kind of it 1536 01:30:48.920 --> 01:30:52.439 was a kind of alibi when the eviction was raised 1537 01:30:52.479 --> 01:30:54.960 that you know this, this was nothing but a hostile 1538 01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:59.439 occupation and all but name. But in any event, and 1539 01:30:59.479 --> 01:31:01.359 then when I say the se D the in the 1540 01:31:01.479 --> 01:31:04.119 in the in the in the Soviet occupation sector, there 1541 01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:09.079 was U. The KPD, UH declared uh E merged with 1542 01:31:09.119 --> 01:31:12.720 the Social Democrats and became the Party of Socialist Unity. Okay, 1543 01:31:12.760 --> 01:31:14.279 the real party of the d d R was not 1544 01:31:14.399 --> 01:31:16.520 the KPD, it was the s D. Okay, just for 1545 01:31:17.119 --> 01:31:22.760 reference sake. But as this UH, as this was developing, 1546 01:31:25.600 --> 01:31:28.840 there was UH in in the west, there was there 1547 01:31:28.880 --> 01:31:32.840 was not a clear kind of policy trajectory. Now enter 1548 01:31:34.039 --> 01:31:39.039 entered George Kennon. Kennon was the He was the de 1549 01:31:39.159 --> 01:31:43.319 facto ambassador to the Soviet Union. He was actually the 1550 01:31:43.479 --> 01:31:46.279 charge of the affairs. Okay, but I mean, for all 1551 01:31:46.319 --> 01:31:51.880 pradical purposes, he was the ambassador. You know what Kennon's uh. 1552 01:31:52.720 --> 01:31:55.479 What Kennon's not known for is UH is is the 1553 01:31:55.600 --> 01:32:01.800 long the long memo Okay, there was so so named 1554 01:32:01.840 --> 01:32:04.239 because it was the longest State Department dispatcher ever said 1555 01:32:04.279 --> 01:32:08.119 by telegram. It was all over five thousand words, the 1556 01:32:08.199 --> 01:32:12.520 Long Telegram, not the Long Memo. I find this to 1557 01:32:12.600 --> 01:32:17.560 be the most mischaracterized document or statement of the Cold War, 1558 01:32:18.000 --> 01:32:22.039 save maybe for Cruisehip's quote secret speech. Okay, the term 1559 01:32:22.159 --> 01:32:25.439 containment was, yes, it was coined by this telegram, but 1560 01:32:26.079 --> 01:32:29.479 uh Kenan was not calling for some kind of hawkish 1561 01:32:29.720 --> 01:32:34.319 military resistance to the Soviet Union. Like Kenyon was profoundly 1562 01:32:34.359 --> 01:32:36.920 an a communist, he was horrified by the Soviet Union, 1563 01:32:38.159 --> 01:32:39.720 but he was not a military man, and he was 1564 01:32:39.760 --> 01:32:45.079 not proposing any kind of military doctrine what he When 1565 01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:47.960 the Long Telegram was expanded to an essay length, it 1566 01:32:48.039 --> 01:32:50.319 appeared in Foreign Affairs, which at one time was a 1567 01:32:50.359 --> 01:32:52.760 great periodical. I've not looked at it in years. I 1568 01:32:52.840 --> 01:32:55.319 assume it's kind of woke and silly like everything else, 1569 01:32:55.680 --> 01:32:58.319 or it's full of crazy people want to like attack 1570 01:32:58.399 --> 01:33:01.359 everybody on this planet for no reason. But at one 1571 01:33:01.439 --> 01:33:03.880 time it was it was. It was not just a 1572 01:33:03.960 --> 01:33:05.800 lot of prestige behind it, but it had real cachet 1573 01:33:05.880 --> 01:33:10.279 because it was very serious. But the actual title of 1574 01:33:11.039 --> 01:33:16.199 the long Telegram expanded to proper pay per form with 1575 01:33:16.319 --> 01:33:19.399 sources of Soviet conduct, And that's exactly what it was about. 1576 01:33:20.319 --> 01:33:22.439 Ken It was a rare kind of occidental man. And 1577 01:33:22.680 --> 01:33:24.479 I'm not trying to be offensive or say bad things 1578 01:33:24.479 --> 01:33:28.600 are Russian people, but they're very different. Okay, They're very 1579 01:33:28.640 --> 01:33:32.640 different than the West. Even the best of times, even 1580 01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:35.159 when they had a more normal government, it was difficult 1581 01:33:35.199 --> 01:33:38.520 to decipher their intentions. And there was not just linguistic barriers. 1582 01:33:38.640 --> 01:33:42.840 There's there's cultural barriers that relate to symbolic psychology and 1583 01:33:42.960 --> 01:33:49.680 historical experience and all kinds of other things. But Kennon's 1584 01:33:50.359 --> 01:33:53.239 enterprise was, I've got to try to make the Department 1585 01:33:53.279 --> 01:33:57.399 of Stay in the Department of War, and more importantly, 1586 01:33:57.439 --> 01:34:02.000 mister Truman understand the world to the Soviets eyes. Now, 1587 01:34:03.840 --> 01:34:06.960 kenn said that, uh, there's not gonna there's never there's 1588 01:34:07.119 --> 01:34:08.439 no one. You're not gonna be able to come to 1589 01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:11.279 come to terms with the Soviet Union, Okay, he said, 1590 01:34:11.359 --> 01:34:12.880 you so get that out of your head right away. 1591 01:34:12.960 --> 01:34:14.800 In policy terms, he said, the Soviets are never going 1592 01:34:14.840 --> 01:34:16.840 to give you what you what what you want. They're 1593 01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:19.800 not gonna either They're they're not gonna abide Roosevelt's vision 1594 01:34:19.880 --> 01:34:21.880 of you know, ruling the world with Uncle Sam as 1595 01:34:21.880 --> 01:34:25.079 a junior partner. They're they're not gonna accept the United 1596 01:34:25.119 --> 01:34:28.560 States has a benign influence in Europe. You know, they're 1597 01:34:28.600 --> 01:34:31.520 not They're not gonna view, uh, any of America's move 1598 01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:33.960 outside the out of side of its immediate sphere of 1599 01:34:34.039 --> 01:34:38.560 influences is legitimate, and that owes to a few things. 1600 01:34:38.600 --> 01:34:40.600 It was the It was that it was the Russian 1601 01:34:41.199 --> 01:34:45.600 traditional Russian fixation on security, and in very basic terms, 1602 01:34:45.880 --> 01:34:48.800 the Russians need defense in depth, and Russia is a 1603 01:34:48.840 --> 01:34:51.560 state that is in a nation that is constantly attacked 1604 01:34:51.560 --> 01:34:55.600 by its enemies. So there's that. Now you add to 1605 01:34:55.680 --> 01:35:01.920 that the overlay of Marcist Leninist city ology, which at 1606 01:35:01.960 --> 01:35:04.920 that time it's still very much was still very much 1607 01:35:04.960 --> 01:35:07.920 interstitially bound up with kind of the Russian political mind. 1608 01:35:09.800 --> 01:35:12.920 They've viewed the United States is not much different than 1609 01:35:13.000 --> 01:35:14.680 the Third Reich, and they've give the third right because 1610 01:35:14.680 --> 01:35:16.520 that is still doesn'ts of evil and the view the 1611 01:35:16.560 --> 01:35:20.039 United States and the UK as capitalist states and crisis 1612 01:35:20.640 --> 01:35:24.159 who at all costs are gonna pursue an adversarial pass 1613 01:35:24.279 --> 01:35:27.159 with the Soviet Union, because the only way capitalist states 1614 01:35:27.199 --> 01:35:30.239 can keep from cannibalizing one another is to find an 1615 01:35:30.359 --> 01:35:33.760 enemy from without. Okay, now this is boiler plate Leninism, 1616 01:35:33.920 --> 01:35:37.520 but the Soviets that actually believe that, and kend Of 1617 01:35:37.600 --> 01:35:40.119 made the point that, you know, unlike in the United States, 1618 01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:44.119 unlike in the UK, you know, where political discourse is 1619 01:35:44.159 --> 01:35:45.880 kind of this, it is almost kind of this. It's 1620 01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:49.720 almost kind of like play acting in the Soviet. Soviet 1621 01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:52.239 leaders like when they say things, they actually mean exactly 1622 01:35:52.279 --> 01:35:54.439 what they say, even if it sounds crazy. The Soviet 1623 01:35:54.479 --> 01:35:57.600 Union is not an able transparent but the official statements 1624 01:35:57.640 --> 01:36:00.920 coming from the Kremlin are actually exactly what the and 1625 01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:03.560 you can extrapolate that to today when the Russian government 1626 01:36:03.600 --> 01:36:07.560 is is a formal statement that's actually exactly what they mean. Now, 1627 01:36:07.680 --> 01:36:10.760 don't get me wrong. The Kremlin then is now is 1628 01:36:10.800 --> 01:36:16.840 literally byzantine. Russian political culture is totally opig is massively conspiratorial. Uh, 1629 01:36:17.159 --> 01:36:20.399 it's all screwed up. But you don't have like weird actors, 1630 01:36:21.319 --> 01:36:24.520 you know, just kind of saying things in Russian political 1631 01:36:24.600 --> 01:36:27.000 life like you do in the West. It's totally different. 1632 01:36:27.479 --> 01:36:30.079 And obviously American political culture then was not nearly as 1633 01:36:30.119 --> 01:36:33.279 degenerate as now, but there was some of that. And 1634 01:36:33.439 --> 01:36:38.199 this was a very important point. And so Kennon's point 1635 01:36:38.479 --> 01:36:43.399 was what he meant by containment is this, he said, 1636 01:36:44.760 --> 01:36:46.479 the way the world's gonna be ordered, the way this 1637 01:36:46.640 --> 01:36:49.880 entire planet, the fate of this entire planet, quite literally 1638 01:36:49.960 --> 01:36:53.840 in political and structural terms, political structural terms and sociological ones, 1639 01:36:54.439 --> 01:36:56.520 it's going to be decided by who can win over 1640 01:36:56.600 --> 01:36:59.840 the developing world and the Third World and the Soviet 1641 01:36:59.840 --> 01:37:02.359 you mean, Kennon pointed out, has a lot of cachet 1642 01:37:02.439 --> 01:37:04.840 there because the third world is full of people who 1643 01:37:04.880 --> 01:37:07.399 are already kind of radicalized. They've not had a good 1644 01:37:07.399 --> 01:37:10.840 experience with the white Western world. Part of that is 1645 01:37:10.840 --> 01:37:13.680 the scapegoating. Part of that is, you know, just kind 1646 01:37:13.680 --> 01:37:17.359 of the tragedy of when traditional societies, especially primitive ones, 1647 01:37:17.359 --> 01:37:19.319 and again I'm not saying that cunitively, that's just an 1648 01:37:19.359 --> 01:37:22.600 accurate assessment, you know, collide with modernity, you know, and 1649 01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:25.520 the UH and UH and the double edged sort of technology, 1650 01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:28.159 you know, and you know, the quote unquote what weav 1651 01:37:28.319 --> 01:37:30.760 was progress, but what they view as you know, very 1652 01:37:30.840 --> 01:37:37.319 very traumatic UH processes and beyond that, the uh just 1653 01:37:37.399 --> 01:37:40.880 within you know we we we even in the nineteen fifties, 1654 01:37:41.000 --> 01:37:43.840 you know, uh, people in America had come to look 1655 01:37:43.880 --> 01:37:47.640 at Bolshevism and and Marxist Leninism outside of you know, 1656 01:37:47.720 --> 01:37:50.039 academic corners and things like the Man in the Street 1657 01:37:50.239 --> 01:37:52.479 used as something that did not really deliver and if 1658 01:37:52.560 --> 01:37:55.520 uned as basically alien and those of the interviewers basically alien, 1659 01:37:55.640 --> 01:37:58.039 uned as something that you know, was was was not 1660 01:37:58.560 --> 01:38:01.119 was not it's not animated him towards you know, some 1661 01:38:01.279 --> 01:38:05.359 kind of impassionate defense of the ideology. Okay, but in 1662 01:38:05.439 --> 01:38:07.479 the Third World that was not the case at all. 1663 01:38:07.640 --> 01:38:09.800 I mean really until the eighties, Marcus Lennon hasn't had 1664 01:38:09.840 --> 01:38:11.880 great cache in the Third World. And if you want 1665 01:38:11.880 --> 01:38:14.199 to understand the Cold War and White endored for so 1666 01:38:14.319 --> 01:38:17.439 long that is why, okay, I mean long after there 1667 01:38:17.520 --> 01:38:19.840 was any kind of risk of you know, France, uh, 1668 01:38:20.279 --> 01:38:21.880 you know, people in France going to the polls and 1669 01:38:21.960 --> 01:38:25.079 voting in some Stalinist party. So long after you know, 1670 01:38:25.159 --> 01:38:28.159 Gus Fall and his friends said any any chance of 1671 01:38:28.239 --> 01:38:30.840 turning you know, the teamsers unied into a some kind 1672 01:38:30.840 --> 01:38:34.760 of Communist client, you know. Uh, in in places like Angola, 1673 01:38:35.319 --> 01:38:39.039 you know, places like Nicaragua, in places uh, in places 1674 01:38:39.119 --> 01:38:41.600 you know, like Indonesia, there was there was still cachet 1675 01:38:41.680 --> 01:38:47.399 who communism. Okay, So Kenn said, UH, there's got to 1676 01:38:47.399 --> 01:38:53.560 be a broad spectrum uh attack on communism, particularly uh, 1677 01:38:54.439 --> 01:38:57.720 you know, in terms of UH, in terms of suaging 1678 01:38:57.720 --> 01:39:01.399 anxieties about uh the development model of the West. You know, 1679 01:39:01.479 --> 01:39:05.920 that means not disturbing and upsetting uh indigenous cultures where 1680 01:39:05.920 --> 01:39:08.800 it's not essential to do so in order to uh, 1681 01:39:09.439 --> 01:39:11.359 in order to create a political culture that you know 1682 01:39:11.560 --> 01:39:15.600 is suitable for American goals. You know that means that 1683 01:39:16.159 --> 01:39:19.600 you know, not over reliance on on the military aspect 1684 01:39:19.680 --> 01:39:24.560 of competition, but you know, demonstrating uh, demonstrating uh American 1685 01:39:24.640 --> 01:39:29.640 systemic superiority that we can see you away, you know, scientifically, culturally, technologically, 1686 01:39:31.520 --> 01:39:33.960 you know, uh, in the arts, like all all of 1687 01:39:34.000 --> 01:39:39.520 these things. Unfortunately, the people are selective in especially in 1688 01:39:39.600 --> 01:39:42.560 policy terms, and what they what they take from UH 1689 01:39:45.479 --> 01:39:48.880 these kinds of broad based position statements of of inspired 1690 01:39:48.920 --> 01:39:53.000 people like Kenon. So the way people read uh the 1691 01:39:53.119 --> 01:39:56.199 Kenon uh the Long Telegram and the Canon memo is oh, 1692 01:39:56.359 --> 01:39:59.239 we've we've we've got to challenge the Soviet Union militarily 1693 01:39:59.279 --> 01:40:01.920 at all costs. Uh, basically like in every theater where 1694 01:40:02.000 --> 01:40:07.359 where they assert themselves and that uh and then that 1695 01:40:07.640 --> 01:40:09.520 and thus Kennon and that this was this was the 1696 01:40:09.600 --> 01:40:12.039 bane of his existence for his whole life. And he 1697 01:40:12.119 --> 01:40:15.520 made that clear, uh decade after decade that he was 1698 01:40:15.600 --> 01:40:18.600 called the quote father of containment. But at the event, 1699 01:40:20.640 --> 01:40:23.720 regardless of the fact that Kennon did not appreciate being 1700 01:40:23.760 --> 01:40:25.359 forced to go to the court of public opinion to 1701 01:40:25.439 --> 01:40:29.199 co sign, you know, what became containment as policy with 1702 01:40:29.399 --> 01:40:34.279 what was fleshed out in his in his position paper. Uh. 1703 01:40:35.159 --> 01:40:38.560 You know, Truman had a problem because Truman was facing 1704 01:40:38.600 --> 01:40:42.000 an increasingly aggressive Soviet Union that was quite clearly doing 1705 01:40:42.039 --> 01:40:46.439 everything that could to lock uh the West out of 1706 01:40:46.479 --> 01:40:49.920 Berlin and ultimately locked the West out of Germany at all. 1707 01:40:50.720 --> 01:40:53.720 And as we said, he had a hostile Congress. Already 1708 01:40:54.039 --> 01:40:56.159 people had become very, very soured on the idea of 1709 01:40:56.159 --> 01:40:58.880 the Soviet Union, not just as an ally but as 1710 01:40:58.880 --> 01:41:03.800 a benign influence in the world. And furthermore, you know, 1711 01:41:04.199 --> 01:41:07.039 one of the things we were speaking of Tehran, uh, 1712 01:41:07.840 --> 01:41:11.640 the Tehran's Summit, not not fleshing out what the status 1713 01:41:11.720 --> 01:41:14.199 of Berlin and the status that German Germany would be 1714 01:41:14.239 --> 01:41:17.880 moving forward. It didn't indicate anything as to how, what 1715 01:41:18.039 --> 01:41:19.920 what what would become of the world where you know, 1716 01:41:20.560 --> 01:41:25.079 the UK is simply you know, UH just simply declared 1717 01:41:25.119 --> 01:41:27.000 these people in the dominions to have like, you know, 1718 01:41:27.119 --> 01:41:30.079 to to have like rights of British citizenship now, you know, 1719 01:41:30.159 --> 01:41:32.640 and like these these these territories in Africa you know 1720 01:41:32.720 --> 01:41:35.439 that were being that were they were being seated to 1721 01:41:35.520 --> 01:41:39.279 indigenous rule and divested from you know, from the from 1722 01:41:39.319 --> 01:41:41.520 the French and from the Belgians. You know, like what 1723 01:41:42.119 --> 01:41:44.399 like what how do we manage these places? You know, 1724 01:41:44.479 --> 01:41:46.800 like what moving forward? Like you know, who's going to 1725 01:41:46.840 --> 01:41:49.119 take the lead here? You know, is is it going 1726 01:41:49.159 --> 01:41:51.000 to be you know, is it gonna be under some 1727 01:41:51.119 --> 01:41:52.920 kind of like u N jurisdiction? Is it going to 1728 01:41:52.960 --> 01:41:56.359 be under the jurisdiction of the former colonial authority? You know, 1729 01:41:56.479 --> 01:42:00.479 this was not clear and this caused huge problems and 1730 01:42:00.880 --> 01:42:04.359 it led to UH. It led to UH and what 1731 01:42:04.479 --> 01:42:07.279 I considered to being one of the first UH active 1732 01:42:07.399 --> 01:42:11.279 crisis of the Cold War. One of the many horrible 1733 01:42:11.359 --> 01:42:14.159 things UH we can say about Churchill and they are 1734 01:42:14.199 --> 01:42:19.079 many you know that trying to resort diperbole as it 1735 01:42:19.159 --> 01:42:23.159 became clear posti alta in Churchill's mind that the United 1736 01:42:23.159 --> 01:42:26.239 States was not gonna do anything to preserve the British Empire, 1737 01:42:26.640 --> 01:42:29.359 like why why it goes to show you the man's 1738 01:42:29.399 --> 01:42:32.000 fundamental lack of understanding under the character of Roosevelt, but 1739 01:42:32.079 --> 01:42:36.479 of you know, the emerging kind of geopolitical culture of 1740 01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:41.880 uh of the epoch. Turchile hascided that something had to 1741 01:42:41.920 --> 01:42:45.840 be done to guard the UK's fledging interest in the Mediterranean. 1742 01:42:46.800 --> 01:42:52.640 So he approached Stalin and Molotov without Roosevelt's knowledge, and 1743 01:42:52.720 --> 01:42:55.760 he drafted this is an absurd document what was called 1744 01:42:55.800 --> 01:42:59.560 the Percentages Agreement, quite literally, where he wrote out what 1745 01:42:59.720 --> 01:43:03.800 percentage of influence the Soviet Union be allowed and the 1746 01:43:03.920 --> 01:43:06.880 UK would be allowed, and he territories the Mediterranean like 1747 01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:09.760 literally writing, well, the you know, the US is organ 1748 01:43:09.960 --> 01:43:13.760 ten percent influence in Greece and London hast of ninety percent, 1749 01:43:14.319 --> 01:43:16.439 Like how any rational person I think that's the way 1750 01:43:16.479 --> 01:43:19.039 fear of influence works, And what the hell is ninety 1751 01:43:19.119 --> 01:43:22.479 percent influence in our political terms? The whole thing is absurd, 1752 01:43:23.439 --> 01:43:28.000 it's it's crazy it's literally crazy. But Greece was the 1753 01:43:28.079 --> 01:43:32.840 first state post war really when the Germans withdrew from 1754 01:43:32.880 --> 01:43:37.760 Greece and forty four a communist insurgency jumped off. And 1755 01:43:37.840 --> 01:43:39.920 it was very complicated like who the players wore and 1756 01:43:39.960 --> 01:43:44.520 everything like that, but it was the UK deployed to 1757 01:43:44.640 --> 01:43:51.359 prevent a communists takeover. People sympathetic to the communists. They 1758 01:43:51.479 --> 01:43:53.840 you referred to it as the second White Terror in Greece. 1759 01:43:54.600 --> 01:43:57.680 There's a lot of mercenary action there. It was. It 1760 01:43:57.760 --> 01:44:00.359 was actually a very it was a bloody conflict, okay, 1761 01:44:00.479 --> 01:44:03.840 but the uh but the point is that, uh, you know, 1762 01:44:04.000 --> 01:44:06.119 this is also what later led you know, a decade 1763 01:44:06.119 --> 01:44:09.199 subsequent to the Suez Crisis or and that led Eisenhower 1764 01:44:09.239 --> 01:44:12.399 to kind of you know declaring uh a status of 1765 01:44:12.560 --> 01:44:15.920 uh of of relations for the Middle East, you know, 1766 01:44:16.000 --> 01:44:18.319 and shutting uh, shutting the French, the French and the 1767 01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:20.640 UK out of it permanently. And in those days too, 1768 01:44:20.720 --> 01:44:22.479 Eisenow was the last president. It wasn't all the old 1769 01:44:22.520 --> 01:44:27.560 and as this issue. But at any event, you know, 1770 01:44:27.680 --> 01:44:32.520 there was not uh what what whatever Truman thought about containment, 1771 01:44:32.880 --> 01:44:35.479 you know, however hawkish or conciliatory, he felt about the 1772 01:44:35.479 --> 01:44:39.119 Soviet Union. If he wanted to continue as president, he's 1773 01:44:39.159 --> 01:44:41.960 gonna have to take some gonna firm line, at least 1774 01:44:41.960 --> 01:44:44.199 what appeared to be such. He's gonna have to articulate 1775 01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:47.560 some kind of policy and make clear, you know what, 1776 01:44:48.319 --> 01:44:51.720 what the conflict diets were, that if the Soviets traversed them, 1777 01:44:53.039 --> 01:44:56.279 there would inevitably be war. And uh, a lot of that. 1778 01:44:56.720 --> 01:44:59.800 It was the experience of Korea and how NATO was formed. 1779 01:45:00.359 --> 01:45:02.279 And the next episode is gonna be the Native episode, 1780 01:45:02.279 --> 01:45:05.600 and it's hugely important, especially today. But I don't want 1781 01:45:05.680 --> 01:45:14.319 to jump into that now, but to continue the uh, 1782 01:45:16.880 --> 01:45:21.880 the the real kind of key incident, in my opinion, 1783 01:45:22.119 --> 01:45:25.560 or like a series of events, what started the Cold Wars. 1784 01:45:25.560 --> 01:45:29.520 The Berlin Blockade. Okay, and as as people probably imagine, 1785 01:45:29.560 --> 01:45:31.319 even people who you know don't reel out of the 1786 01:45:31.359 --> 01:45:36.439 Cold War, you know, West Berlin was one hundred and 1787 01:45:36.560 --> 01:45:41.800 ten miles into the Soviet occupation sector. Okay, it was. 1788 01:45:42.000 --> 01:45:45.199 It was. The entirety of Berlin was in with the game, 1789 01:45:45.239 --> 01:45:49.079 the DDR and the western half. The only way you 1790 01:45:49.119 --> 01:45:54.399 could access it civilian or military vehicles was by dedicated 1791 01:45:54.520 --> 01:45:57.920 access routes. There's roads for the duration of the Cold 1792 01:45:57.960 --> 01:46:02.920 War that were literally dedicated access routes for like US 1793 01:46:03.039 --> 01:46:06.720 military and civilian uh and West European traffic, you know, 1794 01:46:06.840 --> 01:46:08.800 to pass through the d d R, you know, to 1795 01:46:08.840 --> 01:46:11.319 reach West Berlin and then to return the dedicated access 1796 01:46:11.479 --> 01:46:16.640 road and that was the only traffic permitted there. And 1797 01:46:16.720 --> 01:46:18.920 that was the case early on. I mean they they 1798 01:46:19.279 --> 01:46:21.840 these routes were later you know, on a formalized like 1799 01:46:21.880 --> 01:46:25.159 structurally as a matter of law, but uh, it was uh, 1800 01:46:25.920 --> 01:46:30.239 the the Soviets weren't weren't simply allowing uh you know 1801 01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:36.239 open uh aggress and egress of Americans and British and 1802 01:46:36.279 --> 01:46:38.880 French civilian or military in and out of West Berlin. 1803 01:46:40.399 --> 01:46:46.279 But they weren't. They they did not outright blackaded it before. 1804 01:46:47.119 --> 01:46:49.159 But what was kind of the straw that broke the 1805 01:46:49.239 --> 01:46:54.039 camel's back was uh the uh as the United States 1806 01:46:54.199 --> 01:46:59.840 uh as uh as like as a true economic policy 1807 01:47:00.119 --> 01:47:02.079 kind of took shape, I mean just not a necessity. 1808 01:47:02.199 --> 01:47:05.119 I mean, this just proceeded, you know, a formal political 1809 01:47:05.239 --> 01:47:10.399 uh outlook, let alone policy on West Berlin. But uh, 1810 01:47:10.560 --> 01:47:12.840 I mean the economy had to rebuild because people, i mean, 1811 01:47:13.800 --> 01:47:18.359 their infrastructure was destroyed. You know people, people weren't being 1812 01:47:18.439 --> 01:47:25.600 fed what and it became, uh, it became imperative. First 1813 01:47:25.600 --> 01:47:30.920 and foremost introduced a viable currency, so the uh, the 1814 01:47:31.039 --> 01:47:34.920 United States introduced the Deutsche mark, which is interesting because 1815 01:47:34.960 --> 01:47:36.680 it's interesting, I mean, like a lot of people think 1816 01:47:36.720 --> 01:47:38.279 of the deutsch mark because I mean the deutsch park 1817 01:47:38.399 --> 01:47:41.399 was I mean the strongest currency in Europe and which 1818 01:47:41.720 --> 01:47:43.720 I saw him. I'm taking them engagement the other day. 1819 01:47:44.239 --> 01:47:47.880 You know, the Germans didn't sign the Matric Treaty because 1820 01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:49.399 they wanted to get off the deutsch Mark. It was 1821 01:47:49.439 --> 01:47:53.800 owing to political pressures and other things. But people have 1822 01:47:53.880 --> 01:47:56.600 an idea of it. It's just kind of us like 1823 01:47:58.000 --> 01:48:00.520 it's kindrad Aden now where you know, and and like 1824 01:48:00.640 --> 01:48:03.600 the and like the Buddhist Republic, like Deutsche Bank or whatever. 1825 01:48:04.279 --> 01:48:06.920 Just uh just saying like, okay, this is a successor 1826 01:48:07.000 --> 01:48:08.439 to the rice market. That is not what happened. It 1827 01:48:08.479 --> 01:48:11.439 was he was occupation and authorities who introduced it then 1828 01:48:12.279 --> 01:48:16.520 and very much UH sold the Nasson West Berlin government 1829 01:48:16.640 --> 01:48:20.920 on it. But uh, the Soviets went nuts uh when 1830 01:48:20.960 --> 01:48:24.239 this happened, and uh they banned uh they banned uh 1831 01:48:24.960 --> 01:48:29.199 there the Deutsche mark from uh the from the the 1832 01:48:29.319 --> 01:48:32.800 Eastern zone of occupation. And yes they were literally arresting 1833 01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:37.000 people for for for for using it. So in the 1834 01:48:37.039 --> 01:48:40.199 Eastern in the Eastern occupations or Berlin, people resorted using 1835 01:48:40.199 --> 01:48:42.840 cigarettes as a defective currency. Like no, lie, I think 1836 01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:44.880 I mean that quite literally shows you, like what a 1837 01:48:44.920 --> 01:48:48.560 prison society this was from from jump, I guess. I mean, 1838 01:48:48.560 --> 01:48:50.079 I don't even have a particularly putitive view of the 1839 01:48:50.159 --> 01:48:51.600 d d R, and I mean that that should be 1840 01:48:51.600 --> 01:48:57.039 clear to anybody. But the uh, the introduction of the 1841 01:48:57.079 --> 01:49:01.680 new currency, uh when when you know, before with we 1842 01:49:01.760 --> 01:49:04.239 would all in the in the course of all the 1843 01:49:04.279 --> 01:49:09.920 failed four powers uh administrative bodies. You know, the one 1844 01:49:10.000 --> 01:49:14.079 thing that the Soviets that opposed unconditionally was uh, you know, 1845 01:49:14.159 --> 01:49:17.159 the introduction of of a private enterprise in the East 1846 01:49:17.199 --> 01:49:19.960 occupation zone. Okay, because there's no way they could to 1847 01:49:20.000 --> 01:49:23.319 controlled that, I mean obviously, and it couldn't have Eventually 1848 01:49:23.600 --> 01:49:25.960 if the Soviets had played their cards right, I'm talking 1849 01:49:26.079 --> 01:49:28.520 like years later, if not decades, I think they could 1850 01:49:28.560 --> 01:49:31.920 have made East Berlin kind of like they could have 1851 01:49:32.239 --> 01:49:34.279 viewed it treated, they could have treated kind of like 1852 01:49:34.720 --> 01:49:37.359 you know that the Chicoms treat Hong Kong. But I 1853 01:49:37.439 --> 01:49:40.079 mean that was many years off, like they this could 1854 01:49:40.119 --> 01:49:42.239 not that was not in the in the cards in 1855 01:49:42.439 --> 01:49:46.159 ninety forty eight, especially not by you know, the shock 1856 01:49:46.239 --> 01:49:50.760 therapy is the introduction of of of this new currency 1857 01:49:50.880 --> 01:49:54.279 back by uh, you know, back by American dollars. Okay 1858 01:49:54.359 --> 01:49:58.439 that there's no way, but the uh it was, uh, 1859 01:49:59.560 --> 01:50:06.159 things changed. The deutschbeer was introduced on June seventeenth nine 1860 01:50:08.039 --> 01:50:11.359 or June eighteenth, June eighteenth, ninety forty eight. The next 1861 01:50:11.479 --> 01:50:16.319 day Soviet guards suddenly cracked down, you know, suddenly suddenly 1862 01:50:16.359 --> 01:50:19.720 people uh the relatively kind of free ingress into into 1863 01:50:19.760 --> 01:50:22.239 East Berlin. You know, people are being stopped and searched. 1864 01:50:22.239 --> 01:50:25.520 People are being turned back. You know, UH trains are 1865 01:50:25.560 --> 01:50:31.199 being halted, any freight shipments, any old water transport. They 1866 01:50:31.239 --> 01:50:34.039 had to secure special permission from the Soviet authorities, not 1867 01:50:34.079 --> 01:50:38.319 from the East Berlin authorities, from the Soviets themselves. The 1868 01:50:38.520 --> 01:50:45.479 uh and UH got in the final uh got got 1869 01:50:45.560 --> 01:50:48.279 to the point of no return. Three day subsequent, on 1870 01:50:48.399 --> 01:50:53.359 the twenty first, the Soviets halted a US military supply 1871 01:50:53.560 --> 01:50:59.920 terrain to Berlin and sent it back. So essentially, as 1872 01:51:00.000 --> 01:51:03.960 always refused resupply of the United States Army forces in 1873 01:51:04.039 --> 01:51:07.399 Europe and even the idea in Berlin because Berlin, again, 1874 01:51:07.479 --> 01:51:11.560 Berlin was one hundred and ten miles into the interior 1875 01:51:11.560 --> 01:51:14.960 of the d DR. There's only at that time there's 1876 01:51:15.000 --> 01:51:18.560 only about three thousand US combat troops on the ground, 1877 01:51:18.600 --> 01:51:23.920 about two thousand British. The Soviets had a comprable size 1878 01:51:23.920 --> 01:51:26.399 force in East Berlin, but the Soviets had three hundred 1879 01:51:26.439 --> 01:51:31.000 thousand forces and being throughout you know, Eastern Germany proper, so, 1880 01:51:31.039 --> 01:51:34.520 I mean, if they came to war, there's those those 1881 01:51:34.720 --> 01:51:37.079 guys in US Berlin were dead, you know, they they 1882 01:51:37.119 --> 01:51:39.199 would have been slaughtered. I mean, so that this was 1883 01:51:39.199 --> 01:51:46.199 an ominous thing, you know. And uh, that same day, 1884 01:51:46.840 --> 01:51:50.800 the twenty second in June, the Soy's announced that they 1885 01:51:50.880 --> 01:51:53.479 were introducing the East German Mark in their own zone 1886 01:51:53.479 --> 01:51:56.640 of occupation. It was to be the only only legitimate, 1887 01:51:57.439 --> 01:52:02.640 only legitimate currency. And uh, later on, which is really 1888 01:52:02.680 --> 01:52:07.640 really weird. In East Berlin, Uh, I'm talking like into 1889 01:52:07.640 --> 01:52:10.560 the eighties, there were specialty shops, there were there were 1890 01:52:10.600 --> 01:52:14.560 like duty free shops where non East German citizens were visiting, 1891 01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:17.640 they could they could buy stuff with foreign currency. Like 1892 01:52:17.720 --> 01:52:20.960 cigarettes or liquor or like or like other things like food, 1893 01:52:21.039 --> 01:52:25.760 like like like specialty food items. But but they were 1894 01:52:25.760 --> 01:52:28.520 like designated foreign currency shops. I mean kind of like 1895 01:52:28.600 --> 01:52:31.600 the the hoops that these Marxist Lennon states jumped through. 1896 01:52:31.800 --> 01:52:35.000 They got to maintain the fiction that their currencies were 1897 01:52:35.039 --> 01:52:37.600 actually worth something is really really weird, you know what 1898 01:52:37.600 --> 01:52:40.279 I mean. It's it's called like you know the old 1899 01:52:40.279 --> 01:52:45.000 movie Brazil, Uh say, attire movie. I think, yeah, yeah, 1900 01:52:45.159 --> 01:52:49.199 like yeah, it reminds me of that in some basic way. 1901 01:52:49.439 --> 01:52:59.399 But it was a June twenty fourth. Uh, the Soviets 1902 01:52:59.399 --> 01:53:02.199 severed land and in water connections between the non Soviet 1903 01:53:02.319 --> 01:53:07.119 zones in Berlin, so all all ground rail or water 1904 01:53:07.199 --> 01:53:09.880 traffic was cut off. Like nobody, nobody got in or 1905 01:53:09.880 --> 01:53:20.239 out of West Berlin. Okay, the uh the uh. They 1906 01:53:20.239 --> 01:53:24.279 couldn't cut off obviously like electricity and water, because that 1907 01:53:24.319 --> 01:53:26.079 would have been an own goal, because I mean Berlin 1908 01:53:26.199 --> 01:53:28.560 was quite literally just divided down the center with this 1909 01:53:28.640 --> 01:53:32.479 kind of artificial like what like on a battle map, 1910 01:53:32.520 --> 01:53:34.720 be considered like a salient, but it you know, there wasn't. 1911 01:53:35.560 --> 01:53:38.840 It was not. People sometimes had this idea that there 1912 01:53:38.880 --> 01:53:41.079 was something like rhyme or reason to how Berlin was divided, 1913 01:53:41.199 --> 01:53:42.680 like there was not. So I mean it's not that 1914 01:53:43.880 --> 01:53:45.880 you couldn't cut off utilities to half of Berlin but 1915 01:53:45.960 --> 01:53:49.640 not the other half, but just the same West Berlin 1916 01:53:50.199 --> 01:53:53.319 at the time, UH, at the time it was blockaded, 1917 01:53:53.920 --> 01:53:56.000 and that's just over like a month's where like it 1918 01:53:56.079 --> 01:53:58.399 was between like thirty five and forty five like days 1919 01:53:58.439 --> 01:54:01.000 with the food, something like fifty days where the coal. 1920 01:54:01.399 --> 01:54:07.039 It was like a very critical situation. And the entire 1921 01:54:08.159 --> 01:54:10.560 the entire United States Army just total forces and being 1922 01:54:11.000 --> 01:54:12.840 by ninty forty eight have been reduced about half a 1923 01:54:12.840 --> 01:54:18.000 million men. The UH total force in the Western sector 1924 01:54:18.399 --> 01:54:22.079 were about eight thousand, nine hundred Americans, about seventy six 1925 01:54:22.199 --> 01:54:27.199 hundred British, about six thousand French. UH there was only 1926 01:54:27.279 --> 01:54:30.039 thirty one thousand combat forces and all of West Germany. 1927 01:54:31.279 --> 01:54:33.439 So I mean, if it came to war like a 1928 01:54:33.760 --> 01:54:37.520 both Soviet attack, total Soviet military forces in the Soviet 1929 01:54:37.560 --> 01:54:42.960 sector were one point five million. Now, the United States 1930 01:54:43.079 --> 01:54:44.920 at that point that night still a monopoly and the 1931 01:54:44.920 --> 01:54:47.439 atomic bomb, but I mean, what do you if if 1932 01:54:47.640 --> 01:54:49.840 if if communist force is trewe to Berlin, what are 1933 01:54:49.840 --> 01:54:51.720 you gonna do you know, you're gonna, you gonna you 1934 01:54:51.800 --> 01:54:54.199 didn't you had launch an atomic assault in Berlin and 1935 01:54:54.279 --> 01:54:58.640 waste drooling people and all the Berliners. I mean this, this, 1936 01:54:58.800 --> 01:55:01.840 this was this was very very and frankly it was 1937 01:55:01.920 --> 01:55:04.560 a uh it was a gamble of the sort that 1938 01:55:04.680 --> 01:55:12.439 Stalin did not usually take. But interestingly it was Lucius Clay. 1939 01:55:12.840 --> 01:55:16.760 Uh he was a commander of a the U. S. 1940 01:55:16.800 --> 01:55:21.760 Occupation zone, you know, he said it was he said 1941 01:55:22.720 --> 01:55:26.319 Curtis LeMay. Interestingly, le May wanted to do a he 1942 01:55:26.439 --> 01:55:29.359 wanted to he wanted to mobilize atomic capable of B 1943 01:55:29.439 --> 01:55:33.239 twenty nines an assault the Soviet sector but you know, 1944 01:55:33.319 --> 01:55:36.840 like like nukeam you know, and uh and and mobilized 1945 01:55:36.840 --> 01:55:39.800 with infantry they were available in West Berlin, uh or 1946 01:55:39.840 --> 01:55:41.800 in West Germany, you know, and then to forcee delivery 1947 01:55:41.840 --> 01:55:44.920 West Berlin with them after after this, after a massive 1948 01:55:45.159 --> 01:55:48.720 atomic assault on Soviet forces with with B twenty nines. 1949 01:55:49.199 --> 01:55:54.239 But uh that uh that that that suggestion was not invited, obviously, 1950 01:55:54.840 --> 01:55:57.560 But I I it was not some kind of mad man. 1951 01:55:57.760 --> 01:56:01.119 I'm a I'm I'm quite fond of May in history, 1952 01:56:01.159 --> 01:56:04.399 and I think he's kind of unduly characterized as this 1953 01:56:04.560 --> 01:56:06.439 kind of like Jack d Ripper type, you know, like 1954 01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:14.119 in in Strange Love but UH loses Clay. Uh. It 1955 01:56:14.319 --> 01:56:19.159 was uh in concert with uh a lot a lot 1956 01:56:19.199 --> 01:56:21.199 of a lot of civilian types who you know, we're 1957 01:56:21.239 --> 01:56:25.520 still we're still kind of uh, we're still kind of 1958 01:56:25.600 --> 01:56:28.720 situated into into government and quasi military roles owing to 1959 01:56:29.640 --> 01:56:34.800 the war only being three years past. US Army Corps 1960 01:56:34.840 --> 01:56:40.720 engineers UH, US Army Air Forces. The Berlin airlift, UH 1961 01:56:42.159 --> 01:56:45.439 was really uh, it was really kind of an amazing 1962 01:56:46.039 --> 01:56:48.319 It was really kind of an amazing not just the 1963 01:56:48.760 --> 01:56:53.079 not just policy coup, but sort of strategic rooking of Stalin. 1964 01:56:53.199 --> 01:56:58.600 But it it it it Uh. It demonstrated the feasibility 1965 01:56:58.680 --> 01:57:02.640 of uh of airpower in uh and not just in 1966 01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:05.920 military capacities. I mean, which was obvious, but it it's 1967 01:57:05.920 --> 01:57:08.199 some ways weird. It sounded maybe more coporable with the 1968 01:57:08.319 --> 01:57:11.439 idea of you know, huge amounts of air traffic in 1969 01:57:11.520 --> 01:57:13.880 and out of a major city, you know, and there 1970 01:57:13.960 --> 01:57:16.159 there's there's a there's literally ideas before like oh there's 1971 01:57:16.199 --> 01:57:18.439 gonna be like pollution and noise and things like it. 1972 01:57:18.920 --> 01:57:21.399 You know, these like thousands and thousand, thousands of sorties 1973 01:57:22.840 --> 01:57:25.720 in and out of Berlin. Uh. That that kind of 1974 01:57:25.840 --> 01:57:29.479 changed things. Uh. And that's I mean, honestly, that's like 1975 01:57:29.520 --> 01:57:32.640 a lot of time. How people become habituated to do technologies. 1976 01:57:33.159 --> 01:57:35.199 It's not any kind of uh, it's not it's not 1977 01:57:35.239 --> 01:57:38.319 any kind of small thing. I mean, there was guys 1978 01:57:38.560 --> 01:57:41.039 like LeMay himself and these guys, ticularly guys who fought 1979 01:57:41.760 --> 01:57:44.199 with the Army Air Forces in the Pacific. You know, 1980 01:57:44.319 --> 01:57:47.880 they developed these uh they you know, they they developed 1981 01:57:47.920 --> 01:57:51.279 these uh, these these assault routes from the Mariannas Islands 1982 01:57:51.319 --> 01:57:54.600 and things, and uh, you know, there was the ex 1983 01:57:54.760 --> 01:57:57.439 pres experience of the airlift uh over the quote hump 1984 01:57:57.520 --> 01:58:00.279 of the Himalayas, you know, from India to China. But 1985 01:58:00.399 --> 01:58:03.359 it was military guys who kind of understood the potential 1986 01:58:03.399 --> 01:58:07.760 of air power it broad spectrum application, you know, military 1987 01:58:07.840 --> 01:58:10.720 and civilian and commercial use. Like the man in the 1988 01:58:10.720 --> 01:58:15.560 street really didn't. Then the Berlin Airlift. Uh, the Berlin 1989 01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:24.159 Airlift changed it. Uh it uh it uh. But le 1990 01:58:24.279 --> 01:58:29.399 May was he uh In terms of staffing decisions, he did, 1991 01:58:29.680 --> 01:58:32.359 and he did. He did end up appointing a lot 1992 01:58:32.720 --> 01:58:35.720 most of the key figures in executive roles who uh 1993 01:58:36.119 --> 01:58:39.680 who May the airlift happened General Joseph Smith not to 1994 01:58:39.760 --> 01:58:44.840 be confused, but like the father of Mormonism, he was 1995 01:58:45.439 --> 01:58:52.359 he'd been uh but Smith had been like there's a 1996 01:58:52.399 --> 01:58:54.920 huge amount of guys who served and served under le 1997 01:58:55.039 --> 01:58:59.840 May during the war who went on like prestige rolls 1998 01:58:59.880 --> 01:59:03.840 and including Robert McNamara or uh yeah McNamara. H Smith 1999 01:59:03.880 --> 01:59:06.720 had been uh la made chief of staff uh when 2000 01:59:06.800 --> 01:59:09.279 LaMDA B twenty nine command like in India and then 2001 01:59:09.319 --> 01:59:13.279 in the Mary honest, Uh you know loss Clay wasn't 2002 01:59:13.319 --> 01:59:15.199 under Lay's command. But I mean they you know, they 2003 01:59:15.279 --> 01:59:20.920 made acquaintance during the war. But the uh, it demonstrated, 2004 01:59:21.119 --> 01:59:26.079 it demonstrated what was possible. And it also uh it 2005 01:59:26.199 --> 01:59:28.520 was such a collaborative effort between I mean it had 2006 01:59:28.520 --> 01:59:29.720 to be even in the United States in the UK, 2007 01:59:30.319 --> 01:59:31.880 I mean, for better or worse, you know, like and 2008 01:59:31.920 --> 01:59:33.800 I'm not tragged in the UK. You know, the UK 2009 01:59:33.920 --> 01:59:36.479 remained airstrip one in a real way obviously because of 2010 01:59:36.520 --> 01:59:39.039 this and owing you know, like we like we talked 2011 01:59:39.039 --> 01:59:41.840 about is an FDR is kind of inconsistent and frankly, 2012 01:59:41.880 --> 01:59:46.119 Eve Pierant signaling about the status of U UK US 2013 01:59:46.199 --> 01:59:50.880 relations uh post uh bellam. It wasn't clear like what 2014 01:59:51.439 --> 01:59:53.720 role the UK would add here or whether or not 2015 01:59:53.920 --> 01:59:56.039 the United States would raise a finger to defend you know, 2016 01:59:56.279 --> 01:59:59.000 key strategic interest, not not just the interests of the empire, 2017 01:59:59.079 --> 02:00:02.760 which regulating an interest in the United States and in 2018 02:00:02.840 --> 02:00:05.960 preserving for any reason, but I mean the adults. So 2019 02:00:06.000 --> 02:00:09.600 I mean it was it solidified the quote I hate 2020 02:00:09.640 --> 02:00:11.960 the term special relationship. And there's all kinds of like 2021 02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:16.239 things that are are far far less than admirable that 2022 02:00:16.359 --> 02:00:20.800 that entails. But apparently, like uh collaborative strategic terms, it 2023 02:00:21.000 --> 02:00:26.960 solidified you know, the US UK UH concord, particularly as 2024 02:00:27.000 --> 02:00:31.800 regards UH operational coordination with UH with their forces, and 2025 02:00:31.880 --> 02:00:35.920 that's no small thing. And before the revolution in military 2026 02:00:35.960 --> 02:00:43.039 affairs and decades before contemporary commanding control, that was incredibly difficult. Uh. 2027 02:00:43.079 --> 02:00:45.640 They really can't be overstated. I mean, something like Berlin 2028 02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:48.680 AirLand would be the hell of a hell of an 2029 02:00:48.680 --> 02:00:51.439 operation today. But I mean you're talking about like you're 2030 02:00:51.439 --> 02:00:53.760 talking about like radios, the cutting edge of like commanding 2031 02:00:53.760 --> 02:00:56.159 control technology and nine forty eight, like think about this, 2032 02:00:56.960 --> 02:00:59.720 it's like stuff. So that's like it's son's less what 2033 02:01:00.439 --> 02:01:02.279 like the Rockie talkies he played with his kid in 2034 02:01:02.359 --> 02:01:07.000 like the early eighties, you know that. UH. But the 2035 02:01:08.520 --> 02:01:14.560 the UH that was UH, that was the UH that 2036 02:01:14.720 --> 02:01:17.119 was the that that was the opposite of the Cold 2037 02:01:17.159 --> 02:01:20.840 War in UH in in real terms. And I don't 2038 02:01:20.840 --> 02:01:22.720 I don't think anybody would. I don't think anyone would 2039 02:01:22.720 --> 02:01:26.800 dispute would dispute that. And there were shenanigans too, like 2040 02:01:26.880 --> 02:01:30.479 the there was one single municipal election for all of 2041 02:01:30.560 --> 02:01:36.319 Berlin in UH in ninety forty six, and the the UH, 2042 02:01:36.520 --> 02:01:39.279 the Socialist Unity Party didn't pull pathetically yourself and they 2043 02:01:39.279 --> 02:01:42.960 only polled like you know, and that that's what put 2044 02:01:42.960 --> 02:01:45.560 the Christian Democrats on the map, not just in West Berlin, 2045 02:01:45.640 --> 02:01:48.560 but it's like the Bundesst Republic like Conservative party, but 2046 02:01:48.680 --> 02:01:52.680 the Soviets basically they're basically they were like, you know, okay, 2047 02:01:52.680 --> 02:01:54.199 the hell with it, Like we're not we're not gonna 2048 02:01:54.199 --> 02:01:56.800 pursue a political solution, you know, with because obviously they 2049 02:01:56.800 --> 02:01:59.920 weren't gonna they weren't gonna get you know, because my 2050 02:02:00.119 --> 02:02:03.239 Berlin had been like the that had been like the 2051 02:02:03.520 --> 02:02:06.039 Communist art Land, you know, like in the our years, 2052 02:02:07.199 --> 02:02:10.199 I and people people post the question like not not 2053 02:02:10.319 --> 02:02:14.560 as curious like readers, but like historians who like are 2054 02:02:14.840 --> 02:02:17.920 deeply understand you know, uh rush of the era. They're like, 2055 02:02:17.960 --> 02:02:20.920 why did the Russians do this? And uh, it was 2056 02:02:20.960 --> 02:02:22.399 just to get the lay of the land. I'm telling you. 2057 02:02:22.600 --> 02:02:25.560 I mean that that's it makes total sense from Stalin's perspective. 2058 02:02:26.399 --> 02:02:30.000 Stalin was Stalin was what if Stalin's was a guy 2059 02:02:30.159 --> 02:02:31.880 even the personality type today because there him like a 2060 02:02:31.960 --> 02:02:35.359 dada junkie like Stalin was obsessed with informational awareness, you know, 2061 02:02:35.399 --> 02:02:37.760 like he really was. And it's I guarantee. You just said, like, well, 2062 02:02:37.840 --> 02:02:40.079 let's I mean, let's see, let's let's hold an actual election, 2063 02:02:40.279 --> 02:02:42.159 like a legit election, and let's see what was more 2064 02:02:42.159 --> 02:02:45.239 We got on the ground, Okay, about twenty twenty five percent, 2065 02:02:45.359 --> 02:02:47.600 that's fair. We can build coveredies around there. But this 2066 02:02:47.720 --> 02:02:50.960 is never gonna happen again, you know. But that's I 2067 02:02:51.000 --> 02:02:52.600 think we're coming about an hour. I think we'll stop 2068 02:02:52.680 --> 02:02:57.319 there and uh well, uh well, deep dive into I 2069 02:02:57.439 --> 02:02:59.439 realized this might have been the most exciting episode, but 2070 02:02:59.520 --> 02:03:03.239 it was important because otherwise we're we're dealing with a 2071 02:03:03.399 --> 02:03:06.079 huge phenomenon, and that being the cold war where no 2072 02:03:06.239 --> 02:03:09.920 actual kind of starting starting point or tab list has 2073 02:03:09.960 --> 02:03:13.159 been identified. But well, we're gonna get into the Korean War, 2074 02:03:13.279 --> 02:03:17.880 the formation of NATO, and it's the Truman doctrine next episode. 2075 02:03:20.199 --> 02:03:22.439 That sounds great plugs. 2076 02:03:22.720 --> 02:03:25.640 Well then yeah, we're I'm very happy to report that. 2077 02:03:25.880 --> 02:03:27.279 I mean you might see it. I've got I've got 2078 02:03:27.319 --> 02:03:30.840 this cool uh like backdrop. I'm in the Apocalypse. I 2079 02:03:31.279 --> 02:03:34.760 fought my production values. Uh and also like I got, 2080 02:03:34.920 --> 02:03:37.920 I got a video editor to join like our production team, 2081 02:03:37.960 --> 02:03:41.199 and he's great. Uh So the YouTube channel is finally 2082 02:03:41.239 --> 02:03:45.359 gonna launch. Uh. I I'm back on Twitter now because 2083 02:03:45.399 --> 02:03:51.239 Elon is apparently giving people like me a amnesty. Uh. 2084 02:03:51.680 --> 02:03:55.520 You can find me at Triskellian Jahad. The first T 2085 02:03:55.840 --> 02:03:59.239 is a number seven. You can find me on substack 2086 02:03:59.560 --> 02:04:05.000 uh at real Thomas seven seven seven. And I mean 2087 02:04:05.079 --> 02:04:07.239 you can find me, like I said when I in 2088 02:04:07.560 --> 02:04:09.800 in about it in a few days when I when 2089 02:04:09.800 --> 02:04:11.640 the unit vannel doesn' launch, I'll upload a lot of 2090 02:04:11.640 --> 02:04:15.000 this stuff there and it's uh Thomas TV in front 2091 02:04:15.000 --> 02:04:17.760 of these Thomas seven seven seven. I know that's corny 2092 02:04:17.800 --> 02:04:19.439 is supposed to be. It's a riff on Dave TV. 2093 02:04:19.600 --> 02:04:25.239 If you're old like me, you remember, well there's Dave TV. 2094 02:04:25.399 --> 02:04:28.560 I got Thomas TV. So yeah, but thank you, Pete. 2095 02:04:28.640 --> 02:04:30.239 I really really appreciate it. 2096 02:04:30.920 --> 02:04:33.600 No problem, we'll pick it up again next week. Thanks Thomas. 2097 02:04:35.680 --> 02:04:38.520 I want to welcome everyone back to The Pea Show, 2098 02:04:39.319 --> 02:04:42.079 Part three with Thomas seven seven seven. 2099 02:04:42.239 --> 02:04:44.680 How are you doing, Thomas, I'm very well. Thanks for 2100 02:04:44.800 --> 02:04:47.399 hosting me. There's a few things I wanted to talk 2101 02:04:47.399 --> 02:04:50.800 about today, and I want people to not be shy 2102 02:04:51.319 --> 02:04:54.000 if I'm being too scater shot, I'm not focused enough. 2103 02:04:55.279 --> 02:04:57.319 The Cold War is such a massive topic and it 2104 02:04:57.399 --> 02:05:01.560 touches and concerns all kinds of theory matters, you know, 2105 02:05:01.560 --> 02:05:06.319 which is kind of like my wheelhouse, but it also 2106 02:05:06.479 --> 02:05:10.239 you know, in terms of practical affairs and very quantifiable things, 2107 02:05:11.520 --> 02:05:13.920 you know. It it really kind of it created the 2108 02:05:13.960 --> 02:05:18.199 contemporary strategic landscape, you know, and it endured for it 2109 02:05:18.319 --> 02:05:22.960 endured for a century. So there's so much there. You've 2110 02:05:23.000 --> 02:05:24.840 kind of got to pick and choose what you emphasize. 2111 02:05:25.279 --> 02:05:28.840 I'm trying to go and lineit your order, because you know, 2112 02:05:28.960 --> 02:05:35.920 that's and whatever you're whatever you're trying to whatever, whatever 2113 02:05:35.920 --> 02:05:40.479 your emphasis is in in in revisionism, you know, you 2114 02:05:40.520 --> 02:05:42.399 need to be as rigorous as you would in any 2115 02:05:42.439 --> 02:05:45.880 other historical study. I mean that doesn't mean just you know, relating, 2116 02:05:46.159 --> 02:05:50.319 relaying facts and documenting events for its own sake. But 2117 02:05:51.479 --> 02:05:53.119 I don't just want to be taking off a list 2118 02:05:53.199 --> 02:05:56.279 of you know, what I consider key events or something. However, 2119 02:05:56.600 --> 02:05:59.439 if if I'm if I'm getting ahead of myself, or 2120 02:05:59.479 --> 02:06:01.680 if there doesn't to be a kind of tie that 2121 02:06:01.800 --> 02:06:05.760 binds to make the narrative listenable or intelligible, please tell 2122 02:06:05.880 --> 02:06:08.000 me in the comments, and not going to get upset. 2123 02:06:09.039 --> 02:06:11.800 What was on my mind a lot lately, especially because 2124 02:06:11.920 --> 02:06:13.960 in the morning a couple of days a week, uh, 2125 02:06:14.680 --> 02:06:17.039 my dad gives me a ride downtown for stuff I 2126 02:06:17.079 --> 02:06:19.800 gotta do. And you know, I listened to eight ninety 2127 02:06:19.840 --> 02:06:24.199 AM Talk Radio, which isn't it's not garbage like NPR, 2128 02:06:24.359 --> 02:06:26.640 but it's garbage of a different sort. And they have 2129 02:06:26.800 --> 02:06:30.800 all these polemical takes from you know, these like retired 2130 02:06:31.640 --> 02:06:34.920 you know, captains and majors, you know, like kind of 2131 02:06:34.960 --> 02:06:38.359 like third rate want to be war college types, you know, 2132 02:06:38.439 --> 02:06:40.119 as well as you know, some of these kind of 2133 02:06:40.119 --> 02:06:43.079 DeSantis type Republicans or kind of like the token conservatives 2134 02:06:43.239 --> 02:06:46.439 on on the panel on these morning talk radio programs. 2135 02:06:47.079 --> 02:06:49.039 You know, there's there's it's it's interesting the way these 2136 02:06:49.079 --> 02:06:52.359 guys talk about Russia. Okay, because Russia kind of like 2137 02:06:52.479 --> 02:06:55.319 dar al Islam. You're still allowed to say basically prejudice 2138 02:06:55.399 --> 02:06:57.760 things about it, you know, because it's not you know, 2139 02:06:58.479 --> 02:07:02.560 it's it's not part of that kind of protect it's 2140 02:07:02.600 --> 02:07:05.960 not conceptually you know, incorporated into you know, the the 2141 02:07:06.279 --> 02:07:12.079 victimology narrative. Okay. But also there's even as even if 2142 02:07:12.079 --> 02:07:14.720 they erastinated as people are in America, you know, especially 2143 02:07:14.720 --> 02:07:16.640 in terms of these you know, the kinds of people 2144 02:07:16.640 --> 02:07:20.560 who populate media, what remains the original media at least, 2145 02:07:21.720 --> 02:07:24.319 you know, even academic types who who couldn't tell you 2146 02:07:24.359 --> 02:07:26.840 anything about their own heritage and are not very racially 2147 02:07:26.880 --> 02:07:29.680 conscious at all. There remains this kind of atavistic fear 2148 02:07:29.760 --> 02:07:33.560 of Russia. And that's not just some that's not that's 2149 02:07:33.600 --> 02:07:36.279 not just some kind of hackneyed poetical take that people 2150 02:07:36.319 --> 02:07:40.000 like Lavrov you know, drop uh on the on the 2151 02:07:40.039 --> 02:07:42.479 floor of the you on General Assembly in order to 2152 02:07:42.920 --> 02:07:46.319 make a point or to scandalize people. That really is true, 2153 02:07:46.920 --> 02:07:50.119 and to understand the Cold War, you've got to understand 2154 02:07:50.159 --> 02:07:53.119 You've got to really understand why that came about. I've 2155 02:07:53.159 --> 02:07:56.000 been reading lately. There's this book by Michael Proudon and 2156 02:07:56.159 --> 02:07:59.560 it was released interview, different titles, The Value I've got, 2157 02:07:59.560 --> 02:08:03.399 it's under the titled The Mongol Empire. There's another one. 2158 02:08:03.520 --> 02:08:07.439 There's another addition, identical book, you know, called called Storm 2159 02:08:07.479 --> 02:08:10.560 out of Asia. But what it's all about is it's 2160 02:08:10.560 --> 02:08:13.680 all about when the Europeans made first contact with the Mongols, 2161 02:08:13.760 --> 02:08:16.720 you know, in the thirteenth century a d okay. Now 2162 02:08:16.760 --> 02:08:20.000 why was this so significant? Well, you know, the Europeans 2163 02:08:20.039 --> 02:08:23.000 since ten ninety five and intermediately been at war with U, 2164 02:08:23.359 --> 02:08:28.000 with the Saracens, you know, at Salahadeen and his descendants. 2165 02:08:28.520 --> 02:08:30.920 You know that this was a crusading ero, okay. And 2166 02:08:32.199 --> 02:08:34.119 what was fascining about that is that it was the 2167 02:08:34.199 --> 02:08:36.560 only time until I me, unless you count you know, 2168 02:08:36.600 --> 02:08:39.199 the Napoleonic Wars, which were kind of more convenience than 2169 02:08:39.920 --> 02:08:43.840 than than than you know, than a unity of faith obviously, 2170 02:08:44.159 --> 02:08:45.520 you know, it's really the only time we had it, 2171 02:08:45.600 --> 02:08:48.119 you know, truly European armies, you know, going off to 2172 02:08:48.159 --> 02:08:52.279 the war against the common civilizational enemy. However, some of 2173 02:08:52.439 --> 02:08:54.720 that kind of concord had been had been reached with 2174 02:08:54.760 --> 02:08:58.760 the Mauslims. Okay, I mean sometimes, you know, sometimes there's 2175 02:08:58.800 --> 02:09:01.560 relative peace that reigned, you know in UH, in the 2176 02:09:01.640 --> 02:09:04.159 Kingdom of Jerusalem. You know, after that Battle of hot 2177 02:09:04.199 --> 02:09:09.720 Team and UH the Moslim conquest, things deteriorated, but you know, 2178 02:09:09.760 --> 02:09:11.840 there's just kind of like an ongoing thing. But in 2179 02:09:11.920 --> 02:09:13.880 the twelve you know, in the twelve twenty, something of 2180 02:09:13.920 --> 02:09:16.479 these rumors came about that there was this huge marauding army. 2181 02:09:16.520 --> 02:09:19.039 It was just slaughtering everything in its path, and a 2182 02:09:19.119 --> 02:09:21.760 lot of people in monasteries and monks, they're like, well, 2183 02:09:21.880 --> 02:09:23.520 you know this, this, this is the scourge of God 2184 02:09:23.560 --> 02:09:26.680 and he's punishing you know, the infidel Moslims, but he's 2185 02:09:26.680 --> 02:09:29.880 also punishing these pagan tribes to populate the step, you know, 2186 02:09:29.920 --> 02:09:32.960 because all these barbarian people are literally being driven west 2187 02:09:33.399 --> 02:09:35.880 to the European frontier and saying, you know, there's these 2188 02:09:35.960 --> 02:09:38.840 men on horses, there's long torsos, and they kill everybody. 2189 02:09:39.319 --> 02:09:41.439 You know, when they like those left alive, you know, 2190 02:09:41.520 --> 02:09:43.439 they take the women as slaves and they you know, 2191 02:09:43.479 --> 02:09:46.359 they force the men into you know, into into Duty 2192 02:09:46.399 --> 02:09:48.399 of Janis series. Basically you know, and they and they 2193 02:09:48.520 --> 02:09:50.279 drive them, you know, out front, and you know they 2194 02:09:50.399 --> 02:09:52.520 take they take the first blow when we when they 2195 02:09:52.600 --> 02:09:54.840 encounter their enemies, and their enemies are everybody but them. 2196 02:09:55.199 --> 02:09:57.239 And some people thought this was just nonsense, say, these 2197 02:09:57.239 --> 02:09:59.920 are primitive Pagans, they're you know, they they don't know 2198 02:10:00.039 --> 02:10:02.079 that hell are talking about. They probably smet the Saracens, 2199 02:10:02.800 --> 02:10:05.880 you know. Other people said there were Jews who said, like, well, 2200 02:10:05.960 --> 02:10:08.159 you know King David his combit, you know, and he's 2201 02:10:08.199 --> 02:10:10.159 coming to punish you for the way you've treated the Jews, 2202 02:10:10.199 --> 02:10:12.359 you know, and he's coming to punish Jews too, who've 2203 02:10:12.439 --> 02:10:15.279 like forgotten God. Well, obviously with none of those things 2204 02:10:15.439 --> 02:10:21.359 was the Mongols, okay, and the association of the East 2205 02:10:21.479 --> 02:10:25.800 with this barbarian element that never really left okay, And 2206 02:10:26.039 --> 02:10:28.039 I mean it never really left in the European cultural 2207 02:10:28.159 --> 02:10:32.039 mind and conceptual horizon. But it also never really left 2208 02:10:32.119 --> 02:10:34.359 literally okay, Like I'm not I'm not saying Russians are 2209 02:10:34.399 --> 02:10:39.680 a bunch of Mongols or barbarians. But there was this 2210 02:10:39.840 --> 02:10:45.800 this massive, uh, this massive monolithic force emerge it from 2211 02:10:45.880 --> 02:10:48.439 the step that was just destroying everything in his path, 2212 02:10:48.479 --> 02:10:52.039 assimilating everything that was left alive or left standing like 2213 02:10:52.159 --> 02:10:56.119 literally into its into its structure. You know. That's that's 2214 02:10:56.159 --> 02:11:01.600 really what the Soviet Union was. Okay. And at the 2215 02:11:02.159 --> 02:11:06.920 at the at the at the s s uh Yunker schools, 2216 02:11:07.479 --> 02:11:12.279 the uh, the Proudings book was actually given officers, okay, 2217 02:11:13.560 --> 02:11:16.600 and that that significant. Himler didn't assign Himler and Paul Houser. 2218 02:11:16.960 --> 02:11:19.199 They didn't have people reading the International jew They didn't 2219 02:11:19.199 --> 02:11:21.520 have people reading Clouds of Wits. I mean, people didn't 2220 02:11:21.520 --> 02:11:23.159 read Clouds with was Py the curriculum. But you know, 2221 02:11:23.159 --> 02:11:26.159 the book you got my graduate graduation was this book 2222 02:11:26.199 --> 02:11:29.399 by proud him Both because it's you know, it's always 2223 02:11:29.520 --> 02:11:32.600 it's saying, you know this, this is your enemy. You know, 2224 02:11:32.680 --> 02:11:35.479 this is what you know. You're you're in You're you're 2225 02:11:35.520 --> 02:11:38.399 a knight of the new uh Blood Order of of 2226 02:11:38.720 --> 02:11:40.920 of Europe, you know, in the s s and this 2227 02:11:41.079 --> 02:11:43.079 is what we're fighting against, you know, because where the 2228 02:11:43.159 --> 02:11:46.279 where the we're the watch on the Rhine. Okay. But 2229 02:11:46.399 --> 02:11:52.319 also after you know, three hundred years of of the 2230 02:11:52.399 --> 02:11:58.720 Westphalian paradigm, it you know, uh, the reality of true 2231 02:11:58.800 --> 02:12:03.319 total war was was in and again okay, and uh 2232 02:12:04.279 --> 02:12:08.000 that they cannot be emphasized enough, and even it sounds corny, 2233 02:12:08.439 --> 02:12:12.079 but you can glean things from you know, uh, you can, 2234 02:12:12.119 --> 02:12:14.680 you can you can discern symbolic psychological things even in 2235 02:12:14.760 --> 02:12:17.840 kind of trashy media. You know, and I watch I 2236 02:12:17.880 --> 02:12:19.319 didn't watched it in years. You know, I like a 2237 02:12:19.319 --> 02:12:21.399 lot when I was a little kid. You know, Red Dawn, 2238 02:12:21.640 --> 02:12:24.359 you know, with Patrick Swayze and see Thomas Howell. You know, 2239 02:12:24.439 --> 02:12:27.399 the that's actually kind of an interesting movie, like as 2240 02:12:27.439 --> 02:12:30.119 a period piece mostly, but you don't like the black 2241 02:12:30.239 --> 02:12:33.319 history teacher when when the when when when the town 2242 02:12:33.399 --> 02:12:36.119 first gets assaulted by like the Soviets and the Sandinistas 2243 02:12:36.119 --> 02:12:40.199 and the Cubanos. He's teaching a class about gang is Khan, okay, 2244 02:12:40.720 --> 02:12:42.600 And that's like not an accident, there's really like on 2245 02:12:42.760 --> 02:12:47.560 the nose, okay. But so when you consider that, you 2246 02:12:47.600 --> 02:12:49.720 consider that, you know, Europe is literally this kind of 2247 02:12:49.760 --> 02:12:55.319 indefensible peninsula that you know it that that's the way 2248 02:12:55.359 --> 02:12:57.680 you got to understand. That's way you gotta understand the 2249 02:12:57.680 --> 02:13:00.000 Second World War. That's way you've got to understand essentially 2250 02:13:00.239 --> 02:13:07.439 the entire the entire nuh, the entire European uh military 2251 02:13:07.479 --> 02:13:12.239 orientation and uh, the you know, and the and uh 2252 02:13:14.119 --> 02:13:16.600 and the the this this you know, the the striving 2253 02:13:16.680 --> 02:13:21.840 eastward of UH of Teutonic peoples. And in the Cold War, 2254 02:13:22.079 --> 02:13:25.520 this was very much kind of transposed to America. Okay, 2255 02:13:25.880 --> 02:13:28.399 there was there was very much a racial component here. Okay, 2256 02:13:28.479 --> 02:13:30.439 even though there were strange things going on in America. 2257 02:13:30.960 --> 02:13:33.039 You know, there was the the fact that the Soviet 2258 02:13:33.079 --> 02:13:36.960 Union became, you know, a superpower and without annihilated oh 2259 02:13:37.119 --> 02:13:39.520 do uh oh to the United States align with it, 2260 02:13:39.680 --> 02:13:45.119 to to crush uh imperium Europa with you know, under 2261 02:13:45.159 --> 02:13:48.720 the under the German Reich. But you know, nevertheless, uh, 2262 02:13:49.439 --> 02:13:52.520 you know, these uh, the these things re emerge again 2263 02:13:52.600 --> 02:13:56.000 and again. It's it's almost like a it's almost like 2264 02:13:56.039 --> 02:13:59.159 a natural structural form that like snatched back in a place, 2265 02:13:59.279 --> 02:14:01.840 even when people try to corrupt it or mold it 2266 02:14:01.920 --> 02:14:09.640 into different configurations. But I uh, what I want to 2267 02:14:09.640 --> 02:14:13.520 talk about today is the war in Korea, and this 2268 02:14:13.680 --> 02:14:17.479 bear is directly what we're talking about. And the Cold 2269 02:14:17.600 --> 02:14:20.159 War actually was fought in terms of hot war. I 2270 02:14:20.199 --> 02:14:22.079 mean all kinds of ledgered Maine, and there was there 2271 02:14:22.159 --> 02:14:25.239 was true violence in Europe of but it was all 2272 02:14:25.319 --> 02:14:26.920 I mean, it was never there was. There was never 2273 02:14:26.920 --> 02:14:29.239 a general war fought in Europe during the Cold War. 2274 02:14:30.199 --> 02:14:34.239 There was. The Cold War was literally grew hot in Asia. Okay, 2275 02:14:34.279 --> 02:14:36.000 the Cold War where there was lead in the air 2276 02:14:37.479 --> 02:14:41.439 between you know, mass conventional forces. They have been in Asia, 2277 02:14:41.880 --> 02:14:45.720 and it's not accidental, and uh that's not uh, it 2278 02:14:45.840 --> 02:14:47.600 wasn't just a matter of you know, well, you know 2279 02:14:47.720 --> 02:14:50.439 this is a place where this is a place, these 2280 02:14:50.479 --> 02:14:52.479 are this is a theater where you know, the Soviets, 2281 02:14:52.520 --> 02:14:55.359 the Americans respect that we can push and not resk, 2282 02:14:55.399 --> 02:14:59.560 triggering you know, the the apocalyptic conflict diad that's gonna 2283 02:14:59.600 --> 02:15:05.239 lead to general nuclear war. And interestingly or fascinatingly, in 2284 02:15:05.319 --> 02:15:07.039 the final phase of the Cold War, which will get 2285 02:15:07.079 --> 02:15:13.640 into later, the real catalysts behind Reagan's five hunder I 2286 02:15:13.640 --> 02:15:16.600 mean it's actually James Webbs, but I mean the the 2287 02:15:16.640 --> 02:15:20.520 Reagan Administration's six hundred ship Navy was that they wanted. 2288 02:15:20.960 --> 02:15:25.880 They wanted nuclear battle platforms and and and and supporting 2289 02:15:26.359 --> 02:15:29.399 the fleet elements. You know, it was essentially like forest forest. 2290 02:15:29.399 --> 02:15:31.199 The Soviet Union War was uppack to fight a two 2291 02:15:31.279 --> 02:15:33.359 front nuclear war, if you can think of nuclear wars 2292 02:15:33.399 --> 02:15:37.560 having a front, a rather two theater nuclear War and this, uh, 2293 02:15:37.920 --> 02:15:43.279 this caused a serious problem from Frank drop of Uh 2294 02:15:43.479 --> 02:15:47.319 a special I mean bresident of it began really under Carter, 2295 02:15:47.479 --> 02:15:49.920 but that that's one of the things that really really 2296 02:15:50.039 --> 02:15:54.279 kind of rooked the Soviet ambitions. Uh. It wasn't just 2297 02:15:54.399 --> 02:15:57.199 the revolution of military affairs and and like the technological 2298 02:15:57.319 --> 02:16:01.840 edge being lost, but getting into the Korean War. And 2299 02:16:01.920 --> 02:16:05.039 again I hope those in't two like scatter Shot. We 2300 02:16:05.079 --> 02:16:08.760 got into the Berlin Airlift last episode, you know, and 2301 02:16:09.119 --> 02:16:11.479 in the Cold War, you know, the Cold War, the 2302 02:16:11.560 --> 02:16:14.039 Cold War it formally kicked off by then, okay, and 2303 02:16:14.079 --> 02:16:17.399 then in nineteen forty nine, the story has developed their 2304 02:16:17.399 --> 02:16:20.239 own atomic capability. You know. We can get into the 2305 02:16:20.359 --> 02:16:24.319 Rosenbergs maybe next episode if you want. I I didn't 2306 02:16:24.359 --> 02:16:25.800 know if you wanted to cover the act. It's kind 2307 02:16:25.800 --> 02:16:27.840 of controversy to you and people's strong feelings about it. 2308 02:16:28.039 --> 02:16:28.840 Oh, I don't know. 2309 02:16:29.159 --> 02:16:31.199 No, we need to cover that, Okay, we'll do that 2310 02:16:31.319 --> 02:16:34.520 next next episode. We're gonna deal with the early espionage issues. 2311 02:16:34.559 --> 02:16:37.639 We're gonna deal with like the Cambridge Five and the 2312 02:16:37.760 --> 02:16:42.520 Rosenbergs and Alger Hisss and Roy Khane who prosecuted the Rosenbergs. 2313 02:16:43.000 --> 02:16:45.159 But I want to stay to the Korean War in 2314 02:16:45.200 --> 02:16:48.479 the Orient with this episode. So here we are in 2315 02:16:48.559 --> 02:16:57.079 nineteen fifty Secretaria State Dean Atchison, who he's there's there's 2316 02:16:57.079 --> 02:16:58.840 been a lot of revisionist takes on him that are 2317 02:16:58.840 --> 02:17:04.360 pretty unflattering. But Adisin was kind of a peculiar. I 2318 02:17:04.840 --> 02:17:08.360 think it was kind of anna feat uh aristocrat type 2319 02:17:08.559 --> 02:17:12.239 of the sore of the worst source. But I mean 2320 02:17:12.280 --> 02:17:16.559 that's just my opinion. There's definitely even worse chief diplomats, 2321 02:17:17.399 --> 02:17:22.159 but uh Absison's great blunder. I think it's inarguable. In 2322 02:17:22.239 --> 02:17:26.799 January thirteen, nineteen fifty, you know, mind you this was 2323 02:17:26.840 --> 02:17:30.200 as we talked about, uh, we talked about, you know, 2324 02:17:30.680 --> 02:17:34.120 the desire to draw down conventional forces and rely upon 2325 02:17:34.200 --> 02:17:36.680 that you know, the the the atomic bomb, you know, 2326 02:17:36.760 --> 02:17:40.000 to resolve basically military exigencies, you know, in the threat 2327 02:17:40.040 --> 02:17:44.680 of massive escalation. That this was creating problems as you know, 2328 02:17:44.760 --> 02:17:47.959 the Cold War uh be you know, began to heat 2329 02:17:48.040 --> 02:17:50.440 up in earnest quite literally, but there had not yet 2330 02:17:50.520 --> 02:17:55.000 been an open challenge to uh to Truman. Okay, there 2331 02:17:55.040 --> 02:17:57.120 had not yet been uh, I mean, other than the 2332 02:17:57.159 --> 02:18:01.639 Berlin Blockade, which was I I mean that that was 2333 02:18:01.719 --> 02:18:04.360 that was not a conventional provocation, you know, owing to 2334 02:18:04.399 --> 02:18:08.319 the bizarre occupation regime and the fact that you know, 2335 02:18:08.440 --> 02:18:11.600 Germany was permanently in limbo as a matter of law, 2336 02:18:12.680 --> 02:18:15.479 you know, because there it was, it was quite literally 2337 02:18:15.520 --> 02:18:18.719 under occupation authority, and there was no there was there 2338 02:18:18.799 --> 02:18:20.799 was no end in sight and no pathway to a 2339 02:18:20.840 --> 02:18:25.719 permanent peace treaty emergent. But the the UH, you know, 2340 02:18:25.799 --> 02:18:30.159 the first true kind of challenge UH to UH to 2341 02:18:30.440 --> 02:18:34.840 UH to American burgeening American and Germany was the Korean War. 2342 02:18:35.440 --> 02:18:38.079 And I think of the Korean War and why it 2343 02:18:38.280 --> 02:18:43.719 happened UH as somewhat analogous to why UH the First 2344 02:18:43.799 --> 02:18:47.440 Gulf War happened. It had to do with incorrect signaling 2345 02:18:48.360 --> 02:18:53.760 by UH, by by US diplomats. Like when I say incorrect, 2346 02:18:53.799 --> 02:18:58.520 there really is a correct way to not disclose UH intentions. Well, 2347 02:18:58.520 --> 02:19:02.319 at the same time, the turn reckless acts by you know, 2348 02:19:04.760 --> 02:19:09.959 by national enemies, and that's deplomats must have instincts to 2349 02:19:10.079 --> 02:19:15.360 know when to resort to such measures and must have 2350 02:19:15.479 --> 02:19:18.479 a basic understanding of how to code their language such 2351 02:19:18.559 --> 02:19:21.879 that you know, the signals can be clearly read while 2352 02:19:21.959 --> 02:19:28.000 still you know, keeping keeping potential, keeping intentions, actual potential, 2353 02:19:28.360 --> 02:19:31.200 you know, relatively hidden as need be a sustained credibility. 2354 02:19:31.879 --> 02:19:35.360 But Danaison certainly did not do that. What Deanagison did 2355 02:19:35.479 --> 02:19:40.399 on January thirteenth, nineteen fifty, he addressed he should have 2356 02:19:40.440 --> 02:19:43.040 speech to the National Press Club, and what he said 2357 02:19:43.159 --> 02:19:45.639 was this, When he was asked about, you know, what 2358 02:19:45.760 --> 02:19:49.000 the policy was towards the communists in Asia, he said, Look, 2359 02:19:49.399 --> 02:19:52.200 he literally said, there's a defensive perimeter in Asia. He said, 2360 02:19:52.239 --> 02:19:55.639 the extens from Japan, do the Reikus Islands down to 2361 02:19:55.719 --> 02:19:58.479 the Philippines in the south. So quite literally, if you 2362 02:19:58.520 --> 02:20:00.520 look at a map that consumes kind of a line 2363 02:20:00.680 --> 02:20:06.200 through the Pacific, Okay, within which I mean obviously you know, 2364 02:20:06.360 --> 02:20:09.079 he like you, has sea lanes and things, but basically 2365 02:20:09.399 --> 02:20:11.559 it's it's it's like a it's quite literally like a 2366 02:20:11.639 --> 02:20:20.840 containment barrier, uh, you know, uh, bulwark against the against 2367 02:20:20.920 --> 02:20:24.639 the against the Asian land mass. Okay. Now, Stalin was 2368 02:20:24.680 --> 02:20:28.239 paying attention to this, as was Mao, And the way 2369 02:20:28.319 --> 02:20:30.360 they read that was that, well, you know, despite the 2370 02:20:30.479 --> 02:20:33.399 fact that Korea was under similar occupation in Germany, you know, 2371 02:20:33.479 --> 02:20:37.840 you had you had a you know, you had you 2372 02:20:37.920 --> 02:20:42.399 had a Soviet occupied UH. North you had a briefly 2373 02:20:42.520 --> 02:20:47.319 American and Allied occupied in the south, and then north 2374 02:20:47.360 --> 02:20:50.360 you had this UH kind of cargo cult Stalinist regime. 2375 02:20:50.920 --> 02:20:53.520 And in the South you basically had a military dictator ship, 2376 02:20:53.600 --> 02:20:57.680 but the military that was running it was not particularly capable. However, 2377 02:20:57.719 --> 02:20:59.520 there was not forces in being on the ground in 2378 02:20:59.600 --> 02:21:04.200 the South. UH, they had THEYD left Okay, and UH 2379 02:21:05.280 --> 02:21:10.959 the UH. The the understanding was that America is not 2380 02:21:11.000 --> 02:21:15.280 gonna defend Korea. Okay. Now why Stalin and Mao comed 2381 02:21:15.360 --> 02:21:20.120 in Korea is UH is what's significant because Korea was 2382 02:21:20.239 --> 02:21:25.000 not UH in Germany. And the reason why Korea today 2383 02:21:25.239 --> 02:21:30.760 remains dysfunctional is because it UH. It borders UH both 2384 02:21:30.879 --> 02:21:34.600 China and Russia, and so the striking distance of letty 2385 02:21:34.680 --> 02:21:39.159 vas stock it's a stones throw away from Japan. Like 2386 02:21:39.280 --> 02:21:42.159 quite literally, nobody wants to United Korea, but the Koreans, 2387 02:21:42.399 --> 02:21:46.760 you know, America doesn't. The Russians and Chinese will not tolerated. 2388 02:21:46.840 --> 02:21:52.559 Japan would not tolerated. This both supersedes and transcends UH 2389 02:21:52.719 --> 02:21:57.280 Cold War rivalries now obsolescent, but also UH but but 2390 02:21:57.440 --> 02:22:00.280 also as far less of a of a of a 2391 02:22:00.360 --> 02:22:05.920 potential conflict. Diad that that that could result in true 2392 02:22:06.639 --> 02:22:10.680 catastrophic escalation. It became that way because I'm a carthon. 2393 02:22:10.719 --> 02:22:15.360 We'll get to that in a minute. Okay, Now what 2394 02:22:15.559 --> 02:22:22.159 happened months later was on June twenty fifth, UH, the 2395 02:22:22.239 --> 02:22:25.159 North North Prey launched and massive assault of of the South. 2396 02:22:26.319 --> 02:22:30.040 It was a Sunday. President Truman. UH was at home 2397 02:22:30.079 --> 02:22:33.239 in Missouri, away from Washington. Dean Atchison was in Maryland 2398 02:22:33.319 --> 02:22:38.280 at his gentleman's farm. Henry Nis, who people the name 2399 02:22:38.319 --> 02:22:41.760 people were recognized from our earlier episodes did so, was 2400 02:22:41.799 --> 02:22:44.840 the Secretary of Defense. He was not a fishing trip 2401 02:22:44.920 --> 02:22:48.079 in New Brunswick, but nitsad. Decades later, he was the 2402 02:22:48.120 --> 02:22:52.319 principal architect of the Team Be exercise. He was a 2403 02:22:52.440 --> 02:22:58.000 huge early neo conservative, okay, massive extreme Cold War hawk. 2404 02:22:59.639 --> 02:23:02.479 He was the author of National Security Council Paper sixty eight, 2405 02:23:02.680 --> 02:23:07.120 which was drafted in April of nineteen fifty, and that 2406 02:23:07.239 --> 02:23:11.200 was one of the most important policy blueprints or policy 2407 02:23:11.239 --> 02:23:16.360 statements of the Cold War. It provided it provided the 2408 02:23:16.479 --> 02:23:21.479 roadmap for the permanent militarization of America of both conventional 2409 02:23:21.600 --> 02:23:25.719 forces and in strategic nuclear forces. From you know from 2410 02:23:25.920 --> 02:23:29.520 the time it was written the ninety nineteen fifty until 2411 02:23:29.680 --> 02:23:32.600 you know, the Soviet Union collapsed, you know, forty years later. 2412 02:23:34.559 --> 02:23:37.440 So he was a hugely significant guy, Okay, and uh, 2413 02:23:38.239 --> 02:23:42.000 his first, uh, his first kind of challenge political nature 2414 02:23:42.719 --> 02:23:46.399 was uh, was was butting heads with with you know, 2415 02:23:46.719 --> 02:23:50.200 mister George Kennan. And we we discussed earlier. I mean 2416 02:23:50.319 --> 02:23:53.479 Kennon obviously from what we discussed about him, and you know, 2417 02:23:53.639 --> 02:23:56.399 from what we've talked about or is this kind of 2418 02:23:56.440 --> 02:23:59.120 basic traits and character and it's kind of it's kind 2419 02:23:59.159 --> 02:24:03.079 of decency in his basic sense of caution. I mean, 2420 02:24:03.120 --> 02:24:05.000 he believed very much in strong defense, but you know, 2421 02:24:05.079 --> 02:24:08.000 the cautious application of force and the service they're in. 2422 02:24:10.479 --> 02:24:12.840 Kenn was one of the few men whatever people can say. 2423 02:24:12.879 --> 02:24:14.959 I mean, we'll get into why this isn't a minute. 2424 02:24:15.000 --> 02:24:17.360 But Kenan was really savaged in the era, in the 2425 02:24:17.440 --> 02:24:21.399 epoch by his opponents, including people like Mitza, you know, 2426 02:24:21.479 --> 02:24:25.200 for being you know, soft on communism and conciliatory towards 2427 02:24:25.239 --> 02:24:28.639 the Soviets. But kenn Uh, he had been adamant for 2428 02:24:28.879 --> 02:24:33.520 once prior to to the June twenty fifth that there 2429 02:24:33.559 --> 02:24:36.920 were definite indicators of communist military activity in Asia and 2430 02:24:37.000 --> 02:24:39.319 that they were going to assault somewhere. It was not 2431 02:24:39.479 --> 02:24:42.760 clear where the theater would be for such activity and 2432 02:24:42.879 --> 02:24:45.959 what the point of concentration would be and what would 2433 02:24:45.959 --> 02:24:50.479 be prioritized they're in but MacArthur staven Tokyo just did not. 2434 02:24:50.559 --> 02:24:52.559 They just disregard him entirely. They're like, this guy's in 2435 02:24:52.559 --> 02:24:54.959 the egg ahead, he's never been in uniform. He isn't 2436 02:24:54.959 --> 02:24:57.520 what the fuck he's talking about, and he can't even 2437 02:24:57.600 --> 02:25:00.559 you know, provide us conceptual model of like where this 2438 02:25:00.680 --> 02:25:03.319 is gonna jump off, you know, and what what we're 2439 02:25:03.360 --> 02:25:06.600 gonna forces, it's gonna entail, you know, and what and 2440 02:25:07.159 --> 02:25:10.040 what what what feeder is gonna be the primary area 2441 02:25:10.040 --> 02:25:15.760 of operation. So they totally disregarded it. Okay, but this 2442 02:25:16.000 --> 02:25:17.520 uh to give you an idea of kind of how 2443 02:25:17.600 --> 02:25:24.719 fubar the National security Estalishman was neither Truman, nor uh 2444 02:25:25.239 --> 02:25:30.280 Nis nor Atchison. It wasn't until they returned to Washington 2445 02:25:30.360 --> 02:25:34.559 from their respective you know, vacations that uh they found 2446 02:25:34.600 --> 02:25:36.399 out that Career was going to ressault because they saw 2447 02:25:36.440 --> 02:25:40.239 the newspaper lines. Okay, there was no structure in place 2448 02:25:40.360 --> 02:25:46.760 of of you know, notifying national command authorities of a 2449 02:25:46.799 --> 02:25:51.079 wartime emergency and branded. I mean, this was that this 2450 02:25:51.319 --> 02:25:53.680 was the dawn of the atomic age. But it doesn't matter. 2451 02:25:53.799 --> 02:25:56.360 I mean a you know, America, for better or worse, 2452 02:25:56.440 --> 02:25:59.920 had had had just come off of a total mobilization 2453 02:26:00.079 --> 02:26:02.559 and then you know, a mansion two front war. It 2454 02:26:02.639 --> 02:26:08.120 was unprecedented in scope, scale and intensity, so impossible to 2455 02:26:08.639 --> 02:26:13.639 rationalize as it is. That's the way things were when 2456 02:26:13.760 --> 02:26:17.799 Kenon uh arright that night. Kennon Ken at this point 2457 02:26:17.879 --> 02:26:22.239 was something of a minister without portfolio. Okay, Uh, he was. 2458 02:26:22.440 --> 02:26:24.479 He'd been dismissed, as you know, the kind of quasi 2459 02:26:24.600 --> 02:26:28.159 regent of the Department of State in Moscow. He'd ended 2460 02:26:28.200 --> 02:26:32.079 his tenure as a special consultant to the National Security Advisor. 2461 02:26:32.799 --> 02:26:36.319 But he, I mean, Ken was always in the executive orbit, okay, 2462 02:26:37.079 --> 02:26:40.479 because he was a brilliant guy and he uh, he 2463 02:26:40.559 --> 02:26:42.440 was the he was the foremost expert in the Soviet 2464 02:26:42.520 --> 02:26:47.040 Union and the Rush and Russian culture. Okay. The evening, 2465 02:26:48.159 --> 02:26:51.239 I'm sorry, evening at June twenty fifth, Kennon double time 2466 02:26:51.319 --> 02:26:56.120 to the Department of State and he said, look, he said, 2467 02:26:56.120 --> 02:26:59.760 the critical strategic matter here is that formosa Taiwan has 2468 02:26:59.799 --> 02:27:02.879 to be defended. He's like, if this is a general push, 2469 02:27:05.440 --> 02:27:08.719 and it may well be, you know, he said, Uh, 2470 02:27:09.639 --> 02:27:11.680 the secondary of Soul is the soult in South Korea, 2471 02:27:11.959 --> 02:27:16.079 the primary cult is gonna be on Formosa, and ultimately, uh, 2472 02:27:16.399 --> 02:27:20.040 there's gonna be a massive assault in Japan. Okay. If 2473 02:27:20.120 --> 02:27:23.079 if the Soviets are going all in in Asia and uh, 2474 02:27:23.360 --> 02:27:26.360 the Chinese, their Chinese proxies are going all in where 2475 02:27:26.440 --> 02:27:28.159 we're gonna we're gonna be We're gonna fight a world 2476 02:27:28.239 --> 02:27:36.600 war Japan, okay, which is very interesting. And uh, Taiwan 2477 02:27:36.760 --> 02:27:41.079 is interesting because Taiwan is actually zero strategic significant today. 2478 02:27:41.559 --> 02:27:43.719 And it shows you like the raw delusion of these 2479 02:27:43.920 --> 02:27:48.280 of these of these bizarre fucking idiots, like like missus Pelosi, 2480 02:27:48.360 --> 02:27:50.680 mister Biden, that they pretend that it's nineteen fifty and 2481 02:27:50.760 --> 02:27:53.520 that this matters, or that they actually have you know, 2482 02:27:53.840 --> 02:27:55.680 not only is there no steak in Taiwan, but this 2483 02:27:55.840 --> 02:27:59.200 idea that if I mean, if an American carry group 2484 02:27:59.280 --> 02:28:01.719 showed up declared the Taiwanese until the twenty two that 2485 02:28:01.840 --> 02:28:04.920 we're gonna defend you, like, they'd be totally befuddled. And 2486 02:28:04.959 --> 02:28:06.879 then they laugh in their face. You know, I mean 2487 02:28:06.920 --> 02:28:12.079 it's uh, it's incredible. But in nineteen fifty UH had 2488 02:28:12.120 --> 02:28:15.879 Taiwan fallen and had that ben you know, the like 2489 02:28:16.040 --> 02:28:22.760 Moscow and Stalin's ambition. Ken was absolutely right the and UH, 2490 02:28:23.000 --> 02:28:25.120 as we will see as we get deeper into this series, 2491 02:28:26.799 --> 02:28:30.239 the Soviets put remarkable pressure on Japan, and then the 2492 02:28:30.319 --> 02:28:33.079 Soviets roy is seeking out a weak spot as kind 2493 02:28:33.079 --> 02:28:37.399 of their counterweight to UH to UH to the situation 2494 02:28:37.559 --> 02:28:40.719 in Berlin especially and and the inner German border generally. 2495 02:28:41.360 --> 02:28:44.920 And that's when underlay cruise shifts on the serves amparently 2496 02:28:45.000 --> 02:28:50.440 reckless deployment a strategic nuclear forces at Cuba, which blew 2497 02:28:50.520 --> 02:28:55.639 up in his face. But UH, the UH finding a 2498 02:28:55.920 --> 02:28:59.200 finding a if the Soviets had been able to find 2499 02:28:59.440 --> 02:29:03.360 a soft spot as it were in uh the Asian 2500 02:29:03.959 --> 02:29:09.920 UH defense paradigm or structure rather wherein they could squeeze 2501 02:29:10.000 --> 02:29:12.600 Japan with a combination of you know, a hard power 2502 02:29:12.760 --> 02:29:21.399 threat and and soft power UH UH insteadivization, UH America 2503 02:29:21.399 --> 02:29:24.159 would have had a real problem in that regard. So 2504 02:29:24.319 --> 02:29:28.120 Ken was not just you know, dropping wild doomsday scenarios, 2505 02:29:28.120 --> 02:29:32.200 and what he was saying was very possible as it 2506 02:29:32.520 --> 02:29:37.239 was I Uh, I think I think Stalin was. Uh. 2507 02:29:37.760 --> 02:29:41.520 I think Stalin was testing Mau's loyalty and uh the 2508 02:29:41.600 --> 02:29:45.399 side still get split as complicated. There's profound cultural variables 2509 02:29:45.440 --> 02:29:48.600 there as well as political ones, as well as simple 2510 02:29:48.760 --> 02:29:51.120 uh well as well as things as simple as you 2511 02:29:51.200 --> 02:29:54.520 know the uh like like dang who was you know, 2512 02:29:54.520 --> 02:29:58.120 who's the shadow executive? I mean basically, after after mild 2513 02:29:58.159 --> 02:30:01.319 and after the Gang of Four got he was finding 2514 02:30:01.399 --> 02:30:03.879 this somewhat greedy and and so were and so was 2515 02:30:03.959 --> 02:30:06.239 his inner coterie and and and men like him and 2516 02:30:06.520 --> 02:30:12.520 men like them can be blocked. But also the reason 2517 02:30:12.600 --> 02:30:14.840 why uh it was it wasn't just owing to the 2518 02:30:14.920 --> 02:30:20.799 kind of nascent uh nascent uh nature of of the 2519 02:30:21.239 --> 02:30:24.879 of the of the Cold War paradigm during the last 2520 02:30:24.959 --> 02:30:28.520 years of Stalin's life. That that that that Pey king 2521 02:30:29.200 --> 02:30:32.600 was in basically unconditional alliance with Moscow is because they 2522 02:30:32.600 --> 02:30:34.559 were they were well to Stalin. I mean, Stalin was 2523 02:30:34.559 --> 02:30:37.159 a remarkable person. I maintained he was probably the most 2524 02:30:37.159 --> 02:30:41.600 powerful man who ever lived. Okay, hands down, But the 2525 02:30:43.079 --> 02:30:48.159 as Kenyon came to realize, uh, China very much was 2526 02:30:48.520 --> 02:30:51.120 the Soviet Union's proxy, and he treated it very much 2527 02:30:51.159 --> 02:30:54.680 like a client state, I mean a very important client state. 2528 02:30:55.120 --> 02:31:00.159 One was potentially great UH power, political potential and uh 2529 02:31:00.879 --> 02:31:05.399 military mobilizing potential. But nevertheless they very much treated them like, uh, 2530 02:31:06.520 --> 02:31:09.440 like a somewhat inferior race. Okay, not to be crass 2531 02:31:09.520 --> 02:31:15.799 about it. That is the reality of the situation. Kenda maintained, 2532 02:31:17.680 --> 02:31:21.040 you know, UH in that same vein like here, first 2533 02:31:21.040 --> 02:31:23.760 of all, like how how how is Truman able to 2534 02:31:23.799 --> 02:31:29.520 corral this this, this whole UH coalition effort. And again 2535 02:31:29.959 --> 02:31:32.440 the parallel with with the goal for stands out here, 2536 02:31:32.840 --> 02:31:35.959 although the way in which the coalition was uh was 2537 02:31:36.040 --> 02:31:39.799 corral is quite different. The USSR was boycotting the United 2538 02:31:39.879 --> 02:31:43.079 Nations at this point. Okay. Now, as as people probably know, 2539 02:31:44.200 --> 02:31:46.120 the Soviet Union had a permanent seat in the UN 2540 02:31:46.200 --> 02:31:49.879 Security Council. The UN Security Council access the defect will 2541 02:31:49.959 --> 02:31:52.319 higher House of the UN. If you're gonna look at 2542 02:31:52.319 --> 02:31:56.799 the UN as like a unit camera legislature of Nations, uh, 2543 02:31:57.520 --> 02:31:59.920 any permanent member of the Security Council was at veto 2544 02:32:00.040 --> 02:32:02.959 on any resolution. Okay, the Soviet Union, a boy was 2545 02:32:03.040 --> 02:32:06.680 boycotting this the UN. So they simply were their seat 2546 02:32:06.760 --> 02:32:09.920 was vacant. And why were they boycotting the UN. They're 2547 02:32:09.920 --> 02:32:12.680 a boycotting the UN because their proxy China had not 2548 02:32:13.079 --> 02:32:15.639 the UN and not permitted them to be set seated. Okay, 2549 02:32:15.760 --> 02:32:19.360 there was there's this absurd situation where the Americans were 2550 02:32:19.399 --> 02:32:22.120 demanding that chank I Scheck's government done from osa he 2551 02:32:22.159 --> 02:32:27.719 recognizes the true government of China. I I mean, I mean, 2552 02:32:28.200 --> 02:32:30.440 when you're sitting in pet king and you've got dominion 2553 02:32:30.479 --> 02:32:34.040 over nine nine hundred million people, you know, declaring like 2554 02:32:34.120 --> 02:32:35.639 you know, the guys on that you know, little island 2555 02:32:35.680 --> 02:32:38.479 over there, the real government, there's something that there's something 2556 02:32:38.520 --> 02:32:41.319 satirical about that. But this is why the Soviets were 2557 02:32:41.360 --> 02:32:46.959 boycotting the U. N That's when Truman, uh, through Antison, 2558 02:32:47.399 --> 02:32:49.520 you know, said look, you know this is this isn't 2559 02:32:49.559 --> 02:32:53.920 this is thet gregious violation of international law. You know, uh, 2560 02:32:54.639 --> 02:32:57.719 the the communists are are you know, in the front 2561 02:32:57.719 --> 02:33:00.360 that decency and you know, the the you know, the 2562 02:33:01.000 --> 02:33:04.319 the more is the civilized commnitiyan nations of assaulted Korea. 2563 02:33:04.399 --> 02:33:07.959 This this marvelous nass and democracy. You know, we we 2564 02:33:08.079 --> 02:33:12.040 we've got to rush to his defense. So that's what happened. Okay, Truman. Uh, 2565 02:33:13.120 --> 02:33:15.639 Truman wasn't any gonna, wasn't any kind of pure Wilsonian, 2566 02:33:15.719 --> 02:33:17.799 but he was like a liberal internationalist. So this this 2567 02:33:17.920 --> 02:33:19.719 kind of stuff really got him excited. He really he 2568 02:33:19.799 --> 02:33:25.040 really dug that sh and frankly, uh, politically it was uh, 2569 02:33:25.680 --> 02:33:27.840 it was a savvy move, Okay, I mean granted it's 2570 02:33:28.040 --> 02:33:30.200 Truman didn't do anything to facilitated and it was the 2571 02:33:30.280 --> 02:33:33.079 Soviets who were, you know, playing typical kind of comedy 2572 02:33:33.159 --> 02:33:37.120 games that uh, you know of a political theatrical nature 2573 02:33:37.159 --> 02:33:41.639 that facilitated it. But that's what happened. Now back to Kennon. 2574 02:33:42.639 --> 02:33:44.639 Kennon is observing all of this, and he's growing very 2575 02:33:44.680 --> 02:33:48.760 concerned because Kennon knows MacArthur pretty well and MacArthur was 2576 02:33:48.840 --> 02:33:52.719 just a weird guy. Uh. He lived with his parents 2577 02:33:54.000 --> 02:33:57.479 pretty much his whole life until he was pretty old. 2578 02:33:59.840 --> 02:34:02.559 He uh, he was immature, not in the way that 2579 02:34:02.719 --> 02:34:04.879 Churchill was like, he wasn't he wasn't like this kind 2580 02:34:04.879 --> 02:34:07.399 of buffoonish piggy drunk who was playing with army men 2581 02:34:07.520 --> 02:34:10.799 at age you know, twenty five. But he, like MacArthur, 2582 02:34:10.879 --> 02:34:15.360 had this kind of His father was a Medal of 2583 02:34:15.440 --> 02:34:17.520 Honor recipient who fought for the Union Army in the 2584 02:34:17.559 --> 02:34:21.959 ward due in the States. MacArthur himself, uh, he was 2585 02:34:22.000 --> 02:34:24.159 awarded the Medal of Honor in this in this anti 2586 02:34:24.360 --> 02:34:28.000 bandit action in the Pancho Villa era. But it was 2587 02:34:28.120 --> 02:34:32.680 strange and like it, it seemed very much like MacArthur 2588 02:34:32.840 --> 02:34:35.280 kind of coveted this medal of honor and he created 2589 02:34:35.360 --> 02:34:38.079 circumstances we're in. He could, he could, he could grab one, 2590 02:34:38.159 --> 02:34:40.239 but got a spinning facts in such a way that 2591 02:34:40.280 --> 02:34:43.280 would appeal to the you know, to the uh, to 2592 02:34:43.399 --> 02:34:46.840 those you know, commissioning such an award. He was not 2593 02:34:46.920 --> 02:34:50.200 a very attractive guy. And aside from that, there's a 2594 02:34:50.280 --> 02:34:54.600 reason why he was uh. He was sent to the 2595 02:34:54.639 --> 02:34:57.520 Pacific Theater. The Pacific Theater was an it was a 2596 02:34:57.680 --> 02:35:01.719 navy show. Okay. Now the runts there, those guys suffered 2597 02:35:01.799 --> 02:35:04.559 like nobody else, Okay, and they fought harder than anybody else. 2598 02:35:04.600 --> 02:35:07.280 I'm not saying that at all, but the Army in 2599 02:35:08.159 --> 02:35:13.600 in the Pacific War, they really were not center stage. 2600 02:35:14.280 --> 02:35:18.319 And that's like, uh something if you're one of the 2601 02:35:18.319 --> 02:35:19.920 reasons I like the film The Thin Red Line because 2602 02:35:19.920 --> 02:35:21.479 it's one of the few reasons it's about the army 2603 02:35:21.639 --> 02:35:23.719 in uh in the Pacific War, you know, not the 2604 02:35:23.799 --> 02:35:27.159 Marine Corps. And you get a sense of these guys 2605 02:35:28.000 --> 02:35:32.520 being literally in the middle of nowhere, and desertion in 2606 02:35:32.600 --> 02:35:35.040 the Pacific was almost zero because there's nowhere to desert too. 2607 02:35:35.520 --> 02:35:38.280 You know, you were in this green hell uh a 2608 02:35:38.360 --> 02:35:40.840 lot of time they weren't getting the gear they needed. 2609 02:35:42.440 --> 02:35:45.479 You know, things have become totally savage by this point. 2610 02:35:46.520 --> 02:35:49.680 But you know all that aside, I mean that that 2611 02:35:50.200 --> 02:35:52.600 that that there's enough there to constitute an episode and 2612 02:35:52.680 --> 02:35:55.520 the so own right, But the key takeaway is that 2613 02:35:55.600 --> 02:35:58.319 there's a reason why MacArthur was not given some theater 2614 02:35:58.399 --> 02:36:00.959 white command. You there's a reason why he wasn't given 2615 02:36:01.000 --> 02:36:03.639 an armored corps in Europe. Okay, there's the reason why 2616 02:36:03.639 --> 02:36:05.799 he was sent in the Pacific, where he was basically 2617 02:36:05.959 --> 02:36:09.239 under the thumb a guy's like Nimic's okay, because he 2618 02:36:09.319 --> 02:36:11.799 was a cowboy, he was a glory hound, and by 2619 02:36:11.840 --> 02:36:15.159 this point he was basically he was basically running Japan 2620 02:36:15.440 --> 02:36:18.239 like like like some kind of swaggering Cardillo, you know, 2621 02:36:18.360 --> 02:36:20.280 or some kind of like great white hunter or something. 2622 02:36:21.000 --> 02:36:25.399 And what, uh, what Kennon's view was is I don't 2623 02:36:25.399 --> 02:36:27.680 know what the hell this guy is gonna do. You 2624 02:36:27.760 --> 02:36:30.559 know Kennon's view as well. You know, MacArthur is in 2625 02:36:30.600 --> 02:36:34.559 his element with this, uh you know, if if, if, 2626 02:36:34.719 --> 02:36:37.639 if he sticks the mission and orientation of liberating Republic 2627 02:36:37.680 --> 02:36:40.399 of Korea. But in MacArthur decides he wants to collect 2628 02:36:40.440 --> 02:36:43.600 more medals and marcive led Evostok he's gonna start World 2629 02:36:43.639 --> 02:36:46.920 War three, you know. Now, I know there's like the 2630 02:36:46.959 --> 02:36:50.600 stupid cliche uh of a fucking idiots who were always 2631 02:36:50.639 --> 02:36:53.600 like talking about like, you know, talking about like general officers, like, oh, 2632 02:36:53.680 --> 02:36:56.799 there's some crazy generals gonna do something like not at 2633 02:36:56.799 --> 02:37:00.879 that times. That's a fucking retarded take. Butcars MacArthur's MacArthur 2634 02:37:01.000 --> 02:37:05.559 did crazy shit, and he didn't he didn't really respect 2635 02:37:05.600 --> 02:37:14.799 the chain of command, and kenn uh what Kenyon did was, Uh, Kenon, 2636 02:37:15.559 --> 02:37:20.760 he began very publicly saying, look, and this is fascinating 2637 02:37:20.879 --> 02:37:25.040 because in presage is obviously what ultimately resolved the Cold 2638 02:37:25.120 --> 02:37:29.799 War and what mister Nixon and Kissinger did. Kennon said, look, 2639 02:37:30.239 --> 02:37:32.440 he's like, we need to give MacArthur a free hand 2640 02:37:32.520 --> 02:37:36.000 in operational terms, so long as the mission remains limited 2641 02:37:36.000 --> 02:37:38.600 to the reliberation of of of their public career, not 2642 02:37:38.719 --> 02:37:44.600 the Congress in the North. He's like, concovenantly simultaneously, he's like, 2643 02:37:44.639 --> 02:37:48.000 we need to offer Beijing inducements to not cooperate with USSR. 2644 02:37:48.879 --> 02:37:52.079 You know. He's like, we should even offer them a 2645 02:37:52.159 --> 02:37:54.959 permanent seat on the UN Security Council if they're willing 2646 02:37:55.000 --> 02:37:58.959 to formally break with Moscow. Uh, And we should tell 2647 02:37:59.000 --> 02:38:00.879 him that, you know, a further dom is we will 2648 02:38:00.959 --> 02:38:05.360 recognize them unconditionally as a sole representative of the Chinese governments. Now, 2649 02:38:06.719 --> 02:38:10.360 John Foster Dulles wouldn't berserk when when Kennon said this, 2650 02:38:11.280 --> 02:38:14.719 and people are saying that Kennon was there, they were 2651 02:38:14.760 --> 02:38:16.520 they were saying he'd been like gotten to by the 2652 02:38:16.600 --> 02:38:19.959 Soviets because like awful slanderous things. He was literally just 2653 02:38:20.040 --> 02:38:25.040 shouted down and this really really hurt him. Okay, Uh, 2654 02:38:25.600 --> 02:38:29.079 As the Korean War started to go very poorly, and uh, 2655 02:38:29.920 --> 02:38:31.399 despite what they I don't I have no idea what 2656 02:38:31.440 --> 02:38:33.159 the age kids in school about this, But the Korean 2657 02:38:33.200 --> 02:38:36.120 War was incredibly unpopular. It was incredibly brutal, it was 2658 02:38:36.200 --> 02:38:42.959 incredibly bloody, you know, it was uh, and not not 2659 02:38:43.079 --> 02:38:46.879 in like Vietnam, in all kinds of ways. Okay, I 2660 02:38:46.879 --> 02:38:48.799 don't want to go through a laundry list of grotesque 2661 02:38:48.840 --> 02:38:51.040 things that happened. And and the awful thing is the 2662 02:38:51.040 --> 02:38:52.799 guy who had to go there suffered through. But there 2663 02:38:52.840 --> 02:38:56.360 was a lot of commonality, Okay, not just owing to 2664 02:38:56.440 --> 02:38:59.000 the owing to the fact that we're talking about, you know, 2665 02:39:00.280 --> 02:39:07.399 Asian battlefeaters. But this, uh, this really, uh this this 2666 02:39:07.559 --> 02:39:11.559 really Kenyon. Kenyon really got kind of sandbagged until uh 2667 02:39:12.000 --> 02:39:15.719 until the Eyesenhower era. Well we'll get into that too 2668 02:39:16.239 --> 02:39:18.399 as we progress. Also, we're gonna come back to Cannon 2669 02:39:18.440 --> 02:39:20.559 again and again now just because I've got a huge 2670 02:39:20.639 --> 02:39:23.040 escheme for Kennon. But he's a key player in the 2671 02:39:23.120 --> 02:39:26.040 Cold War. And like I said it, uh I, I 2672 02:39:26.159 --> 02:39:28.600 give Nixon all credit for the facility in the Sino 2673 02:39:28.680 --> 02:39:32.360 Soviets split, because he's the man who actually facilitated it 2674 02:39:32.399 --> 02:39:35.639 in an executive role. Conceptually, this was this was George 2675 02:39:35.719 --> 02:39:40.920 Kennon's kind of augury and instinct for for uh, for 2676 02:39:41.079 --> 02:39:51.520 hard power politics. But as the war dragged on, Truman 2677 02:39:51.600 --> 02:39:55.159 did increase naval patrols and and just overall naval present 2678 02:39:55.239 --> 02:39:59.159 the Pacific and especially in the Taie went straight and 2679 02:39:59.360 --> 02:40:04.799 hugely signed, huge significance Truman Beige basically bankrolling the French 2680 02:40:04.879 --> 02:40:07.719 War and into shining against the viet min Okay, and uh, 2681 02:40:08.079 --> 02:40:11.040 you know, America's involvement in into China goes back to 2682 02:40:11.120 --> 02:40:14.840 the late forties in some capacity. And uh, this idea, 2683 02:40:14.959 --> 02:40:17.639 this kind of Oliver Stone Howard, is an idea that like, 2684 02:40:18.159 --> 02:40:20.239 you know, Vietnam was a lie man and look at 2685 02:40:20.239 --> 02:40:22.840 a bunch of fish as generals and capitalists just decided 2686 02:40:22.879 --> 02:40:24.959 to fight a war there. Like that's not true at all, 2687 02:40:25.799 --> 02:40:29.440 and it's not okay, and you've got to look at 2688 02:40:29.920 --> 02:40:32.120 you gotta look at Korea, You've got to look at Vietnam. 2689 02:40:32.159 --> 02:40:34.319 You've gotta look at this entire paradigm I talked about 2690 02:40:34.360 --> 02:40:37.719 that ultimately kind of resolved in uh, this sort of 2691 02:40:37.799 --> 02:40:42.360 massive escalation or yeah, massive escalation of forces and being 2692 02:40:42.559 --> 02:40:44.760 in the Pacific, you know, in the Reagan area. You 2693 02:40:44.760 --> 02:40:45.920 gotta look at this. It's all part of like a 2694 02:40:46.000 --> 02:40:54.200 common paradigm. Okay, you can't look at these things in isolation. Now. 2695 02:40:56.440 --> 02:40:59.079 What Kennon did do during this time is he started 2696 02:40:59.120 --> 02:41:02.959 writing a lot in policy journals. Okay, and he kind 2697 02:41:02.959 --> 02:41:06.760 of back in those days, you still had public intellectuals 2698 02:41:06.799 --> 02:41:10.559 that we talked about, and Kennon first and foremost among 2699 02:41:11.239 --> 02:41:15.200 among socially, among social science types and political theorist types. 2700 02:41:15.680 --> 02:41:18.959 I mean, he was he was the king, Okay. So 2701 02:41:19.079 --> 02:41:21.120 Kenny started kind of making his case to the American 2702 02:41:21.200 --> 02:41:24.239 people and to kind of like you know, uh and 2703 02:41:24.520 --> 02:41:27.159 kind of like the learned you know, uh like top 2704 02:41:27.280 --> 02:41:33.440 layer of h the civilian world and Kennya's plan for uh. 2705 02:41:33.959 --> 02:41:35.639 I mean, we we think of history in the rearview 2706 02:41:35.639 --> 02:41:38.440 mirrorcause that's inevitable. Everybody comes to Monday morning quarterback when 2707 02:41:38.440 --> 02:41:42.200 they're like looking backwards. Kenna was pretty convinced, along with 2708 02:41:42.280 --> 02:41:45.879 everybody else, that there was probably gonna be there's probably 2709 02:41:45.959 --> 02:41:49.520 gonna be a world war within several years, and at 2710 02:41:49.559 --> 02:41:51.879 some point there was gonna be a catastrophic nuclear war. 2711 02:41:52.200 --> 02:41:54.840 That was inevitable in his view. And I understand why 2712 02:41:54.920 --> 02:42:00.559 you thought that. And Frankly had had growichav and Reagan 2713 02:42:00.639 --> 02:42:05.559 not found a way to end end that, uh, that 2714 02:42:05.719 --> 02:42:08.239 paradigm uh there there would abstutely would have been at 2715 02:42:08.280 --> 02:42:10.639 some point, you know, being in nineteen ninety three, two 2716 02:42:10.639 --> 02:42:13.440 thousand and three, two thousand and thirty three, it would 2717 02:42:13.479 --> 02:42:17.280 have happened eventually, but I'm sorry you calling it so 2718 02:42:17.319 --> 02:42:23.000 I've been another weather. But uh, the Kenon view was this, Okay, 2719 02:42:23.079 --> 02:42:25.520 this is this was Kennon's kind of grand design for 2720 02:42:25.639 --> 02:42:28.840 how to not to de escalate, but like get out 2721 02:42:28.879 --> 02:42:31.680 of the Cold War without without seeding ground to the 2722 02:42:31.760 --> 02:42:37.280 point that America is totally compromised. Okay, he said, there's 2723 02:42:37.280 --> 02:42:39.440 got to be looking a comprehensive settlement with the Soviets 2724 02:42:39.440 --> 02:42:43.680 that would terminate astillities in Korea because because if if, 2725 02:42:43.799 --> 02:42:46.680 if hostilities went on in definitely He's like, eventually, you know, 2726 02:42:47.000 --> 02:42:49.079 the Chinese by then, where you know, we're fighting a 2727 02:42:49.120 --> 02:42:52.000 general war on the peninsula against the U went that 2728 02:42:52.040 --> 02:42:55.120 American let you went forces. You know, He's like, eventually 2729 02:42:55.159 --> 02:42:57.600 they're either gonna get the upper hand or we're gonna escalate, 2730 02:42:57.680 --> 02:42:59.479 or we're gonna find ourselves in a general war with 2731 02:42:59.559 --> 02:43:02.079 the Soviet in the Chinese. So we've got to find 2732 02:43:02.280 --> 02:43:03.600 some kind of way of pull a plug on this 2733 02:43:04.879 --> 02:43:06.840 and go back to pre war you know, presumably go 2734 02:43:06.920 --> 02:43:09.840 back to pre war lines of demarcation. In the thirtieth parallel, 2735 02:43:10.479 --> 02:43:12.319 he was like, we got to admit that People's Republic 2736 02:43:12.719 --> 02:43:15.719 China the United Nations in some capacity. Okay, even if 2737 02:43:15.719 --> 02:43:17.879 we're not gonna give him a permanent seat on the 2738 02:43:17.879 --> 02:43:21.000 Security Council, we can't pretend this government is not legitimate. 2739 02:43:21.159 --> 02:43:23.799 There's a billion people who live under this government. You know, 2740 02:43:23.879 --> 02:43:27.120 they're they're they're they're the third most powerful state on 2741 02:43:27.239 --> 02:43:32.000 this planet. This is ridiculous. He's like kind of coma, 2742 02:43:32.079 --> 02:43:33.799 and we need to we need to allow a PLEBIS 2743 02:43:33.799 --> 02:43:36.399 site and Derman Taiwan's future and Kenya's like, don't worry, 2744 02:43:36.440 --> 02:43:39.680 the Taiwanese are gonna overwhelmingly vote for independence. But he's like, 2745 02:43:39.799 --> 02:43:42.239 we've got to do it. And uh, we've got to 2746 02:43:42.360 --> 02:43:45.600 allow third party monitors, you know, so that it's they 2747 02:43:45.639 --> 02:43:48.319 can just be said that, you know, these Taiwanese are 2748 02:43:48.600 --> 02:43:50.600 are under the heel of some called Billow, who in 2749 02:43:50.680 --> 02:43:53.239 turn is taking orders from the White Man or whatever. Okay. 2750 02:43:55.200 --> 02:43:58.159 And finally, and finally, this is a this is most 2751 02:43:58.200 --> 02:44:03.520 significant and this is fast. Kenn said, to prevent massive 2752 02:44:03.639 --> 02:44:09.959 escalation in in the Pacific theater, and uh, to Aviy 2753 02:44:10.200 --> 02:44:14.000 was probably you know, gonna this paradigm that is probably 2754 02:44:14.000 --> 02:44:16.040 gonna result in a nuclear war. He's like, we need 2755 02:44:16.079 --> 02:44:19.159 to bring about a neutral and de militarized Japan. Uh No, 2756 02:44:19.520 --> 02:44:22.799 no U S Force is there, you know, No, uh no, 2757 02:44:23.159 --> 02:44:25.559 not not not even a token kind of Japanese army. 2758 02:44:26.000 --> 02:44:28.200 You know. He's like, Japan, Japan needs to become just 2759 02:44:28.239 --> 02:44:33.280 the neutrals on okay, And uh that's the only way 2760 02:44:33.639 --> 02:44:37.680 moving forward. Uh, We're gonna keep it off the table, 2761 02:44:37.799 --> 02:44:40.719 as you know, the it's kind of like the prize 2762 02:44:40.959 --> 02:44:47.239 objective in the Pacific. And also this is long forgotten 2763 02:44:47.280 --> 02:44:51.680 to history, other than there's a you occasionally come across 2764 02:44:51.840 --> 02:44:55.760 copy uh, mostly like grand students come across headlines from 2765 02:44:55.760 --> 02:44:58.719 the seventies and stuff. When the Japanese Red Army faction 2766 02:44:59.399 --> 02:45:01.639 was killing p people because they dropped a lot of bodies. 2767 02:45:01.959 --> 02:45:05.719 But communism had real momentum in Japan, it was entirely 2768 02:45:05.760 --> 02:45:09.920 possible that Japan would go red. Okay, that's a whole 2769 02:45:09.959 --> 02:45:12.920 nother story. But just for contact, it seems weird that 2770 02:45:13.000 --> 02:45:15.760 Kennan is like emphasizing that, look like we gotta we've 2771 02:45:15.760 --> 02:45:17.920 got to basically like take Japan out of the Cold 2772 02:45:18.000 --> 02:45:27.399 War entirely. That's why. Okay, And in turn, he said, finally, 2773 02:45:30.040 --> 02:45:33.559 he said that we're entering into a catastro. What's gonna 2774 02:45:33.600 --> 02:45:35.680 He's like, we're in arms race with the Soviet Union. 2775 02:45:35.719 --> 02:45:38.479 He's like, which we can probably win just because we 2776 02:45:38.719 --> 02:45:42.200 we can essentially like in definitely outspend them on weapons. 2777 02:45:42.719 --> 02:45:45.239 But he's like, at some point the Soviets are probably 2778 02:45:45.319 --> 02:45:47.840 going to go all in and assault us, you know, 2779 02:45:47.920 --> 02:45:50.639 with everything they have, rather than just lose. Okay, So 2780 02:45:50.760 --> 02:45:53.079 he's like, we need to reduce some veryan capabilities to 2781 02:45:53.159 --> 02:45:56.760 a mixed like a mixed combined arms force that's capable 2782 02:45:56.799 --> 02:45:59.719 of dealing you know, a concentrated and devastating blow on 2783 02:45:59.840 --> 02:46:04.040 a limited front, but basically anywhere on this planet. And 2784 02:46:04.159 --> 02:46:08.040 that was very pressing in too, okay because that that 2785 02:46:08.159 --> 02:46:11.600 kind of thing. He became dominant by the end of 2786 02:46:11.639 --> 02:46:14.879 the Cold War definitely and even beyond, although the strategic 2787 02:46:15.000 --> 02:46:21.559 landscape is totally changed, and arguably arguably the reason why 2788 02:46:23.159 --> 02:46:27.079 that that uh that notion has gained legs is for 2789 02:46:27.239 --> 02:46:30.799 totally different reasons. But I mean there's all kinds of 2790 02:46:30.840 --> 02:46:32.479 factor of the plane of that, you know, like political, 2791 02:46:33.200 --> 02:46:41.399 technological in others. But Kenon uh, Kennon had I guess 2792 02:46:41.399 --> 02:46:43.319 I'm getting is this Kennon hit or he wasn't something 2793 02:46:43.360 --> 02:46:48.520 on augur and light or anything. But he put Kennon 2794 02:46:48.520 --> 02:46:51.280 ahead of his peers, particularly in the issue not of 2795 02:46:51.399 --> 02:46:55.399 the of Korea but also Asia generally get an understanding 2796 02:46:55.479 --> 02:46:59.719 of h understanding of cause as in politics, because causality 2797 02:46:59.760 --> 02:47:04.440 and politics it I mean cause causality and human affairs 2798 02:47:04.520 --> 02:47:09.239 obviously isn't like causality in physics or something. I mean, 2799 02:47:09.280 --> 02:47:13.200 everybody can see that, But in politics is a peculiar 2800 02:47:14.120 --> 02:47:16.440 domain of human endeavor, and there's a weird kind of 2801 02:47:16.479 --> 02:47:19.760 causation in politics. Part of this owes to what men 2802 02:47:19.840 --> 02:47:22.719 and command rules have to do to maintain credibility. Part 2803 02:47:22.760 --> 02:47:24.399 of it has to do with the way humans perceive 2804 02:47:24.559 --> 02:47:27.159 threat at scale. Part of it has to do with 2805 02:47:27.360 --> 02:47:30.680 just how decisions are made in uh in in in 2806 02:47:30.799 --> 02:47:38.319 technology driven societies where uh you know where uh that 2807 02:47:38.559 --> 02:47:42.959 that that that that wields such great power over the 2808 02:47:43.000 --> 02:47:47.200 forces that animate them that you know, uh oftentimes, once 2809 02:47:47.319 --> 02:47:50.559 once the decision one one, once the decision making process 2810 02:47:50.639 --> 02:47:54.799 set in motion, it really cannot be stopped. Kind of 2811 02:47:54.879 --> 02:47:58.120 had instincts for all this stuff, and he kind of 2812 02:47:58.200 --> 02:48:01.920 understood the implications that thistrategic matters as they were happening, 2813 02:48:02.440 --> 02:48:05.959 and That's what really makes a political theorist, particularly like 2814 02:48:06.000 --> 02:48:09.799 an IR theorist, is you can look at you can 2815 02:48:10.920 --> 02:48:13.680 you can look at affairs as they unfold, and you 2816 02:48:13.760 --> 02:48:18.680 can basically disturb the trajectory of of of of the 2817 02:48:19.760 --> 02:48:22.200 of war and peace parents. I can't think I better 2818 02:48:22.239 --> 02:48:24.600 way to put it, But that's kind of. 2819 02:48:27.920 --> 02:48:30.680 Have we lost that now or is it just we're 2820 02:48:30.799 --> 02:48:38.319 so far gone with leadership, our leadership being I mean, 2821 02:48:39.040 --> 02:48:43.760 why can't we see something like this when it comes 2822 02:48:43.879 --> 02:48:47.239 to NATO. Is it because we're the aggressors? Is because 2823 02:48:47.319 --> 02:48:48.079 we're in the wrong? 2824 02:48:48.360 --> 02:48:48.520 Is it? 2825 02:48:48.840 --> 02:48:54.559 I mean what you're describing, I mean these people, the 2826 02:48:54.639 --> 02:48:57.399 people you're describing that would be considered enemies of the 2827 02:48:57.840 --> 02:48:58.719 enemies of the regime. 2828 02:49:00.040 --> 02:49:04.040 What it's It's complicated, but a point it made the 2829 02:49:04.079 --> 02:49:06.760 people again and again. You know, during the Cold War, 2830 02:49:08.120 --> 02:49:10.719 guys who had the best, in the brightest, they were 2831 02:49:10.760 --> 02:49:13.239 basically corralled in the government. I mean, if you were 2832 02:49:13.239 --> 02:49:15.959 a nuclear physicist, you went to work in Los Alamos. 2833 02:49:16.280 --> 02:49:20.040 If you're some brilliant game theorist, you know you you 2834 02:49:20.159 --> 02:49:22.120 got you got sent to Harvard and then you gotta 2835 02:49:22.120 --> 02:49:24.479 send us some pending on funded think tank to figure 2836 02:49:24.479 --> 02:49:26.680 out how to wage nuclear war. You know, if you're 2837 02:49:26.760 --> 02:49:30.840 like a brilliant economist, you know, you'd, uh, you'd you'd 2838 02:49:30.879 --> 02:49:33.479 meet with the president and you'd say like, okay, like 2839 02:49:33.920 --> 02:49:35.760 what's the best way? You know, the Marshall Plan was 2840 02:49:35.799 --> 02:49:37.440 great for politics, but it didn't do a whole lot 2841 02:49:37.520 --> 02:49:40.120 for you know, capital and return on investment and for 2842 02:49:40.239 --> 02:49:42.479 technological development. You know, how can we how can we 2843 02:49:42.680 --> 02:49:44.440 how do we build up Korea? How can we build 2844 02:49:44.520 --> 02:49:47.040 up you know, Taiwan? You know, how can we build 2845 02:49:47.120 --> 02:49:49.719 up you know these uh, these kind of key proxy 2846 02:49:49.760 --> 02:49:53.719 regimes to fight the Soviet Union, you know, like nowadays, 2847 02:49:54.440 --> 02:49:56.360 like the only people who go to government are real losers. 2848 02:49:56.959 --> 02:49:59.760 I mean it's it's like it's like weirdos, freaks, like 2849 02:50:00.319 --> 02:50:03.840 like literally like half assed actors, you know, like weird 2850 02:50:03.879 --> 02:50:06.000 people who have like nothing going for him, but they 2851 02:50:06.040 --> 02:50:08.440 have some desperate need to like be famous or something. 2852 02:50:09.120 --> 02:50:11.639 Like any guy, any guys, anything going for him is 2853 02:50:11.680 --> 02:50:13.719 gonna have nothing to do with governments, you know, Like 2854 02:50:13.799 --> 02:50:16.360 why what you I mean that's part of it. 2855 02:50:17.799 --> 02:50:20.600 Are these people like I have a friend, his son 2856 02:50:21.520 --> 02:50:26.680 is a genius engineering trying to raytheon or offered him 2857 02:50:28.840 --> 02:50:30.840 an insane amount of money, and he's like, I just can't, 2858 02:50:31.120 --> 02:50:33.920 I can't work for these people. Is that what's happening now? 2859 02:50:34.000 --> 02:50:37.280 Because because basically we have a corporate run government that 2860 02:50:37.559 --> 02:50:39.440 the best and the brightest are just going straight into 2861 02:50:39.520 --> 02:50:40.360 the corporations. 2862 02:50:40.440 --> 02:50:44.280 And then the guy, I mean, look at it look okay, 2863 02:50:44.360 --> 02:50:47.719 like like like fifty years ago or even forty years ago, 2864 02:50:48.000 --> 02:50:49.959 like in the early eighties, I got like Elon Musk, 2865 02:50:50.120 --> 02:50:52.159 he'd be like working in governments, you would have been 2866 02:50:52.200 --> 02:50:54.000 like making you would have been going on TV debating 2867 02:50:54.040 --> 02:50:56.120 Carl Sagan to like, no, this is why we need 2868 02:50:56.239 --> 02:50:58.079 SDI you know, No, this is why we need to 2869 02:50:58.159 --> 02:51:00.319 roll back communism, Like no, this is while you know, 2870 02:51:00.360 --> 02:51:02.479 we need to scrap the A b M Treaty and 2871 02:51:02.559 --> 02:51:05.959 develop weapons platforms that you know truly hasplaited first right potential, 2872 02:51:06.280 --> 02:51:09.559 Like that's what you'd be doing, Like now, who the 2873 02:51:09.600 --> 02:51:12.079 hell is gonna go? Who the hell's gonna go debate 2874 02:51:12.280 --> 02:51:15.680 with AOC about whether like kids should learn about anal 2875 02:51:15.799 --> 02:51:19.520 sex or not in seventh grade like that, Like, who 2876 02:51:19.559 --> 02:51:21.799 the hell is gonna do that? Like any normal person 2877 02:51:21.840 --> 02:51:24.559 that's totally beneath them, and they wouldn't like selling themselves 2878 02:51:24.600 --> 02:51:27.879 that way. But also it's like government is for losers, 2879 02:51:28.520 --> 02:51:30.920 you know, it's it's for people like the bidens. You know, 2880 02:51:31.040 --> 02:51:34.399 it's it's for it's for people like AOC, it's for uh, 2881 02:51:35.639 --> 02:51:38.440 it's for or it's for guys or or or it's 2882 02:51:38.479 --> 02:51:41.360 for kind of like uh, or's for kind of like 2883 02:51:41.559 --> 02:51:43.479 you know, guys like the scantists who have some kind 2884 02:51:43.520 --> 02:51:46.399 of like like stride or nurses just need to like 2885 02:51:46.639 --> 02:51:50.120 you know, see their face on TV or something like. 2886 02:51:50.479 --> 02:51:52.600 You know, people have something going for them, like aren't 2887 02:51:52.680 --> 02:51:54.520 going to anything have anything to do with it. And 2888 02:51:55.600 --> 02:51:58.799 I mean, but it's also part of the problem. I mean, 2889 02:51:58.879 --> 02:52:01.120 like we talked about before, and I'm sure people think 2890 02:52:01.159 --> 02:52:03.399 that I'm flowing a dead horse here, that maybe I 2891 02:52:03.479 --> 02:52:06.319 overstate my case, but even aside of the fact that 2892 02:52:06.360 --> 02:52:09.200 we've got like a hostile regime that's wholly destructive and 2893 02:52:09.319 --> 02:52:12.159 like an enemy of the people and stuff, even in 2894 02:52:12.520 --> 02:52:14.399 like let's say you have like a normal regime of 2895 02:52:14.559 --> 02:52:19.399 like of like normal people, like the government has structured 2896 02:52:19.879 --> 02:52:22.719 it's only structured to really fight the Cold War and 2897 02:52:22.959 --> 02:52:24.840 not much else. I mean, it's like why does it 2898 02:52:24.879 --> 02:52:27.200 even exist? You know, there's there's like there's something of 2899 02:52:27.280 --> 02:52:30.440 a there's there's more than there's more than a modicum 2900 02:52:30.559 --> 02:52:33.719 of fraud to it too, you know it, and people 2901 02:52:33.799 --> 02:52:38.280 see through that, like at a highly intelligent guy aside 2902 02:52:38.319 --> 02:52:40.040 of the fact that there's nothing government is doing that 2903 02:52:40.079 --> 02:52:42.399 got positively interested in. Now he's not, he's not gonna 2904 02:52:42.440 --> 02:52:44.440 go he's not gonna go pretend that like, you know, 2905 02:52:44.559 --> 02:52:47.879 he's he's he's he's actually accompisting something by working in 2906 02:52:47.959 --> 02:52:52.000 some idiotic bureaucracy. You like, you know when you I mean, 2907 02:52:52.040 --> 02:52:54.680 if people want to Jerry Portnell, I mean, I'm a 2908 02:52:54.719 --> 02:52:56.959 big science fiction guy, so I love Jerry Parnell, but 2909 02:52:58.600 --> 02:53:02.079 you know he, uh the Committee on the Present Danger, 2910 02:53:02.280 --> 02:53:04.920 he really kind of took over that, uh that role. 2911 02:53:05.120 --> 02:53:06.879 I mean that the Committee on the Present Danger went 2912 02:53:06.959 --> 02:53:09.239 back to the fifties, but in the eighties he truly 2913 02:53:09.280 --> 02:53:13.280 made it into like a a into like a military 2914 02:53:13.360 --> 02:53:17.319 science like political action committee. Okay. And Pornell was the 2915 02:53:17.360 --> 02:53:20.040 guy who put like S ANDDI on the map. Okay. 2916 02:53:21.120 --> 02:53:23.799 That's why the Cold War, I mean, dynamic people were 2917 02:53:23.840 --> 02:53:26.719 in government because of the Cold War. Okay, That's that 2918 02:53:26.879 --> 02:53:28.840 is why they were there, like they weren't. There is 2919 02:53:28.879 --> 02:53:31.360 government as awesome armor because they really want to. They 2920 02:53:31.399 --> 02:53:33.040 all want to figure out, you know, how to draft 2921 02:53:33.120 --> 02:53:36.399 a school curriculum for like poor kids, because they weren't 2922 02:53:36.399 --> 02:53:39.879 like past laws like make gay people feel better about themselves. 2923 02:53:40.520 --> 02:53:42.680 I mean like they they were there to fight the 2924 02:53:42.760 --> 02:53:47.840 Cold War and that's it. And uh, the Cold War 2925 02:53:47.959 --> 02:53:50.239 was something that comes like a paradigmic that happened once 2926 02:53:50.319 --> 02:53:53.159 in a thousand years if that, And people realize that 2927 02:53:53.319 --> 02:53:56.360 on some deep level, even when it was horrifying, and 2928 02:53:56.479 --> 02:53:59.360 even when people would have done anything to get out 2929 02:53:59.399 --> 02:54:02.520 of it, you know, when like and at junctures, you know, 2930 02:54:02.639 --> 02:54:07.040 like like Cuba of sixty three or sixty two, you know, uh, 2931 02:54:07.639 --> 02:54:12.000 you know, uh, the seventy three war and like able Archer, 2932 02:54:12.399 --> 02:54:14.639 even even even as horrifying as that stuff was, like 2933 02:54:14.680 --> 02:54:18.200 people realize like you know, these were these were apocal 2934 02:54:18.600 --> 02:54:22.000 or shatering events than I'm participating in. That's why. 2935 02:54:22.719 --> 02:54:25.600 Yeah, I mean you go back to like you know, 2936 02:54:25.639 --> 02:54:29.319 they would send Carl Sagan out to make an argument 2937 02:54:29.440 --> 02:54:32.920 for them. Now, who is their scientist now, Neil deGrasse, Tyson, 2938 02:54:33.239 --> 02:54:36.200 Bill Nye. Guys who can get Guys who can get 2939 02:54:36.399 --> 02:54:42.399 owned on Twitter by like yeah by people kids anonymous 2940 02:54:42.680 --> 02:54:43.639 anonymous accounts. 2941 02:54:43.959 --> 02:54:46.559 Yeah, like like anonymous, and they're they're like high school 2942 02:54:46.639 --> 02:54:49.360 kids too. Yeah, it's like saying like there's plenty of 2943 02:54:49.360 --> 02:54:51.079 short high school kids. But the point is, yeah, these 2944 02:54:51.079 --> 02:54:53.319 guys are gonna get ebarrassed by just like like sixteen 2945 02:54:53.399 --> 02:54:53.879 year old John. 2946 02:54:54.959 --> 02:54:57.239 There's just no one. It seems like there is no 2947 02:54:57.360 --> 02:55:01.000 one who's impressive anymore. And if they are impressive, you like, 2948 02:55:01.079 --> 02:55:03.399 you know, it's like to a certain extent, Elon Musk 2949 02:55:03.479 --> 02:55:06.680 I think is an impressive guy, but he's also you're 2950 02:55:06.719 --> 02:55:09.760 also like, what the hell does this guy believe? You know, 2951 02:55:09.879 --> 02:55:12.479 it's like he you don't know what his ideology is, 2952 02:55:12.559 --> 02:55:13.440 if he has one at all. 2953 02:55:14.000 --> 02:55:15.760 Yeah, I don't only think he does. I mean generally 2954 02:55:15.879 --> 02:55:18.799 business moguls don't. I mean, I defend Musk a lot 2955 02:55:18.920 --> 02:55:21.159 because I mean he's a high speed blow dray guy. 2956 02:55:21.559 --> 02:55:24.479 He's the one who's keeping real space tech alive, and 2957 02:55:24.559 --> 02:55:26.399 he's doing incredible thing. I mean, it's the fact, like 2958 02:55:26.399 --> 02:55:30.360 the stuff he's done for telecom is incredible, Okay, and uh, 2959 02:55:31.159 --> 02:55:34.520 you know he's he's the things he's he's introduced are 2960 02:55:34.799 --> 02:55:38.479 are game changers, you know, I mean not just in 2961 02:55:38.520 --> 02:55:40.559 telecom like across the board. I mean he has an 2962 02:55:40.559 --> 02:55:44.600 eccentric weirdo but uh, I mean all all these guys are. 2963 02:55:44.680 --> 02:55:46.920 But I mean I'm glad he's around and he you know, 2964 02:55:47.559 --> 02:55:51.280 I's he's a great man and and like not in 2965 02:55:51.319 --> 02:55:53.079 the sense of I love him and think he's awesome, 2966 02:55:53.200 --> 02:55:57.319 but and by any objective metric. But that's you know, government, 2967 02:55:58.399 --> 02:56:01.000 You know, government is going to attract users when it doesn't. 2968 02:56:01.920 --> 02:56:03.479 I mean they were this is I don't wanna go 2969 02:56:03.559 --> 02:56:05.000 too of our field and I'll wrap, but I want 2970 02:56:05.040 --> 02:56:07.479 to up in the hour. But but I mean, uh 2971 02:56:08.559 --> 02:56:13.159 I government is gonna cease to exist as as as 2972 02:56:13.200 --> 02:56:15.360 we know it today in the next two hundred years. 2973 02:56:15.639 --> 02:56:17.399 Like I'm not saying like the state will wither, you know, 2974 02:56:17.520 --> 02:56:19.840 like some utopian anarchists or some you know kind of 2975 02:56:20.000 --> 02:56:24.200 like low key uh like Trotsky or something, But you're not. 2976 02:56:24.360 --> 02:56:26.639 It's just not gonna have you know, a center of 2977 02:56:26.760 --> 02:56:30.719 now people stuff like you know the twentieth century. Uh. 2978 02:56:31.799 --> 02:56:34.239 Features that that that created this regime are gonna be 2979 02:56:34.319 --> 02:56:38.000 so remote as to be like not even intelligent anymore. So, 2980 02:56:38.639 --> 02:56:41.440 Like a lot of what government does as it's make work, 2981 02:56:41.559 --> 02:56:43.600 uh business the day to day is just not gonna 2982 02:56:43.600 --> 02:56:46.719 exist and you work, and plus it's be like a 2983 02:56:46.799 --> 02:56:49.879 natural devolution, you know, like you're gonna like localism is 2984 02:56:49.920 --> 02:56:52.799 gonna become just like more and more thing it already is. 2985 02:56:52.959 --> 02:56:54.520 But so I think the problem is gonna take care 2986 02:56:54.559 --> 02:56:58.680 of take care of itself in some basic way. But 2987 02:56:58.840 --> 02:57:06.040 that's uh, that's there's something I I can't thought. I 2988 02:57:06.079 --> 02:57:08.120 thought there was something I wanted to bring up an conclusion. Again, 2989 02:57:08.159 --> 02:57:10.239 I swear I'm not going to senile. 2990 02:57:09.840 --> 02:57:13.159 But well I I derailed you. It's just that, you know, 2991 02:57:13.559 --> 02:57:16.360 when you think, yeah, when you think back on the 2992 02:57:16.440 --> 02:57:18.840 Cold War, there were so many you know, it is 2993 02:57:19.559 --> 02:57:22.239 as psychotic as it was at many points. There were 2994 02:57:22.319 --> 02:57:25.319 so many impressive people out there, and give it, you know, 2995 02:57:25.559 --> 02:57:30.280 talking coming up with technology. I mean it, we just don't. 2996 02:57:31.120 --> 02:57:33.319 I'm not saying we need another Cold War. I'm just 2997 02:57:33.360 --> 02:57:35.319 saying it's just when you look at what we have 2998 02:57:35.520 --> 02:57:38.879 today compared to uh, the people that we were looking 2999 02:57:38.959 --> 02:57:42.000 at then, it's just like what the hell happened? Man? 3000 02:57:42.120 --> 02:57:44.879 It's like idio, you know, it's like idiocrasy. It like 3001 02:57:45.120 --> 02:57:48.000 snuck up on us. Yeah, in a decade. 3002 02:57:48.479 --> 02:57:50.600 No, it's only nuts. I mean, like I said, I 3003 02:57:51.200 --> 02:57:54.399 I found it jarring. Like you know, the Clinton administration 3004 02:57:54.520 --> 02:57:56.639 was jarring because I mean Clinton was such a fucking slob. 3005 02:57:57.040 --> 02:57:59.559 But these people like, ah, there's something really wrong on them. 3006 02:58:00.000 --> 02:58:01.479 And it was like it wasn't even gradual. It was 3007 02:58:01.520 --> 02:58:03.319 like okay, I mean whether you like Bush forty one 3008 02:58:03.399 --> 02:58:05.000 or not, I mean he was he was a high speed, 3009 02:58:05.040 --> 02:58:07.760 low drag guy, you know, in that whole. And James 3010 02:58:07.840 --> 02:58:10.000 Baker was when I was a kid, like a team 3011 02:58:10.159 --> 02:58:12.319 like James Baker was like like a here. I really 3012 02:58:12.360 --> 02:58:15.760 looked up to them, you know. But these you know, 3013 02:58:15.840 --> 02:58:19.000 I go from that kind of very heavy, severe in 3014 02:58:19.120 --> 02:58:22.079 both good and bad ways regime you know, to Bill 3015 02:58:22.159 --> 02:58:24.399 Clinton and it's kind of like Merry band a circus 3016 02:58:24.440 --> 02:58:28.280 freaks like it. It was bizarre, man, Like it was jarring. 3017 02:58:28.440 --> 02:58:30.760 But I mean that's why, like I said, I can't 3018 02:58:31.079 --> 02:58:32.719 it was a joke on Like these boomers were like 3019 02:58:33.360 --> 02:58:36.559 who like flying to like, you know, rages about Donald Trump. 3020 02:58:37.200 --> 02:58:39.319 You know, these like the same assholes were like telling 3021 02:58:39.479 --> 02:58:41.799 us thirty years ago like you gonna get with the times, man, 3022 02:58:41.959 --> 02:58:44.000 you like, Bill Clinton is the future, Like we don't 3023 02:58:44.000 --> 02:58:47.000 want your white male stuff anymore. But you know, it's 3024 02:58:47.079 --> 02:58:49.559 like you can't like turn around and say, like you're 3025 02:58:49.600 --> 02:58:52.799 outraged at some reality TV show stars as the president. 3026 02:58:53.079 --> 02:58:55.319 It's like you guys made this shit happen, you know, 3027 02:58:55.399 --> 02:58:56.959 like you're the ones who said that. Like we're a 3028 02:58:57.000 --> 02:58:59.639 bunch of squares and fishes and idiots who you know 3029 02:58:59.760 --> 02:59:02.040 want like weight meal stuff to rule, man, and you know, 3030 02:59:02.520 --> 02:59:07.239 we gotta get with the times. So it's like, you know, yeah, yeah, but. 3031 02:59:07.440 --> 02:59:09.680 It's really and it's really only a matter of time 3032 02:59:09.760 --> 02:59:12.000 before people start begging for that to come back. 3033 02:59:13.280 --> 02:59:14.719 Yeah, I mean, I've got my own. I mean I'm 3034 02:59:14.799 --> 02:59:17.200 very optimistic, man. I mean I don't worry about anything 3035 02:59:17.280 --> 02:59:19.440 now because I've been so awesome. I'mre like futterless, but 3036 02:59:19.520 --> 02:59:22.920 I you know, I'm like a Calvinist and stuff, and 3037 02:59:23.120 --> 02:59:25.280 like I you know, like stuff doesn't really bother me. 3038 02:59:25.840 --> 02:59:28.479 And but also like you know, I I see I 3039 02:59:28.559 --> 02:59:30.799 see causes for optimism all over the place, you know. 3040 02:59:30.920 --> 02:59:32.319 I mean there's a lot of like horrible things too, 3041 02:59:32.440 --> 02:59:34.440 but I mean there's always horrible things. You know. The 3042 02:59:34.760 --> 02:59:38.120 world is a falling place, man, like that that's that's why, 3043 02:59:39.079 --> 02:59:41.399 you know, That's that that's you know, we're all born 3044 02:59:41.440 --> 02:59:45.959 in sin But at any event, Uh yeah, well let's 3045 02:59:48.079 --> 02:59:50.000 let's uh, let's wrap up now because I don't want to. 3046 02:59:50.040 --> 02:59:52.959 I don't want to go into another big uh like 3047 02:59:53.120 --> 02:59:56.120 subtopic because it's coming up on the hour. But like 3048 02:59:56.200 --> 02:59:58.760 I said before we went live, man and i'm ah 3049 02:59:59.639 --> 03:00:02.040 the Felt was invited me to go with them to 3050 03:00:02.200 --> 03:00:04.920 the American Renaissance Conference this weekend. So that's where I 3051 03:00:05.000 --> 03:00:09.120 am going. I'm going to Nashville. So if you're there, 3052 03:00:09.200 --> 03:00:12.799 you will see me. If you seek me out. Please 3053 03:00:12.799 --> 03:00:18.600 don't try to assassinate me or something like, but you'll 3054 03:00:18.639 --> 03:00:21.079 cotch me at these things that they're they come as friends. 3055 03:00:21.159 --> 03:00:24.600 But unfortunately, unfortunately, I don't think this is gonna come 3056 03:00:24.639 --> 03:00:25.799 out before the weekends. 3057 03:00:26.079 --> 03:00:28.959 No fair enough, Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, but uh no, 3058 03:00:29.120 --> 03:00:34.000 I in any event, uh plus yeah, I mean, I'm on, 3059 03:00:34.120 --> 03:00:36.159 I'm on I'm I'm I'm on Twitter still because I 3060 03:00:36.200 --> 03:00:39.319 mean apparently, uh, I'm speaking of mister musk uh that 3061 03:00:39.559 --> 03:00:43.639 that the uh the woke uh censorship regime is done 3062 03:00:44.000 --> 03:00:46.719 and you can find me there you seeking he shall 3063 03:00:46.760 --> 03:00:50.680 find I'm on sub stick at real Thomas seven seven 3064 03:00:50.760 --> 03:00:53.200 seven that substack dot com as my podcast is at 3065 03:00:54.680 --> 03:00:59.719 the the sequel to Steel Storm is dropping in January. 3066 03:01:00.079 --> 03:01:02.440 I promise. I'm sorry for the delay. It was not 3067 03:01:02.639 --> 03:01:05.239 my fault, nor was it my dear publisher's fault, the 3068 03:01:05.280 --> 03:01:08.520 Period Press. We've had censorship problems on our own and 3069 03:01:08.639 --> 03:01:11.840 deep platforming problems. But it will be here in January. 3070 03:01:11.879 --> 03:01:14.559 I'm sorry you cannot be here for the holidays, but uh, 3071 03:01:15.079 --> 03:01:16.799 that is uh, that is where I'm at. 3072 03:01:18.040 --> 03:01:20.600 I appreciate it. Yeah, until the next time. Thank you. 3073 03:01:22.200 --> 03:01:24.680 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekenana Show, 3074 03:01:25.440 --> 03:01:30.319 part four of the Cold War Cold War series with 3075 03:01:30.479 --> 03:01:34.680 Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing Thomas, and 3076 03:01:34.879 --> 03:01:35.239 very well? 3077 03:01:35.360 --> 03:01:37.559 Thanks again. What I wanted to get into today we 3078 03:01:37.639 --> 03:01:42.040 finished off last week we talked her, Yeah, more like 3079 03:01:42.079 --> 03:01:43.520 a week and a half ago perhaps, but you know, 3080 03:01:43.600 --> 03:01:46.520 talking about the Berlin a Berlin airlift and the Korean War, 3081 03:01:47.840 --> 03:01:49.600 and I kind of finished up talking about the Korean War, 3082 03:01:49.639 --> 03:01:52.680 and I wanted to talk about the Buddhist Republic and 3083 03:01:52.959 --> 03:01:55.440 it's putical culture and how it developed the way it 3084 03:01:55.559 --> 03:02:00.239 did and into that the listeners will unders say what 3085 03:02:00.319 --> 03:02:03.520 I mean about why that's significant, But you know, the 3086 03:02:03.600 --> 03:02:08.440 Korean War, it uh, you know, like what we discussed 3087 03:02:08.719 --> 03:02:11.840 in the last episode about I was essential. Let end 3088 03:02:12.559 --> 03:02:16.120 you know, uh, containment is policy, you know, not just 3089 03:02:16.200 --> 03:02:21.239 as some sort of theory abstracted from from concrete military 3090 03:02:21.280 --> 03:02:23.879 decision making. You know, you've really got to understand the 3091 03:02:23.920 --> 03:02:26.200 Korean War as kind of the first iteration of that, 3092 03:02:26.920 --> 03:02:29.559 you know, and as well as you know what became 3093 03:02:29.959 --> 03:02:33.200 to great lectory, you know, policy towards the Communists for 3094 03:02:33.239 --> 03:02:37.639 the next the next forty years. And it's also too 3095 03:02:37.719 --> 03:02:41.879 that's when America trulyuated into the viet conflict. You know, 3096 03:02:41.959 --> 03:02:44.479 Like I made the point before, there's all kinds of 3097 03:02:44.600 --> 03:02:47.479 lives about the Vietnam War and just missed just kind 3098 03:02:47.520 --> 03:02:51.920 of misperceptions, some deliberate, some deliberately confabulated, you know, for 3099 03:02:52.319 --> 03:02:58.200 polemical leological reasons, supportive brought ignorance the idea that Vietnam, 3100 03:02:58.200 --> 03:03:01.159 which is kind of the opportunity the you know, owing 3101 03:03:01.239 --> 03:03:06.000 the the designs of you know, uh profiteers and financiers 3102 03:03:06.040 --> 03:03:12.360 and things, this nonsense and the it and arguably you know, 3103 03:03:12.440 --> 03:03:15.479 the Far East was there. It was far more dangerous 3104 03:03:15.719 --> 03:03:18.079 during the Middle and late Cold War than than the 3105 03:03:18.120 --> 03:03:21.440 European theater. I mean, obviously come to Europe that would 3106 03:03:21.479 --> 03:03:25.479 have been because basically a single conflict diad and had 3107 03:03:25.520 --> 03:03:29.959 it been triggered or trit the potential for catastrophic escalation 3108 03:03:30.840 --> 03:03:34.200 was was was ever present. But did you but there 3109 03:03:34.319 --> 03:03:38.200 was many many like diads potentially and how and where 3110 03:03:38.639 --> 03:03:43.600 uh uh, you know, actual warfare would ensue. That was 3111 03:03:43.719 --> 03:03:47.479 very difficult to predict. And you know, once hostilities didn't sue, 3112 03:03:48.680 --> 03:03:50.600 it was it was equally difficult to predict, you know, 3113 03:03:50.680 --> 03:03:54.600 what the potential of escalation was. You know, it's also 3114 03:03:54.760 --> 03:03:57.319 to the there there's there's more of a fluidity the 3115 03:03:57.319 --> 03:04:00.559 sphere of influence and things like this. But that's you know, 3116 03:04:00.600 --> 03:04:05.959 that's why Korea is important and it's also it uh, 3117 03:04:07.479 --> 03:04:09.680 it's it's essential to I think he were you kind 3118 03:04:09.680 --> 03:04:12.079 of the outcome of the Korean conflict, you know, in 3119 03:04:12.200 --> 03:04:16.680 terms of it's very pretty much Truman came under you know, 3120 03:04:16.760 --> 03:04:19.440 Truman left office really kind of in disgrace. It's not 3121 03:04:19.600 --> 03:04:21.079 I mean, he was he was an whenever he was 3122 03:04:21.120 --> 03:04:23.719 about Truman, and he was honest. He didn't have character issues, 3123 03:04:24.239 --> 03:04:29.000 he wasn't corrupt, but he was in the toilet on. 3124 03:04:29.159 --> 03:04:32.920 The Korean War was incredibly unpopular and you know, the 3125 03:04:33.559 --> 03:04:36.639 the very public rift between Truman and Carthur, which led 3126 03:04:36.719 --> 03:04:42.959 him Carter's dismissal. The Pike generally sympathized with MacArthur, not 3127 03:04:43.159 --> 03:04:44.719 just because you know, he was kind of this heroic 3128 03:04:44.840 --> 03:04:48.479 personas that had been very deliberately hated by you know, 3129 03:04:48.600 --> 03:04:52.559 by media, but also the view of the view of 3130 03:04:52.639 --> 03:04:55.600 Truman was that Truman's of gyms, you know, as stated 3131 03:04:55.719 --> 03:04:59.319 where to quote, restore peace and security on the Korean peninsula. 3132 03:04:59.799 --> 03:05:02.600 You know, there was you know, basically the re establish 3133 03:05:02.600 --> 03:05:05.600 the stay as quote lu of victory. And in Truman's words, 3134 03:05:05.959 --> 03:05:08.159 you know, we're waging the Christrean war, you know, not 3135 03:05:08.360 --> 03:05:12.040 just for for the sake of you know, deterring aggression 3136 03:05:12.159 --> 03:05:15.280 and and uh and they're prevailing and and you know, 3137 03:05:15.319 --> 03:05:17.959 and guarding the prevailing peace, but to quote protect our forces, 3138 03:05:18.440 --> 03:05:20.639 you know, and that's one of the officers in the 3139 03:05:20.680 --> 03:05:23.159 ground refer to that as an absurd tautology. You know, 3140 03:05:23.840 --> 03:05:26.600 your forces are there to protect your forces. I mean, 3141 03:05:26.639 --> 03:05:28.799 that doesn't that that's not why you go to war. 3142 03:05:29.479 --> 03:05:31.959 And you know we're talking about you know, not just 3143 03:05:32.159 --> 03:05:36.360 men's lives, uh, you know, and and and and expecting 3144 03:05:36.399 --> 03:05:40.639 them to sacrifice their lives in the national interest. You know, 3145 03:05:40.760 --> 03:05:43.120 you you really have an obligation to the country, not 3146 03:05:43.239 --> 03:05:45.879 just to those men and and their families and relations, 3147 03:05:45.959 --> 03:05:48.479 but you know to the country at large, you know, 3148 03:05:48.600 --> 03:05:50.280 to to wage war to. 3149 03:05:50.360 --> 03:05:54.399 Win, you know, not not not to well an insult, 3150 03:05:54.840 --> 03:05:57.239 isn't it also an insult to the men on the ground. Oh, 3151 03:05:57.280 --> 03:05:59.120 we got to drop more forces in there because you 3152 03:05:59.159 --> 03:06:02.280 guys can't handle It's like the whole Afghanistan thing. We 3153 03:06:02.399 --> 03:06:05.760 have these Afghanic troops that we've that we've trained, and 3154 03:06:06.159 --> 03:06:08.639 you know, they have platoons, but they can't do it 3155 03:06:08.760 --> 03:06:10.639 on their own, So we got to get someone in there. 3156 03:06:11.239 --> 03:06:14.760 Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point that it has the 3157 03:06:14.760 --> 03:06:18.079 effect of really kind of sapping moralele and and and 3158 03:06:18.200 --> 03:06:21.680 and kind of discouraging in any enthusiasm you know, for 3159 03:06:21.760 --> 03:06:26.200 the for the war effort, and it so I mean 3160 03:06:26.520 --> 03:06:29.680 I for for good for good reason. You know, Truman 3161 03:06:29.799 --> 03:06:32.879 was kind of savaged over his prosecution of the war. 3162 03:06:33.000 --> 03:06:35.959 But also suddenly you know, kind of court historians was 3163 03:06:36.000 --> 03:06:37.520 on the right and the left, they kind of they 3164 03:06:37.600 --> 03:06:39.879 kind of view this as as this real low point 3165 03:06:40.680 --> 03:06:45.000 for a you America and the Cold War, Uh, you know, 3166 03:06:45.360 --> 03:06:49.879 kind of a a precursor to what ensued during the 3167 03:06:49.959 --> 03:06:53.360 detent era after you know, Segon fell and things. But 3168 03:06:53.760 --> 03:06:55.360 I have a different take on that. I mean, that's 3169 03:06:55.360 --> 03:06:57.239 part of the reason we're doing this is is owing 3170 03:06:57.280 --> 03:07:01.319 the you know, the earth of with in his perspectives 3171 03:07:01.319 --> 03:07:04.719 and dealing with the Cold War. But in kiss interests diplomacy, 3172 03:07:04.840 --> 03:07:06.920 he's about the only kind of I mean, I said 3173 03:07:07.000 --> 03:07:09.639 Kissinger a lot because I you know, like before, for 3174 03:07:09.639 --> 03:07:13.559 whatever reason, people kind of on both sides the logical divide, 3175 03:07:13.600 --> 03:07:17.559 they they love kind of burning uh Kissinger at proverbial effigy, 3176 03:07:17.879 --> 03:07:22.000 but he in power political analyses, he's really second to none, Okay, 3177 03:07:22.120 --> 03:07:26.120 And he he made the point. Uh I got a 3178 03:07:26.120 --> 03:07:28.440 little bit further than he did, but or he does. 3179 03:07:28.559 --> 03:07:31.680 But he made the point that you know, uh, the 3180 03:07:32.760 --> 03:07:35.520 Stalin uh and and the Soviet Union ended up in 3181 03:07:35.600 --> 03:07:38.799 pretty in a pretty precarious position only to the Korean War, 3182 03:07:40.799 --> 03:07:43.920 the uh, the the you know, the there's a basic 3183 03:07:44.000 --> 03:07:48.639 ambiguity as to where American sphere of influence stuff in 3184 03:07:48.760 --> 03:07:53.200 Soviet interests began in the region. American did not the 3185 03:07:53.319 --> 03:07:58.319 forces and being even outside of Japan, really but even 3186 03:07:58.360 --> 03:08:02.639 that is our uh, you know, to prosecute a major 3187 03:08:02.760 --> 03:08:05.799 war in the Far East or they or they you know, 3188 03:08:05.840 --> 03:08:08.520 those forces weren't present before the outset of hostilities in 3189 03:08:08.600 --> 03:08:14.639 nineteen fifty you know, the UH in the aftermath of Korea, 3190 03:08:14.959 --> 03:08:18.360 you know, the the Department of Defense, it it asked 3191 03:08:18.399 --> 03:08:20.280 for the defense budget to be tripled, and it got 3192 03:08:20.319 --> 03:08:24.760 its way, and it truly integrated military alliance developed in 3193 03:08:24.840 --> 03:08:27.719 Europe under American Supreme Command. I mean that's built NATO 3194 03:08:27.840 --> 03:08:30.360 was the Korean War. Before that, there was you know, 3195 03:08:30.440 --> 03:08:34.360 talk of a European defense community. There was real hostility 3196 03:08:34.440 --> 03:08:37.479 to the you know to UH the UH the idea 3197 03:08:37.479 --> 03:08:40.559 of an in of of American for being in any 3198 03:08:41.079 --> 03:08:44.239 any in any real you know, numbers remaining in Europe. 3199 03:08:44.280 --> 03:08:45.959 And I'm not saying it's a good thing that that 3200 03:08:46.159 --> 03:08:49.000 that this is what happened, But in terms of UH 3201 03:08:49.639 --> 03:08:54.040 you know, relative power UH and and between the United 3202 03:08:54.040 --> 03:08:56.440 States and and the Soviet Union and what became the 3203 03:08:56.440 --> 03:09:00.120 warsaw packed, this really just really changed things uh uh 3204 03:09:00.239 --> 03:09:02.959 and and skewed the strategic landscape against the interests of 3205 03:09:02.959 --> 03:09:08.840 the communists. I believe the UH it it it gave 3206 03:09:08.879 --> 03:09:11.959 the United States a certain credibility in terms of multilateral action, 3207 03:09:12.440 --> 03:09:14.719 or at least the appearance of it. You know it 3208 03:09:14.959 --> 03:09:19.639 uh it bade basically Congress UH gave a blank check 3209 03:09:19.719 --> 03:09:23.680 to UH Eisenhower subsequently, you know, to beef up these 3210 03:09:23.760 --> 03:09:26.360 client regimes you know in Africa and the Ear East 3211 03:09:26.479 --> 03:09:28.920 and in the Orient, you know, and and throw huge 3212 03:09:28.959 --> 03:09:31.319 amounts of hardware at them. And you know, this was 3213 03:09:31.440 --> 03:09:33.840 this was the catalyst really for the you know, for 3214 03:09:34.040 --> 03:09:36.520 for American special warfare. I know, like Kennedy gets all 3215 03:09:36.559 --> 03:09:38.680 the credit for that, you know, and that's why you 3216 03:09:38.719 --> 03:09:41.200 know this this the spec War centers you know, literally 3217 03:09:41.319 --> 03:09:44.040 named for him. But you know this was really like 3218 03:09:44.159 --> 03:09:47.200 like spec war and special operations really became a thing, 3219 03:09:48.000 --> 03:09:50.600 you know, UH during the Eisenhower era, you know. And 3220 03:09:50.639 --> 03:09:53.520 then this oh to UH the experience of Korea and 3221 03:09:53.600 --> 03:09:59.879 things like that, and Stalin Stalin had been UH Stalin related. 3222 03:10:00.000 --> 03:10:01.719 I don't want the Korean War to happen. I mean, 3223 03:10:01.719 --> 03:10:03.719 he had, he didn't have any problem with it. He 3224 03:10:03.879 --> 03:10:07.520 greenlit it when uh when Mao U was able to 3225 03:10:07.600 --> 03:10:10.239 convince him. But Mao and and Kim Olt Sung were 3226 03:10:10.239 --> 03:10:12.360 able to convince him that you know, victory would be 3227 03:10:12.440 --> 03:10:14.879 rapid and initially, I mean it did appear that that 3228 03:10:14.959 --> 03:10:18.559 would be the case. You know, the the U Republic 3229 03:10:18.600 --> 03:10:21.239 of Korean forces got pushed back to Pusan and the 3230 03:10:21.280 --> 03:10:23.639 perimeter was this tiny little corner literally the Republic of 3231 03:10:23.719 --> 03:10:29.239 Korea until uh, I mean, those guys fought fought hard. 3232 03:10:29.280 --> 03:10:31.920 I'm not putting shade on on the South Koreans, but 3233 03:10:31.920 --> 03:10:33.120 I mean, you know, they they were, they were they 3234 03:10:33.159 --> 03:10:37.440 were totally routed. It wasn't. Uh, it wasn't until you know, 3235 03:10:37.559 --> 03:10:40.399 the the Incheon landings, you know, cut the country in 3236 03:10:40.479 --> 03:10:46.040 half basically, and uh, you know, the UN forces essentially 3237 03:10:46.079 --> 03:10:49.000 fought this kind of desperate rear reaction and uh and 3238 03:10:49.079 --> 03:10:51.959 pushed the communists all the way back like literally to 3239 03:10:51.959 --> 03:10:53.680 the Yellow River. And I mean obviously that you know, 3240 03:10:54.559 --> 03:10:59.280 that's what triggered intervention by the Red Chinese. But but 3241 03:11:00.159 --> 03:11:03.920 but playing you know, this was not despite someone like 3242 03:11:04.000 --> 03:11:08.319 the Cold the Cold War Hawks alleged this is not 3243 03:11:08.479 --> 03:11:11.399 Stalin like you know, sitting in Moscow, you know, trying 3244 03:11:11.440 --> 03:11:13.920 to you know, go to America into this Asian war, 3245 03:11:14.399 --> 03:11:17.680 you know, whereby then you know, uh, the pots whatever 3246 03:11:17.879 --> 03:11:20.120 have an opportunity on Berlin or something like that was 3247 03:11:20.159 --> 03:11:22.319 and then but it just you know, didn't go as planned, Like, 3248 03:11:22.399 --> 03:11:25.959 it's not what happened at all. But you know, the uh, 3249 03:11:27.079 --> 03:11:30.399 what Stalin was really doing, in my opinion is uh 3250 03:11:31.079 --> 03:11:34.600 Stalin realized that the Soviet Union needed China. Okay, the 3251 03:11:34.680 --> 03:11:36.840 Soviet Union needed China as much as the United States 3252 03:11:36.879 --> 03:11:41.360 needed Western Europe. Because what became the Warsaw Pact, this 3253 03:11:41.520 --> 03:11:43.440 was this was not some sort of you know, equivalent 3254 03:11:43.520 --> 03:11:45.719 to Western Europe or it's some sort of equivalent to 3255 03:11:45.799 --> 03:11:49.399 the you know, the capital base uh and and resources 3256 03:11:49.520 --> 03:11:52.479 human material that you know, America and the UK had 3257 03:11:52.559 --> 03:11:55.600 in NATO. Really all the Warsaw Pact was, with the 3258 03:11:55.639 --> 03:11:59.920 exception of East Journey was U was the defense court 3259 03:12:00.079 --> 03:12:02.559 on you know, it was literally space where in you know, 3260 03:12:02.840 --> 03:12:05.200 the right army could deploy in depth to protect itself 3261 03:12:05.319 --> 03:12:08.479 or the stage you know what they characterized to preemptive 3262 03:12:08.479 --> 03:12:14.719 as against NATO, so occupying occupying Poland with hostility, you know, uh, 3263 03:12:15.520 --> 03:12:17.920 you know, and you know, creating like a climber theme 3264 03:12:17.959 --> 03:12:21.000 in Bulgaria like this, these things are these not profiting 3265 03:12:21.040 --> 03:12:23.520 the Soviet Union and these things were huge dreams, okay, 3266 03:12:24.159 --> 03:12:27.719 But what the Soviets had was the Soviets had China 3267 03:12:27.760 --> 03:12:30.239 and even though China was you know, very very underdeveloped 3268 03:12:30.239 --> 03:12:33.600 at that time in power political terms, you know, pure 3269 03:12:33.639 --> 03:12:40.360 military terms, there's incredible power potential and frankly a communist 3270 03:12:40.440 --> 03:12:44.360 block that's literally from uh, you know, from Berlin uh 3271 03:12:45.799 --> 03:12:50.360 uh to uh to Handoi contiguously. I mean that that's 3272 03:12:50.399 --> 03:12:52.840 a good that that's about that's about a fifth of 3273 03:12:52.920 --> 03:12:56.840 this planet. Okay, just the just the raw kind of 3274 03:12:56.879 --> 03:13:03.920 geostrategic momentum of that is incredible. So this uh, this uh, 3275 03:13:04.799 --> 03:13:07.120 that was a lot of what underlay kind of this 3276 03:13:07.559 --> 03:13:10.680 this the apparently it's on the service kind of odd 3277 03:13:10.760 --> 03:13:15.079 posture that Stalin had towards towards the Chinese and and 3278 03:13:15.159 --> 03:13:19.239 the Chinese War against the Americans. But it also it 3279 03:13:19.319 --> 03:13:21.799 did lay the foundation for the sign of Soviets split 3280 03:13:21.959 --> 03:13:24.760 because the Soviets were not generous and there's and their 3281 03:13:24.799 --> 03:13:26.719 material support at China, and they very much made it 3282 03:13:26.799 --> 03:13:28.600 clear that you know, they dude China as their client 3283 03:13:28.760 --> 03:13:34.200 regime and uh, they would not Stalin would not commit 3284 03:13:34.360 --> 03:13:40.879 to a a proportionate response if if America deployed you know, 3285 03:13:40.959 --> 03:13:43.879 atomic weapons, uh you know what they were as as 3286 03:13:43.879 --> 03:13:47.360 atomic bombs, you know, against against the knees and don't 3287 03:13:47.360 --> 03:13:50.040 get me wrong. I mean mal himself, Uh well, I 3288 03:13:50.079 --> 03:13:52.520 think was something of a crazy person and somewhat primitive. 3289 03:13:52.559 --> 03:13:55.399 Frankly of mind, I I do believe he was basically 3290 03:13:55.479 --> 03:13:59.920 playing spoken and and he said knowing certain terms that 3291 03:14:00.040 --> 03:14:04.079 that you know, the you know, the reason why you know, 3292 03:14:04.360 --> 03:14:07.200 Pete King would not give its loyalty to to Cruse 3293 03:14:07.280 --> 03:14:09.440 Chef is because Crusier was not the man that Snalin 3294 03:14:09.639 --> 03:14:14.360 Wasn't you know, Stalin was a remarkable figure. I mean, 3295 03:14:14.479 --> 03:14:17.920 whatever else we can spout him. And but by my 3296 03:14:18.000 --> 03:14:20.520 point being that you know, the man was with Stalin 3297 03:14:20.559 --> 03:14:24.200 at the helm, the kind of relationship I just described, 3298 03:14:24.280 --> 03:14:27.399 you know, characterized by the Chinese being very much subordinate 3299 03:14:27.760 --> 03:14:32.479 to Moscow. Grudgingly, the Chinese would have accepted that under Stalin. 3300 03:14:32.520 --> 03:14:35.479 They would not accept that under you know, some under 3301 03:14:35.559 --> 03:14:39.000 some under some apparatic like like cruise chief or under 3302 03:14:39.719 --> 03:14:42.479 you know, some kind of uh you know, and under 3303 03:14:42.559 --> 03:14:46.399 some kind of uh you know, octapaneery and dictator like 3304 03:14:46.479 --> 03:14:49.239 prison of But that's what I said, the scope of 3305 03:14:49.319 --> 03:14:53.399 what I wanted to cover here what it did and 3306 03:14:54.040 --> 03:14:56.159 what what it did do on the communist side, uh 3307 03:14:57.280 --> 03:15:00.959 and in kind of like the victory column as it were. 3308 03:15:01.799 --> 03:15:04.319 I mean, China did fight the United States to a standstill, 3309 03:15:04.479 --> 03:15:07.479 and I mean that was no small thing, Okay, I mean, yeah, 3310 03:15:07.559 --> 03:15:10.639 the Chinese had certain advantages on the ground, but America 3311 03:15:10.799 --> 03:15:14.760 then had tremendous military might. You know, it's a huge 3312 03:15:14.799 --> 03:15:20.760 disterity and t G the Chinese absorb these casualties. But 3313 03:15:20.959 --> 03:15:24.280 I mean that you know that uh, that that emboldened, 3314 03:15:24.719 --> 03:15:27.399 that embolden, the hoaching, that emboldened Paul Pott, you know, 3315 03:15:27.479 --> 03:15:34.600 that emboldened uh you know, uh that bolden one hundred insurgencies, 3316 03:15:34.879 --> 03:15:38.920 you know on every continent that uh, you know, the 3317 03:15:39.000 --> 03:15:43.280 United States is not invincible, you know, and that uh, 3318 03:15:43.680 --> 03:15:48.559 I think that I think I can't really be overstated. 3319 03:15:48.639 --> 03:15:51.879 And you know when people people I had a kind 3320 03:15:51.920 --> 03:15:55.239 of substantiate my claim that you know, the Soviet Union 3321 03:15:55.319 --> 03:15:59.239 really you know, kind of developed uh not so subtle 3322 03:15:59.280 --> 03:16:03.159 credibility prop album and in uh in in in the 3323 03:16:03.200 --> 03:16:05.319 way of the Korean War, you know, it was it 3324 03:16:05.440 --> 03:16:07.520 was a year before Stalin died. It was March tenth, 3325 03:16:07.559 --> 03:16:10.399 ay to you know, some died basically right by after 3326 03:16:10.440 --> 03:16:15.920 cessation of hostilities, uh In uh in Korea, and uh 3327 03:16:17.000 --> 03:16:19.680 it was we talked about the Stalin memo or the 3328 03:16:19.760 --> 03:16:23.639 Stalin note last time, you know what was called the 3329 03:16:23.879 --> 03:16:26.479 heat nooked and and some of the some European media. 3330 03:16:26.719 --> 03:16:29.280 So later on, you know, when kind of the comments 3331 03:16:29.319 --> 03:16:32.799 this more publicized. But you know, Stalin's notion was uh, 3332 03:16:33.760 --> 03:16:38.159 a demilitarized Germany, you know, know, as a neutral zone. 3333 03:16:38.200 --> 03:16:41.959 You know, Germany being retained a kind of nominal military 3334 03:16:42.120 --> 03:16:47.120 force under a under its own authority. But you know, 3335 03:16:47.440 --> 03:16:50.879 all all all troops you know, gone from German soil 3336 03:16:51.440 --> 03:16:54.399 and a you know, and and then and this jury 3337 03:16:54.520 --> 03:16:59.079 neutrality enforced on Germany. How that would be enforced? I 3338 03:16:59.319 --> 03:17:03.000 was never really clear because nego she didn't reach that point. 3339 03:17:03.000 --> 03:17:06.239 I would assume, you know, uh, some kind of un 3340 03:17:06.360 --> 03:17:09.920 manny would have would have been you know that it was. 3341 03:17:10.280 --> 03:17:13.079 It was managed, but be as it may, there's a 3342 03:17:13.159 --> 03:17:16.479 reason why you don't. I mean, yeah, obviously the Soviet Union, 3343 03:17:16.760 --> 03:17:20.760 they're big, they're they're big. Problem was uh, you know, 3344 03:17:20.840 --> 03:17:23.280 the strategic and some of the fact that you know, 3345 03:17:23.399 --> 03:17:26.159 NATO was at their doorstep what became NATO, and then 3346 03:17:26.440 --> 03:17:29.520 you know it was at their doorstep. I realized NATO 3347 03:17:29.760 --> 03:17:33.280 was was uh incorporated forty nine but it was about 3348 03:17:33.319 --> 03:17:35.360 ten years, in my opinion, before it became a truly 3349 03:17:35.520 --> 03:17:40.399 you know, like it integrated comy force other than just 3350 03:17:40.559 --> 03:17:43.600 uh you know kind of a you kind of kind 3351 03:17:43.600 --> 03:17:47.079 of a kind of mandated for you know, operate within 3352 03:17:47.120 --> 03:17:51.159 the borders of these at least nominally sovereign states. But uh, 3353 03:17:51.319 --> 03:17:53.479 you know the reason, you know, you know, the reason 3354 03:17:53.479 --> 03:17:56.799 why Stalin made the effort when he did, you know, 3355 03:17:57.600 --> 03:17:59.559 if the Soviets were in this great kind of position 3356 03:17:59.600 --> 03:18:05.319 to strength and you know, in uh in power political terms, 3357 03:18:05.639 --> 03:18:07.479 you know, the Korean War was you know, really going 3358 03:18:07.559 --> 03:18:10.280 their way and really kind of uh you know, breaking 3359 03:18:10.319 --> 03:18:13.479 the face not just a Truman, but of uh of 3360 03:18:13.600 --> 03:18:18.079 the entire an entire kind of Cold War apparatus. I 3361 03:18:18.159 --> 03:18:20.239 mean that that would not that that's not what he 3362 03:18:20.239 --> 03:18:25.360 would have been doing, but the uh, it's also to 3363 03:18:25.520 --> 03:18:26.799 the fact that I mean it was dooming to fail 3364 03:18:26.879 --> 03:18:29.360 because I mean this was submitted a mere eight months 3365 03:18:29.399 --> 03:18:33.879 before the present election, you know, and I realize, you know, 3366 03:18:34.000 --> 03:18:37.159 I realized Eisenhower wasn't any arch warhawk, but he was 3367 03:18:37.719 --> 03:18:40.040 he was a military man, and he was he he 3368 03:18:40.200 --> 03:18:43.479 was viewed, uh you know kind of as uh, the 3369 03:18:43.559 --> 03:18:45.920 Soviets were afraid of him, number one. And that's that's all. 3370 03:18:46.239 --> 03:18:49.399 That's an interesting topic and to itself, but point being, 3371 03:18:49.479 --> 03:18:52.680 for better or worse, regardless of what everybody feels about 3372 03:18:52.680 --> 03:18:54.479 Eisenhower in history, you know, like he was, he was 3373 03:18:54.600 --> 03:18:56.760 viewed as the man to wage the Cold War, Okay, 3374 03:18:56.799 --> 03:19:00.000 and that that's really what kind of catapulticed him new office. 3375 03:19:01.360 --> 03:19:07.479 But even even taking Eisenower of the equation, obviously obviously 3376 03:19:07.559 --> 03:19:10.360 eight months out from uh from from a from a 3377 03:19:10.399 --> 03:19:13.879 presidential contest, nobody's gonna, you know, nobody's gonna be willing 3378 03:19:13.920 --> 03:19:18.200 to undertake uh, you know, some kind of shift in 3379 03:19:18.399 --> 03:19:21.319 uh in in status or relations with the Soviet Union, 3380 03:19:21.479 --> 03:19:24.600 you know, in in ninety fifty two of all of 3381 03:19:24.719 --> 03:19:29.959 all years. But what I want to kind of segue 3382 03:19:30.079 --> 03:19:32.559 into is the person at conray at add an Hour, 3383 03:19:32.719 --> 03:19:34.440 Like before I said a recording, I said, I wanted 3384 03:19:34.479 --> 03:19:37.040 to get into the culture that boomed this republic and 3385 03:19:37.319 --> 03:19:40.680 how they came about and why it came about. Understand 3386 03:19:40.719 --> 03:19:45.000 that you gotta understand ad Hour, you know, and now 3387 03:19:45.159 --> 03:19:48.520 was the first uh, he was the first post war chancellor. 3388 03:19:49.040 --> 03:19:50.200 I mean, if you if you if you if you 3389 03:19:50.239 --> 03:19:52.959 consider Western Germany, Ben you know, like the real Germany 3390 03:19:53.079 --> 03:19:55.959 or whatever and uh, you know, the success or state 3391 03:19:56.079 --> 03:20:00.360 of uh of of of of the German Reich. You know, 3392 03:20:00.440 --> 03:20:02.360 he was he was the first post war chancellor. And 3393 03:20:02.399 --> 03:20:04.879 if if you reject that, which I I don't think 3394 03:20:04.920 --> 03:20:08.239 people do with some might I don't, I don't get 3395 03:20:08.360 --> 03:20:11.559 to the current German state and particularly legitimate that. But 3396 03:20:11.760 --> 03:20:18.399 in terms of you know, linear political uh legacy, I 3397 03:20:19.159 --> 03:20:21.719 think I don't think it's controversy will do And if 3398 03:20:21.760 --> 03:20:24.280 I had now as the you know, as the first 3399 03:20:24.399 --> 03:20:28.799 uh real post uh war executive, but he uh, and 3400 03:20:29.000 --> 03:20:31.360 it was an interesting guy. And it's kind of fancy 3401 03:20:31.440 --> 03:20:33.559 to me that he was the man did for the role, 3402 03:20:33.760 --> 03:20:36.520 but it makes perfect sense. And it goes to show 3403 03:20:36.600 --> 03:20:39.920 you how America at one time I had a real 3404 03:20:40.040 --> 03:20:43.639 political plans of a man who really really understood kind 3405 03:20:43.639 --> 03:20:46.680 of the nuances of power of politics and you know, 3406 03:20:46.719 --> 03:20:51.959 the kind of deeper implications of of of what of 3407 03:20:52.399 --> 03:20:57.520 what of what chiefs of state represent both the the 3408 03:20:57.639 --> 03:21:01.479 people whom they rule all so to uh, you know, 3409 03:21:01.639 --> 03:21:04.239 allies and foes alike. And and there was a perfect 3410 03:21:04.280 --> 03:21:08.520 example of that. And now we're uh. He was born 3411 03:21:08.559 --> 03:21:11.200 in the seventy six, so He took office when he 3412 03:21:11.280 --> 03:21:14.159 was seventy three. He stepped down when he was eighty seven. 3413 03:21:14.600 --> 03:21:18.840 I believe that makes him the oldest Yean head of 3414 03:21:18.920 --> 03:21:22.319 state in the modern era. The ten and I think 3415 03:21:22.479 --> 03:21:26.479 was eighty four eighty five. I mean, and there was 3416 03:21:26.479 --> 03:21:28.959 a remarkable guy. And he and now I was born 3417 03:21:29.000 --> 03:21:32.600 in the Catholic Rhyanland, Okay, and he was born uh 3418 03:21:34.200 --> 03:21:35.879 literally you know what the kind of zene of the 3419 03:21:35.920 --> 03:21:39.159 Bismarck's Coulter kof and for those that don't know, you 3420 03:21:39.239 --> 03:21:43.000 know Bismarck the kind of arch Prussian Protestant. He did 3421 03:21:43.079 --> 03:21:46.639 not trust Catholics. He purged Kolics from the kind of 3422 03:21:47.360 --> 03:21:53.239 civil apparatus which had by that point was quite robust. 3423 03:21:53.799 --> 03:21:55.639 You know, Prussia was really kind of a modern state. 3424 03:21:55.840 --> 03:21:58.399 You know, they had they they had the kind of 3425 03:21:58.399 --> 03:22:02.319 the you know, real pension system if the I mean 3426 03:22:02.360 --> 03:22:04.879 it's anybody who can make like a kind of welfare 3427 03:22:04.920 --> 03:22:08.719 state apparatus work against the Germans, and they did. That 3428 03:22:08.799 --> 03:22:12.040 can't be argued. I'm not a particularly I'm not some 3429 03:22:12.159 --> 03:22:15.840 big government uh you know, Keynesian type or anything at all, 3430 03:22:16.319 --> 03:22:20.559 but even you know, I stipulate that pressure ran with 3431 03:22:20.760 --> 03:22:25.680 uh with true uh, you know, kind of military efficiency 3432 03:22:25.760 --> 03:22:28.239 and all the best uh, you know, in all almost 3433 03:22:28.239 --> 03:22:31.719 a lot of ways. But one of the things Bismarck 3434 03:22:31.799 --> 03:22:36.000 did was, uh he very very much purged Catholics from 3435 03:22:36.159 --> 03:22:41.680 uh positions of authority. And it was it wasn't brutal 3436 03:22:41.719 --> 03:22:43.840 in the sense of, you know, Catholics weren't rounded up 3437 03:22:43.879 --> 03:22:47.239 and shot or something and weren't availed U you know 3438 03:22:47.360 --> 03:22:50.680 that the physical violence, but they really were locked out 3439 03:22:50.680 --> 03:22:53.559 of out of political and cuffair as well practical purposes. 3440 03:22:53.639 --> 03:22:55.559 And and this this made it this, this had made 3441 03:22:55.559 --> 03:22:59.559 a huge impact on the end. Okay, not only because 3442 03:22:59.600 --> 03:23:02.399 he was a Catholic, but you know, his his family 3443 03:23:02.559 --> 03:23:05.280 was was very politically engaged, you know, and now himself 3444 03:23:05.440 --> 03:23:09.000 obviously this is you know, was his career path. He 3445 03:23:10.239 --> 03:23:13.120 he considered this, you know, very very unjust and because 3446 03:23:13.159 --> 03:23:17.000 he actually was devout, you know, and now it was 3447 03:23:17.040 --> 03:23:20.600 not his Catholicism is not superficial, and it wasn't just 3448 03:23:22.360 --> 03:23:25.799 it wasn't just you know, kind of a like a 3449 03:23:25.840 --> 03:23:31.319 perfunctory uh identitarian signifier. You know, he was very very Catholic, 3450 03:23:33.200 --> 03:23:37.440 and uh he found his way uh to the uh 3451 03:23:38.000 --> 03:23:40.000 to the center party, you know, way which was the 3452 03:23:40.159 --> 03:23:44.479 Catholic Party, you know, really of a of thet boch 3453 03:23:45.239 --> 03:23:48.520 it was uh nineteen oh five, nineteen oh six. Uh 3454 03:23:49.079 --> 03:23:54.159 and now he was like the city council Cologne a 3455 03:23:54.239 --> 03:23:57.920 few years later became the vice mayor of Cologne. You know, 3456 03:23:58.040 --> 03:24:00.719 he he was considered's not of a political prom okay 3457 03:24:00.840 --> 03:24:03.799 and he uh he was again too. He wore his 3458 03:24:03.840 --> 03:24:07.239 Catholicism on his sleeve. But he was respected pretty much 3459 03:24:07.280 --> 03:24:10.799 by everybody, I mean even by the even even kind 3460 03:24:10.840 --> 03:24:12.680 of the most you know, kind of by kind of 3461 03:24:12.719 --> 03:24:16.559 the most dedicated Persian like culture warriors. You know, everybody, 3462 03:24:17.120 --> 03:24:19.200 everybody respected him. You know, he was he was a 3463 03:24:19.239 --> 03:24:26.440 man of of my integrity, Okay he uh. He was 3464 03:24:26.520 --> 03:24:31.319 adamantly opposed at political extremism, but not in not not 3465 03:24:31.440 --> 03:24:34.280 in kind of the way that you know, Carl Schmidt disdained, 3466 03:24:34.360 --> 03:24:35.959 you know, the he was not the kind of the 3467 03:24:36.000 --> 03:24:41.479 parliamentarian who believes in endless discussion and supervisial compromises. And 3468 03:24:41.639 --> 03:24:43.879 now it really did believe that, you know, the cunning 3469 03:24:43.920 --> 03:24:45.600 of reason and history and you know, the kind of 3470 03:24:45.639 --> 03:24:48.000 the mind of God is what is what guides politics 3471 03:24:48.079 --> 03:24:51.079 and and and men are kind of limited participants and 3472 03:24:51.840 --> 03:24:56.680 in affairs of state it uh you know he uh 3473 03:24:57.719 --> 03:25:00.120 he was dedicated to rooting out disorder and official and 3474 03:25:00.200 --> 03:25:03.440 see irrationality. He was very much a moralist. You know, 3475 03:25:03.479 --> 03:25:06.959 he had no talent for corruption, but he uh you 3476 03:25:07.040 --> 03:25:09.360 know he had uh he he had no time for 3477 03:25:09.799 --> 03:25:12.760 for ideologies of of of the right as well as 3478 03:25:12.799 --> 03:25:17.719 the left, you know it. Uh I think uh, I 3479 03:25:17.799 --> 03:25:22.159 think of him as somewhat like uh. I think he 3480 03:25:22.200 --> 03:25:25.479 had something kind of with people like Dolphus in Austria. Okay, 3481 03:25:27.120 --> 03:25:34.239 frankly he was a centrist, yeah, yeah, but an authoritarian 3482 03:25:34.280 --> 03:25:37.319 when called for. But also again too, I mean very 3483 03:25:37.799 --> 03:25:41.200 not not at all secularists, you know, very very much 3484 03:25:41.319 --> 03:25:45.600 you know, Catholic, and his his orientation and and then 3485 03:25:45.760 --> 03:25:49.319 uh in his evaluation of of them of what you know, 3486 03:25:49.360 --> 03:25:52.120 the metric is for good government. But uh, I mean 3487 03:25:52.440 --> 03:25:55.719 his political culture is very different than the one they 3488 03:25:55.799 --> 03:26:00.280 had now emerged from. And the uh the kind of 3489 03:26:02.040 --> 03:26:05.040 the kind of the kind of quasi clericalism of somebody 3490 03:26:05.120 --> 03:26:07.440 like Dolphus, you know, like and I wasn't running around 3491 03:26:07.479 --> 03:26:10.360 you know, like like instilling priests and in the city 3492 03:26:10.440 --> 03:26:13.639 apparatus or something like that. Okay, but he but he 3493 03:26:13.799 --> 03:26:16.000 was he was not at all kind of the secularist 3494 03:26:16.000 --> 03:26:19.239 parliamentary and like I said that that people sort of 3495 03:26:19.280 --> 03:26:23.000 associate with with with you know, compromisers, the of the 3496 03:26:24.159 --> 03:26:26.040 of the kaiser Reich and the and the m Era, 3497 03:26:26.280 --> 03:26:30.799 you know, I mean the uh, the kind of the 3498 03:26:30.920 --> 03:26:35.159 kind of toxic parliamentarism that that Schmidt lamented. I mean, yeah, 3499 03:26:35.200 --> 03:26:37.879 obviously reached a zenith and Weimar for obvious reasons. But 3500 03:26:38.840 --> 03:26:41.440 this kind of thing is you know, like it really 3501 03:26:41.680 --> 03:26:46.040 it really did. And that's that's important to bear in 3502 03:26:46.120 --> 03:26:52.040 my mind. But no, so it became he became nationally 3503 03:26:52.159 --> 03:26:59.319 known during the Great War. Uh he uh he involved himself, 3504 03:26:59.520 --> 03:27:05.639 uh you know as as uh as as a merit colone. 3505 03:27:07.120 --> 03:27:11.000 He involved themself very much and managing never threw remedy, 3506 03:27:11.040 --> 03:27:14.879 you know, food shortages born of the embargo. Uh it 3507 03:27:14.959 --> 03:27:18.239 was an eally like uh like sausage derived from soy. 3508 03:27:18.280 --> 03:27:23.239 You think this these kinds of alternative uh food technologies 3509 03:27:24.959 --> 03:27:28.840 and power was responsible for getting of found you know, 3510 03:27:29.479 --> 03:27:32.719 which which was revolutionary in those days. You know. He 3511 03:27:32.879 --> 03:27:37.520 uh he worked handled with the army and uh availing 3512 03:27:37.559 --> 03:27:40.600 colone is uh as as a base of supply and 3513 03:27:41.600 --> 03:27:45.840 and as a hub, you know, to reconstitute forces and 3514 03:27:45.920 --> 03:27:48.959 things like this. You know, he uh he really really 3515 03:27:49.079 --> 03:27:53.840 rose to the occasion, you know, and became something of 3516 03:27:53.879 --> 03:27:55.760 a hero of figure in the minds of people, not 3517 03:27:55.959 --> 03:28:01.000 just in Cologne, but uh, you know, he became quite 3518 03:28:01.040 --> 03:28:09.760 well about the Reich. Uh however, uh he uh he 3519 03:28:10.000 --> 03:28:13.399 uh he was somebody who became something an intermediate, something 3520 03:28:13.440 --> 03:28:21.719 of an intermediary uh between uh, between elements and in Berlin, 3521 03:28:23.319 --> 03:28:26.079 which is interesting. And when it became clear that uh, 3522 03:28:26.799 --> 03:28:30.280 when it became clear that uh, the the French intended 3523 03:28:30.280 --> 03:28:35.079 to occupy the Prussian Ryeland, he had the Monciulolian notion 3524 03:28:35.319 --> 03:28:39.360 of dissolving, uh, dissolving the Ryeland and into a new 3525 03:28:39.399 --> 03:28:45.440 autonomous state kind of like a demilitarized zone that uh 3526 03:28:46.440 --> 03:28:49.239 would uh you know, with the stipulation that the French 3527 03:28:49.319 --> 03:28:54.600 would would not occupy it and uh the foreign element 3528 03:28:54.680 --> 03:28:58.159 would uh set foot on its soil. You know. It's 3529 03:28:58.159 --> 03:29:00.719 because it being this kind of like you know, nomenal 3530 03:29:00.760 --> 03:29:05.399 atime zone. And uh, both the Prussian uh governments and 3531 03:29:06.680 --> 03:29:12.280 yeah and uh and the Byment regime were totally against 3532 03:29:12.959 --> 03:29:16.040 I think planned to bring up Russia with the Via regime. 3533 03:29:16.280 --> 03:29:18.799 This was in nineteen nineteen. Yeah, I mean, I mean 3534 03:29:19.000 --> 03:29:23.559 before I mean, we have to advocate the what remained 3535 03:29:23.559 --> 03:29:25.399 of the right government was totally opposed to it, but 3536 03:29:25.520 --> 03:29:27.639 it was an The point is that was very that 3537 03:29:27.760 --> 03:29:30.639 was very forward looking in it's thinking and very much 3538 03:29:30.840 --> 03:29:34.360 uh and very subtle kind of and it's and it's cunning, 3539 03:29:34.799 --> 03:29:41.079 and that kind of became characteristic of our Uh. He 3540 03:29:41.239 --> 03:29:45.040 also too, uh when it was the treaty ever Sai, 3541 03:29:45.239 --> 03:29:50.159 which was presented formerly in June nineteen nineteen and now 3542 03:29:50.200 --> 03:29:52.799 we're new as anybody did, it was in the know 3543 03:29:53.559 --> 03:29:58.520 that some sort of punitive regime was gonna be coming 3544 03:29:58.879 --> 03:30:03.479 down the pipeline. And uh, I think his idea was that, uh, 3545 03:30:04.840 --> 03:30:08.760 you know, the less kind of like the more like evolved, 3546 03:30:09.079 --> 03:30:11.920 uh the Reich was like the harder it would be, 3547 03:30:12.280 --> 03:30:17.079 uh you know, to kind of bleed it dry. It's 3548 03:30:17.280 --> 03:30:21.000 uh you can kind of definitely, uh, you can kind 3549 03:30:21.000 --> 03:30:23.319 of definitely tie up reparations regime if you know, you 3550 03:30:23.479 --> 03:30:25.440 have this kind of if you have a kind of 3551 03:30:25.479 --> 03:30:29.120 bold the sovereignty, you know, in all kinds of ways. 3552 03:30:29.200 --> 03:30:34.520 So it's uh, he he had Germany's best interest in 3553 03:30:34.600 --> 03:30:40.440 mind in these things. He was doing what was interesting, 3554 03:30:40.799 --> 03:30:47.520 is he. Uh he, he very much collided with with 3555 03:30:47.639 --> 03:30:51.639 good staff Stressman and uh you know, I've I've made 3556 03:30:51.680 --> 03:30:53.879 the point before. I think in in our in one 3557 03:30:53.920 --> 03:30:57.040 of our previous series that Stressman was a compelling guy 3558 03:30:57.120 --> 03:30:59.440 and I think he's not. I think he's never really 3559 03:30:59.440 --> 03:31:01.360 given to think of MS is kind of account to 3560 03:31:01.440 --> 03:31:04.000 Ramsey McDonald. I think it's kind of an unsung figure 3561 03:31:04.040 --> 03:31:10.319 in British politics. And never looked at stress him as 3562 03:31:10.360 --> 03:31:15.879 being too Prussian. He looked at him as uh, you know, 3563 03:31:16.799 --> 03:31:19.920 not uh not not not just no a viable for 3564 03:31:20.000 --> 03:31:24.239 the chancellorship because Ed now did in fact covid uh 3565 03:31:25.200 --> 03:31:29.600 the office. But uh he uh you know, he viewed 3566 03:31:29.639 --> 03:31:32.319 his vision as fundamentally at odds with what was you know, 3567 03:31:33.239 --> 03:31:39.079 possible and feasible, and uh that's really kind of sabotage, 3568 03:31:41.360 --> 03:31:46.120 sabotage and naws designs. The idea was, uh, you know, 3569 03:31:46.239 --> 03:31:50.719 for the a coalition of the Christian Krants and the 3570 03:31:52.200 --> 03:31:57.000 and the and the Center Party, you know, uh to 3571 03:31:57.280 --> 03:32:01.959 uh to constant the ruling quors and and at our 3572 03:32:02.280 --> 03:32:05.799 true to form, he'd he'd he managed developed good offices 3573 03:32:05.840 --> 03:32:09.040 with the Social Democrats as well. He refused to negotiate 3574 03:32:09.079 --> 03:32:13.040 with the Communists, but he'd managed to decople a lot 3575 03:32:13.120 --> 03:32:16.920 of key figures of the Social Democrats from the KPD, 3576 03:32:17.840 --> 03:32:21.120 and this caused a lot of consternation obviously on the left, 3577 03:32:21.239 --> 03:32:23.079 which was you know, kind of a brilliant play by 3578 03:32:23.120 --> 03:32:26.639 add an Hour, but it also it ingratiated you know, 3579 03:32:26.799 --> 03:32:29.360 certain people to him that, you know, moving forward would 3580 03:32:29.360 --> 03:32:32.520 have facilitated, uh, you know, a real you know, a 3581 03:32:32.600 --> 03:32:35.479 coalition that actually had legs and trans of its ability 3582 03:32:35.559 --> 03:32:40.559 to to pass legislation and and and and take you know, 3583 03:32:41.079 --> 03:32:45.360 executive take unilateral action when required, and and and had 3584 03:32:45.399 --> 03:32:48.399 something of a mandate across the aisle, which was remarkable 3585 03:32:48.520 --> 03:32:54.239 for nineteen twenty six. But uh, his kind of is 3586 03:32:54.319 --> 03:32:58.520 his personal collisions with uh, with Stressmen ended all of that. 3587 03:32:59.680 --> 03:33:02.360 I mean that that could be a whole episode into itself. 3588 03:33:02.479 --> 03:33:07.760 But what's what's segnific again is when uh, you know, 3589 03:33:08.079 --> 03:33:12.879 the National Socialists uh breakthrough in in nin or breakthroughs 3590 03:33:12.959 --> 03:33:17.520 in nineteen thirty and thirty two. And now it wasn't 3591 03:33:17.520 --> 03:33:19.239 just Marri Cologne, but he was president of the Prussian 3592 03:33:19.319 --> 03:33:26.079 State Council, you know, and uh, obviously, uh, the National Socialists, 3593 03:33:27.600 --> 03:33:30.920 one of their key and stituency, not because they had 3594 03:33:30.959 --> 03:33:33.319 you know, said strong soup around when in elite circles 3595 03:33:33.319 --> 03:33:38.000 they certainly, but also just I mean, you know, appreciating 3596 03:33:38.600 --> 03:33:44.520 the political uh you know, the like the political core 3597 03:33:45.120 --> 03:33:50.520 of the German Reich. And now said on the Prussian 3598 03:33:50.559 --> 03:33:54.000 State Council meant that he was either going to have 3599 03:33:54.079 --> 03:33:56.559 to some kind of something, come to some kind of 3600 03:33:56.600 --> 03:34:00.799 concord or the National Socialists or step aside. And uh, 3601 03:34:01.760 --> 03:34:08.639 interestingly it uh went on the night of the Long 3602 03:34:08.719 --> 03:34:13.799 Knives and now was I actually arrested and uh not 3603 03:34:14.120 --> 03:34:16.719 allegedly for his own protection. And he wasn't harmed anyway, 3604 03:34:17.120 --> 03:34:21.479 and he was released after the after the uh you know, 3605 03:34:21.559 --> 03:34:25.000 after the after the dirty work of the bloody business 3606 03:34:25.079 --> 03:34:30.600 of we're out the revolutionaries was done. But he wrote 3607 03:34:30.600 --> 03:34:32.760 a ten page letter to Gering you know who. But 3608 03:34:33.200 --> 03:34:37.319 then uh was Galli or Prussia and as well as 3609 03:34:37.360 --> 03:34:39.760 the chief of the Prussian police, you know. And he 3610 03:34:39.840 --> 03:34:41.600 made the point at Geary and he said that, you know, 3611 03:34:41.760 --> 03:34:45.479 when when the National Socialist Party was banned, I allowed 3612 03:34:45.479 --> 03:34:48.719 your people to you know, fly your national flags and 3613 03:34:48.760 --> 03:34:54.879 Prussian buildings I build of uh you know, our public facilities, 3614 03:34:55.040 --> 03:34:57.639 you know, to the National Socialists, so you to hold 3615 03:34:57.639 --> 03:35:00.639 your meeting, you know, because I wasn't I was, I 3616 03:35:00.719 --> 03:35:04.440 wasn't gonna. I wasn't going to exclude German people and 3617 03:35:04.799 --> 03:35:08.600 you know veteran fighting minute that which most of you 3618 03:35:08.760 --> 03:35:11.559 were from the political discussion, you know. And this is 3619 03:35:11.600 --> 03:35:13.600 how you thank me is by placing me under arrest. 3620 03:35:14.319 --> 03:35:18.159 And apparently this really kind of hit Daring hard and 3621 03:35:18.239 --> 03:35:21.799 according to Spear as well as others, and I don't 3622 03:35:21.799 --> 03:35:25.840 there to be a valid uh the testimony particularly valid 3623 03:35:25.879 --> 03:35:29.639 on most matters, but on some things because he didn't 3624 03:35:29.639 --> 03:35:32.520 no reason to lie about it, I do, and I'm 3625 03:35:33.520 --> 03:35:36.559 according to Spear, Hitler made the point that Hour was 3626 03:35:36.600 --> 03:35:39.239 a good man and regardless of our differences within him, 3627 03:35:39.280 --> 03:35:42.120 our main National Socialists, you know, we we leave him alone, 3628 03:35:42.559 --> 03:35:46.399 you know. And that's basically what happened. I mean, he 3629 03:35:46.680 --> 03:35:50.639 was and now refused to He didn't he not only 3630 03:35:50.760 --> 03:35:53.879 he refused to join the party, but he he he 3631 03:35:54.000 --> 03:35:56.159 you know, he basically refused after the rest, he refused 3632 03:35:56.200 --> 03:35:58.559 to kind of cooperate in any meaningful way. Okay, so 3633 03:35:59.799 --> 03:36:02.959 he was unceremoniously removed from all you know, his his 3634 03:36:03.040 --> 03:36:07.280 remaining offices, like appointed offices, you know, and uh, you 3635 03:36:07.360 --> 03:36:10.360 know told uh, you know, you're free to go by 3636 03:36:10.399 --> 03:36:13.000 your business, but you know, in nice life, you've got 3637 03:36:13.000 --> 03:36:16.799 nothing coming. And and I actually spent uh some time 3638 03:36:16.879 --> 03:36:21.479 living in a monastery, you know. And in later years 3639 03:36:21.520 --> 03:36:22.959 he said that this is what he kind of had, 3640 03:36:23.520 --> 03:36:26.559 you know, he came to certain certain like epiphanies about 3641 03:36:27.479 --> 03:36:30.040 you know, uh, the German nation and and and what 3642 03:36:30.159 --> 03:36:33.239 configuration of state was was going to allow it to survive, 3643 03:36:33.520 --> 03:36:36.559 the German that survives the people and whatnot, which I 3644 03:36:36.559 --> 03:36:38.879 think is basically true, you know. And now was not 3645 03:36:39.040 --> 03:36:41.399 some he wasn't some intellectual or some student of history. 3646 03:36:41.440 --> 03:36:43.440 He wasn't he wasn't a guy like the Gaul or 3647 03:36:43.520 --> 03:36:47.760 like Adolf Hitler. You know, he is this kind of 3648 03:36:47.799 --> 03:36:51.360 guy pole star like we talked about, was his Catholic 3649 03:36:51.479 --> 03:36:55.680 faith and uh, you know kind of like a kind 3650 03:36:55.680 --> 03:36:58.559 of a pragmatic sense of of how to of of 3651 03:36:58.840 --> 03:37:01.440 how to constue to government. You know, that the Germans 3652 03:37:01.479 --> 03:37:04.280 could live with as a people, you know, but that 3653 03:37:04.639 --> 03:37:07.639 you know, if not ideal, would would allow their you know, 3654 03:37:08.760 --> 03:37:11.639 survival and perennial terms. And at the end of the day, 3655 03:37:11.680 --> 03:37:13.760 I mean, that's that's what the function of a government 3656 03:37:13.879 --> 03:37:16.280 is is guaranty of the posterity of a people. What 3657 03:37:16.440 --> 03:37:22.479 the and now we're being the man that the Allied 3658 03:37:22.479 --> 03:37:26.799 occupation authorities essentially chose to lead Germany is fascinating And 3659 03:37:26.879 --> 03:37:32.760 again it shows you how you know, again, at one time, however, 3660 03:37:32.920 --> 03:37:38.120 is guided the regime may have been in uh, you know, 3661 03:37:38.600 --> 03:37:42.000 just in pure in terms of pure competence, like America 3662 03:37:42.000 --> 03:37:46.159 at one time it had very very strong Department of State, 3663 03:37:47.760 --> 03:37:51.879 very very tight intelligence apparatus that allowed it to identify 3664 03:37:52.239 --> 03:37:56.799 you know who who you know who should be insinuated 3665 03:37:56.799 --> 03:37:59.920 into these roles. And I think within the bound ration 3666 03:38:00.639 --> 03:38:03.799 of what America and in the UK and France wanted 3667 03:38:03.840 --> 03:38:07.399 to accomplish in Germany like now we're the only end 3668 03:38:07.479 --> 03:38:12.920 I think could have done that. It kind of finally 3669 03:38:13.719 --> 03:38:16.319 what I now had going for him in their eyes, 3670 03:38:17.399 --> 03:38:19.959 he was he was. He was constitutionally anti Russian and 3671 03:38:20.000 --> 03:38:25.079 anti Soviet. What he did say when one of a 3672 03:38:25.159 --> 03:38:28.840 few topics he would pientificate elaborately on in theoretical and 3673 03:38:28.920 --> 03:38:32.280 historical terms was the relationship of Germany to the East 3674 03:38:33.239 --> 03:38:36.879 and UH specifically, you know, relationship of UH of the 3675 03:38:37.000 --> 03:38:41.479 German state UH to Russia, and uh, you know, he's said, 3676 03:38:41.479 --> 03:38:42.840 he talked about the kind of you know what in 3677 03:38:42.920 --> 03:38:45.920 his view was the love hate affair of Berlin with 3678 03:38:46.239 --> 03:38:49.280 with with Russia and the Russians, and you know, the 3679 03:38:49.399 --> 03:38:53.120 kind of kind of machiavilion u wit that you know, 3680 03:38:53.239 --> 03:38:57.399 kind of ultimately brings Germany into concord with the Russians 3681 03:38:57.559 --> 03:39:00.840 and other times than odds, depending on you know, the 3682 03:39:01.920 --> 03:39:05.680 depending on the characteristics of the extent strategic landscape as 3683 03:39:05.719 --> 03:39:10.440 well as the internal political situation. And uh and now 3684 03:39:10.440 --> 03:39:12.520 we're said, you know that that that that ends. Now, 3685 03:39:12.680 --> 03:39:15.799 you know, the Russians are, if not our enemies there, 3686 03:39:15.959 --> 03:39:19.120 they're certainly our adversaries. You know, we we we're gonna 3687 03:39:19.159 --> 03:39:21.239 stand with the West and with Europe and with the 3688 03:39:21.319 --> 03:39:28.200 Atlantics concord at all costs. He refused to recognize the 3689 03:39:28.319 --> 03:39:31.559 d d R at all. He said, it's not a 3690 03:39:31.639 --> 03:39:35.559 legitimate state, you know, he he denied, uh, he denied 3691 03:39:35.680 --> 03:39:40.959 them any diplomatic representation. And I mean that probably is 3692 03:39:41.040 --> 03:39:44.600 what more than any other single variable, uh is what 3693 03:39:44.879 --> 03:39:47.920 uh is what kind of made I now were acceptable 3694 03:39:48.000 --> 03:39:51.000 to the occupation of authorities, but it was it was 3695 03:39:51.040 --> 03:39:54.680 everything taken together, I mean there was the Soviet Union 3696 03:39:54.719 --> 03:39:57.559 were at Diamond, you know, ambitious guys who you know 3697 03:39:57.680 --> 03:40:00.479 hadn't been national socialists, but who hated the Russian I mean, 3698 03:40:00.639 --> 03:40:03.959 it's it's not like Nower had like a rare resume 3699 03:40:04.079 --> 03:40:09.559 in that regard, but this kind of that he had 3700 03:40:09.559 --> 03:40:13.719 a rare credit and an unusual sort of integrity. I 3701 03:40:13.840 --> 03:40:17.399 think that, coupled with this sort of unfinitional cold warrior 3702 03:40:17.520 --> 03:40:21.799 stance made him, uh, you know, kind of like the 3703 03:40:21.959 --> 03:40:26.319 natural choice. But again, I mean it's in the fact 3704 03:40:26.399 --> 03:40:30.280 that the fact that the men in charge could demonate 3705 03:40:30.360 --> 03:40:33.120 that he was a natural choice, uh, is a testament 3706 03:40:33.120 --> 03:40:35.639 to the fact that, again, at one time America had 3707 03:40:36.040 --> 03:40:41.639 a highly competent foreign policy establishment. What what what what's 3708 03:40:41.719 --> 03:40:43.920 in place now was literally can sleely illiterate? I just 3709 03:40:44.120 --> 03:40:46.200 I realize gonna make that point again and again people 3710 03:40:46.239 --> 03:40:49.120 are probably tired of it, but it's something that can't 3711 03:40:49.120 --> 03:40:55.159 be overstated. But interestingly, two, you know our he uh 3712 03:40:56.079 --> 03:40:58.600 he said that people need to say, you know, very 3713 03:40:58.639 --> 03:41:01.760 monck assessed veterans desert to be respected and they're patriots 3714 03:41:01.840 --> 03:41:04.879 and and he he said that you know, we're not 3715 03:41:04.959 --> 03:41:08.559 gonna put like shame on these men. But interestingly, the 3716 03:41:08.639 --> 03:41:13.000 reason why Auto Reamer and Hans Rudel, who both were 3717 03:41:13.200 --> 03:41:18.719 uh Reamer, was he still has the Socialist Rights Party, 3718 03:41:19.040 --> 03:41:21.479 you know, which was which in my name, was the 3719 03:41:21.559 --> 03:41:24.200 legacy party of the nsd P in real terms. And 3720 03:41:26.280 --> 03:41:30.959 they they were pro Sovietiet. They were nagatively anti Merican 3721 03:41:31.040 --> 03:41:35.319 and pro Soviet. And he, uh, he was, he was 3722 03:41:35.440 --> 03:41:38.239 very he very derisively referred to ad Now as quote 3723 03:41:38.319 --> 03:41:41.719 Rabbi ad Nour and uh, there's a lot there's been 3724 03:41:41.799 --> 03:41:45.799 a German right, the national Socialist right, who absolutely despise 3725 03:41:45.879 --> 03:41:50.639 ad Hour. But they that uh and I I I 3726 03:41:51.239 --> 03:41:56.120 understand cletely, like I get it, but it's not it's 3727 03:41:56.159 --> 03:41:57.799 not as simple as add now. We're as being like 3728 03:41:57.840 --> 03:42:00.959 I said, Nato Lackey or something or some or some 3729 03:42:01.120 --> 03:42:05.079 social democrat to uh, you know who saw an opportunity 3730 03:42:05.159 --> 03:42:08.719 and you spent the war years you know, uh, you 3731 03:42:08.799 --> 03:42:10.760 know his toy, the launder. You had to you know, 3732 03:42:10.799 --> 03:42:12.959 avoiding the front. Well so like avoiding the eye or 3733 03:42:13.040 --> 03:42:16.799 the authority. And suddenly you know he uh you know, 3734 03:42:17.000 --> 03:42:20.520 he started you know waving uh waving waving the natal 3735 03:42:20.639 --> 03:42:23.719 band or as soon as as as soon as uh 3736 03:42:24.200 --> 03:42:27.680 the Soviets were uh we're in Berlin. You know, he 3737 03:42:28.079 --> 03:42:32.559 had genuine entirety. Okay, Uh, I'm not gonna like I 3738 03:42:33.879 --> 03:42:37.120 obviously mouth went slides with guys like but in his 3739 03:42:37.399 --> 03:42:43.520 in his I mean, but uh, that's that's uh that 3740 03:42:43.760 --> 03:42:46.360 that it's I I wanted to decate based this entire episode, 3741 03:42:46.719 --> 03:42:48.479 and now we're into the senden See because that's I 3742 03:42:48.600 --> 03:42:51.360 realized something of a dry topic, but it's essential to 3743 03:42:52.200 --> 03:42:55.079 to understand and it could have very much gone a 3744 03:42:55.159 --> 03:42:58.280 different way. And I think the point about reading war 3745 03:42:58.440 --> 03:43:02.840 kind of building NATO because like and again I really 3746 03:43:02.920 --> 03:43:05.600 NATO was constant in nineteen forty nine, but there wasn't 3747 03:43:05.639 --> 03:43:08.559 really much to it then, Okay, and there's still still 3748 03:43:08.600 --> 03:43:11.120 hasn't even been decided. If you know, Germany was going 3749 03:43:11.159 --> 03:43:13.959 to be allowed to permitted the you know, re arm 3750 03:43:14.040 --> 03:43:18.159 at all in any capacity, and then what kind of 3751 03:43:18.200 --> 03:43:23.399 became the prevailing uh sensibility. Uh. You know, people make 3752 03:43:23.440 --> 03:43:25.799 the point a lot that the you know, the the 3753 03:43:25.959 --> 03:43:32.840 uh the uh western of an army UH had uh 3754 03:43:33.399 --> 03:43:38.079 such boring uniforms. That was by design because the original 3755 03:43:38.399 --> 03:43:43.879 a concept thing floated was a European the community wherein 3756 03:43:44.120 --> 03:43:47.040 uh there'd be a comedy command structure. You know, no 3757 03:43:47.159 --> 03:43:51.079 one state you know would have would would be dominant 3758 03:43:51.159 --> 03:43:56.120 and you know in an executive officer roles or in 3759 03:43:56.159 --> 03:43:59.920 command authorities and UH the you know, the the UN 3760 03:44:00.040 --> 03:44:03.399 a forum for the post the multinational force. It was 3761 03:44:03.440 --> 03:44:05.920 supposed to be devoid of anything that could be affiliated 3762 03:44:05.959 --> 03:44:09.399 with you know, national chawmanism or or something that could 3763 03:44:09.440 --> 03:44:13.639 be like identified with any particular UH country or or 3764 03:44:13.680 --> 03:44:20.559 cultural UH tendency. So you're left with UH. So the 3765 03:44:20.920 --> 03:44:24.280 the like then is now it's like these guys look 3766 03:44:24.360 --> 03:44:26.879 like bus drivers or something. It was opposed to, like 3767 03:44:26.920 --> 03:44:34.799 the Easterman Army even though which are like dope, but 3768 03:44:34.920 --> 03:44:42.399 it's you know, it's uh it. I think the key take. 3769 03:44:42.479 --> 03:44:46.159 But also, like I said, was that the UH and 3770 03:44:46.239 --> 03:44:50.479 we'll get into UH later on in this series two 3771 03:44:50.680 --> 03:44:53.959 the like ultimately and and in the final phase of 3772 03:44:53.959 --> 03:44:57.879 the Cold War, the key UH, the key strategic battle 3773 03:44:58.280 --> 03:45:01.440 strategic battlespace was was the the Pacific, you know, and 3774 03:45:01.520 --> 03:45:05.639 that that's one of the things that underlay UH the 3775 03:45:05.719 --> 03:45:09.200 Department of the Navy under Jim Webb, you know, UH 3776 03:45:10.040 --> 03:45:13.719 and UH Reagan's idea for a ship navy, you know, 3777 03:45:13.799 --> 03:45:16.680 the idea was, you know, to deploy battle platforms, uh 3778 03:45:17.840 --> 03:45:20.440 like survival battle platforms, eff to wave what amount to 3779 03:45:20.479 --> 03:45:22.600 do a two front nuclear war? We can think of 3780 03:45:22.719 --> 03:45:28.040 nuclear war as having fronts at all. But that's uh, 3781 03:45:29.280 --> 03:45:35.280 that's yeah. I mean the fact that the people like uh, 3782 03:45:36.559 --> 03:45:40.639 people like Kennon uh who talk about, you know, the 3783 03:45:40.719 --> 03:45:43.760 inherent danger of of the Far East and and they 3784 03:45:43.840 --> 03:45:45.680 kind of and and you know, again the fleet of 3785 03:45:46.120 --> 03:45:48.680 of possible conflict adds, I mean they're proven right. I 3786 03:45:48.719 --> 03:45:51.319 mean during the Cold War, like Asia was pretty much 3787 03:45:51.319 --> 03:45:53.399 always at war, and I mean America fought two major 3788 03:45:53.479 --> 03:45:55.879 wars there and probably have it as on others that 3789 03:45:56.479 --> 03:46:00.360 you know, we're kind of something short of you know, 3790 03:46:00.719 --> 03:46:04.360 open conflict, but but but very much not conditions at peace. 3791 03:46:04.479 --> 03:46:07.840 And I mean the there was a I mean that 3792 03:46:07.959 --> 03:46:09.840 that wasn't happening in Europe. I mean, yeah, I realize 3793 03:46:09.840 --> 03:46:15.319 again as I stated that, uh, there's really only one 3794 03:46:15.360 --> 03:46:19.000 conflict diet and possible in Europe, and it was a 3795 03:46:19.079 --> 03:46:24.559 catastrophic one. But that had the Korean War not happened, 3796 03:46:24.680 --> 03:46:28.159 or had it resolved some other way, uh, the entire 3797 03:46:28.239 --> 03:46:32.600 course of subsequents would have been different. And it and 3798 03:46:32.799 --> 03:46:37.280 it had MacArthur got his way some kind of uh, 3799 03:46:37.840 --> 03:46:39.559 it's not going to open it at war with uh 3800 03:46:40.760 --> 03:46:43.479 with And the problem is, I mean, I stipulate that 3801 03:46:44.680 --> 03:46:47.600 what was referred like we thought the tautology of well, 3802 03:46:47.680 --> 03:46:50.000 you know, we we we've got to defend Korea because 3803 03:46:50.000 --> 03:46:51.479 our forces are there, and we're going to fight to 3804 03:46:51.520 --> 03:46:54.200 defend our forces. I mean, that's nonsense. But if the 3805 03:46:54.200 --> 03:46:57.440 alternative is, you know, we we've got to push for 3806 03:46:57.479 --> 03:46:59.959 a total victory in Korea. But doing that means fighting 3807 03:47:00.040 --> 03:47:03.200 in China, and fighting China means you know, landing the 3808 03:47:03.559 --> 03:47:07.120 China goshiks nationalists there, and and and and waging war 3809 03:47:07.200 --> 03:47:11.319 to the end until you know, until the comments regime falls. Well, 3810 03:47:11.319 --> 03:47:12.479 if you do that, then you're at war with the 3811 03:47:12.559 --> 03:47:15.319 Soviet Union, you know, and then when and I mean, 3812 03:47:15.520 --> 03:47:19.440 there's this this is not the Cold War. Was it 3813 03:47:19.479 --> 03:47:22.399 was important, not to not just important, but I mean 3814 03:47:22.520 --> 03:47:25.000 and it was a next it was a question, it 3815 03:47:25.079 --> 03:47:30.680 was a next essential reality that uh, the conflict paradigms 3816 03:47:30.680 --> 03:47:32.799 couldn't just be considered in binary terms. And I mean 3817 03:47:32.840 --> 03:47:36.319 that even even up through the eighties, there was something too. 3818 03:47:36.559 --> 03:47:39.280 Uh I'm not talking about like the fools like Uh, 3819 03:47:41.600 --> 03:47:43.719 the kind of you know, the kind of the kind 3820 03:47:43.719 --> 03:47:45.719 of peace movement just calling for like you know, Libel 3821 03:47:45.799 --> 03:47:49.040 to sun. I mean, but some of the people you 3822 03:47:49.120 --> 03:47:52.760 know who really kind of like opposed the the the 3823 03:47:53.239 --> 03:47:59.360 reig and UH and tm B notion. It's it was, 3824 03:47:59.600 --> 03:48:02.200 you know, they're the Cold War announcing you can just 3825 03:48:02.280 --> 03:48:04.000 turn off. And it wasn't just a question of you know, 3826 03:48:04.399 --> 03:48:07.959 persuing a quite like a conciliatory posture or an aggressive posture. 3827 03:48:08.520 --> 03:48:13.200 You know, especially by the era of deep parodies, the 3828 03:48:13.360 --> 03:48:19.000 every every embolicy decision had had very serious consequences that 3829 03:48:19.079 --> 03:48:21.840 themselves and other consequences, not all of which can be foreseen. 3830 03:48:22.319 --> 03:48:27.000 You know, it's an incredibly dangerous time. But excuse me, 3831 03:48:27.040 --> 03:48:28.840 I'm just I'm getting over a flare up. So I 3832 03:48:29.040 --> 03:48:32.399 realized that sound crummy. I'm sorry, but uh, I'm gonna 3833 03:48:32.440 --> 03:48:35.479 wrap Uh I think that I think I'm gonna wrap 3834 03:48:35.600 --> 03:48:38.159 up this, uh this episode. And like I said, I 3835 03:48:38.239 --> 03:48:40.879 realized this was a bit dry. It's kind of it 3836 03:48:40.959 --> 03:48:44.520 was it's essential to lay foundation for some of the 3837 03:48:45.360 --> 03:48:46.840 you know, for some of the some events we're gonna 3838 03:48:46.879 --> 03:48:50.559 talk about, and we're gonna get into the Cuban missile crisis, 3839 03:48:50.600 --> 03:48:52.479 in Vietnam and the next episode. And I think that 3840 03:48:52.840 --> 03:48:55.079 everybody finds that sort of stuff exciting. I mean, at 3841 03:48:55.200 --> 03:48:55.600 least I do. 3842 03:48:55.840 --> 03:49:00.639 But uh, you had also you had also met talking 3843 03:49:00.680 --> 03:49:02.680 about McCarthy. 3844 03:49:04.799 --> 03:49:07.520 Yeah, let's let's we'll take that up next episode too, 3845 03:49:07.520 --> 03:49:10.200 because yeah, obviously we're getting in a well, yeah, we're 3846 03:49:10.200 --> 03:49:13.440 gonna we'll get into eyes and uh into Kennedy era. Yeah, 3847 03:49:13.440 --> 03:49:14.200 we about McCarthy. 3848 03:49:14.399 --> 03:49:17.840 Yeah, all right, sounds great. Give your plugs and we'll 3849 03:49:17.840 --> 03:49:18.280 get out of here. 3850 03:49:19.600 --> 03:49:21.799 Yeah, for sure, Thank you, Pete. You can find me 3851 03:49:21.920 --> 03:49:26.639 on substick uh real Thomas seven seven seven dot substick 3852 03:49:26.719 --> 03:49:30.399 dot com. That's where you can access to the podcast. 3853 03:49:31.440 --> 03:49:34.719 We drove a podcast every other week, you know, on 3854 03:49:34.760 --> 03:49:37.000 the same kind of stuff, you know, revisionism and and 3855 03:49:37.200 --> 03:49:40.000 and mostly political theory kind of topics. But you know, 3856 03:49:41.360 --> 03:49:43.920 I take up current events too, particularly Warren P's kind 3857 03:49:43.959 --> 03:49:47.440 of stuff when it's timely to do. So. You can 3858 03:49:47.479 --> 03:49:52.799 find me on Twitter at triskilli and jahad. Uh the 3859 03:49:52.920 --> 03:49:55.520 T is a number seven, but if you search for 3860 03:49:55.799 --> 03:49:59.680 Thomas seven seven seven, you should find me. That's mostly 3861 03:49:59.719 --> 03:50:03.120 where I active these days. I'm going to transition to 3862 03:50:03.239 --> 03:50:07.680 YouTube and you know, perhaps uh one or two other 3863 03:50:09.360 --> 03:50:12.799 video platforms on the first of January and make that 3864 03:50:12.959 --> 03:50:17.440 kind of the the primary place where I post up content. 3865 03:50:17.600 --> 03:50:20.319 But for now, that's that's where I can be found. 3866 03:50:22.639 --> 03:50:25.600 I want to welcome everyone back to the pe Cononez Show, 3867 03:50:26.280 --> 03:50:29.840 continuing talking about the Cold War. I know a lot 3868 03:50:29.879 --> 03:50:31.840 of people are going to be really interested in this one. 3869 03:50:32.440 --> 03:50:35.719 Thomas seven seven seven doing Thomas very well. 3870 03:50:35.840 --> 03:50:38.879 Thanks, Yeah, I hope so. And I wanted to get 3871 03:50:38.959 --> 03:50:41.959 some housekeeping stuff because I haven't addressed people directly for 3872 03:50:42.040 --> 03:50:43.479 a minute. I mean, not like I've got this huge 3873 03:50:43.520 --> 03:50:47.600 audience or something, but I do have some pay subscribers 3874 03:50:47.680 --> 03:50:49.639 who are adult because they make a lot of what 3875 03:50:49.719 --> 03:50:53.639 I do possible. That not much has gotten done the 3876 03:50:53.680 --> 03:50:55.639 last couple of weeks. That was second stuff, and I 3877 03:50:55.680 --> 03:50:59.040 think some of you notice. But obviously I'm I'm getting 3878 03:50:59.079 --> 03:51:03.520 back to dropping fresh stuff now. I mean literally right 3879 03:51:03.600 --> 03:51:07.040 now what we're doing here. But I'm gonna drop a 3880 03:51:07.159 --> 03:51:09.319 fresh pod this week and kind of get back on 3881 03:51:09.399 --> 03:51:11.719 top of stuff. So thank you for being patient. I 3882 03:51:11.760 --> 03:51:14.120 don't like believe people. I mean, I realize everybody's cool 3883 03:51:14.159 --> 03:51:16.239 about such things, but I mean people do pay to 3884 03:51:16.319 --> 03:51:18.479 like read my stuff, so I don't really like to 3885 03:51:18.559 --> 03:51:22.840 leave them hanging like that. But yeah, today, I wanted 3886 03:51:22.840 --> 03:51:24.760 to get into the Q and missile crisis today because 3887 03:51:24.799 --> 03:51:29.559 it's something it's key, not just understanding how the later 3888 03:51:29.680 --> 03:51:33.799 Cold War developed. I think of the later Cold War 3889 03:51:33.840 --> 03:51:39.959 as Bresnev onward. Okay, and Bresnev became General Secretary in 3890 03:51:40.639 --> 03:51:45.840 nineteen sixty four, okay. But the early Cold War you 3891 03:51:45.879 --> 03:51:51.239 can think of as you know, Stalin's tenure through mister 3892 03:51:51.360 --> 03:51:59.600 Krushcheff's regime and not not not not as temporally can 3893 03:51:59.639 --> 03:52:01.719 we think of that as the early Cold War. But 3894 03:52:02.239 --> 03:52:04.840 that was before parody set in, you know, strategic parody. 3895 03:52:06.280 --> 03:52:09.280 And people bandy a lot about nuclear weapons today, which 3896 03:52:09.639 --> 03:52:11.959 is another example, in my opinion, of how kind of 3897 03:52:12.040 --> 03:52:17.559 disengage the public policy UH discourses from the realities of things. 3898 03:52:18.440 --> 03:52:21.959 Nulear weapons are a practical purpose is obsolete, not not 3899 03:52:22.079 --> 03:52:25.280 because the technology is obsolete per se, but because they 3900 03:52:25.319 --> 03:52:29.159 don't really have utility in UH in it tactical or 3901 03:52:29.159 --> 03:52:32.399 a strategic sense outstead of a very peculiar paradigm. And 3902 03:52:33.920 --> 03:52:37.040 unfortunately or fortunately, depending on where you fall on the issue, 3903 03:52:37.680 --> 03:52:42.799 that that that paradigm emerged splendidly in in the twentieth century, 3904 03:52:44.639 --> 03:52:49.559 and uh what uh, what's what What's become sort of 3905 03:52:49.799 --> 03:52:53.200 dogma in terms of in terms of strategic analysis and 3906 03:52:53.239 --> 03:52:57.360 game theory derived from the precedent of the Cuman missile price. 3907 03:52:57.399 --> 03:53:01.600 It's more than any other singular event. This was somewhat 3908 03:53:02.000 --> 03:53:08.920 uh compromised reliance on the model that I just you know, 3909 03:53:09.040 --> 03:53:13.559 from relying upon the data derived from the Cuban missile 3910 03:53:13.600 --> 03:53:16.920 crisis and the models created therein in terms of strategic 3911 03:53:17.000 --> 03:53:21.079 forecasting and and nuclear war planning and deterrens and things 3912 03:53:21.120 --> 03:53:25.120 like that. H some of that was itself writered ops 3913 03:53:25.120 --> 03:53:28.079 a lescdent by the emergence at deeper parodies after ninety 3914 03:53:28.079 --> 03:53:32.239 seventy three seventy four. But the basic terms remain, and 3915 03:53:32.360 --> 03:53:38.360 the basic the basic conceptual model indoors. And I'm gonna 3916 03:53:38.360 --> 03:53:41.719 get into why it is in a minute, but first 3917 03:53:41.760 --> 03:53:44.280 we gotta understand understand the Cuban crisis. You can understand 3918 03:53:44.280 --> 03:53:49.360 the character mister Krushcheff, cruise schief became for a poetical purposes, 3919 03:53:49.840 --> 03:53:51.959 you know, chief Executive of the Soviet Union in nineteen 3920 03:53:52.000 --> 03:53:53.600 fifty eight. You know, I mean, there was always kind 3921 03:53:53.600 --> 03:53:56.040 of a strange or not always, but in most cases 3922 03:53:56.520 --> 03:53:59.959 there's an unusual sort of consolidation of offices that kind 3923 03:53:59.959 --> 03:54:02.719 of asituted the executive seat of power in the Soviet Union. 3924 03:54:03.479 --> 03:54:08.159 Sometimes that was a trifecta of sourts. Sometimes it came 3925 03:54:08.280 --> 03:54:13.200 down to the rule of one man. But it's it's superseded. Uh, 3926 03:54:13.920 --> 03:54:18.479 it's superseded in any single office, okay. And after the 3927 03:54:18.559 --> 03:54:22.120 death of Stalin in ninety fifty three, there there was 3928 03:54:22.159 --> 03:54:24.079 a lot of there's a lot of palace intrigues, as 3929 03:54:24.079 --> 03:54:27.920 it were. Okay, as well, we could probably imagine between 3930 03:54:27.959 --> 03:54:31.920 Stalin loyalists, you know, between and reformers as well as uh, 3931 03:54:32.319 --> 03:54:37.040 you know, between men who represented uh uh sympathies uh 3932 03:54:37.280 --> 03:54:40.000 common to the same faction, but you know, who had 3933 03:54:40.000 --> 03:54:43.680 personal designs on power. And Cruise Chef was emerging a 3934 03:54:43.840 --> 03:54:47.479 triumphant for a variety of reasons, uh, not the least 3935 03:54:47.520 --> 03:54:52.399 of which ironically, in the view of the West at 3936 03:54:52.440 --> 03:54:55.120 the time, I believe, and even in hindsight and even 3937 03:54:55.120 --> 03:54:58.959 among some revisionists, Cruiseiff really was something of a reformer, 3938 03:54:59.200 --> 03:55:00.879 you know, he was he was kind of a proto 3939 03:55:00.959 --> 03:55:03.760 Gorbachev in a lot of ways. People who cited this 3940 03:55:04.040 --> 03:55:09.239 because his posture was so aggressive and foreign policy as 3941 03:55:09.319 --> 03:55:12.200 regards efforts directify the strategic and balance. And we'll get 3942 03:55:12.239 --> 03:55:15.000 into what I mean by that in a moment. But Krustie, 3943 03:55:15.000 --> 03:55:18.879 if he is, he wanted to normalize the Soviet Union. Okay. 3944 03:55:19.159 --> 03:55:21.239 Now this presented a problem for few of the reasons 3945 03:55:21.799 --> 03:55:23.360 and the one and it was imperative for him to 3946 03:55:23.399 --> 03:55:26.280 normalize and thought relations with the West because otherwise nothing 3947 03:55:26.360 --> 03:55:28.760 was gonna get done. Okay. There there was going to 3948 03:55:28.760 --> 03:55:31.200 be some kind of interdependence between the East Block and 3949 03:55:31.239 --> 03:55:38.360 the West, Okay, regardless of what anybody's powerpelitical ambisions were. Okay, 3950 03:55:38.399 --> 03:55:41.600 that's that was just the reality of of of of 3951 03:55:41.760 --> 03:55:45.559 nascent globalism. And make no mistake, globalism began uh in 3952 03:55:45.639 --> 03:55:49.239 the ashes of the Second War. Okay, The fact there 3953 03:55:49.280 --> 03:55:52.520 wasn't realized until you know, the night of November nineth, 3954 03:55:52.559 --> 03:55:57.239 nineteen eighty nine and subsequent is is incidental. This was uh, 3955 03:55:57.840 --> 03:55:59.959 This was this was the enterprise comment of both Moscow 3956 03:56:00.079 --> 03:56:02.719 in Washington and and what form that it would all 3957 03:56:02.799 --> 03:56:05.559 the system would ultimately take once consolidated, was really what 3958 03:56:05.760 --> 03:56:09.520 underlay the political side of the Cold War. So Cruise 3959 03:56:09.520 --> 03:56:13.040 I've had to present a face of u of normalcy 3960 03:56:13.159 --> 03:56:16.360 or the outside world in some basic sense. However, as 3961 03:56:16.440 --> 03:56:18.639 we talked about, particularly in the last episode, when we 3962 03:56:18.719 --> 03:56:22.559 got into you know, the uh the the battleground of 3963 03:56:22.600 --> 03:56:27.440 the Third world and the need quite literally to you know, 3964 03:56:27.559 --> 03:56:32.680 to to disway the non like world into one's own 3965 03:56:32.760 --> 03:56:35.200 camp as a path of victory in the Cold War, 3966 03:56:36.399 --> 03:56:41.040 the uh the the only way to really animate these 3967 03:56:41.079 --> 03:56:44.600 these post colonial states and in these in these developing countries, uh, 3968 03:56:45.319 --> 03:56:49.280 to to take up the cause of Marxist Leninism was 3969 03:56:49.319 --> 03:56:53.280 to sell them in a basically radical program. Okay, That's 3970 03:56:53.319 --> 03:56:56.239 what was resonant with the people on the ground. That's 3971 03:56:56.319 --> 03:56:59.760 what uh, the cadres had been marinated in that kind 3972 03:56:59.760 --> 03:57:03.639 of you know, during World War two and after. Frankly, 3973 03:57:03.840 --> 03:57:07.639 that's what orthodox Marcust Leninism is. You know, it calls 3974 03:57:07.760 --> 03:57:10.079 for the It calls for the development of a truly 3975 03:57:10.120 --> 03:57:14.120 revolutionary sensibility where uh, you know, power flows from the 3976 03:57:14.159 --> 03:57:18.440 barrel of a gun quite literally. Okay, in tactical terms, 3977 03:57:19.639 --> 03:57:21.959 somebody like Mao was was far more of an orthodox 3978 03:57:21.959 --> 03:57:25.520 and Marguist Leninist than you know, the the the Eastern 3979 03:57:25.559 --> 03:57:28.840 Bloc cadres that uh that succeeded style. And Okay, I'm 3980 03:57:29.120 --> 03:57:31.000 notwithstanding the fact that I don't believe Mao what any 3981 03:57:31.000 --> 03:57:33.920 great understanding of Marxism. I don't think he understood it 3982 03:57:33.920 --> 03:57:36.920 at all, particularly, but on the tactical sides of political 3983 03:57:36.959 --> 03:57:40.920 revolutionary as somebody like Mao or probably more probably more 3984 03:57:40.959 --> 03:57:46.159 precisely Ho Chi Men was exactly what Lenin envisioned when 3985 03:57:46.200 --> 03:57:48.520 he when he when he when he contemplated you know, 3986 03:57:48.600 --> 03:57:53.840 world world socialist revolution. Okay, So there was this weird 3987 03:57:53.920 --> 03:57:58.120 dichotomy wherein the Soviets had to present a reformist face 3988 03:57:59.399 --> 03:58:02.200 to their chief advers series in the West, but you know, 3989 03:58:02.280 --> 03:58:04.120 they had to maintain a kind of a year of 3990 03:58:04.319 --> 03:58:09.040 uh of orthodox radicalism, you know, to their constituents, if 3991 03:58:09.079 --> 03:58:10.840 we can think of them, that where their cadres, you know, 3992 03:58:10.920 --> 03:58:14.879 in the Third World. And this was a very delicate 3993 03:58:14.959 --> 03:58:19.079 menuet and uh it. Frankie led the foundation of the 3994 03:58:19.120 --> 03:58:23.000 sign of Soviet Split, which we'll get into in coming episodes, 3995 03:58:23.040 --> 03:58:24.719 but that's a bit outside the scope for now. But 3996 03:58:26.799 --> 03:58:29.719 when Cruisie did take the helm of the Soviet Union 3997 03:58:29.719 --> 03:58:33.079 and the Soviet Union had some pretty substantial momentum technologically, 3998 03:58:33.159 --> 03:58:36.440 they were arguably winning the space race. You know, Sputnik 3999 03:58:36.639 --> 03:58:39.559 was uh was the first uh what was the first 4000 03:58:39.639 --> 03:58:42.239 man made object in orbit? The first man made object 4001 03:58:42.280 --> 03:58:44.200 in space was a V two rocket, so you can 4002 03:58:44.280 --> 03:58:47.120 thank the German Reich for that. But you know, Sputnik 4003 03:58:47.239 --> 03:58:49.239 was a This was a big deal, Okay, Like a 4004 03:58:49.280 --> 03:58:52.920 lot of people, uh, the people in the in the 4005 03:58:53.000 --> 03:58:55.159 nascent Pentagon at the time said well, this is just 4006 03:58:55.239 --> 03:58:58.319 a stunt. You know, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't 4007 03:58:58.360 --> 03:59:00.760 prove anything. It didn't matter if anything or not. And 4008 03:59:00.799 --> 03:59:03.559 it didn't matter if you know, there's a direct military application, 4009 03:59:04.040 --> 03:59:06.799 you know, the parking a satellite in orbital space for 4010 03:59:06.840 --> 03:59:08.760 a few minutes. The point is that they were the 4011 03:59:08.840 --> 03:59:11.600 first to accomplish it, and this developed a kind of 4012 03:59:11.639 --> 03:59:18.360 momentum it zone in terms of perception. Okay, but the 4013 03:59:18.479 --> 03:59:21.680 Soviets had a real political problem that became a national 4014 03:59:21.799 --> 03:59:25.840 security problem that was ongoing even despite those victories in 4015 03:59:25.879 --> 03:59:30.879 this era. We talked about the Berlin Airlift last episode, 4016 03:59:31.079 --> 03:59:35.639 and you know how that really kind of was the 4017 03:59:35.719 --> 03:59:40.719 key initiatory or instigating event of the Cold War. I 4018 03:59:40.799 --> 03:59:46.200 think if we can identify any singular occurrence between ninety fifty, 4019 03:59:47.200 --> 03:59:51.360 well over one point five million people emigrated from the 4020 03:59:51.440 --> 03:59:54.200 Soviet occupied zone to West Germany, and most of these 4021 03:59:54.239 --> 03:59:56.639 people were young. They were prime working age, a dispportiond 4022 03:59:56.639 --> 04:00:01.840 an amount of engineers, men with military experience, people educated 4023 04:00:01.879 --> 04:00:05.440 in the sciences, uh, women of child during age. Yeah, 4024 04:00:05.440 --> 04:00:09.639 I mean this, this is a real problem. Okay. A 4025 04:00:09.760 --> 04:00:15.040 subtext uh to uh to to the issue of uh 4026 04:00:15.360 --> 04:00:17.680 emmigration across the inner German border a level was never 4027 04:00:17.719 --> 04:00:21.079 explicitly stated by their camp was uh one of the 4028 04:00:21.120 --> 04:00:24.559 reason Germany is coveted. It's it's it's not. It's not 4029 04:00:24.719 --> 04:00:27.879 just because of of of geostrategic accident and kind of 4030 04:00:27.879 --> 04:00:30.200 where you know Germany is located on the map. Okay. 4031 04:00:30.319 --> 04:00:31.520 It had to do with it had to do with 4032 04:00:31.559 --> 04:00:35.040 the human material. Okay, you can control the German population 4033 04:00:36.879 --> 04:00:41.479 that literally, the human resources they're in that that you 4034 04:00:41.959 --> 04:00:46.040 wield tremendous power in terms of your ability to mobilize 4035 04:00:46.079 --> 04:00:48.920 them for warfare. I mean, that's just a fact, Okay. 4036 04:00:48.959 --> 04:00:50.879 I mean if people want to say that it's not true, 4037 04:00:51.000 --> 04:00:53.200 or that the eugenics thinking, Okay, fine, you can label 4038 04:00:53.239 --> 04:00:55.479 whatever you want. It's a fact. And everybody accepted it. Okay, 4039 04:00:55.520 --> 04:00:59.200 there's a there's a reason why. There's a reason why 4040 04:00:59.399 --> 04:01:00.799 the d d R was was the jewel and the 4041 04:01:00.879 --> 04:01:03.399 crown of Warsaw pat Okay, And it wasn't. It wasn't 4042 04:01:03.440 --> 04:01:06.440 just because it was the westernmost point at which at 4043 04:01:06.440 --> 04:01:13.799 which the Soviets UH sphere of influence stretched. As this 4044 04:01:14.079 --> 04:01:21.120 went on, another another layer was insinuated into the into 4045 04:01:21.159 --> 04:01:25.520 the issue of into the issue of divided Germany as 4046 04:01:25.600 --> 04:01:29.559 the UH, as the four power UH regime fell apart, 4047 04:01:31.399 --> 04:01:34.520 and it became clear that, you know, demilitarization was not 4048 04:01:35.079 --> 04:01:39.479 in the cards. The Soviets came to realize that West 4049 04:01:39.520 --> 04:01:42.879 Germany as a basing hub for for American nuclear weapons 4050 04:01:43.040 --> 04:01:45.559 was was going to become the reality. And this had 4051 04:01:45.600 --> 04:01:50.959 already been accomplished in terms of low yeld tactical nuclear forces. 4052 04:01:54.680 --> 04:02:01.559 It had escalated beyond that, in part because UH the 4053 04:02:01.639 --> 04:02:04.399 strategic balance was still unstable. And we'll get into what 4054 04:02:04.440 --> 04:02:08.840 I mean by that in a moment, But the Soviets 4055 04:02:08.840 --> 04:02:13.639 were very very aware of this. So the problem was twofold, 4056 04:02:14.200 --> 04:02:15.559 you know. The problem was the fact that they were 4057 04:02:15.600 --> 04:02:19.680 literally hemorrhaging people by the sieve that was Berlin, because 4058 04:02:19.719 --> 04:02:23.479 the inner German border had been shot since ninety fifty three, 4059 04:02:23.959 --> 04:02:28.840 but Berlin, being one hundred and ten miles within East Germany, 4060 04:02:29.840 --> 04:02:35.120 represented a kind of It represented a kind of metaphorical valve, 4061 04:02:35.159 --> 04:02:38.879 as it were, wherein people could pass rather freely between 4062 04:02:38.959 --> 04:02:41.639 you know, the Eastern occupations owned in the West and 4063 04:02:41.680 --> 04:02:48.479 once in West Berlin. The West Berlin authorities under a 4064 04:02:49.879 --> 04:02:53.120 under the dominion of you know, of the United States, 4065 04:02:53.159 --> 04:02:56.040 the UK and France, they considered all German citizens to 4066 04:02:56.120 --> 04:02:58.600 just be citizens in Germany. They did not recognize East 4067 04:02:58.639 --> 04:03:01.559 Germany as a sovereign state. So East German people, these 4068 04:03:01.600 --> 04:03:03.959 German passports made it to West Berlin like they were 4069 04:03:04.000 --> 04:03:06.600 good to go. They they you know, they be granted 4070 04:03:06.600 --> 04:03:09.799 full rights of UH, the many bales and the Bonus Republic. 4071 04:03:11.520 --> 04:03:15.920 So there's the practical problem of of UH, of the 4072 04:03:16.000 --> 04:03:18.159 Soviets losing the human material they needed to wage the 4073 04:03:18.239 --> 04:03:21.680 cold work quite literally, there's the political problem of UH 4074 04:03:22.120 --> 04:03:27.639 of credibility, you know, UH in that you know, if 4075 04:03:28.399 --> 04:03:32.239 if you claim to represent the real Germany and the 4076 04:03:32.440 --> 04:03:35.159 U you know, the will of the working class and 4077 04:03:35.239 --> 04:03:38.040 the government situated in East Berlin, yet you're hemorrhaging people. 4078 04:03:39.559 --> 04:03:43.760 It UH it's a terrible look, frankly, and uh, the 4079 04:03:44.000 --> 04:03:47.920 entire uh, the the the entire communist enterprise again relied 4080 04:03:48.000 --> 04:03:51.000 upon the perception, especially in the Third World, you know, 4081 04:03:51.120 --> 04:03:54.600 to represent a competitive system that was an equitable alternative 4082 04:03:54.680 --> 04:03:59.879 to that in the West. And finally, as I just indicated, uh, 4083 04:04:03.719 --> 04:04:13.040 the permanent division and mobilization of Germany essentially allowed America 4084 04:04:13.760 --> 04:04:20.639 and the NASA and NATAL alliance to potentially maintain a permanent, 4085 04:04:21.000 --> 04:04:23.479 splendid first strike capability, you know, if they chose to 4086 04:04:23.520 --> 04:04:26.840 deploy strategic nuclear forces. At that time, there were no 4087 04:04:27.000 --> 04:04:31.600 hypersonic cruise platforms available, so we'll get into that later obviously, 4088 04:04:32.520 --> 04:04:38.840 but the solution of this was somewhat fascinating. There's a 4089 04:04:38.959 --> 04:04:42.959 terrible human cost, so I'm not being flippant. But on 4090 04:04:44.399 --> 04:04:51.399 August thirteenth, nineteen sixty one, at midnight, the East German 4091 04:04:51.680 --> 04:04:56.479 Border Police, the National Volks Army and elements of the 4092 04:04:56.559 --> 04:04:58.680 group of Soviet forced in Germany, it began to construction 4093 04:04:58.760 --> 04:05:01.440 on the Berlin Wall, Okay, and it wasn't clear at 4094 04:05:01.479 --> 04:05:05.440 first what they were doing. Ubrich had actually suggested this 4095 04:05:06.360 --> 04:05:10.719 based on analysis from National Voks Army engineers. The Soviets 4096 04:05:10.760 --> 04:05:13.879 did not think it was possible, and the Pentagon, interestingly 4097 04:05:13.959 --> 04:05:16.520 near me cort of engineer said it's probably impossible. But 4098 04:05:18.280 --> 04:05:20.719 to emphasize the point I just made about, you know, 4099 04:05:20.920 --> 04:05:24.360 the mentioned material if you will, of Germany, well, the 4100 04:05:24.440 --> 04:05:29.360 Germans found a way to quite literally wall in West Berlin, 4101 04:05:31.680 --> 04:05:34.719 which again I'm not making light of a terrible situation, 4102 04:05:34.959 --> 04:05:41.280 but the Berlin Wall remains an architectural marvel that really 4103 04:05:41.360 --> 04:05:43.920 I don't think, I don't I don't think anybody could 4104 04:05:43.920 --> 04:05:49.040 pull off other than the Germans. And I think we 4105 04:05:49.120 --> 04:05:55.440 can stand by this statement in confidence so that the 4106 04:05:55.479 --> 04:05:59.280 effect of lessening tensions, you know, there wouldn't be another 4107 04:05:59.360 --> 04:06:03.639 Berlin air lift type situation, you know, absent a state 4108 04:06:03.680 --> 04:06:08.120 of general war, it was unthinkable that Berlin v blockaded again. However, 4109 04:06:09.200 --> 04:06:15.399 that didn't obviously accomplished anything in terms of the remedying, 4110 04:06:16.639 --> 04:06:20.600 you know, the problem of of a basing availability in 4111 04:06:20.680 --> 04:06:23.600 West Berlin, and I mean the obviously it was key 4112 04:06:23.680 --> 04:06:25.440 keep in mind is that okay, I mean, the Soviets 4113 04:06:25.479 --> 04:06:28.280 could base their own nuclear forces in the d d R, 4114 04:06:28.879 --> 04:06:33.239 and they could threaten Europe with uh, you know, with 4115 04:06:33.399 --> 04:06:36.159 with with the threat of a cat is driving nuclear assault, 4116 04:06:36.760 --> 04:06:39.360 but that that that wouldn't matter. Like when it came down, 4117 04:06:39.440 --> 04:06:41.040 it was the ability to deter a threat in the 4118 04:06:41.120 --> 04:06:45.000 United States, and obviously the Soviets had no capability to 4119 04:06:45.079 --> 04:06:52.159 do that, which is why UH Cuba became so coveted. Now, 4120 04:06:53.799 --> 04:06:56.639 before we get into the actual development of the crisis, 4121 04:06:57.639 --> 04:07:00.799 let's get into what prevailing conceptual models were for UH 4122 04:07:01.719 --> 04:07:06.559 for strategic planning and in the nuclear age. Okay, the 4123 04:07:06.639 --> 04:07:10.959 two primary models were presented by Hans Morgenthau, who I 4124 04:07:11.000 --> 04:07:13.399 think I referenced in the last episode. You know, morgan 4125 04:07:13.440 --> 04:07:19.680 Tho is a traditional realist. Meerscheimer's a neorealist. You know, 4126 04:07:19.719 --> 04:07:23.920 as I indicated, he he deals with and dealt primarily 4127 04:07:24.000 --> 04:07:30.440 in structures and institutional u features and how they affect 4128 04:07:30.479 --> 04:07:34.799 outcomes as regards us as you know, as regards to 4129 04:07:34.920 --> 04:07:37.360 terrence and war fighting. You know, Morgan thal would he 4130 04:07:37.440 --> 04:07:41.040 basically presented an anthropological model buttressed by what he called 4131 04:07:41.159 --> 04:07:44.319 rational discipline and action. Like what did he mean by that? 4132 04:07:45.120 --> 04:07:47.360 He was saying. What he was basically saying is that, 4133 04:07:48.000 --> 04:07:51.840 you know, the bounded rationality to states at war or 4134 04:07:51.840 --> 04:07:54.040 political actors generally not they don't even have to be 4135 04:07:54.120 --> 04:07:58.360 states so the States obviously are the primary, the primary 4136 04:07:58.440 --> 04:08:01.239 actors in power political affairs. You know, at least from 4137 04:08:01.319 --> 04:08:04.000 sixteen forty eight to the present. That's changing, but it's 4138 04:08:04.000 --> 04:08:10.920 still endures, you know, regardless of how prerational or even 4139 04:08:11.000 --> 04:08:14.799 arguably irrational the origins of war are. Like what it's underway. 4140 04:08:15.079 --> 04:08:18.600 You know, war is guided by this bounded rationality. Okay, 4141 04:08:18.639 --> 04:08:24.840 the waging of it. It begs the question as to 4142 04:08:24.959 --> 04:08:29.440 how you know, as to how as the on this 4143 04:08:29.520 --> 04:08:33.239 has been demonstrated in the historical record, like an Accolade 4144 04:08:33.280 --> 04:08:36.159 Morgan that would say, well, over time, you know, there's there, 4145 04:08:36.159 --> 04:08:39.639 there's a remarkable continuity. Okay, if you're talking about great 4146 04:08:39.719 --> 04:08:41.959 powers at war, where they're talking about the British, the 4147 04:08:42.079 --> 04:08:45.280 United States, you know, Russian foreign policy, you know, even 4148 04:08:45.319 --> 04:08:48.159 the lesser regional powers like the Austranguria Empire, you know, 4149 04:08:48.239 --> 04:08:50.600 in the most failian era, at least over time, this 4150 04:08:50.719 --> 04:08:57.399 bears out. Okay, the the competing model, I mean maybe 4151 04:08:57.440 --> 04:09:02.600 not so much competing and absolute terms, but the uh, 4152 04:09:03.959 --> 04:09:06.559 the kind of game theory model you know that relies 4153 04:09:06.879 --> 04:09:09.600 more on codable variables if you were if you will, 4154 04:09:11.440 --> 04:09:14.440 you know, uh, based upon you know the availability of 4155 04:09:14.520 --> 04:09:18.520 war fighting technologies was kind of was presented by Thomas Shelling. 4156 04:09:18.719 --> 04:09:21.440 Shelling was primarily an economist, but he was a game theorist, 4157 04:09:21.479 --> 04:09:24.399 and he was a public intellectual of the sort that really, 4158 04:09:24.559 --> 04:09:28.879 uh really thrived during the Cold War, and I it 4159 04:09:28.920 --> 04:09:31.280 doesn't really exist anymore, at least not in public life. 4160 04:09:33.799 --> 04:09:37.319 Shilling's old point was that deterrence is accomplished, you know, not, 4161 04:09:38.680 --> 04:09:40.600 you know not not not by the propensities of the 4162 04:09:40.719 --> 04:09:43.799 individual men who are they who are the human decision makers, 4163 04:09:44.159 --> 04:09:46.360 you know, nor a by that relative balance of forces 4164 04:09:46.479 --> 04:09:49.200 on each side. But the stability they're in, and the 4165 04:09:49.239 --> 04:09:53.239 stability they're in comes down to available technologies, and uh, 4166 04:09:53.479 --> 04:09:56.319 in the nuclear age that it comes down to the 4167 04:09:56.399 --> 04:09:59.559 ability of uh each side to basically threaten the other, 4168 04:10:02.680 --> 04:10:06.239 whether a telecatory strike when attacked that you know, makes 4169 04:10:07.159 --> 04:10:10.600 a bolt from the blue assault cost prohibitive, you know, 4170 04:10:12.639 --> 04:10:16.879 unacceptable damage will be endured. In other words, Okay, showing 4171 04:10:17.000 --> 04:10:19.879 seminal texts was the strategy of conflict, Okay, throughout the 4172 04:10:19.920 --> 04:10:24.200 Cold War, this kind of a in foreign policy and 4173 04:10:24.440 --> 04:10:29.520 so either more either directly or obliquely into literally until 4174 04:10:29.559 --> 04:10:32.200 nineteen until the night of November ninet nineteen eighty nine, 4175 04:10:32.719 --> 04:10:35.440 showing is a controversial figure about his influence can't be 4176 04:10:37.040 --> 04:10:42.399 cannot be denied now based on both base based on 4177 04:10:42.520 --> 04:10:45.639 either of those models or both of them considered together. 4178 04:10:46.959 --> 04:10:50.639 Nineteen sixty two, really ninety sixties ninety sixty three was 4179 04:10:50.719 --> 04:10:56.120 so dangerous because they're an equilibrium and not yet set in. 4180 04:10:57.520 --> 04:11:00.479 There's a lack of there's a lack of informational awareness 4181 04:11:00.639 --> 04:11:03.719 on both sides as the absolute state of forces and 4182 04:11:03.840 --> 04:11:12.079 being and capabilities. Even uh, even if uh, even even 4183 04:11:12.079 --> 04:11:17.239 if that awareness had been even if those blinders could 4184 04:11:17.280 --> 04:11:19.159 be as it were, it could be overcome. I mean, 4185 04:11:19.239 --> 04:11:22.479 even if there was a situation a total uh information awareness. 4186 04:11:25.479 --> 04:11:31.479 There's the availability of delivery mechanisms and uh, whether you 4187 04:11:31.559 --> 04:11:36.840 know they're their operational status would have caused a situation 4188 04:11:37.040 --> 04:11:40.319 where it could have served either side's interests to strike 4189 04:11:40.479 --> 04:11:45.879 first without waiting for you know, an intelligence reveal, you know, 4190 04:11:45.959 --> 04:11:48.399 as the absolute status of forces on the opposing side. 4191 04:11:50.920 --> 04:11:54.040 What one what one can think of two men blindfolded, uh, 4192 04:11:54.520 --> 04:11:56.479 and neither's aware of the armament of the other, and 4193 04:11:56.520 --> 04:11:59.600 whether they're trying to draw a bead, you know, the 4194 04:11:59.639 --> 04:12:03.280 threatened the other to deter future hostile acts, but neither's 4195 04:12:03.360 --> 04:12:06.920 cable of seeing you know, his opponent, you know, and 4196 04:12:07.040 --> 04:12:13.079 that's really what in part created, you know, the the 4197 04:12:13.559 --> 04:12:18.200 danger of the Cuba situation. Now, how it first came about, 4198 04:12:18.399 --> 04:12:20.559 like why Cuba again, and more to do with the 4199 04:12:20.639 --> 04:12:23.879 accident of geography. As early as you'rely nineteen sixty two, 4200 04:12:24.120 --> 04:12:30.200 Raouel Castro, who UH was Fiddil's brother and was uh 4201 04:12:31.159 --> 04:12:33.719 in in some ways the shadow foreign policy executive of 4202 04:12:33.799 --> 04:12:39.360 Cuba throughout the Cold War, so we're not even two. 4203 04:12:39.360 --> 04:12:42.120 He visited Moscow, and it's believed that this is when 4204 04:12:42.120 --> 04:12:45.000 the Soviet Union began the large scale shipments of the 4205 04:12:45.120 --> 04:12:48.000 tech of technical and military aid to Cuba, you know, 4206 04:12:48.079 --> 04:12:55.000 including UH the men who were qualified to uh, you know, 4207 04:12:55.120 --> 04:13:01.000 to operate you know, strategic nuclear platforms. UH. August nineteen 4208 04:13:01.000 --> 04:13:05.959 sixty two is probably when UH is probably when the 4209 04:13:06.040 --> 04:13:10.200 actual plant missile platforms arrived in in in Q. They 4210 04:13:10.239 --> 04:13:12.719 were not yet operational, but this is when, you know, 4211 04:13:12.799 --> 04:13:21.079 this is when that disassembled components first arrived on the island. September. Interestingly, 4212 04:13:23.319 --> 04:13:28.760 the UH, the Kennedy administration declared that if Q became 4213 04:13:28.799 --> 04:13:33.079 a base for Soviet nuclear weapons, UH it would it 4214 04:13:33.079 --> 04:13:35.639 would be viewed as an active war. So this is 4215 04:13:35.680 --> 04:13:40.280 on everybody's mind before the crisis, before, but before the 4216 04:13:40.360 --> 04:13:44.239 crisis ensued, and before the reveal of UH, of the 4217 04:13:44.319 --> 04:13:47.479 actual basing of weapons on the island. This gives you 4218 04:13:47.479 --> 04:13:53.200 an idea of UH the dangerous game cruise if was playing. Frankly, okay, now, 4219 04:13:53.639 --> 04:13:56.639 it was Sunday, October fourteenth, that's when the famous or 4220 04:13:56.680 --> 04:14:04.079 infamous YouTube were Constance Flight took the photographs that you 4221 04:14:04.120 --> 04:14:07.360 know ultimately led to their reveal. It was a subsequent 4222 04:14:07.600 --> 04:14:16.200 Monday the fifteenth that conclusively, at the National Photographic Interpretation Center, 4223 04:14:17.440 --> 04:14:22.040 the YouTube film was analyzed and medium range ballistic missiles 4224 04:14:22.079 --> 04:14:28.079 were identified in your san crystal Ball without a doubt. Now, 4225 04:14:28.280 --> 04:14:33.399 thus ensued the most dangerous phase of the crisis. Today, 4226 04:14:33.680 --> 04:14:39.760 October the sixteenth, Kennedy and his UH and his principal 4227 04:14:39.799 --> 04:14:44.639 foreign policy Cabinet were briefed on the situation and discussions 4228 04:14:44.719 --> 04:14:49.120 began immediately on how to respond. Now, obviously there's two 4229 04:14:49.200 --> 04:14:51.479 principal courses. I mean, there's three, you'll get into that 4230 04:14:51.520 --> 04:14:53.760 in a minute. But in terms of action, the two 4231 04:14:53.799 --> 04:14:59.360 principal courses were, you know, a massive, a massive air assault, 4232 04:15:01.200 --> 04:15:04.920 possibly including nuclear forces, and a subsequent invasion of the island, 4233 04:15:06.520 --> 04:15:09.360 you know, the the destruction of the weapons platforms, the 4234 04:15:09.440 --> 04:15:12.920 overthrow of you know, the defeat and utter annihilation of 4235 04:15:12.920 --> 04:15:15.959 the Cuban army, the overthrow of the Castro regime, and 4236 04:15:16.040 --> 04:15:20.200 the occupation of Havana, which undoubtedly would you know, lead 4237 04:15:20.239 --> 04:15:22.079 to the deaths of you know, one hundred of thousands 4238 04:15:22.120 --> 04:15:24.760 of people, including you know, any Soviet soldiers on the 4239 04:15:24.799 --> 04:15:31.600 ground or alternatively sort of a naval quarantine blockade, and 4240 04:15:31.639 --> 04:15:35.520 the threat of future military action. Now interestingly, macnimer was 4241 04:15:35.600 --> 04:15:38.639 the man who had the third position, if you want 4242 04:15:38.639 --> 04:15:42.319 to look at it that way. Mcnamerr Said, don't do anything. 4243 04:15:42.520 --> 04:15:47.079 This doesn't matter. Why doesn't it matter, because you know, 4244 04:15:48.120 --> 04:15:51.200 these intermediate range platforms are going to be obsolete in 4245 04:15:51.280 --> 04:15:56.319 six months, and which was true, you know, and America 4246 04:15:56.399 --> 04:15:59.559 was about to replace their own Jupiter missiles with the 4247 04:15:59.639 --> 04:16:02.920 polar System, you know, which was a submarine launch ballistic 4248 04:16:03.000 --> 04:16:09.440 missile platform. And even whether they're not the case, mac 4249 04:16:09.479 --> 04:16:14.559 namara said, uh, you know, despite despite propaganda of the 4250 04:16:14.639 --> 04:16:17.200 contrary and despite Cruise of it's own statements, you know, 4251 04:16:17.239 --> 04:16:20.079 the Soviet unions, the Soviet Union probably adds between thirty 4252 04:16:20.120 --> 04:16:23.440 and eighty viable warheads. Okay, we get into a we 4253 04:16:23.520 --> 04:16:25.319 get into a nuclear with the Soviet Union, we can 4254 04:16:25.360 --> 04:16:28.440 annihilate them. I mean, yeah, you know, twenty million Americans 4255 04:16:28.479 --> 04:16:30.879 may die, but that's a war the Soviets can't win. 4256 04:16:31.440 --> 04:16:36.159 Do nothing. But that wasn't really the issue. If it was, 4257 04:16:36.760 --> 04:16:41.040 the issue was twofold. I mean, this the Minroe doctrine, obviously, 4258 04:16:41.479 --> 04:16:48.600 and that always UH is controlling on questions of the 4259 04:16:48.680 --> 04:16:52.440 power political affairs. Just on principle, you can't allow UH 4260 04:16:53.319 --> 04:16:57.159 a rival actor to deploy within the Western hemisphere. I mean, 4261 04:16:57.200 --> 04:17:01.280 if you do so, it's you you you're essentially making 4262 04:17:01.399 --> 04:17:03.920 hash with your own line in the sand, as it were. 4263 04:17:04.959 --> 04:17:08.520 It doesn't matter that, you know the I mean, I 4264 04:17:08.559 --> 04:17:13.239 mean even if even if the weapons deployed are already obsolescent, 4265 04:17:13.520 --> 04:17:19.959 it you know, it doesn't matter. And secondly, UH, you know, 4266 04:17:20.040 --> 04:17:25.159 as a matter of a political will, if America won't UH, I, 4267 04:17:25.159 --> 04:17:28.399 America won't fight ninety miles off its own coast to 4268 04:17:28.479 --> 04:17:33.200 prevent the deployment of UH strategic nuclear forces. The credibility 4269 04:17:33.280 --> 04:17:35.520 gap develops as to whether America is gonna fight and 4270 04:17:35.600 --> 04:17:39.399 sacrifice one hundred thousand men to defend West Berlin. You know, 4271 04:17:39.559 --> 04:17:43.559 I mean, God love macnamara, but there's you know, there, 4272 04:17:43.639 --> 04:17:48.719 there's a calculus beyond the beyond the merely uh strategic 4273 04:17:49.159 --> 04:17:51.920 that matters in these things, and particularly in the Cold War, 4274 04:17:52.000 --> 04:17:54.719 which was as much political as it was, you know, 4275 04:17:54.799 --> 04:17:58.520 a military contest, and you know about you know, who 4276 04:17:58.520 --> 04:18:01.520 can accomplish what within you know, the proverbial balance of terror. 4277 04:18:06.079 --> 04:18:13.120 On October seventeenth, before uh A, uh, before a formal 4278 04:18:13.200 --> 04:18:19.680 policy decision was reached, Kennedy ordered a what we consider 4279 04:18:19.719 --> 04:18:22.239 to be rapid reaction forces to be moved to bases 4280 04:18:22.239 --> 04:18:30.959 in the southeastern US. Further, YouTube flights and the photos 4281 04:18:31.000 --> 04:18:36.319 derived therein indicate additional sites and in total of sixteen 4282 04:18:36.360 --> 04:18:40.239 to thirty two missiles. So, in other words, even taking 4283 04:18:40.280 --> 04:18:44.239 with McNamara said a face value, which I believe, which 4284 04:18:44.319 --> 04:18:47.520 Kennedy did, and which I believe we can and you know, 4285 04:18:48.920 --> 04:18:56.719 and upon reflection, obsolescent or not, if those missiles are operational, 4286 04:18:58.200 --> 04:19:02.399 that's the potential for for an utterly devastating counter value 4287 04:19:02.440 --> 04:19:04.600 strike was definitely there, you know, I mean, this was 4288 04:19:04.639 --> 04:19:09.479 not an illusory threat, however anyone feels about it, and 4289 04:19:09.559 --> 04:19:15.440 the character of cashtro is UH is relevant too. You know, 4290 04:19:15.559 --> 04:19:17.479 Cashro whatever gonna be said about him was it was 4291 04:19:17.879 --> 04:19:22.040 was a true revolutionary in the purest sense. And he'd 4292 04:19:22.079 --> 04:19:27.639 repeatedly stated that, and this is revealed later and UH 4293 04:19:28.040 --> 04:19:33.000 communications between himself and UH and the Soviet Foreign Ministry 4294 04:19:33.120 --> 04:19:37.840 and proused of office itself that UH, in the United 4295 04:19:37.879 --> 04:19:40.959 States assaulted Cuba, the Soviet Union should go all in 4296 04:19:41.319 --> 04:19:44.120 and you know, just treated as an act of war 4297 04:19:45.600 --> 04:19:48.360 against the Communist block and and and and and the 4298 04:19:48.399 --> 04:19:52.719 launch of our missiles with an operational decades later, UH, 4299 04:19:54.479 --> 04:20:02.000 at the height of the conflict in Nicaragua, Casher was 4300 04:20:02.079 --> 04:20:04.639 convinced that the United States was going to directly intervene, 4301 04:20:07.000 --> 04:20:10.280 which might trigger a theater white conflagration, and he reiterated 4302 04:20:10.360 --> 04:20:13.479 that the Soviet Union, in the war's uppack, you know, 4303 04:20:13.520 --> 04:20:17.680 should consider UH, you know, a waging prempted nuclear war 4304 04:20:17.760 --> 04:20:20.520 against against NATO. I mean, he really believed this, you know, 4305 04:20:20.600 --> 04:20:26.280 this wasn't you know, it's easy dismiss that it's so 4306 04:20:26.360 --> 04:20:28.520 much bluster. In the case of many men like Cash, 4307 04:20:28.559 --> 04:20:30.360 it absolutely meant that, you know, I mean, I I 4308 04:20:30.440 --> 04:20:34.799 have no doubt about that. So consider that there's a 4309 04:20:34.879 --> 04:20:38.319 question as to whether or not, you know, what what 4310 04:20:38.440 --> 04:20:40.200 the Soviet response would have been if there was a 4311 04:20:40.319 --> 04:20:44.639 massive invasion in Cuba. I mean, there's there's it's more 4312 04:20:44.639 --> 04:20:46.520 than a remal possibility that you know, there would have 4313 04:20:46.559 --> 04:20:49.719 there they would have responded by launching whatever munitions that 4314 04:20:49.799 --> 04:20:54.440 were currently operational. Okay. And again even if that, you know, 4315 04:20:54.520 --> 04:20:56.680 even if that, even if that was a war, the 4316 04:20:56.719 --> 04:20:58.680 Soviet Union could not win that that that would have 4317 04:20:58.799 --> 04:21:00.600 that would that would have meant I need to thirty 4318 04:21:00.600 --> 04:21:11.040 million dead Americans, you know. Within hours, uh Thursday, October eighteenth, 4319 04:21:11.159 --> 04:21:17.280 Kennedy was visited by the Soviet Foreign Minister Gramico, who 4320 04:21:17.920 --> 04:21:22.319 asserted that the soviety to Cuba was purely defensive. Kennedy 4321 04:21:22.399 --> 04:21:26.200 had not yet revealed that he knew of the existence 4322 04:21:26.200 --> 04:21:32.479 of the missiles. He reiterated his public warning of the 4323 04:21:32.559 --> 04:21:36.760 previous September you know that deployment to Cuba strategic nuclear 4324 04:21:36.920 --> 04:21:41.520 forces would constitute an active war. Basically was signaling and 4325 04:21:41.559 --> 04:21:47.719 to give Gramco an out, I believe, okay it And 4326 04:21:49.879 --> 04:21:53.639 this also raised the question as to why why why 4327 04:21:53.680 --> 04:21:55.680 why didn't why didn't cruise to try to de escalate 4328 04:21:55.760 --> 04:21:57.760 when it should have been clear that Kennedy was signaling 4329 04:21:59.360 --> 04:22:01.719 through a kind of you know, would pass for secret 4330 04:22:01.760 --> 04:22:05.680 diplomacy in the post and number of era. Why why 4331 04:22:05.719 --> 04:22:08.239 didn't why what why didn't Why didn't Cruise your trying 4332 04:22:08.239 --> 04:22:11.920 to de escalate the situation. I've got my own ideas 4333 04:22:11.959 --> 04:22:20.680 on that, But what's an arguable is why, uh, why 4334 04:22:20.719 --> 04:22:23.920 Cruise it deployed these weapons in the first place, when 4335 04:22:24.239 --> 04:22:27.600 as we just acknowledged, you know, and as as mac 4336 04:22:27.680 --> 04:22:31.399 and at the time observed, you know, that this actually 4337 04:22:31.479 --> 04:22:36.040 didn't rectify the strategic balance imbalance on its own terms, 4338 04:22:36.360 --> 04:22:40.639 and it had the potential for catastrophic escalations. So why 4339 04:22:40.920 --> 04:22:44.360 why did he do that? I believe that this was 4340 04:22:44.399 --> 04:22:48.360 supposed to be as trump card as regards Berlin. I 4341 04:22:48.479 --> 04:22:52.719 believe that Kruse Scheff UH was going to demand on 4342 04:22:52.799 --> 04:22:56.600 the open floor of the United Nations that UH NATO 4343 04:22:56.680 --> 04:23:03.719 abandoned West Berlin and UH and UH and and UH. 4344 04:23:04.000 --> 04:23:06.559 And when Stevenson or whoever you know, haughtily would just say, 4345 04:23:06.600 --> 04:23:09.360 you know, it's laughable. Of course we're not going to 4346 04:23:09.440 --> 04:23:12.360 do that. At that moment, Cruise Shift would reveal, well, 4347 04:23:12.479 --> 04:23:15.280 you know, we've got operational weapons platforms in Cuba ninety 4348 04:23:15.319 --> 04:23:18.559 miles off your coast. You know, if you want them 4349 04:23:18.639 --> 04:23:21.520 to be removed, you know you'll you'll, you'll see Berlin 4350 04:23:22.079 --> 04:23:25.959 unconditionally our sphere of influence, which seems like the craziest 4351 04:23:26.000 --> 04:23:30.360 hell idea. But Cruise Shift was a gambler, you know, 4352 04:23:30.559 --> 04:23:33.959 for all of his for all of his tendencies UH 4353 04:23:34.559 --> 04:23:39.879 towards reform and a constill literatory posture and absolute terms 4354 04:23:41.840 --> 04:23:46.040 his uh, he viewed none of this as being truly 4355 04:23:46.159 --> 04:23:50.719 possible in power political terms, unless the Soviet Union could negotiate, 4356 04:23:50.959 --> 04:23:54.479 you know, from a position of uh. If not absolute, 4357 04:23:54.639 --> 04:24:01.600 you know, then a relative strength. That's what underlay all 4358 04:24:01.680 --> 04:24:06.479 of this. It was always a political uh ploy more 4359 04:24:06.559 --> 04:24:12.559 than a uh strategic uh move, if that makes any sense. 4360 04:24:13.399 --> 04:24:17.000 And that that's key, not just understanding the Soviet Union 4361 04:24:17.360 --> 04:24:19.639 in it's epoch, but I think the kind of Russian 4362 04:24:19.760 --> 04:24:23.079 national character. Like I don't speak Russian, I've never visited there. 4363 04:24:23.239 --> 04:24:27.440 I'm certainly not an expert on Russian people, their culture 4364 04:24:27.520 --> 04:24:32.840 or their affairs, but I do know something about power politics, 4365 04:24:32.959 --> 04:24:38.760 and uh, I think, uh I I I think that's 4366 04:24:39.520 --> 04:24:41.600 I think, I think I think this is key. Okay, 4367 04:24:42.520 --> 04:24:47.559 Putin himself is something of an unusual executive uh, even 4368 04:24:47.639 --> 04:24:51.760 for Russia, but generally in structural terms, what the Kremlin 4369 04:24:51.840 --> 04:24:55.319 does reflects this same kind of tendency in common. I 4370 04:24:55.879 --> 04:25:03.120 don't I think that's constant. It doesn't change. H. Yeah, up, 4371 04:25:03.520 --> 04:25:09.600 go ahead, we're gonna say something. Okay. October twentieth, UH 4372 04:25:10.760 --> 04:25:17.319 Kennedy UH finally decides on the quarantine plants are drawn up, 4373 04:25:17.799 --> 04:25:23.559 UH to blockade the island of Cuba, notified the American people, 4374 04:25:23.959 --> 04:25:28.040 and UH prepared for war if uh, you know, the 4375 04:25:28.120 --> 04:25:30.239 SOT Union opts to sue for war to break the 4376 04:25:30.600 --> 04:25:39.959 blockade the UH. During this time, Curtis la May maintained 4377 04:25:41.399 --> 04:25:46.159 evociferiously objected. And you know, I I've I made the 4378 04:25:46.200 --> 04:25:49.319 point again and again about you know it may being 4379 04:25:49.440 --> 04:25:53.000 really kind of a towering figure in uh, you know 4380 04:25:53.479 --> 04:25:58.120 in in uh, you know, really really throughout the Cold War, 4381 04:25:59.319 --> 04:26:02.239 but especially he just to force the man's personality and 4382 04:26:02.280 --> 04:26:05.680 I mean think about Kennedy. You basically it was waiting 4383 04:26:05.799 --> 04:26:07.399 up feel bad to kind of win the respect to 4384 04:26:07.440 --> 04:26:09.920 the military establishment. I mean, he was a veteran and 4385 04:26:10.000 --> 04:26:12.399 a war hero, but he was given something of a 4386 04:26:12.479 --> 04:26:14.840 punk rich kid on the beltweigh by many and back 4387 04:26:14.879 --> 04:26:16.239 in those days, I mean you had a lot more 4388 04:26:16.319 --> 04:26:21.520 serious people who you know, kind of carved out niches 4389 04:26:21.600 --> 04:26:26.159 for themselves, and the National security apparatus, you know, what 4390 04:26:26.239 --> 04:26:28.719 we do was the deep state. Today, you know, you 4391 04:26:28.840 --> 04:26:33.360 got Curtis LeMay, Uh, you know, demanding uh, you know, 4392 04:26:34.040 --> 04:26:36.959 demanding Kennedy give an assault order, you know, backed up 4393 04:26:37.920 --> 04:26:42.200 really by you know, the entire Pentagon apparatus. And in 4394 04:26:42.280 --> 04:26:44.559 those days, you know, Strategic Air Command was king. You know, 4395 04:26:44.639 --> 04:26:47.360 it very much eclipsed the Army in terms of its 4396 04:26:47.600 --> 04:26:53.079 you know, uh cloud and policy and in policy authority, 4397 04:26:53.200 --> 04:26:54.840 you know, things like this. You know, I mean whatever, 4398 04:26:55.079 --> 04:26:57.159 I'm not some great fan of Kennedy at all. I 4399 04:26:57.639 --> 04:27:03.399 think anybody kind of instinctively discern who's h at all 4400 04:27:03.440 --> 04:27:06.280 familiar with my content? But uh, you know the guy 4401 04:27:06.360 --> 04:27:08.959 did Kennedy did have balls, and he needed that have backbone. Okay, 4402 04:27:09.040 --> 04:27:14.360 that can't be denied. What really what we're really solidified 4403 04:27:14.440 --> 04:27:22.920 Kennedy's position, though he consulted with uh, General Walter Sweeney 4404 04:27:26.239 --> 04:27:30.479 of a tact the Layer Command, who you know, uh 4405 04:27:31.840 --> 04:27:34.120 and and you know, going back to the Second World War, 4406 04:27:35.239 --> 04:27:38.239 you know, the fighter Mafia and Strategic Air Command liked 4407 04:27:38.879 --> 04:27:42.120 at this kind of ongoing rivalry. I there's there's military 4408 04:27:42.159 --> 04:27:44.399 guys who claim, well, yeah, there's you know, obviously, you know, 4409 04:27:45.120 --> 04:27:47.319 Kennedy tapped Sweeney because he wanted to foil to a A. 4410 04:27:47.840 --> 04:27:49.479 I don't think that's true. I think it was because 4411 04:27:49.520 --> 04:27:53.760 Sweeney was the man who such that experts existed in 4412 04:27:53.879 --> 04:27:58.239 those days on you know, how to knock out on 4413 04:27:58.360 --> 04:28:02.719 how to knock out strategic new clear platforms. You know, 4414 04:28:02.840 --> 04:28:08.559 Sweeney was it. And Sweeney said that, you know, even 4415 04:28:08.600 --> 04:28:11.760 if even with the best possible mission outcome, he cannot 4416 04:28:11.760 --> 04:28:14.879 guarantee one hundred percent destruction of of the missiles. Okay, 4417 04:28:15.799 --> 04:28:18.200 So again you know, this raise the question as to well, 4418 04:28:18.399 --> 04:28:21.600 I mean, the moment, there's a possibility that's not you know, 4419 04:28:21.639 --> 04:28:24.719 and it's it's greater than a slim possibility that the 4420 04:28:24.799 --> 04:28:27.280 moment Cuba came under result, if these platforms were in 4421 04:28:27.360 --> 04:28:30.200 fact operational, the launch order would be given, you know, 4422 04:28:30.399 --> 04:28:32.280 and who even knew the situation on the ground. I mean, 4423 04:28:32.319 --> 04:28:37.159 one would have hope that the Soviet Army technicians responsible 4424 04:28:37.200 --> 04:28:39.559 for the deployment what have ultimate authority, But I mean, 4425 04:28:39.600 --> 04:28:42.399 who's to say, you know, that can't be guaranteed and 4426 04:28:44.040 --> 04:28:52.840 in a a proverbial fog of warst situation. Expressly, delegate 4427 04:28:52.879 --> 04:28:58.559 authority doesn't always carry the day anyway. Monday, October twenty second, 4428 04:28:59.079 --> 04:29:04.200 Kennedy consulted the former presidents Hoover, Truman, and Eisenhower. Briefed 4429 04:29:04.200 --> 04:29:08.559 them on the situation, you know, asked for their support 4430 04:29:10.159 --> 04:29:12.639 if in fact the country uh you know was uh 4431 04:29:13.120 --> 04:29:16.520 what what was going to go to war. He received 4432 04:29:16.559 --> 04:29:20.920 his He received, you know, absolute blessing from all three men. 4433 04:29:21.120 --> 04:29:24.559 He formally established Kennedy did the Executive Committee of the 4434 04:29:24.639 --> 04:29:30.159 National Security Council Young insisting of mc namara, McGeorge, Bundy, 4435 04:29:30.280 --> 04:29:33.239 Curtis Lamey, Bobby Kennedy, who probably should not have been 4436 04:29:33.280 --> 04:29:35.319 in on the conversations. He was the President's brother and 4437 04:29:35.399 --> 04:29:37.680 there's a conflict of interest there, but you know he 4438 04:29:37.920 --> 04:29:42.600 was for better or worse. But that's uh, you know, 4439 04:29:42.680 --> 04:29:45.680 the the smoke filled room, uh with all the personalities 4440 04:29:45.760 --> 04:29:48.840 mentioned they I just mentioned present. You know, you see 4441 04:29:48.879 --> 04:29:51.559 this like dramatized on like History Channel stuff like that's 4442 04:29:51.879 --> 04:29:54.120 that's what they're depicting, the depicting the Executive Committee of 4443 04:29:54.120 --> 04:30:03.920 the National Security Council. Okay, ultimate A. Kennedy Kennedy wrote 4444 04:30:03.959 --> 04:30:12.239 directly to Khrushchev, which seems like a breach of protocol. Uh. 4445 04:30:12.719 --> 04:30:15.639 But the Cold War was strange in this regard. You know, 4446 04:30:15.719 --> 04:30:17.799 it's it's really in my opinion, said the President too. 4447 04:30:17.840 --> 04:30:19.959 You know, there's like people that people talk later in 4448 04:30:20.000 --> 04:30:22.120 the Cold War, by the by the Carter era, it 4449 04:30:22.239 --> 04:30:23.799 was the quote you know, like bat phone or the 4450 04:30:23.840 --> 04:30:26.120 red phone in the White House that was the hotline 4451 04:30:26.120 --> 04:30:29.319 of the Kremlin and vice versa. You know. Uh, this 4452 04:30:29.520 --> 04:30:33.319 idea of of of of heads of state directly kindacting 4453 04:30:33.360 --> 04:30:40.719 one another across uh, across across the enemy divide and 4454 04:30:40.799 --> 04:30:44.200 a potential crisis like it seems improper and the traditional 4455 04:30:44.319 --> 04:30:46.639 kind of laws and customs of war. But the Cold 4456 04:30:46.719 --> 04:30:50.079 War and in some ways was you know, a breach 4457 04:30:50.159 --> 04:30:54.959 of precedent. But in then regardless of of that, that 4458 04:30:55.079 --> 04:30:58.319 the merit of that, or the efficacy of that, or 4459 04:30:58.399 --> 04:31:02.399 the effectiveness of of a neutralizing potential crises. Uh, it 4460 04:31:02.520 --> 04:31:05.520 was probably the correct move for Kennedy to directly right 4461 04:31:06.719 --> 04:31:11.159 to cruise if by telegram, and he did him. Uh, 4462 04:31:12.079 --> 04:31:14.200 he did this prior to addressing the you know, the 4463 04:31:14.280 --> 04:31:17.959 American people by television, which was frankly like you know, 4464 04:31:18.639 --> 04:31:23.520 a sign of respect and say allowing cruise to safe face, 4465 04:31:25.559 --> 04:31:29.920 you know. And uh, the key uh, the key phraseology 4466 04:31:30.360 --> 04:31:33.760 of the telegram was quote, I have not assumed that 4467 04:31:33.840 --> 04:31:36.120 you or any other sane man would, in this nuclear 4468 04:31:36.159 --> 04:31:39.840 age liberally plunge the world into war. What he was 4469 04:31:39.920 --> 04:31:44.680 saying again was basically, you know, deployment to Cuba as 4470 04:31:44.680 --> 04:31:46.520 an act of war. And I'm giving you an out here, 4471 04:31:46.760 --> 04:31:49.319 okay when I'm well within my rights as President United 4472 04:31:49.360 --> 04:31:53.879 States simply to you know, assault the island, neutralize the threat, 4473 04:31:54.520 --> 04:32:00.159 and ask questions later. And uh, regardless of whether is 4474 04:32:00.200 --> 04:32:03.799 correct for Kennedy directly addressed crews with the man himself 4475 04:32:03.840 --> 04:32:06.760 and not go the diplomatic channels. Uh that that that 4476 04:32:06.879 --> 04:32:09.280 was the correct statement, I believe. So again, we gotta 4477 04:32:10.120 --> 04:32:12.159 we've got to give credit recruited to do it to 4478 04:32:12.239 --> 04:32:16.600 mister Kennedy, however else anybody feels about him. Seven pm 4479 04:32:16.680 --> 04:32:20.600 that evening October twenty second, That's when Kennedy speaks on 4480 04:32:20.719 --> 04:32:25.120 television revealing the existence of the Soviet missiles in Cuba, 4481 04:32:26.959 --> 04:32:32.159 announcing the establishment of the quarantine and declaring that you know, 4482 04:32:33.120 --> 04:32:39.479 and until the missiles are removed unconditionally and and and 4483 04:32:39.799 --> 04:32:43.239 completely you know, the the the the quarantine will not 4484 04:32:43.319 --> 04:32:45.920 be lifted, and failure to do so, you know, we'll 4485 04:32:45.959 --> 04:32:50.760 constantly with an active war Secretary of Stateton Dean and 4486 04:32:50.840 --> 04:32:57.600 rusk Uh formally notified the Soviet ambassador, which again, uh, 4487 04:32:58.760 --> 04:33:00.959 that's not just part of good office, is it indicated 4488 04:33:01.000 --> 04:33:04.759 the severity of Kennedy's statement, that's essentially what you do 4489 04:33:05.000 --> 04:33:12.319 when incident, you know, preceding a formal declaration of war. Okay, 4490 04:33:15.439 --> 04:33:17.360 So that's another thing to consider as well. Also, like 4491 04:33:17.479 --> 04:33:19.520 we talked a lot about, even though I don't really 4492 04:33:19.560 --> 04:33:24.159 accept the mere Sermi model about institutions determining you know, 4493 04:33:24.279 --> 04:33:28.959 the course of power, political events and crisis outcomes, there 4494 04:33:29.159 --> 04:33:32.759 is a momentum to the apparatus of government, particularly as 4495 04:33:32.799 --> 04:33:36.479 regards war and peace, and once kind of the mechanism 4496 04:33:36.720 --> 04:33:40.479 of war mobilization is in place, it's very, very difficult 4497 04:33:40.599 --> 04:33:44.720 to put the brakes on it. Okay. The fact that 4498 04:33:44.840 --> 04:33:48.520 Kennedy was entirely serious about going to war, waging nuclear 4499 04:33:48.599 --> 04:33:53.919 war over Cuba, that itself created conditions of escalation. I'm 4500 04:33:53.919 --> 04:33:55.639 not saying that's the wrong thing to do at all. 4501 04:33:55.959 --> 04:33:57.759 Quite the contrary, is the right thing to do. But 4502 04:33:58.119 --> 04:34:01.520 this added to the danger. At every step decisions that 4503 04:34:01.599 --> 04:34:06.959 are made that lead to UH real world outcomes in 4504 04:34:07.080 --> 04:34:11.599 the national security apparatus in a state of readiness and deployment, 4505 04:34:13.240 --> 04:34:17.959 it creates an elevated UH. It creates an elevated danger. Okay, 4506 04:34:19.720 --> 04:34:22.919 there's there's a sociological question there, there's a comics question 4507 04:34:23.000 --> 04:34:26.400 of you know, managed relationship to technology. I A lot 4508 04:34:26.400 --> 04:34:30.799 of that stuff is like far beyond my abilities, okay 4509 04:34:31.000 --> 04:34:38.959 to analyze. But what I just stated is indisputably true. Susay, 4510 04:34:38.959 --> 04:34:46.520 October twenty third. The following day, Assistant Secretary of State 4511 04:34:47.119 --> 04:34:52.040 Martin he Uh start a resolution from the Organization of 4512 04:34:52.080 --> 04:34:57.200 American States and the oas UH. I mean, these days 4513 04:34:57.240 --> 04:34:58.599 we think of it as you know, primarily like a 4514 04:34:58.680 --> 04:35:01.279 trade block and things like that. During the Cold War, 4515 04:35:01.520 --> 04:35:06.400 obviously it had it had it had profound UH geostrategic significance, 4516 04:35:06.919 --> 04:35:09.200 you know, because any if you're gonna wage war in 4517 04:35:09.319 --> 04:35:13.240 Latin America, which was a very real possibility throughout the 4518 04:35:13.279 --> 04:35:19.319 duration of the Cold War, a quorum of support from 4519 04:35:19.400 --> 04:35:23.279 friendly regimes they were in was absolutely essential for obvious reasons. 4520 04:35:28.000 --> 04:35:35.119 The the Soviets proceeded UH two UH to deploy submarines 4521 04:35:35.439 --> 04:35:38.479 UH to the Caribbean Sea, which were facing off immediately 4522 04:35:38.520 --> 04:35:50.000 opposite the the the US Navy blockade vessels, which again 4523 04:35:50.119 --> 04:36:01.639 to the UH and indicated UH a Soviet willingness to 4524 04:36:01.720 --> 04:36:07.200 fight and to keep uh, you know, to fight at 4525 04:36:07.279 --> 04:36:10.799 least defensively if Cuba was assaulted, you know, I mean, Uh, 4526 04:36:11.720 --> 04:36:15.119 it became clear immediately that the Soviets were intending to 4527 04:36:15.200 --> 04:36:17.520 fight for Cuba, like to what degree they're going to 4528 04:36:17.599 --> 04:36:21.759 do that, whether the missiles were operational or not. You know, 4529 04:36:21.840 --> 04:36:24.759 the the Soviet Navy was going to fight, and that 4530 04:36:24.959 --> 04:36:30.479 added another uh, that ended another wrinkle, as it were, 4531 04:36:30.639 --> 04:36:35.840 because even if, even if, even if the Bliss, even 4532 04:36:35.840 --> 04:36:41.439 if the nuclear capable platforms were not operational, a conventional 4533 04:36:41.560 --> 04:36:45.599 war in Cuba with the Soviet Union, obviously there was 4534 04:36:45.599 --> 04:36:48.680 gonna be some sort of response in Berlin, Okay, I mean, 4535 04:36:48.720 --> 04:36:53.599 and then it's you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're 4536 04:36:53.599 --> 04:36:56.200 dealing with the potential conflict diad that were result in 4537 04:36:56.240 --> 04:36:59.759 the Third World War at some point, you know, down 4538 04:37:01.520 --> 04:37:11.840 down down range of of of hostilities. Wednesday, October twenty 4539 04:37:11.919 --> 04:37:20.919 fourth Cruiser responded to the Kennedy UH, to the Kennedy 4540 04:37:21.000 --> 04:37:25.680 telegram stating that, uh, the Soviet Union does not respond 4541 04:37:25.720 --> 04:37:42.000 to ultimatums under threat, you know, uh, stating quote, if 4542 04:37:42.040 --> 04:37:44.119 we react we as these demands, it would mean guiding 4543 04:37:44.159 --> 04:37:46.560 oneself and one's relationship with other countries, not by reason. 4544 04:37:46.759 --> 04:37:51.119 By submitting to arbitrariness, you are no longer appealing to reason, 4545 04:37:51.200 --> 04:38:02.240 but wish to intimidate US. Thursday October twenty fifth was 4546 04:38:02.279 --> 04:38:05.560 when the crisis could be said to have broke in 4547 04:38:05.680 --> 04:38:09.000 some ways. Soviet freighters that have been bound for Cuba 4548 04:38:10.159 --> 04:38:19.159 turned back to Bucharest UN Secretary General. The UN Secretary 4549 04:38:19.279 --> 04:38:26.240 General called for a quote cooling off period during which 4550 04:38:26.279 --> 04:38:29.840 the embargo would be temporarily lifted and you know, only 4551 04:38:29.919 --> 04:38:33.040 non military product would be permitted to pass through. This 4552 04:38:33.200 --> 04:38:37.040 is rejected outright by the Kennedy administration and grounds they 4553 04:38:37.080 --> 04:38:39.599 would leave the missiles in place the removal which was 4554 04:38:39.599 --> 04:38:47.119 an express condition but a negotiation. Priday, October twenty sixth, 4555 04:38:48.840 --> 04:38:53.159 with the date of the infamous cashiw letter urging cruise 4556 04:38:53.159 --> 04:38:58.759 shift to initiate a first strike against the United States 4557 04:38:58.919 --> 04:39:04.319 an event of invading of Cuba. Whether Cruth did responded 4558 04:39:04.439 --> 04:39:08.840 or not, or whether Ramigo responded whether the ambassador to 4559 04:39:08.959 --> 04:39:14.240 Cuba had any sort of formal response in the Kremlin, 4560 04:39:14.439 --> 04:39:21.279 It's not clear. But again there's an inference that can 4561 04:39:21.360 --> 04:39:26.200 be drawn here. I believe not only the Cubans not 4562 04:39:26.479 --> 04:39:30.840 have the authority to launch the missiles, I don't believe 4563 04:39:30.880 --> 04:39:36.639 they were capable of it. There's an entire protocol to 4564 04:39:38.080 --> 04:39:41.759 launching a nuclear missile. It's not just a question of 4565 04:39:41.840 --> 04:39:47.680 pushing a button or having the right code, you know it, uh, 4566 04:39:47.959 --> 04:39:55.080 like in the movies. So the odds of ah of 4567 04:39:55.200 --> 04:39:58.319 just a general like counter value AsSalt nuclear result if 4568 04:39:58.400 --> 04:40:02.200 Cube had been invaded, I think it's somewhat remote. I 4569 04:40:02.240 --> 04:40:05.000 don't think I'm reading too much into this statement by Castro. 4570 04:40:05.159 --> 04:40:07.799 I mean, why this was a private communication at cruise 4571 04:40:07.840 --> 04:40:09.639 if like, well, why would cash will be you know, 4572 04:40:09.840 --> 04:40:12.919 flexing in that kind of private capacity, Like it doesn't 4573 04:40:13.759 --> 04:40:15.639 It doesn't make sense otherwise, you know, you know what 4574 04:40:15.720 --> 04:40:21.560 I mean, like it yeah, yeah, yeah, but it the 4575 04:40:21.759 --> 04:40:33.360 uh finally and finally, UH resolution ultimately came when the 4576 04:40:33.439 --> 04:40:37.720 cruise schiff wrote a long, rambling letter a second letter, 4577 04:40:39.119 --> 04:40:41.360 a few drafts of which, when the Soviet archives were open, 4578 04:40:41.439 --> 04:40:43.560 were found and leading a lot of people to believe 4579 04:40:43.599 --> 04:40:46.000 the cruiser was drunk when he wrote or dictated it, 4580 04:40:46.400 --> 04:40:49.080 which is probably true. It's not just you know, some 4581 04:40:49.240 --> 04:40:53.639 kind of punitive revisionist account like cruise Iff really was 4582 04:40:53.799 --> 04:40:56.680 drunk and in the execution of his official duties a lot, 4583 04:40:57.000 --> 04:41:01.680 you know it, uh, which oh was in part ohs 4584 04:41:02.959 --> 04:41:07.520 you know, to his his apparent instability. This is the 4585 04:41:07.639 --> 04:41:09.639 source of the of the quote, you know, demand that 4586 04:41:09.680 --> 04:41:14.520 America pledged to not invade Cuba, Like what in power politics? 4587 04:41:14.560 --> 04:41:17.119 What is some open ended pledge and not invade another 4588 04:41:17.200 --> 04:41:19.319 country amount? I mean that that doesn't amount to anything, 4589 04:41:19.599 --> 04:41:23.680 even as a face saving measure. It doesn't really make 4590 04:41:23.720 --> 04:41:26.840 any sense. This is immediately followed up by a second 4591 04:41:26.880 --> 04:41:31.360 letter from Moscow, which probably came from gram Ego or 4592 04:41:31.439 --> 04:41:36.159 from somebody in the Politburo Standing Committee or it's equivalent. 4593 04:41:37.279 --> 04:41:43.599 This second letter demanded actual conditions be met, primarily the 4594 04:41:43.720 --> 04:41:50.319 removal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey. Now Turkey and Italy 4595 04:41:50.439 --> 04:41:55.520 were these Jupiter missiles were intermediate range ballistic missiles that 4596 04:41:55.639 --> 04:42:00.680 have been deployed in I think nineteen fifty seven, fifty seven, 4597 04:42:00.799 --> 04:42:03.520 fifty eight around there, maybe as late as fifty nine, 4598 04:42:03.560 --> 04:42:06.319 but I'd have to double check that. I'm sure somebody 4599 04:42:06.319 --> 04:42:08.000 in the comments will wrake me over the colls if 4600 04:42:08.000 --> 04:42:11.400 I'm misstating the date they were deployed in Italy and 4601 04:42:11.439 --> 04:42:15.759 deployed in Turkey. As I said, by this, at this 4602 04:42:15.919 --> 04:42:20.360 point they were not strategic nuclear forces based in West Germany. 4603 04:42:21.159 --> 04:42:26.479 But the Soviets made much of this at the UN 4604 04:42:26.799 --> 04:42:30.080 in their own propaganda and formal objections to Department of State. 4605 04:42:31.040 --> 04:42:35.240 But these Jupiter missiles were on the cust of being obsolete, 4606 04:42:35.360 --> 04:42:38.840 you know, like we talked about earlier, the Polaris submarine 4607 04:42:38.880 --> 04:42:42.919 system was due to be launched within months, and it 4608 04:42:43.000 --> 04:42:49.439 was ultimately fielded in sixty three sixty four. And so 4609 04:42:50.000 --> 04:42:52.400 I mean this is basically meaningless. I mean, okay, as 4610 04:42:52.400 --> 04:42:57.840 a safe face, as a face saving gesture, maybe it 4611 04:42:57.919 --> 04:43:02.400 carried some weight, but I I think the I think 4612 04:43:02.439 --> 04:43:06.000 the Soviets were were still very much lagging and in 4613 04:43:06.119 --> 04:43:11.759 terms of the technological gap as regards strategic nuclear delivery systems, 4614 04:43:12.200 --> 04:43:15.400 that changed dramatically in the seventies for reasons we'll get 4615 04:43:15.439 --> 04:43:20.279 into in subsequent episodes. But this was the source of 4616 04:43:21.599 --> 04:43:23.360 this was the source of the concession. If you want 4617 04:43:23.400 --> 04:43:28.560 to look at it like that to UH remove to 4618 04:43:28.680 --> 04:43:36.400 remove the missiles from Turkey, and that UH that night, 4619 04:43:36.919 --> 04:43:43.599 UH Robert Kennedy met secretly with the Soviet ambassador and 4620 04:43:43.959 --> 04:43:48.360 they reached a basic understanding that the Soviet Union would 4621 04:43:48.680 --> 04:43:53.159 draw their their strategic nuclear platforms from Cuba under United 4622 04:43:53.240 --> 04:43:58.520 Nations supervision. In addition to UH an American pledge, you know, 4623 04:43:58.599 --> 04:44:04.639 this pledge not to invade you, and a secret understanding, 4624 04:44:05.040 --> 04:44:08.880 as it was referred to two, you know, to remove 4625 04:44:08.919 --> 04:44:11.680 the Jupiter MISSIALI from Turkey. And this too, I believe, 4626 04:44:11.759 --> 04:44:15.840 substantiates what I just said about the Soviets not really 4627 04:44:16.080 --> 04:44:18.720 realizing that the Jupiter platform was going to be absolutely 4628 04:44:18.799 --> 04:44:20.680 because like if it was just a face saving measure, 4629 04:44:20.680 --> 04:44:22.919 why wouldn't they make it public? Like they thought these 4630 04:44:22.959 --> 04:44:25.599 platforms were viable and they thought they were getting something, 4631 04:44:26.159 --> 04:44:29.560 you know it because the fact that it was UH, 4632 04:44:30.840 --> 04:44:32.880 the fact that it was not an above board concession 4633 04:44:33.200 --> 04:44:35.520 that the defeats the entire purpose of any of any 4634 04:44:35.520 --> 04:44:38.479 political theater that you know, might have might might have 4635 04:44:38.520 --> 04:44:45.360 been utilized by way of it of such a gesture. Now, 4636 04:44:47.400 --> 04:44:51.560 the problem with UH that the problem was this, and 4637 04:44:51.680 --> 04:44:53.639 in the view of people like LeMay but also in 4638 04:44:54.040 --> 04:44:56.279 the in the minds of people like Shelling and Trank, 4639 04:44:56.400 --> 04:45:03.680 even people like Herman Khan, there's a sense that eventually 4640 04:45:03.799 --> 04:45:07.319 conflict with the Soviet Union was inevitable, okay, and owing 4641 04:45:07.479 --> 04:45:10.279 the precedent of the twentieth century, that seemed reasonable. That 4642 04:45:10.400 --> 04:45:13.080 wasn't just a warmonger's kind of fantasy, you know, it 4643 04:45:13.200 --> 04:45:16.799 wasn't just you know, something that you know, cynical career 4644 04:45:16.959 --> 04:45:21.080 is in the national security establishment, like to say, or 4645 04:45:21.159 --> 04:45:23.759 bandy about, because it rationalized, you know, the kind of 4646 04:45:23.840 --> 04:45:25.959 cloud they had. I mean, yeah, there was some of that. 4647 04:45:26.680 --> 04:45:29.159 But if you were if you were, if you were 4648 04:45:29.159 --> 04:45:34.119 a middle aged man in nineteen sixty two, who who 4649 04:45:34.639 --> 04:45:38.080 whose entire career had been as a you know, in 4650 04:45:38.159 --> 04:45:44.400 public service, directly insinuated in the national security establishment, like 4651 04:45:44.520 --> 04:45:49.000 your entire your your entire professional life had been characterized 4652 04:45:49.040 --> 04:45:56.200 by by by by negotiating crises of a of of 4653 04:45:56.599 --> 04:45:59.880 of of basic national security and and and and conditions 4654 04:45:59.880 --> 04:46:04.680 of of general warfare or price short of but approaching 4655 04:46:04.799 --> 04:46:07.759 general warfare. You know this this just seemed to be 4656 04:46:07.919 --> 04:46:12.799 the reality the twentieth century strategic landscape. So that being said, 4657 04:46:13.159 --> 04:46:18.840 if eventually, you know, conflict is inevitable. You've got an obligation, 4658 04:46:19.560 --> 04:46:22.159 you know, to defend the United States at all costs. 4659 04:46:22.560 --> 04:46:26.159 And if that means preemptively, you know, waging a nuclear 4660 04:46:26.240 --> 04:46:28.759 war against the Soviet Union and we're so upacked, you know, 4661 04:46:28.880 --> 04:46:33.000 to absolutely defeat them before strategic nuclear parody is accomplished, 4662 04:46:33.599 --> 04:46:35.840 then that is, in fact, you know, not just the 4663 04:46:35.919 --> 04:46:38.520 moral thing to do, but that is what you're obligated 4664 04:46:38.560 --> 04:46:41.560 to do incident to you know, your office and the 4665 04:46:41.639 --> 04:46:46.759 duties incumbent they're in. And that was really kind of 4666 04:46:46.759 --> 04:46:50.080 the This underlay a lot of what was going on 4667 04:46:50.360 --> 04:46:53.959 in you know, the proverbial war room, Okay, around Kennedy. 4668 04:46:54.080 --> 04:46:58.959 It wasn't just you know, it wasn't you know, like 4669 04:46:59.080 --> 04:47:01.479 the way people like Oliver Stone characterize it, like these 4670 04:47:01.560 --> 04:47:05.000 kind of crazy cold warhawk warmongers, and you know, these 4671 04:47:05.080 --> 04:47:07.560 kinds of men of like better natured you know, saying no, 4672 04:47:07.680 --> 04:47:09.200 we're not going to go to war, Like it's not 4673 04:47:10.400 --> 04:47:13.479 that's entirely the wrong way to conceptualize it. I mean, yeah, again, 4674 04:47:13.599 --> 04:47:16.240 I don't have any illusions about a lot of these 4675 04:47:16.279 --> 04:47:20.680 people at all. Like there were there were personalities, you know, 4676 04:47:20.880 --> 04:47:25.400 insinuated in and rolls the highest authority in the Cold 4677 04:47:25.479 --> 04:47:28.159 War who definitely were like that, you know, who definitely 4678 04:47:28.240 --> 04:47:31.799 did not have the national interests in mind, or they 4679 04:47:31.840 --> 04:47:33.720 thought they did, but you know, they were clouded by 4680 04:47:34.080 --> 04:47:38.360 you know, matters of a of a pride or or whatever. 4681 04:47:38.560 --> 04:47:40.520 I mean. I think I think Thomas Power as being 4682 04:47:40.560 --> 04:47:43.799 one of those types. Frankly, but this is uh, but 4683 04:47:43.880 --> 04:47:45.880 that's what's essential to keep in mind, particularly because like 4684 04:47:45.959 --> 04:47:49.159 I said, even people, even people are somewhat you know, 4685 04:47:49.240 --> 04:47:53.959 sympathetic to you know politics, the right or you know, 4686 04:47:54.040 --> 04:47:58.000 revisionist perspectives. You know, they continue to cast people like, uh, 4687 04:47:58.680 --> 04:48:01.560 they can cast people like as what I just said, 4688 04:48:01.599 --> 04:48:05.000 these kinds of strange love or Janette Ripper type characters. 4689 04:48:05.119 --> 04:48:10.240 But uh, it uh, forgiving of this was kind of dry. 4690 04:48:10.400 --> 04:48:16.119 It was essential to kind of explain like how that 4691 04:48:16.360 --> 04:48:22.639 entire paradigm developed of the Cuba crisis, and it's uh, 4692 04:48:23.240 --> 04:48:25.639 the shadow of it loomed large. I don't just mean 4693 04:48:25.759 --> 04:48:29.759 like in metaphorical terms, but uh, in terms of how 4694 04:48:29.880 --> 04:48:35.639 policy was conducted as regards to Terrence and and uh 4695 04:48:36.880 --> 04:48:40.360 and the strategic balance and the Cold War, and this 4696 04:48:40.520 --> 04:48:43.959 really endured until nineteen eighty three and nineteen eighty three 4697 04:48:44.119 --> 04:48:45.799 was so dangerous, you know, I mean that's the Able 4698 04:48:45.919 --> 04:48:48.040 Archer era. That's the way it kind of Cold War 4699 04:48:48.119 --> 04:48:52.720 storians think of it. But but preceded Able Archer. And 4700 04:48:52.799 --> 04:48:55.400 one of the things that you know, created the conditions 4701 04:48:55.479 --> 04:48:58.279 that that that that led to the war scare was 4702 04:48:58.439 --> 04:49:01.599 uh that threatened to play event of the person two 4703 04:49:01.720 --> 04:49:05.599 platform in West Germany, you know, which really was a 4704 04:49:05.639 --> 04:49:08.400 game changer, and you know, the the end of day 4705 04:49:08.439 --> 04:49:12.319 Todd really kind of shattered the assumptions that underlay uh, 4706 04:49:13.000 --> 04:49:19.720 you know, deterrence uh from the Cuban missile crisis onward. 4707 04:49:20.400 --> 04:49:25.680 That's a complicated issue, but we'll get into uh, we'll 4708 04:49:25.720 --> 04:49:31.400 get into uh Johnson, Vietnam and Nixon next episode. Nixon 4709 04:49:31.479 --> 04:49:33.360 is gonna take more than one episode, but I will 4710 04:49:33.400 --> 04:49:38.279 at least like get into uh Nixon's first term next time, 4711 04:49:39.040 --> 04:49:42.759 UH incident, our discussion of uh of Johnson and Vietnam 4712 04:49:42.840 --> 04:49:46.560 and all right, I mean we'll see, depending on how 4713 04:49:46.560 --> 04:49:48.799 long your own to go, but yeah, we'll we'll we'll 4714 04:49:48.799 --> 04:49:51.560 get into some of that stuff. Uh yeah, yeah, And again, 4715 04:49:51.599 --> 04:49:53.000 forgive me if that was a if this was a 4716 04:49:53.119 --> 04:49:56.880 dry episode, it was essential to kind of lay foundation 4717 04:49:57.040 --> 04:49:59.040 for what comes subsequent No. 4718 04:49:59.159 --> 04:50:01.279 I think this is a a topic of interest for 4719 04:50:01.319 --> 04:50:04.080 a lot of people. I can't let you go without 4720 04:50:04.439 --> 04:50:06.919 mentioning having you mentioned the Bay of Pigs. 4721 04:50:08.959 --> 04:50:13.080 Yeah it, Uh, I think what the Bay of Pigs 4722 04:50:13.119 --> 04:50:18.720 owes to more than anything. I mean, the traditional kind 4723 04:50:18.799 --> 04:50:21.400 of discourse on it, you know, is it's like, do 4724 04:50:21.520 --> 04:50:23.799 we blame like, you know, the CIA and Department of State, 4725 04:50:23.880 --> 04:50:26.279 or do we blame the president of the National Security Establishment. 4726 04:50:27.200 --> 04:50:31.200 It's not that simple. There's a lot of there's a 4727 04:50:31.240 --> 04:50:35.319 long history. Uh. I was reading about Angola a lot 4728 04:50:35.439 --> 04:50:38.439 some years back, and you know, one of the reasons 4729 04:50:38.479 --> 04:50:41.439 why those poor guys, uh who ended up a servant 4730 04:50:41.520 --> 04:50:45.720 under callon a guy got got massacred, I mean by 4731 04:50:45.759 --> 04:50:48.119 the Cubans and by the by the Angolan out forces. 4732 04:50:48.439 --> 04:50:52.400 Like holding Roberto. He basically sold British intelligence and CIA 4733 04:50:52.439 --> 04:50:54.720 a bill of goods, you know about the reality of 4734 04:50:54.840 --> 04:50:56.520 like forces and being on the ground and what they 4735 04:50:56.560 --> 04:51:01.360 were capable of. The anti Castro Cuban Bobby Similarly, they 4736 04:51:01.400 --> 04:51:04.080 either shipped together a lot more than somebody like mister Roberto, 4737 04:51:04.680 --> 04:51:06.720 but they had a lot more money, and they had 4738 04:51:06.759 --> 04:51:08.639 a lot more flash, and they had a lot more 4739 04:51:09.080 --> 04:51:14.400 kind of cloud than they did actual capabilities. Okay, I 4740 04:51:14.479 --> 04:51:17.240 think there's a lot of people even in the intelligence community, 4741 04:51:17.319 --> 04:51:20.080 and I've got nothing nice to say generally about, you know, 4742 04:51:20.240 --> 04:51:23.520 the CIA of the era. But I think they had 4743 04:51:23.799 --> 04:51:26.759 I I think, I think they had good intentions within 4744 04:51:26.840 --> 04:51:30.520 the irrationality of what they were trying to accomplish. And uh, 4745 04:51:32.319 --> 04:51:36.880 I think, uh I, I yeah, it was nive. Maybe 4746 04:51:37.000 --> 04:51:39.479 maybe it was naive to think that they could accomplish 4747 04:51:39.880 --> 04:51:41.639 what they set out too with what I'm onted to 4748 04:51:41.680 --> 04:51:45.959 a skeleton crew of of cowboy type mercenaries and UH 4749 04:51:46.240 --> 04:51:49.919 and self styled uh uh you know, and self styled 4750 04:51:50.040 --> 04:51:54.360 uh counter revolutionaries. But they also they underestimated the strength 4751 04:51:54.439 --> 04:51:57.680 of UH of of Castro and the gameness of a 4752 04:51:58.400 --> 04:52:01.000 of the Cuban army. And this was entirely clear into 4753 04:52:01.080 --> 04:52:03.759 later Like speaking of Angola, you know, the Cubans deployed 4754 04:52:03.840 --> 04:52:07.040 fifty thousand deep to Angola. They fought the South African 4755 04:52:07.119 --> 04:52:09.639 Defense Forces. It was with the Crack army, you know, 4756 04:52:09.720 --> 04:52:13.119 and they they met him head on, you know, the Cubans. Uh, 4757 04:52:13.479 --> 04:52:16.439 the Cubans were basically constantly deployed throughout the Cold War, 4758 04:52:17.000 --> 04:52:20.599 you know, like they they really believed in the margins 4759 04:52:20.759 --> 04:52:25.799 Len and his cause did Uh would air cover have 4760 04:52:25.880 --> 04:52:30.520 made a difference? I mean, I it wouldn't have hurt 4761 04:52:30.560 --> 04:52:34.360 any But I mean I don't this idea too. It's like, okay, 4762 04:52:34.439 --> 04:52:38.439 let's say, you know, let's say uh, let's let's let's 4763 04:52:38.439 --> 04:52:41.919 say this. Uh, let's say this kind of like you know, 4764 04:52:42.080 --> 04:52:45.840 mercenary army, you know, had uh had ground assault air 4765 04:52:45.919 --> 04:52:49.040 craft and and air cover all day. You know, Cuba 4766 04:52:49.119 --> 04:52:51.080 cub would have just like Commy's cub wouldn't just like 4767 04:52:51.159 --> 04:52:54.159 fallen apart the minute like these guys marched on on Havana. 4768 04:52:54.319 --> 04:52:59.400 I mean, the Cuban still was. I mean, the Cuba 4769 04:52:59.720 --> 04:53:01.360 they were. They're down for the cause. I mean, in 4770 04:53:01.400 --> 04:53:04.639 this day as much as anybody can be. I mean it, uh, 4771 04:53:05.560 --> 04:53:07.000 I mean I read it like that. I don't think 4772 04:53:07.000 --> 04:53:14.880 it was realistic, the only the only Uh yeah, I don't. 4773 04:53:15.799 --> 04:53:18.639 I don't think there's a military solution to the Cuba problem, 4774 04:53:19.360 --> 04:53:21.880 you know, like there, I just don't. I mean that's 4775 04:53:21.919 --> 04:53:23.520 my take on it, like at a glance, And we 4776 04:53:23.560 --> 04:53:25.479 can do a dedicated episode on it if you want. 4777 04:53:26.599 --> 04:53:31.119 There's a lot there, but that's just you know, I 4778 04:53:32.040 --> 04:53:35.119 my point is it's like, I mean, even one of 4779 04:53:35.119 --> 04:53:38.479 the reasons that you know, and like jump to go 4780 04:53:38.520 --> 04:53:41.000 a little bit outside the scope. But you know, let's say, 4781 04:53:41.599 --> 04:53:45.159 let's say the counterfactual developed that you know, we I 4782 04:53:45.439 --> 04:53:47.400 I kind of touched on. You know, let's say that 4783 04:53:47.680 --> 04:53:50.959 you know, let let's take let's say America did assault 4784 04:53:51.000 --> 04:53:54.880 Cuba in nineteen in nineteen sixty two, okay, and then 4785 04:53:55.840 --> 04:53:59.799 the nukes weren't operational, and the Soviets didn't do anything 4786 04:53:59.840 --> 04:54:02.159 and lynn and it didn't escalate. It was just you know, 4787 04:54:02.720 --> 04:54:05.840 the Marines and us Aeerborne Corps or eighteen Airborne Corps 4788 04:54:05.840 --> 04:54:09.959 and you know, uh and uh in the us araforce 4789 04:54:10.040 --> 04:54:12.360 pounding the hell out of Cuba, you know, killing half 4790 04:54:12.439 --> 04:54:14.959 million people. You know, like what what then where you 4791 04:54:15.680 --> 04:54:18.639 I mean affecting some permanent hosta ogervation at Cuba like 4792 04:54:18.680 --> 04:54:20.959 would have been a bloodbath, you know, like think like 4793 04:54:21.040 --> 04:54:22.479 think about that, like that would that would have been 4794 04:54:22.479 --> 04:54:25.560 a complete freaking mess, you know, Like I don't, I 4795 04:54:25.639 --> 04:54:28.680 don't uh, I don't think there was a I don't 4796 04:54:28.680 --> 04:54:31.119 think there was a political there. I don't think it 4797 04:54:31.159 --> 04:54:34.119 was a military solution to it. One of the reasons why, 4798 04:54:34.919 --> 04:54:37.080 you know, I'm one of the few people, even though 4799 04:54:37.479 --> 04:54:41.279 I'm far from any kind of like like Cold War 4800 04:54:41.360 --> 04:54:43.759 hawk in in the study of history as I think, 4801 04:54:43.840 --> 04:54:51.040 you know, but I consistently praise I, you know, us 4802 04:54:51.159 --> 04:54:55.040 efforts uh in uh in, you know, in in the 4803 04:54:55.159 --> 04:54:58.599 Cone of South America and then later you know in 4804 04:54:58.799 --> 04:55:03.119 uh in in Central America and the Panama Canal zone, 4805 04:55:03.520 --> 04:55:07.279 you know, to resist uh warsaw packed ingress because that 4806 04:55:07.360 --> 04:55:10.959 was absolutely essential, because that would have in military terms, 4807 04:55:10.959 --> 04:55:14.159 America was actively losing the Cold War in the final phase, okay. 4808 04:55:14.759 --> 04:55:20.240 And if if Latin America had truly gone red in 4809 04:55:20.360 --> 04:55:26.279 these key locations, that would have that that that would 4810 04:55:26.400 --> 04:55:28.959 that would that would have totally changed things. But notice 4811 04:55:29.080 --> 04:55:32.319 what Nixon and then later Reagan administration didn't do is 4812 04:55:32.639 --> 04:55:35.200 didn't go in heavy you know, they made they went 4813 04:55:35.240 --> 04:55:37.840 into a very small footprint, okay, and they developed very 4814 04:55:37.840 --> 04:55:40.599 effective convolutionary cadres. You know what I'm saying that the 4815 04:55:40.639 --> 04:55:43.599 conferences weren't like nice guys or something, Okay, like the 4816 04:55:43.680 --> 04:55:48.439 Bison was not a nice guy. There was neither general finish, 4817 04:55:49.000 --> 04:55:51.360 but they were effective guys, and they weren't they weren't 4818 04:55:51.400 --> 04:55:53.200 just guys who were in it to you know, get 4819 04:55:53.279 --> 04:55:56.040 paid and advanced their own you know kind of cloud 4820 04:55:56.119 --> 04:55:58.759 and status. I mean, but my point is that, you know, 4821 04:55:59.799 --> 04:56:04.200 the the American uh national security apparatus treated it as 4822 04:56:04.240 --> 04:56:07.360 a political problem. Not is this like military exigency, you know, 4823 04:56:07.560 --> 04:56:10.400 like we're gonna we're gonna going to Nicaragua with fifty 4824 04:56:10.479 --> 04:56:13.520 thousand marines and kill everybody like that. No, that that 4825 04:56:14.119 --> 04:56:17.360 that that doesn't work. So that's my But it's complicated. 4826 04:56:17.400 --> 04:56:19.880 Then I'm not a military guy. But again I I don't. 4827 04:56:20.240 --> 04:56:24.959 I don't think what I'm suggesting can be h disputed 4828 04:56:26.200 --> 04:56:28.520 in any kind of absolute sense. But yeah, that that's 4829 04:56:28.599 --> 04:56:31.360 that's just that's my take on it. At UH got 4830 04:56:31.439 --> 04:56:31.799 to bed a. 4831 04:56:31.799 --> 04:56:35.799 Glance or in short, rather what one thing you said 4832 04:56:35.799 --> 04:56:41.159 early on about the million and a half basically Soviets 4833 04:56:41.799 --> 04:56:46.959 pouring into West Germany. Yeah, those who hate Germany and 4834 04:56:47.119 --> 04:56:50.919 want to destroy her have never stopped that attack, have 4835 04:56:51.080 --> 04:56:55.720 they of just pouring foreigners into there? Too? 4836 04:56:58.159 --> 04:57:01.479 No? I don't. I And that's what's key is that 4837 04:57:02.000 --> 04:57:05.720 the and that was I mean, that was the Hokey's 4838 04:57:05.720 --> 04:57:08.080 whole point about the Cold War, Okay, Yaqui's whole point 4839 04:57:08.159 --> 04:57:11.279 was that, Look, yeah, East Germany is is a horrible regime. 4840 04:57:12.639 --> 04:57:16.040 In some ways, it's you know, uh, you know, in 4841 04:57:16.119 --> 04:57:19.360 some ways it's it's it's literally dystopian. But it's not 4842 04:57:19.479 --> 04:57:22.200 going to be here forever. And it's not it's not 4843 04:57:22.360 --> 04:57:25.119 destroying you know, the cultural and and and like racial 4844 04:57:25.240 --> 04:57:28.400 foundation of the country. You know, like you can weather 4845 04:57:28.520 --> 04:57:31.799 that storm, like you can't whether the storm of you know, 4846 04:57:32.240 --> 04:57:35.959 the US NATO socially engineering Germany out of existence. I mean, 4847 04:57:36.000 --> 04:57:37.959 that's what we're seeing to the you know, and that's 4848 04:57:38.000 --> 04:57:41.400 what I constantly, like I constantly brush up against people, 4849 04:57:42.799 --> 04:57:44.639 you know, not just online, but I mean that this 4850 04:57:44.799 --> 04:57:47.919 happens to me in person when I'm in at venues 4851 04:57:47.919 --> 04:57:49.959 where you know, the issue is being discussed. Like I 4852 04:57:50.000 --> 04:57:53.080 think I'm like defending Stalinism or something like I'm not okay, 4853 04:57:53.159 --> 04:57:54.919 but that's not the point, you know, Like I don't 4854 04:57:54.919 --> 04:57:56.959 see how this can be disputed anymore. Okay. It's like 4855 04:57:57.080 --> 04:58:03.360 you think, uh, you think you know, I mean, it's like, 4856 04:58:03.400 --> 04:58:06.560 how how can anybody, how can anybody dispute that? You know, 4857 04:58:06.799 --> 04:58:09.759 I mean it well, I mean it's just like the 4858 04:58:10.000 --> 04:58:13.040 this this state, I mean that that that's that's the 4859 04:58:13.759 --> 04:58:15.799 you know, Yaqui was a was a genius because he 4860 04:58:15.919 --> 04:58:17.639 was you know he was he was writing about this 4861 04:58:17.799 --> 04:58:19.799 and night and you know in nineteen fifty eight, fifty 4862 04:58:19.919 --> 04:58:22.279 nine or whatever, like even before you know, he wasn't. 4863 04:58:22.319 --> 04:58:24.599 He wasn't some guy like me, like you know, looking 4864 04:58:24.759 --> 04:58:27.159 at history in the interview mirror, you know, I mean, 4865 04:58:27.240 --> 04:58:29.080 but look at I mean, look at look look at 4866 04:58:29.080 --> 04:58:31.759 the former East Block. Okay, yeah, those states have terrible 4867 04:58:31.840 --> 04:58:34.720 problems today, but they don't have the problems of some 4868 04:58:35.520 --> 04:58:38.919 you know, some some crazy of some crazy Zionists or 4869 04:58:39.040 --> 04:58:43.240 uh you know, elite or or or these are these 4870 04:58:43.319 --> 04:58:45.880 kinds of DeVos types, you know, declaring that you know, 4871 04:58:46.080 --> 04:58:49.400 they would you know they you know, when we need 4872 04:58:49.439 --> 04:58:52.680 to import as many you know, thritable populations as possible 4873 04:58:52.759 --> 04:58:54.479 because you know, this this this country is you know 4874 04:58:54.720 --> 04:58:57.319 too orthodox or too Catholic, or you know, or too 4875 04:58:57.400 --> 04:59:00.159 white or too German. I mean that that's that that's 4876 04:59:00.159 --> 04:59:03.240 a that's an existential problem that can't be overcome. Okay, 4877 04:59:03.360 --> 04:59:05.799 Like if you've got fucked up government in Romania or Croatia, 4878 04:59:06.200 --> 04:59:08.159 it's like, well, yeah, okay, governments that part of the 4879 04:59:08.159 --> 04:59:11.040 world where is fucked up. It's different than having, you know, 4880 04:59:11.799 --> 04:59:15.360 a social engineering regime with endless resources that's trying to 4881 04:59:15.439 --> 04:59:18.119 annihilate you as as a culture and as a people. 4882 04:59:18.720 --> 04:59:21.040 You know, like one you can handle, the other you can't. 4883 04:59:21.400 --> 04:59:23.000 I mean, but I mean, I guess that's a topic 4884 04:59:23.040 --> 04:59:28.360 for another UH episode or series entirely. But yeah, I mean, 4885 04:59:28.439 --> 04:59:33.319 that's that's the issue with the Cold War. Nobody's I mean, 4886 04:59:33.360 --> 04:59:35.119 maybe maybe there's some people claim that, you know, the 4887 04:59:35.799 --> 04:59:39.840 the the East Bloc regimes were good regimes. I mean, 4888 04:59:39.919 --> 04:59:43.840 I'm sure you can find some Marxist fossil at some 4889 04:59:44.040 --> 04:59:46.799 college saying that. I'm certainly not saying that. But that's 4890 04:59:46.799 --> 04:59:51.000 not the point. You know, you got to look at 4891 04:59:51.000 --> 04:59:52.400 these outcomes. 4892 04:59:53.000 --> 04:59:57.720 Yeah, there's nuance there when you yeah, yeah, yeah, the least, Yeah, 4893 04:59:57.919 --> 05:00:00.119 when you read, when you read Jacky, especially when you 4894 05:00:00.159 --> 05:00:04.479 read The Enemy of Europe, You're you're experiencing a nuance. 4895 05:00:06.799 --> 05:00:10.119 No, exactly. And it's also, let's two bear in mind, 4896 05:00:10.200 --> 05:00:12.799 like the Cold War by design wasn't supposed to happen. 4897 05:00:12.840 --> 05:00:14.400 I mean, whether it's like okay, even if you're this 4898 05:00:14.560 --> 05:00:17.479 art kind of like anti communist and everything, it's like, well, okay, 4899 05:00:19.240 --> 05:00:21.639 you know that the the Cold War happened basically because 4900 05:00:21.639 --> 05:00:25.599 the concord fell apart between Washington and Moscow. You know, 4901 05:00:25.759 --> 05:00:31.080 the idea was, you know, everybody in Washington who you 4902 05:00:31.279 --> 05:00:34.840 had any meaningful authority, was perfectly okay with you know, 4903 05:00:35.200 --> 05:00:39.080 essentially half half the planet being uh, you know, being 4904 05:00:39.200 --> 05:00:41.959 under the being under the heel of Stalinism. So it's 4905 05:00:42.360 --> 05:00:45.439 it's either here or there, you know, like whether somebody 4906 05:00:45.560 --> 05:00:49.759 like me and in the historical records defending or condemning 4907 05:00:49.840 --> 05:00:53.279 that system. I mean, you know, it's like the fix 4908 05:00:53.439 --> 05:00:56.680 was in like by America. Like it's these regimes didn't 4909 05:00:56.680 --> 05:01:02.200 emerge out of nowhere and were not for America, the 4910 05:01:02.360 --> 05:01:05.680 uh you know, communism would have u would have uh 4911 05:01:06.880 --> 05:01:08.959 what would have been annihilated from this planet and in 4912 05:01:09.200 --> 05:01:13.439 nineteen forty one. But the but yeah, yeah, exactly. 4913 05:01:14.400 --> 05:01:18.439 That's a great way to end it. Uh, give your plugs, 4914 05:01:18.479 --> 05:01:19.080 we get out of here. 4915 05:01:20.240 --> 05:01:23.639 Yeah, for sure, man at uh I you can find 4916 05:01:23.720 --> 05:01:26.759 the podcast and some of my long form on the substack. 4917 05:01:26.880 --> 05:01:30.759 It's uh real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. 4918 05:01:31.159 --> 05:01:35.680 And once again, forgive my uh absence from producing fresh 4919 05:01:35.919 --> 05:01:39.200 stuff the last couple of weeks. Uh, but I'm I'm 4920 05:01:39.279 --> 05:01:42.279 back in the saddle. I promise, Uh, we'll be back 4921 05:01:42.279 --> 05:01:45.720 to the regular kind of bi weekly schedule. You can 4922 05:01:45.799 --> 05:01:50.919 find me on Twitter at Triskellian Jahad. The T is 4923 05:01:51.000 --> 05:01:57.560 the number seven. It's one word otherwise. We're gonna launch 4924 05:01:57.639 --> 05:02:01.759 the YouTube channel, uh January first. I know that that's 4925 05:02:01.799 --> 05:02:06.040 been one and coming. I decided to push it back 4926 05:02:06.080 --> 05:02:09.000 to January a few weeks back because I want to 4927 05:02:09.080 --> 05:02:12.319 do it right and I've got a great production team 4928 05:02:12.400 --> 05:02:14.720 helping me, which is what I needed because I'm kind 4929 05:02:14.759 --> 05:02:20.840 of a tech retard and at long last Imperium Press 4930 05:02:20.880 --> 05:02:24.959 and I found a printer for steel Storm two, so 4931 05:02:25.080 --> 05:02:27.880 that is going to drop in January, and that's what 4932 05:02:28.000 --> 05:02:28.319 I got. 4933 05:02:29.080 --> 05:02:31.520 Awesome. Thank you, Thomas. Till the next time. I can't 4934 05:02:31.520 --> 05:02:31.720 wait