WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:20.519 Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, 2 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:22.960 how you doing. This is Cliff, your host of Destiny, 3 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:25.760 and I do hope you're doing well today, you know. 4 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:28.199 Right now, and this is being pre recorded, I am 5 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:34.119 climbing pyramids in Guatemala, at Tical and Elmador. I'll be 6 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:38.399 reporting back with a number of interviews of various people 7 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:42.240 that I see there, as well as some interesting video. 8 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:45.560 I have a camera I'm going to strap onto my 9 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:50.560 backpack as I'm climbing these pyramids. A couple of them 10 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:57.840 and the Tacoll Archaeological Park have staircases. And when you 11 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.399 see these staircases, they're in I mean it's like one 12 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:06.159 hundred and plus feet in the air. And these aren't 13 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:10.200 the staircases that are part of the stone pyramid. These 14 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:14.719 are metal staircases that have been built that are alongside 15 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:18.079 the pyramid so that you can easily get up and 16 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.680 down without climbing the sensitive stonework that has been laid 17 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:30.400 and carved into the to the pyramid. But they're very 18 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.879 carefully positioned next to the pyramid so as you climb 19 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.200 excuse me, as you climb the stairs, you can see 20 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:44.040 the pyramid on your right. It's too steep and the 21 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:50.040 angle is too severe, and the possibilities of falling are huge, 22 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:55.920 even for the most abled individual. So I'm going to 23 00:01:55.959 --> 00:02:00.560 strap like a video camera onto my backpack can see 24 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:05.400 me as I'm climbing this pyramid. This is one of 25 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.639 my bucket list visits because I've been to a number 26 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:12.479 of Mayan sights, but as I've mentioned before, they're all 27 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:17.960 in Mexico. In Mexico, other than a handful of archaeological 28 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.360 parks with pyramids, it doesn't let you touch the pyramids. 29 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:26.000 This is a real serious problem, and it looks like 30 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:31.080 the Catholic Church not only has restricted the ability to 31 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:36.599 meditate or perform services with a shaman. With a Mayan shaman, 32 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.039 it could be an Aztec shaman, or could be any 33 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:45.039 miser American shaman. They don't want any kind of connection. 34 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:55.080 They're so threatened by these indigenous practices that you will 35 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.759 be removed from the park if they suspect that you 36 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:08.360 are meditating, chanting, praising, whatever shamanistic ritually you're doing. Will 37 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:13.240 be is a serious no. No, I don't think that 38 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:17.599 they give you tickets which would result in a payment, 39 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:21.879 but I do know that in a recent situation, someone 40 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.479 a woman climbed El Castillo, the main pyramid at Chichinitsa 41 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:31.400 in Yucatea, Mexico, and not only was she dragged and 42 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.080 placed in jail, she was given us something like a 43 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:40.039 twenty five hundred dollars fine. She just walked underneath the 44 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:44.120 fence that surrounded the pyramid and she started climbing it 45 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:51.080 and people were shocked. Now that has been closed for 46 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:55.360 coming on twenty years. I had a chance to climb 47 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:59.000 El Castillo twice before they closed it down, and that 48 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:02.560 was the night first time nineteen ninety six, and then 49 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:07.039 the second time, I think it was I want to 50 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:11.759 say nineteen ninety nine or two thousand, and they just 51 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:13.560 decided that they weren't going to have any more people 52 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.680 climbing it, and they just started doing this across the board. 53 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.079 I missed out on Ushmol, which is one of my 54 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:26.720 favorite parks in Yucatam, and you can't do anything about it. 55 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:33.519 And this is why I'm so excited to be visiting Guatemala, 56 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.240 because not only is there a number of Mayan branches 57 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:42.279 there with different dialects, but the museums are world class, 58 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:48.600 and also the access to these wonderful pyramids that are 59 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.000 made to interact with. In the future programs, we'll talk 60 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:57.000 about that. But you're supposed to interact with the pyramids. 61 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.600 You're supposed to sit there next to them and meditate. 62 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.199 But we'll get into that. So I'm actually climbing pyramids 63 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:06.240 right now and I'll report back to you. But today's 64 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:12.439 program is a special one. We haven't talked about nightmares. 65 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.519 We've talked about dreams quite a bit. But there are 66 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.680 a number of clinics and the one we're featuring today 67 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:25.240 is in the Midwest, and the guest today is doctor 68 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:30.480 Greg Mayor, and he's a psychiatrist that runs this clinic. 69 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.920 There's a number of people, a growing number of people 70 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:43.040 who are traumatized by frequent and disruptive nightmares. Now I 71 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.959 have not personally had that many nightmares that I can remember, 72 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:53.920 but according to Greg, there are people who are so 73 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.720 disrupted by nightmares that they have to have two things happen. 74 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:02.920 Number One, they don't sleep, and disruptive sleep is devastating. 75 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:07.319 If you cannot sleep, your body's rhythms go nuts. You're 76 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.160 just you're ruined. You have to close your eyes and 77 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:13.240 you have to get rest. The other situation is that 78 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:19.000 people are given drugs that shifts their brain chemistry to 79 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.000 an effect that doesn't allow them to dream. I think 80 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.560 that's just as bad as not sleeping. But we'll hear 81 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:31.240 how that's a solution today. And there are other remedies 82 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.839 as well. Many of them are more natural, learning how 83 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:40.839 to meditate, how to eat and exercise more often, and 84 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:47.000 also to use intention before you go to sleep. But 85 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:51.480 that's something that is really a challenge. Now we're also speaking. 86 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:57.319 We're also covering the series of new dream Wisdom Oracles, 87 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:01.639 which are cards that you can used to tune into 88 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:08.879 your own dream states, so you can actually change the 89 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:12.879 type of dream you're having. But we are talking about nightmares, 90 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:17.560 and nightmares are not fun. So today's program is Nightmares 91 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:22.319 and the Dream Wisdom Oracle, and my guest is doctor 92 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:28.160 Greg Mayer. You know, I've been talking about our frames 93 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:29.920 now for a few weeks, and I got to tell 94 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.240 you it's really one of the best gifts you could 95 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:37.439 give somebody. You can upload hundreds of photographs and continually 96 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:40.399 change them to your liking. If you have a party, 97 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.439 if you have a friends over, they can see what's 98 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:47.000 going on. But what's even better is It's the perfect 99 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.600 gift for the holiday, especially Christmas. And you know it 100 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:54.920 has unlimited photos or videos. You can share photos and 101 00:07:55.000 --> 00:08:01.639 videos effortlessly straight from your phone all year long. For 102 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.720 limited time, visit Auraframes dot com and get forty five 103 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:11.199 dollars off aura's best selling carvermat frames name number one 104 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.759 by Wirecutter by using promo code Earth Ancients at checkout. 105 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:23.279 That's Aureaframes dot com promo code Earth Ancients. This is 106 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:28.120 an exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal, so order now 107 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:34.039 before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. 108 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:09.960 We've had a few different dream researchers on the program, 109 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:15.840 but today we have someone from the allopathic academia side 110 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.639 of things who has not only written a great deal, 111 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:23.000 but also has developed some new cards and a guidebook. 112 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.360 And I've always fascinated in dreams. I try to keep 113 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:31.559 a dream journal, but I don't know I'm not taking 114 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:33.519 it serious enough, and I think I should have. Given 115 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:38.080 the situation in our current reality here in the United States. 116 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:44.320 My guest today is doctor Greg Maher, who is a psychiatrist. 117 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:49.799 He is teaching in research acute trauma and nightmares. He 118 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.960 has one of the only nightmare clinics in the country. 119 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:56.480 We're going to learn a little more about that. And 120 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.440 he's also the author of The Wisdom of Dreams, Science 121 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.039 Synchronicity in the Language of the Soul, and he's coming 122 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.759 to us today from Michigan and I'm looking forward to 123 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.720 this interview. So Greg, welcome to Destiny. Great to have 124 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:12.559 you on the program. 125 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:15.000 Thanks a lot, it's pleasure to be here. 126 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:20.480 Let's go back a little bit into your interest in dreams. 127 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.759 I saw a Ted talk which was very well done. 128 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:26.399 By the way, that must have been a little nerve wracking. 129 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.279 But in that talk you mentioned that you have been 130 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.639 collecting dreams from a very young age. What got you, 131 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:38.000 I should say, what's the motivation for collecting dreams? 132 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.360 That's a good question, something that I always found fascinating. 133 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:47.279 But it must have been some kind of intuitive pull 134 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:51.200 to look inward that I've had since childhood, because I 135 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:55.000 started recording them since I was about ten or so. 136 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:59.960 Not it's just kind of sporadic, but I have a 137 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.919 files now of thousands and thousands, probably four or five 138 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.720 thousand dreams, and I got interested in dreams in high 139 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:10.440 school in a kind of an academic way. I started 140 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:15.240 reading Freud and Jung and just sort of got interested 141 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:19.159 in trying to understand what dreams meant. And because I 142 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:22.879 had this intuitive sense that they were telling me something 143 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:26.960 important but something mysterious that I didn't quite know what 144 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:30.159 it meant. And I think that was very enthralling to me. 145 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.720 So there was that whole for the mystery of it, 146 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:42.240 and I think I decided to do med school and psychiatry. 147 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:48.799 I think I imagined naively that psychiatrists would be really 148 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.440 interested in dreams and things like that, but they weren't. 149 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:58.279 So it was kind of a suppressed interest that I 150 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:03.639 had kind of like a closet interest for throughout a 151 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.600 lot of my career. But what actually happened is I 152 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:12.240 had a serious heart attack about fifteen or twenty years ago, 153 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.600 and I decided, after the heart attack, you know, I'm 154 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:18.039 just going to do what I want to do. And 155 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.840 then I sort of got more. I started exploring it 156 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:27.679 more academically and more sort of openly. That's when I 157 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.679 started writing the book, the first book. 158 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:36.799 Right, so, how many dreams have you collected? And we 159 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:41.279 just talked offline before we started that you are, I 160 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:45.200 guess digitizing them. You're using a talk AI system that 161 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:49.320 you're going to collect them, But what how many dreams 162 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.200 are there? And have you categorized them? 163 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:59.440 They're just by date and it's probably about it's something 164 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:04.720 like thousand, probably, And there're like old notebooks from when 165 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:07.720 I was a kid, like those old spiral bound notebooks, 166 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.919 and there's some interspersed with little diaries and stuff. So 167 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:13.279 it's hard to know what to do with. And I 168 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:18.879 don't even read my own handwriting that well anymore twenty 169 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.240 years ago. So I did find some software online that 170 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:30.080 is like a transcription software that is in the process 171 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.399 of kind of learning to read my hand rough So 172 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:35.279 once I, once I work out the bugs in that, 173 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:40.639 then I'll be able to have a file that then 174 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:45.120 I can use more sophisticated AI tools to look at 175 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:50.000 themes and maybe look at core. There's cool scales you 176 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.519 can use to look at like life stresses at different 177 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.480 times in your life, and you can I can see 178 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.879 if there's correlations with nightmares or certain kinds of dream images, 179 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:03.639 or have dreams changed over time. It'll be an interesting, 180 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.759 large project that I'm working on right now. 181 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:17.639 You mentioned you're Youngian psychiatrist does young bring into the 182 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:21.559 therapeutic approach the use of dreams. Does he identify dreams 183 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:26.159 as an important factor in UH patient research? 184 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:29.919 He does so very much. He's different than Freud. I mean, 185 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:31.919 Freud had a lot of really good ideas, but he 186 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:37.840 saw dreams more as symptoms, where Jung saw dreams as messages. 187 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.480 And that's kind of how I've always viewed dreams to 188 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:45.080 this It's it feels like they have something to say, 189 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:49.960 and something very very important to say. And Freud kind 190 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.039 of understood that. He called dreams the royal road to 191 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.399 the unconscious, but he saw it in a different way. 192 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.480 And what I love about Jung two is Jung sides 193 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:06.320 like the associations, your personal associations. He he thought that 194 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:13.039 we were connected to a deeper collective realm of images 195 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:17.080 and symbols, and that those come up in dreams even 196 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:21.440 though you don't even know about it. Like an example 197 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.320 that comes to mind is I I had a think 198 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.480 about witches when I was a kid. I had a 199 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:32.200 lot of knifemares about witches and I still occasionally dream 200 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.080 about witches. And a couple of years ago, I had 201 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:40.240 a dream and a woman was helping me protect myself 202 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:46.159 against witches, and she she told me to put rosemary 203 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.759 above my door. So I woke up and I said, well, 204 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.879 that's that's weird. And only after I looked it up 205 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.279 that I learned that rosemary historically has been used used 206 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.519 to keep which is a way. So somehow I knew 207 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.559 that without my conscious ego knowing that, which fits a 208 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:12.480 kind of union model. But we connect to this deeper realm. 209 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:17.480 Right, So let's really quickly talk about your education. You're psychiatrist, 210 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.799 which means that you're an MD who can prescribe medicines 211 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:28.240 and recommend surgical procedures in the allopathic mode. What did 212 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.000 you face as a student, I mean, if you're interested 213 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:37.200 in dreams, what did you face as a young student 214 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:38.559 in medical school? 215 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:45.600 Well, I sort of I like that part of psychiatry too. 216 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.919 I think there's important things, and I did a lot 217 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:54.799 of hospital work, and you know, there's medications and breaking 218 00:16:55.360 --> 00:17:00.799 people's confused, and that was all valid and that was 219 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:05.200 my day job, which I did well, and I did 220 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:07.000 a lot of teaching and things like that. But I 221 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.440 had the interest in dreams kind of on the side, 222 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.880 so I didn't really It took me a while to 223 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:16.559 sort of figure out how to use it. Actually, when 224 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:22.200 I was very early in my career, I happened to 225 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:27.240 share a floor in the hospital building with our sleep 226 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.759 research department, so I got to know that the guy 227 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.519 who ran that department a little bit. I was chatting 228 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.640 with him, telling him I was really interested in dreams 229 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:41.680 and stuff, and he kind of, in a very fatherly way, said, Greg, 230 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.599 there's no future in that. He kind of meant, there's 231 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.759 no grants, there's no money, You're not you know, forget 232 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.440 about that. That's not going to help you in your career. 233 00:17:54.119 --> 00:18:00.400 So that's interesting that that that kind of attitude. But 234 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:05.799 but I sort of kept the interest and then gradually, 235 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.920 like after the heart attack, started doing things more directly 236 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.599 with dreams and started working on the book and things 237 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:13.960 like that. 238 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.319 So the heart attack was a transitional period. It sounds 239 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.200 like it sounds like you were kind of on the 240 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:23.480 fence about diving in and then this health issue happened 241 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:28.079 and you're like, I'm going to more fully investigate. 242 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:30.599 It's kind of like, maybe the easiest way to describe 243 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.920 it's kind of like an alarm clock went off in 244 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.400 my head, like, oh, I don't have forever to wait, 245 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.720 you know, I better start doing what matters to me. 246 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:46.160 Wow. Yeah, interesting. All right, let's talk about dreams. Everybody dreams, right, 247 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.720 So if we dream, what is a dream? And should 248 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.599 we be paying attention to our dreams? 249 00:18:55.960 --> 00:19:00.599 I think there's we're actually unusual as a culture that 250 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.920 we don't pay attention to dreams. If you look historically 251 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:09.000 and geographically at other cultures, we were kind of the 252 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.359 out We think of ourselves as we're the normal ones, 253 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.519 but we're really the outliers that that ignore dreams. Dreams 254 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.559 have always been felt to be important. There's a there's 255 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.279 a bunch of dreams, and there's like twenty one dreams 256 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.160 in the Bible. They say that in Jesus's time there 257 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:31.079 were fifty like freelance dream interpreters in the temple areas. 258 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:35.920 So it's als something that has always been people have 259 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:40.279 always considered interesting and important and important in the sense 260 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:45.400 of sending messages. Now they're often viewed as like prophetic messages, 261 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.640 and there's there's some interesting truth to that, but they 262 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:54.160 also carry internal messages about who we are as people 263 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.359 and what we need to work on, and and it's 264 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:01.920 like it's like we have this friend inside that keeps 265 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.240 wanting to help us and share wisdom with us, and 266 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.160 we keep ignoring him. But he's there, he or she 267 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.279 probably she, but in any case, but I think that's 268 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.319 a good way to think about dreams. And we we 269 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.000 do dream a lot more than we remember. Dreams are 270 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:23.200 very easy to forget, and I think our brains are 271 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:28.839 probably wired that way that we forget dreams. But you know, 272 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:34.599 the we usually are better at remembering them if we 273 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:38.759 pay attention, like almost like set an intention. And I 274 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.880 sometimes do this, like, especially when i haven't remembered a 275 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.720 dream in a while, when I'm going to bed, I'll 276 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:52.000 kind of tell myself, you know, pay attention tonight, you know, 277 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.440 and kind of tell my in herself to talk to 278 00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:59.680 me because I'm ready and listening. 279 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:09.000 Yeah, this nightmare clinic is really unique. I think before 280 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.359 we started you mentioned that you you think there's probably 281 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.160 other clinics, but I have not heard of a of 282 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:19.839 a clinic that's focused specifically on nightmares. I would say 283 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.559 that's two sided. One sided would be that the nightmares 284 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:26.599 are so disruptive that people are getting poor sleep. That's 285 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.640 that's the medical side of it. And then the other 286 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.920 side of it would be what is the message. Why 287 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:39.319 why I clinic like this, Greg? And what what is 288 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:41.359 the what is the what's the goal? 289 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.319 Well, it's it's actually been a wonderful thing to do. 290 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:50.119 And because I've seen a number of patients who've been 291 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:55.000 having nightmares for many years that are very disruptive and 292 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.880 cause them a great deal of pain and anxiety, and 293 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:00.839 they don't know what to do with it. They don't 294 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:06.079 many of them have never told anyone before about the nightmares, 295 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:14.000 and sometimes they're recurring nightmares. So in terms of treatment, 296 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.519 I don't even want to call it treatment. I let's 297 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.400 call it like understanding and exploration. You want to make 298 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:24.319 sure there's nothing medical. But most patients are referred to 299 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:30.279 me by sleep doctors, so there isn't really anything medical 300 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:34.559 going on. So I try to explore the dream with them. 301 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.960 I have them tell me about the dream in detail, 302 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.039 and we sort of try to understand it together. What 303 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:50.559 the message might be. Oh interesting, And then sometimes sometimes 304 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.680 it's something to be listened to. But sometimes it's almost 305 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:58.359 like something's gone a little haywire. And especially after trauma. 306 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.920 About half of people after trauma, like if you're in 307 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.160 a bad car accident or an assault or something like 308 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.519 that half of people will have nightmare. So it's like 309 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.160 the it seems to be the mind's way of processing 310 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.000 that kind of trauma. So and it may be that 311 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.880 sometimes that kind of processing kind of goes haywire, it 312 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.119 goes on and on. So there's a techniques you can 313 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:28.079 use about reimaging the dream, like like imagining a different 314 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.359 ending and thinking about that different ending like to almost 315 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:37.079 like to induce a different dream. And that's that's very 316 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.240 helpful too. So both the understanding and the kind of 317 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:42.839 reimagining can be really helpful. 318 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:45.960 Can you give us an example of a patient that 319 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:51.559 you were working with that had these traumatic dreams or 320 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:57.680 these nightmares that you were that you you know, processed. 321 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:03.799 Yeah, with I'll kind of alter the story so it's 322 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.799 not anyone in particular, and I'm not violating anyone's confidentiality, 323 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.920 But well, I can give you a couple examples. One 324 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:16.240 that analysts friend of mine, she wouldn't mind my sharing 325 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:19.359 this because she shares it often, but she had a 326 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:26.160 recurring dream of being chased by a wolf and she 327 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.880 was terrified and running away from the wolf. That she 328 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.160 was talking about her with her therapist and one day 329 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:37.400 the therapist told her, when are you going to feed 330 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.240 that wolf? And she never had the nightmare again. It's 331 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:46.519 like she realized that that was part of herself that 332 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.279 she needed to nurture and take care of. So that's 333 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:58.759 that's one example. And I've had a sometimes people misinterpreted 334 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:04.359 dream like there was someone after after a very serious trauma, 335 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.599 that had a and they were telling me about what 336 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.400 they called a nightmare, and it was like and it 337 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.359 was they were telling me this family member was sitting 338 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:19.000 on their bedside and talking to them very kindly, and 339 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.400 and so I asked them, why why is that a nightmare? 340 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:28.480 They said, well, because the person's dead. So they interpreted 341 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:30.960 that as though they were going to die. 342 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:32.559 Ah. 343 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:34.359 But when I was able to talk to them, well, 344 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:40.720 and that's it's not that that it's it's someone's visiting 345 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:45.799 to to help and people. Another common thing that you 346 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.720 can help people understand about nightmares is the the you 347 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.240 in the nightmare is like, that's not you as that's 348 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:58.640 not Greg mah, that's this actor that's playing Greg Maher 349 00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:01.480 and that's some aspect of Greg Mars. So people get 350 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:06.119 very scared when they die in the dream or something 351 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:11.279 terrible happens to them. And that that's sometimes a very 352 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.640 good thing. Sometimes that's part of them that should die, 353 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.359 you know, and when that part of them dies is 354 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:23.240 maybe that's something to celebrate. So that's what I mean 355 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:27.920 by sometimes re exploring and reinterpreting dreams, and this is. 356 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.480 You know, I'm listening to you, and it sounds like 357 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:36.799 as a physician, as a therapist, you're helping people realize 358 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:42.480 and understand and decipher what they're experiencing in their dreams. 359 00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.000 Yeah, or the way I like to think about it, 360 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:51.200 I don't like to think of it as like puzzle salting, 361 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:52.759 and I don't like to think of it as like 362 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.519 your ego needs to find the answer. I like to 363 00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:59.400 think about it as I want to help people develop 364 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:05.400 a relationationship with their inner cells. And as you kind 365 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:09.079 of have this relationship with your inner self, then you 366 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:14.880 can understand each other each other better. So it's a 367 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:19.440 matter of kind of developing this relationship. And part of 368 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:23.759 that is understanding that this inner friend has a different 369 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.920 language and has a language of images and kind of 370 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:34.599 says things in different complicated ways that you wouldn't wouldn't understand. 371 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.920 Like it's a good example in that that I use 372 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:42.240 in the ted talk of my dad at the end 373 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.720 of his life when I was sharing with him the 374 00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:49.200 book I wrote, and he was like a hundred by that, 375 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:54.000 and he was, you know, commending me and saying, geez, 376 00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:57.000 that nice job, congratulations and stuff. But then he said, 377 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.400 just because he's part of the culture, he said, oh, 378 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:04.839 but aren't dreams just nonsense? And then he did what 379 00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:07.880 people always do when they say that, They say, for example, 380 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.680 last night, and then he told me this dream about 381 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.759 that my mother was still alive on the porch and 382 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.920 he was mowing the lawn and my mother was criticizing 383 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.720 him that the rows weren't even and he was like, 384 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.079 isn't that nonsense? And I'm thinking, because I know him 385 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:28.519 and I knew my mother and how critical she was, 386 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.200 I'm thinking, oh, this, this is not nonsense. This is 387 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:38.000 this beautiful depiction of your life. This is your life, dude. 388 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.920 And he didn't see it or didn't want to see it, 389 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.680 you know, But that's what I mean by dreams talk 390 00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:48.079 to us in these images. Yeah. So it's like the 391 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.279 message to my dad was process, you know, under this 392 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.279 is you have time left to understand that, you know, 393 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:58.599 But maybe it wasn't ready to hear it, or maybe 394 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.599 he heard it in a different way that he didn't 395 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:01.160 share with him. 396 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:05.599 We're going to take a short commercial break to allow 397 00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:10.160 our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly 398 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:14.799 with my guest today, doctor Greg Maher, discussing his work 399 00:29:15.000 --> 00:30:01.839 in nightmares. We'll be right back. My guest today is 400 00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:06.000 doctor Greg Mayer. He has been studying dreams but also 401 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:14.400