WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.799 The other problem here, though, is another a concept called interpassivity. 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:11.519 Zorin could put us into this interpassive state where, because 3 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.919 the problem is, you know, this spectacle of him winning 4 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.519 could be taken as you, oh, great, I don't need 5 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.039 to do anything anymore. I don't need to get out 6 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:21.960 there and support him because he's going to do my 7 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:25.600 anti capitalism for me. And whether or not he does 8 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.000 is obviously just a question that has to be left 9 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:31.920 to the future. But it goes to the broader point 10 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:34.920 that when you have fascism, when you have communism, you 11 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:37.640 need propaganda with those things you need to argue, but 12 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:41.479 capitalism doesn't need you to believe it works for it 13 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:46.679 to work. And apparently, according to this argument, fascism and 14 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.640 communism are things that require you to believe them to 15 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:55.479 work for them to work. So in capitalism and capitalist 16 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:57.840 realism you can have this state where I don't believe 17 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.240 money is real, but I act as if it is, 18 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.840 or I don't believe this works, but I act as 19 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:06.840 if it does work. Right, you get into this capitalism 20 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.200 capitalist realism is this unique situation that produces that, and 21 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.879 the danger of interpassivity is, you know, whenever any spectacle 22 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:17.920 comes along like Zorin winning or the Squad winning, or 23 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:19.079 Bernie gaining ground. 24 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:19.359 Right. 25 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:22.920 The danger is that it can relax us into passivity 26 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.040 because it's, like we see, it's obviously the media system 27 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:28.239 that we're not going Unless you're going in person to 28 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:31.439 their rallies and hearing them speak, you're probably getting this 29 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:34.000 information from the media. So you have a spectacle of 30 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.079 anti capitalism and you relax and say everything's good, and 31 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:53.519 you pay attention to something else. Hello, pillpods listeners. Today 32 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:57.400 we're picking up on a topic we actually covered a 33 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:00.079 couple of years ago now, I guess it was so 34 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.519 I can't even remember when we did our last episode 35 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:06.959 on Mark Fisher, when we did Exiting the Vampire Castle. 36 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:08.960 That was a bit a bit of a different angle. 37 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.919 But today we're going to capitalist realism, something I've wanted 38 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:15.919 to read for quite a. 39 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:17.360 While and. 40 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.080 Never never done it. It's not even that long. I 41 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:21.960 don't know, why have you never? 42 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:23.159 Was this your first time reading it? 43 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:23.439 Eric? 44 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.039 It actually is, Yeah, I'm really yeah. I missed out 45 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:32.680 on a few texts I know, and I claim to 46 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.159 be knowledgeable about the sort of British Marxism type of stuff, 47 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.639 but I guess this is one of the ones I missed. 48 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:42.879 It's like one of the only theory books that anybody 49 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:46.000 has ever read. I know it is. Yeah, it's like 50 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:47.759 the kind of theory book that gets a lot of 51 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.319 people into theory. They're like, I think I can read 52 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.520 theory now, and then they read Jamison They're like, Okay, 53 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:53.039 I give up. 54 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:55.879 There's probably a good chance that many of our listeners 55 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:57.919 and may have this might be the only theory book 56 00:02:57.960 --> 00:02:58.479 that they've read. 57 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.560 Perhaps yes, oh yeah, everyone can school me on it 58 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.960 because that's my first run through. But I mean his 59 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:08.719 style is quite familiar, right, Like it is kind of eclectic, 60 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:14.400 bringing in very different topics from pop culture, economics, politics, 61 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:18.560 and drawing on like psychoanalysis. 62 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:22.080 And also if it's if it's not obvious already, we're 63 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:26.240 joined again by Tony from the one Time YouTube channel 64 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:27.840 and the One Time radio. 65 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:29.599 Podcast to talk about this. 66 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.199 So I just want to get that, make that clear 67 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.280 so the listeners are aware of what's happening. 68 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:35.280 I know I'm blowing this introduction. 69 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:40.039 I'm the substitute teacher, the substitute yeah, guest host at 70 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:41.199 this phase. Treat me well. 71 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:43.479 Tony is a guest host, meaning we're. 72 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:45.639 Going to put on a film for you for m's 73 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:46.960 going to be the class today. 74 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:48.599 Is a teacher? Yay. 75 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.159 Actually Fisher does talk about teaching quite a bit because 76 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.479 I guess he is a teacher or was a teacher, sorry, 77 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:59.919 and he drew a lot of stuff on his experience. 78 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:00.680 What was it? 79 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.439 It was almost like a continuing education he taught in. 80 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.240 It was like almost like an alternative oh yeah, school 81 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:11.319 system where like working class families or people who didn't 82 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:14.159 fit into the mainstream British school system, which I'm not 83 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.360 familiar with at all, could sort of send their kids there. 84 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:19.560 And I think it was more like the British equivalent 85 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:22.399 of community college. Oh yeah, yeah, kind of what he taught. 86 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:24.360 Yeah, right right, that makes sense. 87 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:26.399 I was I was also going to say, it's before 88 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.240 Tony got here and before we started recording, Eric and 89 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.519 I were sort of noticing that there's you know, it's 90 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:34.759 it's funny that in the Exiting of the Vampire Castle 91 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.160 he talks very like praisingly about Russell Brand, who I 92 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.360 think was for a time like authentically a pretty left 93 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:43.600 wing guy, like talking about working class issues. And then 94 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.800 I also added the fun fact maybe even some of 95 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:49.079 you who have listened have actually listened to the audiobook 96 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.040 of Capitalist Realism because it is actually read by Russell 97 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:53.800 Brandt in the audiobook. 98 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.319 In the audio, he's the narrator. Yeah, I mean the 99 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.839 Russell brand crossed the Aisle not long ago. 100 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:02.000 Yeah. 101 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.279 I think it was always genuine. I mean, and he 102 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.319 was a bit again on like the more British cultural scene. 103 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:11.199 He was big and until he got into those big movies. 104 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:14.279 But he's trying to find some self reflective answers. 105 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:18.040 I don't know that's in the sexual harassment stuff. Yeah, 106 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.600 he probably, I don't know. He exited the Vampire Castle, 107 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:22.839 but he turned right. 108 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.000 So what's the So maybe we should just get like 109 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:26.959 the core thesis of the book on the table. I 110 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:28.519 don't know if either of you kind of have. I 111 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:30.000 mean I can kind of give it a shot if 112 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.480 you want. But Eric, did you like a have a 113 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.000 way into the core thesis and maybe also why you 114 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.120 wanted to read it, because in this case, Eric actually 115 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:38.720 chose the topic. 116 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:43.879 So yeah, I suggested getting back to this text because 117 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.639 again it was one I feel I'm feeling the guilt 118 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:49.439 of not having read it, even though it's such an 119 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:55.360 obvious thing to read. When you're in this area of anyway. Yeah, 120 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.160 so capitalist Realism. I wanted to read it at this 121 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.319 time too because of Zorin's win and the kind of 122 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:07.120 I think it seems to me like the mainstream establishment 123 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:11.519 democrats at least are like those today who are most 124 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.480 under the influence of capitalist realism, because you kind of 125 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.759 have like the anti establishment right that seems to have 126 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.399 taken over and I don't know what they I don't 127 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:24.920 know how they would fit into the capitalist realist argument. 128 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:27.319 Maybe they do, maybe you disagree, but they seem to 129 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:31.399 be not there. And then Zorin also seems to be 130 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:36.639 kind of like an anti capitalist realist challenge from within anyway. 131 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.959 It's just it was just an opportunity to use some 132 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:48.240 theory to meditate on an interesting development in democratic politics 133 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:55.879 in the United States as outside observers and capitalist realism. Yeah, 134 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:59.879 I mean, it's just very basically, Yeah, it's the subtitle 135 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.319 the book, right is is there no alternative? Which is 136 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.759 asking that question. That's rephrasing Margaret Thatcher's famous line, there 137 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:16.279 is no alternative, Tina, there is no alternative to capitalism, 138 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:21.319 and today that problem seems to be very dominant, especially 139 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.399 after the fall of the USSR. Right, He's like, you know, 140 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:28.639 at least in the eighties, you know, there was a clear, 141 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:32.600 actual alternative to capitalism. We say, Okay, you can just 142 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.279 point to I don't know why everyone suddenly forgets about 143 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:38.959 China after nineteen eighty nine, as if they stop being 144 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:43.519 communists somehow, But okay, anyway, the fall of the USSR. 145 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.319 Now there's no alternative, like for real it seems. And 146 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.399 you could argue China's pretty plugged into the global capitalist 147 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:56.279 market despite its avowed communism. 148 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.600 But arguably it is an al Yeah, I mean it's 149 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:02.519 symbolically at the very let But anyway, it seems like 150 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.600 we're deeper than ever into this. 151 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:08.279 And you know, this Fisher text is also just a 152 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.720 blast from the past too, you know, like I started 153 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.839 university maybe not too long after he actually wrote this, 154 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:18.079 and I remember two thousand and eight. I remember all 155 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.560 that stuff too that he's talking about. I've seen those 156 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:24.720 damn movies. He's mentioning most of them, So I mean, 157 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:27.279 it's also fun for me to get back to that stuff. 158 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:31.279 But yeah, capitalist realism, it is a kind of subjective 159 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:37.559 belief that there is no alternative to the capitalist order. 160 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:41.559 It goes a bit deeper than that too, because of 161 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.200 the shift to post forwardism, which we'll have to get 162 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:52.279 into as almost created a new situation in which work 163 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:56.519 in labor seem to be changing drastically, and our relationships 164 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.440 with our jobs and our families seem to be changing 165 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.960 very draftically. Seems things seem to be in flux quite 166 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:06.320 a bit more than they used to be. And actually 167 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:10.600 capitalist realism seems in many ways to pick up or 168 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:15.399 provide an alternative way of conceptualizing all this to something 169 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:23.720 like say Friedrich Jameson's the Logic of Postmodernism or the 170 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:27.840 Logic of late Capitalism. It's another way of talking about 171 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:31.720 postmodernism with some different ideas about it for those of you, 172 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:36.639 for those who may be less comfortable with using postmodernism 173 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.720 as a way to conceptualize all of these social changes 174 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:44.360 over the twentieth century and beyond. So it's not just 175 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.360 like a simple you know, oh, there's an alternative, that's 176 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:48.559 the definition of it. 177 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:49.000 It does. 178 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:53.279 It is a cultural and historical configuration in much the 179 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:56.639 same way that postmodernism is. When you use it in 180 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.639 the way Jameson uses it, so can get into more 181 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:04.279 of the specifics as we go along. But that's the 182 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.840 general you know, that's why I was thinking of about it, 183 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:11.200 And that's kind of a basic what is capitalist realism? 184 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:12.600 What's Fisher're talking about here? 185 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:15.360 Also the kind of Gijak saying it's like much easier 186 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:17.279 to imagine an end of the world, write some sort 187 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.639 of catastrophe than it is an end to capitalism, and 188 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.679 like so, and that's sort of like the way and 189 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:25.559 I guess like the fact that that's assuming you accept 190 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:29.840 that premise, the fact that that's true is like evidence 191 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:34.480 of capitalist realism existing in our sort of social political, 192 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:35.360 cultural milieu. 193 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:41.600 Fisher kind of attributes this equally to Gjek and jameson. Yeah, 194 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.039 this this idea that it's easier to imagine the end 195 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:49.919 of the world than the end of capitalism, which just 196 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.600 and then he uses a kind of discussion of the 197 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.639 movie Children of Men at the very beginning to illustrate 198 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:59.200 this idea. But it just kind of goes towards the 199 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.759 broader argument again of capitalist realism, right like, if it's 200 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.320 easier to imagine the end of the world, then there 201 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:09.240 really is no way we can imagine an alternative, right 202 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:16.279 like our imaginative horizons have shrunk in around us in 203 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.679 a way that means we just kind of give up. 204 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.480 It's like this situation where now where we don't actually 205 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.360 believe in the ideologies that we espouse. We know it's 206 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:30.200 all kind of just like cynical bullshit, and yet we 207 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:32.399 have to we act as if it's all true. Everything 208 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.480 we're saying is true, and we act as if we 209 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.600 believe in it. But that's all I was just saying. 210 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:40.519 You know, like Zorin makes these promises. In one sense, yes, 211 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.240 he's a politician. They all want to win, and he's 212 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.679 saying these things to win cynical disavowal. But on the 213 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.639 other hand, like we should rally behind him because these 214 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.639 are good things and we all want these things. And 215 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:58.000 there's this sort of schizophrenia contradiction there between these two things. 216 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.679 I'm actually not convinced that renfree is are a good idea. 217 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:02.480 I actually think that's kind of a bad idea. But 218 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:04.320 that's a whole other stuff. 219 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.559 Yeah, in any in any case, like the afford the 220 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:11.320 general message of affordability is something everybody can get behind. 221 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.120 Well, yes, that's crucial. I totally agree with that. 222 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:18.360 Please elaborate on that wire. Rent freeze is bad under 223 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.960 is it like bad under a certain context or just 224 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:23.159 in any context? 225 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:26.360 The problem with that with this is like housing availability, 226 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:30.799 and when you just keep things artificially cheaper, you're just 227 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.240 going to continue to increase demand, and it's actually just 228 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.240 going to be harder to get an apartment, get anything. 229 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:38.519 You mean that you would, you would reduce supply. 230 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:41.279 You're gonna You're also going to reduce the incentive to 231 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:42.080 increase supply. 232 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:44.919 So I don't know about the demand, but the supply 233 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:46.720 is that going to happen? 234 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.639 Do I think that there should be like other policies 235 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.000 that like make rent freezes possible, Like yes, I'm just saying, 236 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:55.279 like in a vacuum in the current context we live in, 237 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.039 doing a rent freeze is generally like not a good 238 00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:58.919 long term solution. 239 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:02.919 Disagreeing with how we get there is not disqualifying you 240 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.240 from having a leftist point of view is still like it, 241 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.600 But the general message of affordability is like something we 242 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.440 still even if we don't all agree on specifically how 243 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.399 to get there. I don't think Victor secretly has like 244 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.399 major real estate investments that he's worried about and he's 245 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.360 like hiding them and lying to us by saying no, 246 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:24.960 actually there's technical problems that would be hilarious and ballsy 247 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:26.919 if that were the case, and I'd love it, not 248 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.440 really because I'd feel betrayed, but anyway, yeah, I think 249 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:31.120 he's behind. 250 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.240 In New Zealand, there was a policy that was like 251 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:35.399 a real failure, like when they had kind of the 252 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.320 labor government, where they started giving like first time home 253 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.480 buyers like a big tax credit and basically just like 254 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.080 giving people more money to try to help them get 255 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.080 a house, which sounds on paper like a good idea, 256 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.440 but what happened is housing prices went through the roof 257 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:53.759 because all of a sudden, there's more people have money 258 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.519 to buy houses, but they're not actually building more houses. 259 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:58.759 So therefore the price of houses went way up because 260 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.559 everyone was trying to buy into market. So like, you 261 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.120 need more than just like one policy in isolation, like 262 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.919 you need to do more than just give people money 263 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:09.120 to buy houses. You need to increase the supply of houses. 264 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.440 You could definitely do rent freezes. It's just not a 265 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:13.200 long term solution, that's what I mean. It's not a 266 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.120 long term. So definitely it's not like it's catastrophic. 267 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:17.919 No, No, I don't think it's catastrophic. The way that 268 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:19.440 that policy in New Zealand is. 269 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:23.159 Like commodifying the housing market in general is probably more 270 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:24.600 long term issue. 271 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:29.000 But yeah, sorry, capitalist realism. 272 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.000 Yeah, we should pivot back to that. 273 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.240 Yeah, I can. I can bring it to that. Just 274 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.480 I was surprised you want to talk about this boo 275 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.639 because I was thinking of, like, this is the one 276 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.399 book that's probably talked about too much on the left. 277 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.480 In fact, it's so I knew that this book was 278 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.000 something unique when a few years ago I would see 279 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.960 people's hinge profiles like have capitalist Realism in it sometimes, 280 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:53.559 and it was like one of these books you would 281 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:54.360 see people. 282 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.320 Just really quote on the dating app. 283 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.919 Yeah. Well what I mean is like you'd find normy 284 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.000 is quote unquote nor me is. Are people who aren't 285 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.720 really into theory like that who would know about this 286 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:06.039 book and kind of like it. 287 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.879 I think signal that they're like I'm kind of into theory. 288 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:10.840 They just have like, yeah, post realism. 289 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:14.000 Quote, which it is very accessible. It is very accessible 290 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:14.840 a virtue. 291 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.840 Yeah, And I think the other thing about it is 292 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.639 that it really is like Jamison Jishak and I would 293 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.360 say parts of Christopher lash kind of distilled in this 294 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.559 more accessible format, although Christopher lash is very accessible and 295 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:30.559 I think he's much better to be honest, But like, 296 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.039 this book is good. I mean it resonates with people, 297 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.399 I think because of the examples when he talks about, 298 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:41.399 like in university, how there's this one idea I remember 299 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.480 resonated with me a lot, was this idea of depressive 300 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:48.759 hydonia as opposed to add hidonia, which like traditionally you 301 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:51.799 can get diagnosed for not being able to feel pleasure, 302 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.639 but he thinks the sort of zeitgeist of a lot 303 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.360 of young people is actually this inability to not feel 304 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.919 anything but constant pleasure. It's like addiction, but it kind 305 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.120 of numbness as a result of that. And how you 306 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:08.279 would see people in his classes like wearing headphones all 307 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.240 the time, even if they weren't listening to anything. Yeah, 308 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.159 you know what I mean. It was just just this 309 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.639 obsession with always wanting to be distracted. So it resonates 310 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:17.720 in terms. 311 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.200 Of art, resonated with me definitely. 312 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.039 In terms of what it says. You know, there's the 313 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.799 kind of obvious like people can't imagine anything outside of capitalism, 314 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:28.559 but I think there's other aspects of it that are 315 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:32.240 more interesting. I know, you know, I'm curious what you 316 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:36.279 guys's favorite chapter was. For me, it's Marxist Supernanny, the 317 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:37.279 chapter nine, I. 318 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.240 Believe, Yeah, the last one, I think, Yeah. 319 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.320 Marxist Supernanny has this has a point that I think 320 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:46.360 gets at something a lot of other Left authors, except 321 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:50.879 the likes of Jijik and maybe Lash and Jamison, get at, 322 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.960 which is actually this idea of Marxist supernanny. Is this 323 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.159 idea that you know what, like the left has defined 324 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:01.519 itself about freedom for so long, and but what is 325 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.599 capitalism's big, big strength. It's like constantly giving people things 326 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:09.640 that they want, but not giving things them what they need. Right, 327 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.559 it's giving them what they want but not what they need. 328 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.960 And what is the left's role in this? Is it 329 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.519 to like accelerate the wave of capital by you know 330 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.079 more opening up more windows of freedom and you know, 331 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.880 desire or is it actually to kind of be like, hey, 332 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.000 you know what, protect us from what we want and 333 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.000 give us what we need. Like this is the whole 334 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:34.799 point about the supernanny. The supernanny. Oh, I should really 335 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.119 probably elaborate on this super nanny for those who don't know, 336 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.440 is this TV show in Britain which was basically about 337 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.279 this like very menacing, big supernanny woman who would be 338 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.000 called in by parents who had no ability to like 339 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.640 manage their kids, and their kids would be total delinquents, misbehaving, just. 340 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:54.640 Like Missus Stoubtfire type of thing. 341 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.160 Yeah, yeah, exactly, like kind of just like eating ten 342 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.680 chocolate bars a day, won't want to listen to their 343 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.720 parents and it's just video games. And usually it would 344 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.519 often be like single mothers who need to call in, 345 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:09.119 or very where I would say permissive liberal dads, So 346 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:13.680 I dad's do I say? Like featured, who would be 347 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.480 calling it would be calling in the super nanny to 348 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:19.839 go manage the kids, and she would bring in this 349 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.240 like really harsh discipline, but like in a way that 350 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.680 would work, not just like mindless, you know, not like 351 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.640 just beating kids or something, but just effective discipline that 352 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.599 would put the kid's life in order and get them 353 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.880 to actually listen, because you need that for kids to 354 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.920 grow up, like some level of obedience. Right, And he 355 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.759 thinks that's emblematic a little bit of capitalist culture. And 356 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.720 then how it kind of destroys our discipline willpower through 357 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.119 constant consumerism, and how it's in the system's interest to 358 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.440 do that. And how if if a lot of people 359 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.279 seem to actually kind of crave and to some extent, 360 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:00.400 like I feel almost like I have I'm free, but 361 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:03.240 in a way that actually hinder me. You know, Young 362 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.160 John gets at this a lot like, how now we're 363 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.000 masters of our own exploitation, and how maybe actually there's 364 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:13.000 been a collapse of authority, but in a collapse of 365 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.599 authority except for like capitalist hierarchies, but in all these 366 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.720 other arrangements, like the family, there's a collapse of authority, 367 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.559 collapse of communal authority, religious authority, and all that's good 368 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.640 for capitalist interest to kind of colonize everything. And I 369 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.880 thought that chapter was great, and I wish it was 370 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:33.079 longer because I wish he took that logic to a 371 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.559 bigger conclusion, because I think a lot that goes over 372 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:38.920 a lot of people's heads, and that's stuff that lash 373 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.839 in the culture and Narcissism has been saying since, you know, 374 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:44.119 first book was in the seventies and in the eighties. 375 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:46.160 In a way, I'm not surprised that it goes over 376 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.359 people's heads, because it does suggest maybe some conclusions that 377 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.799 are traditionally associated with a more right leaning or at 378 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.920 least right right leaning analysis of culture. 379 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:57.319 I mean Christopher Lash. 380 00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:58.759 Too, like for those of you that don't know listening, 381 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:00.759 is someone that you know, I think that if you 382 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.480 actually read him, it's not really like clear that you 383 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.079 can just say he's a right wing figure. But the 384 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.200 right has co opted him like recently, like the right wing, 385 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:11.839 like like the post liberals have kind of like used 386 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.480 taken a lot of inspiration from Christopher Latch But like 387 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.000 I think I'm tempted to say that Lash would even 388 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:19.720 likely reject that characterization, but well. 389 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:23.640 His daughter does actually very much dislike the way he 390 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.680 is used by the likes of Steve Bannon, because Steve 391 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.440 Banner claims to be influenced by revolt of the elites, 392 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:31.640 and when you think about that, it's not hard to 393 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.920 see how. But Christopher Lash saw himself, as he described 394 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:41.240 himself as a socialist in economics and a small sea 395 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:46.880 culturally conservative on small cea culturally conservative but socialist on economics, 396 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.680 and you start off as a full on Marxist at 397 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.240 the beginning of his career. So he has a kind 398 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.319 of historical materialist look at things, and he's been critical 399 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:58.319 of both the left and right, Like he'd be critical 400 00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:02.359 of the right for not really proposing like material solutions 401 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:07.359