WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:02.759 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:08.919 It beats listening to nothing. My goodness, it's Frank being Frank, 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:15.039 where the only way to be is Frank. Hello everyone, 4 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:17.679 and welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to 5 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:21.199 be is well Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebon, and 6 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:23.239 I'd like to thank you for joining us on what 7 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:28.239 we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where no 8 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:31.879 conversations out of bounds, in all points of view are welcome. 9 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:35.880 Listeners are familiar with our routine. We record live to 10 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:38.079 tape and I give you the date so you have 11 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:42.920 some context and relevance. We're approaching Saint Patrick's Day. It's 12 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.719 the eleventh of March. And with that in mind, I've 13 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:50.399 always been amazed how much influence a small country the 14 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:53.719 size of Ireland could have on history and culture here 15 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:56.960 in America and around the world. This is especially true 16 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.640 in literature. The amount of great Irish writers like John Swifts, 17 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.560 Samuel Beckett, W. B. Yates, and James Joyce, to name 18 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:08.000 just a few, is vast and impressive. Plays, novels, and 19 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.959 poems written by both irishmen and women have become immortal. 20 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:15.799 Continuing in this tradition, in very much his own way 21 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:19.319 and joining us for some intelligent conversation. Is a man 22 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.959 whose own life is as interesting as the books he 23 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.640 now writes. Here are just some of his highlights. Born 24 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.159 in nineteen fifty six in Oman, Northern Ireland, where he 25 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:33.640 intended both Protestant and Catholic schools, he wanted to be 26 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:37.879 Jacques Cousteau, but wound up working in financial services until 27 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.519 his retirement in twenty twenty one. At that time he 28 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:44.760 began writing his first book, Dance Hall Days. It took 29 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:47.680 him four years to write and publish that one. His 30 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.079 second book, The Cruelest Month, was published in the autumn 31 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:54.239 of twenty twenty five. He uses his family and his 32 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:58.079 life experiences in Oma as the basis for his novels. 33 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:02.480 His wife May was diagnosed with MS multiple sclerosis in 34 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.359 twenty nineteen, and he donates all proceeds from the book 35 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:09.800 to MS research. He is in the process of writing 36 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:12.479 his third book in the series and says he has 37 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:16.520 a whole new lease on life at seventy. Please welcome 38 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:22.000 live from Carrick Fergus, Northern Ireland. Mister Sam, you know Sam. 39 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.240 Thank you so much for joining us from so far away. 40 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:28.639 No problem, Frank, thank you very much for helping me, 41 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.240 for inviting me alone. Are you sure that was me 42 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.159 you were talking about there in the introduction. 43 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:37.000 I took it right from your I took it right 44 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.080 from your bios, so it's got to be true, right 45 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:39.680 to me. 46 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:42.400 The other person I'd like to thank right now is 47 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:47.759 my cousin, Quenton, who lives in New York, for introducing us. So, Quentin, 48 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:48.840 this is all your fault. 49 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:54.800 Yes, I know, Quin. I'll blame him later as well. 50 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:57.240 We'll make sure he gets the link to watch the program. 51 00:02:57.400 --> 00:02:59.719 And I've really been looking forward to this. We've done 52 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.240 some preliminary meetings and I'm sure there's going to be 53 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.759 informative and fun. So let's let's start with the basics. 54 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.159 Tell us about Sam. How did you get where you are? 55 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:12.400 We gave kind of the nuts and balls. You were 56 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.479 financial planning, But how did you get to where you 57 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:16.360 are as an author? 58 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:22.479 Well, I suppose the books are set on Omas as 59 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:24.680 you as you rightly say, where I was born and 60 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:28.319 raised or just over seventy years ago. As you mentioned, 61 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:36.120 I was the third of four siblings. My parents were 62 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.000 both civil servants. That was a very uneventful sort of 63 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:45.400 childhood until I turned sixteen. And over here in the 64 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:51.719 UK we at sixteen you do exams called O levels 65 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:56.120 ordinary levels, so that's that's fifth form in secondary school. 66 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.520 And so I had just completed my O level and 67 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.080 I was always very good at exams, but it was 68 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:07.599 I was a very boisterous child, shall we say I was. 69 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.000 I get that, I say that. 70 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.319 And well, just after our exams, a couple of friends 71 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:17.120 of mine and I went to a pub to have 72 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.439 a few beers to celebrate. We weren't drunk, gronding. We 73 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:23.439 were only sixteen. We had maybe a couple of painting 74 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.839 in us. But on the way home we decided to 75 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:32.000 let off steam outside the school that we went to, 76 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.319 the academy, the Protestant school, which was about fifty meters 77 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.639 from where I lived in the middle of Homa, and 78 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:43.160 we had one of us had cans of spray paint 79 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.160 with him and he was actually bought them to spray 80 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.079 his bicycle. But we ended up writing graffiti all over 81 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.000 the walls of the school. Well, so, and we got 82 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.639 caught and I got expelled. And my mother worked in 83 00:04:57.639 --> 00:04:58.800 the Department of Education. 84 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.720 Wow, big deal, that's a big deal. My mother worked 85 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:04.920 in the high school office couldn't get away with anything. 86 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:09.240 Yeah, So it was it was a major thing, and 87 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:16.519 my father was absolutely vivid, quite rightly. He actually hit 88 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.079 me very hard when he came home from work that 89 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:23.000 afternoon as the only time it ever happened. So that 90 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.079 was the first big event, and it was the first 91 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:34.319 evidence that I had of my mother's strength in that 92 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:38.040 in the summer because the Christian Brothers Catholic School was 93 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.759 about fifty yards from my house in the other direction, 94 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.480 so in the summer at that age, we played a 95 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:49.600 lot of soccer football, as we would call it. And 96 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.920 I knew a lot of people who went to the 97 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.720 Christian Brothers school and was friendly with quite a few 98 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:58.439 of them. So my options when I got expelled Protestant 99 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.439 school wise was to travel for an hour and a 100 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.720 half in one direction, but the other was to go 101 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:09.480 to where Oscar Wild School pertorer in a skilling and board, 102 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:13.360 all of which would have been very expensive and impossible 103 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.759 financially really, and I suggested I go to the Christian Brothers. 104 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:25.480 And this was mcgranny old fashioned Unionist father, unionist mother, Unionist. 105 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:31.279 This was unbelievably out there, but my mother saw the 106 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:36.240 sense in it, and she accompanied me for an interview 107 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.439 at the Christian Brothers with the head master, Brother O'shay, 108 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.879 and it went extremely well and I ended up that 109 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.360 September going to the Christian Brothers to do my A 110 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:51.639 levels for two years before going to university. And I 111 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:54.120 think if I hadn't gone to the Christian Brothers, I 112 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.480 wouldn't have passed me A levels. It settled me down 113 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:00.639 and I got to university and I was the only 114 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.600 Protestant in the school. And this was nineteen seventy two, 115 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.199 so it was the height of the troubles. Bloody Sunday 116 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:13.360 had been that January in nineteen seventy two, the massacre 117 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:20.800 in Londonderry, so that was a huge thing. But I 118 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:24.000 was treated very respectfully that the Christian Brothers have treated 119 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:27.920 very well and the teachers were absolutely brilliant. I said 120 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.040 I wouldn't have passed me exams if it stayed at 121 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:36.240 the academy. It was too wild. So that was that 122 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.519 was the first big event, the big influence on me 123 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.720 of my mother's strength as a person. 124 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:45.079 Yes, Sa, I mean, I think it's important, and again 125 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:46.839 I don't want to make this it's not about the 126 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:49.240 troubles and it's a huge political issue, but we have 127 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:53.680 to frame things in your experience, in your background, relative 128 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:55.759 to what you are today and how you write and 129 00:07:55.800 --> 00:08:00.120 what you write. So what did that all mean? And 130 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.480 I think that as we spoke in prep, the important 131 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.160 lesson that you got from your mother by doing that, 132 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.199 it was there were many messages there obviously to continue 133 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:14.680 your education, but in a way, and you told me 134 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:18.519 something interesting and I'm just paraphrasing that your mother wanted 135 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:21.360 you in a sense also to learn it that Catholics 136 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.519 didn't have three heads. Uh So if you frame, if 137 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.879 you frame that, I think people will understand how important 138 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:31.800 that was. And as you mentioned, how rare it was 139 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:37.399 at that time because the animosity between the two groups 140 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.799 was literally killing one another. So I think it's important 141 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:42.480 to understand that and you will have. 142 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.559 Yeah, well, absolutely, well, I think it was more I 143 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:51.159 explained to my parents and their mother sort of lessoned that. 144 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.480 I told her that Catholics didn't have three heads, and 145 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:58.240 they didn't they didn't eat their children. They were the 146 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:02.080 same as basically they they wanted a job, they wanted 147 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.000 an education, they wanted to bring up their kids. And 148 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:12.840 my mother listened and and I think the thing at 149 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.320 the Christian real hard. People got through all that time 150 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:17.159 because there were a lot of bombs going off and 151 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:20.159 nom before the really big one in nineteen ninety eight, 152 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.559 the famous one where there was a lot of bomb 153 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.879 ordinary bombs if you want to call them, going off everywhere. 154 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:30.600 But the way people got through it and the way 155 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.799 it was dealt without the Christian Brothers school is just 156 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:39.000 it was never discussed ever. We went in, we did lessons, 157 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.600 we went home. I never played any sport at the 158 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.639 Christian Brothers. I was a very keen rugby player. At 159 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.200 the Academy, they didn't play rugby at the Brothers. They 160 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:55.080 played Gaelic football, which I wasn't say it wasn't allowed 161 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:57.240 to play, but I was too old at that stage 162 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:59.519 even just started learning Gaelic football. So we didn't play 163 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:03.279 any sport at all. So there's no after school stuff. 164 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:08.480 It was just home, which wasn't very far away, which 165 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.480 was the big thing. So yeah, it was the fact 166 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:14.759 that I was the only Protestant in the place was 167 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:19.519 mind blowing at the time, and my friends at the 168 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:24.080 academy really almost couldn't believe it. But I started a 169 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:26.600 trend the other way, because I started to meet parents 170 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.799 of friends at the Christian Brothers and their children were 171 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.320 going through what I had gone through at the Academy, 172 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:34.759 and quite a few of them went the other way 173 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.159 and migrated to the academy. So I was. I like 174 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.200 to think I was a pioneer of integrated education. And 175 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:45.559 I'm a big fan of integrated education because I don't 176 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.120 believe you can hit your teammate in the football team 177 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:52.639 or the person that you're doing who's doing your homework 178 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:58.559 for you if you want. So you know, the hatred 179 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.639 is embedded and continues because both sides have a vested 180 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:08.759 interest in keeping it embedded. Well that's my personal view, 181 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:12.399 but I think a lot of people might agree. So, yeah, 182 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:18.279 it was. It was. It was incredibly unique, But it 183 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:20.440 was the best thing ever happened to me because I've 184 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:23.759 got really good friends now from both schools that I've 185 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.159 kept in touch with all this time, and they're still 186 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:29.879 friends and will be forever. 187 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.919 Women have played a big role in your life in 188 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.360 your novels. Talk about that a little bit, your mother, 189 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.840 your wife, your sisters. I know I'll play big roles. 190 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:43.200 Explain why in hell? 191 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:48.480 Well, yeah, all the drama I mean the book. The 192 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:53.279 idea for the books started when my mother was, as 193 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:57.519 I describe it, fading away in the nursing home. I 194 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:02.080 knew that she had had major events in her life, 195 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.480 major trauma and things that you had to deal with, 196 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:07.879 but I didn't know the details again because they were 197 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:13.559 never really discussed. So as she was fading away, I 198 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:17.480 started visiting, driving down from Carrac Fergus to home every day, 199 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:19.840 not every day, once a week, and we started. I 200 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:23.320 started chatting and asking her questions and probing a bit, 201 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:25.879 and she's told me more and more, and the more 202 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.159 she told me, the more amazed I was by how 203 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.480 she had dealt with these things, and how her mother 204 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.679 before that had dealt with bringing up four children in 205 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.559 a two up, two down that flooded every autumn and 206 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.480 there was no help. There was no insurance, so there 207 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:45.840 was nothing. They just went upstairs and lived for two 208 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.679 three days, brought everything up, They hung the furniture up 209 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:53.240 on hooks on the ceiling and went upstairs and stayed 210 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.639 until the floods went down, and they went back down 211 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.919 and cleaned the place up and carried on. My granny 212 00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:04.720 was cleaner. She had three jobs, work cleaning for three 213 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:10.519 businessmen in Noma. My granddad died before the war, so 214 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.399 she was a single parent who brought four of them 215 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:16.720 up on nothing, and they all had to start work 216 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:21.279 at fourteen because they couldn't afford to continue with education 217 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.799 and they couldn't afford not to start work. So my 218 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.720 mother's first job was as a secretary and a solicitor's office, 219 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.600 and she became incredibly good at shorthand and typing and 220 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:38.159 was very enthusiastic. Her two older sisters escaped, one to 221 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:43.600 Canada and one to England, and her younger brother joined 222 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.320 the Navy after he'd had trials for Manchester un edited. 223 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.039 He was a very good footballer, but he didn't make 224 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:54.120 it as a footballer. So those stories led me to think, well, 225 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:59.879 everybody escaped from Oma except my mother, who stayed because 226 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:05.559 of circumstances and ended up looking after her mother. And 227 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.039 it was the strength of my granny and then my 228 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:13.240 mother dealing with the things they dealt with, which involves 229 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.200 initially my the eldest of my two sisters, who I 230 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.879 knew her father wasn't the same as my father, but 231 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.519 that's about as much as I knew, and she didn't 232 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:28.679 live with us. She lived with my granny, but so 233 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.519 she was different, but she was my sister and that's 234 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.480 what we thought of her as. But so that there's 235 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:39.759 a huge story there how that happened. So I know 236 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:45.120 the facts, and I thought this, this, this has to 237 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:52.360 be written down. And then other tragedies happened, and they 238 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.399 say the more she told me, frankly more, I thought, 239 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:56.600 I have to write this down. I'm going to make this. 240 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.519 I've never written any of my life before. But the 241 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:03.639 two sisters, who you know, both previous, they both passed away. 242 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:07.600 I got my younger brother and we left now. But 243 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.159 the stories of the strength of these people and the 244 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.679 tragedies my mother and mc granny, what they dealt with, 245 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.120 I just thought, I'm going to write this down when 246 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.559 I retired. This is gonna be my project in retirement, 247 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:24.080 because I've never written anything before ever. And my mother 248 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.080 would have been horrified at the thought of it, because 249 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.759 she thought she was just an ordinary little woman who 250 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:33.320 worked and brought up her family, married, married with my 251 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.480 father and had an ordinary little life. But I thought 252 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:43.440 she wasn't ordinary, she was extraordinary. And then May came 253 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.679 in on the scene, and we've been married just over 254 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.639 thirty five years. May, Yeah, thirty six years this year 255 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:53.360 we've been married. And she saved me in a way 256 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.360 as well, because I was I was still enjoying a 257 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:59.279 beer or two when I met Mey, just living the 258 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.840 life of a single one or two, a single of 259 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:06.240 a single man. So we met May and that settled 260 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.840 me down incredibly because she was a traveler. She'd been 261 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:12.440 traveling a lot before on her own before we met, 262 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:16.960 and the first as soon as a matter that summer 263 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:20.039 that first year, she she booked a holiday to Turkey 264 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:23.840 to bodroom and and so I knew there was a 265 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:25.720 hotel room in boardroom books. So I just got on 266 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.120 a flight to boardroom and joined up with May. In Turkey. 267 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.480 We're on the beach for about one day and we're 268 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.399 board to tears. So we went on the local bus 269 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.919 to Stanbull overnight. We will only touristive white people on it. 270 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:42.320 And got off the bus saw Hilton Hotel, asked them, 271 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.039 I've had the room for a couple of nights. Where's 272 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.240 the blue mosque? And that was us. We never stopped 273 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:51.080 after that, went long haul. We've traveled the whole entire world. 274 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:58.159 So May's influence was very calming, almost life saving, that's 275 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.440 not too dramatic. So the both of the women, two sisters, 276 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:07.279 all their granny wife, all very very important parts in 277 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.400 my life. And the basis for the book and the 278 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.960 link of obviously with the book was May was diagnosed 279 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.200 with MS two days after my mother died, and the 280 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.319 dots got joined immediately in my head that this is 281 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.359 what I was going to do with even if we 282 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.160 so old one book, I'm going to give every penny 283 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:32.559 to MS research and and and that's what happened. And 284 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:35.079 luckily we've sown quite a lot more than than in 285 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.400 one book. It's been, it's been very it's been it's 286 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.240 been a great project and a great privilege to have 287 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.319 been able to do it. And my favorite pund of 288 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.880 all time is it's a novel way of fundraising. 289 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:50.519 And we're going to talk about that in the novelty 290 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:55.200 of it and all that in time. But another name 291 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.759 that you that you mentioned that's very important in your 292 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:04.240 life and you're reading is your hometown Oma. Why you 293 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:08.359 keep saying it's it's different, Explain then, why it's it's 294 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.519 very in the forefront seemingly of your thinking. I guess 295 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:14.599 as most of our hometowns are, but it seems like 296 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.160 a very special place to you. 297 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.200 Well, yeah, well it is. It's I mean, I left 298 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:24.119 Oma after I left the Christian Brothers and went to university. 299 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.279 I never really went back and lived in Oma after that. 300 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.400 University was up on the north coast near Port Brush, 301 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:34.680 which is the same as for the Giants causeways, and 302 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.240 then it was easier. I met May and she was 303 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.000 she was from Fermana as well. She was a country guirer, 304 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.599 but she was living and working in Belfast. She worked 305 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.799 in the hematology labs in the hospital in Belfast, so 306 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.759 she was kept very busy during the troubles of obviously 307 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.240 working in the the blood bank and the blood labs, 308 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:53.680 and she had a special pass to get through the 309 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.960 barricades and the barriers and stuff. You know, they get 310 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.559 into an essential worker. So we met additionally, seeming sense 311 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.079 to staying up around Belfast because that's where the work was. 312 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.519 But Oma is always home. It's always referred to as home. 313 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.079 We live in carract Fergus have done for a long time, 314 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.319 but it will never really be home. Oma is home 315 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:21.200 and that's where all my you know, if if I 316 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.240 wanted or was going to end up in a nursing 317 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:25.279 home somewhere. I would like it to be Oma, because 318 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.160 that's where all my real friends are, my lifelong friends. 319 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.359 It has changed a lot, obviously over time, but a 320 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:36.000 lot of the pubs that I used to go to 321 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:38.160 are still there, a lot of the buildings that I 322 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.960 used to go to are still there. And it's just 323 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.160 it's a it's a it's a human thing rather than 324 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.079 the geography or the buildings of Oma. It's where all 325 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:52.079 my real mates are. That from both schools. Whenever I 326 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.240 was doing the launch of the first book and Oma 327 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.359 Library that turned that, I was overwhelmed by the turnout 328 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:00.480 of people from both schools. People I hadn't seen for 329 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:05.000 fifty years, people who worked with me mother were there, 330 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:07.759 and they said it was overwhelming and that could never 331 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:13.880 happen anywhere else, only only Oma, simply because that's where 332 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:19.240 it all happened. That's where the protagonists all lived. I 333 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:23.440 think the books could have been set really anywhere. The 334 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.079 universal sort of love story type thing that could have 335 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.160 be set anywhere, but it couldn't be set in a 336 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:32.359 different time because attitudes to things now would be completely different. 337 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.720 So the time is unique. The situation that the place 338 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.799 is simply because that was the place. 339 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.960 Now. And you've mentioned you were not trained as a writer. 340 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.920 You have no real formal training, if you will, yourself taught, 341 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:54.400 and it took you four years to write and publish 342 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:58.160 your first work. What were some of the real challenges 343 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.400 that you faced? Obviously create of writing being one, But 344 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.279 but it's more than that. Talk a little bit about 345 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.400 the challenges of writing a book, especially for someone who 346 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:08.200 doesn't come from that world. 347 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:13.680 But I think my ignorance of what was involved, I 348 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:17.279 would probably might not have started if I'd known I 349 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.079 was involved. 350 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:24.720 That's a good advice for you. Don't think, don't don't 351 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:25.599 think too. 352 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:30.160 Much, just just start. Just yeah, that's what I did 353 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:35.880 about about an a four pad and a box of pens, 354 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.000 and I just started writing. I was lucky in a way, 355 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.279 amost because I knew the story. I didn't have to 356 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:47.400 make up a story. But I quickly learned the only 357 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.759 the only book I read about how to write and 358 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:51.839 how not to write was by Stephen King, you know, 359 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.720 his book on writing, And I learned things like, you know, 360 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:57.839 cut out all the adverbs and make the sentences shorter, 361 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:04.359 and don't put it's short chapters. Keep it as tight. 362 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.240 But that's easier said than done. So I mean, I 363 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:12.079 was just writing The Ring Longhand, and I very quickly 364 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:14.759 learned that fiction is fantastic because you can make things up. 365 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.480 You know, if you don't know anything, just make it up. 366 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.400 And the other thing was the research, because because of 367 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.640 when it was set, you couldn't you know, I had 368 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.839 to know what her cars were available. I made a 369 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.759 few mistakes and then you look it up and say 370 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:34.000 what it was? There wasn't it an austin A three 371 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:36.400 in nineteen fifty six? They didn't come out until nineteen 372 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.720 fifty seven. So and movies, what was what were on? 373 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:43.400 What was on in the cinema, and how much things wear? 374 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:45.240 So I loved all. 375 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:47.079 These things you don't think of, and so you really 376 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:49.720 sit down and let yourself in that. 377 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:53.240 Period, I really really looked into it and what the 378 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:55.799 what the fashions were, what sort of dress should have 379 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.359 worn to the star ballroom where she went dancing again? 380 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.880 And and it was I was muddling away and writing, 381 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:07.319 and I've written a lot of stuff. And then there's 382 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.799 a lady I got to know in the local bookshop 383 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.440 in Carrick Fergus the Secret Bookshelf Joe, the lady there 384 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.559 who's written a few, quite a few science fiction novels. 385 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.000 And I was chatting to her about saying, I've just well, 386 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:24.319 I've just started writing the book myself. You know, any advice, 387 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:29.079 and she said, get an editor immediately. First best thing. 388 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.519 Get somebody who knows what they're doing. And she introduced 389 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:36.279 me to a lady called al Avril Buchanan. And that 390 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.119 was when things really started to take shape because Avril's 391 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:43.400 first question. But in the meantime, May had decided I 392 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:45.680 needed to start typing this up on a laptop. So 393 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:48.839 the laptop we're doing this on now is the laptop 394 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:53.000 I bought to my two finger typing to catch up 395 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.240 with all the scribbles. And that was the first editor, 396 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.279 I suppose, because when you're when you're moving it across 397 00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:59.799 from the scribbles to the laptop, you changed things. You know. 398 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.119 I wouldn't say that, and that's not how that would anyway. 399 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:10.160 So the Averil's first question was how many words before winning? 400 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.160 For how many words have you written so far? And 401 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:14.279