WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:03.000 Lauren, what's going on? 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:08.279 You know, that's always a challenging question, right to answer, 3 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:10.679 So maybe offlip it around. What's going on with you? 4 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:17.839 Well, you know, we're just it's early October in the 5 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:22.239 northwest US, So I'm getting ready for my first winter 6 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:27.239 in fifteen years, because I've been living down in Arizona 7 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.839 for fifteen years, and so now I'm like, oh wow, 8 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.119 there's this winter stuff I gotta do, and I'm trying. 9 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:34.600 To figure it out. 10 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:39.240 Hopefully before you know, it becomes a limiting factor in 11 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:43.240 my personal life choices. 12 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:47.799 It's a whole set of lifestyle that you need to 13 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:49.240 be able to adapt to it. Like, it's not just 14 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:51.640 you have like one set of clothes that you can wear. 15 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:52.000 All the time. 16 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:55.359 You then need like fall clothes and spring clothes and 17 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.280 winter clothes. Actually four sets of like your life that 18 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:03.960 men adapt prepared. But actually, yesterday it was so warm 19 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.959 here that I regretted not wearing shorts. Yes, you know, 20 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:10.000 that's October seventh in Switzerland. 21 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:12.040 Yeah, that seems a bit unusual. 22 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.439 Oh yeah, for sure. I mean it was got really 23 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.400 cold here already, but it was sort of this anomaly day. 24 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:23.599 Yeah, it's funny you mentioned the different clothes for each season. 25 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:27.799 Just the other day, my wife commented, She's like, I 26 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:31.840 never ever thought I would see you own so much flannel. 27 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:35.799 I was like, wait, is that a good thing or 28 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:36.439 a bad thing? 29 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.120 I mean, is it like red plaid like with blue lines, 30 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:41.760 lumberjack flannel. 31 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:44.239 Or oh, you know it with the bib overalls underneath. 32 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:46.159 I'm all in, man, I'm all in. 33 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.760 I mean, you got to pick your lifestyle here, and 34 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.439 you know, maybe that's I sort of want to have 35 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.000 us try something a little bit different for today's podcast. 36 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.280 So I was I took longer than I probably should 37 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:03.599 have looking at your LinkedIn profile recently, and I did 38 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:07.439 notice that you've actually had quite a long career. 39 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:13.599 It has been this year. It has been thirty years 40 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:16.360 that I've been in the tech industry. 41 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:19.439 I feel like if we had some sound effects, those 42 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:20.680 would be going off right. 43 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.960 Now, right, because that's I don't know if many people 44 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:28.080 who have been at it this long. I think it's 45 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:29.879 a small group of people. 46 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.840 And that's to say that everyone should retire before they 47 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:35.039 get to thirty years of experience. 48 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:43.479 No, absolutely not. I think I think there's a proven 49 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.479 path to doing this, but a lot of people don't 50 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:49.680 know what it is, and so that's kind of what 51 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:53.120 we're going to talk about today. You know. I think 52 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.199 first thing, because this conversation actually came up with someone 53 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.960 I was talking with the other day. They're getting started 54 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.840 in their tech career, and they said, I just want 55 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.159 somebody to be honest with me, like what is it 56 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:12.159 really like? And I said, not going to bullshit you. 57 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:17.759 It's fucking hard. Like put aside, there's like great moments 58 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.560 that keep you going. But it is hard work. But 59 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.479 we have to like qualify hard work. Yes, it's hard work, 60 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:30.800 but so is you know, laying asphalt on the highway 61 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:33.400 in the desert in the middle of summer. Those are 62 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:35.960 both hard work. They're just different types of hard work. 63 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:41.039 So you kind of have to keep that in perspective. 64 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:46.000 I think during the hard years over a thirty year career. 65 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:49.199 You know, I didn't think I would bring this up, actually, 66 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:53.879 but I thought it was sort of a joke initially 67 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:57.319 when I had started that people burn out at working 68 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.719 knowledge work, which is fundamentally what we're doing. As you mentioned, 69 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.800 it's somehow similar but still very different than the physical 70 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:06.479 work you would put in to perform some sort of 71 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:10.199 manual labor. It's yeah, for sure, is not a joke. 72 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:12.680 And I used to think, oh, yeah, you know, I'm 73 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:16.040 used to doing hard work at the high school, university level, 74 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:19.079 whatever I invested my time in. It's not easy. I 75 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.920 spent a lot of time studying, preparing for tests, et cetera. 76 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.920 And I always like, I don't want to do that anymore. 77 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:28.279 So I decided not to go to graduate school and 78 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:32.360 try to actually start working. And yeah, I'm with you 79 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:36.120 that I think just calling it hard work doesn't necessarily 80 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:40.120 really clarify what you have to really put in to 81 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.120 make even a short career. 82 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.720 Yeah for sure. And I think that highlights So I've 83 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:52.439 picked out like four common paths for tech careers, and 84 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:57.439 so highlight those real quick. The first one is you 85 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.720 start your tech career, you do it for few years, 86 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:07.160 and then you kind of acknowledge it that point the 87 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.720 level of effort that it's required to keep going at this, 88 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.000 and so you move to something like a pre sales 89 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:19.240 engineering or a solutions engineer type role where it's still technical, 90 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:24.959 but you just kind of you know, you're familiar with 91 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.040 the concepts and you have the fundamentals, but you're not 92 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:33.319 required to you know, learn the you know, all the 93 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:37.319 different subcommands of operating a Kubernetes cluster and use those 94 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:39.560 on a daily basis. Right, So it's technical, but it's 95 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:40.920 less technical. 96 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.279 Inspect I mean, it's sort of like the one where 97 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.759 you take the skills that you've learned over the beginning 98 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.839 part of your career from a theoretical standpoint or you know, 99 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:51.839 trying to figure out your way, and you're actually putting 100 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:55.000 them into practice by focusing on that part of the 101 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.040 delivery and less on learning new things. 102 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.560 Yeah, for sure, Like you those fundamentals, like you know, 103 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:09.240 you know, you know basic things, well maybe basics not 104 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.399 the right word, but do you know things like you know, 105 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.680 don't expose your database server with a public IP address. 106 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.600 And so you use those lessons to help other people 107 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.279 engineer good solutions, but you're not actually responsible for getting 108 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:25.360 your hands on the keyboard and implementing them. 109 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:29.240 You have some tricks in your tool bag and mantras 110 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.839 that you can repeat at maybe the right moment, and 111 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:35.759 you're now someone that can actually share that advice after 112 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:37.160 you know, I think like maybe even a. 113 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:38.879 Five year mark for sure. 114 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:39.759 Yeah. 115 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.839 Yeah, so that's one. Yeah, the next one that I 116 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:49.800 commonly see is people moving from a technical role into 117 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.040 a management role. And I think this one we just 118 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.240 see it in other industries, you know, like if you 119 00:06:56.279 --> 00:07:00.160 start out as a bank teller, then you become like 120 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:04.720 the manager of the local bank branch, and then you know, 121 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:06.839 you work your way up through a career in management, 122 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:12.240 and that's like the defined career path for every other industry, 123 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.480 and so people just naturally apply to ours. The one 124 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:20.439 of the things that I learned from that, though, is 125 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:24.079 that being a manager is a completely different career path. 126 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:27.639 It has very little to do with your technical skills, 127 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:31.800 because to be a good manager, you need people's skills. 128 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.439 You need to understand what motivates your people and when 129 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.879 they're struggling, and how to get them to turn it around, 130 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:39.959 and how to communicate with them. You know, not some 131 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:44.360 people respond to written communication, some respond to verbal communication, 132 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.040 and you have to dissect and figure that out for 133 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.800 each one of your employees, remember it for that employee, 134 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:53.959 and then frame your conversations with them using that. 135 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:59.519 I feel like that bears repeating realistically, because it's sort 136 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:01.720 of the area where I feel like in my career 137 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:03.920 people kept on saying, oh, you need to have soft 138 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.759 skills to make this happen and not really explain it 139 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.839 in a way that resonated with an engineer or engineers 140 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:14.240 I feel like aren't really explained to what that difference 141 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:16.199 in role is. And I think you know you've done 142 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.600 a good job hashing over that. It is quite the 143 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.600 challenge and it for sure is nowhere close to the same. 144 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.000 I think for me, the language that I have jumped 145 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:29.199 on in the past that has been helpful is you 146 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:34.799 have more resources at your control to help deliver something 147 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:37.360 of much greater scale, Like you're not going to build 148 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.840 a skyscraper by yourself. You know you can hire as 149 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:42.200 many people as you want to help you do that. 150 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:45.720 What exactly do you do to make that happen? And 151 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:47.879 in knowledge work, I feel like it's very difficult to 152 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:51.200 wrap your head around what extra people will help with 153 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.759 It was a I'm sure it's happened to It's happened 154 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:55.919 to me, I'm sure it's happened to you. In your career, 155 00:08:55.960 --> 00:08:58.480 you can ever get asked like, hey, will like, we're 156 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.159 not going at this as fast, says we want to like, 157 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:02.840 could you use some extra people? 158 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:06.759 Right? Yeah? Like And for me, most of the time, 159 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:11.200 the answer is no, because then I've got to stop 160 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.399 progress on it to get them into a productive state. 161 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.120 Yeah, I mean, and also like splitting the work and 162 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.000 just breaking out like you know I have in my 163 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.120 head it's organized in some way, and so moving into 164 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:24.159 the management position is all about doing that, you know, 165 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.559 like no hands on really, like how do I organize 166 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.080 people to automatically achieve what I want? Okay, yeah, I 167 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:30.519 got it. 168 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:34.759 Yeah. One of the things that helped me make that 169 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:38.600 concrete in my head because I think the word soft 170 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:42.000 skills is the wrong word. I think that's misleading in it. 171 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:49.000 But for about five years I was a CrossFit coach 172 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:53.320 out outside of outside of work, and to me, that 173 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.519 taught me more about communication than anything I've ever done 174 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:59.960 in my life, because, yeah, you're in this scenario where 175 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:05.759 you have people of varying skills trying to complete strenuous 176 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.559 work for their own personal benefits. But at the same time, 177 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.720 if they do it wrong, they could injure themselves and 178 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:17.480 that's the worst case scenario. But then you add in 179 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:19.799 peer pressure on top of that because they may be 180 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:23.480 standing next to someone doing the exact same movement with 181 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:27.279 twice as much weight. So now they're feeling less confident 182 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:30.559 because of that. And then let's up the pressure one 183 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.440 more time and let's put a running clock on there. 184 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.679 So now we're going to judge you based on the 185 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.480 time it takes you to complete this work. And so 186 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:41.480 as a coach, you're looking out across this group of 187 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:45.799 people and you see someone making a mistake. So you've 188 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:48.639 got to make it across the gym to this person. 189 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.240 You've got to break their mental thought process because they're 190 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.200 just focused on that clock. You've got to interrupt that cycle, 191 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:58.559 get their attention, and then figure out how to communicate 192 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:02.200 to them enough so that they don't injure themselves. So 193 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.480 you're like, does this person respond to verbal cues? Do 194 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:09.440 they respond to show and tell? Do they respond to 195 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.240 feel where I can like touch the middle of their 196 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:14.639 back and say don't don't bend this. If they do 197 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:17.200 respond to feel and it's a person of the opposite sex, 198 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:19.759 are they going to assume that I'm trying to hit 199 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.919 on them and take it the wrong way? And You've 200 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.080 got to process all of this stuff in a matter 201 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.080 of seconds to prevent them from getting injured. And to me, 202 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.120 that taught me a lot about soft skills and how 203 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:34.519 to communicate, and I think those directly translate into a 204 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:35.919 management career path. 205 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:40.799 Yeah, no, I totally get that. I keep hearing that 206 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:44.320 someone has an example that's somehow sport related. I know, 207 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.960 a cross fit. I feel like is in a weird 208 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:51.679 area here, right, it's not definitely, I mean it is 209 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:53.919 sort of for you. I mean you're thinking of as 210 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.080 a coach, like this is my group, this is my team. 211 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:58.879 I need to get them to the finish line and 212 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:02.320 helping them however that happens. And I was just starting 213 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:06.080 to like develop these nightmare scenario where there's like a 214 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:09.480 clock ticking down as a software developer and someone's wanting 215 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.200 me to come and pat me on the back and say, hey, 216 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:13.440 you know, you know, do this a little bit differently. 217 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.519 But the team thing keeps coming up for me a 218 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.799 lot like I feel like I didn't. I wasn't exposed 219 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.879 to sports teams enough as a in a leadership capacity 220 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.960 or understanding how to work with leaders in that. You know, 221 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:30.919 it's still very especially where I came from my you know, 222 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:36.440 my culture American initially, and so it definitely task oriented, 223 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.440 you know, head down, focus on whatever the thing is 224 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:39.919 that you need to do it relevant to the sport, 225 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:42.200 even if there are other players that are on your 226 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.559 team that are happening at the same moment. But over 227 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.720 my career, having focused on that a lot, I definitely 228 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.639 got a better understanding of what it means to make 229 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.039 a team and to lead that team in knowledge based work. 230 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.480 Yeah, for sure, sure I can relate to that. I 231 00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:59.879 grew up in Texas in the seventies and eighties, so 232 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.279 you either played football, basketball, or baseball, preferably all three, 233 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.679 and I was one of those and still am one 234 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:13.320 of those uncoordinated people where if you want pure hilarity, 235 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:17.519 just throw me a ball and expect me to catch it. 236 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:22.080 But anyway, right now, I'm over it now. I just 237 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.399 like own it now, Like, yeah, that's never gonna happen. 238 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:25.240 I'm fine with that. 239 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.840 Okay, So we got the management position future, you know, yeah, 240 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.759 change your role long term, right right, And. 241 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:35.320 I think it's important to acknowledgement, acknowledge that you are 242 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:38.159 specifically changing your expertise. 243 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:42.159 It's interesting because there actually has been this mancho like 244 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:45.480 don't put engineers in like, don't force engineers into management position, 245 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.600 And that's like one side of the spectrum and there's 246 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.799 side of the spectrum is oh, yes, management positions come 247 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:53.600 after uh, you know, being an individual contributor. So right, 248 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:55.720 I hope there's like some sort of magic middle ground 249 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:58.080 here where like there is some portion of the population 250 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.279 who this is this is probably the path that you 251 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:00.799 belong on. 252 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.279 Yeah, for sure. I think the other common path that 253 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:10.440 I've seen, and I think the motivating factor behind all 254 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:14.039 of these is like you mentioned earlier, you know, the 255 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:18.519 continuous education thing. You know, tech is continuously changing, You're 256 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.759 always behind. And so the third one that I've seen 257 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:27.039 people pursue is just finding a nice comfy hole to 258 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:32.960 hide in. So you get your job and then you 259 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.799 figure out how this legacy component works and you just 260 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.360 become the expert in that, and now you're kind of 261 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.799 like indispensable because no one else wants to touch this thing, 262 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.159 but it's critical to the business operations, and so you 263 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.720 can just kind of carve out your defined work and 264 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.399 you're just going to ride that out to retirement. And 265 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.840 I'm not saying and I'm not like saying that is 266 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.159 a bad thing at all. This is a valid option. 267 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.919 You know. Yeah, do you think there's like some secret 268 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:07.600 that actually making that career happen like something that you 269 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.799 should go and do to if that, if that feels 270 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:12.679 more comfortable to you, because I mean, I know there's 271 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.559 people out there that are like, I don't want to 272 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:16.679 be a manager and I don't want to go into 273 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.399 sales or even working with other teams and having to 274 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:21.600 communicate across them as a. 275 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:24.399 Challenge for me. Yeah, for sure, learn coboll. 276 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:31.639 Yeah, I mean, hands on, hard technical work is not 277 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.799 the norm, even like in my career, I have very 278 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:37.919 rarely seen those people. I mean, I think it's less 279 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:42.440 and less the case over time, with new strategies having 280 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.399 been discovered and then replicated across companies and then turned 281 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:50.120 into tools that can be utilized the complicated subsystem person 282 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.639 who's that foremost expert in that thing. Number of roles 283 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:56.960 I feel like has been decreasing over time. 284 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:00.679 Yeah for sure, for sure. And I think that highlights 285 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:05.480 the common denominator to all three of those strategies that 286 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:11.720 causes people frustration in their career because all three of 287 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:16.639 them force you out of that continuous education mode and 288 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.440 more than likely at some point that job is going 289 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.840 to end. So now you're re entering the workforce, but 290 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.919 you've let your technical skills lapse, and so now you're 291 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:33.440 not interviewing at the level that you previously had because 292 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:35.639 you don't have up to date tech skills. 293 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.600 Yeah. I mean those three are either I changed my role, 294 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.080 I did something with my skills. I'm not focusing on 295 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.440 learning over and over again. So there must be other 296 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:48.399 career paths out there that don't focus on switching out 297 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.120 but maybe focus on learning. 298 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.559 Yeah, which is kind of the path that I've taken 299 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.919 over the last thirty years, just kind of having the mantra. 300 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.279 And it hasn't been this mind from the beginning. It's 301 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.960 evolved over time, but it's just waking up and when 302 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:09.759 I get out of bed in the morning acknowledging I'm 303 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:13.960 the dumbest fucker in tech right now because since I 304 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:18.759 quit work yesterday afternoon and got up this morning, technology 305 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.799 has progressed, but here I was sleeping in bed. So 306 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.720 now my job for today is to deliver value from 307 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.880 my employer, do the thing that they're paying me to do, 308 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.839 and level up my skills so that I'm going to 309 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:36.400 be valuable to them tomorrow. And the focus is not 310 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.559 so much on the employer of oh I've got to 311 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.240 be a good employee so that they put a gold 312 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.720 star on my forehead or whatever. The goal to all 313 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.440 of this is, I've got to provide for my family. 314 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.039 You know. My job is to make sure that everyone 315 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.440 in my family has a roof over the head, food 316 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.839 on the table, and money to meet their needs. And 317 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.680 this is the path that I've chosen to do that. 318 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.920 And so continuous education is just one of two primary 319 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.880 tools I use to do that. The first tool is 320 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.319 active employment employment, and then the second tool is a 321 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:16.519 continuous education so that I can have active employment tomorrow. 322 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.480 So there was a previous episode where I grilled you 323 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:24.200 on mastermind groups and people who can sort of challenge 324 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:29.079 you on as I quote your bullshit. I feel like, 325 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.960 you know, that's a source of learning at least feedback 326 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.240 from the outside. But like, how have you managed to 327 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.839 actually hold in new information and kept growing over the 328 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.960 last thirty years. Was it like a conscious effort of like, 329 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.200 I need to learn something this week, this is the 330 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.480 thing I'm learning. Was it you were involved in some 331 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.720 companies that maybe made it easier like any Was there 332 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:52.960 a concerted effort? Was it just who you are as 333 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:53.440 a person? 334 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.279 Probably a combination of all those I think one of 335 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:01.799 the driving factors has has been most of my career 336 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:05.920 has been building early stage tech startups, you know, and 337 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.680 so all the early stage tech startups, you're not limited 338 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:17.599 by previous technical decisions, and so software engineers tend to 339 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.599 be aware of like, oh, hey, there's this new thing 340 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:25.960 called Heroku or this new thing called Versell, and so 341 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.039 then they use that and I'm like, ah, damn, all right, 342 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.119 I got to learn that. And then you start to 343 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.759 if the company is successful, you start to hit the 344 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.400 limits of that. So now it's like, Okay, we're going 345 00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:42.359 to have to get off of this. What are they doing? 346 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.440 Why is that the limiting factor? And what can I 347 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.400 build that will work better than that which leads you 348 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:53.640 into you know, cloud computing or Kubernetes or something like that. 349 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:58.480 So it was kind of like just taking a step 350 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.839 back to read the lands gate and figure out where 351 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:04.279 we're going and what was going to be the limiting 352 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.400 factor in that path. You know. 353 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.559 That's a really interesting perspective because I feel like I 354 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.519 started my career on the opposite side, and when I 355 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.079 was working at one of these companies, the thought I 356 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.480 kept having to myself is I feel like I'm learning 357 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:19.160 dead frameworks, like things that are not going to afford 358 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.039 my career in any way. And it wasn't like, let 359 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.920 me force this company to introduce something that they definitely 360 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.640 don't need, like Kubernetes, in order to put it on 361 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:28.839 my resume. It was let me find other companies that 362 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.680 are doing something in a field that I care about 363 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.920 that I could push forward. And so like switching your 364 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.240 career every couple of years, I mean, I feel like 365 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.279 has been this recent mantra of how people get promoted. 366 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.759 But if you look at the reason why, I feel 367 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.640 like the continuous learning is a good justification of that. 368 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:50.079 Yeah, I would agree with that, And I would have 369 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:54.880 to say I probably have followed that almost subconsciously. You know, 370 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.480 in thirty years, I've never been with the same employer 371 00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:58.799 for more than three years. 372 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:01.680 You know, this is going to be like recorded, and 373 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:04.640 then people may hear that and how many years are 374 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.079 you coming up on your current. 375 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.359 Joone will I've got eleven months to go there. 376 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.920 I think there's a wisdom there that. And I ask 377 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.240 people like, how long like you plan on working at 378 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.000 this company until you retire? And the answer is almost 379 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.880 always no, And I'm like, okay, great, and right now 380 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:26.640 you're like the way you're acting or the path that 381 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.799 you're taking or what you're focusing on is aligned with 382 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:32.200 I'm going to work there forever. So like how many 383 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:34.079 years out you know, you start playing this game of 384 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.400 like where is your career going? When is that point 385 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:37.920 in which you know which you think you will no 386 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.039 longer work at that company? And I'm not asking you to, 387 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.119 you know, answer this for that point, but I think 388 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:45.279 the interesting thing is you mentioned you focus in the 389 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.680 startup world where there is a rapid turnover or introduction 390 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:50.880 of new tools, and things change when you get to 391 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.440 the scale phase and be like, Okay, our product now works, 392 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.039 we need to make some significant changes there or the 393 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.720 tools we're using run out. Have you ever heard of 394 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:05.759 the cont the pioneer, settler and town planner. No, So 395 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.720 it's sort of this mentality that someone takes on and 396 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:12.960 not that you are only one of these. There is 397 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.680 this idea of you're doing some green field work, you 398 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:21.119 are a pioneer in the wild West in a previously 399 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:24.559 mapped out region of technology or whatever you're doing, and 400 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.720 then there's this stage in the middle, which is the settler. 401 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:29.920