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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone
back to the Pekingana Show, Part two of the Spanish
Civil War with Carl Dahl. What's going on? Call?
Speaker 2: Hey, Pete, Happy Monday.
Speaker 1: Happy Monday, man, let's do this. Is going to release
us tomorrow, so this will be nice and fresh for people. Yes,
not like we're going to sit on it for a while.
So yeah, let's pick up right where we left off.
And the bullet points came to. We had just talked
about Portugal and now let's just pick right up where
we left off. The North Falls nineteen thirty seven, Madrid
and its northeastern flank in Guadalajara hold against relentless assault
Franco strategic focus. The capture of Madrid leads to a
grinding struggle over several months which sees no improvement in
the nationalist situation. After failed nationalist defensives in Yarama and
Guadalajara cause heavy Spanish and Italian casualties, Successes elsewhere such
as It's taking Amalaga and a large Swatha territory in
southern Spain encourage nash of those forces to look elsewhere
for more vulnerable threats. The nationalist strategy shifts mostly away
from fixation upon prestige targets and toward attrition warfare.
Speaker 2: And I'll point out one thing there, Pete. This is
often with a asterisk like to the great frustration of
his allies and commentators because the you'll you'll see the
reference in Guadalajara. There were heavy Spanish and Italian casualties
across those two battles. The Italians and the Germans wanted
to smash this pass at Guadalajara, and Franco, after you know,
initial struggles, didn't think it was going to pan out,
and the Italians kind of went for it anyway, dictating
what the what the strategy would be, I should say,
the Italians and the and the Germans who were supporting
in the air. And this really pissed off Franco. And
there's debates on whether he had committed to provide forces
and didn't or if he originally said I don't think
there's an operation there and they expected to come save them,
and it was more of a He brought enough of
a force so that they could have a controlled retreat
and the Italians took heavy casualties. So not only was
it a change in their strategy, but it was one
of the times, it was one of the first visible
instances where his foreign allies tried to push strategic and
operational moves that Franco didn't agree with and he rained
them in, and he very successfully rained them in pretty
much for the rest of the war. It's a sore
spot with the folks that look at the Spanish Civil
War from a non Spanish focus. If their orientation is
towards these allies and you know, all out of caveat
that we should, you know, and do respect their sacrifices.
It's still a Spanish war being run by the Spanish.
So that was a very interesting thing. That is a
big sticking point, and pretty much all of the histories
that you'll read and it's pretty clear that it was
Franco asserting himself there. It wasn't the strategy wasn't working,
and so he changed his strategy accordingly, which was highly
successful after long periods of trying to do what they
were kind of telling him to do and and not
really working.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, the war in the North, Republican forces
in Basque Country, cut off by land and with little
resupply and reinforcement coming by sea due to blockade, are
slowly whittled down by Riquette Militia's the navarrebre Game and
later Nationalist army columns and Italian troops in the West,
entire units of Catholic Basque conscripts surrender to then join
their cousins in the nationalists rachetas.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Small small point there is that the kind of uh,
the the kind of retrospective Basque nationalist position is that
you know, oh, they were so put upon by Franco
and actually, uh, the early recutees were largely Basque and
they made quick converts because you could be in a
labor battalion or prison camp or dead, or you could
hang out with your fellow traditionalist Catholics and that and
the Basque were uh. The kind of Basque nationalist peace
up in Basque Country was very divided between these kind
of traditionalists and the socialists who were part of the
real Republican orientation. That was a big division between the two,
and so it was an easy move to move over
and away from the kind of There weren't as many
indignities and an atrocities in the north by the republic
because they were tempered by this kind of traditionalist Catholic
Basque you know, the bulk of the population. But they
still weren't big fans of those people, and especially as
you pointed out the last time, we talked Pete like
they would just tell you what they thought, right, like
nobody was mincing words. And so the Catholics very quickly
saw the light and came over to the the Recutes
and the Navarre Brigade, because it was a much better
deal for them than persisting in the delusion that they
could that they could win.
Speaker 1: All right. Combined arms operations coordination between ground troops, armor
and aviation are born enabled by improvements in and availability
of mobile radios. One of the Republic's greatest errors in
the North is reliance upon press ganged monarchist engineers in
the development of defensive fortifications around Basque country. Captain Pablo
Murga is executed November nineteenth, nineteen thirty six, for providing
plans with the fortifications to an Austrian consul, Wilhelm the Wolkanig,
who is himself arrested and executed by the Republic on
February twenty seventh, nineteen thirty seven. Captain Alejandro goico aheya goicoihea,
good job? Who yeah, well you put the pronunciation there.
Speaker 2: Who you have to.
Speaker 1: Who only wants to work on trains, crosses to front
with a group of Carlist sympathizers and a pre arranged
surrender of the fourth Brigade of Navarre. He delivers detailed
plans on the fortifications around Bilbao, known alternately as the
Iron Belts in Spanish, the Iron Ring in English, and
the Iron French Offence in Basque. Iron Belt hits hardest, sorry, guys,
including the locations of vulnerabilities he deliberately engineered into its construction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's it's a it's this is a story
that like, you'll just get this little brief thing that
he went over in in your kind of English language
summary histories. But the Spanish material that Goikoehea was like
a big wheel in Spain for decades and a major
player in transportation and the like his his his innovations
are everywhere today and a lot of them are becoming
fulfilled as technology and metallurgy and stuff advances. I have
a fun little article about him on my sub stack
for anyone who's interested. But he literally just wanted to
work on trains and they wouldn't let him. He will
he would say this like up to his death, total
autist and all anyone wants to talk about in interview.
The rare interview with him in Spanish television in the
sixties and seventies is about this period and history and
all he wants to talk about his trains. He's so delightful.
Speaker 1: That's really cool. Someone who someone who knows what his
strength then is just like and just this is this
is my lane. I'm stating in it.
Speaker 2: He called himself an enemy of war, and so the
fact that they tried to make him participate in a
war that he opposed, he's just swore eternal hostility to them,
but he also just set it out of his mind.
Speaker 1: Now freed from distraction, go Eco Ehea is set loose
to work on transportation infrastructure projects for the nascent Nationalist government.
He goes on to revolutionized rail transportation with his Talgo trains,
and his innovations still see fruition as technology catches up
to his brilliant mind. Gwickwayh was given a great deal
of leeway by Francisco Franco, who saw him and his
inventions as exemplars of Spanish science and industry. While aerial
bombings of urban areas are carried out by both the
Nationalists and Republican forces throughout Spain, atrocity propaganda reaches its
twentieth century pinnacle when military targets in the historic vast
city of Guarnerica is it pronounced Guernica where Yeah, Cornica Yeah,
are bombed by German and Italian aircraft. In addition to
Republican soldiers, many civilians are killed and much of the
town destroyed. Red journalist George Steer passes on and is
reporting from the scene the inflated figure of sixteen hundred
and fifty four killed in eight hundred and eighty nine wounded,
although current consensus, driven by thorough posts Franco investigators, is
a mere one hundred and fifty three deaths. Nationalists press
liaisons reveal their ineptitude by first blowing off the claims
of having bombed the city at all, blaming the destruction
entirely upon retreating Republican forces standard forces a standard tactic
of demolishing corridors as both a delaying tactic and a
temper tantrum, when in fact the Luftwaffa documented their bombing
operation in great detail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of the most complicated elements of
the World War overall, and so I and it's really
unfortunate that the nationalists like just completely denied it, or
I should say the nationalist press liaisons completely denied it.
But it did happen. But again, a lot of it
was very clearly Republican. A lot of the damage was
Republican behavior as well. It was their mo o.
Speaker 1: All right side. Note Pablo Picasso's now famous paint San
Guernica said to have shook up the world that the
nineteen thirty seven Paris Is Worldfare as a protest against
the senseless bombings of the historic Basque city for no
reason by evil mustache men, had actually been a flop,
distained by the global public, the Spanish and the Basque.
A heavy propaganda campaign persisted with the peace touring Great
Britain in nineteen thirty eight is a Little Fanfare and
nineteen thirty nine the United States with the Spanish relief campaign.
So critics continue to dismiss it. Only during a wildly
successful touring show of a large Picasso collection begun in
New York in November nineteen thirty nine, is war raged
in Europe that the propaganda campaign finally succeed in elevating
this piece to its now historically relevant position. It is
alleged in older pieces that Guernica was originally inspired inspired
by the Peninsular War as a general commentary on war,
and repurposed by Spanish Republican propagandists after the.
Speaker 2: Bombing, and I'm trying to find exactly where I've seen that.
I've seen it in multiple places. I know Kemp makes
a reference to it. I've seen it in other written records,
but I'm having trouble finding it right now, which is
the joy of having read so many pieces. So that's
something I'm going to correct, and once I find it,
I think I'll have an article on my substack about
all these kind of controversies and arguments about Guernica and
just the fact that the propaganda campaign finally succeeded once
World War two was kicking off. But that was hugely
due to just like media promotion of it, because they
tried and tried and tried, as you've explained, and it
finally took when World War two had already started.
Speaker 1: And a typically courageous and honorable move, Riquitte forces from
the Tercio Tercio of Bogogna first to capture Guernica two
days after the bombing, encircle the historic Tree of Guarnica
and protect it from phalongists from other parts of Spain
who wished to fell the symbol of Basque nationalism, under
which the lords of Biscay swore their odes to the
Fuerros for five hundred years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's actually a fun story, in a true
story that came out of written records from veterans of
the Navarre Brigades that this happened and a nice little
fist fight between officers ensued. So yeah, it's it's it's
one of these very interesting sore spots where the the
kind of the respect for the various expressions of locality
as long as they didn't actually undermine the collective nationalism,
were kind of settled. During the war.
Speaker 1: The Treto April nineteen, nineteen thirty seven, the Folonguay and
Carlos Riquettes are formally unified into the Falangay Espanola Tradisson
Tradision No Lista de los de Offensiva national national Syndica Lista.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a brutal mouthful one, but it's
literally just they take the traditionalist group and then smush
around it like envelop the traditionalist party name with fall
on Gay and then it was the fall on Gay
de las Jons, right, and so they just crammed everything
together and it's everyone like laughs about it. But the
real point of it is what follows.
Speaker 1: One party, one army, one state for longest and Carlos
units still fight under the command of their own officers
and are allowed to use their own symbols through the
end of the war, but the militias are fully incorporated
into the Nationalist Army's command and logistics structure, and.
Speaker 2: Post war they're able to use those symbols as well,
you know, and then from then on, so the veterans
organizations can you know, wear those colors. But after the war,
the military a Spanish military as standardized, where it's strictly
the symbols that the leadership selects. So it was a
tip of the hat to you know, how they got there,
and rather than trying to suppress one or the other,
it was a pretty small, a small, pretty small move
to allow people to keep their symbols. Because keep in mind,
Franco was non ideological. These groups may have been ideological,
although I would guess that most of the actual fighters
weren't particularly ideo ideological other than like the outcomes that
they were trying to get. So it's just it's a
very big thing for us all to think about as
we go into this new world.
Speaker 1: The May days in Catalonia, fighting between the more libertarian anarchists,
the communists, and the bentany cn FAL is that FAI
right fai yeah, ends in republican consolidation of power over
Catalonia and a renewed focus upon the collective fight against
the nationalists. As this tradition, this translates into the communist
forces forcing the less radical and libertarian elements to submit
or die. The decree to unify the militias went out
in nineteen thirty six, but the role became de facto
during the course of nineteen thirty seven with the Brigidas
Mixta mixed brigades combining militias and the remains of international
brigades with regular army troops. The last of the holdouts
are liquidated by commissars.
Speaker 2: And for the average, for the average person in one
of these militias like they're just going to get with
the program. But it was the commissars were going after
the particularly the anarchists did not have commissars, person say,
but they had kind of natural leaders who would you know,
you know, spit games as it were, regarding what their
ideology was. And those people were just eliminated if they
didn't just shut up and get with the program. So
you see the comparison where under the Nationalists you're allowed
to keep your symbols and your you know, your songs
and your talking points as long as you're part of
the operation, whereas with the Republicans, like the ideology is
the important thing, the symbols are the important thing.
Speaker 1: Right. June third, nineteen thirty seven, General Mala, commander are
the Armies of the North and champion of the Carlist Traditionalists,
perishes in an airplane accident. June nineteenth, Bill Bilbao, the
capitol Labskaya falls to the Nationalists after months of heavy fighting.
July sixth, in an attempt to seize Nationalists territory and
divert their forces in the North, the Republican army launches
an offensive west of Madrid, forced upon Brunette. Republican forces
are ultimately routed at a loss of twenty five thousand men.
Speaker 2: And this will become a pattern the when the Republicans
attempt an offensive.
Speaker 1: August twenty fourth to the eastern Aragon, Republican forces conceive
of an offensive Internationalists territory in the direction of Zaragoza,
the province's capital. In a grinding battle against heavy resistance,
the offensive stalls for propaganda purposes the republic and their
tame gay retard. Journalist Ernest Hemingway dubbed the failed defensive
the Battle of beet Belchite, Belchite being the destroyed town
that they finally capture on September sixth, despite the resistance
of both nationalists and civilian defenders. The Republican price for
a bit of strategically useless territory is nearly nine thousand
casualties and a heavy loss in equipment. August twenty sixth,
the city of Santander falls to Nationalist troops supported by
a substantial force of Italians. Sixty thousand Republican soldiers are captured.
October twenty first, Gihon Astorius, the last toe hold of
the republic in the north, falls to the Nationalists. The
Nationalist army, fresh from victory in the north, retools and
reorganizes with new equipment and tactical capabilities. The Republican army,
fresh from getting wrecked retools and reorganizes under its ideological
ideologically pure communist officers trained in Russia.
Speaker 2: So if you look at the timeline just to kind
of summarize what brought us here. When the war kicks
off at the very beginning, you know, the nationalists only
hold the territory that they hold. There's that kind of
band in the northern areas not counting you know, Basque
country and then little toe holds, and then towards the
end of nineteen thirty six and nineteen thirty seven, it's
consolidation of these holdings kind of in a westward flank
and slowly, slowly whittling away and making gains all the
kind of militias had to do before the nationalist you know,
the bulk of nationalist forces coming from the Army of
Africa is hold these territories, and then what do they do?
They continue to hold them. The army continues to hold
these territories, and then they just grind out the north.
A lot of that though, again like I made reference to,
as a lot of it is large Basque forces going
over and basically you know, continuing to wear the red beret,
just as recutees and nationalist troops, so it's it's a
big focus. The rest of the Republican forces are kind
of just trying to hold on to what they have
and consolidate into a single force and just failing anytime
they try to do any kind of offensive operations.
Speaker 1: Tarro December thirty seventh February through February nineteen thirty eight,
the Republican army, desperate for a successful battle and needing
to secure the nationalists most obvious gateway to the south,
drove into the remote capital during heavy snowfall. Nationalist forces
prudently withdraw into the most defensible part of town, but
General Franco orders that it be retaken. No provincial capital
can fall to the Republicans. To the coldest winter in
twenty years, the Nationalist response stalls, and a relief force
is not able to attack until December twenty ninth. Worsening weather.
The temperature drops to zero degrees fahrenheit minus eighteen celsius
and four feet to one hundred and twenty centimeters of
snowfalls keeps aviation largely grounded and prevents the Nationalists from
retaking the city. The besieged Nationalist defenders surrender on January eighth,
which allows the civilian population to be evacuated through Nationalist lines.
The weather eases up in the Nationalists, now one hundred
thousand strong in the immediate area, begins to capture territory
around the city where Republican forces are weakest. On February seventh,
one of the last mass cavalry charges in the history
of warfare breaks the republic defenses to the north of
the town and scatters them. The Nationalists take thousands of
prisoners in massive stocks of weapons and equipment. They slowly
encircled Tarowe over the following weeks. When they take the
city on February twenty second, they capture fourteen thousand, five
hundred men and some of the best weapons left in
the Republican arsenal. While both sides take similarly heavy casualties
from combat illness and the cold, the defeat breaks the
back of the Republican army, while the Nationalists immediately launch
a new offensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the other thing here too, focusing on the weapons
and equipment that are captured. This is like armor, So
the Nationalists really enjoyed taking captured Soviet tanks and armored
cars and the like guns, anti tank guns, etc. They
preferred them in a lot of cases because they were
so simple and easy to train with, whereas like a
lot of the and stuff, they'd have complicated optics that
were more complicated than necessary from you know, when you're
talking about the ranges that are involved in an effective
range for like an anti anti tank gun. Right. So
it's really interesting because the Nationalists immediately put this these
weapons to use. They have fuel and they have people
to operate them, whereas the Republic you know, is you know,
they have to get things delivered by sea or coming
over the border from France, and you know, the Soviets
are pretty stingy after their initial deliveries of armor and
a lot of more modern stuff. So it just becomes
this this grind where this this becomes the repeated pattern
that you just continue to see for the rest of
the year.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. Back in the middle
of the paragraph, it says the besieged Nationalist defenders surrender
on January eighth, which allows a civilian population be evacuated
through the nationalist lines. What do you mean by surrender there?
Speaker 2: Okay, so they they gave up the last of their
toe hold in the city. So what they what they
did is they held a position. They held positions and
allowed the population to retreat because they had a connection
to their own lines by having because remember they they
secured all this territory around the outskirts of the city.
Uh so they just pulled out of the city. You know,
these just completely annihilated remnants of the town. You can
see images of it online. And then the last of
them that were that in being trapped farther into and encircled,
you know, within within the town, they surrendered and then
the retaking of the town happened. Because what what would
take place is that the Republicans were so focused on
we have to take the whereas the nationalists had this
more long term strategic view of what do we actually get?
So they did have a lot of holdouts that were
captured or killed. They wanted the population to be able
to get out through channels that they had established with
the contact that the nationalists had made with them. They
didn't have enough forces to Russian and it wasn't worth
it to try to hold more of the town or
fight when they could withdraw and then you know, isolate
those people. It's interesting. There's great Wikipedia articles on it
with good maps.
Speaker 1: Oh cool, all right. Note in February nineteen thirty nine,
one of the last official acts of the Republican government
is the execution of the commander of the Nationalist Defenders
of Taroyl, Ray dark Court, along with the Bishop of
Taroyl and forty one other heroic prisoners who held out
for so long. Man. Yeah, they just they fucking loved killing.
Speaker 2: People there, that's all they are. Yeah, so you you
hold out, and so what do they do? They hold them,
They hold them as prisoners for a while and then
and it was literally the republic the leadership of the
Republican government said, to execute them our democracy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it comes down to it, these are the
These are the people that the spiritual brothers and sisters
of the ones that won World War two. Yeah, and yeah,
we have been so fucking brainwashed into well, you know,
Hitler was worse than them. So, you know, it's a
good thing they do. It's a good thing.
Speaker 2: We have to choose.
Speaker 1: We have to choose one, apparently, So let's take you know,
let's take the ones that brought us trans kids and
you know, all the fucking shit that we put up with. Now, yeah,
these are spiritual these are the spiritual forefathers of everything
that we're dealing with now. But hey, hey, you know
Germany had a problem.
Speaker 2: With one group, it gets worse.
Speaker 1: The shift of focus into Aragon underscores Franco's intent to
ignore Madrid for the time being and instead smashed a
Spanish Republican army through attrition rather than attempt a knockout blow,
which frustrates as German and Italian allies that would start,
though it better serves Franco's goal of cleansing Spain.
Speaker 2: Because you need a lasting victory. You need a lasting victory. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny is I was listening to John
Harris on the Conversations That Matter podcasts Christian podcast. He
was interviewing Paul Gottfried today, and you understand why Paul
Gottfried is ignored, I mean hated by the left, but
also ignored by the right when he starts talking about solutions. Yeah,
and he says, you know, the only way forward is
the left in this country has to be utterly defeated.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There can't be a trace of them left. There can't
be a trace of whatever it is that they're pushing.
And they believe left and there's all on the right,
can't hear that.
Speaker 2: There's an interesting thing that takes place nowadays when you
talk about the Spanish Civil War is there's people that
are upset that Franco didn't just like murder all of them,
which he wasn't going to do anyway because of his
religious convictions. This is as close as you're going to get.
I remember you and I were talking, oh gosh some
time ago, and you made a reference to a quote
that had been attributed to Franco where he said something
like he was willing to shoot like twenty percent of
the country, or have twenty percent of the country shot
something like that. And what it was a reference to
is the percentile of hardcore revolutionaries that were in the country.
And so when you see what happened with the war
when they turned it into oh, well, you know, we
can resolve this through combat operations, it's this great heat
sink where all the zelots are going to be fighting
the people who are you know, just kind of along
because that's the you know, the thing, or because they
get drafted or you know, they're told that it's the norm.
You know, they're not really going to be a problem
in the future and can just be dealt with. They can,
they'll get back to work and so on and so forth.
But those real enemies were the ones that were annihilated,
you know, through through combat, and so you know it.
The main thing with Spain is that it's you know,
no man is an island, no country is completely isolated.
You know, the external world moved on, you know, the
United States State Department sure wenttle away on the Fronco
government and the likes. So it's one of those criticisms
where they did pretty much the best that they could.
There was no scenario where you get a great cleansing
that the same people will also accurately state did not
happen in Germany, but somehow will wish that they had
done it, or as a critique right of Spain, and
it's like there was no scenario where that was going
to happen. The outside world wouldn't have allowed it either,
It's particularly the British.
Speaker 1: On March seventh, the Nationalists launched the Aragon Offensive and
st roll south through Aragon, eastern Valencia Province and western Catalonia,
and no small part due to strong support from German,
Italian and Spanish ground attack aircraft. The beleaguered Republicans are
slowly mopped up, and the Nationalists reached the Mediterranean Sea
on April fourteenth. By April nineteenth, they controlled thirty seven
miles sixty kilometers of coastland and Catalonia has been isolated
from the rest of the Republic.
Speaker 2: And I made that reference to combined arms operations before,
and they were born before, but they really become polished
in the Oragon offensive. There's really very interesting writeups from
the German perspective on how they kind of established the
doctrine that we saw a lot of in World War
Two by the Germans. It was just it was really impressive,
and it comes down to having more portable radios and
communications between forward air controller aircraft. I mean, the United
States uses the same doctrine today. I'm not exactly the same,
but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Francis government reopens the Spanish frontier March seventeenth and sends
eighteen thousand tons of war material into Catalonia, with a
new round of conscription for males aged sixteen and up
and retreating forces consolidated. Catalonia's remaining manpower is organized into
the Ebro Army. May the Republican government defended in Valencia
behind the impressive xyz Or Matayana Line fortifications ringing the
city and surrounding Iberian System mountain range, sues for peace.
General Franco declines and demands unconditional surrender.
Speaker 2: So they were very impressive defensive fortifications and they sued
for peace because because they knew what a you know,
what a nightmare it would be for the nationalists to
try to grind through it, and they were trying. They
were trying, but that wasn't that wasn't going to happen.
There was It was not going to be a split country.
Speaker 1: The Battle of the Ebro the Fall of the Republic.
The Nationalists focused upon Valencia hold the Catalonian front along
the Ebro River with a light complement of units and
little fortification. Condor Legion reconnaissance flights and Spanish Legion scouts
on the ground alert Nationalist forces to a Republican troop
build up along the Ebro River. The standard English language
historians take as the warning went unheeded, but some military
analysts and Spanish sources claim that the resulting assault was
permitted the night of July fourth, The night of July
twenty fourth through twenty fifth. While the moon is down,
the Ebro Army, consisting of the fifth and fifteenth Army
Corps or crosses the Ebro River at low points or
via assault boats, pontoon bridges, and some established crossings along
the river's eastern bulge, where Aragon and Catalonia meet a
natural border defined by the river and surrounding mountains at Amposta.
To the south near the river and near the sea,
where the river is wider and swifter. A secondary assault
by the fourteenth International Brigade fails after eighteen hours of combat.
By July twenty sixth, the northern assault advances three miles
west and at the Great Eastward Bulge twenty one miles northwest,
deep into mountainous territory. Nationalists reinforcements sweep in with eight
divisions and more than two hundred and forty aircraft to
encircle and hold the oncoming Republican troops, driving them off
the navigable roads and destroying their vehicles. Republican infantry and
tanks arrive via the northern route on the outskirts of
their target, the town of Gondesa, a great crossroads by
which they hope to break through the narrow national assilient
and reach Republican territory to the west. Their ultimate delusion,
you comment, delusional goal. Yeah, it's to either it's to
either secure concessions by forcing the surrender of trapped nationalist
forces along the coastline, or to reinforce Madrid and hold
that for net for international support.
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely delusional. They were. They were cut off from
the Valencia. Valencia was not quite encircled, but the eastern, eastern,
and northern areas where were very heavily fortified, not fortified,
but surrounded by nationalist troops who were attacking. The breakout
was very ill conceived. And so what looking at a map,
there's essentially this bulge that I describe where you could
see at the farthest westernmost point they made it about
three miles and then going up, if you count going
up through the bulge, twenty one miles northwest. So again
they're trapped in the mountains in this little tiny point
with hundreds of thousands of men there, and it's just
a horrifically idiotic attempt, last attempt for an assault.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people should understand. Books have been written just about this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the action in my novel like one of
the most pivotal points takes place during this operation, just
because it's so incredibly interesting and it's very scenic and beautiful.
Speaker 1: Too down there, they are too late. General Franco orders
the Ebro River dams at Tremp and Camarasa open. The
deluge takes the Republican pontoon boats out of action for
four days, and the bridge's supply lines and truck depots
along the river are bombed and straighted by Nationalist aviation.
While trucks make it across the bridges, telling artillery and
transporting troops, they are not able to establish the apply
lines back across the river and are destroyed in great numbers,
as are the supporting gun batteries and supply depots on
the eastern side of the river. Only twenty two tanks
and a small number of artillery pieces had crossed the Ebro,
and nearly eighty thousand Republican troops now trapped west of
the river have only the supplies they can carry to
survive in the heat of the Spanish summer. Republican engineers
focus upon restoring their pontoon bridges every night, only for
them to be destroyed the next day and within a
few days Republican forces are completely trapped within the pocket
and cut off from their supply lines across the river.
Not that they would have been permitted to retreat. To
the communist leadership, desperate for the propaganda value of a
decisive victory, only attack was permitted, and you put, lol, well.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's insane, but they were basically like, do
not come back, or we'll shoot at you. There were
several points where that made that they relaxed that later
on after they got spanked so badly, but it was
it's really just insane and shows who you're talking about.
There was no strategic value or chance of this succeeding.
Just completely delusional. And that's where the that's where the
argument about the attack probably being somewhat allowed to happen,
you know, versus it being such a big surprise, because
I mean, it's one of those things that people will
debate forever, you know, but it it just seems so
such an obviously stupid operation. But they, you know, thanks
to you know, aviation surveillance and the like, you know,
plenty knew that it was going to happen.
Speaker 1: Republican forces never breakthrough and said Agandessa and suffer heavy
cashes as its outskirts and hills immediately overlooking the town.
Thanks to the season, Nationalist militaries combined to arms attack.
By August, most of the Republic's aircraft are swept from
the sky and the Nationalists achieved total air superiority. The
first Nationalist counter offensive is launched against a small northernmost
pocket near Fayone, which drives entrenched Republicans across the river
at a loss of nine hundred men and two hundred
precious brand new machine guns. The next day, August eleventh,
the Nationalists drive into the Pandul's mountain range and capture
much of the high ground. The Ebro dams are opened again,
destroying the remaining pontoon bridges, and six Nationalist divisions sweep
into the height heights of Geta over five days of fighting.
At this point, Franco's ally Mussolini, fingers clenched no doubt
in a rude gesture, states to Franco does not know
how to make war and doesn't want to, unlike Mussolini,
and you put too soon. Franco's strategy secures peace in
this country for nearly forty years, as the enemies of
Spain or blasted a machine gun in the mountains over
the next three months. On September twenty first, the International Brigades,
so those who are still alive, throw their hands up
and formally withdraw from Spain, having sustained twenty five percent
fatalities in their two years in Spain. Is that s
for spit?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, okay that yeah, yeah, that was the operation.
The International Brigades were always used as shock troops. If
you'll recall in that the very first like two days
of one of their units getting to Madrid, they had
something like twenty five percent fatalities or casualties in two days.
They were always the ones thrown into the assault because
they were under basically under command of Soviet fanatics, Communist
commissars and officers who saw them as completely disposable. It
was international Bolshevism, you know, just taking their lives and
throwing them into this fight. The very end of them
was the Battle of the Ebro, and they just the leadership,
they were completely broken by this. No that there was
no way that they could get more people to volunteer.
They couldn't get people to go back. They were if
you read any of the records written in the memoirs
written by those people who I do not speak of
in high esteem. They were just completely shattered by this.
It was stupid and they just got annihilated.
Speaker 1: By November sixteenth, the last Republican forces on the right
bank of the Ebro escape at Flicks. Both sides suffer
massive casualties in the Battle of Ebro. Although the figures
are difficult to estimate, it's likely that Republican casualties number
seventy five thousand, with thirty thousand dead. Additionally, the majority
of the military relevant arms in Catalonia are lost in
the battle. The Nationalists too, take approximately sixty thousand casualties,
though almost certainly fewer than ten thousand dead. But among
them are their very best frontline officers, and their armor
and trucks are severely worn out from the tempo of
mountain maneuver and combat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that can't be understated, just because again these are
hardened veterans that had mastered these combined arms operations rapid response.
They were just worn out. So things get quiet for
a while while everyone kind of retools.
Speaker 1: The Condor Legion withdraws most of its ground forces from
the field and shifts a significant portion of their air
crews to Germany due to tensions Andkloslovakia. There we go, yep,
German a's German aid is paused in mid September as
Germany and Spain negotiate compensation. They settle upon granting Germany
an interest in the output of Spanish minds. New aircraft
BF one oh nine ease H, E one eleven e's
and j's and HS one twenty six a's reinforce the
legion and enable it to close out the war in
a primary aviation role, and the older equipment is sold
to Spain during the legion before the legion returns to
Germany in May nineteen thirty nine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of the most modern German equipment is
being proven in combat but is then handed off to
the Spanish. Sold to the Spanish because again like there's
more coming out of German factories and the latest and
greatest is always coming and they're iterating based on their
operational observations in Spain.
Speaker 1: After rest repair and restructuring, fresh troops are brought in
for the invasion of Catalonia in late December nineteen thirty nine,
Catalonia is captured against hardly any resistance. By early February,
hundreds of thousands of Spanish refugees crowded the camps in
southern France. February twenty seventh, the UK and France formally
recognized the Franco government. March fifth, the Republican army rises
against the Prime Minister Nagnin and forms the National Defense
Council to negotiate peace with Franco. Communist troops in Madrid
attempts to continue the war or squashed in street fighting
by their former allies. March twenty sixth, the Nationalists advance
from all sides towards Madrid. March twenty eighth. Madrid surrenders
almost bloodlessly. March thirty first, the Nationalists control all Spanish territory.
April first, Franco proclaims Legeda s Alfinale the war is
at its end after accepting the surrender of the last
Republican forces. The cost combat dead figures vary but range
between one hundred and fifty and two hundred thousand killed
in action on both sides both sides. Ramon Salas Larnzaba
Larnzabals authoritative nineteen seventy seven study calculates one hundred and
sixty five thousand, three hundred and sixty seven total combat dead.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lorenzo bal is very interesting. There's several websites online
with his records and methodology in them, his sources for everything.
He used every source that he could find and went
through Spanish records, just an exhausting minutia. And he also
compared it to pre war and post war numbers, where
he wasn't like one hundred percent sure. So when you
when you talk about the cost of the war, it's
a big topic, and so he's pretty much the best
source that I've seen. And what keeps happening, and I
think we talked about this a little bit last time,
is that you know, the during this truth and reconciliation
regime that's taking place in Spain, they'll say, oh, well,
we think that these are you know, we're going to
lean on what the Republican numbers were, and then as
they actually go through and reconcile it, it just squares
up with the numbers that Larenzepal put together, you know,
almost fifty years ago.
Speaker 1: So I think most people would be if you look
at that number, one hundred and sixty five thousand in
just a civil war in Spain, in Europe, in Europe
in the twentieth century. That's I mean world War two
obviously we don't could be forty million, could be twenty million. Yeah, yeah,
it's impossible to tell. But this warm up, I mean,
this is basically you know, what I like to refer
to as World War one and a half is just
absolute insanity.
Speaker 2: And the total population from zero to one hundred Right
of Spain at the time was about twenty five million.
Speaker 1: Executions and murders sles. Lorenzo bal calculates that from nineteen
thirty six to nineteen thirty nine there were seventy two thousand,
three hundred and forty four non combat executions and murders
in Republican territory. In national Spain from nineteen thirty six
to nineteen fifty the figure was fifty seven, six hundred
and sixty two, with sixteen thousand, seven hundred and sixty
three judicially governed executions in the first two years of
the war and five eight hundred seventy eight more over
the next ten years. Non hysterical academics such as Bevore
used these figures.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very important because, like you notice, I made
a distinction the nationalists, there were just like executions and murders,
you know, with no judicial procedure, and then there were
pretty severe judicial procedure numbers that followed. But again, these
are being carried out against the people that largely committed
these atrocities on the other side. So it's like if
you find someone that murdered ten people and you shoot
him after a fair trial, that's a number that's here.
But like good right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, additional civilian dead again per Siles Lorenzebal, taking
into account demographic comparisons over long stretches of time to
exclude projected deaths due to natural causes, accidents, typical losses
from disease, et cetera, and verified against documented wartime records,
he arrives at an excess loss of three hundred thousand
civilian lives due to disease, hunger, lack of medicine, et cetera,
which would have been avoidable in peacetime. Interestingly, nineteen thirty
five under the Republic had significantly elevated death due to
hunger and disease in southern Spain, likely related to the
disruption caused by land reform and resulting poor harvests. Interestingly,
silest Lorenzebal notes that the otherwise expected five hundred and
fifty seven one hundred and eighty five children calculated to
not having been born during the war years hurt Spanish
demographics far worse than the losses from all other causes.
Speaker 2: And so if you think about what that means when
you talk about unjust like, look at our situation demographically
in America right now you have crime, elevated crime and murder,
right you have massive suicide, drug overdoses, deaths related to that,
deaths of despair. Right think of all the people that
are that are not having children right now because of
the hell that a certain group of people are pushing
on us and what that does to us and our strength.
So when you get revenge, theoretically, lawfully, legally, keep that
in mind as well. We should have double the numbers
that we have.
Speaker 1: Have refugees, excluding those who fled Spain at their own
accord before or during the war. About five hundred thousand
Spanish became refugees in the final days of the war,
with four hundred and fifty thousand fleeing Catalonia for France.
In February nineteen thirty nine, the French separated military age
men from the civilians and established open air internment camps.
Over time, refugees were redistributed to different facilities. About three
hundred thousand refugees returned to Spain within a few months,
where they were sorted by the Franco regime between innocent
civilians and those destined for internment camps, labor battalions or prisons.
These returnees were handled according to their role in the war,
with those who committed atrocities executed, while mere participants in
the war, draftees and generic leftists saw their sentences quickly commuted.
About thirty thousand of the refugees who remained in France
soon emigrated to Latin America, with most going to Mexico.
One hundred and sixty to one hundred and eighty thousand
remained in France and labor of battalions. Thousands of communists
and anarchist militants enjoyed the hospitality of the concentration camps
of the VSCHI and German governments. The Soviet Union accepted
a few thousand prominent Republican communists, but not the Hoi POLOI.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I remember you were talking about Mexico last time. Yep,
that's that. Mexican government brought in quite a few of
these refugees, and most of the anarchists from Catalonia ended
up in Mexico. I mean, take that with a grain
of salt. But of the ones who wrote memoirs, an
awful lot of them ended up coming back to France,
you know, after World War Two, or just stayed in Mexico.
But huge numbers of those kind of apparatchic and members
of the government and talking heads who could not go
back to Spain under Franco ended up in Mexico. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wonder how many of them went and said hello
to mister Trotsky.
Speaker 2: Probably an awful lot of them.
Speaker 1: April fourteenth, Pious the Twelfth addresses the Spanish faithful with
immense joy. With great joy, we address you, most dear
children of Catholic Spain, to address to you our fatherly
congratulations for the gift of peace and a victory with
which God is deemed worthy to crown the Christian heroism
of your faith and charity tried in so many and
so generous sufferings. Our predecessor A venerable memory, expected with
longing and trust, this providential peace, which is undoubtedly the
fruit of that copious blessing which He sent in the
very beginning of the struggle to all those who have
devoted themselves to the difficult and dangerous task of defending
and restoring the rights and honor of God and religion.
And we do not doubt that this space shall be
the one that He himself foretold. Since then, the sign
of a future of tranquility and order, and of honor
and prosperity, the designs of Providence most beloved children, have
once again dawned over. Heroic Spain, the nation chosen by
God as the main instrument of the evangelization of the
new world and as an impregnable fortress of the Catholic Faith,
has just shown to the apostles of materialistic atheism of
our century the greatest evidence that the eternal values of
religion and of the spirits stand above all things. The
tenacious propaganda and the constant efforts of the enemies of
Jesus Christ seem to have desired to try in Spain
a supreme experiment of the dissolving forces which they have
at their disposal. Throughout the world. And even though it
is true that the Almighty has for now not allowed
them to achieve their goal, he has at least tolerated
some of their terrible effects, so that the world could
see how religious persecution, undermining the very basis of justice
and charity, which are love for God and respect for
His Holy Law, may drag modern societies unthinkable abysses of evil,
destruction and passionate discord. Convince of this truth. The same
Spanish people, with the two marks characteristic of their most
noble spirit, which your generosity and frankness, rose up determinedly
in defense of the ideals of Christian faith and civilization,
deeply rooted in the Spanish soil, and aided by God
who does not abandon those who hope in Him, could
resist the push as Judah thirteen and seventeen. Sorry, Protestants
could resist a push for those who deceived by what
they believed to be a humanitarian ideal of the exultation
of the meek, truly fought only for atheism. Yes, the
primordial mean, the primordial meaning of your victory makes us
dwell in the most promising hopes that God, in his
mercy will deign lead Spain from the safe path through
the safe path of its traditional and Catholic grandeur, which
will be the point that will guide all Spaniards who
love their religion and their fatherland, in an effort to
organize the life of the nation in perfect harmony with
its most noble history of Catholic faith, piety, and civilization.
We thus exhort the authorities and shepherds of Catholic Spain,
who enlighten the mind of those who were deceived, showing
them lovingly the roots of materialism and secularism from which
their errors and wrongful acts came forth, and from which
they could spring forth again, proposed to them the principles
of individual and social justice, without which the peace and
prosperity of nations, as mighty as they may be, cannot subsist,
and which are those contained in the Holy Gospel and
the doctrine of the Church. We do not doubt that
it will happen thus, and the basis for our firm
hope are the most noble and Christian sentiments of which
the Chief of State and so many gentlemen his faithful collaborators,
have given unequivocal, unequivocal evidence, with the legal protection which
they have granted to the supreme religious and social interests.
According to the teachings of the Apostolic See. The same
hope is also founded upon the enlightened zeal and abnegation
of your bishops and priests, tempered by pain, and also
in the faith, piety and spirit of sacrifice, of which
in terrible hours all classes of Spanish society gave heroic proof.
And now before the remembrance of the mounting ruins of
the bloodiest civil war recorded in the history of modern times,
we with prize regard bow our head above all to
the holy memory of the bishops, priests, religious of both sexes,
and faithful of all ages and conditions, who, in such
an elevated number, sealed with blood their faith in Jesus
Christ and their love for the Catholic of religion major
ofm Hac Delict deliction, haven't taken a lot habit def
nemo habit greater love than this no man hath John
fifteen thirteen. We also acknowledge our debt of gratitude towards
all those who sacrifice themselves, even under heroism, in defense
of the unalienable rights of God and of religion. Either
in the battlefields or devoted to the sublime work of
Christian charity in prisons and hospitals. We cannot hide the
bitter sorrow that the remembrance of so many innocent children, who,
having been ripped from their homes, were taken to far
away lands, often in danger of apostasy and perversion. We
desire nothing more ardently than to see them return to
the bosom of their families, where they will once again
find the warm and Christian tenderness of their own. And
those others who, as prodigal sons, wish to return to
the house of the Father, we doubt not they will
be welcomed with goodwill and love. It falls upon you,
venerable brothers of the Episcopate Episcopate, to advise all, so
that in their policy of pacification, all will follow the
principles taught by the Church, and proclaim with such nobility
by the General Lissimo general Liismo, of justice for crime
and of lenient generosity for the mistaken. Our solicitude, also,
as a father, cannot forget these deceived ones whom a
deceitful and perverse propaganda succeeded in enticing with praise and promises.
Your pastoral solicitude should be targeted at them with patience
and meekness, Pray for them, seek them, lead them again
to the regenerative bosom of the Church and to the
warmth of the fatherland, and lead them to the merciful Father,
who awaits them with open arms. Therefore, most dear children,
says the rainbow of Peace, as returned to brighten the
heavens of Spain. Let us come together heartily in a
fervent hymn of thanksgiving to the God of Peace, and
in a prayer of forgiveness and mercy for all those
who perished. And in order that this peace be fruitful
and long lasting, we exhort you with all the fervor
of our heart to keep the unity of the Spirit
in the bond of peace. Ephesians four two through three. Thus, united,
in obedient to your venerable Episcopate, Episcopate, devote yourselves joyfully
and with no delay to the urgent work of reconstruction,
which God and the Fatherland expect from you. As a
pledge of the copious graces which the Immaculate Virgin and
Saint James the Apostle patrons of Spain shall obtain for you,
and which the great Spanish saints have merited for you,
we bestow upon you our dear children of Catholic Spain,
upon the Chief of State and his illustrious government, upon
the zealous Episcopate and their selfless clergy, upon the heroic combatants,
and upon all the faithful, our Apostolic Blessing Pious to
twelfth Paxing Christe Victoria eterna Amen.
Speaker 2: And I had to close it with that, because after
you look at all the numbers, after you hear about
just brutal combat all over the whole country, Spain was
a smoking hole in the ground. Spain wasn't in a
position to do anything other than what they did, which
is to buckle down and dig their way out, you know,
establish or or continue relationships with countries that they had
good relationships with, and you know, do what they could.
They weren't in a position to, you know, get involved
in another war, nor was there an appetite for it.
There were there were volunteers, there were quite heroic volunteers
for the Blue Division, but they were volunteers. They were
permitted to go, and they came home and lived safely
and in peace, and many other veterans of the Waffen
ss and and other groups were permitted to live peacefully
in Spain by the Spanish government. But they stayed out
of the next war because Franco removed his sort of
victory from his belt and placed it on the altar
on the victory celebration day and vowed never to pick
it up again unless Spain was threatened. And people can say, well,
look at look at Spain, now, look at the West now, YadA, YadA, Okay, Well,
Spain was in peace and governed under his dictates, and
the church flourished and still flourishes in Spain, and that
was is primary duty. There's an argument out there that
the logical conclusion of is that Germany lost the war
because Spain wasn't on their side, which is a very
strange thing to say, but that's kind of the logical
conclusion of many of the things that are said about.
You know, what Spain did collectively as a nation after
the war, which was too you know, continue to send
steel to in other minerals to Germany and make some
weapons for them, and other than that, you know, and
allow certainly way with things but also not go totally
under the thumb of the British or anyone else and
just kind of ride it out and enjoy some peace.
So I just wanted to point out the stakes. And
you can't a fervent Catholic cannot go against the you
know that heavy, that heavy blessing with a with a
you know, now we know how to behave ourselves, don't we,
according to the precepts of the religion that you follow.
So hence, hence the way I wanted that to wrap up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you remember there there were more than a
few people who fought the war valiant, valiantly, who would
have faced the rope, and Franco brought them in and
protected them and let them live out their lives in Spain.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And it was a sticking point with the Allies,
but he didn't care because they didn't they didn't have,
you know, the leverage to do anything about it, and
it wasn't worth stirring up. So and they're very nice blessings.
It's it makes a someone a silly prot like my self, like,
look at our tradition, which is schism and uh, people
with a lot of goo in their hair and and
jeans with embroidery on the pockets and guitars apparently, and
then you hear that just heavy like laden with emotion.
Ah prayer slash congratulatory speech. It's it's just something else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and calls for reconciliation, all forgiveness and ye mercy.
Yeah yeah, all right, let's uh let's wrap this up.
Please do your your plugs, tell people where they can
find your stuff, and I'll make sure to include them
into the show notes.
Speaker 2: Great, thank you, Uh Carldall dot substack dot com is
where most of my writing is. I have many narrative
essays and I have some of my fiction there. You
can buy buy book Faction with the Crusaders, which is
a story about a American who ends up volunteering for
the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. You can get
that on Amazon. There's links in my substack to that.
There's a sample first chapter as well, which actually is
in the Drive to the South as part of the
Aragon Offensive. That's the first chapter and that story's in there.
Lots of fun combined to arms operations and uh yeah,
I'm on Twitter too, although I'm not a Twitter enthusiast.
Cowdio doll. You'll be able to find me. There's some
numbers in there. It sucks, but you'll be able to
You'll be able to find me under Carl Dahl cowdo
doll on Twitter or excuse me X, the platform formerly
known as Twitter stupidly renamed X.
Speaker 1: Thanks Pete, all right man, thank you having good evening.
Speaker 2: Thanks you too,