1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 1: Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and 2 00:00:09,759 --> 00:00:13,960 death spy stories and the amazing devices and operations that 3 00:00:14,119 --> 00:00:17,160 made them possible. Now let's get started. 4 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,799 Speaker 2: Back everyone, Today, we have a great guest, doctor Helen Fries. 5 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,119 She's read numerous books on the Second World War, with 6 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,759 particular reference to the ten thousand Germans and Austrians who 7 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,920 fought for Britain. With a portfolio of experiences of World 8 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,079 War Two, historian, Helen undertakes consultancy work for documentary companies 9 00:00:49,079 --> 00:00:51,799 and as a consultant historian for location filming of World 10 00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:55,520 War Two scenes for TV channels including BBC, ITV and 11 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,759 Channel four. She's also been engaged in a range of 12 00:00:58,759 --> 00:01:03,000 writer whiter projects, including the for school's curriculum and adult 13 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:05,519 education related to World War One, World War Two, and 14 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:08,840 the Cold War. She's an honorary member of the Association 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,760 of Jewish Refugees and associate editor for I Spy Magazine. 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,280 She's also an ambassador for the Museum of Military Intelligence 17 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,159 and president of the Friends of the National Archives. But 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,640 we're not going to be talking about any of that today. Actually, 19 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,120 we're gonna be talking about two of her books. For 20 00:01:24,239 --> 00:01:25,159 more recent books. 21 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: One of them is called right Get Right Here, The 22 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:32,439 Walls have ears. It's the General. Nope, not the General. 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,239 Speaker 2: It's the Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two. So 24 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,560 again the Walls have years. The Greatest Intelligence Operation of 25 00:01:39,599 --> 00:01:41,519 World War Two is one book we're going to be discussing, 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,120 and the other one is m I nine. So we're 27 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:46,640 going to be looking at these books together and talking 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,200 about them. Before we get started, make sure to share, subscribe, 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,280 and hit that like button that's always any more time. 30 00:01:51,159 --> 00:01:53,879 Speaker 3: Walking to the show, Doctor Frye. Welcome, Doctor Frye. 31 00:01:54,599 --> 00:01:56,519 Speaker 4: Thank you, it's great to be with you today. 32 00:01:57,079 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for doing this. We truly appreciate it. 33 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:02,319 Speaker 4: So the problem. 34 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:05,359 Speaker 3: The first thing I wanted to do is what got 35 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,000 you into World War Two history? 36 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 4: Oh, I've always been interested in history, and I think 37 00:02:12,039 --> 00:02:16,319 the inspiration, as for many people, often comes from a teacher. 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,039 And there was a very particular teacher when I was 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,120 a teenager who was inspirational. In fact, his period of 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,560 expertise was not actually the Second World War. But I've 41 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,719 always loved history, and I got into this subject because 42 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:35,520 I was looking at the ten thousand Germans, mainly Jewish, 43 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,439 who fought for Britain in the Second World War, and 44 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:41,639 of course there's an equivalent story in America of around 45 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,439 fourteen thousand German Jews who fought with the American forces. 46 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:51,680 So very quickly you soon realize the knowledge of language. 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,680 They're taken into intelligence work stuff behind enemy lines. And 48 00:02:56,759 --> 00:02:59,919 once I got into this, I got hooked, completely hooked. 49 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:03,000 So it was quite accidental in many ways. 50 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the world of the ESPNI is kind of addicting, 51 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:07,919 isn't it. 52 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 4: It's detective work. It's kind of trying to see if 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,199 you can solve the mysteries, which, of course his stories 54 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,120 have been trying to solve for decades. 55 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:19,159 Speaker 3: Folks. 56 00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: I did forget to mention on her new book at 57 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,000 m I nine. It's a history of the Secret Service 58 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:25,919 for escape and Evasion in World War Two. I was 59 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,000 having a little bit of a difficulty reading what I 60 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:29,759 was saying there. 61 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: So doctor Fryar, I guess your first book, The Walls 62 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,159 Have Ears? What is this all about? 63 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is a top secret a bugging operation 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,000 during the Second World War. Many of your listeners will 65 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:47,400 probably have heard of the work of the codebreakers at 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,199 Bletchley Park, but of course it's not just the cracking 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,599 of the Enigma codes. I suppose today what goes over 68 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:59,240 the internet. To give a contemporary analysis or analogy, we 69 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:03,560 also need to human intelligence and the British Intelligence Service 70 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,879 later working with American intelligence after Pearl Harbor believed that 71 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,719 one of your most important sources of intelligence are your 72 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:16,800 prisoners of war. Yeah, you're Germans and Italians as well, 73 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,560 But how do you get the information out of them? 74 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:23,319 You can't rough them up in interrogation. Doesn't give you 75 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:28,240 anything particularly useful or reliable. How do you know it's reliable. 76 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:33,879 It's against the Geneva convention. So the commanding officer of 77 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,120 this particular unit, Thomas Joseph Kendrick, who is whose father 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:44,759 was American. Anyway, he was far cleverer and devised a 79 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:51,639 whole unit that would inadvertently or surreptitiously bug the conversations 80 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,800 of German prisoners of war. So, just to say briefly, 81 00:04:56,319 --> 00:05:00,360 they would have a sort of phony interrogation, and they 82 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:04,319 thought their war was over. They'd go back to their room, 83 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,759 chat to their cellmate and brag about what they hadn't 84 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,839 told the interrogating officer. And they thought they were so 85 00:05:11,879 --> 00:05:15,199 smart and so clever, but of course there were microphones 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,800 hidden in the light fittings and sometimes in the fireplaces. 87 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: Oh man, so Huber's got the best of them. Why now, Kendrick, 88 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,079 what was his position again? He using the military or 89 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,399 was he an intelligence? 90 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: Yes? He was. He was a commanding officer of the 91 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:41,079 whole unit and established this from scratch. He'd already spent 92 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,120 nearly thirty years working in British intelligence from Boa War 93 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,560 South Africa nineteen oh one he was just twenty one 94 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:54,480 years old, and all the way through the First World 95 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:58,279 War in France in intelligence, and then in the nineteen 96 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:02,560 twenties and thirties he's working for what today we call 97 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:09,160 MI six in Vienna running spy networks. He's expelled by 98 00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:13,439 the Gestapo by the German authorities for allegedly spying, which 99 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,600 of course he denies, and he's back in London in 100 00:06:19,319 --> 00:06:22,360 the summer of nineteen thirty eight, and that's when he 101 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:28,120 starts preparing this unit that will springing to action at 102 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,199 the outbreak of war whenever that's going to happen. And 103 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:31,560 of course we now know it was the third of 104 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,839 September nineteen thirty nine that Britain was at war with 105 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,720 Nazi Germany and his unit, he might probably want to 106 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:43,439 talk about this, but his unit went on to mask 107 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:49,079 the most incredible volume upon volumes of information and intelligence 108 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,879 that actually turned the tide of the war, alongside the 109 00:06:52,879 --> 00:06:54,360 code breaking of Bletchley Park. 110 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:59,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know in your book you mentioned I forget 111 00:06:59,319 --> 00:06:59,680 what it was. 112 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,879 Speaker 2: It was like these these homes they were trained into 113 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,519 prisons or something and Trent Park and they were Yeah, 114 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:06,480 on the interrogation. 115 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,199 Speaker 3: Is that part of what you were talking about earlier? 116 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:09,199 Is that a separate entity? 117 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: No, this is part of it. And I suppose I'm 118 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:16,120 personally am reluctant to use the word prison, and the 119 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,120 word prison is never used in the intelligence files have 120 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,279 been declassified. Trent Park in North London, right there at 121 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:29,160 the end of the Piccadilly Line. Could all look on 122 00:07:29,199 --> 00:07:33,560 your map of the underground of London. It was sort 123 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,639 of known as Special Quarters and from nineteen forty two 124 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:44,079 this was where Kendrick held Hitler's captured generals who started 125 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,759 to come off battlefields North Africa. Of course, by May 126 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:52,079 nineteen forty three and that had collapsed, and then after 127 00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:58,480 Sicily Italy, after D Day, all Hitler's top commanders his generals, 128 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,879 Field marshals. They all end up in this house, and 129 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Kendrick has two other houses just outside London called Latham 130 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,680 House and Wilson Park, so it's deep in the countryside, 131 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:15,439 away from prying eyes. Nobody knows what's going on at 132 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:16,560 these secret sites. 133 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,759 Speaker 3: Ominous. That sounds quite ominous. 134 00:08:21,079 --> 00:08:22,839 Speaker 2: And I know we're going to get into a little 135 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:26,600 bit more of the interrogation aspect is in your book. 136 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: It's almost like you're kind of guiding. 137 00:08:29,199 --> 00:08:32,919 Speaker 2: Us to this evolution of interrogation by Kendrick, like almost 138 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,759 how I developed an intelligence and how it improved? 139 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 3: Am I how far off on that? 140 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean he's already a pretty skilled person by 141 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,600 the time he opens this unit because he understands human psychology. 142 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:55,840 He's good actually at enabling personnel in the air, minustry, Army, 143 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,120 naval intelligence, all these kind of rivalries between the departments. 144 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,039 He's the ideal man to set aside those egotistic infighting, 145 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,480 which has been a problem for intelligence before. But not 146 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:13,440 only that, he very rapidly ramps up this unit. He 147 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,120 starts in a very small way in the Tower of London. 148 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:22,240 Tower of London are iconic tourist attraction. Today, that's September 149 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,440 nineteen thirty nine, and just within a few months he's 150 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,840 got his eye on needing a proper big place outside London, 151 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:31,399 and that's when he requisitions Trent Park and increases his 152 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,480 staff from just six, just six of them when they started, 153 00:09:34,519 --> 00:09:38,240 to over five hundred, and by five hundred by the 154 00:09:38,279 --> 00:09:41,039 middle of the war. He's got about a thousand intelligence 155 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:46,399 personnel alongside American intelligence. So he's ramped it up and 156 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,039 he goes on to listen well, his personnel listening to 157 00:09:51,159 --> 00:09:56,240 the conversations of over ten thousand Key prisoners of war, 158 00:09:56,639 --> 00:09:59,759 German prisoners of war. And as we've already said, those 159 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,639 hop commanders Hitler's top commanders. And you know, nobody ever 160 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,960 asks what happened to Hitler's generals when they were captured 161 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:13,080 on the battlefields of Normandy. I did well. They ended 162 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:16,159 up in his stately home, Trent Park, and there they 163 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:19,519 were wined and dined, and they lived the life of 164 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:25,120 relative luxury. And they didn't think or question why they 165 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,200 were not in this and huts with barbed wire. They 166 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,039 were in a beautiful, stately home, plenty of wine and whiskey. 167 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,240 But of course, as you know, the Walls Have. 168 00:10:34,279 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 3: E that's a big con game there. 169 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:44,159 Speaker 4: It's marvelous. Who would believe it? 170 00:10:44,879 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 3: That's crazy stuff. Yeah, if you saw in a movie, 171 00:10:47,919 --> 00:10:49,720 if you pitched it as a movie, you probably say 172 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,759 nobody would believe that story. You can't do that again, folks. 173 00:10:53,759 --> 00:10:55,639 Speaker 2: The book is called The Walls Heavy Years, The Greatest 174 00:10:55,639 --> 00:10:58,679 Intelligence Operation of World War Two, by doctor Helen Fry. 175 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 3: It's really a fascinating and something you don't usually read 176 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:03,799 in the history books, that's for sure. 177 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: Let me ask you doctor Fry, as you mentioned, he 178 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,720 got a lot of access to Hitler's secrets. I guess 179 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,799 anything that stood alfree as we were doing a research 180 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,679 and he said, how could this be? 181 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 182 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,039 Speaker 4: Absolutely, with the Walls Have Ears. One of the big 183 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:25,440 pieces of intelligence they get on Hitler's secret weapons on 184 00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:28,279 the V one and the V two and even the 185 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,440 V three towards the end of the war. And I'd 186 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,799 never heard of a V three, So of course we 187 00:11:33,879 --> 00:11:37,480 had information coming out from behind enemy lines. We'd had 188 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:43,039 bits and pieces about a possible secret weapon. But the 189 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,559 penny finally drops when Hitler's generals at Trent Park and 190 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:51,639 after the fall of Stalingrad. Of course, the Russian campaign 191 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,639 was ended in defeat for the Germans after you know, 192 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,120 they invaded in June forty one. But of course that 193 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:04,000 whole campaign collapses and Stalin Grad finally falls in early 194 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,480 nineteen forty three, and those generals that have already been 195 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,039 captured are sat in the house. They've got delayed news 196 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,720 that this has happened. One of them says, it's quite humorous. Really, 197 00:12:14,039 --> 00:12:17,000 he says, I wish I'd shot myself and they captured, 198 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:22,679 so you've got everyday life and conversations which can be 199 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,440 really fascinating. But one of them says they're thoroughly depressed 200 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,440 and gloomy. And one of them says, that's it, We've 201 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,039 lost the war. And actually it's General foun Toma who 202 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,279 is captured in North Africa brought to Trent. Parker says, no, 203 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,440 we haven't. We've got the secret weapon that is going 204 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:41,559 to turn the tide of the war. And now we 205 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,720 take this intelligence seriously. And in my book I trace 206 00:12:45,919 --> 00:12:50,200 from these bugged conversations about the secret weapon. They mentioned 207 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,480 Penny Munda, where Hitler's developing it on the North German coast, 208 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,080 and there is now a directly you can see it 209 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,559 in the files between that and Churchill ordering the bombing 210 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,080 of Pinnimunda in August nineteen forty three. And I've done 211 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,039 some more analysis for my next book about Kendrick actually Spymaster, 212 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:14,000 and you begin to realize that if we hadn't knocked 213 00:13:14,039 --> 00:13:17,240 out that site in August nineteen forty three, we actually 214 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:20,519 could have lost the war. We certainly couldn't have mounted 215 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,480 the D Day landings. And in knocking out this site, 216 00:13:23,519 --> 00:13:25,120 I think it's just the final thing I would say 217 00:13:25,159 --> 00:13:29,080 on this point, unless you have other questions, that it 218 00:13:29,159 --> 00:13:32,480 was knocked out in August forty three. But the first 219 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,320 V one, that massive super weapon, did not land on 220 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,600 London until a week after D Day June forty four. 221 00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:44,759 That's nine months. And my question to the audience is 222 00:13:44,799 --> 00:13:48,240 to think, what if we hadn't discovered this in time? 223 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,639 And it is now recognized that without this intelligence we 224 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,559 Germany could have won the tech war, and that's true 225 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,159 for the V one, V two, V three atomic bomb program. 226 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,360 We're picking up all of this stuff. When I say 227 00:14:02,399 --> 00:14:07,639 we the British intelligence services in close collaboration and working 228 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,279 partnership with the American intelligence. So it's awesome stuff. This 229 00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:12,320 new research. 230 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing stuff and stuff you don't see on 231 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:17,480 the textbooks, that's for sure. 232 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: I guess that's kind of a goad. 233 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 4: Yeah that I was going to say, actually you don't 234 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,279 because it's still so very new. The files were only 235 00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:31,759 declassified about ten years ago, and it takes time. I 236 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,879 mean I got to them just within quite accidentally, just 237 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,159 within a few months that they've been declassified. And some 238 00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:43,039 of it's so dense, you know, the conversations are very 239 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,039 technical in many cases that I think his stories, if 240 00:14:46,039 --> 00:14:48,639 they pull them up, would just send them back again. Think, oh, 241 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,440 but you've got to persist. And the reason I persisted 242 00:14:53,919 --> 00:14:57,759 was because of what we call a secret listener, and 243 00:14:57,799 --> 00:15:01,559 these were German Jewish refugees who were taken up by 244 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:05,279 Kendrick's unit to sit in what were known as m 245 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,240 rooms with their headsets on, like we've got our headsets 246 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:13,399 on now in the m rooms, recording the conversations at 247 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:16,879 those three sites. And I promised him, you know, he 248 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:20,840 said to me, Fritz Lostig sign the Official Secrets Act. 249 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:23,159 At the end of the war we went into civilian life. 250 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,960 Did we do anything that made any difference to the war, 251 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,600 He said, I sat in the countryside for three years. Yeah, safe, 252 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:35,360 I lost comrades on the battlefields. Did we do anything 253 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,759 that made a difference. Nobody told us. They just thanked 254 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:39,840 us at the end of the war. It was all 255 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,799 hush hush. And now the files have been declassified. I 256 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,799 promised him I would look at them and I would 257 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:49,879 answer that question. And even I was staggered by the 258 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,120 sheer volume of intelligence we were getting. We were getting 259 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,559 it nowhere else than these sites. And it is true 260 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:01,279 to say that with blatch Sheep and the code breaking, 261 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,000 you know, without that, we couldn't have won the war. 262 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:07,879 That's I know, it's a very brief assessment, but that's 263 00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:10,519 what I argue in the book, and I hope readers 264 00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:11,480 will be convinced. 265 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,399 Speaker 3: Again, Folks definitely recommend the book. 266 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:16,399 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating read, and I'll definitely give you a 267 00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:19,360 different perspective of history. The Walls have ears the greatest 268 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,440 intelligence operation of World War Two. 269 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,399 Speaker 3: And I guess I have a couple of questions, not necessarily. 270 00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: Directly about the book, but maybe a little bit a 271 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,320 little bit about it and a little bit about process. 272 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,879 Speaker 3: I know, when I've spoken to other authors. 273 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: At least in the US, I've spoken to a few 274 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:35,879 obviously in the UK as well, but when I've spoken 275 00:16:35,919 --> 00:16:38,960 to the US, it's complicated to get these files, these 276 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,039 classified files or declassified files. They have to do a 277 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:44,320 lot of work. At least they have to go to 278 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,080 special places to go access them. How is it for 279 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,159 you in the UK? Is it the same processes it 280 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,360 take a lot of work to get them when they 281 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:51,919 give you classified or is it simpler? 282 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 4: No, it's the whole research process is a detective process. 283 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,720 It's a journey and you never know when you start 284 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:03,960 out how long it's going to take. You obviously have 285 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:08,880 to scope what files have been declassified. We don't have 286 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:14,720 access to classified files. Nobody has that privilege, with a 287 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,759 couple of exceptions from Keith Jeffrey who wrote the fficial 288 00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:21,039 History of m I six example, or Christopher Andrew who 289 00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:24,720 wrote the ficial History of m I five. But generally 290 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,839 historians have no access, so they have to work with 291 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,759 what's in the National Archives in London. But also I 292 00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:35,039 was lucky enough to interview surviving veterans who are actually 293 00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:38,880 no longer with us, and you also rely occasionally on 294 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,160 relatives coming out of the woodwork saying I've got this 295 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,599 suitcase of papers, and I have no idea what my 296 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,720 dad did or what my mother did, and you begin 297 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:52,119 to piece together. So it is a process, and with 298 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,119 intelligence history you can never get a totally full picture 299 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,680 because there's still stuff I guess that can never be 300 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,640 really east. But I'm okay with that. I used to 301 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,960 think when I was younger that we had to tell 302 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,640 the whole story. And with a lot of history books 303 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,359 and with other kinds of history, I think we can 304 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:15,240 can make huge progress. But with intelligence history, sometimes you're 305 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:18,240 working on stuff later on, a few years down the line, 306 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,519 and you come across something hidden deep in the files 307 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:24,799 that connects to something earlier. So there's always a process 308 00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:28,240 and a journey of understanding, and it's not always a 309 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:31,480 complete picture because of course it was so top secret. 310 00:18:32,079 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 3: That's a great point. That's hard too. And when you 311 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:36,240 go on back in time to get. 312 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:40,039 Speaker 2: Get the whole stories, it's almost impossible in a lot 313 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:40,440 of ways. 314 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 3: There's so much going on. Even in our own. 315 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: History books, right we only hear get snippets of stories. 316 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,759 We could actually have a whole course on each each 317 00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:49,839 chapter in one of those history books if you really 318 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:51,599 wanted to push it let. 319 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,279 Speaker 3: Me ask you this. Actually, you know what, I'll keep 320 00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:54,039 this for the end. 321 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: I'll keep this question, okay, the end, which is just 322 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,279 it's an opinion question if did Hitler really die? 323 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: But we'll get to that link. Oh gosh, that seems 324 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:06,880 to be a conspiracy that still lives today for some 325 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,119 strange yes, it does. As a historian, how I get 326 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,559 your take? We're switching over to a group that I 327 00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:13,680 hadn't heard about before. 328 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,839 Speaker 2: Am I nine, a History of the Secret Service for 329 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,119 Escape and Invasion in World War Two. This is her 330 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,079 other book, folks, and she has several books you might 331 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,440 want to check out. This is a thrilling history of nine, 332 00:19:25,519 --> 00:19:27,759 the World War Two organization that engineer the escape of 333 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:29,759 Allied forces from behind enemy lines. 334 00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:32,559 Speaker 3: So let's find out all about this, doctor five. What'sm 335 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:33,119 I nine. 336 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is on the spectrum of military intelligence. 337 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,200 And so we've mentioned already, haven't we m I five 338 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,799 and mi I six, And people are very familiar with 339 00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:48,759 those British intelligence institutions. But for us, it goes from 340 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,279 m I one all the way up to m I nineteen, 341 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,000 and each each had their own you know, brief and 342 00:19:58,079 --> 00:20:02,319 it has changed since foundation I mean the services in 343 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,480 nineteen oh nine, British Secret Service and British Intelligence Services. 344 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:12,279 The Military Intelligence Band that I nine specifically is in 345 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,240 charge of prisoners of war, whether it's our prisoners in 346 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:20,480 prisoner of war camps or trapped behind enemy lines, or 347 00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:23,480 whether it's enemy prisoners of war. And the idea, of 348 00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:26,480 course Kendricks unit we talked about earlier originally fell within 349 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,559 MI I nine. M I nine became so big it 350 00:20:30,759 --> 00:20:34,680 branched into I nine and m I nineteen in nineteen 351 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,200 forty two. So this is this gives you an idea 352 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,519 of what's ramping up in terms of intelligence. So I 353 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,039 nine proper then is left with our prisoners of war 354 00:20:46,319 --> 00:20:50,960 trying to get intelligence from our personnel, but also to 355 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,519 bring them back to escape or to evade capture in 356 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:58,319 the first instance, to train them before they go into action. 357 00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:01,640 So there was a three training course for all personnel, 358 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,920 and the Americans did exactly the same. To think, because 359 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,319 if you're captured, if you've just bailed out of an aircraft, 360 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,039 you might not think logically, or you might not be 361 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,119 so security conscious because you can give yourself away very easily. 362 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,519 And so nine gave a three week training course so 363 00:21:20,559 --> 00:21:24,079 that you had a chance to evade, capture or escape. 364 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,720 And the important thing is to get our personnel back 365 00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:31,720 to fight another day. And if you think about pilots 366 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,319 in particular, they're very expensive to train, but it actually 367 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,799 takes up to three months. You can't be losing your 368 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,440 pilots because the German Air Force could quickly gain superiority 369 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,720 and then well, yeah, imuntine invasion of Britain for example, 370 00:21:46,759 --> 00:21:51,240 of the United Kingdom, so very very high priority, and 371 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,200 the Germans didn't seem to have an equivalent the Americans did. 372 00:21:55,599 --> 00:22:02,079 The Americans had, American intelligence had mish X, rather obscure 373 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,079 and name for it. But they were doing exactly the 374 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:09,839 same thing. They were bringing Allied personnel back from Western 375 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,599 Europe and of course from the Far East, the Middle 376 00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:18,039 East wherever they were trapped potentially in enemy occupied territory. 377 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:21,319 And Emma and I went on to save over thirty 378 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:26,000 five thousand Allied personnel and to bring them back. It's 379 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,599 a huge legacy. 380 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. That's amazing. It's amazing just listening to 381 00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:36,319 you how large the breath World War two is. I mean, 382 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:37,680 there's so much going on. 383 00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: At least I haven't heard a lot of it that 384 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,160 that's happened through it. No matter how much you read, 385 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,640 there's just so much happening everywhere. Now in this book, 386 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,640 you know, you drew a lot on declassified files I 387 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,319 can normally do and eyewitness testimonies. Was this one a 388 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,839 little bit more heavy on the eyewitness testimonies or declassified files? 389 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 3: You think. 390 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:58,319 Speaker 2: I use? 391 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's the same for both of them. 392 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,400 I used. I went to the primary sources because there 393 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,839 have been books before on I nine, but not for 394 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:13,000 forty years. And there were two men in MI I 395 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,039 nine who were the giants at our end in Britain. 396 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,839 One of them was Airy Neve, who famously was blown 397 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,200 up by the IRA, wasn't it? And Thatcher's government and 398 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,640 Jimmy Langley. They wrote books, one of them with Mdr Foot, 399 00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:35,400 but they didn't have access to declassified files. So Yale 400 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:37,839 University Press sort of, you know, put it to me, 401 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:40,480 wouldn't it be good to write an updated version of 402 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:42,480 the m I nine and what more can we discover? 403 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,000 And then we kind of sat there and realized it 404 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:49,039 had been forty years since anyone had written its history, 405 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:53,039 and forty years and the file to come out in 406 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:57,079 the meantime. So what I've done, and I think it's 407 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,880 worked very well, is you've got the organization of m 408 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,920 I nine in the background, in the American equivalent, but 409 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:08,119 within that, and it's done chronologically. I've told and woven 410 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,960 the stories, the key stories escape routes across Europe. I 411 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:16,440 concentrate primarily on Western Europe because it's a huge topic. Otherwise, 412 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,759 so that people get an understanding of the achievements, not 413 00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:23,359 only the organization. It's not dry that I am. I 414 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,720 intered in the human stories. Those thousands of men and 415 00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:33,720 women who acted as helpers, guides, couriers, who saved are personnel. 416 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,920 Their acts of bravery really shined through and they are extraordinary. 417 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,799 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I know you even mentioned Mary Lindell. 418 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 2: I think, yes, one of the females, one of the 419 00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:46,640 only females I think right. 420 00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:49,039 Speaker 3: In regards to parachuting or something like that. 421 00:24:49,079 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 4: Perrier, well, yeah, there was Vitres Truand who was parachuted 422 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,079 into Holland. But Holland was a very tricky situation. She 423 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,279 was captured. Nine had a top secret section called IS 424 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,319 nine or Intelligence School nine. It stood for also under 425 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,240 the umbrella known as Room nine. Hundred and this they 426 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,640 love all these obscure names. It's the same thing. But 427 00:25:13,759 --> 00:25:17,680 Room nine hundred was sending agents behind enemy lines, and 428 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,200 Beatrice Truda was one of them behind enemy lines in 429 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,519 the same way as we think of SE the Special 430 00:25:24,519 --> 00:25:29,519 Approations Executive. Everybody knows about SOE and the courageous agents 431 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:32,599 men and women. And you have the Americans too, don't you. 432 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,440 There were parachute behind enemy lines, drop behind any lines, 433 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,839 all sorts of ways, landed by boat, whatever. But m 434 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,839 I nine, under its top secret section, Room nine hundred 435 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,480 percenting its own agents, and Mary Lindell was another one 436 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,319 who worked. She also we believe had some links with 437 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,880 MI six SIS as it's also known, so she was 438 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,839 also sort of working with them. But she went on 439 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,680 to save known as the Cockleshell Heroes, and they were 440 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,319 the condos that were on top secret mission to Bordeaux 441 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,640 canoe down the river to place limpet mines on the 442 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,000 German ships in the port of Bordeaux. Two of them 443 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:15,640 were successful, actually, but only two of them got back. 444 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:19,039 The rest lost their lives. So it's hugely dangerous mission. 445 00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:23,559 Of twelve of them involved, and Mary Lindell surveys. Sorry 446 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:30,559 Mary Lindell rescued the only two survivors of that mission, 447 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,200 and her bravery against steely Nerve is really worth reading about. 448 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,119 In the book She Was Fearsome. 449 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,279 Speaker 2: It was an amazing There's so many incredibly strong, brave 450 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,319 females in the world of espionage and World War Two 451 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,720 and over the years, it's amazing as you listen to 452 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:49,279 some of these stories. 453 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: Again, folks. 454 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 2: The book is called them I nine The History of 455 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,319 the Secret Service for Escape and Invasion in World War 456 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,839 Two by doctor Helen Frye. We also talked a little 457 00:26:57,839 --> 00:26:59,880 bit about her other books, Through the Walls, Heavy Ears. 458 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,119 She's got over twenty books, that's right, twenty books focusing 459 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,039 on intelligence and POW's and World War Two. So if 460 00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:09,519 this is your genre, definitely recommend the books. If you 461 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:12,279 haven't read the genre, I highly recommend the books. It's 462 00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:13,920 kind of hard not to recommend the book. 463 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 3: Doctor Frye. 464 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 2: I guess as we get away from these last two 465 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,559 books now, just a couple of questions in regards to. 466 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,039 Speaker 3: Things in society people always kind of wonder about. I guess, 467 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,920 is there are there any movies out there? 468 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: And I know this might be a little tricky because 469 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,319 you're overseas, over there across the pond, as they say. 470 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:32,559 But are there any movies that stand out for you 471 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:35,680 that you say that's pretty spot on or that's way 472 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,759 off the mark in regards to World War Two? 473 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 4: Well, there was one that came out recently actually called 474 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,519 A Call to Spy and it is available on like 475 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:52,279 the Netflix platform and others. And for me, that seemed 476 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:58,440 very very close to a story about female agents in 477 00:27:58,519 --> 00:28:03,319 France dropped into France. And usually those stories are quite similar, 478 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,759 you know, previous films, but this one, there's something special 479 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,480 about this one, and you get a close understanding of 480 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:15,440 the difficult decisions which face the lady who sent the 481 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,160 female agents in particular, and well and she sent male 482 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,039 agents into France was one Vera Atkins, And you get 483 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:25,240 a sense the film has very the first time has 484 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:30,279 focused on her and three of her agents, and I 485 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:36,200 think we finally, very subtly get an understanding of the 486 00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:40,680 challenges she faced and how it worked behind the scenes, 487 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,680 and then that's woven into the brave story of people 488 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,519 like yak Nor Khan. And I always forget the name 489 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,920 of the American one that where it was dropped in 490 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,240 with the wooden leg. Her name escapes me immediately. I remember, 491 00:28:55,359 --> 00:29:00,240 since you finished the interview, it'll come to me. Virginia Hall. 492 00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:04,480 There you go. Yeah, very brave woman. In fact, she 493 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,599 was smuggled out of France over the Pyrenees by the 494 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,480 M I nine networks. Oh really interestingly. Yeah, it's a 495 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,640 fantastic scene in the film A Call to Spy, and 496 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,839 I hugely recommend it where she is struggling and you 497 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,119 just get the sense of, oh my gosh, how difficult 498 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,079 it was to get out over the Pyrenees. And there 499 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:28,440 she is struggling with her wooden leg, but she does 500 00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:32,160 make it, she escapes, and yeah, you get a sense 501 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,119 of the bravery. And to me, it feels as though 502 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,079 that film was kept very close to reality, and it 503 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,640 felt very real. Yeah. So I enjoyed that film very 504 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,319 much and I'm a huge fan of it. 505 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: Oh, I have I have to look at that card, Despi. 506 00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:53,680 I guess I'd be remissing. I don't mention it. What 507 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,839 are your thoughts, as I know you're more of a 508 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,319 historian per se than solely focused on spies, but what's 509 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:03,200 your take on James Bond? 510 00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:11,039 Speaker 4: That's not controversial at all? Okay, a couple of things 511 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:14,440 about James Bond. I think I've grown to enjoy the 512 00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:19,319 films more as I've got older. I love the more 513 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,240 recent ones. I think they're fantastic. Yeah, I do. And Okay, 514 00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:26,680 he's always blowing up. The big buildings are falling on 515 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,759 top of him almost and he's leaping between, you know, 516 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,960 doing the impossible. But we expect that that's what we 517 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,480 want from our James Bond. Our Ian Fleming's character's the 518 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:41,680 license that's gone further. But interestingly it is quite a bit, 519 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,839 certainly in the early stuff which comes from Ian Fleming's 520 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,799 wartime career. So there's me merely thinking he's been quite 521 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,319 a genius in you know, these novels. But the escape gadgets, 522 00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:57,920 for example, they're part of m I nine, and Fleming 523 00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:00,720 was linked to m I nine. I think for me 524 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:03,279 it's also fun. I don't sit there and watch the 525 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:06,519 James Bond films and think, oh, I've read that in 526 00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:10,039 the files. I do sit there and I enjoy them, 527 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:13,799 but I think now i'm older, I think I enjoy 528 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,240 them because you get a sense that in places they 529 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,119 are very close to the truth. But as with everything, 530 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,119 it's walls and mirrors and you don't know which bits 531 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,480 are absolutely true, but you just get a feeling that 532 00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:28,599 it is rooted in that world. And of course it's 533 00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:32,160 gone beyond that world. It's for our entertainment, But I 534 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,240 do love Fleming stuff. Yeah, I guess. 535 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: My other question is one of my favorite shows from 536 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:39,000 the UK was Foyle's War. 537 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 4: I love Foyle's War. If anybody's listening that has any influence, 538 00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,000 please we want more of Foyle's War. 539 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:52,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, bring back Michael Kitchen. What's your take on that. 540 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:53,839 That seem to be pretty accurate or is it? 541 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, it's very accurate. In a couple of places 542 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,119 they change the locals, but there is a scene, for example, 543 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,720 an interrogation scene. It's very close to the truth. And 544 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:10,640 that tips over into another book I did on the 545 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,480 London cage as it was called cage slang interrogation quarters. 546 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:20,680 So yeah, he does meticulous research and he's quite open 547 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:23,920 I believe about the fact that some of it is 548 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,839 based is being inspired by stuff he's read in the 549 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,000 National Archives. 550 00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 3: Amazing, amazing. 551 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,279 Speaker 4: Across the whole series. 552 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and how. 553 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: He takes that personal human side of that time, that's 554 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,559 the amazing thing for me. Because you see, it wasn't 555 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,599 just about the war, it was about everything else that disrupts, 556 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:47,799 love lives. 557 00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:51,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, family, everything was just amazing. 558 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 4: And Foyle himself says very little. If you think about 559 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,960 how many lines he says, it's all about his face 560 00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:03,839 and his movements, and he's just a glance and it 561 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,279 says it all. We all understand what it means. But yeah, 562 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,880 if your viewers can get hold of if they haven't 563 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,759 seen Foyle's War, yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. And the twists 564 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:15,440 and things. 565 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 3: Yeahs, I'm sorry. 566 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:22,559 Speaker 4: I had a lot of murders in that area of Hastings, 567 00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:25,200 didn't they in World War Two? According to Foyle's War. 568 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a serial killer on the loose over there. 569 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,079 Speaker 4: I know, it's fantastic stuff. I loved it. I loved it. 570 00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 3: I guess my last question, I guess we'll wrap up 571 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,400 with Hitler. Is he really dead or not? I can't believe. 572 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:41,319 Speaker 2: I know where people still believe Elvis Presley over here 573 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,359 is possibly still alive, and JFK is somewhere as well. 574 00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:48,039 Speaker 3: Hitler. It was interesting because I think even Discovery Channel 575 00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:50,559 or HBO what are those cable channels took it. 576 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,839 Speaker 2: A step further last year when they started doing a 577 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,960 documentary on Hitler and his general's over in Argentina. 578 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so he got crazy. 579 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 4: What do you say, Well, it's not something I've personally 580 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,079 researched myself about the whole crep of Nazi flight and 581 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,880 those that got out to Argentina, etc. But yeah, I mean, 582 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,800 of course Hitler would be dead now, he'd be far 583 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,559 too old to be still alive, so that we know. 584 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,880 So answer to your question, is he dead? The answer 585 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,119 is yes. Do I think he made it out of 586 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:26,400 the bunker? No, I think he died in the bunker, 587 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:30,800 But there's always you know, you never know for sure 588 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,760 because you know that could be turned on its head. 589 00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:38,639 But based on the current evidence we have, yes, it's 590 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:41,679 I think, yeah, he died in the bunker. In fact, 591 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,400 I interviewed a veteran who is still alive, and he 592 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,400 was involved in counterintelligence in that period at the end 593 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,360 of the war. He was on he came over on 594 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,719 the Kinder transports. He's of the young, slightly younger, he's 595 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,320 still in his late nineties now, and he said, there's 596 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,920 absolutely no doubt that Hitler died in the bunker, because 597 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,360 I asked him. I said, look, this is flying around 598 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:06,480 and there's absolutely no question, according to him, that Hitler 599 00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:08,840 died in the bunker. So yeah, I'm not a fan 600 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,239 of conspiracy theories. 601 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,679 Speaker 3: I'm not either, but sometimes make for interesting chats. 602 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 4: I guess, well, look it gets us thinking and reassessing evidence. 603 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,599 I think that's always important that we that we're challenged 604 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:26,000 at times. 605 00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely again, folks of the books, doctor Helen 606 00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:31,960 Frye f r Y. 607 00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: The book is m I nine, a history of the 608 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:37,079 Secret Service for escaping invasion in World War Two. The 609 00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:39,400 other book we talk briefly about as well in the 610 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,519 beginning of the show. Again briefly is because they're only 611 00:35:41,519 --> 00:35:43,480 touching the tip of the iceberg, folks, it's called The 612 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:46,320 Walls Half Ears. Another great book she just mentioned. I 613 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,599 think it's The London Cage. But she has over twenty books, 614 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,119 lots of books focusing on intelligence and POWs. So if 615 00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:55,400 you're into the espionage world, these are the books for you. 616 00:35:56,119 --> 00:35:57,679 Speaker 3: Doctor fry Thank you so much for. 617 00:35:57,599 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 4: Being here, Thank you for having me. 618 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,159 Speaker 3: Fabulous stuff, folks, Thank you for listening. Make sure to share, subscribe. Hey, 619 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:06,039 if you're on Apple, give us those five stars. We 620 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:08,880 truly appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Everybody