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Hi, 7 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.679 this is Carl Franklin. 8 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:25.480 And this is Richard Campbell. 9 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:30.000 We've got two special shows coming up soon, episode nineteen 10 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:32.039 ninety nine and two thousand. 11 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:35.079 For episode nineteen ninety nine, we're collecting people's y two 12 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:37.560 k stories what did you do to help the Y 13 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:39.719 two k event not actually happen? 14 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.960 And for episode two thousand, we're going to be sharing 15 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.479 stories about how dot net shaped your career. 16 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.719 We have a special page at dot netroocks dot com 17 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.159 slash voxpop where you can record messages for us that 18 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:54.000 we can play on these special episodes. 19 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:56.479 So tell us what you did for Y two k 20 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.039 and what dot net means to you, and of course 21 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.159 how long you've been listening to dot NetRocks. 22 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:04.799 So go to dot netroocks dot com slash voxpop now 23 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:07.079 and leave us a message before the thought of operates 24 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:09.200 like whiskey left in a glass overnight. 25 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:09.640 Do it? 26 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.280 Hey, welcome back to dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. 27 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:26.799 And I'm Richard Campbell. 28 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:29.400 Richard, do you realize we've been doing this show for 29 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:32.280 almost two thousand episodes? 30 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.319 Getting there? Yeah, two thousand is approaching. 31 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.959 And you know you probably just heard the bumper where 32 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:41.840 we're going to be at the MVP summit or right 33 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:45.640 before at party with Palermo doing our two thousandth show, 34 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:48.519 and we ask people to call in with our voxpop. 35 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.599 Go to dot nerocks dot com and look for voxpop 36 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.400 at the menu or just slash vox pop. We only 37 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:58.200 have three messages. Come on, people, come on, and they're 38 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.920 from old friends, right, you know, but that's not what 39 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:03.719 we want. We want to show, so come on, give 40 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:07.680 us some anyway, Let's start with what happened in nineteen 41 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.520 ninety three, and Mike and Matt you can join in 42 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:17.479 if you want to. Bill Clinton was inaugurated, The World 43 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:19.680 Trade Center was bombed for the first time. 44 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.400 Yeah, that was that was the truck bomb in the underground. 45 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.199 Yeah, didn't really do anything, So make a mess. 46 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.840 Blue three floors out of the base Bend. Well, a 47 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.719 lot didn't bring the building down. It's only because eight 48 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:35.719 years later what you know that you would think of 49 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:37.000 it was huge at the time. 50 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.599 You're right, you're right about that. The Branch Davidians were 51 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:46.280 invaded in Waco, Texas. That wasn't bad. Major global events 52 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.520 included the Storm of the Century blizzard, and from what 53 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:52.400 I'm hearing, that was nothing compared to what we just 54 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:53.800 went through in the northeast. 55 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.199 No, that storm killed a lot of people, Like I 56 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.120 hope there's not a lot of fatalities out right now. 57 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:00.919 You guy's kind of what you're doing up there when 58 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:02.240 it comes to bad winter storms. 59 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:10.000 Yeah, yep. Let's see, the Storm of the Century hit 60 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:14.000 the East coast in March, massive flood effected the midwest. 61 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:20.280 Czechoslovakia peacefully split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia on 62 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.400 January first, and the Brundian Civil War began. 63 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.680 Yeah, as opposed to what was happening south of there 64 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.759 in the former Yugoslavia where everybody was killing everybody. 65 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:34.319 It was terrible. Yeah, So what happened in science and space, Richard. 66 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:37.120 Well, I'd also throw in in June of nineteen ninety 67 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.319 three was when Kim Campbell became the Prime Minister of Canada, 68 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.960 first time a female prime minister in Canada, although admittedly 69 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:48.639 she was put in place after Brian mulroney resigned, so 70 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:51.280 she was really just sort of interim from June until 71 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:55.919 the federal elections in December when Jean Kreshen will be elected. Yeah. 72 00:03:55.960 --> 00:04:00.560 Starting on the space side, so we have seven shot missions. 73 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.199 Most are not particularly interesting, three Space Lab missions, a 74 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:09.080 few satellite launches. But in December the first hubble repair mission, 75 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:14.199 so arguably the most complex Space Shuttle mission ever. I 76 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.639 had a opportunity to actually have dinner once with Story 77 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:20.959 Muskrave who helped architect that mission. The guy just astonishing, person, Wow, 78 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:23.399 this is done out of the Shuttle endeavor. Remember hubble 79 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:27.519 Ed launched in nineteen ninety and then after checkout they 80 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:31.240 realized the mirror had been miss ground and so. 81 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:35.720 Didn't they fix it with software rather than attempt to 82 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:38.079 do some process to the mirror itself. 83 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.839 Now they absolutely put in new optics as well as 84 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:45.319 software upgrades. They also replaced all the gyros and upgraded 85 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.000 a bunch of instruments and changed out the solar panels. 86 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:50.240 It had already been up for three years at this point, 87 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:52.439 so it was sort of an opportunity. And this is 88 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.120 the first time ever to do this kind of repair. 89 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.399 The Shuttle had been designed to retrieve satellite to prepare 90 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:02.040 them and relaunch them, and it had done a bunch 91 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.720 of that, but most of them were fairly straightforward. This 92 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:08.560 was a crazy repair and you and I saw the 93 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.079 test articles for the optical correction when we went to 94 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.600 the Goddard Space Center to see the James Web, if 95 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:19.879 you recall. So, yeah, a very complex mission, but ultimately successful. 96 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:21.920 Of course they didn't know at the time. You know, 97 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.800 they figured all this stuff out, but then you have 98 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.199 to put it all together, relaunch, and then it takes 99 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:30.360 months to actually complete the testing to resolve that. Also, 100 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:34.279 in human spaceflight T sixteen from now, the Russian Federation 101 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.480 flies to Mirror and put some new satellites up, put 102 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.680 some new astronauts or cosmonauts up on the Mare space station. 103 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:47.279 The Shuttle Mirror relationship is in negotiations, it hasn't started yet. Well, 104 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:50.959 we'll talk about that in future shows. And one more 105 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:53.959 thing on the space side, which I talked about last show, 106 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:55.480 but let's go a little bit of detail on it, 107 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.759 which was Mars Observer. So Mars Observer was launched on 108 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.720 Titan three in nineteen ninety two. That's what we talked 109 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:02.959 about the last show. It originally was supposed to be 110 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:05.639 launched by a shuttle, along with many other kinds of satellites, 111 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:08.279 but the Challenger disaster had created a huge number of 112 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:12.160 delays when they started prioritizing satellites. There were satellites that 113 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:15.439 really could only be launched by a shuttle like Galileo, 114 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.319 Magellan and the Ulysses, so they got priority. So there 115 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.480 was a rethink around Mars Observer, and it was a 116 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.480 big satellite. This was an over a one ton orbiter 117 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:27.000 based on a bus that was really meant to be 118 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.120 around Earth or they're going to fly it to Mars. 119 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:31.879 So instead they launched on a Titan three, in fact, 120 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.120 the last Titan three, and then three days before it 121 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.279 was supposed to start its burn to go into orbit 122 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:41.040 around Mars, during the checkout sequence where they were pressurizing 123 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:42.839 the fuel system and so forth to get ready to 124 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:46.959 do that, something went wrong and they abruptly lost contact 125 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:51.120 with Observer. The guess is, and it's a pretty good guess. 126 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:55.560 The fuel system, which wasn't designed to be turned off 127 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:59.839 for six months during the cruise phase, the seals had 128 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.680 froze and so as they repressurize system, it leaked hypergolics 129 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:06.720 into the chassis, which then would combine and burst out 130 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.240 in any direction they could so suddenly spun the satellite 131 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.240 out of control and so lost it. Now being a 132 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.160 large satellite, it had a lot of instruments on it, 133 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.000 and there were test articles of these same instruments. So 134 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:22.879 over the intervening years after the loss of Observer, all 135 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:25.879 of those instruments were ultimately flown. So five of the 136 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:29.079 eight were flown as a Global surveyor. In nineteen ninety six, 137 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:32.480 or literally the next opportunity to fly, they took five 138 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.199 of those instruments on a smaller spacecraft that would last 139 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.839 for ten years. The gamma y spectrometer w we'ld end 140 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:39.519 up on Mars Odyssey we had flew in two thousand 141 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.160 and one, and then the infrared radiometer flies on reconnaissance 142 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:45.519 Order in two thousand and five. So ultimately they got 143 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:50.519 all the same science, just much later, and really since then, 144 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:58.399 other than the perseverance and curiosity the big landers, we've 145 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:02.199 never flown anything that big to Mars. Again, it's just 146 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.959 it's tough to fly big vehicles that far, and you 147 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:06.639 have to do very specific designs. 148 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:11.759 I remember they really changed their approach to those rovers, 149 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.959 you know, wrapping them in balloons, that kind of you know, 150 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.279 all kind of low tech solutions for getting them there. 151 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:23.079 You know, the original Viking missions were stunningly expensive. Right 152 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:26.000 to land a large vehicle on Mars where it has 153 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:29.199 just enough atmosphere that you can't just maneuver down, but 154 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.560 not enough atmosphere to really slow you down, it's a 155 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:36.360 it's a tough balance. And so to reduce costs, they 156 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:41.840 use they said, the inflatable approach, so hypersonic parachute to 157 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.000 do the initial breaking any heat shield. And then this 158 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:47.679 set of balloons allow you to bounce to landing. But 159 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:49.440 that will only handle like one hundred kilos. 160 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:51.600 And we'll talk about that more in a couple of months, right. 161 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:53.320 Yeah, when we get we get to those missions. But 162 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.320 and then ultimately the largest system we have rush now, 163 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.159 which was for those two big rovers which are our 164 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.039 e metric ton, is what they call the sky hook system, 165 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.600 which is insanely complicated, but it's a precise landing system 166 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:08.759 for more than a ton on the Mars, and it's 167 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:09.440 the best we've got. 168 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.919 Mike is nodding. Do you remember that all that stuff? 169 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:14.159 No, I'm just the sky hoof. 170 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.559 I've been watching YouTube videos when the wie's away. I 171 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:20.279 get to watch really nerdy things and watching about how 172 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.639 we land stuff on Mars, and I find all of 173 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:23.759 that very fascinating. 174 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.559 Precision landing is bloody hard because you don't know how 175 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:28.200 much atmosphere you're going to hit, so you don't know 176 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.960 how much you're going to slow down, and so there's 177 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:33.559 a bunch of moments you have to decide to do 178 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.840 some maneuvering to get where you're planning to go. 179 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:38.080 Yeah, and it's not like you can just tweak like 180 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:39.039 in real time. 181 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.879 A message from Earth to Mars to adjust courses got 182 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:45.200 to be thought about ahead of time. 183 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:49.440 Yeah. The entire event of entering the atmosphere and landing 184 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.279 happens before the first signal arrives at Earth's incredible, right, 185 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:57.159 It's seven minutes from arbitilator face to landing, and it's 186 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:58.720 eleven minutes to transmit data. 187 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.519 One way about that the next time you don't get 188 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:03.080 a text answer right away. 189 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:08.080 Yeah, has to go to space. But now think about this, 190 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.679 knowing that they were still able to take pictures of 191 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:17.519 the re entry and ultimate landing of Perseverance with the 192 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:22.120 Odyssey orbiter purely by timing, to say, basically, time that 193 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.240 Odyssey was in the right place to take pictures in 194 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.639 the right location downward and gut shots of the parachute 195 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:28.799 and the heat shield ejection. 196 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:29.960 Like, that's cool. 197 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.240 All but all done. All of it had happened before 198 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.360 we knew any of it. It's all maths just had 199 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:37.480 to do to maths. Yeah, okay, should we talk about 200 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:39.639 computing because an I three was a very good year 201 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.039 for computing, Yes, at least for the Internet side, So 202 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:47.840 cern that's our friend. Tim Berners Lee releases the source 203 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:50.480 code for the first web server, the one that ran 204 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.840 on the next, which makes it a whole lot easier 205 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:54.840 to build web service because as of the beginning of 206 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:57.559 the year in nineteen ninety three, there's an estimate exactly 207 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:01.320 fifty web servers in the whole world. Don't worry, but it. 208 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.000 Was it was written in a different language, though it 209 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:03.440 wasn't like C. 210 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.399 It was written Yeah, I was written an objective C 211 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:09.039 because that was the language of the next right, that's. 212 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:12.440 Job objective cy, so you had to figure that out first. 213 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:18.519 But meantime, there are other tools on the Internet to 214 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:20.720 use the Internet. Right this is before the Web, and 215 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:22.720 the most one of the most profita onest one called Gopher, 216 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:25.799 written by a group at the University of Minnesota, and 217 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.039 literally it was for you go for info, and it 218 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.559 was widely used by academics in the universities. It was 219 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:33.679 also used by the Library of Congress, like it was 220 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.960 the way at the time. I remember surfing Gopher, however, 221 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:39.519 and they and they were talking about incorporating features that 222 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.200 were webbish, like hyperlinking and so forth. And then I 223 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:44.559 decided it was getting popular enough that they wanted to 224 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.200 charge for a server for it, and oddly enough, nobody 225 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.600 wanted to pay, and so everybody just switched switched to 226 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.159 web technologies. Which is useful because over in the University 227 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.799 of Illinois, Urbana Champlaine, they are just releasing a browser 228 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.000 called Mosaic. This is also the year that Windsock comes 229 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:06.080 out for Windows. So that's remember that Windows at this 230 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:09.559 time does not use TCPIP by default. That uses net buoy, 231 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:11.679 and so if you want to get on the Internet. 232 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.039 You need to use CCPP, so you use windsof. 233 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:15.519 There are all sorts of ads in the back of 234 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:19.600 you know, PC Week and all those magazines for TCPIP libraries. 235 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:23.840 I remember at that time because there wasn't anything in Windows. 236 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:28.879 And O'Reilly has a web page up already and they 237 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.399 are the first to sell ads on it. In nineteen 238 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:37.720 ninety three. Wow, yeah, yeah, other computing stuff besides windsock, 239 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:39.159 we have a good operating system year. This is the 240 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.440 year that free bsd gets released. Microsoft puts out m 241 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.799 STAS six NT three one, the original NT without a Guy, 242 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.799 and Visual Basic three. One of the best proof points 243 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:53.759 that the third versions of things made by Microsoft are 244 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:58.240 the best ones. Yes, the first Intel Pentium ships, they 245 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.240 didn't want to call it the five eighty six because 246 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.759 they've been doing the two eighty six, three eighty six, 247 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.320 forty six things. They pent as in five and it's 248 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.039 a whole three million transistors and three hundred megahurts. 249 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.399 Had a hard time keeping that thing cool, didn't they. 250 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.279 The later pen the first Gigaherts pendiums are the ones 251 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:14.440 that were really tough to cool. 252 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.440 But wasn't that the thing that sort of triggered the 253 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:23.320 more process or more CPUs on a core, more cores 254 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:24.000 on a CPU. 255 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.759 We're a few years away from that, yet this is 256 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.360 the beginning of that problem that as you research of density, 257 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.360 the temperature gets up too high, so and they can't 258 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:35.720 keep the cycle rates increasingly. We're three hundred mega hurts. 259 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.360 We're going to keep running up over at gigahertz and 260 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:41.399 so forth. We're going to peek around three or four, 261 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:43.919 and then we're going to back off because it's just 262 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:47.480 so much electron erosion and problems. And now now we're 263 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.039 starting to creep up again because new designs are working better. Yeah, 264 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.080 a couple of last things and we'll move on. Two 265 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:57.240 important games in nineteen ninety three. One of them is 266 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:03.919 missed by broder Bond first real multi media game, So 267 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:08.080 am be in such experiential Yeah, I loved it, really 268 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.120 set the class and it is a you know, not 269 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:11.559 just gave me the year, but al eamn, a game 270 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.279 of the decade or more. And the story was it 271 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.639 was all about the story, right totally. It was like 272 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.960 in this slow discovery playing a movie. No narration, Yeah right, 273 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:21.840 you just had to figure it out. It was great. 274 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:25.200 And the other game for mid software Doom. Yeah, first 275 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:27.440 person Shooter. Yep. And that's what I got, all right. 276 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.120 Before I move on to Better Know Framework, let's just 277 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:34.600 quickly go over the top ten selling albums worldwide nineteen 278 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:39.080 ninety three. The hits the B sides by Prince Key 279 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:44.240 tracks are seven and Cream if you remember that one. Yeah, 280 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.559 the chronic by Doctor Dre Nutting, but a g thang 281 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:51.279 Let Me Ride. We talked about that last show because 282 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:55.519 it's still going on. Eric Clapton Unplugged is still there. 283 00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:01.360 Number eight, Tears in Heaven and Laila Versus Pearl Jam, 284 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:07.039 Number seven, Daughter Go and Animal The big hits there 285 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.960 Janet Jackson estimated sales fourteen plus million. That's the Way 286 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:17.960 Love Goes If and Again, ten Summoners Tales by Sting, 287 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:21.720 If I ever Lose my faith in You, Fields of 288 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:26.000 Gold in Shape of My Heart, Great songs Aerosmith puts 289 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:29.679 Out Get a Grip Number four estimated sales twenty plus million. 290 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.919 Tunes like Living on the Edge, Crying Crazy and Amazing 291 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:39.399 Number three, Bat Out of Hell two Back into Hell 292 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.200 by meat Loaf. I do anything for love, but I 293 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:47.080 won't do that. You had such a great sense of humor, 294 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.799 and then rock and roll dreams come through. Number two 295 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:54.840 The Bodyguard. We talked about that, Whitney Houston. I Will 296 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.399 Always Love You, I Have Nothing and I'm every Woman. 297 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:04.000 Number two in nineteen ninety one, forty five plus million sold, 298 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:08.480 and the number one selling is Music Box by Mariah 299 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:12.759 Carey twenty eight to thirty two million, Dream Lover, Hero, 300 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.399 Without You and Anytime You Need a Friend. And that's 301 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.120 it for our nineteen ninety three review. I guess now 302 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:24.039 it's time for better, no framework, awesome. 303 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:31.000 It's. 304 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:31.879 A man. 305 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:32.279 What do you got? 306 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:32.600 Well? 307 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.320 Last week I talked about t unit. 308 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.720 Yes, remember yep, Simon Krapp. 309 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.240 Well, no, he didn't write it, He just brought it 310 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.639 to our attention. And then he went on to write 311 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:46.360 a tool called t unit migrator. Oh, that's a dot 312 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.600 net tool that migrates test projects from MS test and 313 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.720 unit x unit and x unit v three to t 314 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.120 unit because he really loves t unit. Well, this is 315 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:02.559 who wouldn't love t unit. This is the classic developer 316 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:05.640 open source project. You need it for yourself and you 317 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:07.799 think other people would benefit from it, so you make 318 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.119 a tool and happily share it. Yeah, and that's what 319 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.240 it is, it's cool and of course t unit is 320 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.359 a modern testing framework for dot net that uses source 321 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:21.920 generated tests in parallel execution, native AOT support and it's 322 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.640 all good stuff and it's the new hotness and unit 323 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:29.039 testing and that's it. Richard, who's talking to us. 324 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:31.839 Today grabbing comment off a show seventeen eighty five which 325 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.480 you did back in twenty two talking to Dan Walmsley 326 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.160 about Avalonia one point zero because I know we're going 327 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.480 to get a little chance to revisit Avalonia and we 328 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:42.400 have comment on the show from Aaron Stalisbury this a 329 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:44.359 few years ago where he says I've been using Avalonia 330 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:47.759 for desktop and it's been a pleasure. It's one project 331 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.200 and everything just works. It might help people to know 332 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:54.839 that they getthub repo Avalodia community slash awesome. Avalonia curates 333 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:58.640 a great collection of add ons. I love the air 334 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:02.079 awesome lists. Yeah, thanks for your info. Hope it helps people, 335 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.200 though committedly it's a few years old. And a copy 336 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:05.440 of music codey is on its way to you, and 337 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:06.920 if you'd like a copy of music Cobey, I write 338 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.759 a comment on the website at dot at rocks dot 339 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:10.799 com or on the Facebook's publish every show there, Andy 340 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.480 comment there, I'll read it on the show was at 341 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:13.880 your copy of music O Music. 342 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.440 To Code by Still Going Strong twenty two tracks, twenty 343 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:19.680 five minutes each designed to keep you in a state 344 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.960 of flow while you're writing code. You can get it 345 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.680 at music toocode by dot Net. All right, so I 346 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:31.279 guess it's time, after this horribly long introduction to introduce 347 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.000 Mike James and Matt Lacy. Mike is the CEO of 348 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.680 Avalonia UI. He has spent his entire career focused on 349 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:43.920 crossplat development, starting as a developer building with QT before 350 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.240 joining Zamorin and subsequently Microsoft. He has dedicated his career 351 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.000 to enabling developers to build apps for every platform. He's 352 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.559 now focused on continuing the mission with Avalonia UI. And 353 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.839 Matt Lacy is a software developer at Avalonia, building software 354 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.720 since the late nineties and has worked on more platforms 355 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.240 and in more languages than he can remember over the years. 356 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.799 I don't know, does say something about your memory or 357 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:11.359 about the number of platforms. 358 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:12.640 I'm going to say both. 359 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:17.680 Over the years, he's created systems that have processed hundreds 360 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.519 of millions of dollars in transactions and apps that have 361 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:24.759 been installed more than half a billion times today. His 362 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:29.000 focus is on helping other developers build software that generally 363 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:34.400 genuinely delivers value to the people who use it. He's 364 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.359 also an author and has been a Microsoft MVP since 365 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:41.400 twenty fifteen. Welcome guys. Hey, I guess we're going to 366 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.519 start with the state of Avalonia. We've talked to death 367 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.039 about what it is, and if you don't know what 368 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.559 it is, just go do that on your own time. 369 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.599 We know what it is. What's going on with Abolonia, Well. 370 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.480 There's so much going on with Ablonia. It feels like 371 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.599 more has happened in the last twelve months than the 372 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:05.960 last twelve years. We've got the open source which was 373 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:13.319 created in twenty thirteen. That's been like a slow adoption 374 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.680 over those initial years, and then the snowball is just 375 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:22.839 picking up speed, and so we've seen just a huge 376 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.000 amount of growth from the community just picking it up. 377 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:28.279 It's all. 378 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.319 People just recommending it to each other, which is lovely. 379 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.279 We don't have any sales or marketing. It's all just 380 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:37.480 natural word of mouth. 381 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:39.000 Good time. 382 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.480 Yeah, and then like the team is now seventeen people, 383 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:45.480 so we've got a load of folks that's working on 384 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:51.920 building this out to try and deliver on the goal 385 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.519 of creating the best UI framework for donnet. So, yeah, 386 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.440 there's just a ton of things that have been happening. 387 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:00.359 It's difficult to know where to even begin. 388 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:02.319 Matt, you want to throw in your two cents. It 389 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.319 looks like you're smiling there, you've got an idea of 390 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.799 how to begin. 391 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:11.000 No, I'm smiling because I recognizing the size of the topic. Yeah, okay, Yeah, 392 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.079 So I joined the company at the end of last 393 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.119 year having been well aware of them for a long 394 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.720 time and having seen that being one of a number 395 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.440 of companies and projects in the same sort of cross 396 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.960 platform dot net space. And when I joined, what really 397 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:31.319 surprised me was the number of people who are using it. 398 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:31.720 It's this. 399 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:35.880 People have gone out and found it and fallen in 400 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.839 love with it and just been using it and building 401 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.920