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to it any way you wish. I really appreciate the

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support everyone gives me. It keeps a show going. It

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allows me to basically put out an episode every day now,

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and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate.

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I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two

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even three a day, and yeah, can't do it without you,

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So thank you for the support. Head on over to

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Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support and

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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone

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back to the Pekingana Show, Part two of the Spanish

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Civil War with Carl Dahl. What's going on? Call?

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Speaker 2: Hey, Pete, Happy Monday.

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Speaker 1: Happy Monday, man, let's do this. Is going to release

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us tomorrow, so this will be nice and fresh for people. Yes,

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not like we're going to sit on it for a while.

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So yeah, let's pick up right where we left off.

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And the bullet points came to. We had just talked

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about Portugal and now let's just pick right up where

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we left off. The North Falls nineteen thirty seven, Madrid

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and its northeastern flank in Guadalajara hold against relentless assault

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Franco strategic focus. The capture of Madrid leads to a

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grinding struggle over several months which sees no improvement in

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the nationalist situation. After failed nationalist defensives in Yarama and

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Guadalajara cause heavy Spanish and Italian casualties, Successes elsewhere such

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as It's taking Amalaga and a large Swatha territory in

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southern Spain encourage nash of those forces to look elsewhere

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for more vulnerable threats. The nationalist strategy shifts mostly away

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from fixation upon prestige targets and toward attrition warfare.

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Speaker 2: And I'll point out one thing there, Pete. This is

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often with a asterisk like to the great frustration of

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his allies and commentators because the you'll you'll see the

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reference in Guadalajara. There were heavy Spanish and Italian casualties

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across those two battles. The Italians and the Germans wanted

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to smash this pass at Guadalajara, and Franco, after you know,

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initial struggles, didn't think it was going to pan out,

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and the Italians kind of went for it anyway, dictating

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what the what the strategy would be, I should say,

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the Italians and the and the Germans who were supporting

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in the air. And this really pissed off Franco. And

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there's debates on whether he had committed to provide forces

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and didn't or if he originally said I don't think

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there's an operation there and they expected to come save them,

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and it was more of a He brought enough of

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a force so that they could have a controlled retreat

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and the Italians took heavy casualties. So not only was

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it a change in their strategy, but it was one

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of the times, it was one of the first visible

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instances where his foreign allies tried to push strategic and

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operational moves that Franco didn't agree with and he rained

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them in, and he very successfully rained them in pretty

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much for the rest of the war. It's a sore

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spot with the folks that look at the Spanish Civil

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War from a non Spanish focus. If their orientation is

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towards these allies and you know, all out of caveat

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that we should, you know, and do respect their sacrifices.

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It's still a Spanish war being run by the Spanish.

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So that was a very interesting thing. That is a

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big sticking point, and pretty much all of the histories

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that you'll read and it's pretty clear that it was

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Franco asserting himself there. It wasn't the strategy wasn't working,

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and so he changed his strategy accordingly, which was highly

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successful after long periods of trying to do what they

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were kind of telling him to do and and not

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really working.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, the war in the North, Republican forces

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in Basque Country, cut off by land and with little

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resupply and reinforcement coming by sea due to blockade, are

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slowly whittled down by Riquette Militia's the navarrebre Game and

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later Nationalist army columns and Italian troops in the West,

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entire units of Catholic Basque conscripts surrender to then join

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their cousins in the nationalists rachetas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Small small point there is that the kind of uh,

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the the kind of retrospective Basque nationalist position is that

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you know, oh, they were so put upon by Franco

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and actually, uh, the early recutees were largely Basque and

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they made quick converts because you could be in a

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labor battalion or prison camp or dead, or you could

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hang out with your fellow traditionalist Catholics and that and

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the Basque were uh. The kind of Basque nationalist peace

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up in Basque Country was very divided between these kind

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of traditionalists and the socialists who were part of the

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real Republican orientation. That was a big division between the two,

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and so it was an easy move to move over

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and away from the kind of There weren't as many

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indignities and an atrocities in the north by the republic

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because they were tempered by this kind of traditionalist Catholic

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Basque you know, the bulk of the population. But they

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still weren't big fans of those people, and especially as

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you pointed out the last time, we talked Pete like

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they would just tell you what they thought, right, like

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nobody was mincing words. And so the Catholics very quickly

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saw the light and came over to the the Recutes

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and the Navarre Brigade, because it was a much better

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deal for them than persisting in the delusion that they

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could that they could win.

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Speaker 1: All right. Combined arms operations coordination between ground troops, armor

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and aviation are born enabled by improvements in and availability

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of mobile radios. One of the Republic's greatest errors in

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the North is reliance upon press ganged monarchist engineers in

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the development of defensive fortifications around Basque country. Captain Pablo

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Murga is executed November nineteenth, nineteen thirty six, for providing

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plans with the fortifications to an Austrian consul, Wilhelm the Wolkanig,

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who is himself arrested and executed by the Republic on

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February twenty seventh, nineteen thirty seven. Captain Alejandro goico aheya goicoihea,

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good job? Who yeah, well you put the pronunciation there.

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Speaker 2: Who you have to.

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Speaker 1: Who only wants to work on trains, crosses to front

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with a group of Carlist sympathizers and a pre arranged

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surrender of the fourth Brigade of Navarre. He delivers detailed

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plans on the fortifications around Bilbao, known alternately as the

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Iron Belts in Spanish, the Iron Ring in English, and

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the Iron French Offence in Basque. Iron Belt hits hardest, sorry, guys,

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including the locations of vulnerabilities he deliberately engineered into its construction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's it's a it's this is a story

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that like, you'll just get this little brief thing that

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he went over in in your kind of English language

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summary histories. But the Spanish material that Goikoehea was like

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a big wheel in Spain for decades and a major

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player in transportation and the like his his his innovations

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are everywhere today and a lot of them are becoming

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fulfilled as technology and metallurgy and stuff advances. I have

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a fun little article about him on my sub stack

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for anyone who's interested. But he literally just wanted to

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work on trains and they wouldn't let him. He will

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he would say this like up to his death, total

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autist and all anyone wants to talk about in interview.

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The rare interview with him in Spanish television in the

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sixties and seventies is about this period and history and

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all he wants to talk about his trains. He's so delightful.

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Speaker 1: That's really cool. Someone who someone who knows what his

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strength then is just like and just this is this

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is my lane. I'm stating in it.

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Speaker 2: He called himself an enemy of war, and so the

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fact that they tried to make him participate in a

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war that he opposed, he's just swore eternal hostility to them,

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but he also just set it out of his mind.

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Speaker 1: Now freed from distraction, go Eco Ehea is set loose

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to work on transportation infrastructure projects for the nascent Nationalist government.

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He goes on to revolutionized rail transportation with his Talgo trains,

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and his innovations still see fruition as technology catches up

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to his brilliant mind. Gwickwayh was given a great deal

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of leeway by Francisco Franco, who saw him and his

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inventions as exemplars of Spanish science and industry. While aerial

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bombings of urban areas are carried out by both the

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Nationalists and Republican forces throughout Spain, atrocity propaganda reaches its

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twentieth century pinnacle when military targets in the historic vast

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city of Guarnerica is it pronounced Guernica where Yeah, Cornica Yeah,

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are bombed by German and Italian aircraft. In addition to

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Republican soldiers, many civilians are killed and much of the

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town destroyed. Red journalist George Steer passes on and is

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reporting from the scene the inflated figure of sixteen hundred

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and fifty four killed in eight hundred and eighty nine wounded,

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although current consensus, driven by thorough posts Franco investigators, is

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a mere one hundred and fifty three deaths. Nationalists press

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liaisons reveal their ineptitude by first blowing off the claims

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of having bombed the city at all, blaming the destruction

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entirely upon retreating Republican forces standard forces a standard tactic

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of demolishing corridors as both a delaying tactic and a

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temper tantrum, when in fact the Luftwaffa documented their bombing

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operation in great detail.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of the most complicated elements of

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the World War overall, and so I and it's really

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unfortunate that the nationalists like just completely denied it, or

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I should say the nationalist press liaisons completely denied it.

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But it did happen. But again, a lot of it

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was very clearly Republican. A lot of the damage was

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Republican behavior as well. It was their mo o.

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Speaker 1: All right side. Note Pablo Picasso's now famous paint San

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Guernica said to have shook up the world that the

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nineteen thirty seven Paris Is Worldfare as a protest against

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the senseless bombings of the historic Basque city for no

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reason by evil mustache men, had actually been a flop,

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distained by the global public, the Spanish and the Basque.

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A heavy propaganda campaign persisted with the peace touring Great

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Britain in nineteen thirty eight is a Little Fanfare and

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nineteen thirty nine the United States with the Spanish relief campaign.

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So critics continue to dismiss it. Only during a wildly

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successful touring show of a large Picasso collection begun in

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New York in November nineteen thirty nine, is war raged

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in Europe that the propaganda campaign finally succeed in elevating

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this piece to its now historically relevant position. It is

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alleged in older pieces that Guernica was originally inspired inspired

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by the Peninsular War as a general commentary on war,

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and repurposed by Spanish Republican propagandists after the.

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Speaker 2: Bombing, and I'm trying to find exactly where I've seen that.

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I've seen it in multiple places. I know Kemp makes

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a reference to it. I've seen it in other written records,

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but I'm having trouble finding it right now, which is

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the joy of having read so many pieces. So that's

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something I'm going to correct, and once I find it,

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I think I'll have an article on my substack about

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all these kind of controversies and arguments about Guernica and

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just the fact that the propaganda campaign finally succeeded once

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World War two was kicking off. But that was hugely

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due to just like media promotion of it, because they

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tried and tried and tried, as you've explained, and it

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finally took when World War two had already started.

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Speaker 1: And a typically courageous and honorable move, Riquitte forces from

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the Tercio Tercio of Bogogna first to capture Guernica two

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days after the bombing, encircle the historic Tree of Guarnica

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and protect it from phalongists from other parts of Spain

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who wished to fell the symbol of Basque nationalism, under

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which the lords of Biscay swore their odes to the

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Fuerros for five hundred years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's actually a fun story, in a true

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story that came out of written records from veterans of

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the Navarre Brigades that this happened and a nice little

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fist fight between officers ensued. So yeah, it's it's it's

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one of these very interesting sore spots where the the

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kind of the respect for the various expressions of locality

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as long as they didn't actually undermine the collective nationalism,

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were kind of settled. During the war.

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Speaker 1: The Treto April nineteen, nineteen thirty seven, the Folonguay and

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Carlos Riquettes are formally unified into the Falangay Espanola Tradisson

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Tradision No Lista de los de Offensiva national national Syndica Lista.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a brutal mouthful one, but it's

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literally just they take the traditionalist group and then smush

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around it like envelop the traditionalist party name with fall

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on Gay and then it was the fall on Gay

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de las Jons, right, and so they just crammed everything

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together and it's everyone like laughs about it. But the

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real point of it is what follows.

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Speaker 1: One party, one army, one state for longest and Carlos

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units still fight under the command of their own officers

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and are allowed to use their own symbols through the

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end of the war, but the militias are fully incorporated

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into the Nationalist Army's command and logistics structure, and.

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Speaker 2: Post war they're able to use those symbols as well,

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you know, and then from then on, so the veterans

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organizations can you know, wear those colors. But after the war,

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the military a Spanish military as standardized, where it's strictly

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the symbols that the leadership selects. So it was a

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tip of the hat to you know, how they got there,

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and rather than trying to suppress one or the other,

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it was a pretty small, a small, pretty small move

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to allow people to keep their symbols. Because keep in mind,

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Franco was non ideological. These groups may have been ideological,

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although I would guess that most of the actual fighters

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weren't particularly ideo ideological other than like the outcomes that

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they were trying to get. So it's just it's a

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very big thing for us all to think about as

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we go into this new world.

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Speaker 1: The May days in Catalonia, fighting between the more libertarian anarchists,

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the communists, and the bentany cn FAL is that FAI

255
00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:10,000
right fai yeah, ends in republican consolidation of power over

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Catalonia and a renewed focus upon the collective fight against

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the nationalists. As this tradition, this translates into the communist

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forces forcing the less radical and libertarian elements to submit

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or die. The decree to unify the militias went out

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in nineteen thirty six, but the role became de facto

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during the course of nineteen thirty seven with the Brigidas

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Mixta mixed brigades combining militias and the remains of international

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brigades with regular army troops. The last of the holdouts

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are liquidated by commissars.

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Speaker 2: And for the average, for the average person in one

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of these militias like they're just going to get with

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the program. But it was the commissars were going after

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the particularly the anarchists did not have commissars, person say,

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but they had kind of natural leaders who would you know,

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you know, spit games as it were, regarding what their

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ideology was. And those people were just eliminated if they

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didn't just shut up and get with the program. So

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you see the comparison where under the Nationalists you're allowed

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to keep your symbols and your you know, your songs

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and your talking points as long as you're part of

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the operation, whereas with the Republicans, like the ideology is

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the important thing, the symbols are the important thing.

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Speaker 1: Right. June third, nineteen thirty seven, General Mala, commander are

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the Armies of the North and champion of the Carlist Traditionalists,

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perishes in an airplane accident. June nineteenth, Bill Bilbao, the

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capitol Labskaya falls to the Nationalists after months of heavy fighting.

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July sixth, in an attempt to seize Nationalists territory and

283
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divert their forces in the North, the Republican army launches

284
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an offensive west of Madrid, forced upon Brunette. Republican forces

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are ultimately routed at a loss of twenty five thousand men.

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Speaker 2: And this will become a pattern the when the Republicans

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attempt an offensive.

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Speaker 1: August twenty fourth to the eastern Aragon, Republican forces conceive

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of an offensive Internationalists territory in the direction of Zaragoza,

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the province's capital. In a grinding battle against heavy resistance,

291
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the offensive stalls for propaganda purposes the republic and their

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tame gay retard. Journalist Ernest Hemingway dubbed the failed defensive

293
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the Battle of beet Belchite, Belchite being the destroyed town

294
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that they finally capture on September sixth, despite the resistance

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of both nationalists and civilian defenders. The Republican price for

296
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a bit of strategically useless territory is nearly nine thousand

297
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casualties and a heavy loss in equipment. August twenty sixth,

298
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the city of Santander falls to Nationalist troops supported by

299
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,839
a substantial force of Italians. Sixty thousand Republican soldiers are captured.

300
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October twenty first, Gihon Astorius, the last toe hold of

301
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the republic in the north, falls to the Nationalists. The

302
00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:39,839
Nationalist army, fresh from victory in the north, retools and

303
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,359
reorganizes with new equipment and tactical capabilities. The Republican army,

304
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,519
fresh from getting wrecked retools and reorganizes under its ideological

305
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,920
ideologically pure communist officers trained in Russia.

306
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Speaker 2: So if you look at the timeline just to kind

307
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of summarize what brought us here. When the war kicks

308
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off at the very beginning, you know, the nationalists only

309
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,839
hold the territory that they hold. There's that kind of

310
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,000
band in the northern areas not counting you know, Basque

311
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country and then little toe holds, and then towards the

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end of nineteen thirty six and nineteen thirty seven, it's

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consolidation of these holdings kind of in a westward flank

314
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and slowly, slowly whittling away and making gains all the

315
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:43,039
kind of militias had to do before the nationalist you know,

316
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the bulk of nationalist forces coming from the Army of

317
00:23:46,519 --> 00:23:52,640
Africa is hold these territories, and then what do they do?

318
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They continue to hold them. The army continues to hold

319
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,720
these territories, and then they just grind out the north.

320
00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:02,599
A lot of that though, again like I made reference to,

321
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,359
as a lot of it is large Basque forces going

322
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,720
over and basically you know, continuing to wear the red beret,

323
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,839
just as recutees and nationalist troops, so it's it's a

324
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big focus. The rest of the Republican forces are kind

325
00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:27,759
of just trying to hold on to what they have

326
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and consolidate into a single force and just failing anytime

327
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they try to do any kind of offensive operations.

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Speaker 1: Tarro December thirty seventh February through February nineteen thirty eight,

329
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,680
the Republican army, desperate for a successful battle and needing

330
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,640
to secure the nationalists most obvious gateway to the south,

331
00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:01,880
drove into the remote capital during heavy snowfall. Nationalist forces

332
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,400
prudently withdraw into the most defensible part of town, but

333
00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:10,240
General Franco orders that it be retaken. No provincial capital

334
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can fall to the Republicans. To the coldest winter in

335
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twenty years, the Nationalist response stalls, and a relief force

336
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,559
is not able to attack until December twenty ninth. Worsening weather.

337
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The temperature drops to zero degrees fahrenheit minus eighteen celsius

338
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,759
and four feet to one hundred and twenty centimeters of

339
00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:35,240
snowfalls keeps aviation largely grounded and prevents the Nationalists from

340
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,039
retaking the city. The besieged Nationalist defenders surrender on January eighth,

341
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,079
which allows the civilian population to be evacuated through Nationalist lines.

342
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,039
The weather eases up in the Nationalists, now one hundred

343
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:50,640
thousand strong in the immediate area, begins to capture territory

344
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,680
around the city where Republican forces are weakest. On February seventh,

345
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one of the last mass cavalry charges in the history

346
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,319
of warfare breaks the republic defenses to the north of

347
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the town and scatters them. The Nationalists take thousands of

348
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,759
prisoners in massive stocks of weapons and equipment. They slowly

349
00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:13,000
encircled Tarowe over the following weeks. When they take the

350
00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:16,160
city on February twenty second, they capture fourteen thousand, five

351
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,799
hundred men and some of the best weapons left in

352
00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:24,519
the Republican arsenal. While both sides take similarly heavy casualties

353
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:27,920
from combat illness and the cold, the defeat breaks the

354
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back of the Republican army, while the Nationalists immediately launch

355
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a new offensive.

356
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the other thing here too, focusing on the weapons

357
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:41,279
and equipment that are captured. This is like armor, So

358
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,359
the Nationalists really enjoyed taking captured Soviet tanks and armored

359
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,680
cars and the like guns, anti tank guns, etc. They

360
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,720
preferred them in a lot of cases because they were

361
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480
so simple and easy to train with, whereas like a

362
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,160
lot of the and stuff, they'd have complicated optics that

363
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,079
were more complicated than necessary from you know, when you're

364
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,200
talking about the ranges that are involved in an effective

365
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:12,440
range for like an anti anti tank gun. Right. So

366
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,480
it's really interesting because the Nationalists immediately put this these

367
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:20,519
weapons to use. They have fuel and they have people

368
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:25,960
to operate them, whereas the Republic you know, is you know,

369
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,480
they have to get things delivered by sea or coming

370
00:27:28,519 --> 00:27:33,000
over the border from France, and you know, the Soviets

371
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,640
are pretty stingy after their initial deliveries of armor and

372
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,440
a lot of more modern stuff. So it just becomes

373
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,599
this this grind where this this becomes the repeated pattern

374
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,480
that you just continue to see for the rest of

375
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:48,839
the year.

376
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,039
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. Back in the middle

377
00:27:53,079 --> 00:27:56,640
of the paragraph, it says the besieged Nationalist defenders surrender

378
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:00,960
on January eighth, which allows a civilian population be evacuated

379
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,599
through the nationalist lines. What do you mean by surrender there?

380
00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: Okay, so they they gave up the last of their

381
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,519
toe hold in the city. So what they what they

382
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:14,680
did is they held a position. They held positions and

383
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:18,960
allowed the population to retreat because they had a connection

384
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:24,200
to their own lines by having because remember they they

385
00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:28,000
secured all this territory around the outskirts of the city.

386
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,799
Uh so they just pulled out of the city. You know,

387
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,599
these just completely annihilated remnants of the town. You can

388
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,680
see images of it online. And then the last of

389
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,359
them that were that in being trapped farther into and encircled,

390
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,720
you know, within within the town, they surrendered and then

391
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:54,880
the retaking of the town happened. Because what what would

392
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,000
take place is that the Republicans were so focused on

393
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:03,440
we have to take the whereas the nationalists had this

394
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,279
more long term strategic view of what do we actually get?

395
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:10,839
So they did have a lot of holdouts that were

396
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,319
captured or killed. They wanted the population to be able

397
00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:19,720
to get out through channels that they had established with

398
00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:23,119
the contact that the nationalists had made with them. They

399
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:25,720
didn't have enough forces to Russian and it wasn't worth

400
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,559
it to try to hold more of the town or

401
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,799
fight when they could withdraw and then you know, isolate

402
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:40,160
those people. It's interesting. There's great Wikipedia articles on it

403
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,640
with good maps.

404
00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:45,799
Speaker 1: Oh cool, all right. Note in February nineteen thirty nine,

405
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,400
one of the last official acts of the Republican government

406
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:51,559
is the execution of the commander of the Nationalist Defenders

407
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,680
of Taroyl, Ray dark Court, along with the Bishop of

408
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,000
Taroyl and forty one other heroic prisoners who held out

409
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:08,680
for so long. Man. Yeah, they just they fucking loved killing.

410
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: People there, that's all they are. Yeah, so you you

411
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,400
hold out, and so what do they do? They hold them,

412
00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:18,799
They hold them as prisoners for a while and then

413
00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:22,559
and it was literally the republic the leadership of the

414
00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:29,359
Republican government said, to execute them our democracy. Yeah.

415
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it comes down to it, these are the

416
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:40,279
These are the people that the spiritual brothers and sisters

417
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:44,960
of the ones that won World War two. Yeah, and yeah,

418
00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:50,240
we have been so fucking brainwashed into well, you know,

419
00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:52,759
Hitler was worse than them. So, you know, it's a

420
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:54,200
good thing they do. It's a good thing.

421
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: We have to choose.

422
00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:01,799
Speaker 1: We have to choose one, apparently, So let's take you know,

423
00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:06,319
let's take the ones that brought us trans kids and

424
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,720
you know, all the fucking shit that we put up with. Now, yeah,

425
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:14,119
these are spiritual these are the spiritual forefathers of everything

426
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,799
that we're dealing with now. But hey, hey, you know

427
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:22,279
Germany had a problem.

428
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: With one group, it gets worse.

429
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,759
Speaker 1: The shift of focus into Aragon underscores Franco's intent to

430
00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,240
ignore Madrid for the time being and instead smashed a

431
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:41,519
Spanish Republican army through attrition rather than attempt a knockout blow,

432
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,279
which frustrates as German and Italian allies that would start,

433
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,240
though it better serves Franco's goal of cleansing Spain.

434
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: Because you need a lasting victory. You need a lasting victory. Yeah.

435
00:31:56,119 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: You know what's funny is I was listening to John

436
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:04,480
Harris on the Conversations That Matter podcasts Christian podcast. He

437
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:09,000
was interviewing Paul Gottfried today, and you understand why Paul

438
00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:14,400
Gottfried is ignored, I mean hated by the left, but

439
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:19,200
also ignored by the right when he starts talking about solutions. Yeah,

440
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,759
and he says, you know, the only way forward is

441
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,920
the left in this country has to be utterly defeated.

442
00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

443
00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: There can't be a trace of them left. There can't

444
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,160
be a trace of whatever it is that they're pushing.

445
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,079
And they believe left and there's all on the right,

446
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:39,920
can't hear that.

447
00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:43,319
Speaker 2: There's an interesting thing that takes place nowadays when you

448
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,079
talk about the Spanish Civil War is there's people that

449
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,319
are upset that Franco didn't just like murder all of them,

450
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:55,599
which he wasn't going to do anyway because of his

451
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,039
religious convictions. This is as close as you're going to get.

452
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:02,960
I remember you and I were talking, oh gosh some

453
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:06,759
time ago, and you made a reference to a quote

454
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,480
that had been attributed to Franco where he said something

455
00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:12,759
like he was willing to shoot like twenty percent of

456
00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:14,920
the country, or have twenty percent of the country shot

457
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,920
something like that. And what it was a reference to

458
00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:22,079
is the percentile of hardcore revolutionaries that were in the country.

459
00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:25,119
And so when you see what happened with the war

460
00:33:25,559 --> 00:33:27,799
when they turned it into oh, well, you know, we

461
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,720
can resolve this through combat operations, it's this great heat

462
00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:35,400
sink where all the zelots are going to be fighting

463
00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:38,519
the people who are you know, just kind of along

464
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,079
because that's the you know, the thing, or because they

465
00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:47,799
get drafted or you know, they're told that it's the norm.

466
00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:50,279
You know, they're not really going to be a problem

467
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:54,799
in the future and can just be dealt with. They can,

468
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,279
they'll get back to work and so on and so forth.

469
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,079
But those real enemies were the ones that were annihilated,

470
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,240
you know, through through combat, and so you know it.

471
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:10,159
The main thing with Spain is that it's you know,

472
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,280
no man is an island, no country is completely isolated.

473
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,639
You know, the external world moved on, you know, the

474
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,679
United States State Department sure wenttle away on the Fronco

475
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,039
government and the likes. So it's one of those criticisms

476
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:29,480
where they did pretty much the best that they could.

477
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:34,400
There was no scenario where you get a great cleansing

478
00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:38,599
that the same people will also accurately state did not

479
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,199
happen in Germany, but somehow will wish that they had

480
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,360
done it, or as a critique right of Spain, and

481
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,320
it's like there was no scenario where that was going

482
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,840
to happen. The outside world wouldn't have allowed it either,

483
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,039
It's particularly the British.

484
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: On March seventh, the Nationalists launched the Aragon Offensive and

485
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:05,840
st roll south through Aragon, eastern Valencia Province and western Catalonia,

486
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,440
and no small part due to strong support from German,

487
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,639
Italian and Spanish ground attack aircraft. The beleaguered Republicans are

488
00:35:13,679 --> 00:35:16,599
slowly mopped up, and the Nationalists reached the Mediterranean Sea

489
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:20,440
on April fourteenth. By April nineteenth, they controlled thirty seven

490
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:25,199
miles sixty kilometers of coastland and Catalonia has been isolated

491
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:26,840
from the rest of the Republic.

492
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:33,039
Speaker 2: And I made that reference to combined arms operations before,

493
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,960
and they were born before, but they really become polished

494
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,440
in the Oragon offensive. There's really very interesting writeups from

495
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:48,079
the German perspective on how they kind of established the

496
00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:52,039
doctrine that we saw a lot of in World War

497
00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:56,320
Two by the Germans. It was just it was really impressive,

498
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,239
and it comes down to having more portable radios and

499
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,719
communications between forward air controller aircraft. I mean, the United

500
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,079
States uses the same doctrine today. I'm not exactly the same,

501
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:10,840
but you know what I mean.

502
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,159
Speaker 1: Francis government reopens the Spanish frontier March seventeenth and sends

503
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,280
eighteen thousand tons of war material into Catalonia, with a

504
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,480
new round of conscription for males aged sixteen and up

505
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:30,079
and retreating forces consolidated. Catalonia's remaining manpower is organized into

506
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:36,320
the Ebro Army. May the Republican government defended in Valencia

507
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:43,920
behind the impressive xyz Or Matayana Line fortifications ringing the

508
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,559
city and surrounding Iberian System mountain range, sues for peace.

509
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,760
General Franco declines and demands unconditional surrender.

510
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: So they were very impressive defensive fortifications and they sued

511
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,679
for peace because because they knew what a you know,

512
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,480
what a nightmare it would be for the nationalists to

513
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:07,880
try to grind through it, and they were trying. They

514
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,880
were trying, but that wasn't that wasn't going to happen.

515
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,440
There was It was not going to be a split country.

516
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,039
Speaker 1: The Battle of the Ebro the Fall of the Republic.

517
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,000
The Nationalists focused upon Valencia hold the Catalonian front along

518
00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:27,639
the Ebro River with a light complement of units and

519
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:33,360
little fortification. Condor Legion reconnaissance flights and Spanish Legion scouts

520
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,880
on the ground alert Nationalist forces to a Republican troop

521
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,559
build up along the Ebro River. The standard English language

522
00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:44,159
historians take as the warning went unheeded, but some military

523
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,599
analysts and Spanish sources claim that the resulting assault was

524
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:52,880
permitted the night of July fourth, The night of July

525
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,599
twenty fourth through twenty fifth. While the moon is down,

526
00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:59,719
the Ebro Army, consisting of the fifth and fifteenth Army

527
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,559
Corps or crosses the Ebro River at low points or

528
00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:07,039
via assault boats, pontoon bridges, and some established crossings along

529
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:11,000
the river's eastern bulge, where Aragon and Catalonia meet a

530
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:15,519
natural border defined by the river and surrounding mountains at Amposta.

531
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,400
To the south near the river and near the sea,

532
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,159
where the river is wider and swifter. A secondary assault

533
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:25,440
by the fourteenth International Brigade fails after eighteen hours of combat.

534
00:38:26,199 --> 00:38:29,679
By July twenty sixth, the northern assault advances three miles

535
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,960
west and at the Great Eastward Bulge twenty one miles northwest,

536
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:40,840
deep into mountainous territory. Nationalists reinforcements sweep in with eight

537
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,320
divisions and more than two hundred and forty aircraft to

538
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,360
encircle and hold the oncoming Republican troops, driving them off

539
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,559
the navigable roads and destroying their vehicles. Republican infantry and

540
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:55,000
tanks arrive via the northern route on the outskirts of

541
00:38:55,039 --> 00:38:59,000
their target, the town of Gondesa, a great crossroads by

542
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,760
which they hope to break through the narrow national assilient

543
00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:06,760
and reach Republican territory to the west. Their ultimate delusion,

544
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,679
you comment, delusional goal. Yeah, it's to either it's to

545
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,400
either secure concessions by forcing the surrender of trapped nationalist

546
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,400
forces along the coastline, or to reinforce Madrid and hold

547
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,000
that for net for international support.

548
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely delusional. They were. They were cut off from

549
00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:31,679
the Valencia. Valencia was not quite encircled, but the eastern, eastern,

550
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:38,400
and northern areas where were very heavily fortified, not fortified,

551
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,920
but surrounded by nationalist troops who were attacking. The breakout

552
00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:46,920
was very ill conceived. And so what looking at a map,

553
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,480
there's essentially this bulge that I describe where you could

554
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,360
see at the farthest westernmost point they made it about

555
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,400
three miles and then going up, if you count going

556
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,920
up through the bulge, twenty one miles northwest. So again

557
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,320
they're trapped in the mountains in this little tiny point

558
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,719
with hundreds of thousands of men there, and it's just

559
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:15,239
a horrifically idiotic attempt, last attempt for an assault.

560
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, people should understand. Books have been written just about this.

561
00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:24,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the action in my novel like one of

562
00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:28,719
the most pivotal points takes place during this operation, just

563
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:34,039
because it's so incredibly interesting and it's very scenic and beautiful.

564
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: Too down there, they are too late. General Franco orders

565
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,039
the Ebro River dams at Tremp and Camarasa open. The

566
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:47,079
deluge takes the Republican pontoon boats out of action for

567
00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:50,280
four days, and the bridge's supply lines and truck depots

568
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,360
along the river are bombed and straighted by Nationalist aviation.

569
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,000
While trucks make it across the bridges, telling artillery and

570
00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:00,239
transporting troops, they are not able to establish the apply

571
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,800
lines back across the river and are destroyed in great numbers,

572
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:07,119
as are the supporting gun batteries and supply depots on

573
00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:11,280
the eastern side of the river. Only twenty two tanks

574
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,400
and a small number of artillery pieces had crossed the Ebro,

575
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,960
and nearly eighty thousand Republican troops now trapped west of

576
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,719
the river have only the supplies they can carry to

577
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,360
survive in the heat of the Spanish summer. Republican engineers

578
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,239
focus upon restoring their pontoon bridges every night, only for

579
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,440
them to be destroyed the next day and within a

580
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,280
few days Republican forces are completely trapped within the pocket

581
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,199
and cut off from their supply lines across the river.

582
00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:42,440
Not that they would have been permitted to retreat. To

583
00:41:42,519 --> 00:41:45,400
the communist leadership, desperate for the propaganda value of a

584
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:51,599
decisive victory, only attack was permitted, and you put, lol, well.

585
00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's insane, but they were basically like, do

586
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:57,840
not come back, or we'll shoot at you. There were

587
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:03,559
several points where that made that they relaxed that later

588
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:07,800
on after they got spanked so badly, but it was

589
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,119
it's really just insane and shows who you're talking about.

590
00:42:11,159 --> 00:42:15,280
There was no strategic value or chance of this succeeding.

591
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:21,599
Just completely delusional. And that's where the that's where the

592
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:26,920
argument about the attack probably being somewhat allowed to happen,

593
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,800
you know, versus it being such a big surprise, because

594
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,719
I mean, it's one of those things that people will

595
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:39,360
debate forever, you know, but it it just seems so

596
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:45,639
such an obviously stupid operation. But they, you know, thanks

597
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:50,480
to you know, aviation surveillance and the like, you know,

598
00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:52,360
plenty knew that it was going to happen.

599
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,679
Speaker 1: Republican forces never breakthrough and said Agandessa and suffer heavy

600
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,880
cashes as its outskirts and hills immediately overlooking the town.

601
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,400
Thanks to the season, Nationalist militaries combined to arms attack.

602
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,920
By August, most of the Republic's aircraft are swept from

603
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,519
the sky and the Nationalists achieved total air superiority. The

604
00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:18,000
first Nationalist counter offensive is launched against a small northernmost

605
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:23,360
pocket near Fayone, which drives entrenched Republicans across the river

606
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,719
at a loss of nine hundred men and two hundred

607
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,880
precious brand new machine guns. The next day, August eleventh,

608
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,400
the Nationalists drive into the Pandul's mountain range and capture

609
00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:38,039
much of the high ground. The Ebro dams are opened again,

610
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,199
destroying the remaining pontoon bridges, and six Nationalist divisions sweep

611
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,440
into the height heights of Geta over five days of fighting.

612
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:51,239
At this point, Franco's ally Mussolini, fingers clenched no doubt

613
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,960
in a rude gesture, states to Franco does not know

614
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,159
how to make war and doesn't want to, unlike Mussolini,

615
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:02,159
and you put too soon. Franco's strategy secures peace in

616
00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:05,159
this country for nearly forty years, as the enemies of

617
00:44:05,159 --> 00:44:08,119
Spain or blasted a machine gun in the mountains over

618
00:44:08,159 --> 00:44:11,920
the next three months. On September twenty first, the International Brigades,

619
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,400
so those who are still alive, throw their hands up

620
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,119
and formally withdraw from Spain, having sustained twenty five percent

621
00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:21,960
fatalities in their two years in Spain. Is that s

622
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:22,440
for spit?

623
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, okay that yeah, yeah, that was the operation.

624
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:34,000
The International Brigades were always used as shock troops. If

625
00:44:34,039 --> 00:44:37,480
you'll recall in that the very first like two days

626
00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:41,880
of one of their units getting to Madrid, they had

627
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,119
something like twenty five percent fatalities or casualties in two days.

628
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,920
They were always the ones thrown into the assault because

629
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:56,159
they were under basically under command of Soviet fanatics, Communist

630
00:44:56,679 --> 00:45:02,079
commissars and officers who saw them as completely disposable. It

631
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:08,920
was international Bolshevism, you know, just taking their lives and

632
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,440
throwing them into this fight. The very end of them

633
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:18,159
was the Battle of the Ebro, and they just the leadership,

634
00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:21,559
they were completely broken by this. No that there was

635
00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:24,679
no way that they could get more people to volunteer.

636
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,199
They couldn't get people to go back. They were if

637
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,679
you read any of the records written in the memoirs

638
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,559
written by those people who I do not speak of

639
00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:41,599
in high esteem. They were just completely shattered by this.

640
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:45,880
It was stupid and they just got annihilated.

641
00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:51,559
Speaker 1: By November sixteenth, the last Republican forces on the right

642
00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:57,880
bank of the Ebro escape at Flicks. Both sides suffer

643
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,239
massive casualties in the Battle of Ebro. Although the figures

644
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,920
are difficult to estimate, it's likely that Republican casualties number

645
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,039
seventy five thousand, with thirty thousand dead. Additionally, the majority

646
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:11,920
of the military relevant arms in Catalonia are lost in

647
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,480
the battle. The Nationalists too, take approximately sixty thousand casualties,

648
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,440
though almost certainly fewer than ten thousand dead. But among

649
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,679
them are their very best frontline officers, and their armor

650
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,119
and trucks are severely worn out from the tempo of

651
00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:29,320
mountain maneuver and combat.

652
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that can't be understated, just because again these are

653
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:41,519
hardened veterans that had mastered these combined arms operations rapid response.

654
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:46,519
They were just worn out. So things get quiet for

655
00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:49,199
a while while everyone kind of retools.

656
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: The Condor Legion withdraws most of its ground forces from

657
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,320
the field and shifts a significant portion of their air

658
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,519
crews to Germany due to tensions Andkloslovakia. There we go, yep,

659
00:47:04,159 --> 00:47:07,679
German a's German aid is paused in mid September as

660
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,480
Germany and Spain negotiate compensation. They settle upon granting Germany

661
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:17,360
an interest in the output of Spanish minds. New aircraft

662
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,840
BF one oh nine ease H, E one eleven e's

663
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:24,920
and j's and HS one twenty six a's reinforce the

664
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,440
legion and enable it to close out the war in

665
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,960
a primary aviation role, and the older equipment is sold

666
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,800
to Spain during the legion before the legion returns to

667
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,960
Germany in May nineteen thirty nine.

668
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of the most modern German equipment is

669
00:47:41,679 --> 00:47:47,719
being proven in combat but is then handed off to

670
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,960
the Spanish. Sold to the Spanish because again like there's

671
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,800
more coming out of German factories and the latest and

672
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:00,920
greatest is always coming and they're iterating based on their

673
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,440
operational observations in Spain.

674
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 1: After rest repair and restructuring, fresh troops are brought in

675
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:16,360
for the invasion of Catalonia in late December nineteen thirty nine,

676
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,599
Catalonia is captured against hardly any resistance. By early February,

677
00:48:21,039 --> 00:48:24,199
hundreds of thousands of Spanish refugees crowded the camps in

678
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,360
southern France. February twenty seventh, the UK and France formally

679
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:35,039
recognized the Franco government. March fifth, the Republican army rises

680
00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:40,360
against the Prime Minister Nagnin and forms the National Defense

681
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,960
Council to negotiate peace with Franco. Communist troops in Madrid

682
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,880
attempts to continue the war or squashed in street fighting

683
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:53,800
by their former allies. March twenty sixth, the Nationalists advance

684
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,920
from all sides towards Madrid. March twenty eighth. Madrid surrenders

685
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:04,960
almost bloodlessly. March thirty first, the Nationalists control all Spanish territory.

686
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,639
April first, Franco proclaims Legeda s Alfinale the war is

687
00:49:11,679 --> 00:49:14,559
at its end after accepting the surrender of the last

688
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:23,679
Republican forces. The cost combat dead figures vary but range

689
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,000
between one hundred and fifty and two hundred thousand killed

690
00:49:27,039 --> 00:49:36,519
in action on both sides both sides. Ramon Salas Larnzaba

691
00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:42,079
Larnzabals authoritative nineteen seventy seven study calculates one hundred and

692
00:49:42,079 --> 00:49:46,280
sixty five thousand, three hundred and sixty seven total combat dead.

693
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:54,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lorenzo bal is very interesting. There's several websites online

694
00:49:54,119 --> 00:50:00,719
with his records and methodology in them, his sources for everything.

695
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,320
He used every source that he could find and went

696
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,320
through Spanish records, just an exhausting minutia. And he also

697
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,960
compared it to pre war and post war numbers, where

698
00:50:15,039 --> 00:50:18,079
he wasn't like one hundred percent sure. So when you

699
00:50:18,119 --> 00:50:20,800
when you talk about the cost of the war, it's

700
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,960
a big topic, and so he's pretty much the best

701
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,360
source that I've seen. And what keeps happening, and I

702
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,480
think we talked about this a little bit last time,

703
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:36,599
is that you know, the during this truth and reconciliation

704
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,800
regime that's taking place in Spain, they'll say, oh, well,

705
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,480
we think that these are you know, we're going to

706
00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:46,159
lean on what the Republican numbers were, and then as

707
00:50:46,159 --> 00:50:48,960
they actually go through and reconcile it, it just squares

708
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:52,920
up with the numbers that Larenzepal put together, you know,

709
00:50:53,519 --> 00:50:54,679
almost fifty years ago.

710
00:50:55,159 --> 00:51:00,599
Speaker 1: So I think most people would be if you look

711
00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:04,079
at that number, one hundred and sixty five thousand in

712
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,519
just a civil war in Spain, in Europe, in Europe

713
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:15,599
in the twentieth century. That's I mean world War two

714
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:20,679
obviously we don't could be forty million, could be twenty million. Yeah, yeah,

715
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,519
it's impossible to tell. But this warm up, I mean,

716
00:51:25,559 --> 00:51:27,519
this is basically you know, what I like to refer

717
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:30,840
to as World War one and a half is just

718
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,719
absolute insanity.

719
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 2: And the total population from zero to one hundred Right

720
00:51:39,639 --> 00:51:42,199
of Spain at the time was about twenty five million.

721
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: Executions and murders sles. Lorenzo bal calculates that from nineteen

722
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,480
thirty six to nineteen thirty nine there were seventy two thousand,

723
00:51:55,559 --> 00:51:59,960
three hundred and forty four non combat executions and murders

724
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:04,960
in Republican territory. In national Spain from nineteen thirty six

725
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,159
to nineteen fifty the figure was fifty seven, six hundred

726
00:52:08,199 --> 00:52:11,599
and sixty two, with sixteen thousand, seven hundred and sixty

727
00:52:11,599 --> 00:52:15,960
three judicially governed executions in the first two years of

728
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,920
the war and five eight hundred seventy eight more over

729
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:24,039
the next ten years. Non hysterical academics such as Bevore

730
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,320
used these figures.

731
00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very important because, like you notice, I made

732
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:38,000
a distinction the nationalists, there were just like executions and murders,

733
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:45,079
you know, with no judicial procedure, and then there were

734
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:50,519
pretty severe judicial procedure numbers that followed. But again, these

735
00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:54,920
are being carried out against the people that largely committed

736
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:59,840
these atrocities on the other side. So it's like if

737
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,800
you find someone that murdered ten people and you shoot

738
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:08,280
him after a fair trial, that's a number that's here.

739
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,800
But like good right.

740
00:53:11,679 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, additional civilian dead again per Siles Lorenzebal, taking

741
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,159
into account demographic comparisons over long stretches of time to

742
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,679
exclude projected deaths due to natural causes, accidents, typical losses

743
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:31,119
from disease, et cetera, and verified against documented wartime records,

744
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,440
he arrives at an excess loss of three hundred thousand

745
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,679
civilian lives due to disease, hunger, lack of medicine, et cetera,

746
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:44,679
which would have been avoidable in peacetime. Interestingly, nineteen thirty

747
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,840
five under the Republic had significantly elevated death due to

748
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,360
hunger and disease in southern Spain, likely related to the

749
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:56,360
disruption caused by land reform and resulting poor harvests. Interestingly,

750
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:01,280
silest Lorenzebal notes that the otherwise expected five hundred and

751
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,599
fifty seven one hundred and eighty five children calculated to

752
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,360
not having been born during the war years hurt Spanish

753
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,960
demographics far worse than the losses from all other causes.

754
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 2: And so if you think about what that means when

755
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:22,320
you talk about unjust like, look at our situation demographically

756
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:27,519
in America right now you have crime, elevated crime and murder,

757
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:33,360
right you have massive suicide, drug overdoses, deaths related to that,

758
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,320
deaths of despair. Right think of all the people that

759
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,840
are that are not having children right now because of

760
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,800
the hell that a certain group of people are pushing

761
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,800
on us and what that does to us and our strength.

762
00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:55,760
So when you get revenge, theoretically, lawfully, legally, keep that

763
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,679
in mind as well. We should have double the numbers

764
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:00,320
that we have.

765
00:55:00,119 --> 00:55:07,519
Speaker 1: Have refugees, excluding those who fled Spain at their own

766
00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:11,039
accord before or during the war. About five hundred thousand

767
00:55:11,039 --> 00:55:13,840
Spanish became refugees in the final days of the war,

768
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,480
with four hundred and fifty thousand fleeing Catalonia for France.

769
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:21,920
In February nineteen thirty nine, the French separated military age

770
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,719
men from the civilians and established open air internment camps.

771
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,800
Over time, refugees were redistributed to different facilities. About three

772
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,760
hundred thousand refugees returned to Spain within a few months,

773
00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:37,239
where they were sorted by the Franco regime between innocent

774
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,599
civilians and those destined for internment camps, labor battalions or prisons.

775
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,639
These returnees were handled according to their role in the war,

776
00:55:46,199 --> 00:55:50,039
with those who committed atrocities executed, while mere participants in

777
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:54,360
the war, draftees and generic leftists saw their sentences quickly commuted.

778
00:55:55,079 --> 00:55:57,760
About thirty thousand of the refugees who remained in France

779
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,239
soon emigrated to Latin America, with most going to Mexico.

780
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:03,559
One hundred and sixty to one hundred and eighty thousand

781
00:56:03,639 --> 00:56:07,440
remained in France and labor of battalions. Thousands of communists

782
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,159
and anarchist militants enjoyed the hospitality of the concentration camps

783
00:56:11,159 --> 00:56:15,440
of the VSCHI and German governments. The Soviet Union accepted

784
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,639
a few thousand prominent Republican communists, but not the Hoi POLOI.

785
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I remember you were talking about Mexico last time. Yep,

786
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:33,320
that's that. Mexican government brought in quite a few of

787
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:40,719
these refugees, and most of the anarchists from Catalonia ended

788
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,039
up in Mexico. I mean, take that with a grain

789
00:56:45,079 --> 00:56:48,679
of salt. But of the ones who wrote memoirs, an

790
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,519
awful lot of them ended up coming back to France,

791
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,719
you know, after World War Two, or just stayed in Mexico.

792
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,960
But huge numbers of those kind of apparatchic and members

793
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,760
of the government and talking heads who could not go

794
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:12,000
back to Spain under Franco ended up in Mexico. Yeah.

795
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 1: I wonder how many of them went and said hello

796
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:15,920
to mister Trotsky.

797
00:57:17,159 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 2: Probably an awful lot of them.

798
00:57:22,119 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: April fourteenth, Pious the Twelfth addresses the Spanish faithful with

799
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,320
immense joy. With great joy, we address you, most dear

800
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,679
children of Catholic Spain, to address to you our fatherly

801
00:57:34,719 --> 00:57:37,800
congratulations for the gift of peace and a victory with

802
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,360
which God is deemed worthy to crown the Christian heroism

803
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,159
of your faith and charity tried in so many and

804
00:57:44,199 --> 00:57:49,519
so generous sufferings. Our predecessor A venerable memory, expected with

805
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:53,480
longing and trust, this providential peace, which is undoubtedly the

806
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,239
fruit of that copious blessing which He sent in the

807
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,760
very beginning of the struggle to all those who have

808
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:03,039
devoted themselves to the difficult and dangerous task of defending

809
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:05,480
and restoring the rights and honor of God and religion.

810
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,119
And we do not doubt that this space shall be

811
00:58:08,199 --> 00:58:11,960
the one that He himself foretold. Since then, the sign

812
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,039
of a future of tranquility and order, and of honor

813
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:19,440
and prosperity, the designs of Providence most beloved children, have

814
00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:23,079
once again dawned over. Heroic Spain, the nation chosen by

815
00:58:23,159 --> 00:58:25,800
God as the main instrument of the evangelization of the

816
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,159
new world and as an impregnable fortress of the Catholic Faith,

817
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:33,039
has just shown to the apostles of materialistic atheism of

818
00:58:33,079 --> 00:58:35,920
our century the greatest evidence that the eternal values of

819
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,880
religion and of the spirits stand above all things. The

820
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,079
tenacious propaganda and the constant efforts of the enemies of

821
00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:46,320
Jesus Christ seem to have desired to try in Spain

822
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,599
a supreme experiment of the dissolving forces which they have

823
00:58:50,039 --> 00:58:52,719
at their disposal. Throughout the world. And even though it

824
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,719
is true that the Almighty has for now not allowed

825
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,679
them to achieve their goal, he has at least tolerated

826
00:58:58,679 --> 00:59:01,480
some of their terrible effects, so that the world could

827
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:06,119
see how religious persecution, undermining the very basis of justice

828
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:09,199
and charity, which are love for God and respect for

829
00:59:09,239 --> 00:59:13,800
His Holy Law, may drag modern societies unthinkable abysses of evil,

830
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,760
destruction and passionate discord. Convince of this truth. The same

831
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,239
Spanish people, with the two marks characteristic of their most

832
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:24,920
noble spirit, which your generosity and frankness, rose up determinedly

833
00:59:25,679 --> 00:59:29,199
in defense of the ideals of Christian faith and civilization,

834
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,519
deeply rooted in the Spanish soil, and aided by God

835
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,239
who does not abandon those who hope in Him, could

836
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,559
resist the push as Judah thirteen and seventeen. Sorry, Protestants

837
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,079
could resist a push for those who deceived by what

838
00:59:44,199 --> 00:59:47,760
they believed to be a humanitarian ideal of the exultation

839
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,880
of the meek, truly fought only for atheism. Yes, the

840
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,920
primordial mean, the primordial meaning of your victory makes us

841
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,599
dwell in the most promising hopes that God, in his

842
00:59:59,679 --> 01:00:03,920
mercy will deign lead Spain from the safe path through

843
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,559
the safe path of its traditional and Catholic grandeur, which

844
01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:11,360
will be the point that will guide all Spaniards who

845
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,280
love their religion and their fatherland, in an effort to

846
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,400
organize the life of the nation in perfect harmony with

847
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,440
its most noble history of Catholic faith, piety, and civilization.

848
01:00:23,079 --> 01:00:26,039
We thus exhort the authorities and shepherds of Catholic Spain,

849
01:00:26,079 --> 01:00:29,039
who enlighten the mind of those who were deceived, showing

850
01:00:29,079 --> 01:00:33,599
them lovingly the roots of materialism and secularism from which

851
01:00:33,639 --> 01:00:36,920
their errors and wrongful acts came forth, and from which

852
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,519
they could spring forth again, proposed to them the principles

853
01:00:40,519 --> 01:00:44,039
of individual and social justice, without which the peace and

854
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:48,159
prosperity of nations, as mighty as they may be, cannot subsist,

855
01:00:48,239 --> 01:00:50,840
and which are those contained in the Holy Gospel and

856
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:56,239
the doctrine of the Church. We do not doubt that

857
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,440
it will happen thus, and the basis for our firm

858
01:00:59,519 --> 01:01:03,000
hope are the most noble and Christian sentiments of which

859
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:06,360
the Chief of State and so many gentlemen his faithful collaborators,

860
01:01:06,639 --> 01:01:12,199
have given unequivocal, unequivocal evidence, with the legal protection which

861
01:01:12,239 --> 01:01:15,239
they have granted to the supreme religious and social interests.

862
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,159
According to the teachings of the Apostolic See. The same

863
01:01:19,239 --> 01:01:24,280
hope is also founded upon the enlightened zeal and abnegation

864
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,519
of your bishops and priests, tempered by pain, and also

865
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:30,760
in the faith, piety and spirit of sacrifice, of which

866
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,039
in terrible hours all classes of Spanish society gave heroic proof.

867
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,320
And now before the remembrance of the mounting ruins of

868
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,159
the bloodiest civil war recorded in the history of modern times,

869
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,920
we with prize regard bow our head above all to

870
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,239
the holy memory of the bishops, priests, religious of both sexes,

871
01:01:48,559 --> 01:01:51,599
and faithful of all ages and conditions, who, in such

872
01:01:51,639 --> 01:01:55,000
an elevated number, sealed with blood their faith in Jesus

873
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:58,119
Christ and their love for the Catholic of religion major

874
01:01:58,239 --> 01:02:06,239
ofm Hac Delict deliction, haven't taken a lot habit def

875
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:11,840
nemo habit greater love than this no man hath John

876
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:17,840
fifteen thirteen. We also acknowledge our debt of gratitude towards

877
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:22,000
all those who sacrifice themselves, even under heroism, in defense

878
01:02:22,039 --> 01:02:25,039
of the unalienable rights of God and of religion. Either

879
01:02:25,039 --> 01:02:27,719
in the battlefields or devoted to the sublime work of

880
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,599
Christian charity in prisons and hospitals. We cannot hide the

881
01:02:31,639 --> 01:02:34,639
bitter sorrow that the remembrance of so many innocent children, who,

882
01:02:35,119 --> 01:02:37,280
having been ripped from their homes, were taken to far

883
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,239
away lands, often in danger of apostasy and perversion. We

884
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,920
desire nothing more ardently than to see them return to

885
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,440
the bosom of their families, where they will once again

886
01:02:46,519 --> 01:02:49,760
find the warm and Christian tenderness of their own. And

887
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,840
those others who, as prodigal sons, wish to return to

888
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,159
the house of the Father, we doubt not they will

889
01:02:55,199 --> 01:02:58,880
be welcomed with goodwill and love. It falls upon you,

890
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,400
venerable brothers of the Episcopate Episcopate, to advise all, so

891
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:08,039
that in their policy of pacification, all will follow the

892
01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:10,880
principles taught by the Church, and proclaim with such nobility

893
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:15,239
by the General Lissimo general Liismo, of justice for crime

894
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:20,679
and of lenient generosity for the mistaken. Our solicitude, also,

895
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,239
as a father, cannot forget these deceived ones whom a

896
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:29,960
deceitful and perverse propaganda succeeded in enticing with praise and promises.

897
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:34,320
Your pastoral solicitude should be targeted at them with patience

898
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,360
and meekness, Pray for them, seek them, lead them again

899
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,679
to the regenerative bosom of the Church and to the

900
01:03:39,719 --> 01:03:42,719
warmth of the fatherland, and lead them to the merciful Father,

901
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,719
who awaits them with open arms. Therefore, most dear children,

902
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,079
says the rainbow of Peace, as returned to brighten the

903
01:03:49,079 --> 01:03:51,880
heavens of Spain. Let us come together heartily in a

904
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,719
fervent hymn of thanksgiving to the God of Peace, and

905
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,559
in a prayer of forgiveness and mercy for all those

906
01:03:57,559 --> 01:04:00,519
who perished. And in order that this peace be fruitful

907
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,880
and long lasting, we exhort you with all the fervor

908
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,960
of our heart to keep the unity of the Spirit

909
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,079
in the bond of peace. Ephesians four two through three. Thus, united,

910
01:04:11,119 --> 01:04:17,239
in obedient to your venerable Episcopate, Episcopate, devote yourselves joyfully

911
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,199
and with no delay to the urgent work of reconstruction,

912
01:04:20,639 --> 01:04:23,679
which God and the Fatherland expect from you. As a

913
01:04:23,679 --> 01:04:26,559
pledge of the copious graces which the Immaculate Virgin and

914
01:04:26,679 --> 01:04:30,320
Saint James the Apostle patrons of Spain shall obtain for you,

915
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:33,199
and which the great Spanish saints have merited for you,

916
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,800
we bestow upon you our dear children of Catholic Spain,

917
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,719
upon the Chief of State and his illustrious government, upon

918
01:04:39,719 --> 01:04:44,960
the zealous Episcopate and their selfless clergy, upon the heroic combatants,

919
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,119
and upon all the faithful, our Apostolic Blessing Pious to

920
01:04:49,159 --> 01:04:53,840
twelfth Paxing Christe Victoria eterna Amen.

921
01:04:55,639 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 2: And I had to close it with that, because after

922
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,679
you look at all the numbers, after you hear about

923
01:05:04,039 --> 01:05:09,599
just brutal combat all over the whole country, Spain was

924
01:05:09,639 --> 01:05:13,559
a smoking hole in the ground. Spain wasn't in a

925
01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:16,719
position to do anything other than what they did, which

926
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:21,840
is to buckle down and dig their way out, you know,

927
01:05:22,119 --> 01:05:28,679
establish or or continue relationships with countries that they had

928
01:05:28,719 --> 01:05:36,360
good relationships with, and you know, do what they could.

929
01:05:37,119 --> 01:05:40,599
They weren't in a position to, you know, get involved

930
01:05:40,599 --> 01:05:44,039
in another war, nor was there an appetite for it.

931
01:05:44,719 --> 01:05:48,360
There were there were volunteers, there were quite heroic volunteers

932
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:53,119
for the Blue Division, but they were volunteers. They were

933
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:58,400
permitted to go, and they came home and lived safely

934
01:05:58,519 --> 01:06:04,039
and in peace, and many other veterans of the Waffen

935
01:06:04,199 --> 01:06:08,000
ss and and other groups were permitted to live peacefully

936
01:06:08,039 --> 01:06:12,320
in Spain by the Spanish government. But they stayed out

937
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:18,880
of the next war because Franco removed his sort of

938
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:25,320
victory from his belt and placed it on the altar

939
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:32,679
on the victory celebration day and vowed never to pick

940
01:06:32,719 --> 01:06:38,639
it up again unless Spain was threatened. And people can say, well,

941
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:45,679
look at look at Spain, now, look at the West now, YadA, YadA, Okay, Well,

942
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:52,079
Spain was in peace and governed under his dictates, and

943
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:59,159
the church flourished and still flourishes in Spain, and that

944
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:05,280
was is primary duty. There's an argument out there that

945
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:11,039
the logical conclusion of is that Germany lost the war

946
01:07:11,079 --> 01:07:13,559
because Spain wasn't on their side, which is a very

947
01:07:13,599 --> 01:07:17,360
strange thing to say, but that's kind of the logical

948
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,519
conclusion of many of the things that are said about.

949
01:07:21,599 --> 01:07:25,360
You know, what Spain did collectively as a nation after

950
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,360
the war, which was too you know, continue to send

951
01:07:29,559 --> 01:07:34,239
steel to in other minerals to Germany and make some

952
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:37,159
weapons for them, and other than that, you know, and

953
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:41,519
allow certainly way with things but also not go totally

954
01:07:41,599 --> 01:07:44,559
under the thumb of the British or anyone else and

955
01:07:44,639 --> 01:07:48,400
just kind of ride it out and enjoy some peace.

956
01:07:48,679 --> 01:07:53,320
So I just wanted to point out the stakes. And

957
01:07:53,559 --> 01:07:58,360
you can't a fervent Catholic cannot go against the you

958
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:04,519
know that heavy, that heavy blessing with a with a

959
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,000
you know, now we know how to behave ourselves, don't we,

960
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,679
according to the precepts of the religion that you follow.

961
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,000
So hence, hence the way I wanted that to wrap up.

962
01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you remember there there were more than a

963
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:28,000
few people who fought the war valiant, valiantly, who would

964
01:08:28,039 --> 01:08:33,159
have faced the rope, and Franco brought them in and

965
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:35,640
protected them and let them live out their lives in Spain.

966
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And it was a sticking point with the Allies,

967
01:08:40,159 --> 01:08:44,479
but he didn't care because they didn't they didn't have,

968
01:08:45,239 --> 01:08:48,039
you know, the leverage to do anything about it, and

969
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:54,439
it wasn't worth stirring up. So and they're very nice blessings.

970
01:08:54,600 --> 01:09:00,720
It's it makes a someone a silly prot like my self, like,

971
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:07,279
look at our tradition, which is schism and uh, people

972
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:09,640
with a lot of goo in their hair and and

973
01:09:10,079 --> 01:09:15,159
jeans with embroidery on the pockets and guitars apparently, and

974
01:09:15,199 --> 01:09:20,239
then you hear that just heavy like laden with emotion.

975
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:28,720
Ah prayer slash congratulatory speech. It's it's just something else.

976
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:36,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and calls for reconciliation, all forgiveness and ye mercy.

977
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:41,800
Yeah yeah, all right, let's uh let's wrap this up.

978
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,640
Please do your your plugs, tell people where they can

979
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:47,439
find your stuff, and I'll make sure to include them

980
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:48,239
into the show notes.

981
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:52,560
Speaker 2: Great, thank you, Uh Carldall dot substack dot com is

982
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:59,640
where most of my writing is. I have many narrative

983
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:04,039
essays and I have some of my fiction there. You

984
01:10:04,039 --> 01:10:07,800
can buy buy book Faction with the Crusaders, which is

985
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:15,359
a story about a American who ends up volunteering for

986
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,720
the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. You can get

987
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:24,239
that on Amazon. There's links in my substack to that.

988
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:30,159
There's a sample first chapter as well, which actually is

989
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,960
in the Drive to the South as part of the

990
01:10:34,039 --> 01:10:37,159
Aragon Offensive. That's the first chapter and that story's in there.

991
01:10:38,199 --> 01:10:42,600
Lots of fun combined to arms operations and uh yeah,

992
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,920
I'm on Twitter too, although I'm not a Twitter enthusiast.

993
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,479
Cowdio doll. You'll be able to find me. There's some

994
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,680
numbers in there. It sucks, but you'll be able to

995
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,399
You'll be able to find me under Carl Dahl cowdo

996
01:10:55,520 --> 01:11:02,079
doll on Twitter or excuse me X, the platform formerly

997
01:11:02,119 --> 01:11:04,159
known as Twitter stupidly renamed X.

998
01:11:05,359 --> 01:11:08,199
Speaker 1: Thanks Pete, all right man, thank you having good evening.

999
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:09,119
Speaker 2: Thanks you too,