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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode of Monster Talk deals with some explicit sexual

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<v Speaker 2>topics and may not be suitable for all listeners. You've

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<v Speaker 2>probably heard or used the word gargantuan to describe something large.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you know that that word is a literary illusion.

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<v Speaker 2>It comes from a set of stories by Francois Rebelae

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<v Speaker 2>about two giants called Gargantua and Pantagrule, first published in

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen thirty two. In these satirical stories, Gargantua, one of

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<v Speaker 2>the giants, sets up a monastery of Philima. And here

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<v Speaker 2>is how it's described. In all their rule and strictest

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<v Speaker 2>tie of their order, there was but this one clause

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<v Speaker 2>to be observed.

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<v Speaker 3>Do what thou.

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<v Speaker 2>Wilt Philima means will. In nineteen o four, a man

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<v Speaker 2>named Alistair Crowley published what he claims to be divinely

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<v Speaker 2>received wisdom as the Book of the Law, a publication

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<v Speaker 2>which has become famously well known by shorthand reference to

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<v Speaker 2>its similar command.

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<v Speaker 3>Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

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<v Speaker 2>One work of famous literary satire, the other a holy

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<v Speaker 2>book of the magical religion of Thelema. Make of that

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<v Speaker 2>what thou wilt. In this episode, we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about a man who gave himself more titles than a

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventies Italian horror film, including The Beast six sixty six.

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<v Speaker 2>His real name was Alistair Crowley.

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<v Speaker 4>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 1>A giant, hairy creature.

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<v Speaker 4>Part eight, Part Matt in Luckness, a twenty four a

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<v Speaker 4>mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland if

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<v Speaker 4>a creature known as the Luckness Monster.

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<v Speaker 1>Morenster Talk.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Blake Smith. We're almost finished with my currently planned series

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<v Speaker 2>on magic. I still want to talk about Jack Parsons

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<v Speaker 2>and about Margaret Murray's book The Witch Cult in Western Europe,

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<v Speaker 2>but we'll be back to more direct monster coverage first.

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<v Speaker 2>Though to be fair, there are many who would call

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<v Speaker 2>the subject of this episode a real monster. We'll dig

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<v Speaker 2>into some of the biographical material on Crowley in this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>but if you check the show notes, there's some fantastic

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<v Speaker 2>links if you're interested in seeing.

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<v Speaker 3>Some contemporary coverage of his life.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an interesting documentary from the BBC that was part

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<v Speaker 2>of a four part series called Masters of Darkness that

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<v Speaker 2>covered Crowley in one episode. A fairly complete version of

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<v Speaker 2>that's on.

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<v Speaker 3>YouTube, and I put links to that in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's a page with digitized copies of the tabloid

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<v Speaker 2>coverage of his various exploits, some of which are shocking

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<v Speaker 2>even today, or at least the claims are. He's famously

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<v Speaker 2>been called the wickedest man in the world, and it

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<v Speaker 2>seems to me like he would have just reveled in

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<v Speaker 2>such epithets because infamy was as good as fame to him.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a writer, a poet, a cult leader, and

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<v Speaker 2>by many accounts, a total and complete bastard. In the documentary,

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<v Speaker 2>a few career highlights show up. For example, he was

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<v Speaker 2>a very good mountain climber, but then he had a

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<v Speaker 2>scandalous episode where he allegedly refused to help his companions

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<v Speaker 2>after an avalanche because of some falling out that they

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<v Speaker 2>had had. He bought a house on the coast of

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<v Speaker 2>Lochness called Bileskin House and conducted a magical ritual there

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<v Speaker 2>which was supposed to give him access to his guardian angel,

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<v Speaker 2>but which required first to summon princes from hell, and

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<v Speaker 2>then he didn't finish that ceremony, which led to rumors

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<v Speaker 2>and legends about what failing to complete such a ritual

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<v Speaker 2>could lead to. In the nineteen twenties, he went to

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<v Speaker 2>Sicily and started a church based on his religious teachings,

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<v Speaker 2>but soon was deported because of the scandalous accusations that

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<v Speaker 2>his cult had conducted bestiality, sacrifices, and some of the

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<v Speaker 2>practices which had led to the death of one young member.

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<v Speaker 2>He used up lovers and left them destroyed, and he

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<v Speaker 2>spent much of his life enslaved by drug addictions. Yet

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<v Speaker 2>somehow he's seemed by many as a kind of hero

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<v Speaker 2>whose intent to harness the power of human will is

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<v Speaker 2>despite the failings of the man who brought the teachings

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<v Speaker 2>a path to a fulfilling life. The problem I have

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<v Speaker 2>with talking about Crowley, especially from a position of wanting

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<v Speaker 2>to be historically accurate, is that I can't tell what

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<v Speaker 2>portion of the stuff written about him is true and

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<v Speaker 2>what is complete bullshit. It is deeply frustrating. The majority

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<v Speaker 2>of the news cover's ridiculous missmash of rumors and allegations,

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<v Speaker 2>and is not very different from the news stories from

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<v Speaker 2>tabloids today. I can tell you this, though his influence

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<v Speaker 2>after his death has grown because of the fascination that

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<v Speaker 2>many in the entertainment business feel for him. Many musicians

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<v Speaker 2>have referenced him. Ozzy Osbourne's song Mister Crowley, though it

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<v Speaker 2>mispronounces his name, is just one example. Jimmy Page of

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<v Speaker 2>led Zeppelin bought Bileskinhause and owned it for several years

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<v Speaker 2>and apparently owns a lot of Crowley's writings. In addition

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<v Speaker 2>to many other magical tomes, Crowley influenced other magical thinkers

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<v Speaker 2>as well, and his religion lives on today. The counterculture

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<v Speaker 2>of the sixties and seventies seemed to consider him a

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<v Speaker 2>natural fit, though very little of Croley's life comes across

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<v Speaker 2>as particularly groovy. But let's get onto this interview, which

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<v Speaker 2>is the third and final part of my interview with

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<v Speaker 2>John L. Crow Hopefully, across these three episodes we will

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<v Speaker 2>have provided some context to understand what was going on

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<v Speaker 2>in the world to produce a man like Alister Crowley

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<v Speaker 2>Morenstertle Okay, So, in our previous discussion, we were talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the rise of esotericism and occultism in Western civilization,

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<v Speaker 2>and we talked about theosophy and briefly about the Golden Dawn,

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<v Speaker 2>and our goal here is to guide into a discussion

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<v Speaker 2>about Alistair Crowley, and well, let's can we maybe could

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<v Speaker 2>you give us a few biographical details.

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<v Speaker 3>About him and then how he gets involved in this movement.

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<v Speaker 4>Sure, he grew up very upper middle class. His father

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<v Speaker 4>had a beer brewing business, Curly Beer, and.

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<v Speaker 5>He basically had a.

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<v Speaker 4>Strict environment because although his parents were brewers, they were

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<v Speaker 4>part of a very conservative Protestant denomination called the Plymouth Brotherhood.

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<v Speaker 2>A quick editorial correction, it's actually the Plymouth Brethren and

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<v Speaker 2>a link to more information about them as in the

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<v Speaker 2>show notes.

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<v Speaker 4>And they stopped him from being able to participate in

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<v Speaker 4>normal childhood activities with toys and playing with friends and all.

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<v Speaker 1>Of these things that we come to back.

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<v Speaker 4>To children do for normal socialization. Instead, he had a

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<v Speaker 4>more tumultuous of an experience.

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<v Speaker 5>He was very.

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<v Speaker 4>Dedicated to his father, and his father died when he

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<v Speaker 4>was young. That caused a financial and social crisis within

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<v Speaker 4>his family. He ended up living with some relatives he

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<v Speaker 4>had negative experiences with, and then when off was went

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<v Speaker 4>to school and again had negative experiences there. So he

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<v Speaker 4>had a very difficult childhood, and through that he came

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<v Speaker 4>to identify a lot of it with Christianity. So he

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<v Speaker 4>started to rebel against the kind of Protestant strict religion

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<v Speaker 4>and instead he said, well, if the Polymouth Brotherhood were

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<v Speaker 4>about God and Jesus rejecting the devil and being very conservaive,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm going to do the exact opposite. I'm going to

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<v Speaker 4>embrace the diabolic and I'm going to embrace hedonism. And

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<v Speaker 4>so we could see by the time he is in

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<v Speaker 4>college that he is indulging this lifestyle. He's starting to

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<v Speaker 4>become educated in philosophy and science.

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<v Speaker 1>He also has an interest.

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<v Speaker 4>In poetry, in literature, he is also interested in theater.

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<v Speaker 4>So he's becoming very well rounded, getting a very good

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<v Speaker 4>education that his economic status allowed. And so he ultimately

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<v Speaker 4>rejects graduation, becomes a poet and gets involved in various

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<v Speaker 4>kinds of activities, and one of them is the Golden Dawn.

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<v Speaker 4>Through a friend, he is introduced to the Golden Dawn

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<v Speaker 4>and he attends, and he's by this point has a

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<v Speaker 4>very significant interest in esoteric subjects occultism. And we should

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<v Speaker 4>also look at the timeline with theosophy beginning in eighteen

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<v Speaker 4>seventy five, and spiritualism, mesmerism, new thought. All of these

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<v Speaker 4>traditions being established or coming into being. It was a

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<v Speaker 4>very potent environment for him to take.

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<v Speaker 1>These ideas and run with it.

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<v Speaker 4>So he's encountered these esoteric and occult ideas from a

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<v Speaker 4>variety of places, including the Kabbala and so forth.

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<v Speaker 5>So when he's introduced to the.

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<v Speaker 4>Golden Dawn, he's very, very apt, very eager, and he

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<v Speaker 4>begins to excel in the Golden don it's also here,

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<v Speaker 4>after a couple of years, that he meets Alan Bennett,

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<v Speaker 4>who was considered the second best magician in the Golden

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<v Speaker 4>Dawn next to Mather's one of the founders, and they

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<v Speaker 4>get along very well. Craley sees an opportunity because Bennett

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<v Speaker 4>comes he's very ill and comes from a very poor family.

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<v Speaker 4>Curly says, look, if you give me teachings in magic,

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<v Speaker 4>I will put you up and give you a place

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<v Speaker 4>to live and give you resources so that you can

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<v Speaker 4>practice magic.

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<v Speaker 5>And so they do.

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<v Speaker 4>They get a flat, and so we see in eighteen

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<v Speaker 4>ninety nine they're living together. Craley is getting lessons from Bennett,

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<v Speaker 4>and Bennett's.

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<v Speaker 5>Health is on the mend to some degree.

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<v Speaker 4>So it worked out very well for them in these

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<v Speaker 4>last eighteen nineties. But already here we see that Bennett

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<v Speaker 4>had an interest in Eastern traditions.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a member.

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<v Speaker 4>Of the Theosophical Society early in the eighteen nineties, and

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<v Speaker 4>so eventually Bennett will leave the Golden Dawn. And in

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<v Speaker 4>that same time frame, when Bennett leaves in nineteen hundred,

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<v Speaker 4>Crowley is worked his way up to the Inner Order,

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<v Speaker 4>but the members of the lodge don't want him to

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<v Speaker 4>enter the Inner Order, and so that we have this

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<v Speaker 4>huge personality conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>But this is he's coming out of a position of

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<v Speaker 2>being upper middle class and from a university time period, right,

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<v Speaker 2>so he's already he's like a seeker and seeking education

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<v Speaker 2>in a classical since at the same time, is that

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<v Speaker 2>what we're saying.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, he definitely was interested in being educated, and he

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<v Speaker 4>was very well read. He had access to lots of

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<v Speaker 4>learning resources even before going to college, but he was

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<v Speaker 4>coming from an environment that stressed education, so he was

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<v Speaker 4>very literate. He read a lot, and he while in

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<v Speaker 4>college he had access to philosophy and the sciences and literature,

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<v Speaker 4>so he was participating in various degrees in both humanities,

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<v Speaker 4>and what we would consider the STEM stuff, I mean

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<v Speaker 4>within the context of the end of the nineteen hundreds.

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<v Speaker 4>But he was absorbed in these ideas and really expanding

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<v Speaker 4>them because he wasn't limited in an ideology that said

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<v Speaker 4>that there's no connection between these humanistic ideas and these

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<v Speaker 4>scientific ideas. He was looking at them as part of

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<v Speaker 4>a whole. And so one of the things that encumbers

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<v Speaker 4>people and thinking about stuff today is they think, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't need humanities, I'm doing STEM. But they don't

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<v Speaker 4>understand that minds in the world around us aren't categorized

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<v Speaker 4>in kind of the disciplines. The way things manifest and

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<v Speaker 4>influence and feet on one another are are a lot

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<v Speaker 4>more fluid, and so the boundaries that we create discipline

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<v Speaker 4>wise sometimes inhibit thinking.

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<v Speaker 5>He was not participating in that.

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<v Speaker 4>In fact, he was participating in a very unbounded thinking.

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<v Speaker 4>So he would include esoteric knowledge and occultism along with

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<v Speaker 4>literature and science and they were all one big mix

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<v Speaker 4>of ideas influences that he had no problem pulling together.

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<v Speaker 3>So he's also.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a he's at least bisexual, right, I mean, I.

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<v Speaker 5>Think I think it's hard for us to.

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<v Speaker 4>Deal with the fluidity of his sexuality using today's terms. Again,

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<v Speaker 4>we very much are uncomfortable with things being undefined, so

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<v Speaker 4>we have since since the sexual Revolution and feminism and

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<v Speaker 4>all of this exposure to a variety of human sexual preferences,

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<v Speaker 4>sexual practices, sexual modalities. People want to break it up

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<v Speaker 4>into various kinds of categories of gay, lesbian, bisexual, queer, transgien.

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<v Speaker 4>That's fine, but when you start projecting those categories back

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<v Speaker 4>into a time period in which they didn't exist, it

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<v Speaker 4>becomes a little more dice. What we do know is

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<v Speaker 4>that Crawley had love emotional love for men and women,

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<v Speaker 4>and that he participated in sexual activities with men and women. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>some people want to say he's gay and that he

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<v Speaker 4>really wasn't into women, or that he was bisexual, or

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<v Speaker 4>those debates. In many ways, fine if that's what people

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<v Speaker 4>the direction they want to take it, But in some

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<v Speaker 4>sense those categories are not helpful because they're trying to

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<v Speaker 4>bring in the reel in or bracket or closed down

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<v Speaker 4>his sexual activity. And the fact is he participated in

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of different kinds of sexual activity with different

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<v Speaker 4>people of different genders, so he.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess, let me ask it this way, so I

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<v Speaker 2>think one of the challenges I have is a modern

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<v Speaker 2>un initiated reader or an interested party.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't even know what to call myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm curious about all this as it relates to magic.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of times when I read about this stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>it's craully participated in sexual rituals for magical purposes, and

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how that actually plays out as opposed

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<v Speaker 2>to sexual encounters for merely hedonistic purposes or as part

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<v Speaker 2>of long term relationships. There's all these different ways to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of categorize sex acts. But I'm curious about how

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<v Speaker 2>sex magic works because I keep seeing that phrase sex

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<v Speaker 2>magic and sex magic rituals. I have no idea what

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<v Speaker 2>it means. I don't understand. What you know is that

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<v Speaker 2>like the magic is released through orgasm. I really don't

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<v Speaker 2>understand at all. So, like, if you have any insight

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<v Speaker 2>to that, I would really be curious about what that means.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, sex magic has a large variety of manifestations. And

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<v Speaker 4>if you think about what are the areas of human

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<v Speaker 4>activity that have the most intensity emotional connection, If you

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<v Speaker 4>want to talk in terms of energy build up, the

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<v Speaker 4>the largest pools of energy and engagement of an individual

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<v Speaker 4>or individuals, and that would certainly include, if not be

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<v Speaker 4>led by sexuality. And so participation in sexual activity in

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<v Speaker 4>a ritual context is simply using the various methods of

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<v Speaker 4>sex engagement, and that could be anything from masturbation to

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<v Speaker 4>intercourse of both men and women or women together or

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<v Speaker 4>men together or as a group of very genders. All

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<v Speaker 4>of these kinds of techniques are means to move consciousness

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<v Speaker 4>or move energy, or to consecrate an object to one's

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<v Speaker 4>wills or desires, or to create a context for g

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<v Speaker 4>nosis or access to a transcendent knowledge. So it really

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<v Speaker 4>depends on what the goals are of the participants. It

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<v Speaker 4>could be as mundane as you want something done, you

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<v Speaker 4>create a talisman for it, and then to focus your

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<v Speaker 4>will and notions about that and participate in mascipiatory activities

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<v Speaker 4>and then with climax or something coming from that, bodily

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<v Speaker 4>fluids those that consecrates the talisman. It could be as

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<v Speaker 4>extensive as individuals participating in group sexuality and using bodily

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<v Speaker 4>fluids or orgasm or the energy from it to consecrate

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<v Speaker 4>things or to get an individual or multiple participants in

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<v Speaker 4>a state of consciousness that are receptive to mystical experience

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<v Speaker 4>or knowledge. It's just there's all kinds of different ways

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<v Speaker 4>that it can participate. And some of the examples for

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<v Speaker 4>Croley in his sex with Victor Neuberg is they had

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<v Speaker 4>sex in the desert for during their times in which

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<v Speaker 4>they were doing Anokian works and scrying in the ethers,

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<v Speaker 4>and so they would use sexual intercourse to get Curley

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<v Speaker 4>in a mystical state and so that he was more

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<v Speaker 4>receptive and could participate in the scrying of Anokian.

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<v Speaker 1>Ethers and so forth.

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<v Speaker 4>So there's a large variety of activities that manifest sexually,

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<v Speaker 4>and sex magic is basically harnessing those activities for magical ends.

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<v Speaker 3>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>So it reminds me of we did an episode on homunculus,

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<v Speaker 2>and the concept of trying to create some sort of

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<v Speaker 2>life with a single person is typically the way I've

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<v Speaker 2>read is a male right. So I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>there's any rituals for making a female based homunculus, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but there are.

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<v Speaker 4>There are rituals of sexual intercourse between men and women

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<v Speaker 4>to create homunculus. And if you think of the climax

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<v Speaker 4>at a moment in which the male and female are

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<v Speaker 4>come together preferably and simultaneous climax to create the material

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<v Speaker 4>basis which then could be used as the grounding for

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<v Speaker 4>the creation of a spiritual being one that the goal

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00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:10.960
<v Speaker 4>of that spiritual being's existence is the culmination of the

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<v Speaker 4>will of the participants.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think that's, uh, that'll tie into some

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00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.880
<v Speaker 2>stuff where we'll be looking at in the future, at

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<v Speaker 2>least some of the stuff alleged to have been.

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<v Speaker 3>The gold Jack Parsons for example, Right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>So that's exactly what's what Jack Parsons was was doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's it's really interesting. So the these uh

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<v Speaker 2>but now do you know this this is this part

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<v Speaker 2>of Eastern religion or is this part of Eastern tradition

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<v Speaker 2>or is this part of something that's come out of

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<v Speaker 2>these esoteric movements that they claim is part of an

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<v Speaker 2>Eastern tradition that's not I I'm finding it hard to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of reconcile what is absolutely, you know, being repurposed

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<v Speaker 2>in what's being sort of created at hock for these

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<v Speaker 2>other movements.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not really sure how to word that exactly. Does

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<v Speaker 3>that make sense?

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<v Speaker 2>Like, what's legitimately part of Eastern tradition that they're repurposing

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00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:16.920
<v Speaker 2>and what is maybe just created from their own interest

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<v Speaker 2>in trying to get these results.

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<v Speaker 5>We don't know.

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<v Speaker 4>The difficulty is, first of all, if you're talking specifically

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<v Speaker 4>about sex magic, we're talking about a time period where

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<v Speaker 4>people don't talk about sex that often, and when they do,

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00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:36.599
<v Speaker 4>they talk in veiled terms. So what is Eastern and

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00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:41.920
<v Speaker 4>what isn't Eastern really comes down to the claims of people,

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<v Speaker 4>And there certainly are claims that the knowledge that they have.

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<v Speaker 4>For instance, somebody involved in spiritualism and her Brotherhood of

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<v Speaker 4>Lights and pbe Randolph. He was a mixed race spiritualists

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<v Speaker 4>who also claim to travel in the Middle East and

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<v Speaker 4>become initiated and had sex magic rights and used hallucinogenic

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<v Speaker 4>substances like hashish as part of magical ritual. Those claims

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00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.759
<v Speaker 4>are made or similar ones by other people.

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<v Speaker 5>We don't know.

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00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:36.200
<v Speaker 4>It is certainly not part of the exoteric practices of

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<v Speaker 4>Eastern religions. Probably the one exception are high level tantric

337
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:50.079
<v Speaker 4>practices that participate in sexual intercourse in tantric Hinduism and

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00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:54.039
<v Speaker 4>tentric Buddhism. But what people miss there is that the

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<v Speaker 4>goals of those intercourse participations is not orgasm. In fact,

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00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.759
<v Speaker 4>orgasm would be considered failure in tantric practice. Instead, the

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00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.920
<v Speaker 4>goal is to maintain engagement in the sexual activity while

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<v Speaker 4>building up energy and then taking that energy and using

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<v Speaker 4>it for other means, versus releasing it in orgasm. So

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<v Speaker 4>when when Westerners talk about tantra, they usually have it

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00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:27.000
<v Speaker 4>very very wrong in terms of its resemblance of Eastern practice.

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<v Speaker 4>That doesn't mean Western forms of tantra are wrong, they're

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00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:34.559
<v Speaker 4>just different. And that's that's the one thing that we

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00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.519
<v Speaker 4>should also keep in mind when we're looking at origins

349
00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:39.799
<v Speaker 4>or looking for origins.

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<v Speaker 1>In some cases, it doesn't matter.

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<v Speaker 4>This is what this teaching is from this group and

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<v Speaker 4>what they where they got it from, could be invented,

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<v Speaker 4>could be an amalgam of different sources, or both.

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<v Speaker 1>In some sense, it.

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<v Speaker 4>Doesn't really matter. What matters is what they do with

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<v Speaker 4>it and what they claim about it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I didn't want to take us down too big

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<v Speaker 2>of a rabbit hole, ye i am. I was just

359
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.920
<v Speaker 2>very curious about that because I read a lot in

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00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.680
<v Speaker 2>preparation for these interviews, and nothing really broke it out

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<v Speaker 2>very specifically. I was a little curious about what was

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<v Speaker 2>sex magic and sexual ritual is an easy thing to say,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's a broad category that could be a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of things, so I didn't really know what was under

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<v Speaker 2>the hood.

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<v Speaker 4>It really is broad and there it is multifaceted. And

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<v Speaker 4>there are some scholars who have spent a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>time looking at this and looking at esoteric traditions and

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<v Speaker 4>the transmission of various kinds of sex related religious practices

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<v Speaker 4>and spiritual practices, and I don't claim to be one

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<v Speaker 4>of those specialists, so I don't want to go too

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<v Speaker 4>far down that subject. I think they would be better

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<v Speaker 4>people to have on your show. But there is a

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<v Speaker 4>lot there and it is very interesting, and it would

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<v Speaker 4>and it does touch a lot on particularly Crowley and

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<v Speaker 4>the OTO and also the other organizations in which Curley

377
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:15.200
<v Speaker 4>participated in his AA and his magical teachings and subsequent students,

378
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:21.359
<v Speaker 4>because Crawley was one who was adamant of positive correlation

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<v Speaker 4>between magical practice and sexual activity, whereas on the opposite side,

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<v Speaker 4>someone like Blovatski insisted on celibacy, so no sexual practice

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<v Speaker 4>of any kind, including no masturbation, so that the person

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00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.799
<v Speaker 4>remains pure and focused and is not distracted by lust,

383
00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:49.920
<v Speaker 4>sexual desire, or physical engagement of sexual acts, and so

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<v Speaker 4>you'll actually see people within theosophy who were married stop

385
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:58.839
<v Speaker 4>having sex, or people getting married and having celibate marriages,

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00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.759
<v Speaker 4>or not even getting married ever because they don't want

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00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:06.920
<v Speaker 4>to participate in that kind of activity. And Blovatski herself

388
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.119
<v Speaker 4>claimed never to have consummated her two marriages.

389
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Huh, I've been married for like eighteen years.

390
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:19.279
<v Speaker 3>I think our anniversary's tomorrow, So it's not my way.

391
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, say no, honey, It's an abstinence for sexual magical powers.

392
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.400
<v Speaker 3>Totally cool. So yeah, I don't think I could sell that, so.

393
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.319
<v Speaker 5>You know, most people can't.

394
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:37.759
<v Speaker 4>And theosophy what they said, especially during the time of Blovatski,

395
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:43.519
<v Speaker 4>was you know what, that's okay, get married and participate

396
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.799
<v Speaker 4>the best you can. Just understand that your inability to

397
00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:52.279
<v Speaker 4>discipline yourself in that sexual sense means that in this

398
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:53.720
<v Speaker 4>lifetime you are not.

399
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.079
<v Speaker 1>Going to reach the highest levels of spiritual development.

400
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, I guess it's the price I have to pay.

401
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.920
<v Speaker 4>But on the other side, you know, you get people

402
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.960
<v Speaker 4>who are practicing Crowley systems, like you're never going to

403
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.079
<v Speaker 4>get to the highest levels of spiritual development unless you

404
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.039
<v Speaker 4>participate in certain forms of sexual activity.

405
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.000
<v Speaker 3>So it really.

406
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.839
<v Speaker 4>Just depends on the system and you know what its

407
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.960
<v Speaker 4>view on the body and desire and all of.

408
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:23.920
<v Speaker 1>These kinds of things are.

409
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:29.039
<v Speaker 4>And that's why focusing on questions on the body and

410
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 4>how the body is constructed and the use of the

411
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.440
<v Speaker 4>body in a magical and esoteric practice becomes really helpful

412
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:39.720
<v Speaker 4>in kind of getting into the ideas that are underlying it.

413
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 4>Because the body is bad, then all the wants and

414
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:47.960
<v Speaker 4>needs of the body become demonized i e. Sexual intercourse.

415
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 4>Whereas if the body is seen as ultimately good and

416
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.279
<v Speaker 4>is your connection to the world, then things of its

417
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.000
<v Speaker 4>needs and its participation in the world through sexual activity

418
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:04.519
<v Speaker 4>and other activities, then those are inherently good. So notions

419
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:07.960
<v Speaker 4>of the body, it's construction and the overall orientation to

420
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:13.440
<v Speaker 4>it becomes a prime indicator of what the ideologies of

421
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:15.839
<v Speaker 4>that organization or that system are.

422
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:16.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.480
<v Speaker 2>So with Crowley, he's over the course of like since

424
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:26.359
<v Speaker 2>he's he's left us, he's gotten this sort of legendary status.

425
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.960
<v Speaker 3>He shows up in pop culture. You see him in The.

426
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:32.000
<v Speaker 5>Black Sabbath.

427
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.039
<v Speaker 2>Is just Ozzy Osbourn the mister Crowley song. I think

428
00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:36.599
<v Speaker 2>that's although he's his Crowley, But I think that's wrong.

429
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I know it is a Black Sabbath song here

430
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:43.720
<v Speaker 4>so shows up and I think, I mean, there's lots

431
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:49.359
<v Speaker 4>of groups. I mean, Black Sabbath and Ozzy are the

432
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:51.640
<v Speaker 4>most obvious making a reference to him.

433
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:54.880
<v Speaker 3>But to b Paige is a huge fan. Tov.

434
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Paige goes on to buy Bileskin House and that for

435
00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a while, which is where Crowley did some of his rituals.

436
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:09.839
<v Speaker 2>And so he's got this huge, maybe outsized pop culture

437
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:11.720
<v Speaker 2>presence outside of the.

438
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:18.319
<v Speaker 3>Direct religious side of him.

439
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:21.119
<v Speaker 2>So like, in one sense, most people know him as

440
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:26.359
<v Speaker 2>sort of this dark figure in Western culture. And I

441
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.599
<v Speaker 2>think that's only dark in contrasted with Judeo Christian views, right,

442
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know how dark he is within

443
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:34.039
<v Speaker 2>magical tradition.

444
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:40.640
<v Speaker 4>Well, well, you know, it's funny because he did participate

445
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:47.160
<v Speaker 4>and publicly announced his engagement in various kinds of sexual activities,

446
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:50.960
<v Speaker 4>various kinds of magical practices and so forth. And you're right,

447
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:58.359
<v Speaker 4>by more traditional or conservative Judeo Christian morality, these things

448
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:01.559
<v Speaker 4>are seen as bad, which is also why he got,

449
00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:06.400
<v Speaker 4>you know, the yellow journalism label of the most wicked man.

450
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:12.079
<v Speaker 4>But one has to wonder when you start stacking up

451
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:16.720
<v Speaker 4>what he did in a larger context to people who

452
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:23.319
<v Speaker 4>have participated or engineered genocide, and sadly, in the twentieth century,

453
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:31.839
<v Speaker 4>we've had many political leaders cause or facilitate genocide. In

454
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.799
<v Speaker 4>comparison to that, I don't know how wicked he is.

455
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:39.480
<v Speaker 4>He never killed anybody. He never caused the death of

456
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.400
<v Speaker 4>groups of people, or caused you know, whole territories or

457
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:49.599
<v Speaker 4>whatever to be destroyed, or mass incineration of human beings.

458
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, it's almost comical to say it compared to some

459
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.359
<v Speaker 2>of the sort of things that happened in the latter

460
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.720
<v Speaker 2>half of the twentieth century, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, to

461
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:01.000
<v Speaker 2>say you're the wickedt man of the world. And you know,

462
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>basically that goes down to you know, breaking as many

463
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.119
<v Speaker 2>of the commandments as you can, that sort of thing

464
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:11.119
<v Speaker 2>that you know, within that context, yes, wicked, but within

465
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:12.039
<v Speaker 2>the sort of.

466
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.759
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to get into moral relativism.

467
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:18.559
<v Speaker 2>As you point out, he did not kill millions of people.

468
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.880
<v Speaker 2>He didn't so much on economic damage to people.

469
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:24.759
<v Speaker 3>He just.

470
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:28.960
<v Speaker 4>I would go so far to say that if you

471
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 4>looked at what happened over the over a weekend in Hollywood,

472
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:38.839
<v Speaker 4>sex with multiple partners outside of marriage of both genders,

473
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:45.799
<v Speaker 4>indulgence in magical rituals, and inclusion of drugs and alcohol.

474
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that happened. So I mean that's what he did.

475
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:56.480
<v Speaker 4>Okay, at the time, that was so you know, taboo

476
00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:58.680
<v Speaker 4>that Yeah, he got.

477
00:32:58.480 --> 00:32:59.400
<v Speaker 5>That kind of label.

478
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.920
<v Speaker 4>But I mean in the modern world, I don't know

479
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:04.720
<v Speaker 4>if it's good or bad. Some might argue either way,

480
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:07.799
<v Speaker 4>but that kind of activity that got him that label

481
00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:10.640
<v Speaker 4>is so common these days, right.

482
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:12.920
<v Speaker 2>I think we've talked about on the show before and

483
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.119
<v Speaker 2>on the conversation we had outside of this interview with

484
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 2>my belief that if he were alive today, he would

485
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.200
<v Speaker 2>fit right in with the sort of Kardashian social media world.

486
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:25.680
<v Speaker 3>He liked to be in the newspaper.

487
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.480
<v Speaker 2>He seemed to like to sort of manage his image

488
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:29.039
<v Speaker 2>quite a bit.

489
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.480
<v Speaker 4>So he did well, he did early on, I think,

490
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:37.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, as he got older, and we have to remember,

491
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:41.880
<v Speaker 4>this is a guy that had a public presence for decades.

492
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:44.599
<v Speaker 4>It's not like he was a shot in the dark

493
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:48.680
<v Speaker 4>who kind of appeared in the you know, the early

494
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:53.680
<v Speaker 4>twentieth century, was a figure of the moment and then disappeared.

495
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:58.279
<v Speaker 4>He was in the public eye across both sides of

496
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.640
<v Speaker 4>the Atlantic in the English speaking.

497
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:03.880
<v Speaker 1>World, four of decades.

498
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:10.000
<v Speaker 4>His activities, his writing, his books, his painting, all of these,

499
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:16.840
<v Speaker 4>his theatrical activities and his ceremonial magic, and his political ideas,

500
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:23.159
<v Speaker 4>all of that were continually being discussed in the newspapers

501
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:29.239
<v Speaker 4>of his day. And so we have decades of his exposure.

502
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:35.800
<v Speaker 4>And he was very sensationalistic, very media attention grabbing in

503
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:39.960
<v Speaker 4>his twenties and early thirties that I think later in

504
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.920
<v Speaker 4>his life he found became more of an impediment to

505
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.440
<v Speaker 4>his spiritual teachings or the goals that he had as

506
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:54.880
<v Speaker 4>being a religious prophet were hindered in many cases by

507
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.119
<v Speaker 4>the image and persona he had put forward in his

508
00:34:59.239 --> 00:34:59.960
<v Speaker 4>younger years.

509
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.599
<v Speaker 2>So most of our listeners are going to know, uh,

510
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.719
<v Speaker 2>let do what thou wilt be the whole of the law, right,

511
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:06.840
<v Speaker 2>They're going to know that line.

512
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.199
<v Speaker 3>But what what exactly does that mean?

513
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.519
<v Speaker 2>And what was the goal of his his breakaway religion

514
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:14.039
<v Speaker 2>to Oto?

515
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:18.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, first of all, the Oto existed before Crowley. Okay,

516
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:21.519
<v Speaker 4>this was this was one of those fringe Masonic groups

517
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:22.800
<v Speaker 4>that was started.

518
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:25.559
<v Speaker 5>It was started in Germany.

519
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:32.079
<v Speaker 4>There's a number of founders, and probably the most prominent

520
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:35.760
<v Speaker 4>is uh Royce and then Kilner, and so they had

521
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:46.000
<v Speaker 4>this very underdeveloped Masonic group and one of the things

522
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.199
<v Speaker 4>that they included in it was.

523
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:50.639
<v Speaker 1>Sex magic.

524
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:59.719
<v Speaker 4>And so when Royce became acquainted with Crowley, he offered

525
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.440
<v Speaker 4>the opportunity to be head of the OTO of the

526
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.400
<v Speaker 4>English speaking world, and Curley accepted.

527
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:07.360
<v Speaker 5>And so.

528
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:17.519
<v Speaker 4>Within that context, Crowley had already received his prophetic channeling

529
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.039
<v Speaker 4>of a Book of the Law. Now, the context in

530
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:28.119
<v Speaker 4>which it was received is frequently debated. He claimed basically

531
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:32.239
<v Speaker 4>that there was a preter natural presence who dictated it

532
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.159
<v Speaker 4>to him while he was in Egypt, and that this

533
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.679
<v Speaker 4>took place over the course of three days. But again

534
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:44.159
<v Speaker 4>the details of this changed slightly over time, and so

535
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.440
<v Speaker 4>it's not worth getting bogged down in it.

536
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:49.960
<v Speaker 5>In the English speaking OTO.

537
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:54.320
<v Speaker 4>He adopted his book the Book of the Law as

538
00:36:54.880 --> 00:37:01.320
<v Speaker 4>a foundation of the English OTO. He reworked the initiations

539
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.519
<v Speaker 4>that he got to include this Book of the Law,

540
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:09.039
<v Speaker 4>which has a system he called Thelema, which means will

541
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:13.519
<v Speaker 4>in Greek. And so it is within that context he

542
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:18.880
<v Speaker 4>started propagating the ideas of the Lima within the OTO.

543
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:23.360
<v Speaker 4>But he also started another group, one modeled very much

544
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:27.519
<v Speaker 4>after the Golden Dawn and even preceding his involvement with

545
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.960
<v Speaker 4>the OTO that he called the AA. And what that

546
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:35.920
<v Speaker 4>AA stands for is variable and depends on people's levels

547
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:37.159
<v Speaker 4>of initiation and.

548
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Knowledge, so I won't even again go there.

549
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.400
<v Speaker 4>Each one of these subjects can become very very deep

550
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:51.280
<v Speaker 4>and take a long tangent, but that one was very

551
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.840
<v Speaker 4>much a thelemic initiatory group where he's taking the Golden

552
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:59.599
<v Speaker 4>Dawn system, taking Thalma and his ideas about magic that developed.

553
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:01.719
<v Speaker 1>And that's the one that.

554
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:09.480
<v Speaker 4>These two groups are evolving independently but overlapping in the

555
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:13.480
<v Speaker 4>sense that the memberships of one are frequently also in

556
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:19.440
<v Speaker 4>the other, and so so there's no Church of Fleema

557
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:23.559
<v Speaker 4>per se in the OTO, because the OTO is a

558
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:29.199
<v Speaker 4>Masonic group doing Masonic like rites. You have your magical group,

559
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:36.159
<v Speaker 4>the AA. And eventually Crowley also participates in getting ordained

560
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:39.960
<v Speaker 4>within the Gnostic Catholic Church. And we should also understand

561
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:42.960
<v Speaker 4>that just as there are all of these fringe kind

562
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:50.360
<v Speaker 4>of Masonic groups within the notions of Apostolic succession coming

563
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:53.599
<v Speaker 4>out of the church, there's all of these Apostolic groups

564
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:57.000
<v Speaker 4>and for people who don't know what that is. According

565
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:01.920
<v Speaker 4>to the Roman Catholic Church, Jesus appointed Peter to be

566
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:04.679
<v Speaker 4>the person that the church is founded on seeph it's

567
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:09.800
<v Speaker 4>the wrong. And so all of the bishops that come

568
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:15.440
<v Speaker 4>out of the Catholic Church go through a physical laying

569
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:18.400
<v Speaker 4>on of hands that put them in what is called

570
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:24.239
<v Speaker 4>apostolic succession. And so there's this long continuous chain of

571
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:28.599
<v Speaker 4>making people bishops, and that there was a physical interaction

572
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:33.199
<v Speaker 4>between two people, one that had that interaction previously and

573
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:36.800
<v Speaker 4>the new one who has that one. And once that's done,

574
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.960
<v Speaker 4>it can never be undone. But there have been people

575
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:44.320
<v Speaker 4>who were in the church got apostolic succession, but then

576
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:47.719
<v Speaker 4>we're thrown out of the Roman Catholic Church. Well, they

577
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:53.199
<v Speaker 4>still have apostolic succession. They were bishops, and they theoretically

578
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.719
<v Speaker 4>can pass it on and they do. So you get

579
00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.519
<v Speaker 4>these lines of apostolic succession outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

580
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 4>The Church frowns upon this, but they can't deny the

581
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:09.480
<v Speaker 4>continuity of these lines. And the participants document it, you know,

582
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:11.840
<v Speaker 4>saying so and so consecrated so and so at this

583
00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:15.639
<v Speaker 4>date and this location, et cetera. But then you have

584
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:18.960
<v Speaker 4>other people who are claiming they were consecrated without any documentation.

585
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:21.719
<v Speaker 5>And then finally you also have.

586
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:26.760
<v Speaker 4>Systems of apostolic succession in which it doesn't trace itself

587
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.480
<v Speaker 4>to the Catholic Church, but it traces itself to a

588
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:36.599
<v Speaker 4>mystical experience of where Jesus appears and gives somebody apostolic

589
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:41.119
<v Speaker 4>succession and restarts a line that was either lost or

590
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:45.079
<v Speaker 4>didn't exist. And one of those lines is the Gnosta

591
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 4>Catholic Church. And there is a mystical experience that a

592
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:55.079
<v Speaker 4>French person has and they start align and so you

593
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:57.639
<v Speaker 4>get this kind of convergence of all these different lines.

594
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.840
<v Speaker 4>And by the way, I point out, one of these

595
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.039
<v Speaker 4>kinds of restarts is also in found in Mormonism. So

596
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.559
<v Speaker 4>this is another tradition that has the priesthood of the Mechisldic.

597
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:14.920
<v Speaker 4>But that one was reconstituted by Jesus to Joseph Smith.

598
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.000
<v Speaker 4>So this is not an uncommon practice. It is one

599
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:23.159
<v Speaker 4>though that you either have it within or outside of

600
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:25.559
<v Speaker 4>the church. And so we see it happening to Croley

601
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.039
<v Speaker 4>and he creates a Gnostic Catholic Church. And I'll also

602
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:31.519
<v Speaker 4>note that the Old Catholic Church, which is another Gnostic

603
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:37.440
<v Speaker 4>one was integrated into theosophy with Leadbeater, and they created

604
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.119
<v Speaker 4>the Liberal Catholic Church through that Gnostic progression, and that

605
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:42.920
<v Speaker 4>exists today.

606
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 3>I've heard of that. I didn't know what it was. Okay,

607
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:45.960
<v Speaker 3>that's interesting.

608
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:51.119
<v Speaker 4>So you have this connection again with this fringe Apostolic

609
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:56.760
<v Speaker 4>succession and these Gnostic churches. And there's numerous Gnostic churches

610
00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:01.960
<v Speaker 4>that exist today that are arising from claims of Apostolic succession,

611
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:05.400
<v Speaker 4>coming either from lines coming from the Catholic Church or

612
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:09.199
<v Speaker 4>through these other kinds of mystical experiences. So there are

613
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:14.679
<v Speaker 4>three independent things ultimately with Croley, the Oto his Aa,

614
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:19.280
<v Speaker 4>and the Gnostic Catholic Church, and all of them incorporate

615
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.199
<v Speaker 4>Thelema in some way or another.

616
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:26.679
<v Speaker 2>So what's Croley's goal with Theleima? What's he trying to

617
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:27.840
<v Speaker 2>accomplish here?

618
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:30.719
<v Speaker 4>He's trying to spread it as a world.

619
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:33.440
<v Speaker 3>Religion, Okay. And then what's it like?

620
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:35.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what are what are the tenets of Thelma?

621
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:39.800
<v Speaker 2>What is how does it compare to other religions.

622
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:43.519
<v Speaker 4>Well, the first thing that is at the core of

623
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:48.599
<v Speaker 4>Thelema is it accentuates the individual over the group. And

624
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.400
<v Speaker 4>this is actually one of the things that is very

625
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.360
<v Speaker 4>hard for a lot of people to accept about that

626
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:59.559
<v Speaker 4>tradition is that the individual is empowered to the level

627
00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:06.800
<v Speaker 4>that their spiritual will, their goals, their reason for being

628
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:11.960
<v Speaker 4>trumps everything else. So if you look at most religious systems,

629
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:18.559
<v Speaker 4>it's about the religion itself and the individual sacrificing themselves,

630
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.599
<v Speaker 4>their will, their desire, turning it over to God's will

631
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:27.519
<v Speaker 4>or something like that. Crowley, being someone who was very

632
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:34.039
<v Speaker 4>interested in exemplifying the individual, has a system in which

633
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:36.719
<v Speaker 4>the individual comes first.

634
00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:39.039
<v Speaker 1>So the individual's.

635
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:43.159
<v Speaker 4>Will, their goals, what they're trying to accomplish in their lives,

636
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:48.039
<v Speaker 4>and on a spiritual, transcendent, gnostic, or even just mundane level,

637
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:53.239
<v Speaker 4>becomes the first and foremost consideration. That's why do what

638
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:57.440
<v Speaker 4>thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, right,

639
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:03.360
<v Speaker 4>It's that will of the end. Vidual is totalizing. Everything

640
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 4>else is subsumed within the will.

641
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:08.159
<v Speaker 5>Now, it may.

642
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:11.199
<v Speaker 4>Actually be the will of the individual to make sacrifices

643
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:16.480
<v Speaker 4>to subvert what they want to the good of a group,

644
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:20.760
<v Speaker 4>but they have to make that choice. It's not an

645
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:24.000
<v Speaker 4>assumed and it's not a system that says if you're

646
00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:29.880
<v Speaker 4>being selfish and putting the self first, then you're bad. Right.

647
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:35.199
<v Speaker 4>That's that's how it is in so many other Abrahamic traditions, Right,

648
00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:39.760
<v Speaker 4>individual has to subsume to the will of God or

649
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:45.559
<v Speaker 4>the group, or a least the opposite. And so that that's

650
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:47.920
<v Speaker 4>the basis of do what that will. Now, that doesn't

651
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:52.679
<v Speaker 4>mean do what you want, because doing what you want

652
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:58.800
<v Speaker 4>is a very kind of whimsical influenced in so many

653
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:03.239
<v Speaker 4>different ways. Right, You're sitting there and watching TV and

654
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:06.880
<v Speaker 4>an ad comes on for some type of food or

655
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.800
<v Speaker 4>swede or some activity or something like that, and you're like, oh,

656
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:11.639
<v Speaker 4>that looks good.

657
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I want to do that.

658
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.679
<v Speaker 4>I mean, that's what want levels are at will is

659
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:20.000
<v Speaker 4>a much more fundamental basis.

660
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:23.599
<v Speaker 1>It's the core of what you are and what you

661
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:25.199
<v Speaker 1>are living for.

662
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:33.719
<v Speaker 4>It's much more subtle, it's more philosophical, and it's not

663
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:38.119
<v Speaker 4>so obvious. And so the rest of the system is

664
00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:43.719
<v Speaker 4>to understand what your will is. So ceremonial magic is

665
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.679
<v Speaker 4>part of that process of discovering.

666
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:47.119
<v Speaker 5>What your will is.

667
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:51.599
<v Speaker 4>And part of that system is there is a being

668
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:55.199
<v Speaker 4>or entity of some kind named that he calls the

669
00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:58.840
<v Speaker 4>Holy Guardian Angel, and the nature of that angel is

670
00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:03.440
<v Speaker 4>frequently debate. Sometimes he talks about the angel as being

671
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:08.679
<v Speaker 4>a separate entity. Sometimes it's the Higher Self, sometimes it's both.

672
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:13.360
<v Speaker 5>So it's it's not clear to those outside.

673
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:18.639
<v Speaker 4>But supposedly those who have encountered their Holy Guardian Angel,

674
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:24.039
<v Speaker 4>that duality or that confusion is cleared up, and that

675
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:28.960
<v Speaker 4>being helps guide you as you come to understand what

676
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:29.760
<v Speaker 4>your will is.

677
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Over then that context, this would be something that would

678
00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:36.719
<v Speaker 2>be unique to each participant. They would they would get

679
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:39.800
<v Speaker 2>their own personal guardian Angel if they wanted to go

680
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:40.559
<v Speaker 2>through that ritual.

681
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:41.199
<v Speaker 3>Is that right?

682
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:42.840
<v Speaker 5>They don't get one.

683
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:43.599
<v Speaker 1>They have one.

684
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.559
<v Speaker 3>They have one, okay, But that doesn't contact.

685
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.079
<v Speaker 5>It right now.

686
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:52.679
<v Speaker 4>That could be contacting the higher self, like some portion

687
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.400
<v Speaker 4>of their consciousness that exists on a higher spiritual plane

688
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:04.360
<v Speaker 4>that could be contacting external entity. At one point, Curley

689
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:08.039
<v Speaker 4>identifies the being that dictated the Book of the Law

690
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:15.079
<v Speaker 4>to him as his Holy Guardian Angel. So is that

691
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:18.719
<v Speaker 4>being part of his mind and did he write it

692
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:22.559
<v Speaker 4>in a trance nature or is it a separate being

693
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:26.559
<v Speaker 4>that was in the room with him.

694
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:26.320
<v Speaker 1>Dictating it to him.

695
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.079
<v Speaker 4>These are some of the debates about the context in

696
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 4>which the book was received.

697
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:34.360
<v Speaker 3>Kind of what year was this that he sort of

698
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:36.000
<v Speaker 3>put this together and published.

699
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:41.079
<v Speaker 4>The book was received in nineteen oh four, Okay, but

700
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:43.599
<v Speaker 4>he didn't do anything with it for a few years,

701
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:46.559
<v Speaker 4>and in fact, he misplaced it for a while, and

702
00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:50.559
<v Speaker 4>later he found it around nineteen oh seven, and it

703
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:54.079
<v Speaker 4>was then that he realized it had greater spiritual import

704
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:58.800
<v Speaker 4>than just some kind of trance writing. And that's when

705
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:03.280
<v Speaker 4>he started building his systems around it. So the first

706
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:07.079
<v Speaker 4>one was the AA, and then later the OTO and

707
00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:08.679
<v Speaker 4>then the Gnosta Catholic Church.

708
00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, So ultimately, over the course of his life he

709
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.280
<v Speaker 2>had published several works he had tried to build up

710
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:23.719
<v Speaker 2>these groups. What ends up happening like, are all of

711
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:26.280
<v Speaker 2>these groups that he started? Are they all still extant

712
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:30.039
<v Speaker 2>or did some of them survive some not? Or how

713
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:31.360
<v Speaker 2>what's his legacy looking like?

714
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:31.679
<v Speaker 3>Now?

715
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:35.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think you could look at his legacy in

716
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:40.159
<v Speaker 4>a lot of different ways. His influence as a whole

717
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:45.880
<v Speaker 4>is pretty tremendous. He looked at for his rebelliousness. He's

718
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.280
<v Speaker 4>looked at for his literary skill in both his poetry

719
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:55.440
<v Speaker 4>and his writings of novels and short stories. He's looked

720
00:48:55.480 --> 00:49:03.519
<v Speaker 4>at as a kind of spiritual renegade or libertarian or

721
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:09.840
<v Speaker 4>hedonist by some so they see him as a model

722
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:15.639
<v Speaker 4>of rejecting the status quo and the system and instead

723
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:20.239
<v Speaker 4>making one's own way. Some look at him as a painter.

724
00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.000
<v Speaker 4>Most recently some paintings of his has been discovered, but

725
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:29.320
<v Speaker 4>he also during the period that he lived in Germany

726
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:33.119
<v Speaker 4>in Berlin, that he did an art show there. So

727
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:37.199
<v Speaker 4>there was a number of different ways that people look

728
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:42.880
<v Speaker 4>at him and become inspired by him. Definitely within the

729
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:51.880
<v Speaker 4>arts he's inspirational in film, dance, music, literature, visual arts.

730
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:56.880
<v Speaker 4>He's referenced quite frequently. But then also these groups, they

731
00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:02.480
<v Speaker 4>all exist today. Some exist in a multiplicity. So there's

732
00:50:02.599 --> 00:50:08.000
<v Speaker 4>lots of groups that call themselves the AA, there's a

733
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:11.280
<v Speaker 4>few groups that call themselves the OTO, and so there

734
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:17.280
<v Speaker 4>are conflicts within their community of participants who argue about

735
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:22.400
<v Speaker 4>the legitimacy of any one group or another. And then

736
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:27.599
<v Speaker 4>you also have the Noosta Catholic Church, which continues. There

737
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:31.360
<v Speaker 4>are those who participate in the NaSTA Catholic Church outside

738
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:36.400
<v Speaker 4>of the OTIO context, and since the late twentieth century,

739
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:41.440
<v Speaker 4>the Nosta Catholic Church within the OTO. Although they were independent,

740
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:45.159
<v Speaker 4>the memberships were overlapping in at one point they were

741
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:49.719
<v Speaker 4>combined and so there's a confluence between participation in the

742
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:57.880
<v Speaker 4>OTO in its initiatory degrees also necessitates even in nominally

743
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.320
<v Speaker 4>participation in the Nosta Catholic Church. And so that as

744
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:04.559
<v Speaker 4>you go through the initiations, you're actually being initiated in

745
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:08.360
<v Speaker 4>the OTO as well as receiving titles within the Gnosta

746
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:09.239
<v Speaker 4>Catholic Church.

747
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, So ultimately, uh, within his life when he passes away,

748
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:20.199
<v Speaker 2>what was his.

749
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:21.760
<v Speaker 3>Status at that point? Was he.

750
00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:26.159
<v Speaker 2>Like well revered? Was he doing okay financially or was

751
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:29.480
<v Speaker 2>he struggling? Or like you know, in this sort of

752
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:32.320
<v Speaker 2>classic not not talking about from a spiritual perspective, but

753
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:35.280
<v Speaker 2>just from like a how well was he being taken

754
00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.280
<v Speaker 2>care of at the end of his life? Was was

755
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:41.559
<v Speaker 2>was he successful? In that sort of capitalistic.

756
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:43.920
<v Speaker 3>Perspective where no, not at all? Okay?

757
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:49.880
<v Speaker 4>He he basically died living in a small rented room

758
00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:52.440
<v Speaker 4>of a person's house.

759
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:55.519
<v Speaker 1>In in England.

760
00:51:56.760 --> 00:51:58.159
<v Speaker 5>Relatively poor.

761
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:05.760
<v Speaker 4>He would get visitors, but his organizations were in shambles

762
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:10.639
<v Speaker 4>if they even existed at all. He was trying to

763
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:17.719
<v Speaker 4>find people to carry on his legacy. He was somewhat successful.

764
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:21.559
<v Speaker 4>He did have a successor in the OTO, a guy

765
00:52:21.639 --> 00:52:25.760
<v Speaker 4>named Carl Grimer, who continued the OTO in the AA.

766
00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:32.719
<v Speaker 4>Grimmer was much more interested in the AA, particularly as

767
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:36.440
<v Speaker 4>far as the EGC. He had some who participated and

768
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:41.320
<v Speaker 4>were interested in that, And then there were a smattering

769
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:44.679
<v Speaker 4>of people who became involved and interested in Crawley's work

770
00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:48.239
<v Speaker 4>towards the end of his life that carried on his

771
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:53.800
<v Speaker 4>work after he passed away in December of nineteen forty seven.

772
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:59.280
<v Speaker 3>And what did he die of? Or do we know?

773
00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:00.639
<v Speaker 5>I don't know.

774
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:03.280
<v Speaker 4>It's it is known off the top of my head.

775
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:07.519
<v Speaker 4>I don't remember. I think it was very mundane, just

776
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:09.159
<v Speaker 4>a normal kind of illness.

777
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:12.159
<v Speaker 1>I'd have to look it up, but something like pneumonia

778
00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:12.960
<v Speaker 1>or something like that.

779
00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:16.880
<v Speaker 4>I mean, one thing we should keep in mind is

780
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:21.519
<v Speaker 4>that he was a heroin addict for almost his whole life.

781
00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:27.559
<v Speaker 4>He did times try to stop, short periods of times.

782
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.679
<v Speaker 4>He was more successful than others, but he was taking

783
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:35.519
<v Speaker 4>heroin up to his death, and so a lot of

784
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:41.800
<v Speaker 4>his time, you know, was engaged in that kind of activity.

785
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:45.519
<v Speaker 2>Sure, sure it's complicated too, I think when there's so

786
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:48.800
<v Speaker 2>many of these rituals that involve opening up your mind

787
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:56.199
<v Speaker 2>with drugs, and I gotta suspect if you use heroin.

788
00:53:56.320 --> 00:53:59.320
<v Speaker 2>It's it doesn't take much to get you completely addicted.

789
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:01.920
<v Speaker 3>It's it's yeah.

790
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:05.199
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think another context that we have to keep

791
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:09.480
<v Speaker 4>in mind is at the time that he started using heroin,

792
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:15.320
<v Speaker 4>it was legal and it was actually seen as a

793
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:20.760
<v Speaker 4>viable medication for the treatment of asthma, and that was

794
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:25.840
<v Speaker 4>a condition that he had, and so heroin was prescribed.

795
00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:32.559
<v Speaker 4>It was only later when that ended and medical science saw,

796
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:36.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, the repercussions of people who became addicted to

797
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:41.280
<v Speaker 4>heroin and the fact that there were better solutions, that

798
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:44.159
<v Speaker 4>they stopped seeing it as.

799
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:46.239
<v Speaker 5>A proper treatment. But by then it.

800
00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:50.000
<v Speaker 4>Was the damage was already done and who knows how

801
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:50.800
<v Speaker 4>many other people.

802
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:54.119
<v Speaker 5>And cocaine was also prescribed.

803
00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:57.480
<v Speaker 4>For illness, and so the drugs that we think are

804
00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:04.840
<v Speaker 4>illegal today and bad in some context or not, that's

805
00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:10.679
<v Speaker 4>a relatively recent phenomenon, right, right, And the impact of

806
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:16.280
<v Speaker 4>those drugs was not well known until you know, well

807
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:17.480
<v Speaker 4>into the twentieth century.

808
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:21.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's important to mind listeners that heroin, heroin was

809
00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:21.679
<v Speaker 2>a brand name.

810
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:25.800
<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's yeah, it was, it was. Yeah. I've

811
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:26.599
<v Speaker 3>seen a lot of the.

812
00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Packaging for heroin and cocaine being used in Friday things,

813
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:36.039
<v Speaker 2>including Coca Cola. The coca part of Coca Cola used

814
00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:38.679
<v Speaker 2>to be from the Coca right right.

815
00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:40.199
<v Speaker 4>I mean you could go to your farming as system

816
00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:44.239
<v Speaker 4>and pick up cocaine pills like nothing.

817
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:45.119
<v Speaker 5>I mean they were cheap.

818
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, amazing.

819
00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:52.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, John, I wow, I feel like we could just

820
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.079
<v Speaker 2>keep talking about this, but I I probably do need

821
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:59.599
<v Speaker 2>to wind down here. There is uh this is this

822
00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:02.280
<v Speaker 2>will seem like an unsecuoror, but for regular listeners, this

823
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:05.159
<v Speaker 2>is a thing I try to ask people who come

824
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:05.679
<v Speaker 2>on the show.

825
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:09.719
<v Speaker 3>This one common closing question. Are you ready?

826
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:10.760
<v Speaker 5>M hmm?

827
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:12.079
<v Speaker 3>What's your favorite monster?

828
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:15.480
<v Speaker 5>The Creature from the Black Lagoon?

829
00:56:15.559 --> 00:56:16.519
<v Speaker 3>Is it really awesome?

830
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:18.599
<v Speaker 5>Yeah? Yeah, I used to.

831
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.440
<v Speaker 4>My father was in the military, and I grew up

832
00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:26.280
<v Speaker 4>for a period of time and during the elementary years

833
00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:29.559
<v Speaker 4>in Honolulu, and they used to have a creature double

834
00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:32.599
<v Speaker 4>feature on the weekends and they would do a Godzilla

835
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:36.400
<v Speaker 4>film and some other old, you know, horror film, and

836
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:38.760
<v Speaker 4>I just absolutely.

837
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Loved watching the Creature from the Black Lagoon.

838
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.760
<v Speaker 3>Have you managed to go see The Shape of Water?

839
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:46.239
<v Speaker 5>No?

840
00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:46.679
<v Speaker 1>Not yet.

841
00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:48.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh, you should totally go see that.

842
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:51.679
<v Speaker 2>I think you'll get a real kick out of it.

843
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:55.400
<v Speaker 2>It's it's not directly from that tradition, but it certainly

844
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:59.639
<v Speaker 2>has been heavily impacted. Girmo del Toro does a fantastic size.

845
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:01.639
<v Speaker 2>It's a great story, but it's one of the most

846
00:57:01.639 --> 00:57:04.760
<v Speaker 2>beautiful films I've ever seen. But a great gill Man,

847
00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:07.280
<v Speaker 2>so it's really really fun. I think he would really

848
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:09.000
<v Speaker 2>get a kick out of it. So check it out

849
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:09.679
<v Speaker 2>if you get a chance.

850
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:11.440
<v Speaker 1>We'll do We'll do.

851
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:12.760
<v Speaker 3>This is good.

852
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:15.360
<v Speaker 4>Thank you for having me on the show, and I

853
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:17.760
<v Speaker 4>appreciate everybody's time in listening.

854
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:20.519
<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate you taking the time. This is such

855
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:23.199
<v Speaker 2>a complicated topic which I think people will have a

856
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:27.000
<v Speaker 2>pretty good handle on now. And obviously I'll have to

857
00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:30.599
<v Speaker 2>edit this down just a little bit, but this is

858
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.960
<v Speaker 2>really good material. And thank you so much for helping

859
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:39.039
<v Speaker 2>us contextualize the role of Crowley within this larger esoterica,

860
00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:42.960
<v Speaker 2>because as it fits in with this magical research stuff,

861
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it's really important. And I don't think he's

862
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:50.159
<v Speaker 2>well understood. He's much more commonly a pop culture sort

863
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:54.639
<v Speaker 2>of reference point than a better understood sort of figure

864
00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:57.920
<v Speaker 2>within Western history, you know, So I really I think

865
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:00.679
<v Speaker 2>you're going to help people sort of clear some mystery up.

866
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:01.440
<v Speaker 3>I appreciate it.

867
00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:03.239
<v Speaker 5>I'm glad to do so.

868
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me on moorns Trutor.

869
00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:10.960
<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

870
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:13.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm Blake Smith, and today you heard an interview with

871
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:17.440
<v Speaker 2>John L. Crow about the life of Alistair Crowley. I

872
00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:19.360
<v Speaker 2>hope you'll check out the links in the show notes

873
00:58:19.400 --> 00:58:21.559
<v Speaker 2>at MonsterTalk dot org, where there's a lot of information

874
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:23.840
<v Speaker 2>if you'd like to dig deeper into Crawley's strange but

875
00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:28.280
<v Speaker 2>interesting life. He somehow got a reputation for outsized evil

876
00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:31.840
<v Speaker 2>and wickedness. Yet in a century that saw mass human eradication,

877
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:36.639
<v Speaker 2>carpet bombing, unlawful medical experiments, global wars, and nuclear bombs,

878
00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:41.800
<v Speaker 2>somehow his life by comparison seems almost quaint. But he

879
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:43.599
<v Speaker 2>sure seems to have messed up a lot of lives,

880
00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:47.320
<v Speaker 2>including his own. Often we have higher aspirations than our

881
00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:50.519
<v Speaker 2>ability or fortunes allow us to execute. I certainly see

882
00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the appeal of a philosophy that talks about will. According

883
00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:56.880
<v Speaker 2>to many interpretations, when Crowley said do what thou wilt,

884
00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:00.480
<v Speaker 2>he was talking about living for one's true purpose, following

885
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:03.840
<v Speaker 2>your will with purpose, not doing whatever pops in your head,

886
00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:08.480
<v Speaker 2>dividing your true purpose. But despite the heroic stories we

887
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:10.920
<v Speaker 2>hear about loners with incredible force of will and how

888
00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:14.480
<v Speaker 2>they accomplish amazing things, it always seems to me that

889
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:16.840
<v Speaker 2>when you dig a little deeper, more has actually been

890
00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:19.760
<v Speaker 2>accomplished by the cooperation of people who share a vision

891
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:23.519
<v Speaker 2>than by individuals who seek credit and accolades. But this

892
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:26.000
<v Speaker 2>has been a show about Alistair Crowley, not his teachings.

893
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:27.480
<v Speaker 2>There are some links in the show notes if you

894
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.119
<v Speaker 2>want to learn more about that. Monster Talk is an

895
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:33.599
<v Speaker 2>official podcast of Skeptic Magazine, but the opinions expressed on

896
00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:35.800
<v Speaker 2>this show are those of myself and my guests and

897
00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:38.559
<v Speaker 2>do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic Magazine or

898
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:41.719
<v Speaker 2>the Skeptic society. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of

899
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:44.559
<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk. Each episode we strive to bring you the

900
00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:47.320
<v Speaker 2>best in monster related content, with a focus on bringing

901
00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:51.480
<v Speaker 2>scientific skepticism into the conversation. If you enjoy Monster Talk,

902
00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:54.119
<v Speaker 2>we now have a variety of ways to support the show,

903
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:57.840
<v Speaker 2>all with convenient links at monster talk dot org forwarge

904
00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:03.320
<v Speaker 2>slash support. That's Monster dot org forge slash support. There,

905
01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:05.400
<v Speaker 2>we have links to our Patreon pages, as well as

906
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<v Speaker 2>a donation button. A great way to support the show

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<v Speaker 2>love usbooks very much, so don't feel compelled to buy

910
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<v Speaker 2>new ones, and we love Kindle, and we can share

911
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<v Speaker 2>our digital library with each other. Finally, without spending any

912
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913
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<v Speaker 2>positive review at iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

914
01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Positive reviews help keep us visible in iTunes, which is

915
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<v Speaker 2>a great way to help us find new listeners, and

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<v Speaker 2>please share our show on your favorite social media platforms.

917
01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:42.599
<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk theme music's by Peach Stealing Monkeys. As always,

918
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:44.719
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for listening.

919
01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:29.039
<v Speaker 1>Want to stay abreast of the latest from Skeptic magazine

920
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:30.639
<v Speaker 1>and the Skeptic Society.

921
01:01:31.119 --> 01:01:34.880
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