1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:01,679 Speaker 2: All right, what's up. 2 00:00:01,679 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: We're on the road, and not Cormack McCarthy's the road. 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,919 We will not be chomping on anybody's thighs or butts. 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:11,759 Speaker 2: We are on the road. 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: And I thought it's perfect timing to return to the 6 00:00:16,519 --> 00:00:18,839 Lord of the Rings. I've not read The Hobbit or 7 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:21,480 The Lord of the Rings in many, many years. Of 8 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,039 course they read it, I think a couple times when 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,320 I was in junior high and high school, and. 10 00:00:27,559 --> 00:00:31,039 Speaker 2: Now is the perfect time to return to it, just because. 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: And I also realized that a lot of the analyzes 12 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,240 that are out there, they're really good. There are plenty 13 00:00:37,359 --> 00:00:40,399 that focus on this or that element, this or that, 14 00:00:41,359 --> 00:00:44,359 you know, layer or level of analysis, but not many 15 00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:50,320 people have done a significant deep dive covering all of 16 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:56,119 the influences, the layers, the levels, and even the intelligence 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,000 domain that I think is clearly there to influence Tolkien. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,439 And we're going to talk about all that. This is 19 00:01:01,439 --> 00:01:03,520 probably going to be a several part series. It won't 20 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,359 be just one, it's going to be multiple parts. 21 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: So we're going to start with the first half of 22 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:10,680 the Hobbits today. 23 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: So we've gotten through actually more than the first half 24 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,959 of this will be a Part one and a part too, 25 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,280 So if you want to get access to the full 26 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,480 video here, you'll want to subscribe to Jay's analysis and 27 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,000 head on over to the website or here for members 28 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,159 on YouTube and choose the four ninety five option or 29 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,239 the sixty dollars a year option to get access to 30 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,480 the full talks. Of course, I am still going to 31 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,359 do the Old Boys Part two very soon. That will 32 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,400 be in the midst of this ongoing series. But we 33 00:01:39,439 --> 00:01:42,319 have a long journey ahead of us. We have our 34 00:01:42,359 --> 00:01:45,640 own little journey to Mordor as we go to Vegas 35 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,359 in LA for host of podcasts, And so what. 36 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 2: Better ascetic struggle than. 37 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings in the Hobbit. Now, a 38 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:00,120 lot of people don't know, as we said that the 39 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,879 Hobbit is kind of a little many Lord of the Rings. 40 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,480 I've noticed that it's basically the same patterns, the same structure, 41 00:02:08,319 --> 00:02:10,479 And of course it was written for his children. 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: So Tolkien wrote that for his. 43 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: Kids, and then as they got older they would be 44 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,759 a little more able to digest the intense complexities of 45 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,560 the Lord of the Rings. But the Hobbit was a 46 00:02:24,599 --> 00:02:27,840 precursor to that kind of a prologue. You could say, 47 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,159 but how's not just a lot of the same themes 48 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,120 kind of in a shorter mini version. It also has 49 00:02:33,159 --> 00:02:36,599 a lot of different layers and symbolic structures that again 50 00:02:36,599 --> 00:02:39,439 I think most people are not aware of. A key 51 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,120 element to that is integral to my thesis is a 52 00:02:43,159 --> 00:02:48,120 recent declassification that occurred amongst British government and British Intelligence that, 53 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:54,039 of course, you got it. Tolkien was an intelligence operative 54 00:02:54,319 --> 00:02:55,360 at least to some degree. 55 00:02:55,439 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: For a couple of years. 56 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,719 Speaker 1: He worked at Bletchley Park for British Intelligence, which was 57 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:05,960 the Enigma machine slash Alan Turing area of cryptography. So 58 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:13,520 they were engaged in decoding World War two cryptographic communications 59 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,080 by the tiny mustache man people and others. So I 60 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,120 think that's a key component to where we can see 61 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,360 that World War two tiny mustache man stuff plays a role. 62 00:03:23,439 --> 00:03:26,280 It is not all about that. People have obviously different theories. 63 00:03:26,319 --> 00:03:29,599 They think it's about money in the banking structure. All 64 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,479 of those things can be the case. And when we 65 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,800 read this in tandem with other Inklings writings which. 66 00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:37,039 Speaker 2: We've covered, such as C. S. 67 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,319 Speaker 1: Lewis's famous Space trilogy, we know that as we progress 68 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,680 through one two and through the Space Trilogy. We covered 69 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,520 that very in depth, maybe three years ago. One of 70 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,479 those videos actually got anywhere. I think it was a 71 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,639 quarter million, maybe even up to half a million, between 72 00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:57,479 all the different outlets of views between Lord Voldemort and 73 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,599 the Fourth Hour when we did that bunch of other 74 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,960 outlets like acts. So in that we noticed that there's 75 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,159 a specific reference in the appendix to Volume one of 76 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:14,120 the Space Trilogy where Lewis notes that Professor Ransom is 77 00:04:14,159 --> 00:04:19,800 basically Tolkien. And in that appendix it discusses Tolkien discovering 78 00:04:19,879 --> 00:04:23,040 some neoplatonic medieval texts that he thought were sort of 79 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:29,600 crucial to interpreting the world and reality and the Grand narrative. 80 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:31,959 And so The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings 81 00:04:32,079 --> 00:04:35,079 are kind of like Lewis's works, And I know there's 82 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,079 a difference between them. I've interviewed my godfather, Dean Arnold 83 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,920 on some of their disagreements over literature. 84 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: But both of those writers. 85 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: Are trying to re interject a transcendent mythological worldview. And 86 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,879 I don't be mean by mythology fake, I mean true myth, 87 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,720 right myth containing truth and meaning, and that reality is 88 00:04:53,759 --> 00:04:59,319 no longer abstracted scientific data as the Enlightenment and Darwinian 89 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,839 ethos kind of scientific revolution gave the world. Now the 90 00:05:03,879 --> 00:05:09,480 world would be re interjected with meaning, and so Space Trilogy, Narnia, 91 00:05:09,519 --> 00:05:12,120 and all of the canon of Tolkien's Lord of the 92 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,279 Rings Silmarillion included, they are an attempt to give a 93 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,279 grand narrative and reintroduce meaning, especially in a post. 94 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: World War one and World War two world. So there's 95 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:23,040 a lot of. 96 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: Negative attitudes, a lot of black pilling going on after 97 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:29,399 World War One and. 98 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: World War Two. 99 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:34,439 Speaker 1: And one thing that both writers have as a commonality 100 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,319 is the return of Christian monarchy, the Christian king, the 101 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:41,600 return of the king. Same theme in the Space Trilogy 102 00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:44,480 when Merlin comes back, he says, let's get the King 103 00:05:44,519 --> 00:05:45,040 of England. 104 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: He'll help us. 105 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: Out, and they're all like, uh No, that dude ain't 106 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:51,839 gonna help you at all. He's part of the bad guys, 107 00:05:51,879 --> 00:05:55,000 He's part of Tavistok. And that's essentially what's going on 108 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,079 in part three of the Space Trilogy. So we've covered 109 00:05:58,079 --> 00:06:00,800 all that though, but that's a key window into the 110 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:04,600 fact that I think both writers were giving their insight 111 00:06:04,759 --> 00:06:08,800 and their wisdom about the twentieth century, and the dangers 112 00:06:09,079 --> 00:06:13,480 not just on a technological, spiritual or a technological worldly level, 113 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,160 but also on a global level in terms of the 114 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:21,519 possibility of total information awareness, all seeing eye technology. That's 115 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,480 exactly what's going on with Mordor and the Eye of Salron. 116 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: Of course we'll get to that later on. That's not 117 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:29,560 the subject really of the. 118 00:06:29,519 --> 00:06:33,519 Speaker 1: Hobbit, but you do have some of the classic literary 119 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,680 tropes and archetypes, like the dragon. The dragon basically feeding 120 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,040 off of human desires and greed. We know that, of 121 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,759 course Thorin is tempted with greed. And we'll talk about 122 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,920 the races of Middle Earth and all that, but really 123 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,240 the Hobbit, I think assess the stage for the introduction 124 00:06:52,399 --> 00:06:57,839 to Middle Earth and the idea of bringing back good 125 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,560 and evil, that all of the races really have a 126 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,519 common enemy, which is a spiritual enemy, something beyond merely 127 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:08,399 political factions or racial factions and tentions. Not that those 128 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:13,160 things don't exist, but they're not the real sort of concern. 129 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:17,160 Another thing that I think is crucial to understand is the. 130 00:07:19,199 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: Lost Work that. 131 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,319 Speaker 1: Was going to be a sequel that Tolkien was going 132 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,959 to do, which was called The new Shadow, and he 133 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,680 mentions this in a couple of his letters, and he 134 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,319 says that really the sequel to the Lord of the 135 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:32,920 Rings was supposed to be, in his own words, a 136 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,279 future Gondor about one hundred years after the time of Aragorn, 137 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,439 where a dark Orc Satanic cult, and he calls it 138 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,839 a secret Satanist religion had taken over, using secret societies 139 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:47,800 to subvert Gondor. And of course there's a lot of 140 00:07:48,079 --> 00:07:51,879 parallels between Gondor and Byzantium, and there's a lot of 141 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,720 parallels between Numanor and Atlantis, and we'll get to all 142 00:07:54,759 --> 00:07:56,000 that when we get to Lord of the Rings. But 143 00:07:56,959 --> 00:07:58,959 the idea was that in the Fourth Age there would 144 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,240 be the children of Arwin and Aragorn. They would be 145 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:09,120 confronting some new rising evil where the Orcs would have 146 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,920 a secret Satanic society seeking to overthrow the legitimate rulers 147 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:18,800 of Gondor, which will be the seat of Airyworn. And 148 00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:24,879 that again speaks to the loss of Christian government, Christian monarchy, 149 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,600 Christian imperium, which was the norm throughout the Middle Ages 150 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:32,039 East and West, the Byzantine Empire or the Eastern Roman 151 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,279 Catholic Empire, not Roman Catholic in the papal sense, but 152 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:39,200 Roman in the ROMIOI sense Catholic and the universal faith 153 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:42,279 confession sense, which is what of course Orthodox Christians are. 154 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:48,960 And this lost Byzantium, this lost Christian state is a 155 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,159 theme again that is there also. I think this could 156 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,320 go back to, you know, Arthur Arturian legends in Britain 157 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,039 and British literature, and of course Us and Tolkien and 158 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,399 others were members of the Inklings, and many of the 159 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:06,159 Inklings also, as we said, worked in British intelligence. They 160 00:09:06,159 --> 00:09:10,440 were also linguists, they were also literary scholars. In fact, 161 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,000 Tolkien translated one of the deuteroconomical texts for the Jerusalem Bible, 162 00:09:15,039 --> 00:09:17,759 which is a Roman Catholic translation, so he was also 163 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,000 very familiar with the duteroconical text. And I've never seen 164 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,240 anybody talk about the deuterocononical influence on the Lord of 165 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,360 the Rings, which I've noticed, and I will be discussing 166 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,240 that when we get to the trilogy. 167 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: But as we pop it off here with your boy Bilbo. 168 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: And we'll do Silmarilli into so we'll get into some 169 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:48,039 of that for you nerds. But Bilbo is a relative 170 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:48,720 of the Tukes. 171 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,039 Speaker 2: He's half Tuk, and the Tukes are said to be 172 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:52,519 the more. 173 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: The less respectable of the Baggin's touch lineage. So he 174 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,720 has in his Hobbit DNA a wild side, and that's 175 00:10:04,759 --> 00:10:08,600 what Gandolf arrives to appeal to, because we know Gandalf 176 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,559 is going to kind of be the main instigator, the 177 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,919 sort of handler, right the if we could think of 178 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,559 a Henry Kissinger, a major player, but not an evil Kissinger, 179 00:10:18,639 --> 00:10:21,600 like a good Kissinger, is essentially what Gandolf is. 180 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,759 Speaker 2: But he does operate quite similar to some kind of 181 00:10:25,759 --> 00:10:31,480 an intelligence handler to the Dwarfs and to Bilbo. And 182 00:10:32,279 --> 00:10:33,200 like most. 183 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,639 Speaker 1: Literary works or the Hero's Journey, Bilbo is of course 184 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:42,240 cowardly at first. He's very in love with his security 185 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,039 and with his amenities and with his luxuries that he 186 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,279 has in hobbiton in the Shire, and he's very cowardly, right, 187 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,279 He's afraid. He doesn't want to have anything to do 188 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,159 with adventures. He eschees any adventures. 189 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,639 Speaker 2: And the Dwarves arrived because. 190 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: Of course Gandolf has arranged this scenario and he needs 191 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,679 somebody who has the cunning and the archetypal structure of 192 00:11:07,919 --> 00:11:14,200 a Hobbits to engage in a subversion and sneaking around Smog. 193 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,519 Speaker 2: So he needs just like he will need Frodo and Samuiz. 194 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: In The Lord of the Rings to eventually get into 195 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:25,679 Mordor when Saron is distracted right, which is a kind 196 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:31,039 of a espionage secret you know, deflection tactic, because Sarn 197 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,200 is focused on the war. This will allow the unsuspecting 198 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,840 Hobbits to make their way into Mortar to destroy the Ring. 199 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,879 But here we have a similar situation where Bilbo is 200 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,919 chosen by Gandalf because Gandalf knows as Bilbo's handler that 201 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,200 a burglar such as Bilbo would be perfect for the job. 202 00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: The Dwarves I forgot. By the way, I forgot the 203 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,159 song that they sing is actually the same song they 204 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:57,879 sing in the movie. 205 00:11:57,919 --> 00:11:59,519 Speaker 1: I'm not really going to be focusing a lot on 206 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,960 the movie. Obviously the book is better than the movie. 207 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,360 I don't think the Hobbit movies are terrible, but you know, 208 00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:08,919 they're not as interesting as the novel. 209 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,799 Speaker 2: But they did sing that song. 210 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,639 Speaker 1: I forget exactly what goes, but I thought that was 211 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,960 kind of funny. There's quite a bit of actually of 212 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:20,639 like spitting bars in this. I don't know if you noticed, 213 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,720 but the goblins they spit bars, so they actually. 214 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:25,879 Speaker 2: Kind of rap, which is what I thought was kind 215 00:12:25,879 --> 00:12:29,600 of funny. They're like doing battle raps and disraps in 216 00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:30,919 the midst of the adventures. 217 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: But the Dwarves are missing their homeland and they wish 218 00:12:38,399 --> 00:12:41,039 to have their gold in their homeland back. There's a 219 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:44,799 lot of discussion as to whether Dwarves represent Jews. I 220 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,960 think there's some possibility of this. I don't think it's 221 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,039 a one to one. I think that what Tolkien was doing, 222 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:53,840 very similar to Lewis in the Space trilogy, was warning 223 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:58,799 about the possibility of an international technocratic threat. That's one 224 00:12:58,799 --> 00:13:01,559 of the key prophetic elements that we'll especially see when 225 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:02,679 we get to Lord of the Rings. 226 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: And it's not just the all seeing eye sort of 227 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,120 symbolism of Salaron. It's also the tech warnings. And in fact, 228 00:13:10,279 --> 00:13:12,639 I was surprised in returning to the Hobbit to see 229 00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:15,799 some of those tech warnings in the Hobbit. I mean 230 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,480 I expected it and I remembered it from Lord of 231 00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:17,879 the Rings. 232 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: With the genetic engineering of the Aricai and Soromon basically 233 00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:23,759 creates a sort of gunpowder. 234 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 2: This kind of stuff. 235 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:29,519 Speaker 1: But I didn't recall that there's a specific discussion that 236 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,480 Tolkien has of the goblins creating the weapons of mass destruction. 237 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,960 He says, many of the implements that men use in 238 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,279 war to kill mass numbers of people, he said, are 239 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:46,240 Goblin inventions. So already in the prologue of the prequel, 240 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,279 The Hobbit, we have again even the more esoteric, so 241 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:57,159 to speak, themes of technology contrasted with nature and harmonizing 242 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,639 with nature, that synthesis with nature that's at against the tech. 243 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,879 And specifically he says about the Orcs, they really just 244 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:12,000 use tech to dominate and to destroy nature, right, So 245 00:14:12,039 --> 00:14:13,879 there's no respect for the natural world. 246 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: It's really just seen as a tool of dominance. And 247 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:17,440 that would become very clear. 248 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,799 Speaker 1: When we get to, of course, the the traitorous figure 249 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:22,320 of a Saramon. 250 00:14:23,559 --> 00:14:27,879 Speaker 2: So Gandolf Leaves runs. 251 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: Gandolf, as we said, is this sort of wise archetype 252 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,320 of this sage. He's also a kind of a Kissinger, 253 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,799 sort of an intelligence handler figure who has an immense 254 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:43,639 amount of knowledge. But he's also a member of a 255 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,159 secret order, and this comes up later on. We know 256 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,679 that he's a member of the order of the Secret Fire. 257 00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:53,320 He's a keeper of the Flame of arn Ore, and 258 00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:56,200 Gandalf will be consistently associated with. 259 00:14:56,519 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: What with fire. 260 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: And this is important because the different wizard in this world, 261 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:06,000 whether it's Ratigast or whether it's Saramon, or rather whether 262 00:15:06,039 --> 00:15:10,480 it's Gandolf right, they're elemental in their associations. Gandalf is 263 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,200 associated with fire, the flame of Warner. They keep it 264 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,759 the secret secret flame. Ratigas the Brown is associated with 265 00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:20,720 earth animals, et cetera. He speaks to them, hence the Brown. 266 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,919 So you have Gandalf the White. He's also when Gandalf 267 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,919 is sort of reborn as Gandalf the White, it's through 268 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,159 the White Flame that he's reborn. Saramon is airror and breath. 269 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,480 He engages in weather control. He builds towers up into 270 00:15:34,519 --> 00:15:37,840 the air to the sky, and he eventually wants to 271 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,240 become Samon the mini colored right, so he wants to 272 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:43,519 master all of the elements and have all the powers. 273 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,000 He is very much an intellect, which again intellect is 274 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,000 the higher the faculties again closer associated with air or mind. 275 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: Voice. 276 00:15:53,039 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: He uses a very hypnotic voice and magic power that 277 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,440 he has through his words and so that's all sologain 278 00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:05,799 air and utilizes mind control, right in the case of 279 00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:12,039 when he mind controls the King of Rohan. So there 280 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,720 are then these elemental associations that I think are necessary. 281 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,519 And again this is not surprising because, as I said, 282 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:20,960 one of the key elements here is Neoplatonism and the 283 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,720 neoplatonic association that they're associated with, you know, classical sort 284 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,759 of magical texts, and that's something that I don't hear 285 00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:31,879 anyone else talking about. Also, by the way, when we 286 00:16:31,879 --> 00:16:34,480 get into the Simmlarillion, we'll see the neoplatonic idea of 287 00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:38,519 the creation myth with the Valar and others. Right, that's 288 00:16:38,559 --> 00:16:45,039 also part of this neoplatonic structure that undergirds both the Space. 289 00:16:44,759 --> 00:16:46,759 Speaker 2: Trilogy and Lord of the Rings. 290 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: And perhaps you could argue as well Narnia, because of 291 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,039 course Oslin sings reality into existence, and we'll see that 292 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,279 with Illuvitar's creation of Middle Earth as well. 293 00:16:57,559 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: Now, to get back to. 294 00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings, the Dwarves are seeking their homeland, 295 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:05,839 so I think there is probably an analogy again thinking 296 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,400 of World War two right to some elements of the 297 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,240 history of the Jews. I don't think that Tolkien is 298 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,119 intentionally trying to be some sort of a Zionists think. 299 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,359 More so, he's concerned with the fact that the future 300 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,920 technocratic antichrist sort of power that would rise in the world. 301 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,519 And again Lewis is making this point with Volume three 302 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,279 of the Space Trilogy is something that would be against 303 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,359 all of the race, is playing them against one another, 304 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,240 and that's exactly what we see Suron and Saramon doing so. 305 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,559 The dwarves are eager to get back to their homeland. 306 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,759 They're very interested in jewels and gold, again suggesting certain 307 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:50,839 Middle Eastern peoples. We have a introduction of the dragon, 308 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,000 which is the archetype begin from scripture of the Serpent 309 00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:57,039 that invades Eden. In the story, of course, we know 310 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,680 eventually the Hobbit is a kind of a shame of 311 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,359 the shot is a kind of Eden, and it eventually 312 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,519 is threatened by the evil that's rising and mort or 313 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,799 the Sorcerer the necro answer, who I think we will 314 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:18,319 discover is Suron. But here the dragon is immediately associated 315 00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:22,000 with He devours men and dwarfs right. The dragon is 316 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:27,079 essentially a completely malevolent force with no goodwill or intentions, 317 00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:33,400 and is a pure force of destruction. But it's also 318 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:37,200 connected with the association that it has to gold, because 319 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,839 for whatever reason, dragons have to sort of uh, you know, 320 00:18:43,079 --> 00:18:46,440 make they crib and a bunch of gold, right, gold 321 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,519 all over my crib, Gold. 322 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 2: All over my bed, Isn't that right, Jamie? And so. 323 00:18:57,559 --> 00:19:01,759 Speaker 1: The story here then is how to get back into 324 00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:05,119 the mountain. We have this prophecy, as we'll learn later, 325 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,400 of the return of the King of Foreign Oakenshield with 326 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,960 the return of the King and of the Mountain, mirroring 327 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,119 again the return of the King of Aragorn at the 328 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:16,559 end of The Lord of the Rings. So again there's 329 00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:19,880 a lot of parallels to the later trilogy. 330 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: But again remember Tolkien was himself intelligence. 331 00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: He was for two years working in intelligence, espionage cryptography 332 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,200 at Bletchley Park. And I think that's a key element 333 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,000 that many people have not understood about this trilogy or 334 00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:40,200 about the books, because that would obviously influence what he's doing. 335 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,039 That's why he's so interested in not just language and linguistics, 336 00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:47,799 but symbology and symbolism, ruins, et cetera, and history itself, 337 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:49,480 Nordic history. 338 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: Ancient Slavonic myths, ancient. 339 00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:57,599 Speaker 1: Nordic tales, all of that plays a role in influencing 340 00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:05,880 this series. So as they embark on their journey, we 341 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:11,079 find them in engaging in the standard sort of fantasy 342 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,799 adventure stuff that you would expect a lot of this, 343 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:14,640 by the way, it comes out of mythology too. There's 344 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,559 references to trolls the elves. But one thing I thought 345 00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:22,400 that was interesting was as they embark on the journey 346 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,960 and they engage in these sort it's very similar to Odysseus, right, 347 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,160 So when Odysseus is on his journey, he's constantly sort 348 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,880 of tempted with giants and battling them, or when he's 349 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,240 you know, tempted by the sirens to be you know, 350 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:35,680 distracted from his course. 351 00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 2: So quite a few elements of classical. 352 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,799 Speaker 1: Literature kind of pop pop up here, whether it's Virgil 353 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,319 or whether it's Homer. You can see a lot of 354 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:53,279 parallels to ancient Western literature as well. But the elves 355 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:56,319 are also engaged in, if you didn't catch it, a 356 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,599 vast intelligence network. In fact, it's even explained that the 357 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,960 elves have intelligence before anyone else. They know everything that's 358 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,440 going on. They even sing songs about Bilbo on his journey, 359 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,720 and Bilbo doesn't even know how they knew this, presumably 360 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:15,200 maybe through Gandalf, but again, they know everything that's going on. 361 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,119 They don't exactly know when they get to the woodland elves, 362 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,519 but the earlier elves that they meet before when they 363 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:25,079 go to Rivendel, right, the el Ron and his elves 364 00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:28,079 are singing songs about them, and they have the intelligence 365 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,440 necessary to decode the map. 366 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 2: That is a map drawn up by Thorn's relatives. 367 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:41,599 Speaker 1: And l Rond is also again a kind of wise sage, 368 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:49,039 wise man handler. He's spoken of as knowing extensively various languages, symbols, runes. 369 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: Et cetera. So very much like Tolkien himself. 370 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: I think Tolkien saw himself as an el Rond or 371 00:21:54,519 --> 00:21:57,799 as a kind of a Gandolf character, again being a 372 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:01,640 master linguist, being a translator and working for British intelligence 373 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:02,559 at Bletchley Park. 374 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: So also interesting. 375 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: Is times, dates and seasons that come into play when 376 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,559 they mentioned during's day. You know, this is a world 377 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,720 where there are ritual holidays, and those ritual holidays are 378 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:22,400 connected to the sun and the moon, the signs, and 379 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,839 the seasons. This is obviously part of liturgy because in 380 00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:30,400 Genesis we have the statement that God set the luminaries 381 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,720 in the sky for times and seasons. So in a way, 382 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,920 the planets and the celestial spheres are like a giant clock, 383 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,359 and so the whole universe is sort of a clock 384 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,160 that at certain conjunctions has a religious connotation with it. 385 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,680 In terms of the religious calendar and the Orthodox Church, 386 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,680 we have the Orthodox Church calendar. Of course, Tolkien himself, 387 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,799 being a traditional Catholic who was a big fan of 388 00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:58,200 the Latin Mass, he also understood this same type of 389 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,119 a world view. The reality and life is liturgical, and 390 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,599 that's why Duran's Day is really important, because there's a 391 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,839 conjunction that's going to occur between the sun and the 392 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,240 moon at the same time it said, and there will 393 00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:13,400 be a thrush who is you know, knocking his acorns 394 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,400 or whatever, And that's a sign that it's an opening 395 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:21,079 for this doorway. At other times it doesn't open. We 396 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:26,079 also find them encountering rock giants or titans. This could 397 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,039 have a reference to Cabbalistic mythology. Of course, we have 398 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:34,680 the character Gollum himself could also have some degree of Cobbalistic. 399 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,079 Speaker 2: Reference or influence. 400 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,519 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that in the story the name 401 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,519 qualam is because he sort of needs to clear his throat. 402 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:46,680 Let me clear my throat, right, But it's also could 403 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,519 be a double reference to the Jewish medieval myth of 404 00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:54,640 the Gollum, which is the mind controlled entity that is 405 00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:59,200 used by the sorcerer or the wizard to do his bidding. 406 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,920 And that makes sense too because if you think about it, 407 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:10,000 really he Gollum is essentially a multiple personality, right. He's possessed. 408 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,000 He has a split personality. He's always talking to himself, 409 00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:16,599 talking to the precious. He has this dark, demonic side, 410 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,960 and he has this sort of normal, almost remnant of 411 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,839 who he really was before he became this sort of 412 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:24,759 goblin creature. 413 00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 2: But again, Gollum is MPD D I D. 414 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: And there's something else again that I'm gonna I will 415 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,680 bring up when we get to you know, Lord of 416 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,799 the Rings and what's what's the name is it? I'm 417 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:41,559 threw wheel, which is the sword that has to be 418 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:45,079 put back together again. That's that exists in like you know, 419 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,319 classic mythology and that kind of stuff ar thory in 420 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,799 mythology with the Lady the Lake, but the Titans again 421 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:57,440 out of mythology, the magical swords and objects that are necessary. 422 00:24:57,759 --> 00:24:59,400 We think about this as sort of crazy in the 423 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,519 modern world, but Orthodox Church we still think this way. 424 00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:03,279 We still think in this pre modern way because we 425 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:10,599 think of objects like relics, holy objects, icons, et cetera. 426 00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: We still think in this way. In our church. We 427 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,240 still think in a liturgical way. And the Lord of 428 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,519 the rings world, Middle. 429 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: Earth resonates with us because it is a universe re 430 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,400 impregnated with meaning and mystery and magic, so to speak. 431 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,799 Speaker 2: And by magic I just mean simply the spiritual world. 432 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: And when we eventually gets to under the mountain on 433 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:46,160 this journey, and you know, Bilbo is separated from the 434 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,440 rest of the of the crew when they're battling the goblins, 435 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:59,599 we have that statement that goblins no technology, a Tolkien says, 436 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,440 and they created the machinery that the humans use nowadays 437 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,279 to kill at a mass scale. It's almost like Tolkien 438 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,759 perhaps believes that the technology that we have perhaps comes 439 00:26:13,759 --> 00:26:16,400 from the demonic world. It's an influence that we got 440 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,440 from the demonic world. And this does parallel with Genesis six. 441 00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:22,720 Right now, keep in mind, we had just seen him 442 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,839 talking about the Titans Rock Giants having the sort of 443 00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:29,839 battle when the Hobbits or Exhumei when Bilbo and the 444 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,559 dwarves are on their journey and they have to take 445 00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:34,880 a different path through the mountain, and then it moves 446 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,240 from the Titans to immediately discussing the goblins that know 447 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,759 technology and helped to create the implements of war human WMDs. 448 00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:49,519 What a wild statement again, as if the technology that 449 00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:54,160 we have comes from this ancient almost prediluvian world before 450 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,440 the flood world. 451 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,079 Speaker 2: Perhaps it was an association. 452 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,799 Speaker 1: With Tolkien and the pre Deluvian and you know, Ananaki 453 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,559 Nephelin type of world where we had things like Titans, 454 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:08,240 which by the way, the deuter canonical text mentioned about 455 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,000 four or five times actual references to the. 456 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:12,279 Speaker 2: Titans or the Giants. 457 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,599 Speaker 1: So the Deutero canon actually confirms that Genesis six is 458 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,440 about humans and angels creating some strange race, which again 459 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:30,200 parallels again because the Orocai are an abominable, interspliced genetic 460 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:35,880 experiment that are creative. But as we said, Gollum is 461 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,559 essentially possessed because he's addicted to the Ring, and the 462 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,240 Ring recalls, as we know, the Ring of Geige's which 463 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,720 is book two of Plato's Republic, and this is a 464 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:51,680 story that's told in order to introduce the idea that 465 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:58,079 really having power is destructive unless you have virtue or 466 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,880 you have limits on that power. Would be a way 467 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,480 to act with that power in a virtuous or a 468 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,319 good way, versus using your power in some nefarious, villainous way. 469 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,880 And so in the story of the Ring of Guigee's 470 00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:15,319 if the guy has the ability to be invisible while 471 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,400 he goes and he bangs the queen and kills the king, right, 472 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:23,480 and so the point is that without virtue, raw power 473 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,160 like that will rot the soul. But also the Ring 474 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,920 of Power is symbolic in many other ways, and we'll 475 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,240 get into more of that when we get into the 476 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,480 Lord of the Rings, where the focus turns to the 477 00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,079 Ring itself as the sort of it's sort of the 478 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,720 silent antagonist of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. But 479 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,839 it's also three sixty, right, So the the Ring is 480 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,000 something that's three to sixty and it's all directions. It's 481 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,880 not four directions, it's every direction. So in every direction, 482 00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:55,400 the Ring represents total dominance of time and space. 483 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:56,759 Speaker 2: And this, I think is. 484 00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: Even referenced obliquely in the beginning of the Silmarillion. We'll 485 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,200 get to all that later, but there is a pull 486 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,559 again not just from ancient classical texts of the West 487 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,160 like Homer, but also from Plato's Republic again, which tells 488 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,039 us that it is neoplatonic influence as well. He wouldn't 489 00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:20,880 be pulling from the Republic if there weren't also perhaps 490 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:27,359 neoplatonic influence when we get to Elluvatar creating and the blar. Now, 491 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:29,920 magical technology is what we're talking about here. So the 492 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,920 Ring has ability to also sort of transcend time and space. 493 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,680 You become invisible, and we'll know we'll find out later 494 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,319 that it has other powers associated with Sarn. But just 495 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:46,200 like the Palaeer Stones Petertioll's Pallaeer, there is the idea 496 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:51,599 of espionage and spying and perhaps the elves, if I recall, 497 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,839 I think the elves have a relationship to the Palanteer Stones, 498 00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:55,680 and I know the elves have a relationship to the 499 00:29:55,759 --> 00:30:01,359 rings too, But ultimately you could say a magical technology 500 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,519 for espionage to rule Middle Earth. 501 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,559 Speaker 2: So it's exactly like the world that we live in today. 502 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: Again, super prophetic, prophetic, and I think Tolkien and Lewis 503 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,160 again see as Lewis's based Trilogy, Volume three. They knew 504 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:24,480 about the plan to use technology influenced by demonic powers 505 00:30:24,519 --> 00:30:28,799 to create a technocratic total surveillance state, to enslave the 506 00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:32,799 earth and to deepop and I think both Tolkien and 507 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,839 Lewis are warning about that. That's what's so amazing about 508 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:43,000 these prophetic literary works. We also have some older references 509 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,000 to thinking of the world, not just in terms of 510 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,359 by the way I mentioned there's a magic sword. Obviously, 511 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,599 we have Glamdring and or Chris, the Goblin cleavers, Beat 512 00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:59,599 and Biter, and they're magical Elvin's swords. If you think 513 00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:01,240 about it, you mean, I know this. There's actually a 514 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:03,759 reference to magic sword and the Maccabees. We'll talk about 515 00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:05,039 that when we get to the Lord of the Rings. 516 00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:09,119 But again, Dudo kanonical influence that I've never heard anybody 517 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,759 talk about oliphants also coming out of the Deutero canon, 518 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:16,880 time and space being transcendent with tech, but also references 519 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,880 to races, the races of Middle Earth, including the dwarfs, 520 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:27,519 the elves, the men, races of abominable things or things 521 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:31,720 that shouldn't exist, like the Rocai, the Goblins, and the orcs. 522 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,359 Clearly they have a reference to the demonic. I think 523 00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:38,680 they absolutely represent demonic entities. But we also have amongst 524 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,119 the natural world the animal races or the species. Right 525 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,559 the noble race of the Eagles of the Mountains is 526 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,640 led by the Lord of the Eagles. Bayorn, is this 527 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,000 sort of pre modern sort of skin changer, skin walker 528 00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:57,160 type of character who is not really a magical being 529 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,480 so to speak. He's more of a natural being who 530 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:01,839 has a of a natural magic so to speak. He's 531 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,200 a force of nature, perhaps a Lord of the Bears 532 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:08,759 or something like this, but he knows and speaks the 533 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:12,759 tongue of bears. This is a kin almost to Narnia, 534 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:16,079 where the animals have a language as well, and he 535 00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:19,359 comes from a time quote before the Giants or before 536 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,920 the Titans, so he's sort of a preternatural figure, perhaps 537 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,319 like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. We'll get to that debate 538 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,519 later on. But he does speak the tongue of bears, 539 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:34,759 which is fascinating because a recent Japanese spurg scientist Dude, 540 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:38,839 did multiple years of research on birds and is basically 541 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,079 proven that birds have a language and they have actually 542 00:32:43,079 --> 00:32:46,519 different specific sounds like fifteen to twenty different sounds for 543 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,599 specific things like warning of a snake or warning. 544 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: Of this other predator or food. 545 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,039 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating thesis that he's presented in a series 546 00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:56,599 of videos. 547 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 2: I'll try to remember to link that below. 548 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: But I thought that was neat because, well, that's kind 549 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,519 of what Tolkien and Lewis were saying, is it's interest 550 00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:07,519 that the animals have a language. Perhaps there's mysteries of 551 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:10,079 nature the Tolkien and Lewis ners that we haven't even 552 00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:12,440 understood yet, right that we have that we're just now 553 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,640 beginning to perhaps discover. But Bayron is also immediately associated 554 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,839 with the bear. He is a bearer man or instead 555 00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:24,759 of a werewolf, he's kind of a bear wolf perhaps 556 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,559 man bear pig. And he keeps bees, which is fascinating 557 00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:32,039 because he's again one of these creatures that helps them 558 00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:35,960 on their journey, who's immediately associated and connected to nature. 559 00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,920 And you get this theme throughout both Narnia and Lord 560 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,920 of the Rings that there's a battle between what's natural 561 00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:47,359 to man and the natural world and man's synthesis and harmony, 562 00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:50,960 which was originally there in Eden even to not eat 563 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,480 the animals before the fall. Right now, that relationship is 564 00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:58,319 allowed by God after the fall for human sustenance in 565 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,440 our sort of fallen biological but originally death was not 566 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:05,680 even natural or needed for the animal world. And so 567 00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:09,039 there is this return to Eden theme that's constant throughout, 568 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,039 and the rightful rulership amongst man, just like amongst the 569 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:14,840 animal kingdom. 570 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:16,639 Speaker 2: The animals have. 571 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:19,039 Speaker 1: A Lord of the Eagles, right, a Lord of the 572 00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:24,239 Bearers or whatever. Likewise, where's the king of the men. Well, 573 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,719 we know that Christ is of course prophet, priest and king, 574 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,960 and certainly that would be part of Lewis's symbology. But 575 00:34:30,039 --> 00:34:33,800 of course Aragorn er Strider is the rightful king by 576 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,960 the time of the Lord of the Rings. But even 577 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,719 here we have a rightful king in Thorn Oakenshield, who 578 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,920 will return to be the king under the mountain. Bajorn 579 00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:49,840 again is a character I think presaging a kind of 580 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,599 Tom Bombadil, right, And this is everybody's favorite mysterious character 581 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,960 in Lord of the Rings. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. What 582 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,920 are they? Who they represent? We'll get to that one 583 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:02,679 we get to the Lord of the Rings. But progressing, 584 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,840 as we said, we talked about the elemental wizards, Gandalf 585 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,079 representing fire, the flame of Ron or the keeper of 586 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:12,079 the Secret Fire, Ratagas being the wizard associated with earth 587 00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:17,239 and animals, Samon being air. So you have earth, fire, air, 588 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,360 and then water, which is fascinating because there are references 589 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,880 to the blue wizards, so this lets us know that 590 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,360 he is intentionally doing the fourfold elemental structure, and then 591 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,239 perhaps also the ether or something maybe that's Soromon is 592 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,880 something like that as well, or Saron, who knows. But 593 00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:35,960 the Blue Wizards, we don't know a lot about them. 594 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,159 They were just kind of referenced in passing Alatar and Palando. 595 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,400 They are the unknown wizards of the East, and they 596 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,199 are then. 597 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:47,519 Speaker 2: Blue associated with water. So that's the four elements right there. 598 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: And we begin in the first half to have a 599 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,159 reference to the necromancer right in the south and his 600 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,639 Dark Tower. So we have at this point the idea 601 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,480 that there are good towers. There is originally the Tower 602 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:04,039 of Sarromon Gondor has its towers, et cetera, which is 603 00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:06,880 that as kind of Byzantium, but we also have a 604 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:11,239 inversion of that, which is the Dark Tower, and that 605 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,079 of course would definitely influence Stephen King's Dark Tower series. 606 00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:15,519 Speaker 2: Stephen King was open about that. 607 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: He said, when I wrote A Gunslinger, it was you 608 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,440 know westerns I liked, and Lord of the Rings, well, 609 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,880 the towers are inversions of one another, right, and so 610 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,119 likewise you have the Tree, the White Tree of Gondor. 611 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,599 And originally there was going to be in the Satanic 612 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,519 Cult episode that he never wrote the New Shadow, there 613 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:40,199 was going to be a dark tree of evil, right, 614 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,719 or perhaps referencing the Tree. 615 00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:43,039 Speaker 2: Of an Aledge good and evil, something like that. 616 00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: But he said that it was going to be an 617 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,920 evil tree in the Hearts of men. So perhaps not 618 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,360 even necessarily a literal tree, we don't know, but that's 619 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,639 what's in the background, of course, in Lewis's or Shumi 620 00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:59,119 and Tolkien's mind here. So the other thing I thought 621 00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:01,280 was interesting too is, as you might imagine, we're going 622 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,599 to see a obvious progress, not just in the humility 623 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,360 of the characters, right, because one of the key points 624 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,119 of Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit is that 625 00:37:11,639 --> 00:37:16,039 humility is really what wins against evil. Evil has no humility. 626 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:22,400 Satan his followers their chief sin is and begins in pride, 627 00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:27,440 and the humble Hobbit is a being that you are 628 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,360 absolutely unsuspecting, right, you would never expect that this sort 629 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,719 of cowardly, you know, luxury loving creature would venture all 630 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,159 the way into smogs, you know, crib or all the 631 00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:41,079 way into mortar. 632 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: And that's exactly the genius. 633 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: Of Gandal's plans in both stories, both adventures, and at 634 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,400 the same time, it's a learning curve, an ascetic struggle 635 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,239 for Bilbo and for Frodo and Sam as they go 636 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,639 on this asthetic journey, because throughout this journey they are 637 00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:07,119 craving the amenities of the shire, right, second breakfast, elevensies, 638 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,679 they want their dainties, their treats, right, they want their 639 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,920 pipe weed, they want their warm bed, and they're constantly 640 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,280 going through the struggle of overcoming the passions. And in fact, 641 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:22,440 people were telling me, as I mentioned I was going 642 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,760 to do this that a lot of Orthodox priests and 643 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,280 people have recommended reading Lord of the Rings throughout Lent 644 00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:31,639 because you kind of go on that journey with Bilbo, 645 00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:34,760 with Frodo and Sam. And I remember the first time 646 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,199 I've read Lord of the Rings, and you know, when 647 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,880 they're just struggling through the marshes and they're so miserable. 648 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 2: And wet and hungry. 649 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,639 Speaker 1: You could almost feel that, you know, back when I 650 00:38:44,679 --> 00:38:46,440 read that, when I was in you know, six or 651 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,639 seventh grade, I was just like. 652 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 2: Immersed in that. 653 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,159 Speaker 1: And I think that's telling because you never forget that imagery, 654 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,639 and just like you never forget when the Ring raids 655 00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:57,519 show up, right. It's just powerful, creepy imagery when you're 656 00:38:57,559 --> 00:38:59,960 a kid reading that, and then now as you're in 657 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,760 adult to reflect on it, and you see even in 658 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,079 your lifetime as a kind of a journey. Think about 659 00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:09,840 your lifetime like Bilbo or Frodo's journey right towards the end, 660 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,079 towards the final battle with death, the final confrontation, and 661 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:20,599 overcoming the passions, because the Ring, as you know, essentially 662 00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:24,880 excites all of those passions selfishness, hatred, anger, and the 663 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,880 more that you use it, the more. 664 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 2: It takes you over. 665 00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:33,599 Speaker 1: Just like galum, so will Bilbo Begalam, will Frodo Begalam, etcetera. Right, 666 00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:37,519 they have to overcome that temptation to pleasure and to 667 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:41,400 worship and love the self. And that's really what Souron 668 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,880 is sort of offering here. Now this concludes the first 669 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,119 half of the Hobbit. There's a lot more to say 670 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,039 about the Hobbit. We're going to do part two very soon. 671 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,559 I'm almost done with it. We have just a couple 672 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:56,440 more hours left as we write it and listen to 673 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,280 it on the road. Yes, I've read it. I read 674 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,599 it twice when I was a kid, so I don't 675 00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:04,480 feel like I'm cheating listening to it when we're driving 676 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,840 for eight hours a day. 677 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,599 Speaker 2: And so yes, we will get to more of this, 678 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:12,480 and then we will get deep. 679 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,760 Speaker 1: Into the lore of this big bad baby. This bohemos here, 680 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,239 which is probably the best version that I've seen. 681 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 2: I also have. 682 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: I have I think four different versions. This one I 683 00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:25,159 like a lot because it has all the Alan Lee 684 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,480 art in it. But also there are other, you know, 685 00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:32,760 good versions that I think come from the What's His 686 00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:37,280 Christopher his Son's editions, et cetera. So it's gonna be 687 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,320 a fun series. This is the kicking it off, first 688 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,800 half of the Hobbit. Hopefully you enjoyed this. I will 689 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,760 also bring on people like Tim Gordon. Tim Gordon, for example, 690 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,039 has done courses where he teaches symbology in the Lord. 691 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 2: Of the Rings. 692 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,079 Speaker 1: He has a lot of interesting Christian symbology that he 693 00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:57,920 brings in Prophet, priest and King play a role in 694 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,360 his analysis, so we're gonna hear his take on it. 695 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,639 It's gonna be, I think, a good deep dive series. 696 00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:06,960 And I want you guys also underneath to comment on 697 00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:08,719 things that I missed, because I know a lot of 698 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,039 you guys are nerd of the Rings people. A lot 699 00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:13,800 of you guys have read it many times. You've probably 700 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,400 read more than me on this, so fill me in 701 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,679 on details that I'm not aware of other connections and associations. 702 00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:22,440 I know that even the Elvin lore with some of 703 00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:25,760 y'all Chad nerds goes super deep. Some of y'all nerds 704 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,519 can even freaking speak Elvis. Probably all I can do 705 00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:31,800 is the taking the Horbits, Tuie and God, which is 706 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,039 a pretty good legalist, I would say. Otherwise, hit like 707 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,519 and share. Tell me what I missed below, and remember 708 00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:39,159 to head on over. 709 00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 2: To Chalk dot com. Choq dot com the best and 710 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,119 supplementation on the Internet. Chalk dot com. Use a promo 711 00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:46,960 COJ sixty to get sixty. 712 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: Percent off all those great Chalk products and sign up 713 00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,800 for that subscription. It's a great discount. You can get 714 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,400 the ton kettleik coming on the regular, but listen. You 715 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,519 can unsubscribe at anytime. Also, if you like this symbolic analysis, 716 00:41:59,559 --> 00:42:02,800 you can get at the shop at Jasonallsis dot com 717 00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:06,440 signed copies of Ester Hollywood one, two and three, one 718 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:12,239 thousand plus pages on film symbolism, literary symbolism, espionage, all 719 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,039 that tied into your 720 00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 2: Favorite movies, and they're all signed copies.