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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm

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Bill Thomas, and we're joined again today by one of

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our very favorite people, Joe Jack Alone, here to talk

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to us about all of the goings ons in the

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world of true crime and true crime podcasting. Sarge, thank

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you so much for joining us again anytime.

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Speaker 5: Nice to be here.

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Speaker 3: Against So take a minute and refresh our listener's memory,

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if you would, about who you are and how you

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got into the true crime space.

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Speaker 5: Sure. I am a retired sgeant from the New York

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City Police Department. I spent over twenty years. I retired

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as an SDS, which is supervisor to the Technive Squad.

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I was the commanding officer of the Bronx Cold Case Squad.

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I've been an adjunct professor at John Jay College for

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almost twenty years now, and I've written two books, The

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Criminal Investigative Function, A Guy for New Investigators in the

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fourth edition, and my new book of the Cold Case Handbook,

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which just came out last April. So I'm excited about that.

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And I started a YouTube channel. I do my life

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shows on True Crime with the Sergeant. I started that

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in August and I'm closing in on ten thousand subscribers,

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so that's exciting too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fantastic, Ravo.

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Speaker 3: That is not a small feat. Congratulations.

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Speaker 5: Thanks, yep. I got a long way to catch up

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to you, guys, but we're starting to do something.

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Speaker 2: You're insights are so interesting and thoughtful, and you're bringing

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this twenty year career to bear on discussing new cases.

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It's really interesting to have someone like you talk about

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what's going on in the true crime space.

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Speaker 5: Well, I appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: How did you get into podcasting?

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Speaker 5: It's honestly, it's something that I always wanted to do,

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and like probably a lot of other people, some of

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the friends and acquaintances discouraged me from doing it. Who's

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going to listen? Why do you want to do this?

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I do a lot of TV media, as you guys know. Yeah,

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and I do a lot, and I used to do

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a lot more. I paired back over the last few

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years just because it becomes a full time job that

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you don't get paid for. And the issue that comes

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down to is you listen to sometimes some bad advice,

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and then you realize that, hey, you know what, what's

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the worst that's going to happen if I fail? At

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least I say I tried.

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Speaker 3: There you go. I love that. That's a great way

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to look at it.

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Speaker 5: And everybody faces the same thing in the podcasting world.

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You guys know that. Do people have told you, I'm

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sure it's you're wasting your time, nobody's going to listen

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and everything else. And then here, you guys are right,

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I think when you got a million downloads and everything else,

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that goes on. So for all those people, all the

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haters out there, you know what, they got to do

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something other than focus on what everybody else is doing.

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If they just focus on their doing, they wouldn't have

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time to hate on anybody else.

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Speaker 2: But I'm baffled, Joe, with all of your experience and

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all of your insight, why would your friends or colleagues

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say to you, all, don't bother. It's a waste of time.

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No one's gonna listen. The truth is, I think people

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are very interested in what you have to say.

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Speaker 5: And that's been the positive of that, right, And I

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was pushing up against it because I'm saying, listen to

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I'm on CNN and MSNBC and Fox News and you

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name it. And I'm like, everybody else wants to listen

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to me. Why wouldn't people out there who don't watch

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those channels? Right, Because not everybody watches the local news anymore.

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I grew up on that. Maybe you guys grew up

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on that too. We watched the local news every night,

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and we were tuned into the TV. And things have

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changed dramatically, and social media has taken over, and podcasting

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and videocasting and all the other things that have become

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a real point whereas people who wanted to get their

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voice out and wanted to do things have that opportunity now,

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and I encourage others to do it. There's plenty of

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room in the true crime space, no matter what people

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will tell you.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and there's always room for expert voices, and obviously

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you are very much one of those. Does your work

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in the true crime space make you miss being a

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homicide detective? Do you actually want to get back out

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there on the pavement and follow leads, rundown suspects, that

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sort of thing.

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Speaker 5: Every now and then I get that thought in my head,

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and then I quickly dismiss it because I did it

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one of those been there, done that kind of thing.

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I'm getting old now it's a young person's job. Maybe

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I can pass along some of the things that I've learned,

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some of the mistakes that I've made, and some of

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the insights that I've had in regards to specifically cold

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case homicides and try to help families. And that's one

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of the reason why I wrote my book, is because

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it helps not only the police, but it also helps

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the family and the true crime community. We can get

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a lot of tips on that too, about how they

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can get exposure to some of these cold cases because

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they are just piling up. Unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: Are there times, Joe, when you think back on cases

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that you handled in the BRONX years ago that you'd

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like to revisit with the latest forensic technology. Does that

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cross your mind? Boy, if we had the science that

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we have in twenty twenty four back when I was

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working these cases.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, and it's not just the forensic science actually of it.

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I wish we had the cell phone records and the

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video surveillance and the Internet records that I refer to

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as the three forensic horsemen, not even including the DNA,

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because the cases that we were investigating in the early

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two thousands were from the eighties and nineties where none

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of that existed, and we were dealing with VHS tapes

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that kind of you got from the local bodega that

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had been written over one hundred times, and you when

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you could barely see the person's face, was a blurry thing.

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And I always make a joke, I said, we can

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send pictures from Mars that are absolutely flawless, but meanwhile,

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the local grocery store can't give you a straight picture

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from the robbery suspect. It's absolutely insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, from shot a dozen feet behind the register. You

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mentioned the three horsemen. Go back over that a little

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bit for our benefit. What are the three horsemen?

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Speaker 5: The three Yeah, refer to U as the three threndsic corsemen.

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And the first wrote about it in around twenty eleven,

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I think, in the first edition of my investigation book,

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and it was the video surveillance, Internet records, and cell

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phone records. Those are the three things that, of course

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law enforcement should be keen in on every case, no

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matter what. And we see that play out every night

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over and over again on TV when you're talking about

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some of these cases. And I keep on trying to

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tell people like listen, look, you got to look at

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the cell phone records. You gotta do this, you got

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to do that. And it's almost as if some well

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gloss over that and saying it's not that big of

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a deal, or it might not exist, or what have you.

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That phone in your pocket or that smart watch on

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your wrist, which I call the snitch on your wrist

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track so much information and data, and and you think

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about it, it could help detectives with the estimated time

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of death right because this thing tracks your heart rate

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and everything else, and when that thing goes to zero,

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which is me on Sundays, it keeps on asking me

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are you alive? Kind of thing. But it's a great

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investigative tool, and they're pretty pervasive or ubiquitous, whatever word

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you want to use. They're everywhere. Everyone's got them, no

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matter what social structure. People have these things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let the record show I was just showing the

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snitch on my wrist, which does tell me every single day,

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why aren't you walking more and get more steps? This hour?

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Speaker 2: Eating myself? Even my cell phone reminds me I need

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to walk more and get more exercise, which is good advice,

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but I don't necessarily need an iPhone telling me what

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to do.

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Speaker 5: It's a great investigative tool, but it just has to

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be done properly, and we've seen time and time again

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law enforcement make that big mistake. I mean, had Coppint

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versit the United States, which is a California case, if

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McCall correctly, I think it was California. Basically kept on

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telling the cops you have to get a warrant in

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order to get into the phone. It's an important step

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that we see and I think there was just the

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recent case where they messed that up, maybe even in

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this Karen Read case, right, because the allegation is that

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the trooper will get into this maybe later on, but

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the trooper searched the phone without a warrant allegedly. Here's

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these things keep on popping up over and over again,

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and I just went I want to bang my head

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against the wall because there's lots of information that people

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can get for free. You don't have to buy a

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book or pay for a course. There's plenty of information

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out there for free that investigators can do excellent point.

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Speaker 3: You obviously have a wealth of knowledge, and there is

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no shortage of interesting cases to talk about. How do

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you choose the cases you discuss, or rather, how do

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you triage all of the information that you get coming

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at you. We have sort of an embarrassment of riches

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here within the true crime space, So how do you

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choose your cases?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, unfortunately, this month is going to be a hell

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of a year for true crime. You have Karen Reid case,

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You have this case that just happened in South and

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North Carolina with this young woman who committed suicide and

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all this other stuff, and then you have you know,

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the Brian Colberger case in DELFI the next four weeks

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are going to be insane, and there are cases I'd

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like to be more involved in the Delphi case, but

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I've hooked my caboost to the Colburger case and the

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Red case. I have just backed into this just because

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a buddy of mine that does I have this morning

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show I call roll Call, which is a police term

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where everybody gets their assignments today, and he comes on

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quite often to Mike Galcazar and he's, Joe, are you

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watching what's going on with these with this investigation? He goes,

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is this is right up your ally. This is like

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a total disaster in the making. So he got me

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involved in that. Boy, was he right? Unfortunately, this has

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turned out to be a real textbook case. This is

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they're going to write about this case for years to come.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about Karen read there.

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Speaker 5: Karen read, oh, yeah, this is going to be textbook material,

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just like for my first book, the OJ case was

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textbook material about things you don't do because detectives, like

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many others, we learn from other people's mistakes. Because you

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don't want to be the guy a girl that has

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a Supreme Court decision with your name attached to it,

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or or you just don't. And just on a side note,

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A couple years ago, I had spent some time with

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Carol Cooley, who was the detective that arrested Ernesto Miranda,

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and I spent a number of hours with him in

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his house and we talked about certain things, and I

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asked him before I was leaving, I said, did you

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ever think fifty years later people would be still mentioning

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your name? He goes, absolutely not, because there were four

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other cases that went to the Supreme Court. It just

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so happens that the Miranda case, the M was the

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first letter of the alphabet that was available. Everybody else

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was after the M. So that's why it's called Miranda

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versus Arizona. So he was like, yeah, just one letter

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off I would have you wouldn't even have known who

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I was. So he was choking about that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, in that we've all heard Miranda's name thousands of times.

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If you watch the news or follow true crime in

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any way, shape or form, it's always there.

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Speaker 5: It had sent out a couple of years ago to

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do like this living history bit with Laura Enforceman and

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I said, I had reached out to Carol in Arizona

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and I said, listen, are you interested in doing a

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sit down interview? And he said sure. So I went

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out to Arizona and I sat down at him. My

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mistake was I went out in July and nearly melted.

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But I have about four hours of material that I

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don't know how to edit because this is just like

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everything else. And I had a recorded conversation with James Levell,

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who was the famous detective that was handcuffed to Lee

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Harvey Oswald when he was showing, Oh yeah, I have

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that interview. So I have a lot of these historic

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interviews that need to get them out there, and now

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that I have a platform for it, now I finally

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have a good reason to get it out into the public.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about Karen Reid for a few minutes. Kristin

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and I had done some coverage with a focus on

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Turtle Boy, the blogger slash advocate slash problematic has kind

257
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of inserted himself in this case without focusing on him

258
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as much. Where are we with Karen Reid and what

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are some of your latest observations with that case as

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it moves through trial.

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Speaker 5: The first week, it was one zero defense for sure,

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and so far this week is setting up to be

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to nothing by the time this week is over. And

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the reason is because law enforcement has really done a

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bad job. The prosecutor has done a terrible job. Everybody

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was talking conspiracy, and I'm trying to explain to people

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competence does an equal conspiracy. Right, you might be able

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to find something else down the road, but right now

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I'm just seeing police work that is not even gradable,

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so to speak. If you had to give him a grade,

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the best grade I would give them would be a

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D minus right now. And that's something too. This was

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one step below above F because how they handled the

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evidence is atrocious. The train of custody, they can't answer

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any questions, everything is I don't recall. It just really

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looks bad. And you have a district attorney who is

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pretty much asleep and not really garnering much attention and

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getting people to be on his side, and I yet

279
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to see him win even a small battle so far. Jo.

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Speaker 3: I love what you just said about incompetence doesn't equal conspiracy,

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because I think there are actually any number of people

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that you could shut down arguments with by just making

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that point. Just because someone isn't doing their job right

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doesn't mean there's a whole world of conspiracy out there.

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I love that, Thank you for putting that on my radar.

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Speaker 5: It's the conspiracy thing. That's how it started off with,

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right Karen Reid was framed. Now the defense has done

288
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such a good job picking these guys apart that now

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they've put themselves in a position where they're not proven conspiracy,

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and now the jury might be actually left on the

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thing going on. There is no conspiracy here, so it

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could actually end up haunting them. Listen, most cases don't

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go to trial, we know that, and out of the

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cases that do go to trial, something like eighty five

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percent of them end up in a guilty verdict. Right now,

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if this case ended today, I would say either on

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jury or an acquittal. It's just as simple as that,

298
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because it's just has not gone well.

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Speaker 2: Do you think this is more of a problem of

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bad police work improper handling of important evidence, or is

301
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it bad presentation by the prosecution or is it all three?

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Speaker 5: It's a confluence of things for sure, But listen from

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the police perspective, when you're looking at how the evidence

304
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was done who was interviewing questions and making I think

305
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there was a couple of people specifically. I think it

306
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was the lieutenant or the sergeant. You have detectives, they

307
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have an investigations unit that you know, where are the

308
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detectives asking the questions? Who's getting the case? Why are

309
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these supervisors in there? And you know what, small departments

310
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do things differently. I get it. I talk from the

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experience of the largest police department and basically the world,

312
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at least the country. You're dealing with a situation where

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you need to have people who have done this before

314
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to be able to handle it. Right, I think I

315
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saw too many people involved, right they ald saying too

316
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many cooks boil the super broath or whatever it is.

317
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That's what I see here. That kind of led to

318
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this spumbling. And what didn't help was the blizzard. Right,

319
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So the state police weren't coming. We know that because

320
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people are like, why in the state police. They're supposed

321
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to respond to homicides and death investigations. They're supposed to

322
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do this, Yeah, but not coming there's a blizzard. So

323
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my question is where was the backup plan? Who was trained,

324
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who was sent for this kind of situation? That knows

325
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how to take photographs, collect evidence, secure it. The lieutenant, understand,

326
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couldn't even remember if you ever use evidence tape. These

327
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are the kind of things where just shake your head

328
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at a certain point and say, what is going on here?

329
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Speaker 3: It's like a certain amount of malfeasans is definitely the

330
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name of the game for this.

331
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Speaker 5: I did a little bit of a rant on Twitter

332
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just because I was just aggravated yesterday after watching it.

333
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I just I left home and I went outside and

334
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I told everybody that the lieutenant deserves to be put

335
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on traffic duty the rest of the day. And I

336
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am going to get a coffee and don't because that's

337
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what I deserve.

338
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Speaker 2: But I noticed you mentioned the doughnut. When I was

339
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watching the clip, I just laughed out loud.

340
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Speaker 5: It was that frustrating, and I even said it, Listen,

341
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we are still within the anti cop environment in this country.

342
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Nobody's going to tell me otherwise. My opinion has been set.

343
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Anybody can argue with me if they want it. I'm

344
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just not going to pay attention because it is And unfortunately,

345
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this kind of situation brings out the sea. Look see

346
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,600
how bad they are. Look at this is going on right.

347
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I just this is the word. I'm looking for it.

348
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,000
There's gonna be a magnifying glass on this case in

349
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regards to what the cops did or didn't do. And

350
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I'm just telling you it's like almost like you're looking

351
00:16:02,799 --> 00:16:05,840
for that other shoe to drop, right, something big is coming.

352
00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:08,759
The defense has been setting everybody up. I don't know

353
00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:10,320
if you guys saw it. I was on Court TV,

354
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the first witness that was being interviewed, and I told

355
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that was what Julie Grant and I told her, I said, look,

356
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this is what's coming, this is where he's going. And

357
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,840
sure enough, and she said, how did you know that?

358
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I said, because, first of all, I've testified in court,

359
00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:24,320
that's the first thing. Second of all, if you just

360
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,159
look at what goes on, in order to impeach anybody's credibility,

361
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,679
you have to prove that they made so many mistakes

362
00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:34,120
that it's basically an incompetence thing. It was about documentation.

363
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,799
The saying goes if it's not documented, it wasn't done.

364
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As simple as that. So you can't go into court

365
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,720
and say we did this, but I didn't write it down.

366
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You might as well have just said I want a

367
00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:48,360
million dollars, but it's not my bank account. It doesn't work.

368
00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:53,519
Speaker 2: In your heart of heart, Joe, do you think Karen

369
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,360
Reid killed her boyfriend with SUV that the night they

370
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were out drinking?

371
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Speaker 5: To be honest with one of the reasons why I

372
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,440
stayed away from this case is because I couldn't, for

373
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,759
lack of a better word, or I couldn't get a

374
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,640
read on this case. I usually have a very strong

375
00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:11,519
feeling one way or the other when I'm talking about

376
00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:13,880
these cases. When I'm dealing with this from the very beginning,

377
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,680
I stayed away from it because I couldn't get a

378
00:17:16,799 --> 00:17:19,079
read on it. One of the things that first popped

379
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,480
into my mind was she was so terribly drunk she

380
00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:23,480
might have hit him and then drove away. But then

381
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the murder charge kind of threw me all off right,

382
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,359
because I think that was a bit of an overstep

383
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,240
on the DA's part two. I don't like when they overcharge,

384
00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:33,519
and it was like one of those if you shoot

385
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:35,359
for the stars and you get the moon, great kind

386
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,519
of thing. I don't think that's the way things should go.

387
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,880
You charge what the crime is and that the chips

388
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,960
fall where they make. When the first cop on the scene.

389
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I think his name was Officer Sarah. The first testimony

390
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,839
and he said that he didn't even sit down with

391
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,720
the district attorney before the trial in preparation for his testimony.

392
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,839
I nearly fainted. I couldn't believe it. Now, Yes, and

393
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,000
he wasn't the only one I have never heard. You're

394
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,680
talking about a homicide case and you're talking about no

395
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:08,359
trial prep. It's absolutely insane if that's the truth. I

396
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,960
think you had at least two or three of the

397
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,759
cops now said that we did not speak to the

398
00:18:12,839 --> 00:18:16,240
DA before going to this court. So I'm like, what

399
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,440
that's just there's nothing wrong with sitting down with the

400
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,559
district attorney before your testimony, because the idea is, Okay,

401
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,200
the defense is going to ask you this question. What's

402
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:26,160
going to be your answer?

403
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,680
Speaker 2: Think about it or listen.

404
00:18:28,759 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 5: We know there's a problem, right, So they brought out

405
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,720
the sheet that has the dispatch log that showed the

406
00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:35,680
sergeant already at the scene, which he wasn't, And there

407
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,279
was supposed to be another unit at the scene which

408
00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:39,519
showed him they were at the scene, and they were not.

409
00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:42,960
At least through a trial prep you would have found

410
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,960
that out. Ahead of time, and you would have said, Okay,

411
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,640
what's the reason for this. It might be the fact

412
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that that dispatch louge just meant that they sent this

413
00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:53,640
cop and the sergeant and this other cop. It just

414
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,599
it wasn't about them arriving. I don't know. At least

415
00:18:56,599 --> 00:18:58,519
you could have had an answer. If not, it looked

416
00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:01,400
as if the defense just proved that we're already making

417
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,119
up stuff by not having the sergeant at the scene,

418
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,839
but saying to telling everybody, according to this piece of paper,

419
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,599
he's at the scene, when we have it on the

420
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,640
dashcam that he's not right. These are problems that you

421
00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:14,079
put out and you can't refute them because of the

422
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,960
fact that you have the dashcam video.

423
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,559
Speaker 2: Which is a heck of a lot more accurate than

424
00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:21,359
a log would be in terms of who was sent there,

425
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:25,839
when they arrived. Obviously, the camera is recording real life

426
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,400
events in real time exactly.

427
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,759
Speaker 5: And how do you not know that this is going

428
00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:32,640
to come up? How do you not know you have

429
00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:35,200
this whole thing on video? How do you not how

430
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,519
are you not prepared to answer these sometimes just simple questions,

431
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,000
because some of them could be explained very easily. Just

432
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,759
for instance, the lieutenant. I bashed him pretty good yesterday,

433
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,160
but he got caught up in something. I think he

434
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,039
just got vaklempt is. He didn't know how to answer something.

435
00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:50,759
He probably knew the answer to it when he says,

436
00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:52,920
don't you know that the state police say you don't

437
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,480
put biological evidence in plastic containers. That's not the case.

438
00:19:57,599 --> 00:20:01,200
That's you don't put anything with biological fluids in plastic

439
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,160
security envelopes and then seal them because it creates that

440
00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:07,599
condensation and it degrees to DNA. If I was understanding,

441
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:08,920
he would have said that to me, and I've been like,

442
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,559
you're mistaken, right, It has to do with this. Here's

443
00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:15,240
the thing. They're putting evidence in red solo cups that

444
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,480
a cop brought home from his house. They're using a

445
00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:20,039
stop and shop paper bag for this kind of stuff.

446
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,000
You guys don't even have crime scene supplies back at

447
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,319
the station. Like, what are we doing over here? I

448
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,640
had said yesterday, I said, listen, this department needs an

449
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,240
overhaul big time. If you're the general. The chief of

450
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,359
police is a female. I think her name was Oh God,

451
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,720
her first name is Elena. Whatever. She's got some answers.

452
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,759
He's got some questions coming at her if I was

453
00:20:36,759 --> 00:20:39,440
the city council for sure, like how is your department

454
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,359
not prepared for a crime scene? How do you not

455
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,839
have crime scene tape or not have the containers for

456
00:20:44,839 --> 00:20:47,920
these things and the paper bags and the security tape

457
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,799
and everything else. I just I'm going to question like,

458
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:52,680
and I guarantee you they have it. These guys just

459
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,599
didn't get it. That's that's my thinking. It's bad.

460
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,599
Speaker 2: I don't think Canton, Massachusetts is exactly murder central. They

461
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,799
must have had some violent crime, so they should have

462
00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:08,119
all of these supplies necessary for a crime scene. Am

463
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:08,599
I correct?

464
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 5: Yes? This stuff doesn't expire, right, A plastic bag isn't

465
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,160
going to expire, so you could you don't have to

466
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,480
buy a thousand of them or ten thousand of them,

467
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,480
buy a hundred of them and just have them on hand.

468
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,640
Because in this day and age, you don't know what's

469
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,759
going to happen, when it's going to happen, and the

470
00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:27,880
idea is you'd rather be prepared for it and have

471
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,559
it never happened than to happen and not be prepared

472
00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:33,119
for it. I understand training costs a lot of money,

473
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,039
and this and that I spent a lot of my

474
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,319
own time and money even and got training on my

475
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,279
own time, took days off, and that kind of stuff,

476
00:21:39,319 --> 00:21:41,519
just because the department isn't going to pay for you

477
00:21:41,559 --> 00:21:44,319
to spend a week in a a forensics class or

478
00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:46,359
a document class or any of these other things. So

479
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,960
you end up doing these things on your own. But

480
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,960
it's really about benefiting yourself in the long run and

481
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,359
making you more marketable within the department, and you're dealing

482
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,039
with small departments, and you're dealing with other issues when

483
00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:00,279
you're dealing with small departments in twenty twenty four, to

484
00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:04,480
have the correct type of mechanism to secure evidence. Let's

485
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,200
put it this way. It's unfortunate about that word. It's unfortunate.

486
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: Now you're being charitable because when I watched you on

487
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:12,920
your video clip, you ripped into them pretty good.

488
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,279
Speaker 5: Yeah. I do everything, and I do this on my

489
00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:17,279
own show too. I do everything short of cursing. I

490
00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:19,799
don't really curse nothing like that. Let me tell you something,

491
00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:23,759
I almost dropped a couple of bombs yesterday because it

492
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,640
just infuriated me that, like I said, in twenty twenty four,

493
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,920
we're still talking about this stuff. It's come on, guys,

494
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,519
we've been dealing with DNA now for over twenty five years.

495
00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:34,720
We know exactly how this is supposed to be done.

496
00:22:35,079 --> 00:22:38,039
This isn't a big secret. Most of your audience probably

497
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,640
understands how some of these pieces of evidence and trace

498
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,759
evidence and biological fluids should be done. I give quizzes

499
00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:47,559
every day on my YouTube page, and we've quizzed it

500
00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:50,519
on this already. Every day there's a quiz question and

501
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:52,519
it's about and one of the quiz questions about I

502
00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:55,400
guess about a month ago was what kind of security

503
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,599
envelope do you put biological fluids? And then the answer

504
00:22:58,759 --> 00:22:59,519
was paper bag.

505
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 3: Paper bag?

506
00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:03,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, not stopping shop paper bag, a paper bag. Right,

507
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,799
you're bringing stuff from home. You don't know what's inside

508
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:10,119
those cans and those cups. It's not sterile, it's not

509
00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:13,319
coming out of a package, per se. Everyone's touching these things.

510
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,039
Chain of custody. They haven't even spoken about cheane of custody,

511
00:23:16,039 --> 00:23:18,440
but mark my words, guys, next week it's all gonna

512
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,000
be about chain of custody.

513
00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:23,039
Speaker 2: It's funny. You're actually able to listen and you can

514
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:25,559
hear the markers being laid down, and this is where Oh,

515
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,480
when you were doing the Court TV appearance, you're actually saying,

516
00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:32,400
this is where this is going, yes, and.

517
00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:34,079
Speaker 5: This is where it is going, right, because now it's

518
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,839
they started talking about the tailight and the pieces. Next

519
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,119
week you watch, it's going to be who found the pieces?

520
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,039
Where are the pieces? Where's the documentation to see what?

521
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,279
Who had them at the lamb, who tested them at

522
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:46,519
the land, who sent them back? And when they say

523
00:23:46,519 --> 00:23:47,160
we don't know.

524
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: Oh no, luck Yeah funny. When you were talking about

525
00:23:50,519 --> 00:23:52,920
the use of colorful language, I was thinking to myself,

526
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,119
they don't use bad language in the Bronx, do they?

527
00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, sure. Listen. People will tell you sometimes when

528
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,480
they listen to my podcast, they go all great victims,

529
00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:04,319
the real Joe finally and then it's run up to

530
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,559
the edge and I walk back because I don't listen.

531
00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:09,640
My show is not a PG rated show person just

532
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,720
because of the topics that we show. Watch shows where

533
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,680
people are cursing like every other word, and it just

534
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,440
like it was interesting so to speak in that kind

535
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,599
of so I avoid that, but a well placed one

536
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,720
once in a while it works.

537
00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 3: We gotta keep it classy, We gotta keep it classy.

538
00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:26,799
Up in here.

539
00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 5: It's just make sure the beasts sometimes do my old job.

540
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,440
That's everybody's cursing. People are cursing you, and every all

541
00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:35,920
day long is cursing. So it's hard to get that

542
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,640
out of your system. But I've been out now for

543
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:38,880
twelve years and I conquered that.

544
00:24:39,799 --> 00:24:43,319
Speaker 3: I want to shift our attention to the Brian Coberger

545
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,680
Idaho four case, because there is something very interesting going

546
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,880
on with that. But I do want to actually get

547
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,160
your input on this question about preservation of the crime scene.

548
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:56,160
We had actually spoke about why we thought that Terry

549
00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:58,680
the house down was a mistaken We got a pretty

550
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,359
fair amount of pushback on that side. I'm really curious

551
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,519
go on the record with us. What is your thought

552
00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:07,000
about tearing down the Idaho fourhouse before the trial has

553
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:07,799
even taken place.

554
00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is the dumbest move since they Mets traded

555
00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:14,720
the Tom Sevett to the Reds for a couple of

556
00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:18,319
bats and a couple of used baseballs. This was a

557
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,480
real head scratcher. We could come up with reasons why

558
00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:24,079
this happened and speculate all day long, but just from

559
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,960
the point of view, So just I'll bring a break

560
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,960
back to the Karen Rea case. What did the jury

561
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,480
do the other day they went to the crime scene nay,

562
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:32,920
and they looked for they were able to look and

563
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,480
take this all in on their own because the questions

564
00:25:35,519 --> 00:25:38,000
that they have about backing up and where the body

565
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:40,039
was located and all these things. The people want to

566
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:42,960
see this right. You have a huge problem now with

567
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,000
the Colburger case. Besides other issues. Now when you say,

568
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,000
because people ask how come the young girl that was

569
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,160
in the first floor, how come she didn't hear the

570
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,039
screams and all those other things, you can't test it now.

571
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,000
You can't have somebody standing in the basement where this

572
00:25:58,039 --> 00:26:00,319
girl came out of wh this woman came was living

573
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,720
at the time, go up to the third floor and

574
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,079
scream and see if you can hear it. You don't

575
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,839
have that ability anymore. And it's an absolute travesty what

576
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,039
they did, and it's going to come back and haunt them.

577
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: It's funny because Kristin and I talked about this several

578
00:26:13,759 --> 00:26:16,000
months ago, and as Kristen said, we've got a lot

579
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:19,640
of pushback. People said, no. They go in and they

580
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,279
measure every aspect of the structure using lasers and they

581
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,680
record endless amounts of footage showing you the first floor,

582
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,079
second floor, third floor, of the stairs, the whole thing.

583
00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:34,599
We both said, there's nothing like being there.

584
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 5: The same reason that people go to Italy to see

585
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,160
the coliseum, because it's still standing, you still get that feeling.

586
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,799
There's nothing that can replace. There's no photo, there's no

587
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,720
video that can replace the actual thing. We've all been

588
00:26:47,759 --> 00:26:51,119
to a historic location and that says on this site,

589
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,039
something happens, right, and then you look at it and

590
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:55,519
it's just a building or an empty parking lot. It

591
00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:57,880
doesn't have the same feeling to you, right, I know

592
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,559
something happened here. He doesn't give us feeling. And just

593
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,759
take for instance, I'm a big baseball fan, and growing

594
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:05,079
up in New York, you've always heard about the Dodgers

595
00:27:05,079 --> 00:27:08,000
and the at Edbits Field, and I've been to those projects,

596
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:10,920
working there, the apartments, and I've worked in that location.

597
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,799
And you sit there where home plate is, there's a

598
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:14,960
plaque and you sit there, says on the spot Jackie

599
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:18,319
Robinson became the first African American to break the color barrier.

600
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,519
And you're standing in the middle of nowhere and you

601
00:27:20,599 --> 00:27:22,759
just don't get the same feeling right, and I've seen

602
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:25,359
photos of it, I've seen videos of its field, but

603
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,559
I don't have the experience of what it was like

604
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,079
to watch a ball game there. That's about the best

605
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:31,880
analogy I can give you. And if if sorry, if

606
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,400
you're not a baseball fan, you can lose it. But

607
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:36,480
I think you can understand what I'm trying to get across.

608
00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:40,759
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back

609
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:58,839
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

610
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,160
mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just

611
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,640
wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme

612
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:10,480
effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to

613
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:13,960
help us raise funds to help promote mind over Murder

614
00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:19,240
and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.

615
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,039
We'd love it if you could support us in any

616
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:26,000
way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to

617
00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,039
whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will

618
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:31,960
be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes

619
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,759
and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for

620
00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:42,400
your support. Now back to mind over Murder. The Karen

621
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,440
Read example is a good one. Now, obviously, if the

622
00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:49,640
jury was there recently, they're not in the middle of

623
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,880
a blizzard. But even something as simple as which way

624
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,119
she backed up in the driveway, I'm guessing that she

625
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,720
might have been turning the car around or whatever. But

626
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,599
I had a lot of questions about her sightlines. It

627
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,920
was snowing, it was dark, she'd been drinking. But for instance,

628
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,079
if she was not impaired, would she have even been

629
00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:17,880
able to see John O'Keefe, her boyfriend, who was fatally

630
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,119
struck by it appears fatally struck by her vehicle. You'd

631
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,279
be able to answer a lot of questions with a

632
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,559
visit to the site in terms of give me the

633
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:29,559
lay of the land.

634
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 5: Listen, As a cold case investigator, one of the first

635
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,599
steps we did was go to where the crime happened,

636
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:37,480
if we can get access to it, or to take

637
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,319
a look at it, because you want to get the

638
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,279
feeling of where the positioning of the victim was, where

639
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,839
certain items that were found at the scene, and you

640
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,680
try to get that visual so that you can start

641
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,519
to mentally put a picture together about what you think happened.

642
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,559
And this is actually investigative one oh one, where the

643
00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:58,519
detectives get together and they come up with their theories

644
00:29:58,599 --> 00:30:01,319
or their hypothesis or educated guess, whatever you'd like to

645
00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:04,079
call it. And one of the things that we always

646
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:10,240
warn detectives about was don't marry your hypothesis, don't find evidence,

647
00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:12,799
or only choose evidence that proves your theory to be correct,

648
00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:15,759
because that's the major problem. And I see that happen

649
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,440
in a lot of the true crime community, where they

650
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,680
look for certain pieces that go, aha, see that fits

651
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,119
my theory, See this is what's going on. Yet it

652
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,119
doesn't work that way. You have to take a look

653
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,160
at the whole picture. Like I tell people, I'm not

654
00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:31,799
pro Karen read. I'm not pro guilty Karen read to me,

655
00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:34,680
I look at it as from a strictly criminal justice

656
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,759
and investigative standpoint. We want the justice system to service correctly.

657
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,160
We want the police to do what they're supposed to do,

658
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,640
because when either one of those fail, we all lose.

659
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,599
And that's the bottom line. And yes, sometimes you have

660
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,160
to let a guilty person go free. That's what the

661
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,799
saying is right, because you don't want a miscarriage of justice.

662
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,920
And I am a firm believer in that. And the

663
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,720
other thing that I see in some investigations and I'm

664
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:02,359
not saying the Karen Reid one per se, but it

665
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,440
might come back to me that way. One of the

666
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,359
goals of an investigation is to exclude all others. When

667
00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:11,720
you don't do that, this is what happens. Right. So

668
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:14,599
now they're looking at other people who could have been

669
00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:18,319
involved in the death of John O'Keefe, right, because the

670
00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:20,720
police didn't do what they were supposed to do and

671
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:24,799
eliminate them as potential suspects from the very beginning. And

672
00:31:24,839 --> 00:31:27,559
when you don't do that, this is what you get. Folks.

673
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: Joe, you had mentioned overcharging a moment ago in relation

674
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,240
to the John O'Keeffe death. Are you thinking that manslaughter

675
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:40,680
might have been a more appropriate charge if Karen Reid

676
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,720
is found to be responsible for John O'Keeffe's death.

677
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,759
Speaker 5: I don't know the exact statutes of Massachusetts, but whatever

678
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,960
would be the vehicular manslaughter for people who are under

679
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,799
the influence, right, whatever that charge might be, Because there's

680
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,960
different kinds of charges, not only for murder but also

681
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,279
for manslaughter. Vehicular manslaughter is for generally people who are

682
00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:04,119
under the influence of either alcohol or narcotics. To me,

683
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,000
that would have probably been a more appropriate charge. But

684
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,319
I also think I would have waited a little while

685
00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:11,279
if I was the district attorney. I'm a lawyer, Let's

686
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:12,519
put it that way. Let's get that right out there.

687
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:15,680
I'm no lawyer, but I've built cases for prosecution, and

688
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,880
that's where I'm coming from, right. I don't think the

689
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,359
police built the case strong enough to withstand this barrage

690
00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:23,359
from the defense. And it's showing.

691
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: Before we leave Brian Coberger and the Idaho for our

692
00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:29,839
case behind. What else do you really have your eye

693
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,880
on in terms of proceedings in the Coburger trial? What

694
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,680
else are you really looking forward to to discussing on

695
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,440
your pod.

696
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,039
Speaker 5: I've already started, and I've also done it in the media.

697
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,000
If I was a defense, the first thing I would

698
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:44,200
have been going I would be yes, of course the

699
00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:46,960
DNA and the cell phone records. Of course you're going

700
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,599
to go after that. But for me, what's ripe for

701
00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:54,839
a defense to just steam roll the prosecution is how

702
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,559
the crime scene was handled. It was just so many

703
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,200
people involved, and I hope they kept the crime scene

704
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,279
log about who entered that place and when they entered it,

705
00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:06,720
and then you had issues where they were giving back

706
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,079
furniture and personal items during the middle of a crime scene.

707
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:12,519
And I was on News Nation with Chris Cuomo at

708
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:14,359
that time, and I said, as far as I'm concerned,

709
00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:15,960
and you could find that episode is still up there,

710
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,720
and I said, I told Chris, I said, as far

711
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:20,640
as I'm concerned this day, this time, the crime scene

712
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,480
is over. Anything you find now is going to be

713
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,000
bought left and right because they're just going to the

714
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,759
defense is going to go how do I know that

715
00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:29,839
you didn't have evidence in those other items that you

716
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,079
sent away? Right? You gave away and then they had

717
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:35,000
the crime scene crew, cleanup crew come in, remember that

718
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:37,799
whole mess. And then the chief is driving a U

719
00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:40,519
haul with stuff in it, and then the mattresses are

720
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:43,039
in the back of a pickup truck. The list just

721
00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:45,720
goes on and on. I'm like, if I was the

722
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:47,759
chief and that pickup truck, I would just drive myself

723
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:51,079
right off the cliff because you sit there going, my god,

724
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,720
if he goes no, it's a small town nonsense. You

725
00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:55,599
had the state police there, the feeds a day. You're

726
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,359
telling me nobody has the right equipment to do this.

727
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,920
Give me a break with this already.

728
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,759
Speaker 2: Come on, they had strong support. It didn't just fall

729
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:08,119
to the Moscow, idaholp Police Department like you said that

730
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,840
Idaho State Police and they're a very well regarded lab

731
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,480
and the FBI, and they had a lot of resources.

732
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,679
And this isn't like this was when we talk about

733
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:21,119
the Colonial Parkway murders, and we're talking about a case

734
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:25,360
that's thirty seven years old, and the standards by which

735
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,599
crime scenes are handled in twenty twenty four are radically

736
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,320
different than they were in nineteen eighty six. I'd a

737
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,559
four case. We're not talking about ancient history, and we're

738
00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:39,719
not talking about a police department that is completely without resources,

739
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,559
particularly since they called in the state and federal agencies

740
00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:45,880
almost from the very beginning.

741
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 5: And a lot of people don't understand why didn't the

742
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,079
FBI do something about this, because the FBI has no

743
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,039
jurisdiction on it. It's just there as support. People have

744
00:34:55,119 --> 00:34:57,559
been tainted by television so much. Where the FBI shows

745
00:34:57,599 --> 00:35:00,360
up says we're in charge, now, local hicks go home,

746
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,400
it just doesn't happen. The FBI must be invited into

747
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,079
the case unless there is a federal nexus, and that

748
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:09,480
federal nexus is actually rare and it usually has to

749
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,840
do with terrorism. Number one has to do with a

750
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,719
child under twelve, or it has to do with I

751
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,480
think it's the Hobzact where you're doing this interstate crime

752
00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:20,079
so to speak. Like so somebody was kidnapped in Washington

753
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:22,440
and then killed in Idaho. Now we can come up

754
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,800
with a federal mexices and then the FBI could take over,

755
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,239
or or I could happen on a reservation in the

756
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,599
Indian territory, then that's an automatic FBI case, right, But

757
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:32,440
that's not the case in this respect. You bring them

758
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,360
in to enhance your case. They could give you the advice.

759
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,480
That doesn't mean you have to listen to them. And

760
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,559
that's what I think he saw probably on some of

761
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:40,119
these things.

762
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: It's painful to see them just through mishandling of evidence

763
00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:50,679
hand the defense all kinds of opportunities to chip away

764
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,039
at the credibility of the prosecution and the investigative agencies.

765
00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:57,159
Speaker 5: Of course, and that's what I always said, if I

766
00:35:57,199 --> 00:35:58,679
had hair, this is where I'd be pulling it out,

767
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,840
because you're giving the opportunity for people that shouldn't have

768
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,760
an opportunity. Because some of the other evidence, as far

769
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239
as I'm concerned. It's pretty strong, and I know that

770
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,559
everyone is talking about, oh, the cell phone. Oh. The

771
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:11,519
expert that they have is gonna tell him that he's

772
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:13,960
on the other side of a mountain with DC in

773
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,840
that DC and Washington right in this park. And I

774
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,119
try to explain to them, like, once again, your cherry

775
00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:22,559
picking information. If this expert comes into court and says.

776
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 6: Your cell data is wrong, my guy was a far

777
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,119
away from the crime scene, then I would have to say, okay,

778
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,480
then explain to us why he was in I think

779
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:36,239
was Allentown where we have him at the Albertsons where

780
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,360
his cell phone was pinging, and then he gets out

781
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,239
of the car with the video surveillance and he's shopping

782
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:40,880
for fifteen minutes.

783
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,679
Speaker 5: So you're telling me they were wrong on that too,

784
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,599
or they just happen to be right at one time. Right.

785
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,519
The defense has to be real careful about what they

786
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:53,119
say about this cell data because they cannot totally do

787
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:55,719
a scorched earth policy. They're gonna have to pick and choose,

788
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,760
and I think that hurts them. I think it really

789
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,159
does hurt them because there are certain things that they

790
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:03,039
can't deny based on their cell phone data. I know

791
00:37:03,079 --> 00:37:04,679
there are people that will argue with me on this

792
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,800
all day long, but I say they happen to be

793
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,599
right once. Come on, guys, we're talking about our very

794
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:13,639
rural area. This technology is somewhat new, and yes there

795
00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:16,000
could be some mistakes. And everyone is talking about, well,

796
00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:18,920
ping is not necessary this and that. Okay, I get it,

797
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,559
but the ping with video surveillance is pretty damning as

798
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:24,960
far as I'm concerned. And then they say, what about

799
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,960
the white car and this and that is the one

800
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,199
plate It's all going to come out. And I also

801
00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:31,320
try to explain to people, because of the gag order,

802
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:34,559
we only know probably twenty five percent of what the

803
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:37,960
prosecution actually has. The defense is only going to bring

804
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,320
out the things that benefit them, And people don't understand.

805
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400
It's either that the prosecutor can't say anything, but the

806
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,320
defense could come out there at whole court all he

807
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,719
or she wants, and the defenses are going to bring

808
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,840
up all of it because they have most of the discovery.

809
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,159
Right they are arguing over certain parts of the discovery,

810
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,559
they have the majority of it that if you notice,

811
00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:56,800
they're only keying in on one thing, they're only key

812
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,360
and in so far on the cell phone data. They

813
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,239
haven't mentioned anything about the DNA though the IgG the

814
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,800
investigative genetic genealogy. I think that hearing comes up next week,

815
00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:06,880
but it's not going to be in an open court.

816
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,039
It's going to be closed. We won't hear about that.

817
00:38:09,039 --> 00:38:12,559
That's another little tidbit, right some of these situations that

818
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:15,199
you see this this Coburger case, especially if the IgG

819
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,559
ghosts through. Idaho is a weird state because it's not

820
00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:20,440
a Fry state, it's not a Doalbert state. It goes

821
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,800
by the Federal rules of admissibility of evidence, and if

822
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,639
people want to look up those Fry is what an

823
00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:29,119
E Fry and Dalbert those are the admissibility of evidence.

824
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,920
The Fry is a very strict standard. The only about

825
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,679
twelve states use it. Dalbert is used by the majority

826
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,360
of states, and there are some states that use the

827
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,679
hybrid version or the federal rules. And that becomes an

828
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,360
important aspect of this case because the IgG, as we know,

829
00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:45,239
is pretty much brand new, so to speak, and they're

830
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,480
using it now to identify a suspect who wasn't charged

831
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:50,880
with anything. It was like almost like a guess kind

832
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,159
of thing. The garbage cover perfectly fine. US Supreme Court

833
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,840
decision California versus Greenwood. The cops can come and get

834
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,639
your garbage right certain states. I think New Jersey requires

835
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:01,880
a warrant to get it. Everywhere else you could just

836
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,360
pick up anybody's garbage you want. So that's not going

837
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,000
to be an issue as far as I'm concerned. So

838
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,000
I when I look at these cases, guys, I look

839
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:10,639
at him from the lens of if I'm the defense,

840
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,800
where am I going to go at from the investigations?

841
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,159
Because the old rule is if you can't fight the evidence,

842
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,719
you fight the investigators. That's what we're seeing in the

843
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,559
Read case, and I think that's what you're going to

844
00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:21,599
see in the Colburger case too, Because some of the

845
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:23,320
evidence is very strong, you're not going to be able

846
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,360
to get around it, so you go after the investigators themselves.

847
00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:29,400
It's a textbook example of what's happened in Massachusetts right now.

848
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: Speaking of cases with some problems, let's talk a little

849
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,719
bit about the Long Island serial killer Goyogo Beach four case.

850
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,719
I know we spoke with you last time you were

851
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,840
Onmind over Murder. What's your take on the latest developments

852
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:44,960
in that case?

853
00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 5: I was surprised, like a lot of people in regards

854
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,639
to this, because one of the pressers that I had

855
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:54,679
watched the Districtory, Ray Tierney speak about when they asked him,

856
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,000
are you going to be looking to tie other cases?

857
00:39:57,199 --> 00:39:58,760
And he didn't say it, but he said it like,

858
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,800
we got the we got all kind of thing. We're

859
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,440
going to concentrate on these four and then basically after

860
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,239
these cases are done, then we can maybe look at

861
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,800
other things. And I was a little disappointed in that

862
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:10,519
because I thought that once you have somebody and now

863
00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:13,239
you've tied them pretty much with forensic evidence, I think

864
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,280
the evidence is kind of overwhelming in this case. This

865
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,639
case is the other compared to the other two, I

866
00:40:18,639 --> 00:40:21,800
think the evidence is insurmountable at this point. When I

867
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,079
saw the searches that were happening in Manorville in the

868
00:40:25,119 --> 00:40:29,159
pine barrens, and it showed that they were looking at

869
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:33,159
specific locations because each time they went, each day they

870
00:40:33,159 --> 00:40:36,400
went to a different location. They weren't just looking and

871
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,800
then just going west and this going through all the

872
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,760
woods they made they were getting in their cause they

873
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,480
would drive to another location. So to me, the information

874
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:47,320
was really specific. And then of course when you're looking

875
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,000
at where this started, Manorville, Long Island and Supper County.

876
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:54,760
You had the two partial remains of Jessica Taylor and

877
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,159
Valerie Mack found not too far from where this was.

878
00:40:57,199 --> 00:40:59,880
So people say automatically, oh, this has to do with list.

879
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,719
But it also then John Bittroff, who was another convicted

880
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,840
killer who had killed two women, Rita ten Gritty and

881
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,400
Colleen mcnamine. Their bodies were found in Surely, but he

882
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,920
lived near Maniville right. So then because his name was

883
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,880
in the news again recently too, about him trying to

884
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,000
get his case thrown out, there was a lot of confusion,

885
00:41:18,039 --> 00:41:20,400
a lot of things happening on Long Island. With that,

886
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,719
you had the other body parts case in Babylon. My god,

887
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,840
Long Island is getting such quite the rep Yeah, it's interesting,

888
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,800
but I was glad that they were doing this because

889
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,920
they were showing that we were interested in finding additional victims.

890
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:34,159
Because this wasn't about oh, let me see if I

891
00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:37,239
could find some a weapon or a piece of evidence

892
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,199
or something. They were looking for bodies. They had Cadavia

893
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,760
dogs from Suffolk Nasaur the NYPD. So when you're bringing

894
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,519
Cadavid dogs you're looking for bodies. They had some solid

895
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:49,199
information that there was potential victims found there wherever. That

896
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,280
came through maybe a prisoner debriefing, maybe a confidential informant

897
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,800
withinside a prison, or maybe from one of the prisoners themselves,

898
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,559
who knows. It was just quite interesting and quite a

899
00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:02,840
good thing to see. And the only you haven't asked

900
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,519
me this, but I'm gonna bring it up anyway. Good yeah, dude.

901
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,559
In January, John Ray, the attorney for the Gilbert family,

902
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,719
held a symposium and he I know, Johnny's he's a

903
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,559
really nice guy and he really he's the one that

904
00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:17,719
really kept this case alike. A lot of people don't

905
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,599
like him or whatever. That's fine, but you can't take

906
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:22,119
any credit from him in regards to keeping the Long

907
00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:26,119
Island serial killer case on the radar. Anyway. He held

908
00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:28,599
the symposium in January and Queens and he had a

909
00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:32,239
woman sign an APPI David that and the abidavit said

910
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,119
that she saw James Burke, who is then the police

911
00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:38,760
commissioner of the Suffer County Police Department, and Rick Sherman

912
00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:42,519
at a party together. So that was so when I

913
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:45,679
heard the search from Manorville after the district attorney kind

914
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:48,280
of pooh pooed searching for more people. I think he

915
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,000
might have gotten spooked and saying if this Burke thing

916
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:53,039
comes in, and because James Burke is the gift that

917
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:55,519
keeps on giving for crying out loud. He's already a

918
00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,760
convicted felon. He got arrested again out in Suffolk County.

919
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,599
We all know about his history and everybody there are

920
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:03,079
a lot of people that thought he was the Long

921
00:43:03,079 --> 00:43:05,760
Island serial killer, which once again, that was another thing

922
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,519
that I fought tooth and nail all along because listen,

923
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:10,840
I tell James Burke with a lot of things, killer

924
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,639
was not one of them. I mean, there are so

925
00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:14,679
many people that hated this guy. Believe me, they'd been

926
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,360
lining up to do him and drop a dime on him,

927
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,519
and that never happened. So that kind of tells you

928
00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:22,000
exactly what people really thought about it, because if they

929
00:43:22,039 --> 00:43:23,519
had the goods on him, believe me, they would have

930
00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:25,239
thrown him under the bus. They would have to need

931
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:28,280
shoulder surgery. How many times they would have thrown him

932
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,119
under the bus. Because cops are a funny group, right,

933
00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:33,400
I know, people talked blue Wall of silence this and that,

934
00:43:33,519 --> 00:43:35,599
you know what, they don't tolerate this kind of stuff,

935
00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:37,519
and you're talking about somebody who was a serial killer.

936
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:39,880
Believe me, if they had information, they would have did

937
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,119
this guy for sure. I think that kind of spooked

938
00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:43,960
the district attorney, and all of a sudden boom, they

939
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,760
were out searching for additional victims. And I think that

940
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,639
was that the John Ray thing with this Eppen David

941
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,760
became the fly in the ointment because about two weeks

942
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,199
or so, or three weeks somebody I know will fact

943
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,159
check me and tell you was three weeks and one day, Joe,

944
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:03,199
you were wrong, Hayter, who's gonna hay Yeah. Michael Brown,

945
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,280
the attorney for the reck Sherman, came out instead and oppressor.

946
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,880
We want the records for James Burke, the internal affairs,

947
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,559
we want all his personal files, we want the FBI

948
00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:16,880
files on the investigation, and we want the district attorney,

949
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,239
Tom Spoder's information. So I go there it is, folks,

950
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,440
there's the reason why, because three weeks later now we're

951
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,159
searching for additional victims. I think that really is the thing. Now.

952
00:44:27,159 --> 00:44:29,559
Could I be wrong? Of course I've been wrong before,

953
00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:31,800
But the issue that comes down to is they spent

954
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,679
a lot of money in this search. They brought in

955
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,119
outside agencies. You had New York City bringing in dogs

956
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:41,159
for five days. You think New York City's paying that bill. Yeah, no,

957
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,079
they're not paying that bill. Suffer County's paying that bill.

958
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,519
It's just a little interesting side note because a lot

959
00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:48,119
of people say, how did this all happen? And I

960
00:44:48,199 --> 00:44:50,239
think I just laid it out for you guys. This

961
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,039
is how it happened.

962
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,159
Speaker 2: So you're saying that the renewed effort at search, which

963
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,480
did end up finding additional bodies, that's directly as a

964
00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:04,320
result of them trying to expand this case and add

965
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,480
additional potential charges.

966
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:09,159
Speaker 5: I think what they're trying to find as cases that

967
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,800
they don't think they could tie them to Burke per

968
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,639
Se or have Burke muddy the waters kind of thing

969
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:17,599
for me if I was investigating this thing, and of

970
00:45:17,639 --> 00:45:20,199
course I'm not. I think the case with the biggest

971
00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:24,840
potential is peaches. Peaches was found in North Hempstead Lake

972
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,599
State Park. He was found in a rubber Maid container.

973
00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:29,400
Any think it was green in color as a plastic

974
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,360
containing you know one of those stories contains you buy

975
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,840
at Walmart for five bucks to the put your clothes

976
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,760
in that you're never going to wear again, and you

977
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,440
put them in the attic because your wife told you

978
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,559
to do, and you and there was a blanket and

979
00:45:40,599 --> 00:45:43,519
there was tape. Right that to me as the best

980
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:49,079
chance of recovering DNA, and specifically they made a mistake.

981
00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:52,239
The FBI had gone out and said, listen, we're looking

982
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,039
for we have a name. We think we know who

983
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:56,360
this person is. And they went to the Mobile Alabama

984
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,440
Police Department. In the Mobile Alabama Police Department put it

985
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,199
on Facebook saying we're looking for these individuals tied to

986
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,320
a case of and they put the tattoo of Peaches

987
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,920
on there and so then Mobile Alabama became ground zero

988
00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:13,480
for peaches. Right, But they still have not named her.

989
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:15,199
But I believe they know who she is.

990
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: I believe from what I've read and heard that they

991
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:19,639
also know who she is.

992
00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think, like I said, that was like

993
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,360
two years ago in October, I think would be three years. Yeah,

994
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,199
if you're tell me they couldn't find who she was

995
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,719
now even though they know what the town was, it's

996
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,079
I think we'd be kidding ourselves if they don't know it.

997
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,159
But It's an important part of the investigation in regards

998
00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:37,000
to know who your victims are because then you can

999
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:39,800
find out who or what put them in a position

1000
00:46:40,159 --> 00:46:41,920
that they are in now, so to speak. Right, So,

1001
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,039
what was going on in their lives? Was it drugs,

1002
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:47,199
was it prostitution or a combination of both, or was

1003
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,559
their abuse at home? Right? All these things that you

1004
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,559
have to run into what made this person a victim?

1005
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,559
You're doing both kinds of victimology on this right. Who

1006
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:57,679
she was and what she was doing that put her

1007
00:46:57,679 --> 00:47:00,360
in the position to become a victim, and that one

1008
00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:01,039
kind of stuff.

1009
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, Joe, are we going to see you at crime

1010
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,280
con here in just a couple of weeks.

1011
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 5: No, Unfortunately I didn't get invited this time around. But

1012
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,199
I actually worked in my favorite because it's my dad's

1013
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,519
ninetieth birthday. We're having a big bash and the whole

1014
00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:16,760
family's gonna have a reunion and we're gonna be together

1015
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,199
for a number of days. So I wouldn't have been

1016
00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:20,519
able to go anyway. Everything else, I'll be there in

1017
00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:24,559
spirit and crime cons is fun time. I think if

1018
00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:27,320
people get a chance to go, they should go if

1019
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,480
they're into this stuff, because it's like the thing to

1020
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:30,480
do for true crime.

1021
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,079
Speaker 3: Well, they've announced a whole bunch of new guests even

1022
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:36,000
just in the last couple of hours that I'm very

1023
00:47:36,039 --> 00:47:38,320
excited for. So I think it's gonna be a great

1024
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,719
year this year. We will miss seeing you there for sure.

1025
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's always a fun time. And even if I

1026
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,599
was there this time, I would definitely if I had

1027
00:47:46,599 --> 00:47:48,599
to choose only one thing to sit on, if I

1028
00:47:48,639 --> 00:47:50,480
was only allowed to see one thing, because you guys know,

1029
00:47:50,679 --> 00:47:53,800
when you're either a podcast host or you're doing stuff

1030
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,639
on the stage, you don't get a lot of time

1031
00:47:55,679 --> 00:47:59,079
to see other people. For me, it would have been

1032
00:47:59,159 --> 00:47:59,800
John Douglas.

1033
00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:05,159
Speaker 2: Yes, he was the one that I think we're the

1034
00:48:05,199 --> 00:48:06,280
most excited about.

1035
00:48:06,639 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 3: He also, unfortunately, is the person we're up against. He's

1036
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,320
speaking at the same time we are. Rather we're speaking

1037
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,519
at the same time he is. The crowds are not

1038
00:48:14,559 --> 00:48:15,880
going to go to us, They're going to go to

1039
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,639
John Douglas.

1040
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 5: It's a separate event, right, so you have to pay

1041
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,599
more for that. It's limited seating, so not everybody's going

1042
00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:24,280
to get a ticket to get in, So that's the

1043
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,679
other thing that and there's five thousand people show up

1044
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,079
at this thing and they only have a few hundred

1045
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:30,119
tickets or whatever. They'll have plenty of time to come

1046
00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:32,039
see you guys. We hope that is true.

1047
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:36,639
Speaker 2: And Cheryl McCollum mack is asking our questions and she's

1048
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,639
amazing and oh I love show. We always have a

1049
00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:43,480
great time with her, and she's so widely respected in

1050
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:46,639
the true crime space that she's one of the darlings I.

1051
00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 5: Think of cheryld's great people. I just spent the whole

1052
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:51,960
weekend with her and Joe Scott Morgan. We were at

1053
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,639
the Hamptons, Who've done it. We were there for a

1054
00:48:53,639 --> 00:48:56,639
whole four days doing the Long Island version of the

1055
00:48:56,679 --> 00:48:59,480
crime con kind of thing, their second annual one. We

1056
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:01,199
had a great time. We had a lot of fun

1057
00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:02,719
out in the Hamptons, the three of us.

1058
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I saw those photos and god, our friend

1059
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,639
Casey Sherman was out there as well.

1060
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Casey and I yeah, because Casey is the

1061
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,880
true crime chairperson and I'm the true crime consultant for

1062
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,039
the next year. So we talked. The guy's written I

1063
00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:22,400
think eighteen books now, yeah, and maybe nineteen, I don't

1064
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,719
know as we speak, but yeah, he's amazing when it

1065
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,320
comes to that stuff. But he's a really nice guy too.

1066
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,840
We had breakfast the one one morning together. He's a

1067
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,239
real he's a real, genuine guy. You could sit and

1068
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,639
talk them. If you didn't know who he was, you

1069
00:49:32,679 --> 00:49:35,199
would would never know. He's not pretentious in any way,

1070
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,079
and he just there talk to you and it's a

1071
00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:37,519
good time.

1072
00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 3: We will make sure that we tell Casey you said

1073
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,800
hello because we will be seeing him at Crime Con. Joe.

1074
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,039
It's a pleasure as always to talk to you and

1075
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:47,360
to hear your insight. Thank you so much for joining

1076
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:48,679
us today. We appreciate it.

1077
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 5: You're welcome. Guys, have a good one.

1078
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,159
Speaker 3: Thanks. That's going to do it for this episode of

1079
00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:55,480
mind Ever Murder. We'll see you next time.

1080
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

1081
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,199
Another Dog Productions.

1082
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,119
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

1083
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

1084
00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:19,559
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

1085
00:50:20,119 --> 00:50:24,159
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

1086
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

1087
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

1088
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,639
Murders on Facebook.

1089
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

1090
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,079
Bill Thomas. Five six.

1091
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:40,679
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.