WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast. 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.240 Hey there, Blake, how are you doing? 3 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.439 I'm cold, Ben, because I don't have a Monster Talk 4 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:11.039 T shirt. 5 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:13.400 You know, you know what would be really cool, Blake, 6 00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:16.199 would be if there was a Talk T shirt. Yes, 7 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:20.920 that's just That's just what I was thinking. Why why 8 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.760 don't we have somebody designed a T shirt? 9 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:24.079 Blake? 10 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:25.839 But Ben, who could we ask? 11 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:26.600 Hmm? 12 00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:31.480 I don't know. Let me think, don don Hey, I 13 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:34.439 have an idea, Blake. Why don't we hold a contest 14 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:37.359 and we'll have our listeners, many of whom are very 15 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:42.320 creative and frankly much better artists and are smarter than 16 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:46.079 we are, and ask them to submit some designs for 17 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:49.200 our super cool, awesome Monster Talk T shirt. 18 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:53.079 I like this idea, but how can we properly incentivize 19 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:54.799 our listeners to participate? 20 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:58.920 That's a great question, Blake. Let me think, Hey, I 21 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:02.920 know me. We could offer prizes for first, second, and 22 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:06.959 third place designs, and of course, the grand prize, the 23 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.760 best one, will be put on a Monster Talk T shirt. 24 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:11.040 What do you think of that, Blake? 25 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:16.280 I think we should use the losers too. 26 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.040 I think that I think that's great idea. Well, why 27 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:23.439 don't we do this? Why don't we have an official 28 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:28.200 monster Talk T shirt contest challenge Thingy will have like 29 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:30.319 the deadline be the end of the year. 30 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:35.519 The twenty twelve Monster Dog T Shirt Contest Thingy. Submit 31 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:39.799 your designs to contest at monsterdog dot org. Deadline for 32 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.239 inch Fury December thirty first, twenty eleven. Winners to be 33 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:54.959 selected in January. 34 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:59.000 Chances are they're not what you think they are. All 35 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.879 your life, you've been shown images of genies as powerful 36 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:06.000 magical entities which have, through one method or another, been 37 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:09.120 trapped in a lamp or a ring, and are forced 38 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:11.680 to do the bidding of anyone who possesses such items. 39 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.360 But those so called genies have about as much to 40 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.800 do with traditional Gin of Arabic folklore as Casper the 41 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.039 friendly ghost has to do with the Shining. Here's the 42 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:25.400 most important difference between the genie from pop culture and 43 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:29.879 the creatures called gin. Many people all over the world 44 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.280 believe that gin are real, often malevolent creatures, which are 45 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:38.360 responsible for hauntings and possession. They fit the cultural niche 46 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.599 that ghosts and demons fill in Western culture, and are 47 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:43.879 generally not at all the sort of creature you'd want 48 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:46.599 to let out of a bottle or encounter in a 49 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:51.280 desolate valley or an abandoned home. And while they inspired 50 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.599 I Dream of Genie and Disney's Aladdin, they also fuel 51 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:57.919 the writings of HP Lovecraft and Robert E. 52 00:02:58.039 --> 00:02:58.439 Howard. 53 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.280 So sit back and prepare to uncork a bottle of 54 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:12.000 gin on this episode of Monster Talk. It's actually quite 55 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:17.520 unlike anything we've ever seen before. A giant, very creature 56 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:19.240 Part eight, part of mat. 57 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:23.680 In Luckness, a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake 58 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.280 in the Highlands of Scotland. It's a creature known as 59 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:50.759 the Luckness Monster. Monster tal. 60 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.319 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 61 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.759 Blake Smith, and together with Ben Radford, we're going to 62 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.719 chat with author Robert Lebling about his new book, Legends 63 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:05.199 of the Fire Spirits. It's a very comprehensive book about 64 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:09.360 the folklore surrounding creatures known as jin. Of course, Ben 65 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:12.400 and I are skeptics, and Lebling's book presents the legends, 66 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.960 folklore and modern anecdotes from a neutral stance. He's living 67 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.040 in Saudi Arabia in a culture where these entities are 68 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:21.680 not only believed by the public, but also endorsed by 69 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:25.839 the Koran and by Islam. Listeners to Monstertog will recognize 70 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.120 that I have an affinity for tales of the paranormal 71 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.439 and the supernatural, and so do my co hosts. If 72 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:33.160 you're into that sort of thing, I think you'll find 73 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.720 Lebling's book a fascinating read. We don't have him on 74 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.480 to debate the existence of these entities, but to talk 75 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:42.240 about the legends. Some of the tales of gen will 76 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.560 describe phenomena similar to a haunting, others to possession, yet 77 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:49.040 others to fairy tales and folk tales, and even alien 78 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:53.439 abduction stories. All of these classes of phenomena are familiar 79 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:57.600 to skeptical paranormal enthusiasts, but it's fascinating to hear these 80 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:02.040 same kinds of experiences atributed to an entirely different entity. 81 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:05.360 I find that interesting as a skeptic and as an 82 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:09.000 enthusiast of anthropology and psychology. I suspect you will too 83 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.439 if you give his book a read. Let's get to 84 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:13.360 our interview with Robert Leveling. 85 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:15.600 Right now more obstrutal. 86 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.079 What led you to become interested in GEN? 87 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.879 I suppose my interest in the Middle East probably led 88 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:31.040 to that. I'm interested in anthropology and did some study 89 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:36.800 in college and started to hear stories over here in 90 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:41.120 Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region, and I 91 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:45.240 became interested in finding out what was behind the stories. 92 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.560 So I did started to research into it, and I've 93 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:53.439 got access to a very good library of old material 94 00:05:53.519 --> 00:06:00.600 and new material, and from there I decided I start 95 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:05.040 my own Yahoo group and start chatting with people about it, 96 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:09.680 and before you know it, the Gin Group was born, 97 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.519 and from that I started collecting material. Over the years. 98 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.720 It's been still it goes back to the nineteen nineties, 99 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:21.519 because I've been here since ninety four in Saudi Arabia 100 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:26.759 and it's now it's just one of those things that 101 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.519 it's kind of hard to shake. So I've been you know. 102 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.480 I decided eventually the material I collected was worth putting 103 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:39.319 into a book, and after working on it through a 104 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:44.560 number of iterations with my editor at ib Taurus, we 105 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.759 finally found something that we thought would work, a narrative history, 106 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:53.759 and so that's where we are. We've told what we 107 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:58.480 think is the origins and the and the scope of 108 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:01.639 the Gin phenomenon around the world world, primarily in the 109 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:08.360 Muslim and Arabic speaking world. But I don't know. There's more. 110 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:11.560 I've collected so much material over the years about other 111 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:18.800 supernatural phenomena, spirit creatures and the like, that may spin 112 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:22.439 those into another book at another time, drawing and discussing 113 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:28.600 the parallels between the genie or the Gin phenomenon and 114 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:33.199 those of other countries, for example, a Celtic tradition the 115 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.240 elves and fairies and so forth, Yeah, and so forth. 116 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:39.560 I was gonna say, you know, I've read your book, 117 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:41.920 of course, Legends of the Fire Spirits, and I have 118 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.199 to say I really enjoyed it. It just it had 119 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:49.319 such good, rich historical context, in anthropological context. It was 120 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:54.120 fascinating to me to read an account of Gin that 121 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:57.079 was in depth and scholarly, because a lot of the 122 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.319 stuff that I'd read about because you know, this is 123 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.279 one of my just and so much of with just 124 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:06.120 sort of superficial, you know, mentions in passing. And I 125 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.800 was struck by the research that that went into it. Now, 126 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:11.160 can you talk a little bit about that research. 127 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:18.519 Well, I started collecting stories and and talking to people 128 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:23.360 in Saudi Arabia, particularly about what how they perceived the Gin. 129 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:29.680 It's a question of perception clearly, and and of of explanation. 130 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:34.960 How do you explain phenomena that that are puzzling and 131 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:40.519 perhaps don't fit into your into the normal experiences of 132 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:45.600 your life. The people of the Middle East and the 133 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:50.679 greater Islamic world believe firmly that gin are real creatures. 134 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:58.000 They are this this comes primarily from from the the 135 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:03.559 passages in the Quran, the Holy Book of Islam, that 136 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:11.879 that verify the existence of genies for Muslims. And you know, 137 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.080 for us in the West, it's kind of it's an 138 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:18.879 alien concept, but there were things about it that really 139 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:22.159 it seems similar to phenomena that I was seeing in 140 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:28.480 other countries. And I was also interested in comparing how 141 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:34.200 the how the Gin behaved with with the alien phenomenon 142 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:40.519 in the United States, alien abductions and so forth. In 143 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:42.799 the Middle East, the Gin do the same kind of 144 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:48.919 abducting as as aliens in Western culture are said to do. 145 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.279 And so I thought there were there might be some 146 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.519 parallels here and things worth exploring. And I started digging 147 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:59.440 deeper into the material, and before you knew it, I'd 148 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:03.480 come up with a plan, and I put it down 149 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:08.480 on paper and moved from there The people that I 150 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:12.320 know in Saudi Arabia who believe in the Gin phenomenon 151 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:19.759 are very reasonable, ordinary folk, and the fact that they 152 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:24.080 take this so seriously indicates to me that I should 153 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:28.039 at least try to understand where they're coming from. And 154 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:30.919 that's what the book is about, an attempt to understand 155 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:36.679 how people can believe in a phenomenon like this, and 156 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:40.080 what does it mean for them? And does it have 157 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:44.879 more meaning than simply a fireside story. Is it more 158 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:49.519 than something to scare kids with in the evenings, or 159 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.399 is there something to it that is deeply embedded in 160 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.399 human nature? And I think there is, I really do. 161 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:04.120 I think that the belief in in Gin here. I've 162 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:09.159 compared it among the number of societies and in some cases, 163 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:11.759 I mean, it takes a while to get into the 164 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.919 Gin phenomenon. But there are evil Gin and good Gin. 165 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:20.360 There are the Gin r a creature of a sentient 166 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:25.559 being with the ability to distinguish right from wrong, the 167 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:32.039 ability to act on free will and make choices. And 168 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:37.000 some of them end up being believers in God or 169 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:44.440 a higher power, can be any religion. Others reject religion, 170 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:49.840 and yet they're inextricably linked with it because they associate 171 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:56.519 themselves with the devil, and you have the evil gin 172 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:02.679 are they fall into several categories. You've got the effrite, well, 173 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.879 actually you got a lesser category called the Chatans, which 174 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.399 simply means the Satans like demons. Then they're the Afrite, 175 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.960 which are are often larger and more frightening than the Chatans. 176 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.440 And then you have the Marids, which are the largest 177 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:23.879 and most powerful of all gin. And all these beliefs 178 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.600 in evil gins are balanced by a belief that there 179 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:33.879 are good gin. Some of them become partners of people 180 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:38.600 and protect them. Some of them protect houses like the 181 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:43.639 old and the old Roman concept of the genii or 182 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:50.600 the genius household deity. And so we have to have 183 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.679 all these kinds of things going on at the same time, 184 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:57.080 and it's it's kind of interesting to try and separate 185 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.000 them out and figure out, you know, why somebody belie 186 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.639 use in this sort of thing, and why and to 187 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.200 what extent it prevails. I mean, you'll find some people 188 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.600 who will tell you that they think this is these 189 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.519 are all fairy stories, or or they're like that they're 190 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:17.240 not really they're not really true. And then yet you 191 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.039 will find these same people are uh, will be frightened 192 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:23.639 to go into an empty house for fear of disturbing 193 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:29.000 the Gin. And and also they'll use you use religious 194 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:34.399 formulas to protect them from the Gin under many, many circumstances. 195 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.679 So how seriously are the Gin taken? I mean, as 196 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.480 you said, some people, some people believe in them, and 197 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:42.759 others don't. Is it is it a case of where 198 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.200 all good Muslims necessarily believe in the existence of Gin, 199 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:49.120 or is it a case for example, Well, for example, 200 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.399 I mean that one analogy that I got from the 201 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.279 book was in some ways you might compare Gin to 202 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.559 demons or angels, probably demons in the Bible, where you know, 203 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.879 not all Christians necess already literally believe in the existence 204 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:03.279 of angels, but many of them do. 205 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:08.600 Yeah, exactly, now, this is right. If you talk to 206 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:13.480 a westernized a Muslim in this part of the world, 207 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:18.320 they'll often tell you that there may perhaps be a 208 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:24.000 metaphorical explanation for the Gin. There are some interpretations that 209 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:30.279 say GIN could be simply bad people or unusual people. 210 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:37.559 There are some who feel that who don't accept the 211 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.720 concept at all. I mean, you have a complete spectrum 212 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.919 of people. The more religious the people are, the more 213 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:47.559 they tend to believe in it. The more traditional they are, 214 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.519 the more they tend to believe in it. And we 215 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:52.960 have a lot of traditional people here in Saudi Arabia, 216 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:58.120 and they tend to tend to accept it. In fact, 217 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.960 the government of Saudi Arabia is very very opposed to 218 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:07.200 the the notion of black magic, which would be the 219 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:10.200 kind of sorcery or magic that summons gin to do 220 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:14.399 your bidding. That can be a criminal offense here. In fact, 221 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.080 in some cases you can be sentenced to death for it, 222 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.519 which indicates that they believe it's not simply a case 223 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:25.679 of fraud but of a person trying to defraud someone 224 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.799 by by claiming that they have access to the gin 225 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.559 and can tap their powers, but rather that they that 226 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.559 indeed it is a real threat and it's a threat 227 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:39.000 to goodness and really disbelief. 228 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:44.600 So so how is how is the the Arabian gin 229 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:47.799 concept different from like the Western eyes version of the 230 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:48.679 genie in the bottle? 231 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:54.480 Well, that's that's pretty much entertainment. And you do find 232 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.080 that in the culture here. If you go back to 233 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.799 the Arabian Nights tales, there are a number of those there. 234 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:05.879 There are genies and bottles, but they're only a small 235 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:11.799 it's a small, uh small fraction of of Gin belief, 236 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.200 and it really is is purely for entertainment. The storytellers 237 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:20.960 will tell stories about Gin who have have these powers 238 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.639 and that you can you can call on them to 239 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:27.759 do these do things for you. But in terms of 240 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.080 day to day life, nobody here expects to come across 241 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.720 a bottle with a genie in it on the beach. 242 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.639 What they what they think will happen, is that they 243 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:46.240 might encounter Gin in in remote places, places that are 244 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:55.879 desolate ruins, archaeological ruins for example, uh sewers, dark places, caves. 245 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:58.639 You mentioned that. I that was actually one of my 246 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:03.960 questions was it seems like they inhabit abandoned places in 247 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.640 that way, in in that particular way, they sort of 248 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.839 fulfill the same niche as ghosts do here in the US. 249 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:17.640 For people, it's a haunted thing of it haunts ruined places. 250 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.359 Is there more belief in Gin than ghosts in Saudi 251 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.400 Arabia or they don't. 252 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.480 There isn't a belief in ghosts as we know it, Okay, 253 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.200 ghosts being spirits of the dead. At least I haven't 254 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.119 come across it. Anytime someone will tell you that an 255 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:39.079 abandoned old building is haunted, it's haunted by gin. And 256 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.640 gin are not considered to be the spirits of the dead. 257 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:48.839 They are a separate species of being, an intelligent being 258 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.400 that lives on earth with man. In fact, lives in 259 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:58.680 other places as well, perhaps in another dimension. Perhaps since 260 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:03.920 they're invisible frequently, it's hard to tell where they where 261 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.000 they hang out, but there are stories about about that. 262 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:14.200 But the Gin have the ability to pass from invisibility 263 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:19.839 to visibility, and they do that through means that though 264 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:26.079 we can't explain, and there's some people I think my 265 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:30.440 book indicates some people who tried to speculate as to 266 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:35.640 whether perhaps the Gin are visible in spectra that we 267 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:40.880 can't see the infrared or the ultra violet. Infrared generally 268 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.440 for gin and ultra violet for angels. Is the way 269 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:45.759 that people in this part of the world look at it. 270 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:50.559 Anyone who tries to find a scientific explanation for these creatures. 271 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:58.039 But they live, they guard treasure, they live in abandoned places. 272 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:01.359 They and yet at the same time, the Gena are 273 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:05.640 known as as a tribal people. They are said to 274 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:12.960 live to have families and like human beings and tribal 275 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:18.160 groups clans. There have been stories of them doing the 276 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:24.160 pilgrimage to Mecca by camel caravan, people encountering them in 277 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:28.960 the desert, So there are they have a whole lot 278 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:34.039 of a whole range of actions and experiences that they 279 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.000 go a little bit beyond haunting. They also seem to 280 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:44.559 have the ability to possess human beings, much as a 281 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:50.000 demon would in the Western tradition, the exorcist kind of thing. 282 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:54.599 And there are people in this country and in others 283 00:19:54.920 --> 00:20:02.720 in the area, religiously oriented people, religious scholars and so forth, 284 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:11.759 who specialize in helping to exercise demons from afflicted people. 285 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:17.440 This gets into the area of psychology, of course, and 286 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:21.240 some people. There are cases of people who have gone 287 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:27.799 through psychiatric treatment without benefit and then went to a 288 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:33.240 religious leader and were exercised and were cured. Of course, 289 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.000 there are probably many cases where that doesn't happen, but 290 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.200 there are people will do talk about that. So you 291 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:48.880 have possession as one another aspect, and well you have 292 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:51.079 a whole lot of things. The origin of gin are 293 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.720 getting go way back. I mean, this is not something 294 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:58.319 that started with Islam, even though the Islamic faith confirmed 295 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.200 the existence of gen as. The people here would say 296 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:05.839 they go back at least as far as the ancient Sumerians, 297 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:11.519 and and there were there were a number of Oh, 298 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.000 I guess they were. One would consider them early deities, 299 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:22.599 perhaps nature spirits, wind gods and that sort of thing 300 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:29.160 who eventually became gin. And you hear about the the 301 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:33.279 demon of the Exorcist the movie and and the book 302 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:40.880 was that is thought to be an early gin form. 303 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:46.240 He he comes out of the basu uh is comes 304 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:50.000 out of the hot desert wind. And that is one 305 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:55.240 interpretation of how the gin are born or or created. Generally, 306 00:21:55.240 --> 00:22:00.000 people here believed that they were they're created from smokeless fire, 307 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.279 that God originally created them from smokeless fire, like he 308 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.839 was is supposed to have created man out of clay. 309 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.720 But they there are some who believe that that the 310 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:19.240 that the Gin actually come from hot desert, the scorching 311 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:23.640 desert wind. But for the purposes in my book that 312 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.680 when I call them fire spirits, I'm referring to that origin, 313 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:30.319 not that they have any connection with fire. Now, just 314 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.559 as humans would not be considered to be clay creatures. 315 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.160 But it simply identifies their origin and the views of 316 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:40.920 most people in this part of the world. 317 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.039 Getting back to you're talking about how it was originally 318 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:47.119 associated with the winds and stuff it was. It struck 319 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.319 me reading the book that in many ways, the gin 320 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:53.519 come from a long tradition of blaming sort of the 321 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:58.759 supernatural or natural other for bad things that happened. You know, 322 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:02.880 you have drop, you have sandstorms, you have bad areas 323 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.119 or areas where where wise travelers either don't go or 324 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.319 tread very lightly, and it seems like that the gin 325 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.279 reside in those places. And so in some ways it 326 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:16.160 seems like the gin are used as other monsters are 327 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.839 throughout the world, as well as sort of a boogeyman, 328 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:21.279 you know, watch out, you know, if you if you 329 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.119 don't stay too far off the path, because you know, 330 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.440 bad things will happen to you. And you also talk 331 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:31.119 for example, about how about how gin are said to 332 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:34.440 appear in the form of snakes, and that there's a 333 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.279 prohibition against killing snakes because well, don't don't kill a 334 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:38.799 snake because if it turns out to be a gin, 335 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:40.440 you're going to be in bad trouble. So it's sort 336 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:44.759 of again sort of the the social control aspect of 337 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.640 of of gene. Can you can you talk a little 338 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:47.039 about that? 339 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:51.599 Yeah, and that's this. They can take the form of 340 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.000 many things. Snakes is one of the most common. 341 00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:55.119 But uh. 342 00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:00.000 There the fact that I mean the number of stores 343 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:04.240 is uh. In Islamic lore about people who have killed 344 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:07.160 snakes and have been punished for it either gone before 345 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.680 gin courts or or or been put to death or 346 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.079 by by spirits or there are lots of ways that 347 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.359 they could take revenge. 348 00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:17.680 Uh. 349 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.759 But the idea of in Islam is that if you 350 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.480 if you have a doubt as to whether a creature 351 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:29.440 is is actually a gin. If you if you see 352 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.359 an animal and you think it perhaps is a gin, 353 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.359 you use a religious formula. You recite a religious formula 354 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:42.240 to determine if that's the case, generally what they call 355 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:46.319 the bismela or in the name of God bislaman Rahim, 356 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:49.039 in the name of God the compassionate and merciful. If 357 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.279 you say something like that, and there are a number 358 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:57.519 of other formulas, but that's the most common, the gin 359 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:01.240 will flee from you and you won't have to worry 360 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:05.000 about having to kill them. In the case of a snake, 361 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:09.200 it would leave you or even insects in your house 362 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.559 if if they happen to be jin and you recited 363 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.079 one of these formulas, then they would leave you. 364 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:23.920 Well, that's very similar to the way that Christians often 365 00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:26.920 deal with demonic forces. Is an incantation of hill Mary, 366 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:27.559 that sort of thing. 367 00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:32.400 Yes, so, and what you were saying about the about 368 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:36.799 the forces of nature is actually, I think pretty pretty 369 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:41.319 close to the case in some respects. Certainly there are 370 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.480 all kinds of environmental hazards in this part of the 371 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:50.559 world that it can be explained by by the by 372 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:55.559 the intervention of supernatural creatures, and I think that's that 373 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.960 probably is the case, but they're also there are also 374 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:04.440 other there are explanations that that are not related to nature, 375 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:08.519 and so we have we have all kinds here. The 376 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.599 animal thing is is interesting. Shape shifting seems to be 377 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:16.559 one of the characteristics of the most common characteristics of 378 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.640 gin and why they would take one shape rather than 379 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:26.000 another as hasn't really been well explained to people. But 380 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:28.359 you do see them in just about every animal form 381 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:35.640 except the wolf, and that is has is kind of mysterious. 382 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:41.200 But there there is apparently the gin cannot or will 383 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.160 not emulate a wolf, for some reason there there is 384 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.400 a Gin creature in Yemen that does take the form 385 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:52.559 of a wolf, and that's the sort of the exception 386 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.559 that proves the rule. It's something called the Udrut and 387 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:59.720 it appears on the scene when someone has been killed 388 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:01.920 and there is blood, When there is some sort of 389 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.160 a violent act and there is a dead person, the 390 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:10.559 groot creature as a wolf will come and lurk and 391 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:13.920 scare people. But it never does anything. I mean, it 392 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:20.799 never attacks anyone. It's just a visible presence. That's the 393 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:25.359 only time that I've ever come across Gin in the 394 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:29.240 form of wolves, and that's only in Southern Arabia. In 395 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.000 the other parts of Arabia that they would never the 396 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:33.920 Gin would never take the form of a wolf. 397 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:41.640 So is the scope culturally? Is the scope of the 398 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:46.480 influence of Gin tied to Islamic culture or is it 399 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:48.920 tied to North Africa or how do you think that 400 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:51.000 plays out? Because I know there's a lot of shape 401 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:55.200