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Speaker 1: your exploration. Hey, what's going on today? Let's do some
Speaker 1: pod crashing. Episode number four seventy seven is with Daniel
Speaker 1: Scheffler from the podcast Wayfinder. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2: Excellent? Tell you so well.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to share a conversation with you because
Speaker 1: you're getting to do what so many of us would
Speaker 1: like to do. But for some reason, we keep hitting
Speaker 1: these walls, and I don't understand why we can't just
Speaker 1: let go and just go on a wayfair kind of
Speaker 1: a journey.
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you what it is besides the finance components,
Speaker 2: so let's leave that out for a second. But I
Speaker 2: think people feel like it's daunting because it needs all
Speaker 2: this planning. But I have been trying to encourage people
Speaker 2: to just start traveling in their own city, in their
Speaker 2: own state, in their own whatever small region, and then
Speaker 2: it starts to feel less daunting, and then you can
Speaker 2: expand it out of state, out of country, and perhaps intergalactic.
Speaker 2: I mean that's possible now too. So I think people
Speaker 2: worry that there's there's these unknowns. People worry about the unknown,
Speaker 2: right they think, what if this happens? But if you
Speaker 2: change your mind and just says, and you can tell yourself,
Speaker 2: what if this magical adventure happens, then little by little
Speaker 2: something wayfindery will find you.
Speaker 1: But see, I'm so inspired by this wayfinder attitude and journey.
Speaker 1: And the reason why is because I've sat with many
Speaker 1: medicine men who always tell me how they use mile
Speaker 1: markers to, you know, kind of show them what the
Speaker 1: path is. They didn't have a map, they only had
Speaker 1: these places of discovery and that's where and they would document,
Speaker 1: you know, how they would make their way into a
Speaker 1: brand new day.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I was in Kenya a week ago, spending time with
Speaker 2: the Samburu people's tribe in the northern part of Kenya,
Speaker 2: and one night we were sitting under the stars and
Speaker 2: there was a sort of distant thunderstorm. So some lightning
Speaker 2: coming through the clouds, and the stars had opened up
Speaker 2: in the Milky Way, and the elder tribal member started
Speaker 2: to talk to me about how they had been navigating
Speaker 2: by the stars and how even today they know exactly
Speaker 2: where everything is. It was magical, like because I'm so
Speaker 2: used to going on my phone and using it to navigate,
Speaker 2: and it reminded me to trust a sort of something
Speaker 2: more primal in me, something more, something less digital, something
Speaker 2: more analogue, to just kind of navigate your world. Well.
Speaker 1: See, that's what I love about traveling and being in
Speaker 1: r V is the fact that I document everything in
Speaker 1: journals and so'll and I'll go into these journals and
Speaker 1: I'll see what we did the last time, What did
Speaker 1: we learn from this? But when you talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: looking up at that sky and stuff, maybe it's because
Speaker 1: I'm from Montana, but looking up into the sky to
Speaker 1: find out where.
Speaker 3: You are in May, Oh.
Speaker 1: My god, there's just something up there that is constantly
Speaker 1: speaking to every one of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're totally right. We forget. I think it's because
Speaker 2: we're so we live such digital lives because everything is
Speaker 2: on the phone, and there's a part of my travel
Speaker 2: inspiration that I try and hand to people. And I'm
Speaker 2: working on a book at the moment, and this is
Speaker 2: what the book will be about, and it's put the
Speaker 2: phone down. It's okay to get lost. Look, there's a
Speaker 2: moment where you get lost and it's dangerous, but for
Speaker 2: the most part, you're getting lost and it's magical if
Speaker 2: you have the right attitude. But if you follow your
Speaker 2: phone the entire time, we lose the ability to navigate. Right.
Speaker 2: We become android androids, we become robotic. And I know
Speaker 2: for myself, I'm going to Korea this week. I know
Speaker 2: that there are a couple of places I really want
Speaker 2: to see and soul, But for the most part, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to walk. You know. I pack comfortable shoes,
Speaker 2: I pack some sunglasses, and I'm off. I don't I
Speaker 2: sort of try and get off the map and off
Speaker 2: the phone, and then that is when the adventure happens.
Speaker 2: But I understand that for most people this is hard
Speaker 2: because we're so used to the support of well now
Speaker 2: it's ai right, like Lord, it's there all the time,
Speaker 2: not it is helping us. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you need to know when to put that down. You
Speaker 2: need to know that the adventure is not on the phone,
Speaker 2: because you can do that at home, the adventures right
Speaker 2: in front of you.
Speaker 1: One thing that I'm very much afraid of is the
Speaker 1: Google Calendar, because that is a map that really because
Speaker 1: for me to put today together, I actually start almost
Speaker 1: a week and a half ago.
Speaker 3: And that's just the way that it is.
Speaker 1: And so when you speak of this open land, this
Speaker 1: free I can go out and look at the stars
Speaker 1: and stuff I'm going, But how would my Google calendar
Speaker 1: handle this.
Speaker 3: I'm not the only one.
Speaker 2: I Am going to come and take your phone away
Speaker 2: from you and just challenge you and come ride with
Speaker 2: you in an R and B and see where we
Speaker 2: end up. That's my challenge to you.
Speaker 1: Well, it's usually in a place where there's gonna be
Speaker 1: wild animals, because I am an animal activist in the
Speaker 1: way that I don't know if you've ever read Ted Andrews,
Speaker 1: but I believe animals speak to every one of us
Speaker 1: every day, and if we are not listening, we are
Speaker 1: missing out on a major page in history.
Speaker 2: I love that, you know, my dog talks to me
Speaker 2: all the time. I love it so I can relate,
Speaker 2: you know, when I was in Safari in Kenya, last week,
Speaker 2: I did see a lot of animal It was that's
Speaker 2: saw the Big Five and it's just magical. But I
Speaker 2: also saw animals I've never seen before. There's some there's
Speaker 2: a small cat to settled like it sort of looks
Speaker 2: like a large house cat, a very large, very lean,
Speaker 2: very mean house cat. And I sort of communicated with
Speaker 2: this cat in a weird way. We spent time together.
Speaker 2: I was on the game drive vehicle, but I was
Speaker 2: just sort of quietly sitting there. And then my guide
Speaker 2: said to me, you know, it's very rare to see those.
Speaker 2: There are two of them in the MASSI Maha, and
Speaker 2: I saw them both and it was interesting, Like I
Speaker 2: when I go to Africa, I was born in South Africa,
Speaker 2: there is a sort of homecoming and a part of
Speaker 2: us that wants to commune with animals, that wants to
Speaker 2: understand that's something primal in us, and we lose touch
Speaker 2: with that, not just because we live in the city,
Speaker 2: but also just the way we live our lives. Right, Like,
Speaker 2: there's something so magical to sit at a watering hole
Speaker 2: watching the elephants play and communicate with each other, and
Speaker 2: you know, spread have them mocked bath and spray water
Speaker 2: and there's something that we're missing in our day to
Speaker 2: day life where we're not doing enough of this.
Speaker 1: But you know what's really interesting about this, Daniel, is
Speaker 1: that your podcast has given us the opportunity to live
Speaker 1: vicariously through you and so and as we listen to
Speaker 1: each episode, we're kind of soothing that little itch that
Speaker 1: we've got to be with animals and stories and traveling
Speaker 1: and things like that. But at the same time, you
Speaker 1: also challenge us get your little thinking noggin in order
Speaker 1: here and start planning your own journey.
Speaker 2: I think so. There is a Safari episode coming in
Speaker 2: season two which I think people will appreciate, especially you
Speaker 2: if you're an activist. It's coming from someone very smart
Speaker 2: and interesting to talk about conservation and new ways of
Speaker 2: understanding conservation. Conservation is such a complicated topic, especially in Africa,
Speaker 2: but the episode's going to be great. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: do feel like I most people cannot travel for various reasons,
Speaker 2: but I encourage people to just try and start small.
Speaker 2: Just try and travel in your own town and then
Speaker 2: in your own state. But it is magic to be
Speaker 2: able to go somewhere and to lose yourself in order
Speaker 2: to find yourself. That's the goal, right, Like we want
Speaker 2: to grow and travel is a travel like a it's
Speaker 2: a magical way of doing it, like it offers it
Speaker 2: to you so on a silver platter. It's like ready
Speaker 2: for the taking. You know, people go to Morocco, they
Speaker 2: have been to this, to this exotic as Americans would say,
Speaker 2: exotic place. The smells, the hot air balloon rides, the
Speaker 2: the you know, snowball sandboarding, and the dunes, going into
Speaker 2: the soup, and suddenly you're changed as a person, like
Speaker 2: you cannot remain the same version of yourself if you
Speaker 2: go to these places and open yourself up.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Daniel Scheffler coming
Speaker 1: up next. The name of his podcast is Wayfinder. We're
Speaker 1: back with Daniel Scheffler. You know what, I'm so jealous
Speaker 1: of something that you said earlier about having this relationship
Speaker 1: with your dog and that your dog speaks to you
Speaker 1: and stuff, and then you're talking about traveling and storytelling
Speaker 1: and the scent of the air. I wish that I
Speaker 1: could have the what a dog does inside their nose,
Speaker 1: because we are missing out on so much history by
Speaker 1: not smelling the ground that we walk on. And I
Speaker 1: know that sounds gross, but I think that we're missing
Speaker 1: out on so much stuff. When you talk about the
Speaker 1: scent in the air of Morocco.
Speaker 2: You're totally right. You know, my dog I live in
Speaker 2: Madrid now and she goes to the park every day
Speaker 2: with her friends, and on the way she smells. And
Speaker 2: my husband and I were talking about this the other day.
Speaker 2: We were like, she's smelling more intensely here. It's the
Speaker 2: crystal's longer history. Here, She's like smelling back to where
Speaker 2: the Arabs founded this town, and then to the Spanish.
Speaker 2: She smells the Inquisition. It is magical. She knows that
Speaker 2: I'm coming home. She can smell me before I arrive.
Speaker 2: There is something kind of crazy about that. Although she
Speaker 2: does travel with me a lot, she's a travel dog.
Speaker 2: On dog is like, isn't that the most sacred, sacred thing.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I love my husband, but my god, the dog.
Speaker 1: My wife and I are convinced that you are a
Speaker 1: modern daytime traveler. Do you feel like you're wearing those slippers?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, why not the ruby slippers? Yeah? I do.
Speaker 2: I do feel that way. I'm forever on the road,
Speaker 2: and there is something that does feel sort of crazy
Speaker 2: and chrontimistic, antigodness, oh no, what's the world and chromistic
Speaker 2: anachronistic to me that I sometimes go back to places
Speaker 2: that have never seen a white person, Like I spent
Speaker 2: some time in Benning recently to go see the voodoo,
Speaker 2: and these people had never seen a white person. And
Speaker 2: then I go to places like Japan and I feel
Speaker 2: like I am in the future, right, Like you see
Speaker 2: how things operate there, and then you're like, am I
Speaker 2: in the future. I'm going to soul this I told
Speaker 2: you this weekend, and it's like, you know, these these
Speaker 2: countries have a very futuristic perspective, so it does feel
Speaker 2: like that. And then you know, I go to Africa
Speaker 2: and you're in a tribal village in rural Kenya, and
Speaker 2: it does feel like some thing thousands of years old.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess, I guess I haven't thought about
Speaker 2: time travel in that way, but it just feels like it.
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that your podcast offers us,
Speaker 1: and this this is just strange old me, mister Powart,
Speaker 1: guy who's been writing all these years, is that I
Speaker 1: believe that you're going to show me the needle in
Speaker 1: the haystack, because you go to places that I know
Speaker 1: where that needle probably is, but I'm never going to
Speaker 1: make it there, but I'm going to rely on you
Speaker 1: to take me there.
Speaker 2: Well, that is years and years of practice. Find it
Speaker 2: the needle, or perhaps I put the needle then in
Speaker 2: the first place, right, you know, I you know, I
Speaker 2: think it's a As a professional traveler, it is my
Speaker 2: It is my gift to people to make it easier
Speaker 2: for them because like I get to go and I
Speaker 2: never go to a place once. I can go as
Speaker 2: many times as I want. It's literally my job. But
Speaker 2: a lot of people they like, this is my one time.
Speaker 2: I'm going to whatever London and I want to give
Speaker 2: you the best of London, not necessarily the touristic things
Speaker 2: that you will find by yourself. Walk the streets of London.
Speaker 2: You'll have an adventure. But trust me, I've spent enough
Speaker 2: time in London to take you and to show you
Speaker 2: where to go where that needle is going to prick
Speaker 2: you in a way that you will love, love, love,
Speaker 2: And that's the role for the show. This is the
Speaker 2: method that we're sort of employing, is that this way
Speaker 2: find a way of seeing the world is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: listen to us will help you find the things that
Speaker 2: you're not necessarily expecting.
Speaker 1: But you know what, though, Daniel, is the fact that
Speaker 1: in listening to the podcast or the one thing that
Speaker 1: in my heart is I feel like that you could
Speaker 1: predict a weather storm before it gets here, because you're
Speaker 1: so experienced with the atmosphere of all things in the
Speaker 1: universe that you're able to hear it, watch it, study it,
Speaker 1: and go. You know, I think it's gonna rain in
Speaker 1: about an hour and a half. I just feel something
Speaker 1: that I felt maybe in Kenya. I think it's gonna
Speaker 1: happen here again.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you're so you're showing the money. I
Speaker 2: was in Kenya and I said too. I was spending
Speaker 2: time at the mess I Warriors, some of the elders,
Speaker 2: and they literally can tell you exactly when it's going
Speaker 2: to rain. And I didn't ask. I asked the man.
Speaker 2: There were some big rains in Kenya when I was
Speaker 2: there last week, and I did ask this gentleman. I
Speaker 2: was like, can you just impart this unto me? Can
Speaker 2: you just paint this unto me so that I also
Speaker 2: have this Still, I think the thing that I can foretell,
Speaker 2: perhaps I cannot foretell the weather. But I can foretell
Speaker 2: that when when there's about to be a good time.
Speaker 2: That is a skill that I've had, Like I know
Speaker 2: which when the party's good and the party's not. So
Speaker 2: perhaps that is is truth telling.
Speaker 1: So then how how are you going into each podcast?
Speaker 1: Because I'm a podcast writer as well as producer, and
Speaker 1: that's one of the things, you know, building that storyline,
Speaker 1: the consistency of you moving us forward. What is that
Speaker 1: like for you to go from actually living it now
Speaker 1: you got to tell the story? Oh my god?
Speaker 2: Right, that is that is the skill. I mean, I
Speaker 2: have been doing this for two decades, you know, I
Speaker 2: write for the New York Times. I have a little
Speaker 2: I have a little experience, But no, I think it's
Speaker 2: like people are interested. If you are interesting and interested
Speaker 2: off the battle as one, you know, I think that
Speaker 2: that's the rule. I also make sure that I'm friends
Speaker 2: with people that are both interesting and interested. So I
Speaker 2: think the north star we have for this show and
Speaker 2: my producers are wonderful, is that we're curious. Right, We're
Speaker 2: adding curiosity and we're moving the narrative forward by by
Speaker 2: also being curious. So we invite guests that are telling
Speaker 2: you things that perhaps you wouldn't know, like I just
Speaker 2: had this wonderful author on She's had a she has
Speaker 2: a great book that just published last year, and she
Speaker 2: has spent her sort of last few decades in the
Speaker 2: Stans so Kazakhstan to Afganistan and she Opekistan. And the
Speaker 2: episode is on Ozbekistan and summer cont and she talks
Speaker 2: about it in a way that gives you a little history,
Speaker 2: so you have a little context, but it also allows
Speaker 2: you to start uncovering in your own mind the sort
Speaker 2: of that I have prejudice about the Silk Roads. What
Speaker 2: do I really know? What do I want to understand?
Speaker 2: And how can I go there? And I think that's
Speaker 2: the goal we've got with the show, right, So perhaps
Speaker 2: the Silk Roads is a hard trip. It's far, there
Speaker 2: are no direct flights from America. But if you want
Speaker 2: to do something really special, you can travel with your
Speaker 2: mind's eye with Joanna, who's want the interviewee. And then
Speaker 2: perhaps when you're thinking about a trip and you're trying
Speaker 2: to be really adventurous, this is the one you'll pick.
Speaker 2: You know. Mexico's great. I love it. I go all
Speaker 2: the time, and I think it's one of the best
Speaker 2: countries in the planet, especially the food and the humans.
Speaker 2: They're wonderful, but there's also thank you stand waiting for you,
Speaker 2: you know. So I think that's what I'm trying to
Speaker 2: do with the show, that what we're trying to do
Speaker 2: with the show is kind of get people out of
Speaker 2: a comfort zone and push them to sort of open
Speaker 2: themselves up in order to feel something. Travels should feel
Speaker 2: something other ones. It's a holiday.
Speaker 1: You got to come back to this show anytime in
Speaker 1: the future. Twenty minutes is never.
Speaker 3: Going to be enough. With you, Daniel, please come back.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having a minute.
Speaker 1: You be brilliant. Any day you be brilliant.
Speaker 2: Thank you sir, Thank you so