Speaker 2: All right, what's up.
Speaker 1: We're on the road, and not Cormack McCarthy's the road.
Speaker 1: We will not be chomping on anybody's thighs or butts.
Speaker 2: We are on the road.
Speaker 1: And I thought it's perfect timing to return to the
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings. I've not read The Hobbit or
Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings in many, many years. Of
Speaker 1: course they read it, I think a couple times when
Speaker 1: I was in junior high and high school, and.
Speaker 2: Now is the perfect time to return to it, just because.
Speaker 1: And I also realized that a lot of the analyzes
Speaker 1: that are out there, they're really good. There are plenty
Speaker 1: that focus on this or that element, this or that,
Speaker 1: you know, layer or level of analysis, but not many
Speaker 1: people have done a significant deep dive covering all of
Speaker 1: the influences, the layers, the levels, and even the intelligence
Speaker 1: domain that I think is clearly there to influence Tolkien.
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about all that. This is
Speaker 1: probably going to be a several part series. It won't
Speaker 1: be just one, it's going to be multiple parts.
Speaker 2: So we're going to start with the first half of
Speaker 2: the Hobbits today.
Speaker 1: So we've gotten through actually more than the first half
Speaker 1: of this will be a Part one and a part too,
Speaker 1: So if you want to get access to the full
Speaker 1: video here, you'll want to subscribe to Jay's analysis and
Speaker 1: head on over to the website or here for members
Speaker 1: on YouTube and choose the four ninety five option or
Speaker 1: the sixty dollars a year option to get access to
Speaker 1: the full talks. Of course, I am still going to
Speaker 1: do the Old Boys Part two very soon. That will
Speaker 1: be in the midst of this ongoing series. But we
Speaker 1: have a long journey ahead of us. We have our
Speaker 1: own little journey to Mordor as we go to Vegas
Speaker 1: in LA for host of podcasts, And so what.
Speaker 2: Better ascetic struggle than.
Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings in the Hobbit. Now, a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know, as we said that the
Speaker 1: Hobbit is kind of a little many Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: I've noticed that it's basically the same patterns, the same structure,
Speaker 1: And of course it was written for his children.
Speaker 2: So Tolkien wrote that for his.
Speaker 1: Kids, and then as they got older they would be
Speaker 1: a little more able to digest the intense complexities of
Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings. But the Hobbit was a
Speaker 1: precursor to that kind of a prologue. You could say,
Speaker 1: but how's not just a lot of the same themes
Speaker 1: kind of in a shorter mini version. It also has
Speaker 1: a lot of different layers and symbolic structures that again
Speaker 1: I think most people are not aware of. A key
Speaker 1: element to that is integral to my thesis is a
Speaker 1: recent declassification that occurred amongst British government and British Intelligence that,
Speaker 1: of course, you got it. Tolkien was an intelligence operative
Speaker 1: at least to some degree.
Speaker 2: For a couple of years.
Speaker 1: He worked at Bletchley Park for British Intelligence, which was
Speaker 1: the Enigma machine slash Alan Turing area of cryptography. So
Speaker 1: they were engaged in decoding World War two cryptographic communications
Speaker 1: by the tiny mustache man people and others. So I
Speaker 1: think that's a key component to where we can see
Speaker 1: that World War two tiny mustache man stuff plays a role.
Speaker 1: It is not all about that. People have obviously different theories.
Speaker 1: They think it's about money in the banking structure. All
Speaker 1: of those things can be the case. And when we
Speaker 1: read this in tandem with other Inklings writings which.
Speaker 2: We've covered, such as C. S.
Speaker 1: Lewis's famous Space trilogy, we know that as we progress
Speaker 1: through one two and through the Space Trilogy. We covered
Speaker 1: that very in depth, maybe three years ago. One of
Speaker 1: those videos actually got anywhere. I think it was a
Speaker 1: quarter million, maybe even up to half a million, between
Speaker 1: all the different outlets of views between Lord Voldemort and
Speaker 1: the Fourth Hour when we did that bunch of other
Speaker 1: outlets like acts. So in that we noticed that there's
Speaker 1: a specific reference in the appendix to Volume one of
Speaker 1: the Space Trilogy where Lewis notes that Professor Ransom is
Speaker 1: basically Tolkien. And in that appendix it discusses Tolkien discovering
Speaker 1: some neoplatonic medieval texts that he thought were sort of
Speaker 1: crucial to interpreting the world and reality and the Grand narrative.
Speaker 1: And so The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings
Speaker 1: are kind of like Lewis's works, And I know there's
Speaker 1: a difference between them. I've interviewed my godfather, Dean Arnold
Speaker 1: on some of their disagreements over literature.
Speaker 2: But both of those writers.
Speaker 1: Are trying to re interject a transcendent mythological worldview. And
Speaker 1: I don't be mean by mythology fake, I mean true myth,
Speaker 1: right myth containing truth and meaning, and that reality is
Speaker 1: no longer abstracted scientific data as the Enlightenment and Darwinian
Speaker 1: ethos kind of scientific revolution gave the world. Now the
Speaker 1: world would be re interjected with meaning, and so Space Trilogy, Narnia,
Speaker 1: and all of the canon of Tolkien's Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings Silmarillion included, they are an attempt to give a
Speaker 1: grand narrative and reintroduce meaning, especially in a post.
Speaker 2: World War one and World War two world. So there's
Speaker 2: a lot of.
Speaker 1: Negative attitudes, a lot of black pilling going on after
Speaker 1: World War One and.
Speaker 2: World War Two.
Speaker 1: And one thing that both writers have as a commonality
Speaker 1: is the return of Christian monarchy, the Christian king, the
Speaker 1: return of the king. Same theme in the Space Trilogy
Speaker 1: when Merlin comes back, he says, let's get the King
Speaker 1: of England.
Speaker 2: He'll help us.
Speaker 1: Out, and they're all like, uh No, that dude ain't
Speaker 1: gonna help you at all. He's part of the bad guys,
Speaker 1: He's part of Tavistok. And that's essentially what's going on
Speaker 1: in part three of the Space Trilogy. So we've covered
Speaker 1: all that though, but that's a key window into the
Speaker 1: fact that I think both writers were giving their insight
Speaker 1: and their wisdom about the twentieth century, and the dangers
Speaker 1: not just on a technological, spiritual or a technological worldly level,
Speaker 1: but also on a global level in terms of the
Speaker 1: possibility of total information awareness, all seeing eye technology. That's
Speaker 1: exactly what's going on with Mordor and the Eye of Salron.
Speaker 2: Of course we'll get to that later on. That's not
Speaker 2: the subject really of the.
Speaker 1: Hobbit, but you do have some of the classic literary
Speaker 1: tropes and archetypes, like the dragon. The dragon basically feeding
Speaker 1: off of human desires and greed. We know that, of
Speaker 1: course Thorin is tempted with greed. And we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the races of Middle Earth and all that, but really
Speaker 1: the Hobbit, I think assess the stage for the introduction
Speaker 1: to Middle Earth and the idea of bringing back good
Speaker 1: and evil, that all of the races really have a
Speaker 1: common enemy, which is a spiritual enemy, something beyond merely
Speaker 1: political factions or racial factions and tentions. Not that those
Speaker 1: things don't exist, but they're not the real sort of concern.
Speaker 1: Another thing that I think is crucial to understand is the.
Speaker 2: Lost Work that.
Speaker 1: Was going to be a sequel that Tolkien was going
Speaker 1: to do, which was called The new Shadow, and he
Speaker 1: mentions this in a couple of his letters, and he
Speaker 1: says that really the sequel to the Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings was supposed to be, in his own words, a
Speaker 1: future Gondor about one hundred years after the time of Aragorn,
Speaker 1: where a dark Orc Satanic cult, and he calls it
Speaker 1: a secret Satanist religion had taken over, using secret societies
Speaker 1: to subvert Gondor. And of course there's a lot of
Speaker 1: parallels between Gondor and Byzantium, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: parallels between Numanor and Atlantis, and we'll get to all
Speaker 1: that when we get to Lord of the Rings. But
Speaker 1: the idea was that in the Fourth Age there would
Speaker 1: be the children of Arwin and Aragorn. They would be
Speaker 1: confronting some new rising evil where the Orcs would have
Speaker 1: a secret Satanic society seeking to overthrow the legitimate rulers
Speaker 1: of Gondor, which will be the seat of Airyworn. And
Speaker 1: that again speaks to the loss of Christian government, Christian monarchy,
Speaker 1: Christian imperium, which was the norm throughout the Middle Ages
Speaker 1: East and West, the Byzantine Empire or the Eastern Roman
Speaker 1: Catholic Empire, not Roman Catholic in the papal sense, but
Speaker 1: Roman in the ROMIOI sense Catholic and the universal faith
Speaker 1: confession sense, which is what of course Orthodox Christians are.
Speaker 1: And this lost Byzantium, this lost Christian state is a
Speaker 1: theme again that is there also. I think this could
Speaker 1: go back to, you know, Arthur Arturian legends in Britain
Speaker 1: and British literature, and of course Us and Tolkien and
Speaker 1: others were members of the Inklings, and many of the
Speaker 1: Inklings also, as we said, worked in British intelligence. They
Speaker 1: were also linguists, they were also literary scholars. In fact,
Speaker 1: Tolkien translated one of the deuteroconomical texts for the Jerusalem Bible,
Speaker 1: which is a Roman Catholic translation, so he was also
Speaker 1: very familiar with the duteroconical text. And I've never seen
Speaker 1: anybody talk about the deuterocononical influence on the Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings, which I've noticed, and I will be discussing
Speaker 1: that when we get to the trilogy.
Speaker 2: But as we pop it off here with your boy Bilbo.
Speaker 1: And we'll do Silmarilli into so we'll get into some
Speaker 1: of that for you nerds. But Bilbo is a relative
Speaker 1: of the Tukes.
Speaker 2: He's half Tuk, and the Tukes are said to be
Speaker 2: the more.
Speaker 1: The less respectable of the Baggin's touch lineage. So he
Speaker 1: has in his Hobbit DNA a wild side, and that's
Speaker 1: what Gandolf arrives to appeal to, because we know Gandalf
Speaker 1: is going to kind of be the main instigator, the
Speaker 1: sort of handler, right the if we could think of
Speaker 1: a Henry Kissinger, a major player, but not an evil Kissinger,
Speaker 1: like a good Kissinger, is essentially what Gandolf is.
Speaker 2: But he does operate quite similar to some kind of
Speaker 2: an intelligence handler to the Dwarfs and to Bilbo. And
Speaker 2: like most.
Speaker 1: Literary works or the Hero's Journey, Bilbo is of course
Speaker 1: cowardly at first. He's very in love with his security
Speaker 1: and with his amenities and with his luxuries that he
Speaker 1: has in hobbiton in the Shire, and he's very cowardly, right,
Speaker 1: He's afraid. He doesn't want to have anything to do
Speaker 1: with adventures. He eschees any adventures.
Speaker 2: And the Dwarves arrived because.
Speaker 1: Of course Gandolf has arranged this scenario and he needs
Speaker 1: somebody who has the cunning and the archetypal structure of
Speaker 1: a Hobbits to engage in a subversion and sneaking around Smog.
Speaker 2: So he needs just like he will need Frodo and Samuiz.
Speaker 1: In The Lord of the Rings to eventually get into
Speaker 1: Mordor when Saron is distracted right, which is a kind
Speaker 1: of a espionage secret you know, deflection tactic, because Sarn
Speaker 1: is focused on the war. This will allow the unsuspecting
Speaker 1: Hobbits to make their way into Mortar to destroy the Ring.
Speaker 1: But here we have a similar situation where Bilbo is
Speaker 1: chosen by Gandalf because Gandalf knows as Bilbo's handler that
Speaker 1: a burglar such as Bilbo would be perfect for the job.
Speaker 2: The Dwarves I forgot. By the way, I forgot the
Speaker 2: song that they sing is actually the same song they
Speaker 2: sing in the movie.
Speaker 1: I'm not really going to be focusing a lot on
Speaker 1: the movie. Obviously the book is better than the movie.
Speaker 1: I don't think the Hobbit movies are terrible, but you know,
Speaker 1: they're not as interesting as the novel.
Speaker 2: But they did sing that song.
Speaker 1: I forget exactly what goes, but I thought that was
Speaker 1: kind of funny. There's quite a bit of actually of
Speaker 1: like spitting bars in this. I don't know if you noticed,
Speaker 1: but the goblins they spit bars, so they actually.
Speaker 2: Kind of rap, which is what I thought was kind
Speaker 2: of funny. They're like doing battle raps and disraps in
Speaker 2: the midst of the adventures.
Speaker 1: But the Dwarves are missing their homeland and they wish
Speaker 1: to have their gold in their homeland back. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of discussion as to whether Dwarves represent Jews. I
Speaker 1: think there's some possibility of this. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a one to one. I think that what Tolkien was doing,
Speaker 1: very similar to Lewis in the Space trilogy, was warning
Speaker 1: about the possibility of an international technocratic threat. That's one
Speaker 1: of the key prophetic elements that we'll especially see when
Speaker 1: we get to Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 2: And it's not just the all seeing eye sort of
Speaker 2: symbolism of Salaron. It's also the tech warnings. And in fact,
Speaker 2: I was surprised in returning to the Hobbit to see
Speaker 2: some of those tech warnings in the Hobbit. I mean
Speaker 2: I expected it and I remembered it from Lord of
Speaker 2: the Rings.
Speaker 1: With the genetic engineering of the Aricai and Soromon basically
Speaker 1: creates a sort of gunpowder.
Speaker 2: This kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: But I didn't recall that there's a specific discussion that
Speaker 1: Tolkien has of the goblins creating the weapons of mass destruction.
Speaker 1: He says, many of the implements that men use in
Speaker 1: war to kill mass numbers of people, he said, are
Speaker 1: Goblin inventions. So already in the prologue of the prequel,
Speaker 1: The Hobbit, we have again even the more esoteric, so
Speaker 1: to speak, themes of technology contrasted with nature and harmonizing
Speaker 1: with nature, that synthesis with nature that's at against the tech.
Speaker 1: And specifically he says about the Orcs, they really just
Speaker 1: use tech to dominate and to destroy nature, right, So
Speaker 1: there's no respect for the natural world.
Speaker 2: It's really just seen as a tool of dominance. And
Speaker 2: that would become very clear.
Speaker 1: When we get to, of course, the the traitorous figure
Speaker 1: of a Saramon.
Speaker 2: So Gandolf Leaves runs.
Speaker 1: Gandolf, as we said, is this sort of wise archetype
Speaker 1: of this sage. He's also a kind of a Kissinger,
Speaker 1: sort of an intelligence handler figure who has an immense
Speaker 1: amount of knowledge. But he's also a member of a
Speaker 1: secret order, and this comes up later on. We know
Speaker 1: that he's a member of the order of the Secret Fire.
Speaker 1: He's a keeper of the Flame of arn Ore, and
Speaker 1: Gandalf will be consistently associated with.
Speaker 2: What with fire.
Speaker 1: And this is important because the different wizard in this world,
Speaker 1: whether it's Ratigast or whether it's Saramon, or rather whether
Speaker 1: it's Gandolf right, they're elemental in their associations. Gandalf is
Speaker 1: associated with fire, the flame of Warner. They keep it
Speaker 1: the secret secret flame. Ratigas the Brown is associated with
Speaker 1: earth animals, et cetera. He speaks to them, hence the Brown.
Speaker 1: So you have Gandalf the White. He's also when Gandalf
Speaker 1: is sort of reborn as Gandalf the White, it's through
Speaker 1: the White Flame that he's reborn. Saramon is airror and breath.
Speaker 1: He engages in weather control. He builds towers up into
Speaker 1: the air to the sky, and he eventually wants to
Speaker 1: become Samon the mini colored right, so he wants to
Speaker 1: master all of the elements and have all the powers.
Speaker 1: He is very much an intellect, which again intellect is
Speaker 1: the higher the faculties again closer associated with air or mind.
Speaker 2: Voice.
Speaker 1: He uses a very hypnotic voice and magic power that
Speaker 1: he has through his words and so that's all sologain
Speaker 1: air and utilizes mind control, right in the case of
Speaker 1: when he mind controls the King of Rohan. So there
Speaker 1: are then these elemental associations that I think are necessary.
Speaker 1: And again this is not surprising because, as I said,
Speaker 1: one of the key elements here is Neoplatonism and the
Speaker 1: neoplatonic association that they're associated with, you know, classical sort
Speaker 1: of magical texts, and that's something that I don't hear
Speaker 1: anyone else talking about. Also, by the way, when we
Speaker 1: get into the Simmlarillion, we'll see the neoplatonic idea of
Speaker 1: the creation myth with the Valar and others. Right, that's
Speaker 1: also part of this neoplatonic structure that undergirds both the Space.
Speaker 2: Trilogy and Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: And perhaps you could argue as well Narnia, because of
Speaker 1: course Oslin sings reality into existence, and we'll see that
Speaker 1: with Illuvitar's creation of Middle Earth as well.
Speaker 2: Now, to get back to.
Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings, the Dwarves are seeking their homeland,
Speaker 1: so I think there is probably an analogy again thinking
Speaker 1: of World War two right to some elements of the
Speaker 1: history of the Jews. I don't think that Tolkien is
Speaker 1: intentionally trying to be some sort of a Zionists think.
Speaker 1: More so, he's concerned with the fact that the future
Speaker 1: technocratic antichrist sort of power that would rise in the world.
Speaker 1: And again Lewis is making this point with Volume three
Speaker 1: of the Space Trilogy is something that would be against
Speaker 1: all of the race, is playing them against one another,
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what we see Suron and Saramon doing so.
Speaker 1: The dwarves are eager to get back to their homeland.
Speaker 1: They're very interested in jewels and gold, again suggesting certain
Speaker 1: Middle Eastern peoples. We have a introduction of the dragon,
Speaker 1: which is the archetype begin from scripture of the Serpent
Speaker 1: that invades Eden. In the story, of course, we know
Speaker 1: eventually the Hobbit is a kind of a shame of
Speaker 1: the shot is a kind of Eden, and it eventually
Speaker 1: is threatened by the evil that's rising and mort or
Speaker 1: the Sorcerer the necro answer, who I think we will
Speaker 1: discover is Suron. But here the dragon is immediately associated
Speaker 1: with He devours men and dwarfs right. The dragon is
Speaker 1: essentially a completely malevolent force with no goodwill or intentions,
Speaker 1: and is a pure force of destruction. But it's also
Speaker 1: connected with the association that it has to gold, because
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, dragons have to sort of uh, you know,
Speaker 1: make they crib and a bunch of gold, right, gold
Speaker 1: all over my crib, Gold.
Speaker 2: All over my bed, Isn't that right, Jamie? And so.
Speaker 1: The story here then is how to get back into
Speaker 1: the mountain. We have this prophecy, as we'll learn later,
Speaker 1: of the return of the King of Foreign Oakenshield with
Speaker 1: the return of the King and of the Mountain, mirroring
Speaker 1: again the return of the King of Aragorn at the
Speaker 1: end of The Lord of the Rings. So again there's
Speaker 1: a lot of parallels to the later trilogy.
Speaker 2: But again remember Tolkien was himself intelligence.
Speaker 1: He was for two years working in intelligence, espionage cryptography
Speaker 1: at Bletchley Park. And I think that's a key element
Speaker 1: that many people have not understood about this trilogy or
Speaker 1: about the books, because that would obviously influence what he's doing.
Speaker 1: That's why he's so interested in not just language and linguistics,
Speaker 1: but symbology and symbolism, ruins, et cetera, and history itself,
Speaker 1: Nordic history.
Speaker 2: Ancient Slavonic myths, ancient.
Speaker 1: Nordic tales, all of that plays a role in influencing
Speaker 1: this series. So as they embark on their journey, we
Speaker 1: find them in engaging in the standard sort of fantasy
Speaker 1: adventure stuff that you would expect a lot of this,
Speaker 1: by the way, it comes out of mythology too. There's
Speaker 1: references to trolls the elves. But one thing I thought
Speaker 1: that was interesting was as they embark on the journey
Speaker 1: and they engage in these sort it's very similar to Odysseus, right,
Speaker 1: So when Odysseus is on his journey, he's constantly sort
Speaker 1: of tempted with giants and battling them, or when he's
Speaker 1: you know, tempted by the sirens to be you know,
Speaker 1: distracted from his course.
Speaker 2: So quite a few elements of classical.
Speaker 1: Literature kind of pop pop up here, whether it's Virgil
Speaker 1: or whether it's Homer. You can see a lot of
Speaker 1: parallels to ancient Western literature as well. But the elves
Speaker 1: are also engaged in, if you didn't catch it, a
Speaker 1: vast intelligence network. In fact, it's even explained that the
Speaker 1: elves have intelligence before anyone else. They know everything that's
Speaker 1: going on. They even sing songs about Bilbo on his journey,
Speaker 1: and Bilbo doesn't even know how they knew this, presumably
Speaker 1: maybe through Gandalf, but again, they know everything that's going on.
Speaker 1: They don't exactly know when they get to the woodland elves,
Speaker 1: but the earlier elves that they meet before when they
Speaker 1: go to Rivendel, right, the el Ron and his elves
Speaker 1: are singing songs about them, and they have the intelligence
Speaker 1: necessary to decode the map.
Speaker 2: That is a map drawn up by Thorn's relatives.
Speaker 1: And l Rond is also again a kind of wise sage,
Speaker 1: wise man handler. He's spoken of as knowing extensively various languages, symbols, runes.
Speaker 2: Et cetera. So very much like Tolkien himself.
Speaker 1: I think Tolkien saw himself as an el Rond or
Speaker 1: as a kind of a Gandolf character, again being a
Speaker 1: master linguist, being a translator and working for British intelligence
Speaker 1: at Bletchley Park.
Speaker 2: So also interesting.
Speaker 1: Is times, dates and seasons that come into play when
Speaker 1: they mentioned during's day. You know, this is a world
Speaker 1: where there are ritual holidays, and those ritual holidays are
Speaker 1: connected to the sun and the moon, the signs, and
Speaker 1: the seasons. This is obviously part of liturgy because in
Speaker 1: Genesis we have the statement that God set the luminaries
Speaker 1: in the sky for times and seasons. So in a way,
Speaker 1: the planets and the celestial spheres are like a giant clock,
Speaker 1: and so the whole universe is sort of a clock
Speaker 1: that at certain conjunctions has a religious connotation with it.
Speaker 1: In terms of the religious calendar and the Orthodox Church,
Speaker 1: we have the Orthodox Church calendar. Of course, Tolkien himself,
Speaker 1: being a traditional Catholic who was a big fan of
Speaker 1: the Latin Mass, he also understood this same type of
Speaker 1: a world view. The reality and life is liturgical, and
Speaker 1: that's why Duran's Day is really important, because there's a
Speaker 1: conjunction that's going to occur between the sun and the
Speaker 1: moon at the same time it said, and there will
Speaker 1: be a thrush who is you know, knocking his acorns
Speaker 1: or whatever, And that's a sign that it's an opening
Speaker 1: for this doorway. At other times it doesn't open. We
Speaker 1: also find them encountering rock giants or titans. This could
Speaker 1: have a reference to Cabbalistic mythology. Of course, we have
Speaker 1: the character Gollum himself could also have some degree of Cobbalistic.
Speaker 2: Reference or influence.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that in the story the name
Speaker 1: qualam is because he sort of needs to clear his throat.
Speaker 1: Let me clear my throat, right, But it's also could
Speaker 1: be a double reference to the Jewish medieval myth of
Speaker 1: the Gollum, which is the mind controlled entity that is
Speaker 1: used by the sorcerer or the wizard to do his bidding.
Speaker 1: And that makes sense too because if you think about it,
Speaker 1: really he Gollum is essentially a multiple personality, right. He's possessed.
Speaker 1: He has a split personality. He's always talking to himself,
Speaker 1: talking to the precious. He has this dark, demonic side,
Speaker 1: and he has this sort of normal, almost remnant of
Speaker 1: who he really was before he became this sort of
Speaker 1: goblin creature.
Speaker 2: But again, Gollum is MPD D I D.
Speaker 1: And there's something else again that I'm gonna I will
Speaker 1: bring up when we get to you know, Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings and what's what's the name is it? I'm
Speaker 1: threw wheel, which is the sword that has to be
Speaker 1: put back together again. That's that exists in like you know,
Speaker 1: classic mythology and that kind of stuff ar thory in
Speaker 1: mythology with the Lady the Lake, but the Titans again
Speaker 1: out of mythology, the magical swords and objects that are necessary.
Speaker 1: We think about this as sort of crazy in the
Speaker 1: modern world, but Orthodox Church we still think this way.
Speaker 1: We still think in this pre modern way because we
Speaker 1: think of objects like relics, holy objects, icons, et cetera.
Speaker 2: We still think in this way. In our church. We
Speaker 2: still think in a liturgical way. And the Lord of
Speaker 2: the rings world, Middle.
Speaker 1: Earth resonates with us because it is a universe re
Speaker 1: impregnated with meaning and mystery and magic, so to speak.
Speaker 2: And by magic I just mean simply the spiritual world.
Speaker 1: And when we eventually gets to under the mountain on
Speaker 1: this journey, and you know, Bilbo is separated from the
Speaker 1: rest of the of the crew when they're battling the goblins,
Speaker 1: we have that statement that goblins no technology, a Tolkien says,
Speaker 1: and they created the machinery that the humans use nowadays
Speaker 1: to kill at a mass scale. It's almost like Tolkien
Speaker 1: perhaps believes that the technology that we have perhaps comes
Speaker 1: from the demonic world. It's an influence that we got
Speaker 1: from the demonic world. And this does parallel with Genesis six.
Speaker 1: Right now, keep in mind, we had just seen him
Speaker 1: talking about the Titans Rock Giants having the sort of
Speaker 1: battle when the Hobbits or Exhumei when Bilbo and the
Speaker 1: dwarves are on their journey and they have to take
Speaker 1: a different path through the mountain, and then it moves
Speaker 1: from the Titans to immediately discussing the goblins that know
Speaker 1: technology and helped to create the implements of war human WMDs.
Speaker 1: What a wild statement again, as if the technology that
Speaker 1: we have comes from this ancient almost prediluvian world before
Speaker 1: the flood world.
Speaker 2: Perhaps it was an association.
Speaker 1: With Tolkien and the pre Deluvian and you know, Ananaki
Speaker 1: Nephelin type of world where we had things like Titans,
Speaker 1: which by the way, the deuter canonical text mentioned about
Speaker 1: four or five times actual references to the.
Speaker 2: Titans or the Giants.
Speaker 1: So the Deutero canon actually confirms that Genesis six is
Speaker 1: about humans and angels creating some strange race, which again
Speaker 1: parallels again because the Orocai are an abominable, interspliced genetic
Speaker 1: experiment that are creative. But as we said, Gollum is
Speaker 1: essentially possessed because he's addicted to the Ring, and the
Speaker 1: Ring recalls, as we know, the Ring of Geige's which
Speaker 1: is book two of Plato's Republic, and this is a
Speaker 1: story that's told in order to introduce the idea that
Speaker 1: really having power is destructive unless you have virtue or
Speaker 1: you have limits on that power. Would be a way
Speaker 1: to act with that power in a virtuous or a
Speaker 1: good way, versus using your power in some nefarious, villainous way.
Speaker 1: And so in the story of the Ring of Guigee's
Speaker 1: if the guy has the ability to be invisible while
Speaker 1: he goes and he bangs the queen and kills the king, right,
Speaker 1: and so the point is that without virtue, raw power
Speaker 1: like that will rot the soul. But also the Ring
Speaker 1: of Power is symbolic in many other ways, and we'll
Speaker 1: get into more of that when we get into the
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings, where the focus turns to the
Speaker 1: Ring itself as the sort of it's sort of the
Speaker 1: silent antagonist of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. But
Speaker 1: it's also three sixty, right, So the the Ring is
Speaker 1: something that's three to sixty and it's all directions. It's
Speaker 1: not four directions, it's every direction. So in every direction,
Speaker 1: the Ring represents total dominance of time and space.
Speaker 2: And this, I think is.
Speaker 1: Even referenced obliquely in the beginning of the Silmarillion. We'll
Speaker 1: get to all that later, but there is a pull
Speaker 1: again not just from ancient classical texts of the West
Speaker 1: like Homer, but also from Plato's Republic again, which tells
Speaker 1: us that it is neoplatonic influence as well. He wouldn't
Speaker 1: be pulling from the Republic if there weren't also perhaps
Speaker 1: neoplatonic influence when we get to Elluvatar creating and the blar. Now,
Speaker 1: magical technology is what we're talking about here. So the
Speaker 1: Ring has ability to also sort of transcend time and space.
Speaker 1: You become invisible, and we'll know we'll find out later
Speaker 1: that it has other powers associated with Sarn. But just
Speaker 1: like the Palaeer Stones Petertioll's Pallaeer, there is the idea
Speaker 1: of espionage and spying and perhaps the elves, if I recall,
Speaker 1: I think the elves have a relationship to the Palanteer Stones,
Speaker 1: and I know the elves have a relationship to the
Speaker 1: rings too, But ultimately you could say a magical technology
Speaker 1: for espionage to rule Middle Earth.
Speaker 2: So it's exactly like the world that we live in today.
Speaker 1: Again, super prophetic, prophetic, and I think Tolkien and Lewis
Speaker 1: again see as Lewis's based Trilogy, Volume three. They knew
Speaker 1: about the plan to use technology influenced by demonic powers
Speaker 1: to create a technocratic total surveillance state, to enslave the
Speaker 1: earth and to deepop and I think both Tolkien and
Speaker 1: Lewis are warning about that. That's what's so amazing about
Speaker 1: these prophetic literary works. We also have some older references
Speaker 1: to thinking of the world, not just in terms of
Speaker 1: by the way I mentioned there's a magic sword. Obviously,
Speaker 1: we have Glamdring and or Chris, the Goblin cleavers, Beat
Speaker 1: and Biter, and they're magical Elvin's swords. If you think
Speaker 1: about it, you mean, I know this. There's actually a
Speaker 1: reference to magic sword and the Maccabees. We'll talk about
Speaker 1: that when we get to the Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: But again, Dudo kanonical influence that I've never heard anybody
Speaker 1: talk about oliphants also coming out of the Deutero canon,
Speaker 1: time and space being transcendent with tech, but also references
Speaker 1: to races, the races of Middle Earth, including the dwarfs,
Speaker 1: the elves, the men, races of abominable things or things
Speaker 1: that shouldn't exist, like the Rocai, the Goblins, and the orcs.
Speaker 1: Clearly they have a reference to the demonic. I think
Speaker 1: they absolutely represent demonic entities. But we also have amongst
Speaker 1: the natural world the animal races or the species. Right
Speaker 1: the noble race of the Eagles of the Mountains is
Speaker 1: led by the Lord of the Eagles. Bayorn, is this
Speaker 1: sort of pre modern sort of skin changer, skin walker
Speaker 1: type of character who is not really a magical being
Speaker 1: so to speak. He's more of a natural being who
Speaker 1: has a of a natural magic so to speak. He's
Speaker 1: a force of nature, perhaps a Lord of the Bears
Speaker 1: or something like this, but he knows and speaks the
Speaker 1: tongue of bears. This is a kin almost to Narnia,
Speaker 1: where the animals have a language as well, and he
Speaker 1: comes from a time quote before the Giants or before
Speaker 1: the Titans, so he's sort of a preternatural figure, perhaps
Speaker 1: like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. We'll get to that debate
Speaker 1: later on. But he does speak the tongue of bears,
Speaker 1: which is fascinating because a recent Japanese spurg scientist Dude,
Speaker 1: did multiple years of research on birds and is basically
Speaker 1: proven that birds have a language and they have actually
Speaker 1: different specific sounds like fifteen to twenty different sounds for
Speaker 1: specific things like warning of a snake or warning.
Speaker 2: Of this other predator or food.
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating thesis that he's presented in a series
Speaker 1: of videos.
Speaker 2: I'll try to remember to link that below.
Speaker 1: But I thought that was neat because, well, that's kind
Speaker 1: of what Tolkien and Lewis were saying, is it's interest
Speaker 1: that the animals have a language. Perhaps there's mysteries of
Speaker 1: nature the Tolkien and Lewis ners that we haven't even
Speaker 1: understood yet, right that we have that we're just now
Speaker 1: beginning to perhaps discover. But Bayron is also immediately associated
Speaker 1: with the bear. He is a bearer man or instead
Speaker 1: of a werewolf, he's kind of a bear wolf perhaps
Speaker 1: man bear pig. And he keeps bees, which is fascinating
Speaker 1: because he's again one of these creatures that helps them
Speaker 1: on their journey, who's immediately associated and connected to nature.
Speaker 1: And you get this theme throughout both Narnia and Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings that there's a battle between what's natural
Speaker 1: to man and the natural world and man's synthesis and harmony,
Speaker 1: which was originally there in Eden even to not eat
Speaker 1: the animals before the fall. Right now, that relationship is
Speaker 1: allowed by God after the fall for human sustenance in
Speaker 1: our sort of fallen biological but originally death was not
Speaker 1: even natural or needed for the animal world. And so
Speaker 1: there is this return to Eden theme that's constant throughout,
Speaker 1: and the rightful rulership amongst man, just like amongst the
Speaker 1: animal kingdom.
Speaker 2: The animals have.
Speaker 1: A Lord of the Eagles, right, a Lord of the
Speaker 1: Bearers or whatever. Likewise, where's the king of the men. Well,
Speaker 1: we know that Christ is of course prophet, priest and king,
Speaker 1: and certainly that would be part of Lewis's symbology. But
Speaker 1: of course Aragorn er Strider is the rightful king by
Speaker 1: the time of the Lord of the Rings. But even
Speaker 1: here we have a rightful king in Thorn Oakenshield, who
Speaker 1: will return to be the king under the mountain. Bajorn
Speaker 1: again is a character I think presaging a kind of
Speaker 1: Tom Bombadil, right, And this is everybody's favorite mysterious character
Speaker 1: in Lord of the Rings. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. What
Speaker 1: are they? Who they represent? We'll get to that one
Speaker 1: we get to the Lord of the Rings. But progressing,
Speaker 1: as we said, we talked about the elemental wizards, Gandalf
Speaker 1: representing fire, the flame of Ron or the keeper of
Speaker 1: the Secret Fire, Ratagas being the wizard associated with earth
Speaker 1: and animals, Samon being air. So you have earth, fire, air,
Speaker 1: and then water, which is fascinating because there are references
Speaker 1: to the blue wizards, so this lets us know that
Speaker 1: he is intentionally doing the fourfold elemental structure, and then
Speaker 1: perhaps also the ether or something maybe that's Soromon is
Speaker 1: something like that as well, or Saron, who knows. But
Speaker 1: the Blue Wizards, we don't know a lot about them.
Speaker 1: They were just kind of referenced in passing Alatar and Palando.
Speaker 1: They are the unknown wizards of the East, and they
Speaker 1: are then.
Speaker 2: Blue associated with water. So that's the four elements right there.
Speaker 1: And we begin in the first half to have a
Speaker 1: reference to the necromancer right in the south and his
Speaker 1: Dark Tower. So we have at this point the idea
Speaker 1: that there are good towers. There is originally the Tower
Speaker 1: of Sarromon Gondor has its towers, et cetera, which is
Speaker 1: that as kind of Byzantium, but we also have a
Speaker 1: inversion of that, which is the Dark Tower, and that
Speaker 1: of course would definitely influence Stephen King's Dark Tower series.
Speaker 2: Stephen King was open about that.
Speaker 1: He said, when I wrote A Gunslinger, it was you
Speaker 1: know westerns I liked, and Lord of the Rings, well,
Speaker 1: the towers are inversions of one another, right, and so
Speaker 1: likewise you have the Tree, the White Tree of Gondor.
Speaker 1: And originally there was going to be in the Satanic
Speaker 1: Cult episode that he never wrote the New Shadow, there
Speaker 1: was going to be a dark tree of evil, right,
Speaker 1: or perhaps referencing the Tree.
Speaker 2: Of an Aledge good and evil, something like that.
Speaker 1: But he said that it was going to be an
Speaker 1: evil tree in the Hearts of men. So perhaps not
Speaker 1: even necessarily a literal tree, we don't know, but that's
Speaker 1: what's in the background, of course, in Lewis's or Shumi
Speaker 1: and Tolkien's mind here. So the other thing I thought
Speaker 1: was interesting too is, as you might imagine, we're going
Speaker 1: to see a obvious progress, not just in the humility
Speaker 1: of the characters, right, because one of the key points
Speaker 1: of Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit is that
Speaker 1: humility is really what wins against evil. Evil has no humility.
Speaker 1: Satan his followers their chief sin is and begins in pride,
Speaker 1: and the humble Hobbit is a being that you are
Speaker 1: absolutely unsuspecting, right, you would never expect that this sort
Speaker 1: of cowardly, you know, luxury loving creature would venture all
Speaker 1: the way into smogs, you know, crib or all the
Speaker 1: way into mortar.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly the genius.
Speaker 1: Of Gandal's plans in both stories, both adventures, and at
Speaker 1: the same time, it's a learning curve, an ascetic struggle
Speaker 1: for Bilbo and for Frodo and Sam as they go
Speaker 1: on this asthetic journey, because throughout this journey they are
Speaker 1: craving the amenities of the shire, right, second breakfast, elevensies,
Speaker 1: they want their dainties, their treats, right, they want their
Speaker 1: pipe weed, they want their warm bed, and they're constantly
Speaker 1: going through the struggle of overcoming the passions. And in fact,
Speaker 1: people were telling me, as I mentioned I was going
Speaker 1: to do this that a lot of Orthodox priests and
Speaker 1: people have recommended reading Lord of the Rings throughout Lent
Speaker 1: because you kind of go on that journey with Bilbo,
Speaker 1: with Frodo and Sam. And I remember the first time
Speaker 1: I've read Lord of the Rings, and you know, when
Speaker 1: they're just struggling through the marshes and they're so miserable.
Speaker 2: And wet and hungry.
Speaker 1: You could almost feel that, you know, back when I
Speaker 1: read that, when I was in you know, six or
Speaker 1: seventh grade, I was just like.
Speaker 2: Immersed in that.
Speaker 1: And I think that's telling because you never forget that imagery,
Speaker 1: and just like you never forget when the Ring raids
Speaker 1: show up, right. It's just powerful, creepy imagery when you're
Speaker 1: a kid reading that, and then now as you're in
Speaker 1: adult to reflect on it, and you see even in
Speaker 1: your lifetime as a kind of a journey. Think about
Speaker 1: your lifetime like Bilbo or Frodo's journey right towards the end,
Speaker 1: towards the final battle with death, the final confrontation, and
Speaker 1: overcoming the passions, because the Ring, as you know, essentially
Speaker 1: excites all of those passions selfishness, hatred, anger, and the
Speaker 1: more that you use it, the more.
Speaker 2: It takes you over.
Speaker 1: Just like galum, so will Bilbo Begalam, will Frodo Begalam, etcetera. Right,
Speaker 1: they have to overcome that temptation to pleasure and to
Speaker 1: worship and love the self. And that's really what Souron
Speaker 1: is sort of offering here. Now this concludes the first
Speaker 1: half of the Hobbit. There's a lot more to say
Speaker 1: about the Hobbit. We're going to do part two very soon.
Speaker 1: I'm almost done with it. We have just a couple
Speaker 1: more hours left as we write it and listen to
Speaker 1: it on the road. Yes, I've read it. I read
Speaker 1: it twice when I was a kid, so I don't
Speaker 1: feel like I'm cheating listening to it when we're driving
Speaker 1: for eight hours a day.
Speaker 2: And so yes, we will get to more of this,
Speaker 2: and then we will get deep.
Speaker 1: Into the lore of this big bad baby. This bohemos here,
Speaker 1: which is probably the best version that I've seen.
Speaker 2: I also have.
Speaker 1: I have I think four different versions. This one I
Speaker 1: like a lot because it has all the Alan Lee
Speaker 1: art in it. But also there are other, you know,
Speaker 1: good versions that I think come from the What's His
Speaker 1: Christopher his Son's editions, et cetera. So it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a fun series. This is the kicking it off, first
Speaker 1: half of the Hobbit. Hopefully you enjoyed this. I will
Speaker 1: also bring on people like Tim Gordon. Tim Gordon, for example,
Speaker 1: has done courses where he teaches symbology in the Lord.
Speaker 2: Of the Rings.
Speaker 1: He has a lot of interesting Christian symbology that he
Speaker 1: brings in Prophet, priest and King play a role in
Speaker 1: his analysis, so we're gonna hear his take on it.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be, I think, a good deep dive series.
Speaker 1: And I want you guys also underneath to comment on
Speaker 1: things that I missed, because I know a lot of
Speaker 1: you guys are nerd of the Rings people. A lot
Speaker 1: of you guys have read it many times. You've probably
Speaker 1: read more than me on this, so fill me in
Speaker 1: on details that I'm not aware of other connections and associations.
Speaker 1: I know that even the Elvin lore with some of
Speaker 1: y'all Chad nerds goes super deep. Some of y'all nerds
Speaker 1: can even freaking speak Elvis. Probably all I can do
Speaker 1: is the taking the Horbits, Tuie and God, which is
Speaker 1: a pretty good legalist, I would say. Otherwise, hit like
Speaker 1: and share. Tell me what I missed below, and remember
Speaker 1: to head on over.
Speaker 2: To Chalk dot com. Choq dot com the best and
Speaker 2: supplementation on the Internet. Chalk dot com. Use a promo
Speaker 2: COJ sixty to get sixty.
Speaker 1: Percent off all those great Chalk products and sign up
Speaker 1: for that subscription. It's a great discount. You can get
Speaker 1: the ton kettleik coming on the regular, but listen. You
Speaker 1: can unsubscribe at anytime. Also, if you like this symbolic analysis,
Speaker 1: you can get at the shop at Jasonallsis dot com
Speaker 1: signed copies of Ester Hollywood one, two and three, one
Speaker 1: thousand plus pages on film symbolism, literary symbolism, espionage, all
Speaker 1: that tied into your
Speaker 2: Favorite movies, and they're all signed copies.