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<v Speaker 1>Bill Cunningham, the Great American. Of course, Tuesday afternoon, the

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<v Speaker 1>Tri State weather continues to be iffy. Later on thinks

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<v Speaker 1>you're a little bit better than the Great Bay the weekend.

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<v Speaker 1>But until then, the news of yesterday at Pete Rose

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<v Speaker 1>is passing at the age of eighty three, continues to

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<v Speaker 1>reverberate throughout the Tri State good memories and for some

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<v Speaker 1>bad memories, the upside downs, and the definitive work on

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Rose that I read, which is the best book

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<v Speaker 1>ever written as Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball, written

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<v Speaker 1>by Keith O'Brien who's from our community. And Keith O'Brien,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome again to the Bill Cunningham Show. And first of all,

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<v Speaker 1>Keith O'Brien. Before we got onto the last hours of

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Rose's life, who was Pete Rose?

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<v Speaker 2>No, Pete Rose is like a roar shock test for

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<v Speaker 2>baseball fans, for Americans. You can find whatever story you

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<v Speaker 2>want in him.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he.

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<v Speaker 2>Is, of course a local hero and a baseball icon

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<v Speaker 2>who did get the most out of his talents and

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<v Speaker 2>did scrape and claw his way to the mountaintop. He

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<v Speaker 2>is also a player who sabotaged himself again and again

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<v Speaker 2>and again with his own choices, his own decisions, his

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<v Speaker 2>own addictions. Frankly, Bill and and I think that this

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<v Speaker 2>tangle of lessons, this complicated legacy, is how ultimately he

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<v Speaker 2>will be remembered. I you know, I think Pete Rose

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<v Speaker 2>is in the end a cautionary tale for us all

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<v Speaker 2>and and and and it's really you know, how I

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<v Speaker 2>began to think about him as I was writing the book.

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<v Speaker 2>I I began to think of his story as a

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<v Speaker 2>Greek tragedy that just happened to play out in and

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<v Speaker 2>around an American baseball field. And and that, ultimately, and sadly,

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<v Speaker 2>is is what he is. I think he's a tragic figure.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about the beginnings of Pete Rose at Boldface

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<v Speaker 1>Park and elsewhere, talk about his relate. Many times, a

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<v Speaker 1>boy or a father's relationship is the key element of

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<v Speaker 1>one's life. I know it's colored many elements of my life.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is tell me about Pete's relationship with his dad.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so big. Pete, as he was known Harry Francis Rose,

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<v Speaker 2>was the original star athlete in the Rose family. He

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<v Speaker 2>was a prominent semi pro football player on the West

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<v Speaker 2>Side of Cincinnati in the nineteen thirties, forties, even into

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen fifties, at a time when there was no

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<v Speaker 2>professional football in Cincinnati, no Cincinnati Bengals whatsoever. This was

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<v Speaker 2>as far as Big Pete could go, these workaday games

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<v Speaker 2>on the weekends with other West Side guys, where by

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<v Speaker 2>the way, the players often wagered on the outcome in

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<v Speaker 2>the parking lot of the game. But from the moment

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<v Speaker 2>Little Pete is born in nineteen forty one, the father

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<v Speaker 2>is absolutely fixated on the future athletic success of his

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<v Speaker 2>firstborn son, and he will push Pete. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I did get a chance for my book to interview

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<v Speaker 2>Pete Rose for twenty seven hours, both on the phone

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<v Speaker 2>and in person, and of course we talked about his father,

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<v Speaker 2>and his father's been gone for fifty four years, but

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<v Speaker 2>he still spoke about him with reverence and still credited

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<v Speaker 2>him Pete did for his success. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>notable because Big Pete was a difficult man. He was

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<v Speaker 2>not an easy man. He was certainly not easy on

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<v Speaker 2>his son. But Little Pete did not reject the gospel

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<v Speaker 2>of Big Pete Rose. He embraced it and he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to please him.

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<v Speaker 1>Or the destructive tendencies of Pete Rose in his adult life,

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<v Speaker 1>or the currentoernals of that born in Pete's relationship with Harry.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was certainly born on the West Side.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Gambling was part of the culture in the

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<v Speaker 2>Anderson Ferry neighborhood where Pete Rose grew up in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen forties and fifties. Just down the hill from Pete

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<v Speaker 2>Rose's home on Braddock Street was a little tavern where

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<v Speaker 2>men would gather to wager on dice games and card games.

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<v Speaker 2>The kids themselves, including young Pete Rose, often wagered outside

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<v Speaker 2>the walls of that tavern, you know, pitching pennies against

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<v Speaker 2>the wall. And you know, I do think it's notable

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<v Speaker 2>Bill that, aside from pushing his son to be great

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<v Speaker 2>at sports, there was one other thing that Big Pete loved,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was going to River Downs. And you know, again,

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<v Speaker 2>I did those many hours of interviews with Pete ro

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<v Speaker 2>and one thing he told me that I think he's

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<v Speaker 2>just so stunning. He said that his favorite memories of

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<v Speaker 2>his childhood was not playing baseball bull Based Park, not

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<v Speaker 2>playing football or baseball at Western Hills High School. His

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<v Speaker 2>favorite memories, Pete said, was going to river Downs with

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<v Speaker 2>his dad on the weekend and cheering on his daddy's

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<v Speaker 2>horse to win. And I just think that is so

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<v Speaker 2>so interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>So somehow, and I can recall specifically and writing in

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<v Speaker 1>Lachlan as a kid and a bar and I watched

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<v Speaker 1>the old the fathers from World War two who had

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<v Speaker 1>their cards and it was for amusement purposes only. He

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<v Speaker 1>had a one teamer, at two teamer, a three teamer,

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<v Speaker 1>bet five bucks, bet ten bucks. There was something about

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<v Speaker 1>the addictive personality of Pete Rose that the kernels of

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<v Speaker 1>his ultimate destruction came from river downs and from betting

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<v Speaker 1>and bars, which he learned from his father.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, his gambling was well known in Cincinnati

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<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen sixties and seventies. No one, least of

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<v Speaker 2>all the media or the Cincinnati Reds should have been

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<v Speaker 2>caught by surprise by the revelations in the nineteen eighties

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<v Speaker 2>that you know in my reporting, you know, I scoured

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<v Speaker 2>the newspapers for every mention of Pete Rose. And one

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<v Speaker 2>story I think is so interesting. In the late nineteen sixties,

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<v Speaker 2>Pete has won one batting title. He's about to win

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<v Speaker 2>his seconds. There were complaints letters that people were sending

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<v Speaker 2>in to the Cincinnati Reds because they were seeing Pete

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<v Speaker 2>Rose so often at river Downs, even before games, that

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<v Speaker 2>it concerned people. And Rose, you know, openly admitted that

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<v Speaker 2>he liked to gamble, and he he and he frankly

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<v Speaker 2>stuck his finger in the eye of those complained about it.

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<v Speaker 2>He said in one newspaper article that I found you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what do people want me to do? Stay home and

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<v Speaker 2>the grass.

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<v Speaker 1>Keith O'Brien, author of Charlie Hustle. It was at least

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<v Speaker 1>I watched the gambling at his home on bloom He

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<v Speaker 1>had three TV sets set up on a Sunday afternoon

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<v Speaker 1>and he'd behead the gold sheet Jim Feist reports, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>I went with him to Latonia to bet on horse racing,

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<v Speaker 1>and he kept from us many of the dark aspects

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<v Speaker 1>of his life betting on baseball, because when all this

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<v Speaker 1>arose in the spring of nineteen eighty nine, he enlisted

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<v Speaker 1>me and Bob Trumpy and many others to defend him vociferously,

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<v Speaker 1>and he kept feeding us information as Hawaii elements the

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<v Speaker 1>Dout report were inaccurate and I went on the air

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<v Speaker 1>and Bob Trump, he went on the air repeatedly defending

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Rose against these allegations that he was betting on

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<v Speaker 1>baseball as a player and a manager, which of course

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<v Speaker 1>he did. And you talk about the sixties and seventies.

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<v Speaker 1>I did not have a relationship with him then because

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<v Speaker 1>I was too young. But nonetheless was his behavior of

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<v Speaker 1>your precipitating factor. So why the Redgs did not re

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<v Speaker 1>sign him in seventy eight and let him move on

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<v Speaker 1>to the Phillies. Then the expos.

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<v Speaker 2>Based on my reporting one hundred percent, Yes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy eight, Pete's going to become a free agent

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<v Speaker 2>effectively for the first time. You know, he's reaching the

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<v Speaker 2>end of his career. Many people speculated in nineteen seventy

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<v Speaker 2>eight that he only had a couple of years left.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, he's going to play for eight more years,

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<v Speaker 2>but at the time they thought he just had a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of years left. And and many people wondered why

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<v Speaker 2>Rose didn't come back. And here's the reality of the situation.

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<v Speaker 2>The president of the Cincinnati Reds by nineteen seventy eight

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<v Speaker 2>was Dick Wagner. Dick Wagner and Pete Rose had never

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<v Speaker 2>seen eye to eye. They were different men, cut from

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<v Speaker 2>different cloths. Wagner was a bit of a Puritan and

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a of a militant, you know. P

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<v Speaker 2>Rose was p Rose, and so they didn't get along.

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<v Speaker 2>But sometime that season Bill in the spring of nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy eight, based on my reporting, there is some sort

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<v Speaker 2>of secret meeting in the office of Dick Wagner, And

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<v Speaker 2>at that meeting is Dick Wagner, Pete Rose, and the

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<v Speaker 2>head of security for Major League Baseball. And the discussion

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<v Speaker 2>that day in the spring of nineteen seventy eight is

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<v Speaker 2>about Pete's gambling, his bookies and his many debts to

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<v Speaker 2>these bookies. Baseball and the Reds were worried then, and

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<v Speaker 2>so without question, Wagner was concerned about bringing Rose back,

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<v Speaker 2>as it would leak later in nineteen eighty nine, Wagner

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<v Speaker 2>said apparently that he was worried that someone a bookie

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<v Speaker 2>who had been stiffed by Pete Rose, might come searching

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<v Speaker 2>for his money and take measures that would leave a

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<v Speaker 2>stain on the Cincinnati Reds franchise.

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<v Speaker 1>When he left for the Phillies in seventy nine, I

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<v Speaker 1>would point out he won another World championship with them,

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<v Speaker 1>was the fact that Cincinnati Reds in fact rejected Pete

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<v Speaker 1>Rose was out. A motivating factor in his later success

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<v Speaker 1>with the Phillies none the exposed and then back with

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<v Speaker 1>the Reds was the fact that he was shunned by

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<v Speaker 1>the Reds at that point. A motivating factor in baseball

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<v Speaker 1>for Pete like.

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<v Speaker 2>All great athletes. And again, whether you like him or

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<v Speaker 2>you don't like him, whether you cheered for him in

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<v Speaker 2>the end or didn't, you know, Pete Rose was a

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<v Speaker 2>great athlete. And like all great athletes, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Jordans, the Tiger Woods, the Tom Brady's of the world,

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<v Speaker 2>he found motivation in the little things. And it did

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<v Speaker 2>hurt him that the Reds didn't want him back. He

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<v Speaker 2>would have happily signed for the right amount of money

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<v Speaker 2>a contract with the Cincinnati Reds. And so yeah, he

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<v Speaker 2>goes to Philadelphia intent on proving that he's still Pete Rose,

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<v Speaker 2>He's still a great player. And you know, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>last couple of years in Philly, you know, eighty two

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<v Speaker 2>eighty three, we start to see the downturn, But seventy nine,

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<v Speaker 2>eighty one, he is still putting up, you know, Hall

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<v Speaker 2>of Fame caliber numbers.

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<v Speaker 1>Nanny comes back on. You remember he was wearing the

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<v Speaker 1>stupid Montreal Expos uniform and I think it was hit

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<v Speaker 1>number four thousand at the Riverfront and he belly first

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<v Speaker 1>goes into third base. The crowd goes absolutely nuts. And

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<v Speaker 1>I went into the exposed locker room after the game

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<v Speaker 1>and I talked to him briefly, and he told me

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<v Speaker 1>I want to come back home. I said, I know.

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<v Speaker 1>And the next year, March Shot brought him back home.

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<v Speaker 1>Explain how March Shot brought Pete Rose back to Cincinnati.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, so you know, it happens in August nineteen eighty four.

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<v Speaker 2>Shot is not yet owner, but she is making noise

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<v Speaker 2>and being quite loud among the ownership. She had been

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for years to bring back the old guard Reds,

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<v Speaker 2>the Morgans, the Perezes, the Pete Roses. And in July

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<v Speaker 2>of that summer summer of nineteen eighty four, Dick Wagner

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<v Speaker 2>has now been fired. And who's back in charge of

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<v Speaker 2>the Reds. The old general manager who did love Pete Rose,

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<v Speaker 2>Bob Hausem. And you know, listen, I think Bob Hausm

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<v Speaker 2>should be in the Hall of fame. He was the

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<v Speaker 2>architect of the big Red machine. I think it is

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<v Speaker 2>a travesty that he is not in Cooperstown. But Bob

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<v Speaker 2>Housem made excuses for Pete Rose, as did a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people in the Cincinnati Reds organization in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventies and eighties, and Hausam makes that trade that brings

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<v Speaker 2>Rose back. Initially, in the early discussions, Housm did not

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<v Speaker 2>want Rose to be a quote player manager. He just

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<v Speaker 2>wanted him to be manager. But as he pointed out,

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<v Speaker 2>Bill Pete had now crossed over the four thousand hit milestone.

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<v Speaker 2>He's like one hundred and fifty hits away from breaking

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<v Speaker 2>the all time record. There's no way he's stopping now.

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<v Speaker 2>And so he basically bends Housen's arm into being a

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<v Speaker 2>player manager. And you know, this is a sliding doors

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<v Speaker 2>moment for me, because when Pete comes back to Cincinnati,

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<v Speaker 2>he really gets wrapped up in sort of Cincinnati's underworld

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<v Speaker 2>at that time. And you know, I think, also his

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<v Speaker 2>addictions are getting worse than all of this. His return

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<v Speaker 2>to Cincinnati, his connections in the underworld, his own addictions

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<v Speaker 2>set him up to the ultimate failure. In the late

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighties.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of like a alcoholic taking a job as a bartender.

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<v Speaker 1>He found himself back in the circumstance where he could

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<v Speaker 1>not restrain his addictions. What addictions did Pete Rose have?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think without question he was adicted to gambling.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he himself would have denied that. And in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>only on two occasions did Pete ever admit he had

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of addiction. But in both situations he was

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<v Speaker 2>trying to save himself. The first time he'd admitted he

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<v Speaker 2>had an addiction was in nineteen ninety when he was

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<v Speaker 2>facing a sentence scene for federal tax evasion, and the

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<v Speaker 2>second time was in that self serving, shallow memoir that

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<v Speaker 2>he wrote in two thousand and four, you know, trying

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<v Speaker 2>to get himself reinstated back into baseball. Other than that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he always said that he was not addicted

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<v Speaker 2>to gambling. But you know, I did interviews with everybody

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<v Speaker 2>in his inner circle in the nineteen seventies and eighties,

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<v Speaker 2>three different men who placed Roses bets on baseball, and

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<v Speaker 2>in all of them agreed that Pete was horribly addicted

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<v Speaker 2>to gambling at the time. And it makes sense, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, people always say well, why would he

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<v Speaker 2>do that? Why would he break this rule that he

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<v Speaker 2>would have known would get him banned for life? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the fact of the matter is he knew

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<v Speaker 2>it and he couldn't stop. He couldn't stop himself because

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<v Speaker 2>he was addicted to gambling. And that's not to minimize

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<v Speaker 2>his decisions, but I do think that is the case.

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<v Speaker 1>The book is Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball by

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<v Speaker 1>Keith O'Brien, and there's no better treaties. If you want

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<v Speaker 1>to know the truth about Pete Rose, the good, the bad,

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<v Speaker 1>and the ugly, it's contained in that book. And Keith O'Brien,

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<v Speaker 1>I could spend hours and hours with you. We've only

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<v Speaker 1>scratched the surface. But if you're continue to be interested

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<v Speaker 1>as a listener and a fan, you have to get

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<v Speaker 1>the book and it lays it all out. New York

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<v Speaker 1>Times bestseller Keith O'Brien, and Keith's so many more stories,

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<v Speaker 1>so little time in life. And I know that Pete's

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<v Speaker 1>closest friends now are remembering the good times and not

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<v Speaker 1>the bad. I think the good times often live after

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<v Speaker 1>to remand the bad times need to be buried, and

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<v Speaker 1>your book says it all and does it all, and

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<v Speaker 1>you do it with class. Keith O'Brien, once again, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show.

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<v Speaker 2>Keith, thank you, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Bill. All right, let's continue, all right, My comments coming

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<v Speaker 1>up next, plus later on more about Pete Rose's rise

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<v Speaker 1>and fall here in Cincinnati at your home of the Reds,

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<v Speaker 1>the Home of Pete Rose. News Radio seven hundred WLW