Speaker 1: Bill Cunningham, the Great American. Of course, Tuesday afternoon, the
Speaker 1: Tri State weather continues to be iffy. Later on thinks
Speaker 1: you're a little bit better than the Great Bay the weekend.
Speaker 1: But until then, the news of yesterday at Pete Rose
Speaker 1: is passing at the age of eighty three, continues to
Speaker 1: reverberate throughout the Tri State good memories and for some
Speaker 1: bad memories, the upside downs, and the definitive work on
Speaker 1: Pete Rose that I read, which is the best book
Speaker 1: ever written as Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of
Speaker 1: Pete Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball, written
Speaker 1: by Keith O'Brien who's from our community. And Keith O'Brien,
Speaker 1: welcome again to the Bill Cunningham Show. And first of all,
Speaker 1: Keith O'Brien. Before we got onto the last hours of
Speaker 1: Pete Rose's life, who was Pete Rose?
Speaker 2: No, Pete Rose is like a roar shock test for
Speaker 2: baseball fans, for Americans. You can find whatever story you
Speaker 2: want in him.
Speaker 1: You know, he.
Speaker 2: Is, of course a local hero and a baseball icon
Speaker 2: who did get the most out of his talents and
Speaker 2: did scrape and claw his way to the mountaintop. He
Speaker 2: is also a player who sabotaged himself again and again
Speaker 2: and again with his own choices, his own decisions, his
Speaker 2: own addictions. Frankly, Bill and and I think that this
Speaker 2: tangle of lessons, this complicated legacy, is how ultimately he
Speaker 2: will be remembered. I you know, I think Pete Rose
Speaker 2: is in the end a cautionary tale for us all
Speaker 2: and and and and it's really you know, how I
Speaker 2: began to think about him as I was writing the book.
Speaker 2: I I began to think of his story as a
Speaker 2: Greek tragedy that just happened to play out in and
Speaker 2: around an American baseball field. And and that, ultimately, and sadly,
Speaker 2: is is what he is. I think he's a tragic figure.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the beginnings of Pete Rose at Boldface
Speaker 1: Park and elsewhere, talk about his relate. Many times, a
Speaker 1: boy or a father's relationship is the key element of
Speaker 1: one's life. I know it's colored many elements of my life.
Speaker 1: And that is tell me about Pete's relationship with his dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so big. Pete, as he was known Harry Francis Rose,
Speaker 2: was the original star athlete in the Rose family. He
Speaker 2: was a prominent semi pro football player on the West
Speaker 2: Side of Cincinnati in the nineteen thirties, forties, even into
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties, at a time when there was no
Speaker 2: professional football in Cincinnati, no Cincinnati Bengals whatsoever. This was
Speaker 2: as far as Big Pete could go, these workaday games
Speaker 2: on the weekends with other West Side guys, where by
Speaker 2: the way, the players often wagered on the outcome in
Speaker 2: the parking lot of the game. But from the moment
Speaker 2: Little Pete is born in nineteen forty one, the father
Speaker 2: is absolutely fixated on the future athletic success of his
Speaker 2: firstborn son, and he will push Pete. And you know,
Speaker 2: I did get a chance for my book to interview
Speaker 2: Pete Rose for twenty seven hours, both on the phone
Speaker 2: and in person, and of course we talked about his father,
Speaker 2: and his father's been gone for fifty four years, but
Speaker 2: he still spoke about him with reverence and still credited
Speaker 2: him Pete did for his success. And I think that's
Speaker 2: notable because Big Pete was a difficult man. He was
Speaker 2: not an easy man. He was certainly not easy on
Speaker 2: his son. But Little Pete did not reject the gospel
Speaker 2: of Big Pete Rose. He embraced it and he wanted
Speaker 2: to please him.
Speaker 1: Or the destructive tendencies of Pete Rose in his adult life,
Speaker 1: or the currentoernals of that born in Pete's relationship with Harry.
Speaker 2: I think it was certainly born on the West Side.
Speaker 2: You know, Gambling was part of the culture in the
Speaker 2: Anderson Ferry neighborhood where Pete Rose grew up in the
Speaker 2: nineteen forties and fifties. Just down the hill from Pete
Speaker 2: Rose's home on Braddock Street was a little tavern where
Speaker 2: men would gather to wager on dice games and card games.
Speaker 2: The kids themselves, including young Pete Rose, often wagered outside
Speaker 2: the walls of that tavern, you know, pitching pennies against
Speaker 2: the wall. And you know, I do think it's notable
Speaker 2: Bill that, aside from pushing his son to be great
Speaker 2: at sports, there was one other thing that Big Pete loved,
Speaker 2: and that was going to River Downs. And you know, again,
Speaker 2: I did those many hours of interviews with Pete ro
Speaker 2: and one thing he told me that I think he's
Speaker 2: just so stunning. He said that his favorite memories of
Speaker 2: his childhood was not playing baseball bull Based Park, not
Speaker 2: playing football or baseball at Western Hills High School. His
Speaker 2: favorite memories, Pete said, was going to river Downs with
Speaker 2: his dad on the weekend and cheering on his daddy's
Speaker 2: horse to win. And I just think that is so
Speaker 2: so interesting.
Speaker 1: So somehow, and I can recall specifically and writing in
Speaker 1: Lachlan as a kid and a bar and I watched
Speaker 1: the old the fathers from World War two who had
Speaker 1: their cards and it was for amusement purposes only. He
Speaker 1: had a one teamer, at two teamer, a three teamer,
Speaker 1: bet five bucks, bet ten bucks. There was something about
Speaker 1: the addictive personality of Pete Rose that the kernels of
Speaker 1: his ultimate destruction came from river downs and from betting
Speaker 1: and bars, which he learned from his father.
Speaker 2: And you know, his gambling was well known in Cincinnati
Speaker 2: in the nineteen sixties and seventies. No one, least of
Speaker 2: all the media or the Cincinnati Reds should have been
Speaker 2: caught by surprise by the revelations in the nineteen eighties
Speaker 2: that you know in my reporting, you know, I scoured
Speaker 2: the newspapers for every mention of Pete Rose. And one
Speaker 2: story I think is so interesting. In the late nineteen sixties,
Speaker 2: Pete has won one batting title. He's about to win
Speaker 2: his seconds. There were complaints letters that people were sending
Speaker 2: in to the Cincinnati Reds because they were seeing Pete
Speaker 2: Rose so often at river Downs, even before games, that
Speaker 2: it concerned people. And Rose, you know, openly admitted that
Speaker 2: he liked to gamble, and he he and he frankly
Speaker 2: stuck his finger in the eye of those complained about it.
Speaker 2: He said in one newspaper article that I found you know,
Speaker 2: what do people want me to do? Stay home and
Speaker 2: the grass.
Speaker 1: Keith O'Brien, author of Charlie Hustle. It was at least
Speaker 1: I watched the gambling at his home on bloom He
Speaker 1: had three TV sets set up on a Sunday afternoon
Speaker 1: and he'd behead the gold sheet Jim Feist reports, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I went with him to Latonia to bet on horse racing,
Speaker 1: and he kept from us many of the dark aspects
Speaker 1: of his life betting on baseball, because when all this
Speaker 1: arose in the spring of nineteen eighty nine, he enlisted
Speaker 1: me and Bob Trumpy and many others to defend him vociferously,
Speaker 1: and he kept feeding us information as Hawaii elements the
Speaker 1: Dout report were inaccurate and I went on the air
Speaker 1: and Bob Trump, he went on the air repeatedly defending
Speaker 1: Pete Rose against these allegations that he was betting on
Speaker 1: baseball as a player and a manager, which of course
Speaker 1: he did. And you talk about the sixties and seventies.
Speaker 1: I did not have a relationship with him then because
Speaker 1: I was too young. But nonetheless was his behavior of
Speaker 1: your precipitating factor. So why the Redgs did not re
Speaker 1: sign him in seventy eight and let him move on
Speaker 1: to the Phillies. Then the expos.
Speaker 2: Based on my reporting one hundred percent, Yes, you know,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, Pete's going to become a free agent
Speaker 2: effectively for the first time. You know, he's reaching the
Speaker 2: end of his career. Many people speculated in nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: eight that he only had a couple of years left.
Speaker 2: Of course, he's going to play for eight more years,
Speaker 2: but at the time they thought he just had a
Speaker 2: couple of years left. And and many people wondered why
Speaker 2: Rose didn't come back. And here's the reality of the situation.
Speaker 2: The president of the Cincinnati Reds by nineteen seventy eight
Speaker 2: was Dick Wagner. Dick Wagner and Pete Rose had never
Speaker 2: seen eye to eye. They were different men, cut from
Speaker 2: different cloths. Wagner was a bit of a Puritan and
Speaker 2: a bit of a of a militant, you know. P
Speaker 2: Rose was p Rose, and so they didn't get along.
Speaker 2: But sometime that season Bill in the spring of nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy eight, based on my reporting, there is some sort
Speaker 2: of secret meeting in the office of Dick Wagner, And
Speaker 2: at that meeting is Dick Wagner, Pete Rose, and the
Speaker 2: head of security for Major League Baseball. And the discussion
Speaker 2: that day in the spring of nineteen seventy eight is
Speaker 2: about Pete's gambling, his bookies and his many debts to
Speaker 2: these bookies. Baseball and the Reds were worried then, and
Speaker 2: so without question, Wagner was concerned about bringing Rose back,
Speaker 2: as it would leak later in nineteen eighty nine, Wagner
Speaker 2: said apparently that he was worried that someone a bookie
Speaker 2: who had been stiffed by Pete Rose, might come searching
Speaker 2: for his money and take measures that would leave a
Speaker 2: stain on the Cincinnati Reds franchise.
Speaker 1: When he left for the Phillies in seventy nine, I
Speaker 1: would point out he won another World championship with them,
Speaker 1: was the fact that Cincinnati Reds in fact rejected Pete
Speaker 1: Rose was out. A motivating factor in his later success
Speaker 1: with the Phillies none the exposed and then back with
Speaker 1: the Reds was the fact that he was shunned by
Speaker 1: the Reds at that point. A motivating factor in baseball
Speaker 1: for Pete like.
Speaker 2: All great athletes. And again, whether you like him or
Speaker 2: you don't like him, whether you cheered for him in
Speaker 2: the end or didn't, you know, Pete Rose was a
Speaker 2: great athlete. And like all great athletes, you know, the
Speaker 2: Michael Jordans, the Tiger Woods, the Tom Brady's of the world,
Speaker 2: he found motivation in the little things. And it did
Speaker 2: hurt him that the Reds didn't want him back. He
Speaker 2: would have happily signed for the right amount of money
Speaker 2: a contract with the Cincinnati Reds. And so yeah, he
Speaker 2: goes to Philadelphia intent on proving that he's still Pete Rose,
Speaker 2: He's still a great player. And you know, you know,
Speaker 2: last couple of years in Philly, you know, eighty two
Speaker 2: eighty three, we start to see the downturn, But seventy nine,
Speaker 2: eighty one, he is still putting up, you know, Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame caliber numbers.
Speaker 1: Nanny comes back on. You remember he was wearing the
Speaker 1: stupid Montreal Expos uniform and I think it was hit
Speaker 1: number four thousand at the Riverfront and he belly first
Speaker 1: goes into third base. The crowd goes absolutely nuts. And
Speaker 1: I went into the exposed locker room after the game
Speaker 1: and I talked to him briefly, and he told me
Speaker 1: I want to come back home. I said, I know.
Speaker 1: And the next year, March Shot brought him back home.
Speaker 1: Explain how March Shot brought Pete Rose back to Cincinnati.
Speaker 2: Well, so you know, it happens in August nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2: Shot is not yet owner, but she is making noise
Speaker 2: and being quite loud among the ownership. She had been
Speaker 2: pushing for years to bring back the old guard Reds,
Speaker 2: the Morgans, the Perezes, the Pete Roses. And in July
Speaker 2: of that summer summer of nineteen eighty four, Dick Wagner
Speaker 2: has now been fired. And who's back in charge of
Speaker 2: the Reds. The old general manager who did love Pete Rose,
Speaker 2: Bob Hausem. And you know, listen, I think Bob Hausm
Speaker 2: should be in the Hall of fame. He was the
Speaker 2: architect of the big Red machine. I think it is
Speaker 2: a travesty that he is not in Cooperstown. But Bob
Speaker 2: Housem made excuses for Pete Rose, as did a lot
Speaker 2: of people in the Cincinnati Reds organization in the nineteen
Speaker 2: seventies and eighties, and Hausam makes that trade that brings
Speaker 2: Rose back. Initially, in the early discussions, Housm did not
Speaker 2: want Rose to be a quote player manager. He just
Speaker 2: wanted him to be manager. But as he pointed out,
Speaker 2: Bill Pete had now crossed over the four thousand hit milestone.
Speaker 2: He's like one hundred and fifty hits away from breaking
Speaker 2: the all time record. There's no way he's stopping now.
Speaker 2: And so he basically bends Housen's arm into being a
Speaker 2: player manager. And you know, this is a sliding doors
Speaker 2: moment for me, because when Pete comes back to Cincinnati,
Speaker 2: he really gets wrapped up in sort of Cincinnati's underworld
Speaker 2: at that time. And you know, I think, also his
Speaker 2: addictions are getting worse than all of this. His return
Speaker 2: to Cincinnati, his connections in the underworld, his own addictions
Speaker 2: set him up to the ultimate failure. In the late
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1: Kind of like a alcoholic taking a job as a bartender.
Speaker 1: He found himself back in the circumstance where he could
Speaker 1: not restrain his addictions. What addictions did Pete Rose have?
Speaker 2: Well, I think without question he was adicted to gambling.
Speaker 2: You know, he himself would have denied that. And in fact,
Speaker 2: only on two occasions did Pete ever admit he had
Speaker 2: some kind of addiction. But in both situations he was
Speaker 2: trying to save himself. The first time he'd admitted he
Speaker 2: had an addiction was in nineteen ninety when he was
Speaker 2: facing a sentence scene for federal tax evasion, and the
Speaker 2: second time was in that self serving, shallow memoir that
Speaker 2: he wrote in two thousand and four, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to get himself reinstated back into baseball. Other than that,
Speaker 2: you know, he always said that he was not addicted
Speaker 2: to gambling. But you know, I did interviews with everybody
Speaker 2: in his inner circle in the nineteen seventies and eighties,
Speaker 2: three different men who placed Roses bets on baseball, and
Speaker 2: in all of them agreed that Pete was horribly addicted
Speaker 2: to gambling at the time. And it makes sense, you know,
Speaker 2: because you know, people always say well, why would he
Speaker 2: do that? Why would he break this rule that he
Speaker 2: would have known would get him banned for life? Well,
Speaker 2: I think the fact of the matter is he knew
Speaker 2: it and he couldn't stop. He couldn't stop himself because
Speaker 2: he was addicted to gambling. And that's not to minimize
Speaker 2: his decisions, but I do think that is the case.
Speaker 1: The book is Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of
Speaker 1: Pete Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball by
Speaker 1: Keith O'Brien, and there's no better treaties. If you want
Speaker 1: to know the truth about Pete Rose, the good, the bad,
Speaker 1: and the ugly, it's contained in that book. And Keith O'Brien,
Speaker 1: I could spend hours and hours with you. We've only
Speaker 1: scratched the surface. But if you're continue to be interested
Speaker 1: as a listener and a fan, you have to get
Speaker 1: the book and it lays it all out. New York
Speaker 1: Times bestseller Keith O'Brien, and Keith's so many more stories,
Speaker 1: so little time in life. And I know that Pete's
Speaker 1: closest friends now are remembering the good times and not
Speaker 1: the bad. I think the good times often live after
Speaker 1: to remand the bad times need to be buried, and
Speaker 1: your book says it all and does it all, and
Speaker 1: you do it with class. Keith O'Brien, once again, thank
Speaker 1: you for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show.
Speaker 2: Keith, thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Bill. All right, let's continue, all right, My comments coming
Speaker 1: up next, plus later on more about Pete Rose's rise
Speaker 1: and fall here in Cincinnati at your home of the Reds,
Speaker 1: the Home of Pete Rose. News Radio seven hundred WLW