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Every 54 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.719 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 55 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.000 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 56 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.240 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 57 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.520 Good Evening on a hot night. In July nineteen ninety five, 58 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:54.960 Janet Downing, a forty two year old mother of four, 59 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:59.319 was brutally stabbed ninety eight times in her home in Somerville, 60 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.759 a city two miles northwest of Boston. Within hours, a 61 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.840 suspect was identified, fifteen year old Eddie O'Brien, the best 62 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:15.039 friend of one of Janet's sons. But why Eddie. He 63 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:18.360 had no prior history of criminal behavior, He was not 64 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:22.759 mentally ill, He had neither motive nor opportunity to commit 65 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.520 the crime. Yet none of that mattered, because powers beyond 66 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:30.479 his Somerville neighborhood decided that Eddie needed to be guilty. 67 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:36.400 The timing of this case did not bode well for Eddie. 68 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.280 A movement hoping to stop the supposed rise of young 69 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:43.560 super predators was sweeping the nation, and juvenile offenders were 70 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:48.400 the targets. Both the Massachusetts governor in an elected district 71 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:53.280 attorney who personally litigated this case, supported juvenile justice reform, 72 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:58.919 and both aspired to higher offices. Eddie O'Brien's case garnered 73 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:03.840 both local and nottional publicity. He was a youthful Irish 74 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:08.280 Catholic boy. Next door his grandfather was the retired chief 75 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:12.520 of the Somerville Police Department. Court TV covered the trial 76 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:16.120 in adult court gavel to gavel, calling it the Altboy 77 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:21.959 Murder Case. His highly publicized case changed the juvenile laws 78 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:26.120 in Massachusetts. Other states began to follow suit. But did 79 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.639 the justice system fail Eddie? That's the contention of author 80 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:34.600 Attorney Margot Nash in her explosive expose The Politics of Murder. 81 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:40.920 Appointed Eddie's guardian ad litem, Nash attended every court session 82 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:45.639 eventually gained access to all his files. Now, after painstaking 83 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:50.519 research and examination of each step of the investigation, trial transcripts, 84 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:54.040 and the forensic evidence, Nash makes the case that Eddie 85 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:57.040 could not have committed the crime and that other viable 86 00:04:57.079 --> 00:05:01.680 suspects were never properly considered. The book that we're featuring 87 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.240 this evening is the politics of Murder with my special guest, 88 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.600 journalist and author and attorney Margo Nash. Welcome to the 89 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:10.519 program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 90 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:15.399 Margo Nash, Thank you Dan, and thank you for inviting me. 91 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:21.920 Thank you very much. Fascinating case. Again, as I mentioned before, 92 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.639 I'm learning so much for the differences between the vast 93 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:33.560 differences between state law. Incredible difference. Let's get right to this. 94 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:35.959 I won't ask why you got involved with this because 95 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.639 we will see very early on why you were involved 96 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.879 with this. As I mentioned, you were appointed the guardian 97 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.720 ad litem. Let's just start with what a guardian ad 98 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.319 litem is. Give us that background, and give us your 99 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:53.759 background as a lawyer before as an introduction to how 100 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:55.600 you came to this case. 101 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:02.639 Sure, a guardian lightem is an attorney, usually an attorney. 102 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:07.240 It doesn't have to be appointed in a lawsuit, and 103 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:12.040 generally it happens in child custody proceedings and they are 104 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:15.839 appointed to protect the interests of the child who is 105 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:23.120 a mayor. And in this particular case, Eddie's attorneys asked 106 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.759 for the appointment about guardian ed Letham for various reasons, 107 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:33.240 and the judge appointed me to help Eddie navigate his 108 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:36.399 way through the system he was in the juvenile system 109 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.800 at that particular point, to help him understand the proceedings 110 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:45.079 and various things that were happening to him. My background 111 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:49.920 is that I graduated from law school in nineteen eighty 112 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:54.639 three and for five years I was an attorney with 113 00:06:54.759 --> 00:07:01.439 the State Department of Social Services, where I prosecuted abuse 114 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:05.639 in neglect cases. And I then went into private practice 115 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:09.879 and did a number of different areas of law, one 116 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.399 of which was juvenile law, another was divorce and child custody. 117 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:18.240 And I also was certified by the court after taking 118 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:23.240 certain courses required courses to be a guardian ned lightem tactics, 119 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.839 a guardian dead item, so that I could protect children's 120 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.720 rights in the court system. 121 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:35.120 Now, as you talk about in the book, here we 122 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:39.399 you set up the story. Begin the story with a 123 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:44.399 little background on Eddie O'Brien. His grandfather's birthday was a 124 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:51.720 week before this incident. His grandfather, TJ. Or Chief, as 125 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:53.240 he was known, was the chief of police for the 126 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.839 Somerville Police as we had mentioned, and he had retired 127 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.160 years before. Eddie's Father's name is ed. So tell us 128 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:07.560 a little bit about who Eddie's family was, the members 129 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.480 of his family, and tell us about the Downing family 130 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.560 which was right across the street before we talk about 131 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:16.759 this little neighborhood a little ways out. 132 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:24.120 Of Boston, Okay. Eddie's parents, their names are ed and 133 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:31.040 Tricia Patricia and Tricia was her maiden name is also O'Brien. 134 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:34.759 They both grew up in Somerville. They both come from 135 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:41.919 Irish Catholic families with several siblings. Ed is the youngest 136 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:48.919 of his group of siblings, having been born much after 137 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:52.279 some of his older siblings. He grew up in the 138 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:58.279 house that Eddie later and his siblings later grew up in. 139 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:04.200 It was a family home owned by the chief. There 140 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:09.159 were five children in the house. Eddie had an older 141 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.519 sister named Jean Eddie Jessica was twelve at the time, 142 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.639 two little girls named Mary and Meghan three years old 143 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.159 and three months old at the time of the incident. 144 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:23.279 So that's who was living in the Eddie O'Brien house. 145 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:28.759 And Papa, the grandfather, the chief, was in the house. 146 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.200 As you said, There was a birthday party for him 147 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:34.799 the week before this incident. He had just been diagnosed 148 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:41.080 with terminal cancer and he was not well and he 149 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:47.440 would die not too long after Eddie's arrest of cancer. 150 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:53.559 Across the street, the Downings, they purchased a house whereas 151 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.120 the O'Brien family had lived in that house for at 152 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:00.919 least one generation so far. The Downing family moved into 153 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.799 that house when Janet married her husband, Paul Senior. At 154 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:10.440 the time of the incident, Paul and Janet were divorced, 155 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.919 had been divorced, I believe Paul. I know Paul was 156 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:17.720 remarried at that point and lived in another town. Janet 157 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:26.639 lived there with. Janet had four children. The oldest was 158 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:33.159 Carrie Anne, and then Aaron, and then the twin boys, 159 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:39.399 Ryan and Paul Junior were fifteen sixteen years old at 160 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.679 the time and in the house. The only child that 161 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:44.559 was not in the home at the time living in 162 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:52.279 the home was Carrie Anne. The family. I'm sorry to 163 00:10:52.360 --> 00:11:02.799 go ahead, I say that I'll wait for your question. 164 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:09.480 To round this out. You have you mentioned that Janet 165 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.600 rented the other part of the duplex that she lived 166 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:17.480 into Barry and Virgina Wrecley, And you also talk about 167 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:21.240 again a very crucial person and character in this story 168 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:26.159 is Gina Mahoney. So let's talk about Virginia and Barry Wreckley, 169 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.000 and then we'll talk about Gina Mahoney to round out 170 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:33.039 this this very very important neighborhood in this story. 171 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:39.159 Okay, I was gonna say earlier that Paul Downing Senior 172 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.440 and Janet Downing were not from Somerville. They were not 173 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.879 originally from Somerville or from that neighborhood, unlike Gina Mahoney, 174 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:51.000 who is the third has the three generations of Mahony's 175 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:54.039 have grown up in her house. She lives two doors 176 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.799 down on the on the O'Brien's side of the house. 177 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:04.279 There renters. I don't believe they were from Somerville, but 178 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:12.200 they were renters there for about five years. Since they 179 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.799 had a daughter who was married, who had not been 180 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.840 married when they first moved there. They were only renters 181 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.200 there for about five years. 182 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.519 Now, you talk about Gina Mahoney, and you talk about 183 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:30.000 how close Janet was, and so tell us about where 184 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:33.759 Janet was that day that we're talking about, July twenty third, 185 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.960 nineteen ninety five. So you talk about the time Janet 186 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.919 spent with Gina, tell us about what Gina recalls from 187 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:45.759 that afternoon, that many hours that they spent together. What 188 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.840 did they talk about? And tell us a little bit 189 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:49.799 about Gina Mahoney. 190 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:57.840 Gina Mahoney is a wonderful, wonderful person. She's an icon 191 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:01.240 in the neighborhood. Everyone knows her. She's been there forever. 192 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.679 She grew up there as a child. She's known Ed 193 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:10.960 Senior since Ed Senior was smaller. He there. There's at 194 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.879 least ten or fifteen years difference between the the uh 195 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:20.000 uh Gina Mahoney and the O'Brien parents. 196 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.600 And she. 197 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:27.759 Uh she as I said, she lives two doors down 198 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:30.720 from the O'Brien's and she is just a friend to 199 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:34.679 everybody in the neighborhood. Janet came over to her house 200 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.720 very early that morning was a hot, hot, muggy day, 201 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:42.919 and it had been a hot week air conditioning. Air 202 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:47.639 conditioning was not prevalent in the neighborhood. These are old 203 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:53.200 three three decker houses and wooden framed houses, and and 204 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.440 there may people may have an air conditioning unit in 205 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.320 their bedroom, but there was no such thing as central air. 206 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:03.639 And Janet came over in that hot morning and brought 207 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:08.519 her coffee, and she wanted to talk to Gina because 208 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.960 Gina had worked in a union office for a utility 209 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.879 company all of her life and knew a lot about 210 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:19.279 labor relations and about unions and about employee rights. And 211 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:23.080 Janet was concerned because she felt she was being pushed 212 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.720 out of her job at a local health insurance facility 213 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:32.000 where she was a clerical worker, and she wanted Gina 214 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.840 to review her performance reviews and to give her an 215 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:38.720 opinion as to whether or not she should try to 216 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:46.120 fight the potential discharge that she thought was coming, and 217 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:49.360 that's what her initial purpose was when she came over. 218 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:57.559 During the day, Gina's daughter, Danny came in and there 219 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:01.879 was some discussion about her going out that and Janet 220 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:06.519 immediately remarked, you know that she should be careful where 221 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.320 she goes at night, because three months before this, a 222 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:16.639 young girl named Deanna Kremons had been brutally murdered just 223 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:22.000 blocks from where this house is. And no, they had 224 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:26.200 never they still have not charged anybody with that murder, 225 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.360 or they don't know who killed Deanna Cremons. She's been 226 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:34.679 dead now almost twenty three years, so that was much 227 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:40.399 on everybody's mind. And after Danny left the room, Gina 228 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:47.639 explained to to Janet Downing that Danny was friends with 229 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.679 Deanna Kremens, and that was upsetting, you know, And she 230 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.000 was still very upset about that, and at which point 231 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:58.840 Janet said, if anything like that ever happens to me, 232 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:05.120 I want you to promise me, Gina, that you will investigate, investigate, investigate, 233 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.960 And she pounded her fist into her other into the 234 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:13.000 palm of her other hand and saying, investigate, investigate, investigate, 235 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:15.960 and I would never kill myself, and even if it 236 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.320 looks like an accident, promise me that you'll have the 237 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.320 police investigate. And Gina was taken aback and she said, 238 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.360 my god, is something are you afraid of something? Is 239 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:29.399 something happening? And why would you even say that? And 240 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:34.759 she then explained that she was afraid of someone, and 241 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.480 she explained why she was afraid of this person. And 242 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.840 this person happened to be a family member of hers 243 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.159 who she felt was following her and was trying to 244 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.679 terrorize her. And she believed that he had been coming 245 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.559 in and out of her house while she was at 246 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:56.240 work and moving things around, taking her personal diary from 247 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:03.559 the nightstand. Another parrowing incident which had happened maybe several 248 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.200 weeks before that, when she was coming home from work. 249 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.680 The family member who she was afraid of worked for 250 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.319 a cab company, and she was coming down a one 251 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:21.240 way street and suddenly she was surrounded by these cabs 252 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:23.680 and there was one on either side of her, one 253 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.200 in front of her, one behind her, flashing in their 254 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:29.960 bright lights it was dark out, honking their horns and 255 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.720 penning her in and she said she was so scared. 256 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.200 All she could do was look straight ahead and try 257 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.960 not to hit one of the cabs. And it was 258 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:46.400 this family member's cab company. And she was absolutely unhinged 259 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.640 by that incident, and it really really terrified her. And 260 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.720 as I said, another incident, she found a personal diary 261 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.559 missing from her night table. She couldn't figure out what 262 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.759 had happened to it, and she had actually went over 263 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:02.480 to her house to get it to bring it to 264 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.000 Gina's to show her. And then she said that several 265 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:10.039 weeks after the diary went missing, this family member, her 266 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.480 brother in law, she was getting in her car again 267 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.240 from work and he was standing beside her car, and 268 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:20.960 she looked up and she was startled, and he had 269 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.559 the diary in his hand and he handed it to 270 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.880 her and he said he had found it on the 271 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:30.359 street somewhere, you know, that was absolutely not plausible. That 272 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.079 scared her. And then she said to Geena, do you 273 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:38.440 notice do you ever notice cabs here at my house 274 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:43.279 when I'm not home? And Gina said, there's a cab 275 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.920 every day in your driveway. He's here all the time. 276 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.000 Gina knew this brother in law because the brother in 277 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:53.400 law had lived with Janet and her family for a year. 278 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.319 When they became homeless, they moved into Janet's den, and 279 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.000 her sister and her brother in law and their baby 280 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.799 moved into the den and lived with them for a year. 281 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.720 And it was in March of two thousand, I'm sorry, 282 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.519 of nineteen ninety five that Janet had to ask them 283 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:18.039 to leave the house because, according to Janet, the brother 284 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:21.079 in law was dealing drugs to the neighborhood children from 285 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:26.400 her basement and she would not tolerate that. And he 286 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.880 was very angry at being asked to leave. And she 287 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:32.839 had asked him many times to get her keys back, 288 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.559 and he said he didn't have them, that he lost them, 289 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:40.160 but apparently it would appear that he still had them 290 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.160 because he was in her house every day when the 291 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.400 children were at school, and she was gone. Gina saw 292 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.119 him there. So that is a lot of what they talked. 293 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:55.440 About right now with this as well, they also talked 294 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:00.039 about Carrie Anne being a problem because Janet. 295 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:04.680 Had a struggles. Yeah, she had had struggles as a teenager. 296 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.119 She struggled with I think dabbling in drugs. She had 297 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:17.880 some you know, issues of anger and rage and various 298 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:22.359 situations that had caused disruption in the family and caused 299 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.319 Janet to have to call the police several times and 300 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.480 go looking for her several times when she'd run away. 301 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.000 And I believe she was a truant at one point 302 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:38.079 or you know, there had been a difficulty in that situation. 303 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.799 So carry Inn at the time of her mother's murder 304 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.880 was living in a women's shelter with her baby. 305 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.880 Now you talk about Virginia and Barry, and they had 306 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:51.440 been next door for five years, and that day, July 307 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.480 twenty third, nineteen ninety five, they were home. Virginia and 308 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:58.599 her daughter Christine heard a loud boom at eight fifteen 309 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.920 and they knew They noted that the time, sounding like 310 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.880 make you right, that someone was falling down, had fallen 311 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:10.240 four or five steps downstairs. Now, apparently the daughter was alarmed. 312 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.599 They didn't hear janets and typical barking dog. So what 313 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.640 was their reaction other than noting that they heard something, 314 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.400 What did they do? And tell us what happens? What 315 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:29.839 they soon see? Ed O'Brien, Tricia's husband, tell us what 316 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.480 happens after they notice and shortly after what happens involving 317 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:36.400 the senior Ed O'Brien. 318 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.079 Okay, they the Recklers were home all day babysitting for 319 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:47.359 their granddaughter, Christina's daughter, and they had dinner. Came at 320 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.759 six o'clock. They had dinner together. It was Barrie's birthday. 321 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.440 They brought the After dinner, they had spaghetti and meatballs. 322 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.720 After dinner, they brought the baby out to the backyard 323 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.680 to give the baby a pool in a little waiting 324 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:02.680 pool the cool or down. They played out there for 325 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.599 a while and when they came they were going back 326 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:10.839 in the house to have birthday cake and both Christina 327 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:14.440 there was a clock right over the cellar stairway as 328 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.839 you walk in the back door. It was right there. 329 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.119 Both of them noted that it was about ten after eight, 330 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.039 eight fifteen when they walked in the house. They went 331 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:25.559 to the dining room to change the baby, the mother, 332 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.920 Christina and Virginia directly, and the baby went to the 333 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:32.759 dining room, and the dining room wall is the wall 334 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:40.000 that is the party wall to the Downing home where 335 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.960 they were changing the baby, they heard what sounded like 336 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.400 somebody crashing down the stairs or falling down the stairs 337 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:50.279 at Janet Downing's home, and Christina was so alarmed. She said, 338 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.440 oh my god, did you hear that? Should we do something? 339 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.839 And they stopped for a minute to listen, and Virginia said, 340 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.880 you know, their dog barks at everything and not barking, 341 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.319 so I think it's probably okay, or the dog would 342 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:09.039 be barking. So the fact that the dog wasn't barking 343 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:13.279 gave them some reassurance that everything was okay, that it 344 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.960 wasn't anything untoward. But they were very clear, and they 345 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:22.279 both were very clear about what time this happened. And 346 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.599 then they had the birthday cake, they had the celebration, 347 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:31.680 and they packed up the baby and Christina and her 348 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:35.480 husband and the baby left at about nine o'clock and 349 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.200 she Virginia went in to do the dishes. They had 350 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:42.200 heard nothing after that bang, and she noticed when she 351 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.480 turned on the water to do the dishes at nine 352 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.319 o'clock that there was no water pressure. This was a 353 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.880 constant problem that they had in the house, and they'd 354 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:53.079 had for five years. When anybody was using the water 355 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.880 on the downing side of the house, there was no 356 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.839 pressure on the wrectless side of the house. So she 357 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:03.519 said it took five minutes to fill up the spaghetti 358 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.480 pot with sudsy water to let it soak, and then 359 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:09.799 do all the dishes and the cake dishes and all 360 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.519 of that stuff. She said it took a long time 361 00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.599 for her to finish the dishes. It was nine thirty 362 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.160 or after nine thirty by the time she finished the dishes, 363 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.200 and the entire time there was no water pressure in 364 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.359 her house. She went into the living room. She was 365 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:28.880 sitting on the couch. Barry was watching television, and she 366 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.240 was there for she doesn't know how long, she said, 367 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.359 sometime a short time after she finished the dishes and 368 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:39.720 went into the living room, she saw and heard Big 369 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:44.000 At O'Brien as he's known in the neighborhood, run by 370 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.759 their front window and say, Barry, come and help me. 371 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:53.039 There's something wrong. And they both rushed out of the 372 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:57.599 house and followed him into the downing house, and when 373 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:02.759 they got inside the downing house, they saw Janet lying 374 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:09.000 in a pool of blood in her dining room and 375 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:13.680 she appeared to be deceased. And at that just at 376 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:19.240 that moment, Ryan, who was Eddie's best friend and one 377 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.680 of the twin sons, started to come into the house 378 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.880 and his roller blades in Virginia was in her bare 379 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:30.119 feet and she stepped on it. What was a picture 380 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.599 frame that had fallen in the struggle that Janet had had, 381 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:39.359 and she hoped she hadn't cut her foot or broken 382 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.359 the glass, but she knew she had to get Ryan 383 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.720 out of that house, and so she took him outside 384 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:50.039 and ed called the police. 385 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:57.599 Now you talk about, yes, you talk about. Virginia and 386 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:02.640 Barry were never interviewed by Summer police immediately after or 387 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:08.319 state police until you'll before they were going to testify. 388 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:12.759 So now, hello, it is Ryan. And I was on 389 00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:14.519 a flight the other day playing one of my favorite 390 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.599 social spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. 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