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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime.

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Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 5: We're joined today by Jerome Ilam, the CEO of Trafficking

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in America. Task for us here to talk to us

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about a new topic for US, human trafficking.

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Speaker 3: Jerome, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 6: Now, christ it is such an honor to be here today,

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and thank you so than so much for having me on.

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It's unfortunate that people will have about our understanding of

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human trafficking, especially when it comes to kids. I was,

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unfortunately a victim of child six trafficking from the age

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of five to the age of twelve. A man a

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romances way into my mother's life when she was when

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she was very young and she was an alcoholic. Unfortunately,

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he began to groom me and then trafficking after a

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period of time. So if I can save the next

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victim from going through all the pain and suffering I did,

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My job is done.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we were talking about just before

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we started, Jerome is it's shocking I think to both

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of us, and I think lots of other people, many

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of them listen to this podcast. I don't think any

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of us realize how much human trafficking there is out there.

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Can you start by just giving us a working definition

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when we talk about human trafficking, What exactly are we

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talking about?

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Speaker 6: Human trafficking is the exploitation of people through force, fraud,

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a coersion for profit or personal gain. Let me add

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a caveat when it comes to children and you're looking

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to arrest a trafficker, you have to prove none of this.

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If someone is actually selling a child, they're going to

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get arrested, they're going to go to jail. But mainly

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for adults, force for a or coercion applies, and it's

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something that's unfortunately been around for a while, has become

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unbridled and rampant.

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Speaker 5: I'm curious, is there a difference between human trafficking and slavery?

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What U is the distinction between human trafficking and slavery?

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Speaker 6: Well, Christa, thank you for that question. Slavery is a broader,

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older concept. It's what a person's controlled owner force a

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work against their will with no freedom to leave. Human

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trafficking is a crime and a process that often leaves

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the slavery. It's when people are recruited, transported, or harbored

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through force, fraud, a coercion for the person's exploitation. The

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explotation could be labor, sexual expectation, or even organ removal.

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Speaker 5: That's terrifying, the last part that you just said organ remove, Well,

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actually people who traffic in that.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I actually did a conference a year ago

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in New York and it's actually becoming very prolific in

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this country because you think about it, people who need

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a liver or heart or a kidney and they get

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all on the Unices list and it's two or three years.

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Somebody has the means if they're very wealthy, you can

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just you can buy in order like that. Actually, one

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of my friends from Eritrea in Africa, he was actually

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grabbed by a group of traffickers put in an hotel

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room and they were going to remove his organs to

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sell them, but he escaped. So this is something that

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that's unfortunately becoming more rampiant. Is just very lucrative, and

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we've actually seen individuals actually be sex traffic and organ

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traffic because they take up take one of the take

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one of the kidneys out, they can still actually sell

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them for sexual purposes. So this is just despicable and

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there's actually no level they won't sink to to make

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a profit.

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Speaker 2: So how prevalent is human trafficking overall? I'm getting the

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impression this is a much larger problem than most of

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us ever think about.

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Speaker 6: It is. The International Labor Organization estimates that human traffickers

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victimized and estimated twenty six point seven million worldwide, and

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seventy percent of these victims are enforced labor twenty two

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percent and sex trafficking fifty seven percent of men and boys,

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four to ThReD percent are women and girls, and it's

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just something that's really grown. Unfortunately, in twenty twenty two,

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three point three million children estimated to be exported through

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sex trafficking and labor trafficking at any given moment.

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Speaker 3: Those are staggering numbers.

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Speaker 5: Do you have any indication that maybe those are soft numbers,

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that it's a bigger problem.

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Speaker 6: Oh, you hit the nail eight. They are. Because Bill

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and Christen, you have to think about this. The numbers

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we get on human trafficking are from arrest or convictions.

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When you look at human trafficking as a crime, it's

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so incredly difficult to acute because the real lynchpin is

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getting a victim to testify. In most cases, a victim

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is so terrified that the traffic is going to seek

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retribution against them, they won't testify. So there's so many

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cases that get pled down to a simple assault or

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something else and are never documented. So this is something

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that has much bigger numbers, and it's just a matter

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of getting more people to talk about it and also

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helping law enforcement put these traffickers away.

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Speaker 5: What you said right there about the fact that it

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is hard to find victims who are willing to talk.

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That reminds me a lot of some of the same

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numbers that you hear around rape. That is hard to

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find rape victims that are willing to report and willing

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to talk. So it sounds like there's some similarities there

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in reporting numbers.

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Speaker 6: Oh absolutely, And we really like to talk about sexual

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trauma in the sense that you've got someone who really

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has had there since reality ripped out from under them,

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and the reeling from this experience. And again, one of

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the things that we really work very hard to accomplish

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in my organization is create resources because we don't have

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enough trained people out there, even for rape victims. People

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look at all the rape kits that go untested in

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this country and it's just unbelievable. So we're not being

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aggressive enough, support enough to make sure that individuals get

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put away because what happens is, as we all know,

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they keep committing these crimes and they get worse and

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they get more bolder. So it's a matter of getting

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and I do work with Congress quite often. I just

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actually did a bill on Artificial intelligence and child sexibicet

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material which are using AI to generate child sexybiesce material

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and the law hasn't caught up with that. So I

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work with Congress to create laws that make sure these

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traffickers don't fall through these loopholes and get away with it.

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But again, it's all a matter of getting awareness out

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to the public so they can report if they see something,

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and they can shut these people down.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of us, naively Jerome, think, oh,

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this will never have any impact in my life. What

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groups of people are most at risk for being trafficked?

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Speaker 6: Oh wow, we could talk about socioeconomic factors and minorities.

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Bill Realistically, everybody. One of my friends works in Atlanta

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with victims, and she actually spoke to a quote unquote

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reformed trafficker and she asked him what do you look

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for in a victim, and he said that they're breathing.

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He said that she could point to and this was

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actually in like a mall, and he said she could

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point to any young girl walking by and he'd have

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her on the street in an hour. So there's nobody

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that's immune. They One of my good friends, her father

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was one of the executives at one of the big

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three automakers in Detroit, and she had a boy in

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high school that she liked. One day, this boy offered

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to give her a ride home and she said, okay, sure.

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Then he said, all of the got stopped by my house.

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Now she assumed that his parents were going to be home,

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but they were not, so his house, he gave her

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a soda laced with drugs, so she passed out, and

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then he and his friends proceeded to sexually assault her

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and photographic and they used this to blackmail her into

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being trapped. And she said she had her own phone

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in her room. They would call her at three in

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the morning, and she'd kept to crawl out her window

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and go and be traffic. Now on the way she

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got away from these people was she'd moved from Detroit

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all the way across the country. So nobody is really

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immune to it. But we know that people from low

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synomic status are more vulnerable. We know that people with

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lower education levels are more vulnerable. Again and again, one

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of the most despicable things is that they go after

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the development disabled and disabled people and traffic them as well.

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So nobody's really immune to this, and no one's really safe.

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And all of my friends is the son of President

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Reagan Michael Reagan, and he was actually molested and used

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for shop pornography when he was an elementary school by

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high school counselor and it took him like twenty years

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to talk about it. So again, no one's immune Wall

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Street to Main Street. Everybody's vulnerable.

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Speaker 5: It's interesting we know that nobody wakes up one day

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intending to be a victim of human trafficking. Obviously, I

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am curious though, for somebody who wants to get into

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the business, like, how does that even happen? You certainly

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don't go walking around and saying, hey, I'm interested in

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getting into human trafficking?

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Speaker 3: How do I do that?

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Speaker 5: I'm really curious, like, how does somebody even begin the

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process of learning how to traffic and grab human beings?

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Speaker 3: That just sounds so yeah, that sounds so odd. How

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does that even happen?

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Speaker 6: It's a great question. And I'm going to tell you

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we have fought with Amazon and Barnes and Noble because

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they have books. Actually Amazon was letting pedophile self published

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band on how to target molested kids, and they both

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have books. I could tell you the books, this one

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called Pimpology on Amazon and Barnes and Noble by a

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pimp talking about how to traffic people. So we're always

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after them to take this stuff down. So again, I

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think it's something that's very lucrative. If you go on Facebook,

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there are traffics on Facebook, and there's this lifestyle that

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they represent. It's money, it's having fancy cars and getting

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all these things into life by exploiting people. And I

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think some individuals just feel like they're owed a life

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of luxury and so they don't care what they do

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how to do to get it. This is something that

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I think is just perpetuated bodies. Individuals represent themselves as

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living this really extracting it lifestyle and doing it by

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selling people because we all know that, or the traffic people,

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you have to reduce them from human beings to objects.

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And so they are essentially taught how to do this

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by other people. And I talk very briefly the largest

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child trafficking ring in the US was run out of Minneapolis,

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Minnesota by three generations of the same family, multi million dollars,

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the Evans family. It was only brought down because, and

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this is where one person makes a difference comes into play.

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A police officer pulled over our two young girls and

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he noticed that fake IDs. Now fake id's are something

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that's very prevalent in trafficking because I don't want you

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to try to trace back, and so he noticed the

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fake IDs and from that traffic stop, this whole organization,

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which was trafficking kids as young as fourteen in twenty

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first States including Canada, was brought down. So this is

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something that can actually be generational as well. And it's

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just one of the things where we've got to shadow

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that stereotype of making money by any means necessary is

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not going to help you sleep at night. It's not

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going to really do society any good. So we have

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to discourage these people by having harshal penalties against people

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who traffic human beings.

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Speaker 5: Does the FBI currently have task force? Does the Justice

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Department have a task to sun human trafficking?

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Speaker 6: Or actually FBI Operation Innocence Lost And they've actually rescued

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thousands of kids again, some youngess twelve in these raids

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that they do. They are definitely on top of it

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because I work with them. But again, Christina Bill, the

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thing that hinders them is that these traffickers and predators

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and pedophiles are incredibly wealthy, with a lot of resources,

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so they can they can drop, they can call a

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six fear lawyer to come in and defend them. And

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also again it's so difficult to get someone, especially in

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a child, to testify because one of the things that

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these people do is that they're not only groomed the child,

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they groom the adult around the child. Jerry Sandusky's first

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victim to come forward to a prince went to his

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spirncipal and said, Jerry said, Dusky's molested me. The principal said,

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what do you want to get Jerry and tumble for

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he's a great guy. So there's this facade that's generated. Again,

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these traffickers aren't don't look like Charles Manson. It looked

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like the three piece suits, the people that are sitting

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in church next to you, through your taxes whatever. So

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they have a very respectable camouflage. They used to go

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after kids, and they really are difficult to go after.

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Speaker 3: They look like Jeffrey Epstein over.

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Speaker 6: I do a former cab driver who wormed his way

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into this particular position where he could exploit young women.

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Speaker 5: Would you say that the Internet and like the rise

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of the digital age, has made it easier to traffic human.

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Speaker 6: Beings Oh, absolutely, anonymity that you can have on the Internet.

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You can just be, you can be see avatar. I

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was part of a coalition of congressmen and women, Ango's

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survivors and areanizations that helped take down the world's largest brothel,

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Backpage dot com. Oh yeah. At their heyday they were

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making one hundred and seventy two million dollars a year. Now.

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They started out as the advert section of the Village Voice,

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and they began to sell individuals, the traffic people in

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the Village Voice until they kicked them out. They moved

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to Dallas, got some new funders, and then people went

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after them still and they moved to the Netherlands. So

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we fought for three years because there's something called the

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Communications Decency Act, Section two thirty, which says that Internet

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providers are not responsible for third party content. We found

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out was what we proved was Backpage was helping traffickers

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craft their advertisements to get around law enforcement. That also

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helped that Backpage was laundering money for organized crime. So

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the FBI got them on both counts. So we got

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an amendment pass to section two thirty. Other Communications di

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This is the act that helps shut Backpage dot Com

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down thought that battle along and hard, and we got

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a lot of pushback from their funeral of speech people,

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but we said no, when it comes to kids, we've

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got to do everything in our power to help stop

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them from being victimized.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people that listen to the

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podcast are adults and our parents, although we have lots

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of young listeners and it's a full range. What can

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parents and families do to head off this really scary

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prospect of their kids who were, let's face it, on

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the internet pretty much all day. Every day a phone

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becomes practically attached to your hand. What can parents and

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other responsible adults do to head this off so that

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their family members are not getting drawn into this horrible exploitation.

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Speaker 6: No, that's a great question, and full disclosure, I'm a

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parent of teenagers, so I have a lot of experience.

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Now this is something I was talking about earlier today.

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My number one mantra when it comes to kids is

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love them unconditionally. Make sure they know their love unconditionally.

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I spent twenty five years of trauma therapist and one

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of the things that I kept bringing up was why

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am I here right now and so many kids that

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were traffed alongside me didn't make it. We came down

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to the fact that I had one person in my life,

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a great aunt, who loved me unconditionally, and that became

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the tether that battled me to this humanity and really

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helped me get through the darkest time. So first and foremost,

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love your kids unconditionally. Secondly, talk to your kids. And

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I'm talking about smartphone down. Yeah, and talk to your kids,

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but find something that your kids love. Now. One of

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the things that I and I think Manaers were shocked

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by is that kids spend hours looking at other people

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playing video games on YouTube. It's a big deal. So

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I made sure I got involved and watched these understood

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what was going on. So I spoke the same language

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as my kids. I even play video games with my kids.

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They say I'm very bad at it. That's because you're

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a dad, But I don't care. I'm pac Man and

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Galaga that that's my generation. So I think it's keeping

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that connection with your kids and just talking to them,

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because what I always say is that if you can

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keep that door open for communication and let them know

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that you're listening, then you can always have the chance

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of been telling you something that's really bothering them. Because

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one of the things that I had to learn, which

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I was surprised, is that one of my kids said, Dad,

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I didn't tell you. I thought you'd get mad at me.

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I said, look, if you don't tell me, I'll get mad.

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I said, there's nothing you can say to me that's

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going to make me mad. I said, it's important that

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we talk about these things and get them out in

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the open, because there's, like may Angelo said, there's no

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greater agney than bearing a secret inside you. You've got

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to break that silence and talk about it. Sommunicate with

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your kids, give them your undivided attention, and when they

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ask you to do something with them, please take the

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time to do it because it makes them feel like

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they're important. Because what we know from the research is

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that the bulk of the kids who are victimized groom

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recruited on the internet are in chat rooms where they

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feel like I have no one to talk to, look

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to their peers, their parents. So these traffickers, these predators,

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these violentdividuals go in these chat rooms and then just

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what to say. So they talk to the kids and

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they'll just bait them along and get to the point

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where they either use extortion or lure them out. And

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we've really got to make sure that our kids are

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always important in our lives, that we talk to them,

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they never feel like they're down the list in our lives.

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That's my big record that the next one is education.

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You can go to our website, Trafficking Record Task Force.

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You can go to the Justice Department's website, you can

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go to Player's Project. All these websites have information I'll

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how to educate yourself about uma trafficking. Also, you can

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call the National Human Trafficking Hotline twenty four to seven

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forty forty plus languages, and they will help you. You

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can also call the National Center for Misisplayed Children. You

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can even text them or email them if you feel

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like you have a concern and they will get back

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to you. Because I know I've worked with we call

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it neck MEC National Center of Mixployed Children. I'll end

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up for a long time. They've always told me, because

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we've had some jurisdictions where parents' kids have gone missing

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and they called law enforcement. They said, oh, give it

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twenty four hours. No, no, But they do that a lot.

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It and they said, call us. I said, if somebody

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told us that, you call us and will act swiftly

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to deal with this. So again, you knowing what the

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signs are, knowing who to notified, called nine to one

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one if you can't think of anything else, and report it.

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But again, it's always good to be educated and know

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what to expect when you're in public. And one of

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the areas that are really troubling our theme parks, because

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theme parks are a huge hunting ground for sexual predators

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and human traffickers. And I've actually been an unnamed theme

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park and I've seen because the work in pairs, and

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I've seen them working in pairs that I have a

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learned security that these two guys are after kids, and

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they're watching for a kid to get loose from their

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parents and go after them. So theme parks are a

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really big area. But in general, you have to be careful.

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We tell kids that if you don't know someone in

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real life, don't be friends with them on social media

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unless you can shake their hand and your parents and

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have met them, don't be friends with them on social

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media because that's where the whole thing begins, and it's

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a silppery slope for them to actually begin to groom

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you and isolate you from your parents.

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Speaker 2: But short of monitoring your kids internet usage, how are

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you supposed to know that your thirteen year old is

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up in their room and he or she is on

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a chat when they should be asleep and should have

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completed their homework and gone to bed. Failing monitoring their

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internet usage, how do you know you know what they're

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up to in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 6: Well, that's a great question. I always say, number what,

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trust your gut your kids. If your kids start behaving differently,

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then I would have a conversation with them trying to

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see what's going on. Typically, you know what we say

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as some of the signs of someone being trafficked is

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they have what we call a burner phone, which is

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a cheap cell phone you can buy hotel card keys.

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Absent from school. Again, I was traffic while I was

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in school. He pulled out a school traffic after school.

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People would pick me up, clients would pick them up

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after school and do what they want, ripe and molest me.

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And so just be aware your kids. Trust your gut again,

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and it's having that conversation with your kid and telling

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them look, you said I And this is because I

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teach human trafficking in high school. So I tried to

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tell teenagers. Look, I said, I know you guys are

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aware of things. You're very smart, very capable, but you

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don't know what these people can do. These people are devious,

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they're criminals. So if someone is telling you things that

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you want to hear to make you feel good and

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you're just not you know who this person is, then

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you need to talk about this with someone. Doesn't it

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be your parents, It can be your teacher, it can

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be the school resource officer, anybody. But I encourage them

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to have a discussion. But again, like Bill said, you

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can't go into your kids social media and your computers.

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You can you know, know when something's off with them.

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But again, having a discussion with them about human trafficking

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and exploitation and about what happens. And again, don't candy

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code it. Research has shown that the age of pro

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but don't candy code it for your kids. Tell them

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exactly what goes on and how it can happen very

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quickly and they can be victimized. And again, if you

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talk to your kids and they listen to you, they

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know the risk, and that's all you can really do.

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Having their teachers educated, having other people in their lives

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educated to supplement your watch over them is really key too.

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Because I just did I'm going to be training teachers

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in New Jersey, and so I educate in schools and

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teachers and parents all the time, as many eyes and

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ears as we can get on this issue. It's important janitors,

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bus drivers, uber drivers, cable installers, male men and women.

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So we try to get everybody involved in this. And

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so again Bill and Kristen doesn't have to be your

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burden alone. We're going to spread that out amongst everybody

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so we can help make sure our kids are protected.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. Will be right back

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00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,680
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

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00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:07,599
Mind over Murder.

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Speaker 5: As an educator who works with teenagers, I think this

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is a fantastic idea, but we also know, because you're

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the dat of teenagers, you can't really tell a teenagers

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something and assume that they're going to listen or take

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it seriously the first time, the second time, or even

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the third or fourth or fifth time.

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Speaker 3: Even when the education component is there.

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Speaker 5: What are some other things that organizations like yours or

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God willing, the federal government can do or should be

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doing to help protect the digital landscape because we know

447
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that's where teenagers like to spend most of their time.

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You already talked about like shutting down back Page. What

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else needs to be done to help make the Internet

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a little bit safer or is not a lost cause?

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Speaker 6: That's a great no, that's a great, great question, Kristen I.

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My organization Track or Macro task Force is part of

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what's called the Digital Childhood Alliance. Now, what we're doing

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is we're going after Android and Apple because they're allowing

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apps in their stores that can be used to exploit kids.

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So we're holding these companies accountable for what they're letting

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out there and letting kids have access to. Again, we'll

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also we also continue to work with YouTube, Facebook, all

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these other social media platforms to make sure that they're

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protecting kids and that they actually give away for people

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to report when they see things that aren't right. They

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know kid that no kids are being exploited. We figure

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education is the olive brands. We do. Let's let me

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show you how to help protect kids, but we do

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really go after them when they're not doing what they

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need to do to make sure kids are protected, because again,

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it's just so easy for someone to go and create

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a fake name, fake avatar, and just go and start

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grooming kids.

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Speaker 2: How of these major companies, well, let's be honest, they

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facilitate and to some extent, control the Internet. How have

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they responded to the Alliance and other groups who want

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them to make changes and build in some parameters here

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to avoid this kind of exploitation.

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Speaker 6: We're getting a good traction. I think that. Unfortunately, with

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Epstein and others in the news, it really does highlight

477
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,079
the risk involved in this, and so we're really beginning

478
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,960
to get through to them and get them to understand

479
00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:28,640
that this is bad pr If they're not protecting children,

480
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,000
that's not good for anybody. So they're really beginning to

481
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,799
listen to us, but we're still hammering away to just

482
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,480
make sure that they're doing that. The moderators especially, are

483
00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:42,079
doing everything they can to stop kids from being exployed. Now.

484
00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:47,240
I'm also currently working with organization that's going after Pornhub.

485
00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:48,680
I don't if you guys know about porn hub, but

486
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,440
it's a really vile website that allows you to upload videos,

487
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,960
and people are uploading videos of kids being exploited and

488
00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:01,480
molested sick. And there was actually a a clip of

489
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,079
some of the porn hub executives and unfortunately a woman

490
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,799
talking about how a thirteen year old boy being raped

491
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,400
and molested was okay, And I did an interview when

492
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,920
I have to say about this and how despicable this was.

493
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:16,880
We're going after websites like porn Hub and others who

494
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,839
continue to exploit kids. But there's a lot of litigation

495
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:24,039
against porn hub bits victims, which is really gang a

496
00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:28,160
lot of momentum. So we're really just making sure no

497
00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:31,759
stones left unturned. Now. One of the things that I

498
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,039
encourage people and what my organization does is as a parent,

499
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,519
I always practice what we call positive discipline, and so

500
00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:42,680
that means that you reward. So I really advocate for

501
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,119
rewarding organizations when they take a positive step forward that

502
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,079
kind of shames the other ones. Yeah, Actually, so we

503
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,279
try and praise when Facebook or other platforms really do

504
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,960
something meaningful to help protect kids and that and I

505
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:02,920
think that works very well when you just highlight what

506
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,720
good acts mean and how what they can accomplish.

507
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,599
Speaker 2: Now, some of these websites though they maintain that all

508
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,359
their models are eighteen years old and older, and they

509
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,839
make all these claims that they're running things with adult

510
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:23,240
entertainment for adults by adults. Is that just complete garbage.

511
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 6: You know what, Bill, That's a great question, because one

512
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,279
of the things we're also doing is what's called age verification.

513
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,400
We've actually got the law has been passed in several

514
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,240
states that someone is not allowed to access or post

515
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,279
any of this material unless their age has been verified.

516
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,119
And we hear a lot from the porn industry about

517
00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:45,799
what they're doing without doing enough, and so they've got

518
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:49,200
to do better about making sure that the material that

519
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,200
they're allowing to be posted is not of a minor

520
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,039
because a lot of times they'll say, oh, they look

521
00:28:56,119 --> 00:29:00,799
like they're eighteen, or they said they were eighteen. Verify that, yeah,

522
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:05,079
But also just be careful, use your eyes, help moderators

523
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,920
recognize when there are photos or videos being posted that

524
00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:13,839
are obviously not people of age. Because I've read transcripts

525
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,559
from port Hub and others where the moderators were basically

526
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:21,599
told that if they're unsure, just let it go, and

527
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,119
that's just unacceptable. We can't allow that to happen.

528
00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:28,559
Speaker 2: You'd think that these companies would find a way to

529
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,640
clean up their act. It's just it's so cringe that

530
00:29:32,759 --> 00:29:35,680
they would be putting out this content and just saying

531
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,920
blithely looking the other way when it's content that's little kids.

532
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:43,079
It just it makes me want to wash my hands

533
00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:44,319
at the end of this conversation.

534
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,799
Speaker 6: No, absolutely, Again, it's all about profit. They're making so

535
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,240
much money, you know, off of these videos and photos

536
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,759
that you essentially have to drag them into court and

537
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:57,400
arrest them for them to do anything. It's just it's

538
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,920
just I mean we're talking. I think the porno industry

539
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,920
is billions of dollars and profits they generate from what

540
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,319
they do. So again, it's about this applies to these

541
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:10,960
websites and the traffickers, and I will tell people the

542
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:13,119
way to hurt them as a graph of their money,

543
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:17,759
because I have seen a human trafficker cry over a

544
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,480
thousand dollars repair bill on Mercedes, but not shit a

545
00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:25,079
tear over a child being murdered. It's all about the

546
00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:27,279
bank account, all about the bank account. If you go

547
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,000
after them and penalize them financially, that's where you get

548
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:33,759
real change, because it less you do that, they're not

549
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:34,960
going to make any effort.

550
00:30:35,359 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 5: Something that was said on one of the documentaries that

551
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,799
I was watching on your website the other night in

552
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:44,079
preparation for this episode. I can't quote it exactly, but

553
00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:46,319
I will paraphrase it. It was someone who said, we

554
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,799
have to make people understand that this is not so

555
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,759
much a criminal issue as it is a human rights issue.

556
00:30:51,799 --> 00:30:54,400
And boy, did that resonate with me really a lot,

557
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,079
because it had not occurred to me that this is

558
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,759
essentially fundamentally an issue of human rights. No.

559
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 6: Absolutely, And also just to piggyback off that, I also

560
00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:07,559
say that this is not male or a female problem.

561
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:10,119
This is a human problem. Happens to everybody. This is

562
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:14,720
a violation of human rights. To force somebody to be

563
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:18,240
traffic sexually, to be exploited, to be labor traffic, to

564
00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:21,400
be organ trafficked, you're stripping away their humanity. And so

565
00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:26,000
this is unconscionable that it goes on. And one of

566
00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:29,599
the things that we advocate for globally, especially when it

567
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,519
comes to victims, is restoring their human rights because that's

568
00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:35,599
been taken away. Because I will tell you that when

569
00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:38,720
we talk about victim recovery. I have seen a victim

570
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,559
take a half hour to decide between a hamburger and

571
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:44,559
a hot dog because they've never had that choice in

572
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:47,599
their lives. They've never been able to decide when they

573
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:50,920
go to the bathroom, when they sleep, when they eat,

574
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,799
and so this is their human rights being totally stripped

575
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:59,000
and obliterated. So we try and restore that and begin

576
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:03,400
to empower them by showing them they have choices and

577
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,680
they can overcome this. They can triumph the human spirit

578
00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:10,000
stronger than anything else, And we just kindled that light

579
00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:13,720
inside inside them until it becomes a flame and show

580
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:16,079
them that they can overcome this and be the person

581
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,000
that always wanted to be.

582
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 5: You talked about recovery from being trafficked. Obviously everybody's path

583
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,680
to recovery is a little bit different. Some people are

584
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:29,880
way down with therapy and other people are like, no,

585
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,920
thank you, I don't want anything to do with that.

586
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,359
Are there like suppert groups out there for people who

587
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,759
have recovered from trafficking? Are there therapists that specialize in trafficking?

588
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: Like?

589
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 5: What pathway is there forward for somebody who's recovering from

590
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:44,759
this trauma?

591
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,759
Speaker 6: Christen, there's a lot of resources out there, But again,

592
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,119
what we really advocate for is survivor leaders like myself

593
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:54,880
advocate for them and help guide them through the process,

594
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,880
especially when they're going through the court system. One of

595
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,200
the things that we all know is that at someone

596
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,200
has to decide that they need help. They have to

597
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:08,519
decide that they're willing to go into therapy. Now, unfortunately,

598
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:13,000
we see some cases where people want to just ignore

599
00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:15,400
it with their lives. Actually can never happen because that

600
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,079
fear and shame is so overwhelming. I do training for

601
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:22,079
mental health professionals, for doctors, nurses, to give them the

602
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,799
tools to try to help victims begin to recover from

603
00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:28,839
what happen to them. We unfortunately don't have enough resources

604
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,519
right now. We need to actually create more. We need

605
00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:34,319
to do more training in medical schools and schools of

606
00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:37,319
social work and other places to make sure that these

607
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,079
professionals have the tools they need to help individuals. The

608
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:44,440
bottom line is that we have to make sure that

609
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:47,839
victims feel like they matter because they've been told they

610
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:51,079
don't matter for so long. So it's a very long

611
00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:54,599
process and I'm very fortunate that I was able to

612
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:58,519
find someone who was a trauma therapist sex therapists trained

613
00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:01,799
by masters, and Johnson was a social worker for twenty years,

614
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,680
so I had this amazing toolbox to work with that

615
00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,720
still had a lot to learn in terms of helping

616
00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:10,599
someone who had been trafficked, especially a male. It's about

617
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:14,119
giving people the tools they need. The biggest thing is

618
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,679
that for a victim of feel like they're safe and

619
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,400
they're protected, that they have a place to sleep, they

620
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,840
have food, and you start with the basics and you

621
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,159
build from there. You have to allow victims to want

622
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,920
to go into therapy and deal with this issue. So

623
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,199
we just try to be supported, get them job training,

624
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,239
whatever they need, and then when they're ready to actually

625
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,800
start talking about this, we make sure that there's a

626
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,920
professional there trying to help them. But it's something called

627
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,119
a SECT, which is the as ECT, which is the

628
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:48,320
Association of Sex Educators and Teachers, and they have a

629
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,800
very phomental website that you can actually go to and

630
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,159
no matter where you are in this country, you can

631
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,599
plug in what you're looking for and it'll come up

632
00:34:58,599 --> 00:35:02,440
with a therapist and it'll tell you if they were

633
00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:06,280
pro bono or if they'll do a sliding scale with you.

634
00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:09,280
So we try and put resources excuse me out like

635
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,440
that to help make sure individuals have access and really

636
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,039
can begin to heal. But I think what I found

637
00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:20,599
in my role is that having someone who understands what

638
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,719
you went through is just so critical and I can

639
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,719
It's like I say, I can be in the room

640
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,440
with another victim or survivor. It's just comforting to be

641
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:31,719
around someone who understands and has been do that same

642
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,440
thing right. That's really been beneficial. I've had so many

643
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,719
people around the world. When I was in Africa and

644
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,239
I had a thirty five year old man in Africa

645
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,960
tell me for the first time he was molested at

646
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,239
ten years old. I've been in India, had people disclosed

647
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,440
to me. I've been I had a seventy six year

648
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,440
old woman in Maryland tell me for the first time

649
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,320
that she had been abused in traffic. So I think

650
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,519
it's a matter of opening that door up where there's

651
00:35:56,519 --> 00:36:00,199
no judgment. Now unfortunate when it comes to males. A

652
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,119
lot of men who contact me, but they say I'll

653
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:06,320
talk to you and nobody else because that fear and

654
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,599
shame for men especially is overwhelming. Because as men, we

655
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,039
have fourteen times a suicide rate of the norm and

656
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:19,719
thirty two times the rate of drug overdose as victims

657
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,559
of sexual violence. So men have particularly big problems called ego.

658
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,199
They can't get past that male ego, which says that

659
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,679
you should be able to handle anything. And again, I'll

660
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,320
just say that for the record, I'm only here because

661
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,280
a female survivor who took me and taught me that

662
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,000
could be a man. I could be a victim and

663
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:42,639
I could still be a man because it doesn't impinge

664
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,880
upon your manhood. And I will tell you that I

665
00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:49,000
learned the hard way that being able to show your

666
00:36:49,039 --> 00:36:53,000
emotions is a special kind of courage that we're fortunate

667
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,840
that women can teach us to do that. I'm very grateful.

668
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,920
I'm very grateful for that.

669
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: Well, as usual, the women are than that. We know

670
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,239
that you participated in the HBO documentary series on the

671
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,360
Serial Killers Apprentice with doctor Catherine Ramsland, who is a

672
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,119
friend of the podcast. Talk to us a little bit

673
00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:16,760
about your participation in the documentary and why you felt

674
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,639
that was important.

675
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 6: Well, that's a great question. Katherine Ramsey, what an awesome person.

676
00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:24,880
I'm so in awe of her whenever I talked to her.

677
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,079
She has some amazing insights. Now, my background, unfortunately, is

678
00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:34,880
that I was trafficked a little bit after this is

679
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,639
all going on with Elma Wayne Henley. What happened to

680
00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:41,360
me was tied into this whole network. Now there's a

681
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,039
documentary that I did with Discovery prior to this called

682
00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:50,079
The Clown The Candyman, which is a more comprehensive view

683
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,800
on Dean Coral and John Wayne Gacy. So that gets

684
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,159
into a little more detail at the overall picture. So

685
00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:01,119
I was unfortunately tied in this. Now there's a very

686
00:38:01,199 --> 00:38:04,519
vilele you would mean, called John Norman who ran an

687
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:08,199
in national pedophile ring that was tied into the one

688
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:11,000
that trafficked me, and he had a box of index

689
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:14,599
cards that they found and one of them was for Florida.

690
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,800
But those index cards mysteriously disappeared, as you'll see the documentary,

691
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,719
and they can't find them. My story ties into this

692
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:26,719
because I was trafficked within the same circles, and I

693
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,960
understood how grooming worked at that time on young boys,

694
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,559
and so I was able to talk about how emwhen

695
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:40,119
Henley was groomed and over time was trapped and forced

696
00:38:40,119 --> 00:38:41,880
it in the situation where he had to make a

697
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:47,000
choice and unfortunately he made the choice to get involved

698
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,400
in these murders, which is heartbreaking, but again it's all

699
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,400
about highlighting how these predators are able to groom people.

700
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,559
And Dean Coral was violent, as you probably know from

701
00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:02,400
watching the documentary, and he told Emrwayne Henley that these

702
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:05,639
boys that they were going after were getting a better life.

703
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:08,960
They're going to be houseboys, and so he kind of

704
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,119
sold them both line of things that got him involved

705
00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,000
in it. It starts out slow, where if you see

706
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:19,400
the documentary, he had Elmaren Haley doing brick and entering

707
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,880
in houses. Then he said, oh, you've broke in this

708
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,039
person's house. I'm going to turn you over to the police.

709
00:39:24,519 --> 00:39:29,679
Began to gain control over him slowly over time, until

710
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:32,880
he had him virtually trapped and there's nothing he could do.

711
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,440
I was really happy to just give my insights into

712
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,800
how that process unfolded, how prolific it was even back then,

713
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,639
and we've not yet begun to pull in the depths

714
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,400
of the patophile rings in this country, which are unfortunately

715
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,360
very rampant. And Epstein was just he was a part

716
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,280
of this, but he's not responsible for all the child

717
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,079
stakes trafficking in this country right. Again, it was great

718
00:39:59,119 --> 00:40:02,920
to give my insight and talk about, especially as a child,

719
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,960
how was groomed and exploited. And again I was written

720
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,599
and molested by doctors, lawyers, judges, politicians, you name it,

721
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,639
just people that were very respectable and had that cloak

722
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:19,079
of respectability. It's about breaking open and breaking that silence

723
00:40:19,079 --> 00:40:22,159
and letting people know that this goes on. And again

724
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,760
we know in the news that with PDDY and others,

725
00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:27,840
we know this goes on with people, and you're asking,

726
00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:30,719
what the heck are they doing trafficking people when they're

727
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,639
these millionaires and it's all about greed. But again, in

728
00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:38,840
the sixties and the seventies, this was something that was

729
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:45,119
very low tech and very sophisticated. Nonetheless, and again, living

730
00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:48,480
with that knowledge or living with that fear as I

731
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:51,280
tell people that you might not see the next morning

732
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,599
of the next hour, is just unbearable. And I think

733
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:59,880
that that kind of just terror is something few people understand.

734
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:02,960
I was happy to just pull a curtain back and

735
00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:07,000
just show people who wants a documentary exactly how someone

736
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:10,639
could go from being what people said was a very

737
00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:14,280
likable young man to someone who was actually engaging in Murders.

738
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 5: It was an absolutely shocking book to read, and of

739
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,199
course I'm so glad it got made into a documentary.

740
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,000
But boy, it really does hit you somewhere between your

741
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,960
heart and your gut when you realize what this poor

742
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,480
guy was going through and the choice that he ultimately

743
00:41:31,519 --> 00:41:34,280
had to make. I was so happy, though, to see

744
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,360
that you had participated, which is why, of course we

745
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,159
reached out to you.

746
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 6: I was telling Catherine Ramslin, I've seen this behavior and

747
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,480
when it comes to child soldiers. This essentially when you

748
00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:48,719
look at child soldiers in Africa and how they're pretty

749
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,800
much just programmed to go out and actually take lives,

750
00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:55,559
it's a similar process. But I've also seen it in

751
00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:59,719
my own experience, how they can really just obliterate somebody's

752
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,320
sense of self and just make them who they want

753
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,280
them to be because the need for Again, as a child,

754
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,679
I was desperate for affection, like a drowning man's desperate

755
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:15,920
for oxygen. So my trafficker came and showed me some

756
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,679
attention and he had me. Basically, I was so hungry

757
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,880
for someone to care about me. That's what he used.

758
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,719
And again and Elm in thet cases, others that's what happens.

759
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,079
I mean, you have the absence of a father and

760
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:33,199
other factors. They really just hone in on that and

761
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,119
they're so surgical in how they go after you.

762
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 5: Would it be fair to say that most people who

763
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,920
are engaging in trafficking other humans? Would you agree that

764
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,119
the mantle of sociopath really.

765
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,679
Speaker 6: Falls for them? And also there's something called the dark triad.

766
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,800
It is something really and that to me, I called

767
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,840
that because I saw people ain't like that when I

768
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,599
would try, and I called that evil. The dark triad

769
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:02,880
is a is three different diagnosed along with psychopathy that

770
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:06,559
discreates someone who is just a monster. And so when

771
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:10,079
you have people who are the Dark Triad, it is

772
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,039
just unstoppable and it's just horrific what they are able

773
00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:16,559
to accomplish, what they're able to do.

774
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 2: Can you define the dark triad for us?

775
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 6: I can look up it's narcissism, psychopathy, and I think sociopathy.

776
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:27,840
I think it's all three of them rolled up in

777
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,280
the one Wow. But it's just these three different diagnoses

778
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,840
that really lend themselves and we just begin to study

779
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:44,760
that and what's what they mean? Narcissism machiavellianism and subclinical psychopathy,

780
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,400
so that that's what it is. And these people are

781
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,800
just they're just pure evil, pure darkness, and you just

782
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,599
want to stay away from. I Again, I was very

783
00:43:55,639 --> 00:44:00,239
fortunate in my own experience that I became too valuable.

784
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,039
I saw these individuals and they were like a lawnmower

785
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,880
going over people. They would just eradicate anything in their path.

786
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,159
And there's a lot more out there than we really

787
00:44:12,639 --> 00:44:16,239
know about. But again, sosiopathy, I think is a baseline.

788
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,800
Like Christen, you build from there because you look at

789
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,719
Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer was going after young men and

790
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,360
just twisted psychopath. I think you've tried the dark triad.

791
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,280
So there are a lot of people out there who

792
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,679
are just plain evil. There's a guy, he's dead now

793
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,000
in the UK called Jimmy Saville, and he actually worked

794
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,320
for the BBC and he actually had his own show

795
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,280
where he had economically challenged kids on his show, and

796
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,519
he molested thousands of kids and he actually volunteered in

797
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:53,320
children's hospitals. So there are people like this out there

798
00:44:53,639 --> 00:44:56,760
right now, and again that's where educational awareness is so

799
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,039
key to begin to stop these individuals their tracks, because

800
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,599
when Jerry Sandusky was arrested, it got upset because I

801
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:09,119
think people assumed that because Jerry Sanduski was arrested, all

802
00:45:09,159 --> 00:45:12,800
those sexual predators were off the streets. And so I

803
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,199
wrote a column for the Washington Times for several years,

804
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,000
and one of my articles was I wrote, what if

805
00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:21,719
Jerry Sandusky had never been arrested and they moved next

806
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,840
door to you, how would you know what's going on

807
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,239
and what the risk was from him. You have to

808
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,800
understand that there are thousands of these people out there.

809
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,519
Only through education and awareness and really understanding what grooming

810
00:45:36,559 --> 00:45:39,400
looks like that we can stop them. We talk about

811
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,480
saving one shell, it's probably not going to be one shell.

812
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:44,840
We talk about these rings and there can be ten

813
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,119
twenty thirty kids being trafficked in this ring. They took

814
00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:52,000
down a website Europool, which is the pulling of the

815
00:45:52,159 --> 00:45:55,320
FBI in Europe. Just got a website that had a pedophole.

816
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,599
Was had ninety thousand subscribers. You probably know this even

817
00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:04,519
more just spable is that BusinessWeek magazine found a pedophile

818
00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:08,440
shopping seat shopping site on the dark web and the

819
00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:12,119
youngest age requested for boys was one, and the youngest

820
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:14,480
age for girls with zero. Because these individuals are go

821
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:19,159
after infants too, So it's really crazy what kind of

822
00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:21,519
stuff on the dark web especially, and it's all whack

823
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:25,559
a mole and these pedophile websites on the dark Web.

824
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,559
The entry fee is a video of yourself blesting a child.

825
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,519
That's the boat of fetist to get into and law

826
00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:36,719
enforcement knows this so to get into, but once you're in,

827
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,920
it's like a costco of depravity. They have manuals on

828
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,119
how to bless kids. Gillian Maxwell was a procureur. They

829
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,559
have people on the dark Web on these websites that

830
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,960
you tell them what age, what hair color, what you're

831
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:52,800
looking for, and they'll go find a kid for you.

832
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,599
So these websites on the dark Web, and again it's

833
00:46:56,639 --> 00:46:59,400
all whack a mole with the FBI and Department of

834
00:46:59,519 --> 00:47:03,400
Justice because it's all encrypted. So they take one down,

835
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,719
another one pops up. So again it's about law enforcement

836
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:11,239
and they're working with all these amazing universities developed these

837
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,800
digital tools be able to go after Now there's a

838
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,800
really amazing tool and it's called a I think it's

839
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,079
a fingerprint where the actually will they'll digitally fingerprint child

840
00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:23,599
abuse images and track where they go, and that when

841
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:26,840
they go after the people who access these images and

842
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,079
really just them down. But again, it's this very prolific

843
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:35,079
and unfortunately solucrative. I told somebody article that in the UK,

844
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,519
boys we're going for five thousand a night, and that's

845
00:47:38,639 --> 00:47:41,679
just gotten worse over time. It's the kind of money

846
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:46,360
that people will pay. The other problem is cryptocurrency, is

847
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,320
that a lot of traffickers and predators are using cryptocurrency

848
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:53,840
to conduct transactions. So we're trying to have law enforcement

849
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,000
get better at following these individuals and stop them from

850
00:47:57,039 --> 00:48:00,239
actually just buying and selling human beings.

851
00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:04,599
Speaker 5: Kids with all of this sort of depravity and the

852
00:48:04,639 --> 00:48:07,159
sort of whack them all mentality here, do you ever

853
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:10,199
have days where you feel like, man, we're just trying

854
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:12,360
to sweep up the ocean one wave at a time

855
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,000
as it washed us onto the shore. Do you ever

856
00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:16,079
have days where you just feel like this is never

857
00:48:16,119 --> 00:48:16,800
going to get better.

858
00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 6: There's something called compassion burnout, which is when when you

859
00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:24,840
let your health slide from going after and trying to

860
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,199
make a difference. And I learned very early on how

861
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,920
to control that. But again, our big mantra is one

862
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,159
victim at a time. We don't look at the expanse

863
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,079
of it. We just try to focus on one victim

864
00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:38,239
at a time. But again, people like you and Bill,

865
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:42,079
Katherine Ramslin and others who are really making a difference

866
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:44,360
in getting the word out there about this, they really

867
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,079
inspire me. You guys inspire me. And I have so

868
00:48:47,159 --> 00:48:52,039
many wonderful people who are so supportive. And again with

869
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:55,239
the shoer Kills Apprentice, I've been contacted. I just got

870
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,199
a message from Brazil from someone. People are just incredibly supportive.

871
00:48:59,559 --> 00:49:01,400
But no, so I have to say that you really

872
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,840
feel like God gave me a purpose in going after

873
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,639
this darkness, and he gave me a wonderful life, a

874
00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:11,760
beautiful wife, two beautiful kids, and gave me a happiness

875
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,679
that I could never have dreamed of. And so I

876
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,039
have to pay him back by fighting this fight and

877
00:49:17,079 --> 00:49:20,119
going after this darkness. And again, I think all of

878
00:49:20,199 --> 00:49:23,239
us together can be a firewall against that darkness, because

879
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,039
hope can be like a loss and a car keys.

880
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,800
You may be able to find it right away, look around,

881
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,719
you'll come up with it. You can find that hope

882
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,679
inside yourself and you can cultivate that and really go

883
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,079
it on to it because hope can overcome anything and

884
00:49:37,199 --> 00:49:38,480
love can overcome anything.

885
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 5: And I can't think of a better note for us

886
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,960
to end on. Jerome, thank you so much for joining

887
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:45,719
us today. We really appreciate it.

888
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,679
Speaker 6: It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much.

889
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,639
Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of

890
00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:53,039
mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll

891
00:49:53,039 --> 00:49:53,960
see you next time.

892
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:07,119
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

893
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:08,639
Another Dog Productions.

894
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,559
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

895
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

896
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

897
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

898
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

899
00:50:26,599 --> 00:50:29,199
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

900
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,159
Murders on Facebook.

901
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

902
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,559
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903
00:50:36,039 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.