WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:13.599 Welcome to the Oath and the Office. I am John 2 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:15.679 Fugel saying, and I am so pleased and proud to 3 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:19.359 welcome the star of our show, the Mac, the Alpha 4 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:21.879 and the Omega, the Ayah Toola of Rock and ROLLA 5 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:24.320 the man who enriches the lives of students in the 6 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:27.120 poly side apartment at Brown but only because he was 7 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:30.039 kicked out of Wu Tang clan for being too hardcore. 8 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:30.920 People of Earth. 9 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.479 You wanted the best, you got the best I give you, 10 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.320 Professor Corey Bretschneider, How was that was that? 11 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:37.399 An okay intro? Professor? 12 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:40.560 I love this, John, I mean honestly, I'll come to 13 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:43.079 do the show to talk about the constitutional issues, the 14 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:46.719 threat to democracy. But the thing that really gives me 15 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:49.679 pleasure is that each week these intros get more and 16 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:51.280 more absurd and brilliant. 17 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:52.159 So think I listened. 18 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:54.640 I'm sure that if I find the right code to 19 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:56.520 being your hype man, I can get into law school. 20 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.399 It seems like that's how it works. Professor. 21 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:01.079 It's good to see you. It's been a pretty crazy 22 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:03.560 couple of days. And one of the themes that you 23 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:08.519 often cover in your work is that democracies don't usually 24 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.879 collapse through one awful dramatic event. Instead, leaders gradually turn 25 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:18.560 institutions designed to serve the public into tools that serve themselves. 26 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:20.239 And let's talk. 27 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:23.480 About America the sweet Cory, because nothing says the intel 28 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:25.920 community is in good hands, like Donald Trump getting up 29 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.599 at three point fifty four in the morning and changing 30 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:31.959 his Director of National Intelligence nominee on social media like 31 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:36.159 he's rearranging his fantasy football lineups. I don't know, professor. 32 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:38.000 I have many questions about what's going on here. 33 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:38.560 I think I. 34 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:42.640 Understand the Office of Director of National Intelligence. It impacts 35 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:45.959 all of our lives. It oversees seventeen intel agencies, handles 36 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:51.000 classified information, and coordinates counter terrorism, cyber threats, and foreign 37 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:55.719 espionage and nuclear risks. So logically, Donald Trump puts Bill Pulty, 38 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.799 a mortgage official with no national security experience, in that job. 39 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:03.879 I've got it right, so far right. And then he says, okay, well, 40 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:07.239 it's temporary. Here's my nominee, and it's going to be 41 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.479 Jay Clayton. But just before he's nominated, Jake Clayton goes 42 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:15.639 on CNBC two weeks ago and suggested there might be 43 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:20.520 possible opportunities where conceivably, you never know, it could have happened. 44 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:25.680 California engaged in election fraud, and within days of saying that, 45 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:27.560 because you know, again, if you're in MAGA and you 46 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.080 say California election fraud, that's like having a PhD. 47 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:30.439 Right. 48 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.800 So then Trump announces he's the nominee to oversee our 49 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.879 satellite intel and our covert opts this guy because he 50 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.840 thinks they cheated in California, or at least he's willing 51 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:44.039 to lie about that. So last week Jake Clayton was 52 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.560 the future of American Intelligence professor. This week Bill Pulti, 53 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:52.039 who never left, is back from the G seven. Trump 54 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.520 canceled his own nominee Senate hearing, and I guess said 55 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.560 the quiet part out loud. This country gets no confirmed 56 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:03.520 intelligence chief unless the state passes the incredibly unpopular Save 57 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:07.400 America Act with his Proof of Citizenship voter bill that 58 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:11.199 takes rights away from Americans, makes it harder for women 59 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:15.159 to vote, and reauthorizes FIZA on his term. So Bill Poulti, 60 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.240 the mortgage guy with no national security experience, is back 61 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:21.199 in the chair. Have I gotten this right? 62 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:21.560 Corey? 63 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:22.680 Have I gotten the facts right? 64 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:25.759 So far, there have been a lot of twist and turns. 65 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:28.560 This episode, we're going to talk about Bill Poulty. We're 66 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:30.520 going to go in depth on this FISA law and 67 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:32.879 explain what it is, where it comes from, and why 68 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:36.080 it's so dangerous at this moment. And our theme is 69 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.199 going to be transparency, understanding what's happening more generally in 70 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:43.120 this country when it comes to threats to democracy. And 71 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:45.520 of course I don't want to miss the fact that 72 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.240 Katie Fang, in this incredible lawsuit trying to get transparency 73 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:51.120 in the Epstein files, is going to be our guest 74 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.680 in the second half. And the connection to this theme 75 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:59.639 is really about understanding the secrecy that exists within the 76 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.319 exact A branch, not just in regard to the Epstein files. 77 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.719 We've been focused on that, but I just want to 78 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:07.360 set this up. You know, we have an apparatus, a 79 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:11.520 national intelligence apparatus, which has a court, its own court, 80 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.439 the PIES, a court which isn't subject to the exact 81 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.879 same rules as normal Article three courts. And there are 82 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.199 powers that have been granted not just through the nineteen 83 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.360 seventy eight FIS A law, but through its extension by 84 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:29.199 George W. Bush to really give the ability to intelligence 85 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:33.600 officers without a warrant to spy in American citizens. 86 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:35.000 Now there are rules, you know, it. 87 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:37.800 Has to be in regard to people outside the country 88 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.639 who are suspected of possible threats to the US government. 89 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:43.399 But I don't want to lose the bottom line. 90 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.600 What this law does in its current form is that 91 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:50.639 it gives this administration the ability to skip the Fourth Amendment, 92 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.680 to skip the protection against Unreasonable Search and Seizure, to 93 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.160 skip the warrant process, and to spy in American citizens. 94 00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:59.720 Now, you know, you could say George W. 95 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:03.319 Bus or Obama or Clinton, maybe it wasn't so bad. 96 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:07.680 But now we're talking about and not just Trump, but 97 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:12.439 this Bill Poulty, somebody without national security clearance through Senators 98 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:15.800 are rightly worried, is going to spy on American citizens 99 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:19.079 in order to shut down Trump's opponents and to help him. 100 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.439 Because how did Trump go after Letitia James? How did 101 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.040 Trump go after the New York State Attorney General going 102 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.480 after mortgage payments? And He's hired the mortgage guy to 103 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:31.360 go after to use that, to use the National security 104 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:35.399 apparatus to go after his perceived enemies for their real 105 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:36.240 estate dealings. 106 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:37.240 That's what it comes down. 107 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.680 And this from a guy who launders money for the 108 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.600 Russians with New York State real estate. I mean, Republicans 109 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.040 wanted to quickly confirm this guy Clayton because they're trying 110 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.279 to solve the surveillance, you know, and intelligence operations. So 111 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.480 Trump's trying everything now to this voter I D. 112 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:50.879 Bill. 113 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:56.079 He's essentially blackmailing the Republicans on his own side, right, 114 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:59.000 That's that's not going to work. This is a very 115 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.839 I mean, the Same of America Act is deeply unpopular. 116 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:04.600 This is the one that says if women have changed 117 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:08.160 their names in their lifetimes, gotten married, or for whatever reason, 118 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:10.680 you're become widowed, you might not be able to vote. 119 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.680 You better find your birth certificate. I mean, we have 120 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:19.639 intelligence leadership and national security surveillance, an election administration all 121 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.160 becoming LinkedIn here. This seems like a really potentially dangerous fusion. 122 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.120 Professor, you know, it's a great topic for this podcast. 123 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.519 We're willing to go on depth and to unpack things. 124 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:30.240 Look at all the different balls in the air that 125 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.639 we have. We have the possible nomination of Jake Clayton, 126 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:37.319 who was the SEC chair, who was the US attorney 127 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:40.199 for the Southern District of New York, whose past Senate 128 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:43.240 confirmation is seen, as you know, despite what you rightly 129 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.759 pointed out in the horrible statements, not part of Trump 130 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.160 world in the way Trump wants. And then you have 131 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:52.480 a pure loyalist and Bill Poulti, somebody that couldn't know 132 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:55.879 way could be confirmed by the Senate. And yet he's 133 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:57.800 you know, toying which one am I going to give 134 00:06:57.839 --> 00:06:59.759 you and what the Senate. 135 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:00.360 Is rightly doing. 136 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.839 And you know, that's the optimistic thing here is they're 137 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.879 seeing the danger of Bill Poulti as the acting chief 138 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:07.959 and they're especially seeing this is the thing I really 139 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.480 don't want to lose that for so much of American history, 140 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:15.360 our laws have been set up to delegate massive power 141 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.079 out of trust to the executive branch to the president. Okay, 142 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:20.480 we're going to skip warrants here. 143 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:21.720 There's a war on terror. 144 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.360 We're going to trust that whatever administration is isn't going 145 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:29.240 to use it to shut down descent to spy on opponents. Now, 146 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.040 with Bill Poultie, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he's 147 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:35.319 going to do. And thankfully we have senators, including I 148 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.480 mentioned Senator Widen, who will be our guest in a 149 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.879 few weeks, who are recognizing this is a danger, not 150 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.040 just because Bill Poulti is a danger, but because legislation 151 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.839 that enables somebody in that position to skip warrants, it 152 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:49.800 puts them in a perfect position if they want to 153 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:52.920 destroy democracy, to spy on opponents, to shut down descent. 154 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:55.360 It is scary, and that's. 155 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:56.240 What this fight is about. 156 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:59.800 And thankfully, you know, the story easily could have been skipped, 157 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:03.600 this renewal of Fiza and the section that was added. 158 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:05.360 Y stuff to be at our show with Cory it 159 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:05.879 really is. 160 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.639 But I'm telling you, man, if we don't recognize what's happening, 161 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.399 this is the doorway in which it's just a little 162 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.680 bit of democracy gets destroyed, a lot of it using 163 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.439 the National Security Operatus to spy on opponents. 164 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:20.759 Well, and they said when they did this bizarre three 165 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.399 o'clock in the morning lineup change, well, the president enjoys 166 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.639 a slight bit of intrigue, that's what they said. The 167 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:30.160 President enjoys like it's the finale of Survivor. 168 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:30.720 You know, there's a. 169 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:34.240 Slight bit of the apprentice American Intelligence apparatus. 170 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:35.720 He enjoys a slight bit of it. 171 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.600 Like he's still programming a reality show. One week it's Tulsi, 172 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.000 that it's Bill Poulty, then it's Jay Clayton, then it's 173 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:45.240 Bill Paulty again, and I guess next week it's. 174 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:45.519 Gonna be Kid Rock. 175 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.759 But Professor, what would the founders have thought about a 176 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:55.240 chief executive effectively saying I refuse to move forward on 177 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:59.120 intelligence leadership unless I get the election law. 178 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.919 I want you know what ties all of these different 179 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:03.679 threads together. 180 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:05.480 You know, what do all this save act? 181 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.759 What does all this have to do with the confirmation 182 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.840 of the Director of National Intelligence or the use of 183 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.120 acting of acting DNI. What it has to do with 184 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:17.440 is that Trump is thinking about one thing, how do 185 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:18.600 I spy on my opponents? 186 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:20.399 How do I destroy them? How do I hang on 187 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:22.840 to power? How do I not lose the mid terms? 188 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.559 And all of these things are his different mechanisms. That's 189 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:29.480 the lens that he's seeing it all through to well, 190 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:32.200 to shut down our civil liberties, shut down our democracy, 191 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.559 and extend his own power. If you see it all 192 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.639 through there, then it all makes complete sense. Those these 193 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:39.960 are the bargaining ships that he's trying to use. You 194 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:42.840 asked about the Founders, and we really need to pivot 195 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:46.360 to history, because you know, the Founders were worried about 196 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:49.360 the war powers that in England, the monarch had the 197 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:52.519 ability to initiate war, to carry it out. And with 198 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.840 those war powers came the danger of shutdown of national 199 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:59.440 civil liberties, of civil liberties within the United States, and 200 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:02.559 so they them up. They limited the president's power in 201 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.799 Article two. And what we've done in the twentieth century 202 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.440 over time, and even Carter, who in his signing statement 203 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:12.600 Offiza talked about the need to balance, as he put it, 204 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.120 human rights and his speech signing the law human rights 205 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.720 on the one hand, and also the need for national security. 206 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:21.320 That's what he was concerned to do. He created an 207 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:22.480 apparatus which was. 208 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.720 Then extended during the G. W. Bush administration to. 209 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.000 Allow for undermining the very protections that the Framers put 210 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:32.679 in there against the president that was going to shut 211 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.360 down our civil liberties. And I'll just mention again the 212 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.080 most important not just the limits in Article two, but 213 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:41.480 the Fourth Amendment, which says government can't just spy on 214 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.720 us with no reason. It needs reason in order to 215 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:48.600 do what it's doing. And there's a restriction on unreasonable search, 216 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:53.679 in seizure, the monarchist idea that king could simply just 217 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.840 spy on or shut down his opposition. No, they were 218 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.960 resisting that, but through a series of laws, including five. 219 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:03.559 There's a danger of undermining that, especially and I can't 220 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:08.600 emphasize this enough, especially in the hands of Director of 221 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.639 National Intelligence, who's going to use all these tools that 222 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.240 the government has to shut down opponents. I will say 223 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.519 one other thing, which is a lot of the debate, 224 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:21.519 is about Jake Clayton. Well, if Jake Clayton's in charge, 225 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:24.639 maybe we can reauthorize FIZA, we can have all this. 226 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:26.720 I met Jay Clayton, I got to shake his hand 227 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.200 at Brown, been told by a lot of people he's 228 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.399 a decent guy. You know. Maybe, but I don't think 229 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:36.399 we can hand over this power to this administration, whether 230 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.320 it's to a confirm Jake Clayton or not. 231 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:39.759 So I don't want to just. 232 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.720 Talk about the need for a confirmed Director of National Intelligence. 233 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.279 One thing I'm very excited to talk to Senator Widen 234 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:48.320 about is the reform of our laws to not trust 235 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.000 that a president. 236 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.320 Is going to abide by the Fourth Amendment. 237 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.639 We need the actual protection and oversight of courts and 238 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.080 so No, I don't like this idea of simply affirming FIS. 239 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:02.279 It needs to be reformed. 240 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:05.480 I believe why it is among those. I'm also hearing 241 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:07.480 about people like Ram Paul joining. 242 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:10.440 This after love being on his side. That's great. 243 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:12.519 Well, we're going to take the help that we can 244 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:14.639 get at this point because what we really need to 245 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:16.039 do is to reform these laws. 246 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.120 No, we're gonna have to be awkward roommates with a 247 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.919 lot of libertarians that make this work. 248 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:23.480 You know, I love that John awkward roommates. 249 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.279 It's everything that we've talked about though, because we keep 250 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.120 expecting it's going to be like Star Wars episode three, right, 251 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.679 like Revenge of the Sith, like some big thing's going 252 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.679 to happen, and we will watch in real time as 253 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:38.399 our republic becomes an empire in falls where it's going 254 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:42.279 to and in reality, No, it's it's just gradual democratic erosion, 255 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.000 and it's easy to miss it because it doesn't happen 256 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:50.200 through big operatic events. It's just through boring, procedural maneuvering. 257 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.159 And now our intel services are being run through like 258 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.679 midnight social media posts and loyalty tests and Senate panic attacks. 259 00:12:58.399 --> 00:12:59.759 What could possibly go wrong? 260 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:01.840 And I have to go a way to put it, John, 261 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:03.559 And I'll just say one other thing, which is so 262 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.720 much of the apparatus is already in place. Our democracy 263 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:10.679 was eroded over time without knowing it, all with the 264 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.840 belief that, oh, a president wouldn't survey his political opponents, 265 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.039 wouldn't use this information to shut down so. 266 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:19.600 Both he would ever be so pathetic and thirs to 267 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:22.480 do that in the open, My god, no president would 268 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.840 have so little gain. They let themselves be seen doing that, 269 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.639 they'd have dignity at least. 270 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:27.480 In the past they hit it. 271 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:29.440 But you know, I really think we've got to rethink 272 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.240 the whole structure, this idea of trusting the executive branch 273 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:33.840 when it comes to our civil liberties. 274 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:34.399 I don't think so. 275 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.279 The Framers put the Fourth Amendment there for a reason, 276 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:38.600 and it has to be enforced. 277 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:39.000 Well. 278 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.519 That leads us to Gavin Newsom over there in California 279 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.600 saying that Donald Trump's DOJ is investigating both him and 280 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.559 his wife. Now, you know, congrats Gavin Newsom. If that's true. 281 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.639 I know it will help with the fundraising and getting 282 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.759 the campaign kicked off. But whether those investigations produce any charges. 283 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:01.759 The governor's point is that the investigation itself can become punishment. 284 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:04.840 And we've talked about this. Donald Trump's not going after 285 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.480 Jim Comby because he believes Comy's a risk to people 286 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:11.600 for assembling seashells a certain way. 287 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:12.519 And he's not. 288 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:14.399 Going after Komy to try to put him in jail 289 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.399 for He's trying to go after Coby to bankrupt Comy 290 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.200 with legal costs. That's what he's done his entire life. 291 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:22.879 He's got billions of dollars in inherited wealth, and we 292 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.600 have learned that if you have the money, the court system, 293 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:29.679 the judicial branch, can be a thing you use to 294 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:32.120 hurt people. This is something I don't think the founders 295 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.039 ever could have foreseen that you can just sue people, 296 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.279 sue people, sue people because you know they can't. Oh, 297 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:39.720 you don't pay your contractors, let him sue you, and 298 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:40.480 if they sue you. 299 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:41.080 Sue them back. 300 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.080 This is this guy's whole life, and he's got an angle. 301 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.679 He's trying to punish someone, and he's using the libres 302 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.720 of our government to hurt people for telling the truth 303 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.879 about him. You've talked so much about how authoritarian systems 304 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:59.200 weaponize legal institutions. Do you agree that investigations like this 305 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.279 themsel are the power abuse. 306 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:03.480 Yeah. 307 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:06.399 You know, in the seventeen ninety eight shutdown of the opposition, 308 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.919 there were convictions for criticizing the president. They did it 309 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.039 in the open, and they relied on the courts to 310 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.960 imprison people. Well, this is a different technique because courts 311 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:20.240 repeatedly are rejecting these lawsuits. They will when it comes 312 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.000 to Gavin Newsom. And let's not leave out too that 313 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.519 Gavin Newsom is saying that his wife is also a 314 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:30.399 target of this investigation. And yet what we've seen is 315 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.360 that and you know, Trump is expanding this power rep 316 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.360 but what we've seen is courts refusing to act on 317 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:38.480 these lawsuits. And I think that is what will happen 318 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.080 in the case of Gavin Newsom. They refuse to move 319 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.440 forward with the Letitia James case. I don't think this 320 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:47.000 James comy ridiculous lawsuit is going anywhere. We'll see judges 321 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.639 and if need be, juries pushed back. But as we 322 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.840 talked about last week, and really this story is an 323 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.320 extension of our discussion with Harry Linman, who was in 324 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.559 the Department of justice for a long period of time. 325 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:01.159 It's not about winning, it's about say people. It's about 326 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.480 the chilling effect. And we talked on the Oath in 327 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.279 the Office Substack last week about the chilling effect. 328 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.159 The idea is that you just have to threaten people. 329 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.120 You don't have to actually carry out the threat to 330 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.320 make them or. 331 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.000 You don't even need chargers to be filed. 332 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.919 And that's what's going on with these ridiculous lawsuits. And 333 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.960 you add to the fact that this ridiculous acting Attorney 334 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.960 General thinks that even if there's no basis in law 335 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:26.000 that the president of the United States has the right 336 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.559 the power to do that. You know, the first person 337 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.159 to say, hey, you can't do that should be the 338 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.440 Attorney general. This guy is the president's personal lawyer who 339 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.200 sees Article two creating the presidency as a kind of dictatorship. 340 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.000 The president can do anything he wants. Now, even if 341 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.480 the lawsuits don't go anywhere, and I don't think they will, 342 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.480 it doesn't matter because they're going to get the effect 343 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.399 that they want. And when we saw universities backing down 344 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.720 to Trump, when we saw those law firms, including firms 345 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.200 that surprise me like Scatin Arms, backing down. 346 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:55.960 That was the chilling effect. They didn't wen't going to 347 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:56.480 win in court. 348 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:57.080 It didn't matter. 349 00:16:57.159 --> 00:16:59.039 People didn't want to deal with it. And that's what's 350 00:16:59.120 --> 00:16:59.840 going on here. 351 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.079 I mean, does the Constitution provide adequate safeguards against a 352 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:08.200 president using his investigative powers against his political rivals? I mean, 353 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.720 this show has kind of turned into, oh, here's something 354 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:13.240 else the Founding fathers didn't think of. 355 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.279 I mean, all these. 356 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:19.359 Stress tests, does the Constitution provide any kind of safeguards 357 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:20.240 against this sort of thing? 358 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.920 Well, you know some of the framers, Patrick Henry is 359 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:23.880 I'm fond of quoting. 360 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:25.319 He did see the danger. 361 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.519 He was like, this presidency that you're creating an Article 362 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.240 two is so powerful and the checks so weak, the courts, 363 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.240 the Congress. 364 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.039 They're going to just blow through them. Now. 365 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.799 What has worked in the past is citizens, you know, 366 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:41.599 on this show and others, and the election the midterms, 367 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:43.880 standing up and saying no, we're not going to deal 368 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.039 with this. Now there is another check, and that's jury's 369 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.279 I talk in my book about the Nixon grand jury, 370 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.279 the grand juries, and the Founding period who refused to 371 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.240 indict political opponents of John Adams. What all of those 372 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.599 have in common is that it was not public officials, 373 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:01.000 it was citizens who pushed back. And here, I think 374 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:02.960 that's going to be part of it. And let's not 375 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.799 forget the heroism. You know, people like James Comy aren't 376 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:09.200 backing down. Gavin Hoosome, of course, is not backing down. 377 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.960 So you know, it's time for bravery. And that's what 378 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.279 we're starting to see, and let's continue to celebrate that. 379 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:15.039 Corey. 380 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:16.559 Before we get to the break, I just want to 381 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.279 ask what parallels scare you the most here? Is it 382 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.640 Nixon or Hungary or Turkey or other democracies in decline. 383 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.440 Well, you know, democracy is so fragile, and I always 384 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.960 go back to that John Adams period of seventeen ninety 385 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.880 eight because the right to free speech is so precarious. 386 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.640 The Supreme Court is supposed to protect it. 387 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.319 But what scares me about seventeen ninety eight is that 388 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.920 the Supreme Court lobbied Samuel Chase, lobbied for this Edition Act, 389 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:43.200 and then sat on the trials to shut it down. 390 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.119 So the idea that we're going to just have the 391 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.279 Supreme Court protect us or the judiciary protect us, I'm 392 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.440 worried about that both because there are ways through legislation. 393 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:53.599 That's what we've been talking about in the fis of 394 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.839 law and its extension to evade the Constitution. There are 395 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.000 ways of shutting down free speech by ignoring courts. So 396 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.880 we really need a revival in this country of our 397 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.319 commitment to constitutionalism. And in the meantime, what we've got 398 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.559 is Gavin Newsom and James call me and Letitia James 399 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.200 and people refusing to back down. And that's why we're 400 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:14.799 doing this podcast. 401 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.160