Speaker 1: Broadcasting from Studio A Here at proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs.
Speaker 1: It's time for the Gardening Simplified Podcast, YouTube and radio
Speaker 1: show with Stacy Hervilla, me Rick Weist, and our engineer
Speaker 1: and producer Adrianna Robinson. Oh deer, the buck stops here.
Speaker 1: That's right. We want to talk about deer today, and
Speaker 1: I think you want to too, because few creatures can
Speaker 1: look more harmless while doing more destruction than the urban deer.
Speaker 1: They spread disease, they run in front of cars, causing crashes.
Speaker 1: They devour farm fields and expensive landscapes. I guess in
Speaker 1: brief to say they find your roses dear delicious, because
Speaker 1: they certainly do. They can eat plants down to a
Speaker 1: nub in short order. But to be fair, humans have
Speaker 1: created the ideal conditions for deer to survive and reduce
Speaker 1: well basically to problematic levels, and we see higher survival
Speaker 1: rates in deer that live in urban settings. And Stacy
Speaker 1: for context, resource managers years ago were concerned about overpopulation
Speaker 1: when the herd was much smaller.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's saying something because it's big now, you know.
Speaker 2: I do want to say to any listener who's like,
Speaker 2: I don't have deer. I'm gonna go listen to something else.
Speaker 2: Just because you don't have deer now doesn't mean you
Speaker 2: won't have deer because of the way that things are
Speaker 2: going right now with so much development, especially right now,
Speaker 2: you know, the areas that they have to live in
Speaker 2: are becoming increasingly smaller. And the fact is, much like
Speaker 2: raccoons or apossum, they're just adaptable. They are able to
Speaker 2: adapt to our environment, the way we live, the way
Speaker 2: that we plant around our homes, all of that. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's really just a matter of time till pretty much everybody.
Speaker 2: I live in the middle of a city. I didn't
Speaker 2: think I would ever have deer, and I have a
Speaker 2: terrible deer problem.
Speaker 1: That's exactly the problem. And in a county that adjoins
Speaker 1: the counties that Stacey and I live in here in Michigan,
Speaker 1: Kent County. I went to a meeting the other day
Speaker 1: the Kent County Deer Management Coalition. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: they've enlisted the support and help of Grand Valley State University.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk to a representative in segment four today
Speaker 1: to see what we can learn. But the number of
Speaker 1: road killed deer pickups in that county and twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four exceeded the number of hunter harvested deer. Wow, twenty
Speaker 1: six percent of vehicle crashes are deer related in that county.
Speaker 1: And last year in that county, I was standing there
Speaker 1: at the meeting talking to someone from public Works. He
Speaker 1: said that their department last year picked up one hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty tons of deer carcasses. Yeah, that's unreal when
Speaker 1: you consider that the adult male buck weighs between one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty one hundred and sixty pounds, a female
Speaker 1: maybe eighty to one hundred and twenty pounds, one hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty tons. You do the math. Now, the deer
Speaker 1: boom factors, I guess essentially we have to say, Stacey,
Speaker 1: that they don't have the large predators they had years ago,
Speaker 1: and reintroducing them into the landscape doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2: No, And I mean fortunately, coyotes are definitely on the rise.
Speaker 2: They certainly cited frequently out here in West Michigan because
Speaker 2: they also have a similar adaptability in ways that they
Speaker 2: can adapt to, you know, human surroundings. One coyote can
Speaker 2: only do so much switch when it comes to a
Speaker 2: giant deer. So we can't count on them. And of course,
Speaker 2: you know, people if you try to say to people, well,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll encourage coyotes to try to manage a
Speaker 2: deer problem, while people are going to then freak out
Speaker 2: about having coyotes around. So we're really in a rough situation.
Speaker 2: And I do want to say, you know, I have
Speaker 2: seen the arguments on local Facebook groups, and I have
Speaker 2: seen people say, literally word for word, there is no
Speaker 2: flower in the world worth a deer's life, right, And
Speaker 2: the fact is, this isn't just about the fact that
Speaker 2: we love gardening, and it's not just about the fact
Speaker 2: that gardeners should grow whatever they want without any repercussions.
Speaker 2: That's not the point at all. But a lot of
Speaker 2: us like myself, who are gardening for pollinators, you know,
Speaker 2: if a deer comes along and eats all the flowers,
Speaker 2: well there goes your potential for pollinators and all of
Speaker 2: those other reasons that you're gardening for birds, for a wildlife.
Speaker 2: And of course deer are wildlife, but they have an
Speaker 2: outsized role in the damage that they cause to our landscapes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it's a controversial subject because hunters basically
Speaker 1: remain as the check on deer population growth. But there
Speaker 1: are today less hunters than there used to be, and
Speaker 1: it's just a fact.
Speaker 2: And you know where people hunt, because of course there aren't.
Speaker 2: People needs to be safe enough for them to fire
Speaker 2: a shotgun or a bow an arrow. Are not where
Speaker 2: the deer problems are. You know, I live where I live,
Speaker 2: they don't allow guns to be fired, So there is
Speaker 2: no hunting. Even if everyone, even if every qualified hunter
Speaker 2: around here went deer hunting, it still wouldn't take care
Speaker 2: of the urban deer population.
Speaker 1: Yeah, suburban sprawl. I mean, it doesn't make sense to
Speaker 1: have a hunter shoot a deer and then chase it
Speaker 1: across ten property lines and have it expire in your
Speaker 1: backyard while you're back there having a margarita and eating
Speaker 1: chocolate bondbonds.
Speaker 2: Well, it's better than TV.
Speaker 1: Now. Of course. With this study here in the county
Speaker 1: that adjoins ours, they also found that when they survey
Speaker 1: the general public, there are some townships where the number
Speaker 1: of people who enjoy watching and feeding deer exceed those
Speaker 1: who do not like the deer. There are other counties
Speaker 1: where they simply are tired of the deer problem. And
Speaker 1: so you have people who represent the deer, and then
Speaker 1: you have people who represent the plants. And that's why
Speaker 1: coalitions like this exist, because we got to find a
Speaker 1: way to get along together, you know.
Speaker 2: And out here in Michigan, we fortunately do not yet
Speaker 2: have a huge issue with tickborne illness and specifically lime disease,
Speaker 2: which requires a deer to complete its life cycle. But
Speaker 2: when I lived in New York, lime disease, of course
Speaker 2: is named for lime Connecticut, where it was first identified,
Speaker 2: and all around the metro New York area, the deer
Speaker 2: pressure is outrageous. I mean, of course, it's very, very populated.
Speaker 2: I can honestly say this is not an exaggeration, even
Speaker 2: though it's going to sound like it is. As a
Speaker 2: horticulturist who worked in New York City, I did not
Speaker 2: know a single other gardener who worked in Westchester or
Speaker 2: upstate who did not get one disease at least once.
Speaker 2: Not a single one. Wow, everyone got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And you know, I guess some
Speaker 1: strategies can be employed. We could hunt more, but we
Speaker 1: already said that there are less hunters today. Reintroduced predators,
Speaker 1: which is laughable.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting, but you know, not gonna work.
Speaker 1: Of course, they've looked at sterilizing female deer or trapping
Speaker 1: and killing animals. All come with trade offs. I mean
Speaker 1: in ann Arbor, a city here in Michigan, they tried
Speaker 1: the deer sterilization program, but it didn't work. They put
Speaker 1: it on hold. It's very expensive, it's difficult. You've got
Speaker 1: to get at least eighty percent of the female deer sterilized,
Speaker 1: and that that's a difficult task.
Speaker 2: Well, and I read a study not all that long
Speaker 2: ago that found that ovary tissue could grow back in
Speaker 2: deer that were sterilized, which is outrageous. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: crazy to even think about, but to think about investing
Speaker 2: the time and money and of course the stress on
Speaker 2: the animals of a for sterilization and then to not
Speaker 2: even have it work. I mean, and plus the when
Speaker 2: they did sterilize the deer, they put this giant tag
Speaker 2: in their ear. I mean, it was huge. So my
Speaker 2: friends lived in ann Arbor and I was looking out
Speaker 2: their back door one day and I was like, what
Speaker 2: in the world is with that deer? Looks like it's
Speaker 2: got some kind of crazy earring on. So it's also
Speaker 2: you know, humiliating for the deer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. I mean it's just there are there
Speaker 1: are not easy answers. Now the buck stops here, So
Speaker 1: we're going to try and give you some help. For example,
Speaker 1: at my home where there's tremendous deer pressure, the front yard,
Speaker 1: I plant nothing but deer resistant plants and it works
Speaker 1: quite well. The backyard I built a compound, put up
Speaker 1: signs that say no deer allowed, and that works quite well.
Speaker 1: But fencing is expensive and in some neighborhoods you just
Speaker 1: can't do it. It's maybe even unsightly. Of course, deer
Speaker 1: repellents some work better than others. And I do want
Speaker 1: to share real quickly a story, and that is I
Speaker 1: have mentioned on the program before that I use a
Speaker 1: deer repellent called Bobex. Now, the reason it's called Bobex
Speaker 1: is because the gentleman who invented it, bob Exady, is
Speaker 1: a Navy veteran and he was a chemist. He had
Speaker 1: a degree in chemistry, lived in Connecticut, had three hundred
Speaker 1: tomato plants.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot of tomatoes.
Speaker 1: Yes, And this is a gentleman who loved plants. He
Speaker 1: passed away a few years ago. But now his son,
Speaker 1: Greg who I've spoken with as CEO of the company.
Speaker 1: So they call it bob X because all of Bob's
Speaker 1: friends called them bob X, so they call the product
Speaker 1: bob X. But the point is is how well do
Speaker 1: these repellents work? And he had three hundred tomato plants
Speaker 1: and he found that with the plants that he fed
Speaker 1: with a fish fertilizer, the deer left them alone. So
Speaker 1: he went to work as a chemist. And it's interesting
Speaker 1: when I read the label, it, for example, has stuff
Speaker 1: in it like cat food. Oh, and I asked Greg,
Speaker 1: I said, cat food in my spray? He said, well,
Speaker 1: essentially what it is is it's chicken livers. And so
Speaker 1: when you look at deer, which are herbivores, and compare
Speaker 1: them to cats or dogs, they'll put chicken livers in
Speaker 1: dog and cat food. But herbivores, of course, do not
Speaker 1: like it. The fish oil makes for a great sticker,
Speaker 1: it does not wash off the foliage real quickly. So
Speaker 1: again I'm not being paid by Bobecks. I'm not sitting
Speaker 1: here just endorsing their products so that I can be paid.
Speaker 1: Coming from the garden center industry, I have used many
Speaker 1: repellents over the years, many repellents, many different types. This
Speaker 1: to me, stacy is the closest thing to a fence.
Speaker 1: Bobecks really works.
Speaker 2: All right, I'm a plants good person. Definitely bring your
Speaker 2: family and tell your neighbors to go inside before you
Speaker 2: spray it. But it also works, just smells ghastly.
Speaker 1: In the case of bobex of course, it's used as
Speaker 1: a sticker or something, fish oil essentially as an adhesive
Speaker 1: for this smelly stuff. And as we've talked about on
Speaker 1: the show before, putresse and egg solids, garlic, all this
Speaker 1: sort of stuff is put in the sprays also, and
Speaker 1: it's not fun going out there every night and spritsing
Speaker 1: those plants and coming back inside smelling like it.
Speaker 2: No, it smells terrible.
Speaker 1: It's not fun, but it beats building these little deer
Speaker 1: pens around the plants in your landscape. And you'll see
Speaker 1: that in landscapes. Now, there are many great plants that
Speaker 1: we can suggest for deer resistance and stacey right off
Speaker 1: the top. My favorite, of course is ornamental grasses. They
Speaker 1: don't touch ornamental grasses. There are so many great cultivars
Speaker 1: of ornamental grasses. So between ornamental grasses, nepeta lavender. There
Speaker 1: are a number of plants that are suited to deer resists.
Speaker 2: Tons. Really, there are tons of plants. I'm gonna talk
Speaker 2: about that a bit in Plants on Trial, But yeah,
Speaker 2: you are spoiled for choice when it comes to plants
Speaker 2: that the deer white. There really are so many amazing
Speaker 2: options basil. How glad am I that the deer don't
Speaker 2: eat basil.
Speaker 1: Exactly, So we'll look at that list in segment four today.
Speaker 1: Let me give you a quick limb. A Rick on
Speaker 1: this topic says, though I live in the wild Frontier,
Speaker 1: the nibbling on my plants is quite severe. They polished
Speaker 1: off my shrubs, my flowers down to nubs. What to do?
Speaker 1: I have no idear maybe Stacy has a few ideas
Speaker 1: for us in Plants on Trial. That's coming up next
Speaker 1: here on the Gardening Simplified Show.
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Speaker 2: Proven Winner's Color Choice Dot com reeting's gardening friends, and
Speaker 2: welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show, where the order
Speaker 2: of the day is deer. And of course, if you
Speaker 2: have been listening to us for some time, you already
Speaker 2: know that both Rick and I struggle mightily with deer
Speaker 2: in our yards. Has put up a fence, he might
Speaker 2: be being saying, like, Stacy, you complain about deer all the time,
Speaker 2: why don't you just put up a fence. And the
Speaker 2: fact is that the way that my yard is where
Speaker 2: the position of my driveway and everything else in my
Speaker 2: yard makes putting up a fence is quite difficult. I
Speaker 2: would need a very large gate to get over my
Speaker 2: driveway and seal off that part of my yard. I had,
Speaker 2: I have had quotes, I have had fence people tell
Speaker 2: me that that gate will be a nightmare in the winter.
Speaker 2: Don't do it. So that's why I don't have a Fenceless,
Speaker 2: I am defenseless, but I'm I am without offense, but
Speaker 2: I am not without defenses. Now, I do want to
Speaker 2: just give you like a brief little background if you
Speaker 2: haven't heard this story before. When we finally bought our house,
Speaker 2: I was like so excited to finally have a garden.
Speaker 2: You know, this is like a culmination of years of
Speaker 2: living in the city and not being able to afford
Speaker 2: a house, and then moving back to Michigan and living
Speaker 2: in New York not having a garden. And I was
Speaker 2: just like ready for it. And you know, we find
Speaker 2: the right house. It's got tons of sun, it's a
Speaker 2: nice flat lot, blank slate. My head is just swimming
Speaker 2: with ideas, so excited. And there was this sort of
Speaker 2: old vegetable garden at the back of the property. And
Speaker 2: one day we had been at the house and I
Speaker 2: saw that there was a potato coming up in it,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, all right, cool, you know
Speaker 2: old potato, that's fine whatever. It was about to flower.
Speaker 2: So a couple days later we were back at the house.
Speaker 2: We were talking to our neighbor in the back, meeting
Speaker 2: him for the first time, just chit chatting, and as
Speaker 2: we walk away, I say to my husband, I wonder
Speaker 2: what ate that potato? It was just about to flower.
Speaker 2: And my neighbor turns around and goes, oh, that that
Speaker 2: was the deer. And I wish it was one of
Speaker 2: those moments in life where I wish there was a
Speaker 2: camera so that I could have seen my face because
Speaker 2: it was like one of those scenes in the movie
Speaker 2: where you're just like, you know, happy and smiley and
Speaker 2: then like just like mood change on a dime. I mean,
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it because it's in an urban area
Speaker 2: and I never would have expected that it's a problem.
Speaker 2: And not only are deer a problem, they have become
Speaker 2: significantly worse in my area than they were when we
Speaker 2: moved into our house ten years ago.
Speaker 1: Same here, they walk right up the front steps and
Speaker 1: ring the deer.
Speaker 2: Bell pretty much right like they're fearless. And I will
Speaker 2: say this, we also have rabbits, and you know, the
Speaker 2: rabbits are also very, very destructive. But I will give
Speaker 2: the rabbits credit. They come around, they look darling. We
Speaker 2: get some entertainment value out of the rabbits, you know,
Speaker 2: I can forgive them a little bit. And of course
Speaker 2: if they eat too much, well then the plant just
Speaker 2: dies and it dies out, and then I don't have
Speaker 2: as many rabbits anymore. The deer, you know, I could
Speaker 2: appreciate them a little bit more if I ever saw them,
Speaker 2: but no, they do their damage under the cover of
Speaker 2: the night. I don't know what time, ten pm one
Speaker 2: in the morning anytime I am sound asleep, so I'm
Speaker 2: not even I'm getting like, wow, it was really cool
Speaker 2: to sit here and observe this deer like that. I
Speaker 2: get nothing in return. All I get is damage.
Speaker 1: Have you tried any of the motion activated stuff?
Speaker 2: I had a call a week ago today, in fact,
Speaker 2: a local gardener called me and I had to ask
Speaker 2: some questions and he was talking about his hostas, and
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, you have hostas out here. He goes, well,
Speaker 2: you know, the deer surgery eating. But then I got
Speaker 2: one of those motion detectors sprinklers. Okay, so no, here's
Speaker 2: my solution. Here's what I have done. Even though I
Speaker 2: took a year there where I was deluding myself into
Speaker 2: believing that I could grow whatever I want and do
Speaker 2: whatever I wanted in my property and spraying things and
Speaker 2: putting up cockamamie contraptions to block plants off from deer,
Speaker 2: I finally just decided, you know what, this is just
Speaker 2: going to be a deer resistant garden. And I have
Speaker 2: made all of my plant choices based on things that
Speaker 2: the deer won't eat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I said, that's what I did. In
Speaker 1: the front ornamental grasses, nepeta, lavender, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Right, So it is a choice that you can make
Speaker 2: if you are unable like me to fence off your yard,
Speaker 2: or you don't want to, or you know, if you
Speaker 2: live in a larger lot, fencing may become very impractical.
Speaker 2: So there's lots of reasons why. And I have to
Speaker 2: say that not only has this been an amazing learning
Speaker 2: experience for me, because I have, I really have learned
Speaker 2: so very much about plants and what deer will eat
Speaker 2: and all of that. But it's been rewarding and I
Speaker 2: have a lot lower maintenance garden as a result. And
Speaker 2: I have to tell you now, sitting here, you know,
Speaker 2: ten years later, nine years later, after this decision was made,
Speaker 2: I have no regrets and I don't feel deprived at all.
Speaker 2: Now I do wish I didn't have to have a
Speaker 2: giant fence around my vegetable garden. It would be really
Speaker 2: nice to just be able to stroll out magically to
Speaker 2: the vegetable garden and pick stuff without having to undo
Speaker 2: a bunch of you know, links and get into my
Speaker 2: vegetable But I'll take what I can get. But yeah,
Speaker 2: you you don't really miss out on great plants by
Speaker 2: limiting your palate to just things that dear won't be.
Speaker 1: I think you have to adjust. You know. One of
Speaker 1: the things we didn't mention in the first segment is
Speaker 1: the climate is changing also, and if the winters are
Speaker 1: milder again, you're going to have more a lot more damage.
Speaker 1: This is a problem that's not going to go.
Speaker 2: It's not going to give away. But this is plants
Speaker 2: on trial, So we're supposed to be talking about a plant,
Speaker 2: and I am pleased to share with you a fantastic
Speaker 2: plant that I adore that is very, very dear resistant
Speaker 2: and it is a sweet emotion Abelia. Great plant, Great plants.
Speaker 2: So Abelia Abelia is a plant that we've talked about
Speaker 2: occasionally on the show. If you live in a colder climate,
Speaker 2: you may have never heard of it because most abelias
Speaker 2: that are really popular are considered more southern plants. They're
Speaker 2: hardy down to about USDA Zone six. They're broad leaf evergreens,
Speaker 2: so they can suffer a little bit of winter damage. Well,
Speaker 2: today's Abelia, Today's plan on trial. Sweet emotion abelia not
Speaker 2: an issue. It is actually hardy down to USDA Zone four.
Speaker 2: It is probably the hardiest and one of the only
Speaker 2: hardy abelias out there. And so I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about sweet Emotion today because it is a member of
Speaker 2: our deer Proof program here at Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs.
Speaker 2: And this is a program that we started a few
Speaker 2: years ago, knowing how many people struggle with deer and
Speaker 2: knowing that when someone goes into a garden center and
Speaker 2: needs to find a plant that deer won't eat, that
Speaker 2: they don't want to look at one hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: different plant tags trying to figure out what the right
Speaker 2: plant is to put in their yard. So we came
Speaker 2: up with deer Proof. Yes it is a bold name,
Speaker 2: because deer will eat pretty much anything, but these are
Speaker 2: plants that truly are lowest on their list. And while
Speaker 2: they may need a little bit of protection when they
Speaker 2: are fresh and new, because when something is fresh from
Speaker 2: the garden center or grower, that growth is really tender.
Speaker 2: It's been super juiced up with water and fertilizer. So
Speaker 2: even plants that are deer resistant once they are established,
Speaker 2: can be a little bit delicate in those first couple
Speaker 2: weeks or months coming home from the garden center. But
Speaker 2: if you can get him through that these are plants
Speaker 2: that will be a long term investment in your landscape,
Speaker 2: no matter if or when or how many deer come up.
Speaker 2: But the other reason I wanted to talk about Sweet
Speaker 2: Emotion Amlia is because it was just blooming in our
Speaker 2: gardens here a few weeks ago, and Adriana and I
Speaker 2: were making a video and not on Sweet Emotion. We
Speaker 2: were making a video on Whygela that will be out
Speaker 2: very shortly, if it's not out already, and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, we just got overwhelmed with this amazing fragrance
Speaker 2: and we were like looking all around, you know, there's
Speaker 2: so much in bloom in the garden that we're like,
Speaker 2: it could be any number of things, and we quickly
Speaker 2: realized it was Sweet Emotion. And the fragrance, I mean,
Speaker 2: I like, I'm at a loss for words. It was
Speaker 2: so powerful and so lovely. The closest way that I
Speaker 2: can describe the fragrance of Sweet Emotion Abilia is it
Speaker 2: is like warm jasmine tea. And it was a warm
Speaker 2: day when we were out there and the sun just
Speaker 2: lifting the fragrance off of these flowers. It was it's glories.
Speaker 2: It's intoxicating. There really is very few other plants that
Speaker 2: smell this lovely, especially for cold climates like USDA Zone
Speaker 2: four five or six.
Speaker 1: So if you can handle a cold climate, is deer
Speaker 1: resistant fragrant blooms, then you add to that the if
Speaker 1: I recall correctly, gorgeous fall color.
Speaker 2: Gorgeous fall color a great plant. It is a great plant,
Speaker 2: and it's it's about five to six feet tall. Now
Speaker 2: we do have a new version coming out of out
Speaker 2: next year called Sweet Emotion Blaze just like it. It's
Speaker 2: a little bit smaller and it has even better fall color.
Speaker 2: But whichever one you find, they're both great plants, a
Speaker 2: good choice for hedging. I mean, can you imagine a
Speaker 2: hedge of this thing. The fragrance was eighty round. It
Speaker 2: was with me and she's just shaking her head right
Speaker 2: now because the fragrance was so amazing, and it attracts
Speaker 2: swallowtail butterflies. I see lots of pollinators on it as well.
Speaker 2: So a nice versatile plant. You don't have to worry
Speaker 2: about the deer eating it. Multi seasons of interest, and
Speaker 2: it is one of those plants that I think you
Speaker 2: just are like, wow, all this and it's deer resistant,
Speaker 2: not just like eh, the deer won't eat it, like
Speaker 2: this is not a plant where they're eating the flowers,
Speaker 2: which often happens to you that the plant itself will
Speaker 2: be deer resistant, but they like to eat the flowers.
Speaker 2: This is the case with a lot of viburnums which
Speaker 2: are on a lot of deer resistant lists. And no,
Speaker 2: they won't ruin your plant, but you will never get
Speaker 2: a flower or fruit on your plant if you have deer.
Speaker 2: So that's Sweet Emotion Abelia. I think it is a
Speaker 2: fantastic plant. If you don't have one, go visit a
Speaker 2: garden center. Maybe it's still in bloom so you can
Speaker 2: at least smell it, because it is really a treat
Speaker 2: and a plant that you will be very glad to
Speaker 2: have in your yard, even though the deer will not
Speaker 2: for once. So you can find out more information at
Speaker 2: Gardening Simplified on air dot com, or just visit your
Speaker 2: local garden center and ask them for Sweet Emotion Abelia
Speaker 2: from Proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs. It's part of our
Speaker 2: Deerproof program and we will put a link to the
Speaker 2: Deerproof program there so you can also see all of
Speaker 2: the other plants that are available for you. If you
Speaker 2: struggle with your like we do, We're going to take
Speaker 2: a little break. When we come back, we're opening up
Speaker 2: the mailbag, so please stay tuned. At Proven Winners Color
Speaker 2: Choice Shrubs, we know that a better landscape starts with
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Speaker 2: express your personal style, look for Proven Winner's Shrubs in
Speaker 2: the distinctive white container at your local garden center, or
Speaker 2: learn more at Proven Winner's Color Choice dot com. Greetings
Speaker 2: gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show,
Speaker 2: where again we're talking about deer. And I think that
Speaker 2: Rick and I could fill several shows talking about deer,
Speaker 2: not necessarily because it's a topic that we enjoy discussing,
Speaker 2: like we have had other shows where we were like
Speaker 2: we could talk about this for days. But I think
Speaker 2: it's a topic that both you and I Rick have
Speaker 2: learned so much about, and that to me is one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why it's so interesting, is because I
Speaker 2: would not have learned nearly as much about plants and
Speaker 2: gardening as I have because I've had to deal with deer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're forced into it and working in the garden center,
Speaker 1: even this past weekend, when you stand around and chat
Speaker 1: with folks who are shopping for plants, usually one of
Speaker 1: the first words out of their mouth, will the deer
Speaker 1: eat this thing?
Speaker 2: Because they don't know it's and it's hard, frustrating, it's frustrating,
Speaker 2: and you know, a lot of plant tags just aren't
Speaker 2: that informative. We do for proofn minners, colored choice shrubs,
Speaker 2: we do have a deer resistance scale on all of
Speaker 2: our tags, so we have the deerproof plants. You know,
Speaker 2: those are going to be the highest resistance. But when
Speaker 2: you open up our tags, it says, you know, deer
Speaker 2: resistance low, medium, high. So we do have that easy
Speaker 2: for people to understand, because this is a problem, you know, everywhere. Now,
Speaker 2: before I launch into our questions, because they don't want
Speaker 2: to take up too much time, I do want to
Speaker 2: just make sure we have a few moments to talk
Speaker 2: about some key characteristics. If the plant doesn't have an
Speaker 2: informative plant tag that you can look for, so hairy
Speaker 2: foliage is usually a big one. They don't normally like
Speaker 2: things that are hairyer have like texture tom. They don't
Speaker 2: like anything that's going to have like a visible sap.
Speaker 2: So like anything if you break a little leaf off
Speaker 2: and it has like a white sap, not gonna eat that.
Speaker 2: And usually things with foliage with fragrance. So I have
Speaker 2: an herb garden that is unprotected. They never take a
Speaker 2: bite out of any of that.
Speaker 1: So same thing here time or reagano aliums, anything in
Speaker 1: the onion fan chives.
Speaker 2: Always basil, which I think is amazing, so happy they
Speaker 2: don't eat basil, although they do eat colius like crazy,
Speaker 2: but that's not a dirpe, so that's another one. So
Speaker 2: if you can feel the foliage and it gives off
Speaker 2: like a resinous kind of aroma, that's another really good option.
Speaker 2: But some of the plants I feel like are completely inexplicable.
Speaker 2: As we've talked about on the show. Taxis you one
Speaker 2: of the most toxic plants for most for humans and
Speaker 2: probably most other animals eat Deer will eat a taxis
Speaker 2: down to its bear branches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy, you know. I have Vitex, which smells
Speaker 1: like vis vapo rub and they ate it down to
Speaker 1: the nubs. They did YUCKU. Yeah, it was crazy. So,
Speaker 1: you know, people, there's certain foods you just don't like.
Speaker 1: You know, like I don't like jello molds. You know,
Speaker 1: these gelatinous salads, I just don't like them. But if
Speaker 1: you're hungry enough and that's all there is, well, I
Speaker 1: guess you'll lead it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, you don't have much of a choice.
Speaker 1: There, ambrosia salad, you know, pineapple, mandarin, oranges, coconut marshmallows
Speaker 1: and sour cream. I'm not going to eat that, but
Speaker 1: I will if I'm hungry in.
Speaker 2: Them, I guess. So. So there are some visual cues,
Speaker 2: but you can't always rely on them. I mean, roses
Speaker 2: are famously a favorite of deer, and of course roses
Speaker 2: are famously thorny, but deer will eat any roses. They
Speaker 2: are a little bit less attracted to something like the
Speaker 2: beach rose, but they'll still ete those. I mean, I've
Speaker 2: seen them in my neighborhood totally devoured. So so there's
Speaker 2: not so as far as spines and that kind of
Speaker 2: thing go not a magical you know key there that
Speaker 2: we can share with you. But generally I have found that,
Speaker 2: like the resinous fragrances and hairiness.
Speaker 1: Yep, that's true. Pungent fragrances. Russian sage would be in it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they definitely don't like that plant. So it's
Speaker 2: just a guideline. But this is a situation where certainly,
Speaker 2: if you have a lot of deer, if you're new
Speaker 2: to gardening with deer, you know, get your plant list experiment.
Speaker 2: And oh another thing I wanted to say, Like I said,
Speaker 2: if plants that are fresh from the garden center are
Speaker 2: going to be more susceptible to deer than plants that
Speaker 2: are established. Also, I find that it helps a lot
Speaker 2: to get bigger plants if you can. So, if you're
Speaker 2: at the garden center and you're going to buy a
Speaker 2: shrub and you have a choice between a one gallon
Speaker 2: shrub and a three gallon shrub and you have deer,
Speaker 2: get the three gallon because that one gallon is a
Speaker 2: snack for a deer that three gallon And when it's
Speaker 2: got those thicker branches, they're a lot less likely to
Speaker 2: bite into thicker, more mature wood or stems than thinner wood.
Speaker 1: Now in the area where we live here in Michigan,
Speaker 1: would you say that the standard that's held up as
Speaker 1: deer food would be hostas and tulips.
Speaker 2: Hostas, tulips daylilies. Yeah, you gotta get the daililies in there.
Speaker 2: Ok Yeah, so you got something for every season, tulips
Speaker 2: in the spring, hostas and daylilies in the summer. Okay, well,
Speaker 2: let's try to hold. We have a question from Leslie.
Speaker 1: Leslie, Hi, guys absolutely love to show and appreciate the
Speaker 1: chance to hit play and zone out the world and
Speaker 1: think about plants. I love that too. Our house has
Speaker 1: a very old, absolutely massive dragon Lady Holly. The leaves
Speaker 1: are so sharp ouch. There's a lot of swearing during
Speaker 1: the spring cleanup. It gets loaded with flowers every May,
Speaker 1: but never berries. I bought a boyfriend a blueprint last year,
Speaker 1: but they won't sync up and bloom on time. I
Speaker 1: suspect it's due to unequal sun. The dragon Lady's about
Speaker 1: to open flowers again. The blueprints has already done. Can
Speaker 1: I go buy any mail with open flowers to try
Speaker 1: and force berries this year? Or is it going to
Speaker 1: be a fruitless pursuit? Leslie? I like your sense of humus.
Speaker 2: She got a little pun in there for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when the heck, are you supposed to cut
Speaker 1: this thing? Yes, you gotta helpless.
Speaker 2: We too have to help Leslie, and now is the time.
Speaker 2: So if you have a holly, now, Leslie, dragon Lady
Speaker 2: is kind of like a blue holly. I actually think
Speaker 2: it might be a hybrid. But in any case, whether
Speaker 2: you have a winterberry holly or an American holly or
Speaker 2: one of these blue Holli's English holly, whatever holly you have,
Speaker 2: they are all dioecious, which is to say, they have
Speaker 2: separate male and female plants. Only the females get the berries.
Speaker 2: But you do need to have at least one male
Speaker 2: for every four to five females to make sure that
Speaker 2: the females actually do develop fruit. Now, the absence of
Speaker 2: fruit alone is not going to tell you whether your
Speaker 2: plant is male or female, because there's all sorts of
Speaker 2: reasons why your plant might not have fruit on it.
Speaker 2: The only way, there's only one single way to tell,
Speaker 2: and it is that narrow window when the plant flowers,
Speaker 2: and you need to look closely at the flowers to
Speaker 2: tell whether they're male or female. Fortunately, it's very simple.
Speaker 2: The female, because it is going to turn into the berry,
Speaker 2: has a tiny green sphere sort of in the center.
Speaker 2: It's small, but it's noticeable. It sticks up prominently from
Speaker 2: above the flower, so it's easy to see. The male, meanwhile,
Speaker 2: does not have that in the center, and it has
Speaker 2: fluffy anther. Interestingly, the female flowers some on some hollies
Speaker 2: do produce fake anthers in an attempt to fake out
Speaker 2: the pollinators and make them think they're gonna get pollen
Speaker 2: and nectar when in fact, nope, oops, you just delivered pollen.
Speaker 2: Nothing here for you, ha ha psich. So that's a
Speaker 2: don't just look for the anthers, but look for that
Speaker 2: green dot. If it has a green dot, it's a female.
Speaker 2: No green dot and fluffy anthers, it's a male.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Leslie actually wrote a couple days after she sent this message,
Speaker 2: and she's and the subject line was, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: is my Holly a boy? And she sent a picture
Speaker 2: now that it was flowering, and sure enough this what
Speaker 2: she had thought was a dragon Lady Holly was actually
Speaker 2: a male and that was why it was not getting
Speaker 2: any So now is the time to check your plants.
Speaker 2: You can only find out for sure when they are
Speaker 2: in flower again. You're gonna want one male to every
Speaker 2: four to five females, you were gonna want them planted
Speaker 2: within ideally fifty feet of one another. This is sort
Speaker 2: of the general distance that they recommend for insects to
Speaker 2: cover on their foraging trips. And of course the bloom
Speaker 2: times have to overlap exactly because, as Leslie pointed out,
Speaker 2: if they don't flower at the same time the poland
Speaker 2: they can't pollinate because there's no pollen there when the
Speaker 2: females are open, or vice versa. If you don't know
Speaker 2: there is, this is funny. There is a blue holly
Speaker 2: called blue stallion.
Speaker 1: Yes, there is.
Speaker 2: A very apt name. Blue Stallion has a longer bloom period,
Speaker 2: so this is kind of like you're all purpose if
Speaker 2: you don't know exactly when or what male to pick.
Speaker 2: Blue stallion is kind of like your safe pick for
Speaker 2: blue hollies because.
Speaker 1: You can readily find the blue prints. But some people
Speaker 1: get frustrated to the point they want a stallion.
Speaker 2: Yes, right, so blue stallion. And the thing is Leslie
Speaker 2: asks if she can just go to the garden center
Speaker 2: and buy one that's in bloom at the same time.
Speaker 2: That's not a full proof method because any plants at
Speaker 2: the garden center would have come from a grower or
Speaker 2: have been overwintered by the garden center. That means they
Speaker 2: got a head start on the season compared to being
Speaker 2: outdoors in your yard. Therefore, they'll be at different phases.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's even going to be an issue if
Speaker 2: you find a competible pollinator, and of course it's bloom
Speaker 2: time is off for that first year. As for when
Speaker 2: are you supposed to cut this thing, well, the good news,
Speaker 2: leslie is male hollies can be cut any time after
Speaker 2: they're finished blooming. If you cut them and provene them back,
Speaker 2: then no harm done. Female hollies, on the other hand,
Speaker 2: really cannot be successfully pruned unless you're willing to sacrifice
Speaker 2: flowers and or fruit, because if you cut them in
Speaker 2: the spring before they bloom, you'll be cutting off the
Speaker 2: flower buds. If you cut them after they bloom, you'll
Speaker 2: be cutting off the fruit. So the best thing to
Speaker 2: do is to try to cite them appropriately, minimal pruning,
Speaker 2: or just you know, resolve yourself to not having any
Speaker 2: flowers one year.
Speaker 1: We're handling prickly difficult issues today we are.
Speaker 2: It is a had you heard of.
Speaker 1: The phenomenon where a holly plant the foliage and the
Speaker 1: lower portion reachable by deer are more prickly and thorny
Speaker 1: than in the upper portion of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Junipers do that too. Yeah, it's like an ivy
Speaker 2: does that as well. So it's like a juvenile and
Speaker 2: mature foliage thing that the plants create so that they
Speaker 2: are less subject to predation on that lower growth. But yeah,
Speaker 2: all that's a great way to bring it into today's
Speaker 2: theme of deer.
Speaker 1: Like you said, we could do three or four shows.
Speaker 2: On this top and then some so in any case,
Speaker 2: thank you Leslie for your question. And if you have
Speaker 2: a question for us, you can reach us at Gardening
Speaker 2: Simplified to on air dot com, or just go to
Speaker 2: proven Owner's Color Choice dot com hit the contact tab
Speaker 2: and we'll get you an answer much quicker than here.
Speaker 2: On the show. We're going to take a little break
Speaker 2: and when we come back, we've got a special guest
Speaker 2: and of course a little bit more chatter on deer.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Gardening Simplified Podcast, brought to
Speaker 2: you by Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs. Our award winning
Speaker 2: flowering shrubs and evergreens are trialed and tested by experts
Speaker 2: with your success in mind. Learn more at Proven winners
Speaker 2: color Choice dot Com.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show. Special guest here
Speaker 1: on the show, Ali Locker. She is a professor in
Speaker 1: Natural Resources management and wildlife biology programs with Grand Valley
Speaker 1: State University and Ali, thanks for joining us on the show.
Speaker 1: Had the chance to meet you at the Deer Management Coalition.
Speaker 1: Pretty amazing when you take a look at a community
Speaker 1: like Kent County here in Michigan. The deer problem that
Speaker 1: we all struggle.
Speaker 3: With, right, Yeah, it is, and it's more than just
Speaker 3: a deer problem. I think it's a human problem too.
Speaker 3: People tend to operate as if we were in a
Speaker 3: bubble and completely disconnected from the outside world and unaware
Speaker 3: how our actions, even if seemingly small, create these consequences
Speaker 3: and then define as the deer problem, especially when they're
Speaker 3: considered cumulatively.
Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing statistics that were shared at this meeting alley
Speaker 1: about how dense the population of deer are, and it
Speaker 1: seems as though the problem is only getting worse as
Speaker 1: far as car deer crashes are concerned. Landscape damage et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Some of it, of course, due to suburban
Speaker 1: sprawl in your surveys and in your work with a
Speaker 1: county such as Kent County for Grand Valley State University,
Speaker 1: what is your goal? What are you trying to accomplish?
Speaker 1: Are you trying to educate people on the issue or
Speaker 1: go beyond that and actually find some solutions. Are there solutions?
Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of both of those. Yes, we definitely
Speaker 3: are trying to educate people. I think a lot of
Speaker 3: people are really unaware of the problem. They're unaware like
Speaker 3: their individual actions are contributing or expanding this problems. They're
Speaker 3: unaware of statistics like cardier crashes and the number of
Speaker 3: roadkilled deer has exceeded the number of hunter harvested deer
Speaker 3: in Ken County over the past year, and people just
Speaker 3: people that are not aware of that. So, yes, we
Speaker 3: are trying to educate people with empirical data that's collected
Speaker 3: and presented in a way that's easily understood by non
Speaker 3: scientists or in a way that people can relate to.
Speaker 3: We also are working towards developing management recommendations. And this
Speaker 3: is a collective effort. This isn't the the researchers dictating
Speaker 3: what needs to happen. It's multifaceted and we're we're taking
Speaker 3: input in suggestions and ideas that the residents also have.
Speaker 3: We have numbers on privacied deer, roadkilled deer, we have
Speaker 3: numbers on estimated deer densities or areas where there's higher
Speaker 3: versus lower concentrations of deer throughout different seasons. And we've
Speaker 3: got input from residents through the two surveys that we've implemented.
Speaker 3: We're going to layer them all using mapping technology and
Speaker 3: statistics to identify deer management zones within Kent County and
Speaker 3: have overall recommendations for the entire county, but then specific
Speaker 3: recommendations for each of those management zones that we can
Speaker 3: present to the local government.
Speaker 2: Now, one thing that you've mentioned twice in the very
Speaker 2: short time we've been talking is you don't use is
Speaker 2: you said that humans are contributing and they don't even
Speaker 2: realize it. So I'm curious what are the ways that
Speaker 2: humans are contributing. You know that we could modify perhaps
Speaker 2: our behaviors.
Speaker 3: You know, in our society the dollar time money drives everything,
Speaker 3: and expansion mentioned urban sprawl that is contributing a problem.
Speaker 3: So in an area with maybe wooded or rural building,
Speaker 3: one house probably doesn't have any effects, but building several
Speaker 3: houses or several subdivisions trematively over time does Deer as
Speaker 3: a species have evolved as prey just like mice. And
Speaker 3: in these systems where humans are expanding and altering the structure, compositions,
Speaker 3: functioning of natural ecosystems, we've removed the predator, and in
Speaker 3: systems you need that predator to maintain balance and biodiversity.
Speaker 3: So if we've altered these landscapes with our development and
Speaker 3: created conditions that are very favorable for expanding deer populations,
Speaker 3: that's a problem. So like mice the ticken coop, You're
Speaker 3: you're beating the tickens, but all of the mice are
Speaker 3: benefiting from that, and the populations get out of control. So,
Speaker 3: you know, with provisions of adequate habitat, we're providing for
Speaker 3: dear you know, spawning areas underneath people's trampolines, or security
Speaker 3: cover in the row of trees between neighboring houses. We've
Speaker 3: also with this expansion, we decreased the amount of available
Speaker 3: land for hunting. Maybe there's a decreased interest in hunting,
Speaker 3: but the surplus number of deer needs to go somewhere,
Speaker 3: So they're running out into the roads. It's a it's
Speaker 3: a big problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly is. We're talking to Alexandra Locker. She
Speaker 1: is a professor natural Resources Management and wildlife Biology programs
Speaker 1: with Grand Valley State University. Before we let you go, Allie,
Speaker 1: just wanted to ask you in your work on this
Speaker 1: and thank you for your work in surveying and working
Speaker 1: with the community. Do you find that there is general
Speaker 1: consensus among people that we have an issue here that
Speaker 1: we have to find management techniques or have you found
Speaker 1: this to be kind of an emotional difficult issue when
Speaker 1: you're dealing with the community.
Speaker 3: It is very emotional people. You are very charismatic, and
Speaker 3: some people you know, have found their connection with nature
Speaker 3: through deer. They like to see the deer, they like
Speaker 3: to feed the deer, but they also are concerned for
Speaker 3: the well being of the deer and they don't want
Speaker 3: to see any deer be harmed. And that's totally understandable.
Speaker 3: But the reality is that the deer are being harmed,
Speaker 3: like if we don't have any hunting involved in serving
Speaker 3: that role as like a predator, the deer are being
Speaker 3: killed by vehicles and that's not respectful. And I don't
Speaker 3: think some people might not even think it's ethical. You're
Speaker 3: that are being killed that way, are suffering in the road,
Speaker 3: and then the bodies are being dumped into a landfill,
Speaker 3: whereas if they were harvested, you know, they could be
Speaker 3: used for food and for leather and for for other resources,
Speaker 3: which is respectful to the deer. So as your question,
Speaker 3: it's it's a it's a complicated scenario with a lot
Speaker 3: of different layers, and we are considering the emotional aspect.
Speaker 3: I think we we have to in this to find
Speaker 3: a solution, and most people do recognize that something has
Speaker 3: to be done. And through these public surveys that we did,
Speaker 3: it was really refreshing and relieving that pretty much everybody
Speaker 3: was on the same page. You know, there are some
Speaker 3: skeptics that don't think that there is a problem, but
Speaker 3: overall it was it was really nice to see the
Speaker 3: community coming together saying, Okay, how can we put our
Speaker 3: minds together and do something that's better.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's great. Yes, we all have to work together
Speaker 1: towards those solutions. Thank you, Ali for your time and
Speaker 1: for the work that you do. Again. Her name is
Speaker 1: Alexandra Locker's Professor Natural Resources Management, Wildlife Biology programs at
Speaker 1: Grand Valley State University. Thanks for spending a few moments
Speaker 1: with us today.
Speaker 3: Thank you my pleasure, thank.
Speaker 1: You, thank you, Ali Stacy so as Ali said, it's
Speaker 1: an emotional issue, but there are things that we can
Speaker 1: do and I have been successful. I know you have
Speaker 1: two implanting some deer resistant plants and I love the
Speaker 1: proven winners Color Choice Shrubs Deer Proof line of plants
Speaker 1: because I can tell you working in the greenhouse, customers
Speaker 1: love being able to pick out a sprinter, boxwood or
Speaker 1: the Sweet and Low, any of those plants. Potentilla a
Speaker 1: great choice. There are options out there.
Speaker 2: There are so many options out there, and you know,
Speaker 2: as gardeners, I think Rick, you and I are maybe
Speaker 2: a little bit willing to experiment with things, and there
Speaker 2: are certainly people out there who are just like I'm
Speaker 2: not going to take a risk. But I think that
Speaker 2: for us, our trial and error has actually paid off
Speaker 2: and we have a good list of plants that we love.
Speaker 2: We're not settling. These are great plants that we actually
Speaker 2: love to see that we can grow without any production.
Speaker 1: No question, and they fulfill a lot of needs. Brunera
Speaker 1: of course, Pulmon area and hellebores. We mentioned Russian sage, iris, aliums, tribes,
Speaker 1: the herbs, all of these plants. Menarda is a you know,
Speaker 1: a plant that's been around for ages, although there's wonderful
Speaker 1: new cultivars and does a great job with deer.
Speaker 2: Resists deer or rabbits. I'm not sure which do you
Speaker 2: eat my Menarda?
Speaker 1: Do they?
Speaker 2: But you know what, iris always surprise me. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean iris are one of those plants there's so pretty.
Speaker 2: I mean, they don't have any particular odor or smell,
Speaker 2: and they never ever, actually shouldn't say that they did
Speaker 2: eat my Iris reticulata, but they don't eat like the
Speaker 2: bearded iris to Siberian iris, all the irises that are blooming,
Speaker 2: you know now in early summer, they leave them completely alone.
Speaker 1: I have a cultivar called Purple Flame. The spring, the
Speaker 1: deer ate all the flowers off it and some of
Speaker 1: the folds, and that's the first time I've had iris
Speaker 1: damage in my landscape. Now again, we had a rough
Speaker 1: winter this past winter and the deer were hungry. So
Speaker 1: you know the whole point is that, you know, we
Speaker 1: can make these lists of resistant plants, but if deer
Speaker 1: are hungry enough, they may venture into just about anything.
Speaker 2: Well, there's that. And people also need to realize that
Speaker 2: the fawns the baby deer, you know, they don't just
Speaker 2: get downloaded like a book of knowledge of plants that
Speaker 2: they can eat when they're born. They do have to
Speaker 2: figure it out, and so there are periods where the
Speaker 2: fawns are to kind of strike out on their own,
Speaker 2: where they sample things that deer normally won't and they
Speaker 2: don't eat a lot, you know, but it might be
Speaker 2: a situation where you are seeing some damage because the
Speaker 2: fawns learn much like humans do by doing so, they
Speaker 2: learn by sampling, and so sometimes you will see those occasional,
Speaker 2: you know, plants that they don't usually eat with a
Speaker 2: little bit of and yeah, maybe they just choke it down.
Speaker 2: They're like, this was terrible, but I ate it anyway.
Speaker 1: It's no fawn watching them eat your plants. And yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes they just choke it down. But the parents are watching,
Speaker 1: and I guess if they're good and they eat everything
Speaker 1: on their plate, they take them to the dearie queen
Speaker 1: for a treat. Just bad. I know.
Speaker 2: That was bad, Rick, Well, dear can't spin anything out either,
Speaker 2: so if they try something. They just have to chew
Speaker 2: until it goes down, so you're gonna eat it and
Speaker 2: you're gonna like exactly.
Speaker 1: But even something like bud Leah, you know, I approach
Speaker 1: that cautiously in my landscape with a Miss Molly and
Speaker 1: a Miss Violet, but they've pretty much left them alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that they don't eat that. Again, another
Speaker 2: plant that I'm not really sure why because it doesn't
Speaker 2: seem to have any characteristics that they don't like. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm glad that they don't. Baptisia, my summarific hibiscus. Sometimes
Speaker 2: a couple of them get a little bit of you
Speaker 2: can tell it was just like a taste. They were like, my,
Speaker 2: wonder if this is any good? No it's not, but
Speaker 2: not enough to you know. There's a difference between plants
Speaker 2: that the deer will absolutely devour and take down to
Speaker 2: nubs and truly ruin, like arborvide And we've all seen
Speaker 2: the horrible looking arborvids in our neighborhoods and cities and
Speaker 2: everything that the deer ate, and those will never really recover,
Speaker 2: same with you, whereas a lot of other things, you know,
Speaker 2: they can actually recover if the damage is minimal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly it. With the Dutch blood running through
Speaker 1: my veins. I love growing bulbs, but I can't grow tulips.
Speaker 1: They just it's candy to deer. But I can grow
Speaker 1: fritile area, daffodils, iris aliums.
Speaker 2: Those well, those are a fine consolation because those are
Speaker 2: all perfectly lovely.
Speaker 1: So you know the tul I guess, go into the compound.
Speaker 2: You go down to holland get your tulip, phil come
Speaker 2: back home and get to the good stuff.
Speaker 1: How about if we put a little list on our
Speaker 1: show notes.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Let's do that, and you can reference those going to
Speaker 1: our website. But boy, maybe we're going to have to
Speaker 1: do another show on this topic too.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love talking about it because I feel
Speaker 2: like it has been again, such a learning experience for me.
Speaker 2: And I would encourage people who have deer to not
Speaker 2: just throw up your hands and tear out your landscape.
Speaker 2: Use it as a learning opportunity, use it as a
Speaker 2: plant palette expansion opportunity. And you know, as gardeners, we're optimists, so.
Speaker 1: Don't give up deer to be different.
Speaker 2: I have to say I was expecting a lot more
Speaker 2: puns from you today, but it's been like.
Speaker 1: A lot of deal and me how I controlled.
Speaker 2: I think Leslie had more puns in her message to
Speaker 2: us than you have done in the entire show to
Speaker 2: dear all right, Well with that, thank you Rix for
Speaker 2: your input on Deer, and thanks to Professor Locker, Thanks Adriana,
Speaker 2: and thanks so much to all of you for listening.
Speaker 2: We hope you have a fantastic week ahead.