WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:02.640 Most of us. We walk around and we imagine that 2 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:05.200 the physical environment that we're in has sort of always 3 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.360 been here. It's just sort of an a Priori kind 4 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.800 of idea. Suburbs are super new. Really, suburbs didn't come 5 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.519 into fruition until after World War Two, and they were 6 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.440 built very much by design Federal Highway Act, Mortgage Intratroduction 7 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.480 GI Bill, and then all sorts of other things that 8 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.679 racialized them, like redlining. I mean, I am not saying 9 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.480 all suburbs are racist, and we please stipulate that. All 10 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:30.160 I'm saying is that the origins of the suburban story 11 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:34.679 were very much about a certain white middle class that 12 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:39.359 government was designing for and our economic system was designing for. 13 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:41.600 In fact, I think a lot of the anger the 14 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:47.079 again in Maga is about the fact that government. It 15 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:52.640 wasn't that people weren't on government welfare. They were, It's 16 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.240 just that that welfare served a certain group of people, 17 00:00:56.240 --> 00:01:03.719 and there is a desire to go back to that hell. 18 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:05.799 Everybody, welcome to this anthe life as always with your 19 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:07.879 host Edam Gambo. Really excited to be here with you today, 20 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:09.840 and we're diving into a topic that I think is 21 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:13.680 both super important and really really interesting for how we 22 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:15.439 might think about what we can do with the future. 23 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:17.560 And this is of course around like the lived and 24 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:20.480 built environment and basically how the spaces that we build 25 00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:22.519 will shape what kind of society that we can be 26 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:24.879 here or it could be right. And so I'm really 27 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.640 thrilled to be joined today by Vishon Chakrabarti, who's the 28 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:31.200 founder of the Practice for Architecture and Urbanism or Powell. 29 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:33.359 As well as the author of a really awesome new. 30 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:35.439 Book call The Architecture of Robanity, Designing for Culture and 31 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:38.079 Nature and Joy. And it's interesting because, like a lot 32 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:40.840 of the conversations that we see happening online and around 33 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.079 folks like about cities like get stuck between these two 34 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:45.680 technical areas. One is kind of on the idea of 35 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:46.959 like do we have the right metrics and the right 36 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:49.640 kind of carbon capture things that we're thinking about and 37 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:51.840 other things about that cities are either just like wastelands 38 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:54.519 or like the problem for climate change because there's so 39 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:56.480 many people, there's a lot of pollution, all these elements 40 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.599 kind of coming together, but you approach this problem differently. 41 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:01.599 And I think that it's important right that we can 42 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:03.959 actually think about design in a thoughtful way that can 43 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.079 kind of help usall some of these biggest challenges that 44 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:08.919 we have coming, you know, from things like social isolation, 45 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.560 climate change to I think importantly helping create more joyful 46 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:14.560 in connected communities. So as an apologist that I like 47 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:15.560 this idea and this approach. 48 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:18.599 So let's let's kind of talk about that. 49 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:20.520 Like, the one of the things that really caught my 50 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.080 attention early on in your work is this idea of 51 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:25.280 like cities as an area that we can create positive 52 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:28.439 social friction. And I love this idea because oftentimes we 53 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:30.919 think about that friction feels like a bad word or 54 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.520 something that we don't want. But then you know, on 55 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:35.960 the other side, I'm like a frictionless experience might be 56 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:37.759 a little bit too slippery, and we might think about 57 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:41.400 that in terms of Amazon's you know cart from product 58 00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:43.199 to buying is a little bit too frictionless that I 59 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:45.599 end to buy too many things sometimes. So somewhere in 60 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:47.800 between ite and the right kind of friction, especially social, 61 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.280 seems important. So what is this this kind of concept. 62 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:52.120 I think it's a really important kind of anchoring piece 63 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.400 for us to think about. What is it that cities 64 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:56.080 can do for us in this kind of space of 65 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:57.800 creating this positive social friction. 66 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.439 Yeah, well, thanks for having me out, and it's great 67 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:04.639 to be here. So the book is about, you know, 68 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.520 what design and the built environment have to do with 69 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:11.560 I think the pressing challenges of our time, and to me, 70 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:14.919 the ones that are the most pressing are climate change 71 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.639 and social and political division. Obviously, we just came out 72 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:26.319 of a very very tough election, very divided country, and 73 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:30.520 so this idea of social frictions I think really timely 74 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:35.199 and poignant to talk about, because you know, a frictionless 75 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:37.960 world is sort of one where everyone agrees with you, right, 76 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.479 And so a lot of social media algorithms are out 77 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:44.120 there putting us in our silos with other people who 78 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.000 agree with us, and so we experienced sort of less 79 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:50.080 and less friction until like the algorithm decides to like 80 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:52.159 tit one of us against the other in some like 81 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:58.840 anger filled you know, social media rage. And so I 82 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:03.400 think collective physical environments. And I'm going to use that 83 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:07.120 kind of wonky terms with the cities because the book 84 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:11.439 is really trying to define urbanity very expansively, not just 85 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:16.800 as big cities, but even small villages, even rural main streets. Right, 86 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:21.240 that what the space of collective environments do is they 87 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.399 bring us together face to face, and we then have 88 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.480 to you know, confront people who look different than us, 89 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:33.319 pray differently differently than us, vote differently than us, and 90 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:37.639 you know, to me, the distinction between community and urbanity 91 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:40.839 is community is often the way with people who are 92 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:44.480 very like minded find common cause together, and there's nothing 93 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:48.639 wrong with that. But urbanity is this idea of being 94 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:56.000 confronted and ultimately celebrating difference. Right that if you see 95 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:58.800 a person in a borca, maybe they are way less 96 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:03.639 scary in person than they are as like this kind 97 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:10.240 of thing to be feared online. Right. And similarly, so 98 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.480 like a lot of our work as a firm is 99 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.680 in the industrial Midwest, and it's literally like a lot 100 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.600 of the cities where the red pixels and the blue 101 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.199 pixels meet, and we create a lot of public space 102 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:24.920 in those cities. So I've seen people who are clearly 103 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:28.759 you know, in one political camp and clearly in another 104 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:32.519 political camp, and like I've actually helped create space where 105 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:36.399 they're dancing together. And like that to me is really 106 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:39.800 really important in the times we live in and coming 107 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:43.399 out of the aftermath of this election, and so you know, 108 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.600 I was really glad to get this invitation because you know, 109 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.879 I don't think the fields outside of design take anthropology 110 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:55.680 think that much about correct me if I'm wrong, think 111 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:58.720 that much about design and the built environment is something 112 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:03.560 that's really influential on how people behave. But I think 113 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:05.639 that there is a strong case to be made that 114 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:08.639 in a world of social media and a world of AI, 115 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.079 and a world where technology and algorithms are actively sort 116 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:15.639 of messing with our heads and doing things with our 117 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.639 sense of solidarity as a people, that the built environment 118 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.959 can kind of do the opposite. The built environment can 119 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.360 provide a kind of societal glue in terms of again, 120 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:30.120 like you know, we need to rebuild rural main streets 121 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.600 in this country. Rural main streets have been decimated, and 122 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:35.639 that's something we can talk about. But even in our 123 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:40.399 big cities, we need better and more public space that 124 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:45.720 feels safe and places where we can really celebrate difference 125 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:49.519 and that that celebration, in turn is an act of joy. 126 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.399 And I think it's really important to lean into that 127 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:54.639 because I think you're right, a lot of the literature 128 00:06:54.680 --> 00:07:00.639 around cities is either kind of technocratic or completely misses 129 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.079 the environmental argument by saying, well, they're heat islands and 130 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.720 there are lots of people and they're polluted. No, no, no cities, 131 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.480 When people especially like live in apartments and use mass transit, 132 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.240 we have a way lower carbon footprint per person. They're 133 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:19.000 actually very environmental friendly. Even a small village where people 134 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.920 can just walk around more as opposed to getting in 135 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.000 a car to get a quarter of milk has substantial 136 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.079 environmental benefits. And so there's a lot we could talk 137 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.279 about here about what the environment can do. And I 138 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.199 just find that most policymakers academics don't really pay attention 139 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.879 to this aspect of society at all. Yeah. 140 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.160 No, it's a good point, and I think you're right 141 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.759 that there's kind of a it's just like a there 142 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:46.079 right that literally it's the place in this right where 143 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.199 we are, but we don't often kind of reflect on 144 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:52.160 that in terms of how is our activities behavior shaped 145 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.120 by like how are we in certain spaces? 146 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:54.279 Right? 147 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.079 And it's funny because like a lot of folks might 148 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:00.120 also approach this from the perspective of like, okay, if 149 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:01.959 I'm beginning to think about built the environment in space, 150 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:03.839 like both I can I think about, like how am 151 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:05.040 I about to walk around a sidewalk. 152 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:07.560 Some people might come at it from the like Jane Jacobs, you. 153 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.519 Know, neighborhood's eyes on the street kind of perspective of 154 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:11.920 like how can we all be in a neighborhood space together. 155 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:12.120 And build that. 156 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:15.279 Others might come from it from a kind of I 157 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:17.680 guess the consumer oriented lens worth thinking about like Howard 158 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.160 Schultz from the former CEO of Starbucks idea of like 159 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.199 third space in terms of like what can a coffee 160 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.839 shop it be? That's not work, that's not home. But 161 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:26.639 you know, I kind of think also the important way 162 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:28.480 of how you're approaching this too is that we're we're 163 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.399 kind of missing things before just going from these these 164 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:32.919 two angles only, and that I love this idea that 165 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:35.519 urbanity doesn't have to be in a city, right, that 166 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:37.039 like it's it is about like when we think about 167 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.279 productive frictions too. It is like I think you talk 168 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.320 about that it can be in like rural villages, right, 169 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.720 it can be in these other much smaller spaces. And 170 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.360 so that's something that it's important for us to take seriously. 171 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.159 And what I appreciate that your work does too, is 172 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:51.080 that you approach this kind of like an anthropologist, right, 173 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:52.720 you are saying, how do we bring all these disparate 174 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:57.320 perspectives and viewpoints of how we approach solving a problem together, 175 00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.879 because we can't solve them as silos. That's actually part 176 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:01.440 of the that's actually part of the problem, right, we 177 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.519 keep siloing our thinking into into one arena. And so 178 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.919 in this case, like the question of housing, I think 179 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.000 is such an important piece ford of like how we 180 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:11.080 are able to live together? 181 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:11.320 Right? 182 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:14.759 And you know it might be either the masaceust in 183 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.000 me or the I don't know, the social scientists, but. 184 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:17.600 I appreciate it. 185 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.759 Also how you walk us through in architection of rumanity 186 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:22.039 to think about like a lot of how did we 187 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:23.639 get to some of these challenge points right in terms 188 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.279 of like auto focused car culture, the rise of suburbs, right, 189 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:28.879 and like you know, in a lot of practices that 190 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.039 were like redlining in terms of like doing racial segregation 191 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:33.919 intentionally in cities to split out split out groups. And 192 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:36.360 so I'm curious, like as you think about like some 193 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:39.120 of these historical trends now for folks that haven't checked 194 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.000 out the book yet, like walk us through I guess 195 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:43.720 to some of these, like how we how we have 196 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.360 like gotten ourselves to this point of challenge in terms 197 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:47.960 of like how we've been setting up cities since the 198 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:50.080 fifties really, I mean obviously before that too, Yeah, like 199 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:51.080 what took place here? 200 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.519 And so at the first half of the book is 201 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:55.840 really about how we got here. And I think the 202 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:59.120 important thing to understand is for your listeners especially, you 203 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:02.879 said something that's really critical, which is most of us 204 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.600 we walk around and we imagine that the physical environment 205 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.799 that we're in has sort of always been here. It's 206 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.480 just sort of an a Priori kind of idea. Right. 207 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:14.759 Suburbs are super new. Really, suburbs didn't come into fruition 208 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:17.960 until after World War Two, and they were built very 209 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:22.799 much by design, Federal Highway Act, Mortgage introtroduction GI Bill, 210 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:25.960 and then all sorts of other things that racialized them, 211 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.799 like redlining. I mean, and people sometimes get the wrong 212 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.200 hear the wrong thing when I say that, I am 213 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:34.720 not saying all suburbs are racists, and we please stipulate 214 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.200 that all I'm saying is that the origins of the 215 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.399 suburban story were very much about a certain white middle 216 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:47.360 class that government was designing for, and our economic system 217 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:49.840 was designing for. In fact, I think a lot of 218 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.960 the anger the again in MAGA is about the fact 219 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:59.399 that government. It wasn't that people weren't on government welfare 220 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:03.440 they heer is just that that welfare served a certain 221 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:06.879 group of people, and there is a desire to go 222 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.200 back to that. And then you know, sixties civil rights 223 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:15.279 movement happens, the definition of public expands. It wasn't until 224 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.840 nineteen sixty five intol African American women had the right 225 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.759 to vote nationwide, and so yeah, yeah, I mean that's 226 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:24.440 the year I was born. I mean, I still I 227 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.919 find that it's astonishing. And so our definition of public 228 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:35.440 doesn't really include everyone until the late sixties, and by 229 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.879 that point they're you know, and so this mentality around 230 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:42.559 government spending. So, you know, a country that only ten 231 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:47.720 years earlier had passed the biggest federal infrastructure bill in 232 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.120 the country, the National Highway and Defense Act, that built 233 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.639 our interest at highway system. None of that was seen 234 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.759 as government waste, none of it was seen as like profligate. 235 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:01.279 And by the time you move into to Lyndon Johnson's 236 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.320 Great Society programs, suddenly it's all like we've got to 237 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.759 starve the beast. You know, it's all the government waste. 238 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.600 And so the point is, no matter where you sit 239 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:14.519 with that politically, the important thing to understand is that 240 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.679 the physical environment we have today was a consequence of 241 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:22.000 policy and a consequence of design, and there have been 242 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.519 lots of failures in terms of that. We created, basically 243 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:33.200 with suburban living, the most carbon intensive, racially, socially and 244 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.879 economically segregated form of human habitation in the history of 245 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:45.480 our species. And you know, we actually have this idea 246 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.720 that it's about the American dream. That's not true. The 247 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:50.360 American dream was defined in the nineteen thirties had nothing 248 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.320 to do with houses and cars. That had to do 249 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:57.200 it equal opportunity. And so what could a new version 250 00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:59.840 of the American dream look like? And this is actually 251 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.759 important internationally because that old version of a house and 252 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.919 a car to cars along set up a definition of 253 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.960 success not just for Americans but for people around the world. 254 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:14.600 And so like two billion people entered the middle class 255 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.559 around the world since the nineteen nineties, Russia, China, India, Brazil, Turkey. 256 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.919 Those people, many of them emulated the suburban life as 257 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:28.919 their kind of definition of success, and so the planet 258 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:33.799 is really straining under the resource demands of that, you know, 259 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.600 David Wells. Wells talks about the fact that most of 260 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.480 the we associate climate change in greenhouse gases with the 261 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:45.200 industrial revolution, most of the most pernicious stuff has happened 262 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:48.720 since the first episode of Fleinfeld Eric, and he talks 263 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.000 about this, right that, like, really, this is a pretty 264 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.320 recent phenomena in terms of how intensively we started using resources, 265 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.279 mainly driven by expanding houses and expands and cars. But 266 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.799 the other thing we did is we made all that 267 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:08.000 stuff really unaffordable. We locked in a certain set of 268 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:12.919 benefits for people my age, right and basically made it 269 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:17.840 exclusionary to generations that are younger than me. And so 270 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.759 we you know, everywhere we wrote this article. My firm 271 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:24.320 POW wrote this article in the New York Times about 272 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.279 how to create more housing across New York City, and 273 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.840 it was extraordinary the global response to that article. And 274 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:36.559 what I basically discovered is that there's an affordability crisis 275 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.159 of housing everywhere, like in almost everywhere in the world, 276 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:46.000 in almost every size community in America, from small towns 277 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:47.879 to villages all the way up to the big cities, 278 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:54.360 and so to me, the important aspect of being able 279 00:14:54.360 --> 00:15:01.000 to say we designed for one kind of you know, 280 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:06.279 settlement pattern, it means we can design for another right. 281 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:10.720 And so means we can design for another right. And 282 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.799 so if people want to live in multi family housing, 283 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.559 they want more walkable environment, aggressive say so, but there's 284 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.279 data right like, so you can the most walkable environments 285 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.559 in the country are the most popular, and they're increasingly 286 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:27.000 the most expensive. So that's where people want to live. 287 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.879 It's just more convenient. That's true of red states, it's 288 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:35.720 true of blue states. So how do we produce more 289 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.919 of that? How do we make it more affordable? Because 290 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:42.279 we know it's more ecological and I believe it's more joyful. 291 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.919 You know, there's a great book called The Good Life 292 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.960 that talks about, you know, human health and longevity and 293 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.039 basically says that if you control for a bunch of variables, 294 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.240 that what really leads to human health and longevity is 295 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:00.919 the strength of one social connections, right, which leads me 296 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.519 as an architect to think about, well, what are the 297 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.039 kinds of environments that create social connection? And so like, 298 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:10.639 Towards the end of the book, I talk about housing 299 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:16.440 and housing prototypes that could build more neighborliness, basically build 300 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:20.879 more of a sense of community again amongst different people, 301 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.159 but that's much more affordable and in a way that, 302 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.480 again I think would be joyful and just turn down 303 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:32.200 the political heat that we seem to be experiencing right now, 304 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:38.080 because everyone, regardless of your political camp, are feeling the 305 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:44.639 stresses and strains of this right and so I think 306 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.799 we're at a really good moment to reconsider how we've 307 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.200 been living, what our definition of success is, whether we 308 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.480 need to kind of retool the American dream so that 309 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:04.359 it is more inclusive and more environmentally friendly, less segregated, 310 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.680 and more joyful. I think that's an interesting conversation to have, 311 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.720 and I don't think it's a particularly partisan conversation. I 312 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.519 think it's something that most everyone wants to get involved 313 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:16.240 with at some level. Mm. 314 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:18.759 Yeah, I agree, I think that, and I think it's 315 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:21.359 that's I think part of the power of this approach 316 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:25.000 is that we often get caught either in an abstract 317 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.920 conversation and or as like a boogeyman thing that we're 318 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:29.279 trying to like, or a straw man we're trying to 319 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.799 fight against. Typically, when it comes to you know, political division, 320 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:34.880 but then we think about both what do we share 321 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.279 and that can literally be the shared environment, but then 322 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:39.799 also what is it that we are having trouble sharing 323 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:42.200 and how is it related to our belt environment too? 324 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:46.240 You know, because it's like this interesting piece that when 325 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:48.279 we think about like what is like a public space 326 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.440 that can actually help foster you know, kind of cultural interaction, 327 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.680 like interaction with nature, interaction that's joyful with folks. 328 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.039 You know, Oftentimes we might think of like a. 329 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:58.799 Park, right, so we can all all kind of like 330 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:02.240 congregate in a space together. But I'm kind of curious 331 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.160 like as we think about that, because like that's that's 332 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:07.079 like a super baseline example, right, And so actually I'm 333 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.279 glad you brought up that that kind of housing example too, 334 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.880 because the kind of the Goldilocks size of density that 335 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:13.359 you kind of talk about towards end the book. Do 336 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:15.960 I think it's really compelling way to have us kind 337 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.599 of think about one, Like, I totally agree. I think 338 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.519 it's important point for us to recognize like that another 339 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:22.400 world is possible because we built this one, and it 340 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:24.720 like it doesn't mean because we built this one that's it, right, 341 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.519 And as we kind of think through that when it 342 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.680 comes to things like housing and dwelling as something that 343 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:31.599 like both is it should be afforded to. 344 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.240 Everybody as a right. 345 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:33.880 Then on top of that, like to live with dignity 346 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:36.000 at thest like another another key piece here that I've 347 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.240 also seen you write about, and that it's important for 348 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:39.640 us to kind of think, you know, we kind of 349 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:41.400 talk about both the home as that kind of place, 350 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.559 and like there's there's two angles that are kind of 351 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:46.160 percolating in my head here, and like the one is 352 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:50.319 the kind of public spaces that we share, like parks, sidewalks, uh, 353 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.160 you know, maybe a shopping flosy kind of area, and 354 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:54.799 the other one, of course is like the dwelling, like 355 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.240 like the home, and how we've set these both up 356 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:00.720 Like one you're kind of pointing towards here too, that 357 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:02.799 like the suburbs is one of those places that like 358 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.960 having like the auto automobile focus and like in the 359 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.359 single family home or like this radically new experiment in 360 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.720 the human story, right that we've like decided we didn't 361 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.400 like we haven't had We've not had the suburbs for 362 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:14.720 a long time, right, And so that's like being a 363 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:19.640 built in fracturing of how we lived together separately, and 364 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.000 then on top of that, like how are we thinking 365 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:24.000 about public space and in terms of you know, who 366 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:26.880 has access to it? And that's also comes to our 367 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.279 affordable housing kind of crisis question too. So as you're 368 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:32.240 you're thinking about this and like and maybe we can 369 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.480 talk about the kind of the research you did around 370 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.680 the how to we like build the homes for for 371 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.319 a million a million New New Yorkers As we think 372 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:41.400 about that, like you kind of bring up this idea 373 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.119 of the Goldilocks dimensions of a building, right because we 374 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.160 kind of think, oh, if I need to have like 375 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.720 either you know, affordable housing or new housing, it's like 376 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.759 immediately people tend to think of And I did it 377 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:52.759 first too, before I was looking at your work, like 378 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.119 you know, seventy five story building, not the top, but 379 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.599 just like you know, like a fifteen story building, and 380 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:58.599 like you have this kind of incorrect idea of like 381 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.359 what the size actually has to be, and like this 382 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.440 Goldilocks you know dimensions you kind of talk about, like 383 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.599 is three stories that's not at all crazy to think about. 384 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:07.640 You know? 385 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.000 Yeah? Yeah, So I mean, look, fifteen stories might be 386 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.720 absolutely appropriate in downtown Boston or you know New York 387 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.359 and Philadelphia, San Francisco. Most of the countries are much 388 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.839 lower scale, and we need to be super sensitive to that. 389 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:24.640 The three story thing, really it's a consequence of the 390 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.839 building code. Basically, the building code says you can build 391 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.319 a three story building without an elevator as long as 392 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:34.000 the ground floor units are accessible to a wheelchair, and 393 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.960 so as soon as you have so it's a step function. 394 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:38.880 As soon as you have four stories, you need an elevator, 395 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.759 and that changes everything because you need one elevator, you 396 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.759 need two elevators, and then you need fire stairs, and 397 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.039 then you're pouring a bunch of concrete. And then the 398 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.079 only way the developer can like even break even is 399 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:53.079 building a fifteen story building. And so that's why that 400 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.359 Goldilocks module and the Goldilocks reference is something between a 401 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.880