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True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:42.439 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.159 Kod Ething. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 32 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:56.959 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 33 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.400 history and the authors that have written about them while 34 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.400 the mid By the mid nineties, women began begin disappearing 35 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.240 from Vancouver's East Side street prostitutes, drug users, the most 36 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:14.159 vulnerable and desperate of women vanishing from the streets. Not 37 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:18.120 until the year two thousand, the police began closing in 38 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:21.840 on Robert Willie Picton, who soon would pique the world's 39 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.879 interest as one of the most prolific, shocking and bizarre 40 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:28.360 serial killers of all time. Stevie Cameron, an award winning 41 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:31.840 investigative journalist and best selling author, decided to write about 42 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:34.680 and report about this case, and the result was two books, 43 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.439 The Picton Files and Now The definitive, never before heard, 44 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.639 incredibly shocking story of Robert Willie Picton. His murder victims, 45 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:46.000 the lucky ones who escape death, the investigators that worked 46 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:51.319 the case, the entire fascinating story on the Farm William 47 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.599 Picton in the Tragic Story of Vancouver's Missing Women, with 48 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:58.520 my special guest, journalist and author Stevie Cameron. Welcome to 49 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.439 the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to 50 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:01.800 this interview. Stevie Cameron. 51 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:04.400 Thank you, Dan, I'm really happy to be with you. 52 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.240 Well, thank you very much. It's going to be a 53 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:08.520 great thrill for me. It's going to be a great 54 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:14.960 program for our audience. They very much anticipated this program absolutely. 55 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:19.719 Now you're investigative journalist and very successful author, having written 56 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:23.000 about Canada's Prime Minister Brown Maroney and his years in 57 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:26.800 politics called On the Take and The Last Amigo, a 58 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:31.199 book about Carhein Scriber Schreiber, the German Canadian arms dealer 59 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.759 and part of the airbus scandal, and you founded a 60 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:40.840 critically acclaimed national magazine ELM Street. What exactly was it 61 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:44.039 about this case and this story that made you want 62 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.240 to write two books, The pict In Files and now 63 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.400 on the Farm. What compelled you to write and want 64 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:52.280 to write about this particular case. 65 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:56.280 Well, it actually wasn't my idea. I mean, you're quite 66 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:59.599 right when you say that. I was a political journalist 67 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:04.319 and I wrote, I'm a white collar crime person. You know. 68 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:08.400 I'm interested in corrupt politicians and how they steal and 69 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:10.879 how they hide it and why they do it and 70 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.960 where they get it, and why they never get charged 71 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.399 and why they never get arrested, why they never go 72 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:20.800 to prison. So I've done a lot of those. I've 73 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:24.399 done five books like that. And then all of a sudden, 74 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:26.639 my agent called me and said, how would you like 75 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:29.079 to write a book on the Picton case? And I said, 76 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:32.759 you can't be serious, and she said, yeah, I come 77 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:36.839 out wants you come out here in Canada, as it 78 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:43.120 is in the United States is a publishing company owned 79 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:47.759 by Random House and so it was a wonderful, wonderful company. 80 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:49.839 And she said they would like you to do a 81 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:52.040 book on the Picton case. And I said I'll do it, 82 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:54.480 and she said, no, no, no, that's not what you 83 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:58.120 are I'm just offering, and I have a responsibility to 84 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:01.000 tell you what they want you to do. But this 85 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.000 isn't the kind of thing you do, and I think 86 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:06.800 it might be a mistake. I said, no, no, I'm 87 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:11.800 going to do it? Why because it's so interesting, Because 88 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.920 I said, I I feel I just can't believe my luck, 89 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:22.959 and she's so finally acquiesced, and I why did I 90 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:28.240 do it? Because I'm interested in criminals and I've got 91 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.279 awfully tired of working on once and never went to jail. 92 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.279 I also lived in Vancouver for many years, and I'm 93 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:36.879 a graduate of the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, so 94 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:42.160 I know the city well. There a lot of family there. 95 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:47.360 And another reason is that many years ago, in my 96 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.879 church in Toronto, I was involved in starting a program 97 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:54.480 to help the homeless in our church and we ran 98 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.720 a shelter there and fed them and found clothes for 99 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.160 them and so on. And I ran that shelter for 100 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.639 seventeen years, and I'm now on a couple of boards 101 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:10.319 that help destitute people and one board that sends food 102 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:12.279 to two hundred and fifty agencies in the city. So 103 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:18.040 I have a long history of experience with homelessness, addiction 104 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:24.399 and the issues around that. So when I knew that 105 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:28.319 the victims were prostitutes, I knew they were destitute. I 106 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.279 knew they lived in terrible places in the downtown East 107 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.160 Side in Vancouver, and in fact, I've commissioned a story 108 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:39.399 on the missing women of Vancouver for my magazine ELM Street. 109 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:42.040 So you know, to me, it was a perfect fit. 110 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:48.399 Did you what did you initially anticipate you would learn 111 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:52.079 from this case, especially considering well, I don't want to 112 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.680 jump ahead, but just considering what you eventually learned about 113 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.959 the entire thing. Was there something that you initially anticipated 114 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.480 you would learn from this, especially given the great information 115 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.240 you did learn? Was there maybe a little naivety in 116 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.720 the beginning, maybe something that tot So you're right. 117 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:10.600 I mean, I didn't know how long it was going 118 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:14.759 to take, and you know, I just jumped right into it. 119 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:17.680 I actually, well, to be fair to myself, I didn't 120 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:19.879 jump right into it. I spent four months, four or 121 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:22.519 five months reading everything I could get my hands on. 122 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:24.120 I said, I'm not going out there till I know 123 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:26.959 what this is about, until I've assembled a list of 124 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.839 people to talk to. And I brought a consultant in 125 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.959 right away, a man called Ron McKay, who was retired 126 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:39.839 Mount Heer RCMP inspector in Canada, and he was the 127 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.519 first Canadian to go to Quantico, the FBI headquarters where 128 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:49.000 they teach people the about serial killers, and they that's 129 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.800 where they trained the profilers, right, and so Ron was 130 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:54.680 the first Canadian to go there, and they took one 131 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.079 more who's also a friend of mine, the following year, 132 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:00.279 and then they closed the program to feigners, I think 133 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.600 for financial reasons. But he was very helpful in suggesting 134 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:07.839 people to talk to. And so finally when I felt, 135 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:09.759 you know, I had a long list of names and 136 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:12.519 I understood the story pretty well, and they had arrested 137 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:16.519 picked him. They rested him in February two thousand and two, 138 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:18.839 and I finally went to Vancouver in August. It took 139 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:21.839 me that long to really wrap my head around the 140 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.759 story and do the research. So I went to Vancouver 141 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:26.439 in August, and by that time I had lined up 142 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:29.480 a lot of people to talk to. And from that 143 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:33.559 time till now, I've lived there part of every year, 144 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.120 sometimes as much as two thirds of the year, sometimes 145 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:39.960 just half a year. And because this thing has taken eight. 146 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:46.279 Years, right now, your incredible book starts with someone named 147 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:51.039 Bill Wilson and who was he and what did he 148 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.679 discover and what was especially unusual about what he did 149 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:56.960 discover and showed police. 150 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:01.919 Well Bill Wilson testified at the preliminary hearing, and that's 151 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:04.320 how we got his story. He also testified again at 152 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:08.360 the I'm sorry he didn't he testified in the trial. 153 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.279 He was he was sort of a whitler. He sold 154 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.519 bird houses and hurligigs and so on. We called him 155 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:22.080 the hurlygig man. He sold these on the roadside near 156 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:27.399 a town called Mission, and that town is probably about 157 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:31.440 twenty miles from the Picton Farm, which is again about 158 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.879 twenty five miles east of Vancouver. So if you think 159 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:37.600 of one road that's along line with Vancouver. And then 160 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:39.960 he was picked and Fimm and foot Coquitlam, and then 161 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.799 there's a place called Mission, and there's a river there 162 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:47.120 that goes into It was a big slew and he 163 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:51.960 found the skull of a woman in the slough and 164 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.679 he reported it to the police rather reluctantly because he 165 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.679 had a criminal record himself and he was a bit 166 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.879 nervous about that. But they overlooked that. They took this 167 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:02.240 skull into Vancouver and they tried to find out who 168 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.159 it was. It was the skull of a woman, and 169 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:06.320 it was really only half a skull. It had been 170 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:12.600 sawn in half vertically and that skull they did a 171 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.679 drawing of, they reconstructed the face. They did it, you know, 172 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.440 they published that face on posters, and nobody recognized her. 173 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.159 She was part to a Native Indian and part white, 174 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:27.159 but nobody knew who she was, and so she was 175 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.759 Jane Doe. They put her skull in a box and 176 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:32.679 put it in a locker and it stayed there for 177 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:37.480 years and years. And the reason that Bill Wilson's discovery 178 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:40.919 was so important was that when they did go on 179 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:45.799 to Picton Fawn and they started finding body parts, they 180 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:50.320 found some of the leg bones of this jain Do 181 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.440 on the farm, and they also found skulls that were 182 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.399 cut in the identical way, you know, to dispose of them. 183 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.600 He cut the skulls in half and he had thrown 184 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:04.360 her skin into the emission slew. And that to this 185 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.759 day nobody knows who she was. She's the one woman 186 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:08.320 they were not able to identify. 187 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:12.679 I just found it very fascinated. The first police officer, 188 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.159 it really didn't, you know, it didn't ring bells or 189 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:21.120 set off bells in our alarms. In his mind, just 190 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:25.720 from the mechanically cut a skull, like you say, very 191 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.720 kind of unusual, I would think, But you say that 192 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:33.240 police didn't really make much of this. They didn't think. 193 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:37.360 They didn't really think aide. And it's interesting. There were 194 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.759 two people who worked on Jane Doe's skull back in 195 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:44.559 nineteen ninety five when they found it. And one was 196 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:48.240 a woman called Tracy Rogers who worked in the reconstruction 197 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.679 of the face so that they could put a poster oute. 198 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:55.720 And she was a forensic anthropologist, very good who was 199 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:00.879 working quite often with the ARCMP the Mountains and British Columbia. 200 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:06.279 And the other person was an RCNP officer called Tim Slay. 201 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:10.279 And both of them knew that this was a homicide 202 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:14.159 back in nineteen ninety five, but they could not find 203 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.000 anyone who knew who she was. They could not reconstruct 204 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.120 the face well enough so the people would identify her. 205 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:23.039 But both of those people, Tim Slay and Tracy Rogers 206 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:25.600 worked on the pickt In case. Many years later they 207 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:27.639 were brought back. You know, it was just because it 208 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.440 was their job, not because of his skull. And finally 209 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.200 Tracy Rogers was able to match the skull and the 210 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.639 bones to this one woman right, and Tim Say worked 211 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:40.960 on it as well. Both of these people. 212 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.799 Now, maybe you can tell us the location where Willie 213 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.320 Pickton's family had property was called a farm, and talk 214 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.519 about it. Technically, I guess you could call the farm. 215 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.799 But maybe you can tell us what really the state 216 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:00.279 of this was, because it wasn't so much of farm, 217 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.519 you say, And who owned the property originally, and what 218 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.559 business was conducted there and who resided there? 219 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:12.120 Okay. The Pictons were an old family in a small 220 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.399 town called Port Coquitlam, which is, as I said, about 221 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:20.759 twenty five miles east of Vancouver. And it's a working 222 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:25.000 class community which had a lot of farms and fishing. 223 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:27.440 And so it was on the Fraser River near the 224 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.440 mouth as of the Frasers that enters the Pacific Ocean 225 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:36.159 in Vancouver. And this family were always hard working, quite poor, 226 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.799 and they had their first farm was right on the 227 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.919 top of a hill, right beside an insane asylum, a 228 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.399 place where the criminally insane were kept. And some of 229 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:49.159 these people who worked on the Picton farm eventually they 230 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.679 sold that place and moved down the hill onto about 231 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.399 to a farm quite nearby in the little town of 232 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:01.080 Port Coquitlam. And Willie had a brother and a sister, 233 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.440 and the parents worked them very hard. These kids went 234 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.360 to school smelling a pig manure. They slapped the pigs 235 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.559 two or three times a day. The animals were allowed 236 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:16.200 in and out of the house, and the children were shunned. 237 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.919 But I had the kids in the school because of 238 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.679 their smell and their poverty and the fact that they 239 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:23.960 didn't fit in. And Willie was always considered a bit slow. 240 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:30.240 He's actually got normal intelligence, but he sort of talks 241 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.519 like Daffy Duck or something. He's got an odd voice, 242 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:38.879 and he's ugly and just very you know it. It 243 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.080 was a terrible situation, and these kids were I shook, 244 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.279 permanently harmed by this. He certainly was. 245 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:50.919 Now, what was Willie Picked in in his life growing up? 246 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:53.440 Through your investigation, what was it really like? 247 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.120 Well, it was very tough. He kept saying. He had 248 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.240 a hard heart life. Willie Picking is one of these 249 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.960 people who loved to but he always tells the same story. 250 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:04.679 And one of the stories he tells him is about 251 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.840 how he was given a baby calf to raise and 252 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:10.639 it was a pet, and one day he came home 253 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:12.399 from school and he couldn't find the calf, and his 254 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.600 mother told him fairly briskly that he should go to 255 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:17.679 the barn. He went to the barn and found his 256 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.000 calf had been slotted and was hanging from a hook 257 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.559 in the barn. And he tells that story again and 258 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.399 again and again. It was obviously a terrible experience for him. 259 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.759 He said, well, you know, that's what happens. But he 260 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:34.159 had that kind of thing happened to him many times. 261 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:38.480 And one of the worst things that happened was the 262 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:42.639 time his younger brother, Dave, had just got his driver's 263 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.600 license and hit a young neighborhood boy on the road 264 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.200 outside the family farm. He ran home to tell his parents, 265 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.360 and his mother told him to take the car. His 266 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.240 mother and father told him to take the truck it 267 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:58.039 was actually a truck to the garage and get it repaired. 268 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:00.919 There was a dint in it, scratches was you know, 269 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.919 there were some problems with it because of the accident. 270 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:05.840 And the mother went out to replace on the road 271 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.240 where the boy was lying and rolled him into a 272 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:11.919 deep flew of water beside the road where he drowned. 273 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:13.000 Wow. 274 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:18.159 And so you know that the Dave Pickton was there 275 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.000 was the assumption that Dave Pickton had just had a 276 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:25.559 bad accident, and he was his license was taken away 277 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:27.039 from it. He wasn't allowed to drive till he was 278 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.720 twenty one. Nobody realized for a long time that the 279 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.840 mother had actually rolled the body into the He was 280 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.279 still alive when he was hit by the by the car, 281 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.600 and the coroner said later he would have lived despite 282 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.200 the injuries when the druk hit him, he would have 283 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.639 he would have lived. So I tell you that story, Dan, 284 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.600 because that is the kind of family right It's been 285 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.360 grew up in. And his brother and sister made great 286 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.320 successes of their lives in business, even though his brother 287 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.840 had a hell of angels want to be and you 288 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.799 know that. 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Ump chumpacasino dot com Noe's necessary weight. 300 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:30.839 We're promitted by mom plus terms and condition to play 301 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.480 whatever details. 302 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.839 And they had a lot of money. Really picked and 303 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:39.039 as a serial killer who was also a millionaire. 304 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.400 Credible. You talk about the Hell's Angels a little bit, 305 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.960 not to really involve them in this at all, but 306 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.799 just certainly that in terms of proximity, the Hell's Angels 307 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.359 were down the street, they had some parties, and then 308 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.759 you talk about Piggy's Palace and the Good Time Society. 309 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.000 Tell our audience a little bit about the Hell's Angels, 310 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:02.680 the parties and the relationship they had with the pict 311 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:08.079 Ins and Picton's idea of kind of capitalizing on their property. 312 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:12.920 And as I mentioned, the Good Time Society that they 313 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:14.160 set up at Piggy's Palace. 314 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:19.359 Well, in those days, this will probably be in the 315 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:24.480 early nineties. Dave Picked and the younger brother very shrewd businessman. 316 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.599 He had a business hauling soil, and he also did 317 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:35.160 demolitions of old buildings, and he had all kinds of 318 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.039 irons and the fire and he kept all his trucks 319 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.839 and so on on the farm property. Willy in the 320 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:44.200 meantime was making a living doing odd jobs, but basically 321 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.519 running a pig slaughtering business. He had pass and so on. 322 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:51.960 But they had lots of money because they were selling 323 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.200 off bits and pieces of their farm for development. And 324 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:57.039 what's very strange about this is if you picture a 325 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.839 narrow strip of farm, it's not even farmland. It's like 326 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:05.160 a junkyard. Frankly, now fourteen acres left surrounded by track hoping, 327 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.920 that's basically and across the street from their place the 328 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.759 two things. One was a Hell's angel's clubhouse and the 329 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.160 other one was a massive small development which and they 330 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:19.799 faced directly on a home depot, so it's very weird. 331 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.240 And down the end of their road they bought more 332 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:27.119 land and that's where they built Piggy's Palace. From Dave's demolitions, 333 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:30.359 he took out a bar in a hotel and he 334 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.960 moved it to this barn and they had parties there. 335 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:38.079 They brought in bands, they had food and it was 336 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.200 raided several times by the police, but a lot of 337 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.200 local politicians loved going there, so they were sort of protected. 338 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:48.079 Willie loved going there and they made a lot of money, 339 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:50.839 but it was basically a place for the Hell's Angels 340 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.640 like to hang out, and so Dave was. As far 341 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:56.240 as I know, he's not a patch member of the 342 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.839 Hell's Angels, but he's certainly a Hell's Angel hanging around 343 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.519 or you know, I don't know quite what level he's reached. 344 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.680 But the Hell's Angels clubhouse was directly across the street 345 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:12.440 from the Picton's home of his farmhouse, and they remained 346 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.119 of the farm land. So was a people would go 347 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.880 to Piggy's Palace and dance and lit in the bands, 348 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:21.640 and then they'd all go back to the Hell's Angels 349 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.680 clubhouse and stay up all night and get drunk, and 350 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:27.119 you know, it was a real scene. And in the 351 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.680 City of Pork equipment had a terrible time trying to 352 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.839 close them down. Eventually they closed down Piggy's Palace, but 353 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.039 the Hell's Angels only sold their clubhouse and moved out 354 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.680 of there after Willie Pickton's The rest was too hot 355 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.240 for them in that area. 356 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.359 Now, did you, I don't know. Did Willie Pickton was 357 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.279 the sole person that resided at the property though, even 358 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.119 though that David picked and his brother and his sister 359 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.000 Linda Wright were actually corners of this property as well, 360 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.279 But was it Willie primarily stayed on the property. 361 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:01.720 Well, his brother was there for a long time, and 362 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.200 the two brothers lived together for a long time after 363 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:08.319 their parents died. And Dave's girlfriends who came, and you know, 364 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.759 he had a series of girlfriends who came, and you know, 365 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:14.359 the first one he had two children buy her. They 366 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.839 all lived together in his house. But Willie and Dave 367 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.319 fought all the time, and finally Dave kicked him out, 368 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.720 and eventually they bought a trailer. First of all, it 369 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.440 was a little motor home, and then they bought a trailer. 370 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:30.279 And so Willie lived in the motorhome at the back 371 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.799 of the property for a while, a couple of years, 372 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.480 and then he bought a trailer and they put it 373 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.319 on a cement pad, and he lived at the back 374 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:42.319 of the property. And he was where he was at 375 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:44.960 the back of this strip of this back of a 376 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.720 sort of rectangular strip. He had a garage workshop and 377 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.680 he still had been motor homes sitting there. And he 378 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:58.039 had another sort of a barn, and he you know, 379 00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.720 he had a bunch of he had a slaughter house 380 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:02.759 for pigs and there was a bit of a pigoty there. 381 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:06.079 It was an incredible mess, all these old cars. He 382 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.279 also traded in old cars and he went to car 383 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:13.759 auctions so he could fix anything. So he was basically 384 00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:17.039 living on the same property as brother. As his brother, 385 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:20.359 but he was at the back. And then just before 386 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:23.559 a year or two before his arrest, Dave moved out 387 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:28.400 bought his own home down near the about a mile away, 388 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.799 and so Willy was alone there. 389 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:37.799 Now you speak about Willy's relationships he talked to He 390 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.480 was guy that was kind of weird, considered creepy. He 391 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.519 had some money, he was very dirty, his hygiene was 392 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:50.240 had a lot to left to desire. What was Willy's 393 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.079 sex life? What did it consist of? He didn't he 394 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.440 didn't much had to have many relationships. So what did 395 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:58.440 his sex life consist of? What was he really like? 396 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.680 Well? I talked to people who knew him well, and 397 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:09.960 he he was he had great desires, but nobody wanted 398 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.319 to go out with Lily and he he patronized the 399 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:17.799 sex shop in Port Coquitlam, where he bought and a 400 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.599 great deal of you know sex what in Canada we 401 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.480