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Speaker 1: Happy Father's Day, or, as Yahweh's disciples might call it,

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emotionally and physically abuse your Kid's Day because the Bible's

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original dad has a parenting style straight out of a

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psychological horror franchise Obey me or roast forever love me

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while I drown every living thing? And how about the classic,

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Hey Abraham, why not knife You're a little boy on

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the mountain there, just to prove that you're my number

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one fan. Nothing says paternal devotion like nearly turning your

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kid into brisket because the voices in your head told

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you to fast forward a few millennia and the Faith

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will use Michael Pearls to train up a child, which

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is basically a DIY guide for converting PBC pipe into

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Holy trauma wand on their toddlers, Yahweh's playbook for parenting

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is pretty simple. Keep them terrified, call it love, and

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then remind them that your love is contingent upon perfect obedience.

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Sprinkle in some Sunday school bedtime stories about Hell, which

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is based an eternal torture chamber filled with pineapples and

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bad decisions, and you've got a psychological warfare. Masquerading is discipline.

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Teaching a seven year old that one wrong thought earns

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them an eternity on a divine grill is emotional abuse,

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full stop. It's cosmic gaslighting. If an earthly father said Jimothy,

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I love you unconditionally, but cross me and I'll lock

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you in the basement torture chamber forever, we'd call the

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cops on that person. We would not invite them to

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be the youth coordinator. The benefit of not being beholden

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to some cosmic dictator is that you don't have to

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traumatize your kids into acting the way that you want.

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You have the option to set them up to succeed

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rather than traumatize them into obeying. If you don't think

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that God has taught a toxic, codependent parent, then we

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urge you to call in because the show starts.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: That's right, everybody. Today's June fifteenth, twenty twenty five. Happy

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Father's Day. I am your host secularity and joining me

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today is the wonderful godless engineer. What is up, man?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty good. Just had a really good Father's Day.

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I got some magic the gathering cans. So you know,

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there's that that's totally normal for a forty year old

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father to get right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, man, I don't see anything wrong with that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah what Yeah, Honestly, like if you're not buying, if

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you're not buying your father something like Magic the Gathering

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cards or Pokemon games.

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Speaker 3: Or I mean there's a lot of things out there,

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Mario stuff. You know, I am not a father, so

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I did not get celebrated today, you know, which is fine,

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which is fair. But I can say, because I know

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my dad doesn't watch this, he's not he's never going

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to see this, so I can say directly to my father,

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hey man, I love you. Also, could you like give

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me that recipe for the family's potato soup already? Like

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I don't know why, I know this is a weird

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way to do this, but like we've been talking about

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this for months now, and every single time I bring

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it up, you're like, oh, yeah, I'll send it to you,

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and then like you don't do it. So if you could,

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that'd be great. But I do love your happy Father's

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Day anyway. So with that, since start talking about like

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fatherhood and parenting and all this, I gotta ask ge,

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are you regularly are you regularly like giving your children

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like weird, mysterious tasks that if they don't complete, you know,

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to your satisfaction, you punish them to great degrees. Because

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this is the father that I see in the Trinity,

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and I don't know if I I don't know if

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that is a good way to like raise kids or not. Again,

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I don't have children, so I'm not sure is that

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is that something you're doing or no.

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Speaker 1: So if I if I were to like that, what

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I would do is I would instead appear to random

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people and then have them come and tell my child

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how to do things. And then if he doesn't do them,

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then I've got a button that I push that's just like,

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you know, screw them over for life, and then hit

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it and you know, it does something random. And he

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doesn't know if I'll ever find out, but you know,

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he's got random people coming to the house being like, Hey,

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that said don't do that.

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Speaker 3: I don't see why. I don't see why there is

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anything problematic with that, you know, when you think about

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it in the real world, you know kind of perspective.

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I mean, it's obvious that this this father figure portrayed

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in the Bible is clearly the best. No seriously, obviously

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we're joking people. Look, I might piss some people off

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when I say this, but because again I'm not a father,

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I don't have kids, But get I get a little

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annoyed when people will tell me things like people are

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obviously doing things that are not beneficial for the well

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being and health of their child. And then they'll kind

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of get this whole like defense and like.

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Speaker 5: Well, kids don't come with a manual like and it's like, well,

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wait a second, We've had child psychology for quite a

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fucking long time, now, Like, are you joking with me?

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Speaker 3: Like we know, we know some things that are just wrong,

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you know, like beating your child is not is not

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conducive to their health and well being. I mean, am

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I just am I completely out of again, I don't

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have kids, man, am I am I just out of line?

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You just have to beat them?

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Speaker 1: I mean, no, no, no, I find that I can't

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remember which comedian then I heard this from, but like, essentially,

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little kids seem to be the one class of people

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that can be rightfully abused in that way and not

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and parents won't suffer the consequences for it. Like, of course,

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if you go too far, you get you get you know,

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charged with something, but like what people like, I consider

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spanking your child to be child abuse any kind of

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physical contact that you do in order to correct behavior.

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I feel like his abuse and it's the only kind

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of abuse that's that's tolerated, it seems, And uh yeah,

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it really does kind of get me, get me really

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really angry.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I see that kind.

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Speaker 1: Of of parenting. It just seems so cave man ish, right,

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Like I feel like they should literally start off the

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discipline with you do bad thing.

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Speaker 2: And you know, walk away by dragging his knuckles across

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the ground.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, it is. It's it's one of those

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things that it you know again, like we've we've all

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probably heard it where you're like, yeah I got I

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got beat you know, as a child, and you know,

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I'm perfectly fine. That's why I think it's okay to

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now it's like, oh my gosh, no, do you not

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do you not see what you're saying. You're you're currently

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advocating for corporal punishment in public school, like this is

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a stranger beating strangers children like, and you're saying that's

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a good. Come on, folks, this is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: The thing that I think about anytime I hear somebody say, oh,

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I got you know, whipped as a kid, and I'm fine.

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I think of the meme that's popular from Thor Ragnarok,

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where you know it's got It's got Bruce Banner that's

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sitting there and he's talking to Thor and he says something.

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I can't remember what the line was, but then Thor

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looks back at him like, eh, you know, like are

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you are you sure about that? Like if you get

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beat as a kid, you're not fine? Like nobody is

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finding beat as.

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Speaker 2: A kid like that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah it is. It is this weird It

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is this weird space that we have we have still

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not really wanted to talk about in a lot of ways,

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and people get very very defensive about it. And so

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you know, that's why I just wanted to poke a

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little bit at it, because I'm sure there's somebody out

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there that thinks to themselves, gosh, these atheists frickin' you know,

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non religious, you know, secular or whatever. These these idiots

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don't know what they're talking about about, Raisin Chill. And

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you know what, maybe we don't, and maybe you are

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the brilliant mind that will help us realize that the

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only way to raise children with morals and compassion and

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just I don't know knowledge at all is through the

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love of Jesus Christ. I sincerely fucking doubt it. I

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sincerely doubt it. Okay, but you have that chance today

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because we have open lines. But before we get to that,

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I am going to tell you some things like the

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atheist experience. This show right here is a product of

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the Atheist Community of Austin, a five oh one c

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three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking,

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secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. I

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think all of those things are great, and actually there

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is some cool stuff that we are gonna be talking

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about later on. So some cool announcements out there in

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case you missed them on the last show and whatnot.

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But I'm going to go grab a call because we've

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got a call that I think is is going to

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tie right into this here again, big fans of secular

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humanism here, I think there's a lot of a lot

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of value in that. And we've got a caller, Rob

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Out in Texas is an atheist. He him pronounce and

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says that secular humanism can't actually replace some of the

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things that religion gives us. So I think this is

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a pretty cool topic.

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Speaker 6: Rob.

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Speaker 3: So you are on the show with Seculararity and Godless Engineer.

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What's up?

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Speaker 6: Rob?

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Speaker 7: Hello?

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Speaker 8: So I'm actually an atheist ex Muslim, and you know,

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famously on her CLI had an article kind of about it.

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And I heard this article, heard about this, you know argument,

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just tunking with friends and I couldn't really think of

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a good reputation and you know, thinking of playing the

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devils at a kid and seeing what you guys think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is a really interesting topic and

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one that I think, you know, we we all kind

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of come at this from a little bit of a

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of a different angle. And you know, like Ge for instance,

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has been you know, creating community online for I mean,

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how many years have you had your channel now?

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Speaker 8: Man?

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Speaker 1: I mean since twenty twelve is when I started it,

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But so I was doing stuff before then, so like

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since twenty ten, so about fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So like you know, this, this show, for instance,

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has been going on for almost thirty years now, and like,

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I think one of the things that happens a lot

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of times, especially when we're comparing like secular or non

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theistic community to religious community. Oftentimes it becomes quickly obvious

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that we don't have the same structures in place in

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a lot of ways. And I mean that both in

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a both in like a tradition and kind of like

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unifying message. Sometime sometimes that in those senses, but sometimes

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also in the sense of like we just literally don't

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have a building, you know, Like I can't think of

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any space in the area that I live that has

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a secular daycare. Like every single one of them are Jesus,

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this God, that Noah's ark whatever, right, you know. So

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like sometimes it's a it's like a financial and it's

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like a it's like a you know, a physical we

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don't have enough chairs type of thing, you know. But

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in other times it does it It can feel like

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we don't have traditions that we can all kind of

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get behind and do together. You know, all the Christians

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know all the frickin songs, right, they all sing them

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and they do the hand motions together and whatnot. We

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don't really have that. A lot of times it feels

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like I do think that it exists in a lot

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of ways, we just have to kind of reframe what

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we think of when we think of community. You know,

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I say this all the time. You know, bowling is

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a secular activity. You know, music concerts is a secular activity.

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Pot lux are a secular activity going out, and you know,

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helping people in your community, right, whether it's picking up

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trash or whether it's you know, helping to mow lawns

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in a neighborhood, all of those things are secular activities,

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you know. And what we need to do is really

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recognize that we're in a different space now, and we

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have to shift how we build these spaces and how

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we maintain them. And so, yeah, if we think about

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it from the perspective of, man, we just can't get

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one hundred and fifty people together every freaking Wednesday to

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all sing the same songs and give you know, ten bucks, Like, yeah,

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probably we won't have that, you know, But if you

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think about it from a lot of other perspectives, I mean,

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there are I mean, how many thousands of people that

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show up and hang out in dozens and dozens of

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different spaces online every single week, every other day on

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some channels, right, I mean that that's pretty cool. I'm

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really proud of that. You know, what do you think?

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What do you think? Ge?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think that any any belief that doesn't

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com with reality or that doesn't give you an accurate

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view of reality has the potentiality to like harm you

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and harm others around you. So, like, I guess I

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understand why people might be saying that, like the myths

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and narratives and like the community provided by religion are

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sort of like.

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Speaker 2: A necessary thing.

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Speaker 1: That just says to me that, like, people think so

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little of either religious people or or think so little

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of people in general that they can't cope without some

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kind of like controlling aspect to their life that distorts

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their view of reality and distorts it in a way

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that makes them easily controlled and easily manipulated. I feel

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like I have, you know, I say this with an asterisk,

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with a little bit of nuance. I feel like most

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people can be smart enough and can be intel enough

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to be able to find that kind of community or

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to do those things with an accurate view of reality

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instead of an inaccurate view of reality. So I've been,

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like Secularity said at the beginning of this, I've been

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doing this for fifteen years, and people here at the

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ACA have been doing this community building for far longer

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than that. I think that community building is not something

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that we can't do. I just think that because of

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the minority of atheists that are out there and a

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minority of groups that are out there to provide similar

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communities to religious communities, I think that's really the only

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barrier at this point. I think that people can find all,

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you know, all of the things that you can get

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out of a religious community, you can definitely find those

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in a secular community. It's just a matter of I

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think the popular opinion of believing in some kind of creator,

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this whole idea that, oh, if you don't believe in

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a creator, you don't believe in Jesus, you don't believe

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in God, then that has some kind of moral implication

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to your life or anything like that. I just don't

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think that's true.

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Speaker 3: What do you think?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so both of you had I think, two very

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different arguments, and I kind of made similar arguments as well,

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and you know, playing devil down, we get someone to

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respond to that. I heard was you know, if you

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try to create anythist community, that's obviously possible, but you

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can't replace the history and uh, you know, it's the

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prevalence of religious imagery. For example, I've been a writer,

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is you know, creating a movie or writing a novel,

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there's you know a lot of times they make allusions to,

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you know, the Bible, and you have like his imagery

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or like build up these cliches, and I think, uh,

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that's just like really hard or impossible to do with

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secular humanism. And there's no like centric like centralizing figure

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or myth or like stories regarding those.

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Speaker 1: I guess I just don't see the need for any

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of that. Like you can definitely reference it in a

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secular manner that's done all the time throughout it. And

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I mean, I feel like there's often a misrepresentation, like

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sort of a looking at these scriptures through like a

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very Christ's colored lens, if you will, because people often

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characterize these scriptures as being like oh so great and like, oh,

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look at the wisdom that you can find in this

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particular section. And I guess, maybe just because I've been

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doing this so long, like anytime I hear somebody talk

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about like the beautiful things about the scripture, I'm just

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sitting there like, yeah, But if I turn to number

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thirty one, here God is definitely telling Moses to go

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in there and kill children along with innocent women and

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other children, and then taking small virgin girls to force

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into marriages, which is a type of sexual slavery. I

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get that you want to look at the good parts

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of this, but like I feel like the bad parts

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overshadow these good parts. Like I just I can't get

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past that. And I don't think that we should characterize

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the Bible as being all roses and everything.

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Speaker 2: I just don't think we should do that.

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Speaker 3: No, I totally agree, And I think that that's one

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of the points that I really really love to focus

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on because you know, I've heard this phrase before by

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different Christians. They'll say, like, well, you turned away from

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religion because of the church, but did you turn away

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because of Jesus? As if like as if, like I've

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never looked into, you know, what the purported life of

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this individual is, right, Like, of course I have. Of

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course I've looked into the teachings that he says. Right,

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And there are dozens and dozens of you know, people

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and videos and places out there you can go. You

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can go sit down and hear a fantastic breakdown of

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all the nuances about the sermon on the Mount, you know,

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and here a bunch of different really smart people tell

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you all kinds of really cool thoughts you didn't you

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didn't look at before you were like, Wow, I thought

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Blessed are the Meek was a good thing. But now

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that I think about this, now this is kind of

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fucked up. I really do think when we look at

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the things that come to us from religion, like let's

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let's take one we don't often talk about on here, Hinduism.

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There's this interesting story, and I'm sure I'm gonna get

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some things wrong, and somebody's gonna yell at me in

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the chat and tell me how much of a dick

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I am. But if you read, if you read some

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of those ancient texts, there's this moment where this one

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guy is like really bummed out because he looks down

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over the hill and he sees like thousands and thousands

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of people being slaughtered because of this battle that he

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is directing. He says, yeah, go army, go kill those people.

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And for a moment he realizes that all of these

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people are his friends and his family on both sides,

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and he sees all of the violence and the hatred

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and the destruction that's going to happen years and years

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from now because of this one battle. And right before

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he tells everybody to stop, a god comes down and

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tells him like, nah, I don't worry about all that

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shit man, heaven and afterlife and whatnot. And it's like, well,

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wait a second, that's gross. That's terrible. Man. Like, at

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the core of all of these ideas is something really

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really disgusting. And I do think if if we reframe

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our view on community just a little bit, I think

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we can see that actually, the best community that we

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have right now is a secular humanist community. The stuff

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that goes on in the world around you that makes

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up most of your day actually is non religious, actually

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is focused on the betterment of humanity. We just don't

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think about it like that. When we all go together

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to go see some awesome sports savant and we're cheering

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our city on and and yeah, our people are winning

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and all this stuff. That's a secular humanist thing in

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a lot of ways, we just don't label it as such. Now.

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I know, I kind of rambled there for a little bit, Rob,

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and I'm sure you've got some thoughts, So shout shout back.

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At us before we uh we move on.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so I think I should have clarified earlier, like

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it's not religion, it's like the these aspects provided by religion.

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So if you imagine like the Jefferson Bible with all

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the non scientific parts, and then if you also you know,

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strip all the immoral parts or disregard them as progressive

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Christian and easy like Alex O'Connor kind of makes this

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argument that new atheism and I'm a big band of

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Christopher Hitchins, but you know, they come in and try

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like bring a wrecking ball to religion but don't have

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anything you know, really solid to uh to back it up,

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and you know, as we replace it. So it's like,

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if there's not something you rally behind, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: See I disagree with this because I feel like you

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could definitely use like something that's written better and with

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a with a richer backstory in order to derive a

386
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lot of the same principles that you could get out

387
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of the Bible, like, for instance, Lord of the Rings.

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Totally use Lord of the Rings. You can, you can

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look it up online. You can get comparable versus like

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I just did the love your neighbors yourself. And I

391
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got a couple of really good quotes like this is

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from Sam Wise, Gangie. I can't think of a good

393
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reference for this, But there is some good in this world,

394
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mister Frodo, and it's worth fighting for. Isn't that something

395
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that you can rally behind right there? Like, oh, praise

396
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Sam Wise, just for Sam Wise, and then go to

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the master himself, Gandalf. I will not say, do not weep,

398
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for not all tears are an evil. I mean that

399
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right there. Just think about Hollelujah.

400
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Speaker 3: And all I might start dancing and shaking in the

401
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eis man.

402
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Speaker 1: You shall not pass with your bigotry. Oh see you can.

403
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,079
You can get behind. You could get emotionally behind, like

404
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,440
a lot of things right there.

405
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Speaker 2: And I present the Gospel of the Lord of the Rings.

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Speaker 6: I do.

407
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Speaker 3: I do think like I understand you know that that viewpoint,

408
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rob and I think there's a lot of people out

409
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there that really like to push it. And if I

410
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may offer just a slight, slight different look at that.

411
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Here's why I think a lot of the religious people

412
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will say that is because they recognize that for decades

413
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and decades now, all of the science arguments all of

414
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the philosophy arguments that don't work. They're not they're not

415
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carrying water anymore. People are still walking away from the churches.

416
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And now the only thing that they can do is

417
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they can say, look how happy we are, Look how

418
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much fun we're having it, our pot luck. You know.

419
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But I again, I think, just like the scientific arguments,

420
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just like the philosophical arguments, when you push back on that,

421
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even in the slightest bit, what you find is that

422
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the Southern Baptist Convention headquarters, a fifty plus million dollar

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building downtown in my city, is being sold so that

424
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they can pay for the legal fees for abuse victims,

425
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legal fees, by the way, to defend their priests that

426
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abused kids allegedly, allegedly right for decades. That's what they

427
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That's what happens when you push back on these these

428
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institutions and these communities. It is a facade, man that truly,

429
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with the slightest of scratch, that gold leaf comes off

430
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so fucking easily, like they are not providing spaces that

431
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are actually benefiting people. Time and time again, there are

432
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people that have been active members of a church for decades,

433
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have blood, sweat and tears, have devoted their lives, have

434
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given everything to those communities, and all of a sudden,

435
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nobody calls, nobody checks up on them anymore. They go

436
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ten years without hearing from people that they'd spent their

437
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whole lives with. That is what the religious communities are

438
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at the end of the day. I don't hear that

439
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:24,319
type of shit from bowling leagues. Man. I don't hear

440
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,839
that type of shit when people are getting together regularly

441
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,079
to study stoic philosophy on their own time and their

442
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own free will. I just I don't hear that. When

443
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I hear about the people that are getting together regularly

444
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to go out there and try to raise some money

445
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and get some supplies together for a building that was

446
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recently purchased for unhoused teens in my area. I just

447
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,759
I don't hear that type of shit. Man. I hear

448
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:54,799
a lot better shit. I really do think. I really

449
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do think the secular humanist community is already the bigger

450
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and better community. We just don't see it like that yet.

451
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Speaker 8: What do you think, Rob, Yeah, so, I think one

452
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of the parts you guys said was, you know, we're

453
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underestimating religious people. And I would say perhaps looking back,

454
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even as the history of the colors to the show,

455
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we might be overestimating you know, religious people in that.

456
00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:22,920
And I think that you know, uh, for example, nationalism

457
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,359
is the replacement of you know, religious fervor and uh,

458
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you know, the right of Trump and all of that.

459
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You know, it's because they're losing potential community and you know,

460
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that rallying crime, so they find another rallying crime and

461
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you know, another group in politics. And people just need

462
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that reassurance that they have this all powerful force behind them.

463
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And you know that can come from like a very

464
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deistic god that's very removed from uh, you know, all

465
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,200
also immoral actions and the pre established institutions. But if you,

466
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for example, you guys use the analogy of Lord of

467
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,359
the Rings. But so I think, like our human it

468
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,480
is more of a critique of the approach and the

469
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,440
rhetoric of atheism and secular humanism, and that you know,

470
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you can't convince people to start adopting another mythology. You know,

471
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this is already so deeply embedded that you know, I honestly, Ali,

472
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,640
she makes like a very pragmatic argument in that it's

473
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better to kind of try to strip the bad parts away,

474
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and you know, maintains it's like an easier sell to

475
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:28,319
the religious people than to say, oh, no, your God

476
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,640
is not real and kind of like maintain the asist

477
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,319
stereotype of argumentative and like angry and you know, just

478
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:36,200
trying to change their.

479
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 3: Whole So if I can, if I can just push

480
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,480
back just a little bit, And I think, broadly speaking, like,

481
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:44,319
I'm I think I understand where you're coming from, Rob,

482
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,799
and I'm again, I'm pretty much I feel like we're

483
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:48,680
all pretty much on the same page, you know, for

484
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,759
the most part. Right, I think that that particular thought

485
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,960
from Ion Hersey Ali, and I've heard that thought from

486
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,759
other non religious activists, whatever type of label you want

487
00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:03,920
to give to those people. But I think I think

488
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,519
that's a bad focus. And here's why I say this.

489
00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:10,319
I think what our focus should be is the stance

490
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:16,799
of unyielding, unwavering truth, skepticism, humanism, compassion.

491
00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:17,279
Speaker 6: Right.

492
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,279
Speaker 3: I don't think we should compromise on those things. I

493
00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:26,640
think we can present them in a in a way

494
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,000
that isn't as argumentative or isn't as attacking in some times.

495
00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:37,119
And I also think with that we should ourselves recognize, yeah,

496
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,119
we're probably not going to change the vast majority of

497
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,039
the people that we talk to all the way over

498
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,680
to the not believing in the God side, right, But

499
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:51,680
by us taking that stance and by us holding that

500
00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:54,839
firmly and showing people that you know, not only is

501
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,319
there demonstrable truth, but there is there is benefit here,

502
00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:02,359
there is value by taking these approaches to life in general,

503
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,200
like that will cause people to strip those bad things, right,

504
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,960
So we don't. We don't compromise and move in our stance.

505
00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:14,839
We still hold firm you know, like I do not

506
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,839
have a good reason to believe that God exists, And

507
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,440
if you present one, fantastic I'll listen to it. But

508
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,279
otherwise I am not going to say like, yeah, well

509
00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:25,400
I don't know, like maybe yeah, God is in your

510
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,119
pepsi or something. No, screw that. Your God that you've

511
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,160
talked about does not exist based on the criteria you've presented.

512
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,240
And if I can get you to understand at least

513
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,799
why that version is crappy and poorly formed, maybe you'll

514
00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:46,480
incorporate some more logical thinking, some more skepticism, some more humanism,

515
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,319
and maybe you won't be on the street corners calling

516
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:53,319
for you know, queer people to be put in jail

517
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,119
and stuff. Right, I think that's the right approach.

518
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 6: Right.

519
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,359
Speaker 3: I might be wrong, but I don't think we should

520
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200
compromise on our on our stances. You think round.

521
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 8: I think so for for atheists, for people that think

522
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:09,640
like us, then you know that that becomes very easy

523
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,559
but very like common argument that uh so, you know,

524
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:16,160
when I was leaving it, for example, was where I

525
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,559
heard all the time, Oh so now you're you're atheists,

526
00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:21,400
you don't believe in God, You're going to be murdering

527
00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:25,559
and stealing from everyone. And so obviously the asist responsible,

528
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:28,160
we have a conscience that provides the prevents us from

529
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,519
doing it. But the very flast that they ask that,

530
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,279
and you know that's their way of thinking, kind of

531
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:35,960
reveals that, you know, they don't have that stop And

532
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,000
I certainly know of and could speak of a lot

533
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,160
of people that without you know, that constraint of God

534
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,319
would very much you know, act with me without that

535
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,640
external barrier. So you know, obviously, for a lot of

536
00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:53,599
people that like you, who think, oh, if there's no evidence,

537
00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:55,200
then I'm not going to believe it. You know, that's

538
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,440
completely you know, those people, we don't have to worry about,

539
00:29:57,519 --> 00:29:59,359
But for the ones that we do have to worry about,

540
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:02,640
you know, religion is still like a very good pacifying tool,

541
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:06,359
you know, it's albeit of the massive And Voltaire also said, like,

542
00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:08,720
you know, I'm not religious, but I would prefer my

543
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,599
maid to be religious or Christian or whatever, like I will.

544
00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 3: I will say, Rob, I'm sorry to cut you off

545
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,079
a little, but I do agree that there is a

546
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,119
negative view of atheists in this country, in this world.

547
00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:26,200
We are when when we just go out there and

548
00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:30,519
pull the average person on the street, apparently they don't

549
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,839
like atheists like we are. We are well low on

550
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,519
the list. You know, I totally totally agree, and I

551
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,920
do you did mention, you know, like the new atheists

552
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,400
like you know Hitchens and Harris and Dawkins and Dennett,

553
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,319
you know those guys and a few others, And yeah,

554
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,720
I think that that kind of attitude and that kind

555
00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:53,799
of flavor has carried over into a lot of the

556
00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:58,240
way that people view non religious people in general. But

557
00:30:58,279 --> 00:31:00,880
I would also say that there's quite a lot of

558
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,559
other people out there, you know, that have been doing

559
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:07,079
this for for a long time, and you know, bring

560
00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:10,920
in a lot of humor. Are are very compassionate, are

561
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:15,039
very knowledgeable, you know, And no I'm not. I'm not

562
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,960
setting you up to to you know, call you out,

563
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,920
ge I said, compassionate and knowledgeable and funny like, uh,

564
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:26,599
I mean, there's there's so many different people that I

565
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,000
can think of, you know that that truly are the

566
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,000
exact opposite of that go out there firebrand, I'm an

567
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,039
asshole atheist and stuff.

568
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: You know.

569
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,599
Speaker 3: And honestly, and I've said this for years, I I

570
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,240
think we need both sides, I really do. I think

571
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:47,319
we need that and everything in between, because the Christians

572
00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:50,920
have that, the Muslims have that right for every I

573
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,079
believe you said you were you were ex Muslim rob.

574
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,880
For for every Mohammed hi Job that's out there. You know,

575
00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:02,359
there's there's a Yah Sirkattie. You know, there's a there's

576
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,960
for for every for every scholar, there's the asshole that's

577
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,400
gonna yell and scream and say things. And honestly, on

578
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,160
the atheist side and the non religious side, we have

579
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,599
to recognize that without both of those, like, we aren't

580
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,599
gonna we aren't gonna make progress.

581
00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 5: You know.

582
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 3: Anyway we've been we've been kind of chatting a lot.

583
00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:23,039
Gee was there anything else you wanted to say on this.

584
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: No, I don't have anything. I think we I pretty

585
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,200
much said everything I need to on it.

586
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,319
Speaker 3: Sweet Well, Rob, thank you so much for giving us

587
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:35,440
a call. I'm gonna rudely just drop you like a

588
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,440
hot potato. And uh, we do appreciate you seriously. Come

589
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:42,160
back and give us a call again and let us know. Uh,

590
00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:44,680
let us know how how like community building goes in

591
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,079
your area. If there's any cool groups or things going on. Man,

592
00:32:48,119 --> 00:32:51,039
there's there's an awesome discord fan run Discord. You can

593
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:53,079
go hang out and chat with a bunch of people.

594
00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:55,480
So thanks so much, and uh, yeah, I'm dropping you

595
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,319
very rudely. I'm very sorry. But but we have other

596
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:01,640
calls and we still we'll have open lines you guys.

597
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,079
So if you have thoughts, if you think only religion

598
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,240
can provide morality, well let me tell you you're wrong. But

599
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:11,720
if you disagree, call it. You know, let me know.

600
00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:16,039
If you think Ge and I don't know anything about parenting,

601
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:19,039
feel free to call and yell at us. I don't know.

602
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:19,599
What do you got?

603
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: Gee?

604
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,599
Speaker 3: Is there something? Is there something you could It's Pride month.

605
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,200
We could talk about Pride month that pisses people off

606
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,039
for some weird and doesn't.

607
00:33:26,759 --> 00:33:30,559
Speaker 1: It Oh yeah, totally. I posted up I've been posting

608
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,440
up a whole bunch of like, uh like pride infographics

609
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:39,039
about common talking points that a lot of religious bigots

610
00:33:39,079 --> 00:33:42,119
basically use, and uh, you know, they've been going pretty

611
00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:44,240
well on the pay on my Facebook page and everything.

612
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:50,119
So I mean, I I think that the current you know, uh,

613
00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:54,240
you know, Christian nationalists, I guess sort of lines and

614
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,799
and and their efforts right now are really seeking.

615
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:00,359
Speaker 2: To persecute that group. So like, if you, if.

616
00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: Anybody out there thinks that that's not the case, or

617
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:06,519
that you think that the LGBTQ community does it deserve

618
00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:08,800
equal rights, you're wrong.

619
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: But let's call in and talk. I hope you call

620
00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:11,360
in and.

621
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: Talk about it, please, please do. I have heard a

622
00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:19,400
couple of people say recently, you know, okay, look fine,

623
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:23,480
you know, gay people whatever, But do they need a

624
00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:25,280
whole month? You know, can't we give them a day

625
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:30,719
or a week? I guess I don't know. I wonder

626
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,480
if they I wonder if they pay attention to anything

627
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,280
other than themselves. I don't feel like it's very difficult

628
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:43,559
to see why there is a reason for Pride Month, right, Like,

629
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,679
there was an individual that was recently assaulted in my

630
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,840
city at a storage facility because her and her partner

631
00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:56,199
were simply asking for some help unloading a fucking truck

632
00:34:56,519 --> 00:35:00,000
and somebody walked up to her and started beating her

633
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:04,199
her and and you know, yelling fucking homophobic slurs. And

634
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,920
it's like, I just like, I didn't try to find that.

635
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:11,599
I didn't like search for hours. I literally just woke up,

636
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,639
grabbed my fucking phone and looked at the very first

637
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,360
news feed that I saw. So I don't know, I

638
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:21,239
just I feel like I feel like some people are

639
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,079
very uneducated on it, and I'm confident that those people

640
00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:28,360
will call and tell us how how wrong we are.

641
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,679
But before we get to that, I got to tell

642
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:33,599
you something that is really cool, because it is that

643
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,679
time of year, and some of you may not know this,

644
00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:41,199
but there is a very large, very organized, very friendly

645
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,480
batcolmy that likes to hang out somewhere in this little

646
00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:51,960
known place called Austin, Texas. And these bats in mass

647
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:56,320
will come out at night and will fly around, eat

648
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,760
a bunch of bugs, and poop on you just a

649
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,239
little bit. And so we're having the ACA Bat Cruise again,

650
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,000
So bring your ponchos or you know, don't, I mean

651
00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:10,400
take the risk, you know, why not. There's no heaven,

652
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,440
there's no hell. Live your life as you want. But seriously,

653
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,519
the ACA Bat Cruise is coming back this year. It

654
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:22,239
is August sixteenth, twenty twenty five. Forest and j Mike

655
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:25,480
will be there, along with other hosts that you love.

656
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,159
So we're not sure who else that technically includes, but

657
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,880
we do know that Forest and Jay Mike will in

658
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,039
fact be there. You can get your tickets and all

659
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:40,800
the info at tiny dot cc slash Bat Cruise, and

660
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,800
I can tell you this, it is an absolutely incredibly

661
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,159
cool time. You can see me in a couple of

662
00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:48,800
those pictures. You can also see that everybody else in

663
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,880
those pictures looks uncomfortable because I jumped in them right

664
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,840
at the end and they were like, hey man, seriously,

665
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,239
we were trying to this was just kind of a

666
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,280
private thing among friends, and I was like, yeah, we're

667
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,440
all friends here and just walked away uncomfortably. But anyway,

668
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,400
it's a great time. You should come. You should come

669
00:37:03,519 --> 00:37:07,000
hang out if you've never been. Seriously, you guys, it

670
00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:10,079
is super, super fun you're gonna want to be there.

671
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,639
It's a whole weekend of really really cool stuff. And

672
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,280
in fact, if you cannot show up but you still

673
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,159
want to help, there is a way that you can

674
00:37:18,199 --> 00:37:20,559
do that. It is very very easy. Right below the

675
00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:24,840
chat there is a direct fundraiser. All of those proceeds

676
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,159
go directly to the ACA. YouTube does not take a cut,

677
00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,119
So click that donate button and support the mission of

678
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:33,480
the ACA. If you're looking and you're trying to make

679
00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:35,639
a super chat right now and you can't seem to

680
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:39,360
do that, that is the reason, So go donate. Go

681
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,400
spend that money. I mean, what do you what else

682
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,599
are you doing with that like five or ten dollars?

683
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,400
You know, like you're probably going to make up some

684
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,880
bullshit excuse like what I don't even see? Are there

685
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,519
any good like movies out or anything? Like, there's nothing

686
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:52,920
else you're going to be doing today, Like, don't fucking

687
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,960
lie to me. I know you're sorry. That was for

688
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,599
one specific person, and that person feels very uncomfortable right now.

689
00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,679
But anyway, I don't think I've pissed off the crew

690
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,519
too much this time. They're not sending me any mean messages.

691
00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:08,559
You guys, so that's good. I'm very happy about that. Normally,

692
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,840
if anybody's been watching lately, I've me and the crew,

693
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,320
we've had kind of a kind of a difficult relationship.

694
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:15,880
I don't know. Do you get in trouble a lot

695
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,760
on here or is that just me?

696
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 6: Am?

697
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,039
Speaker 3: I just is it something to do with me?

698
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: I don't know.

699
00:38:21,559 --> 00:38:24,559
Speaker 1: I mean, I normally don't. I've got a pretty good

700
00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:25,840
relationship with everybody.

701
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: I think.

702
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just wondering, like I just figured maybe

703
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,000
it was just like a thing. It was just kind

704
00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:35,599
of like how they talk to everybody or something. All right, cool? Anyway, Well,

705
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,119
we have another caller, and if you guys have thoughts,

706
00:38:39,159 --> 00:38:42,079
please give us a call. We are here and we

707
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:44,719
want your spicy stuff. Man, I don't know. I'm ready

708
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:45,880
to fight. Are you ready to fight?

709
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 9: Ge?

710
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 3: I could do it? I could.

711
00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: My fisticuffs are ready to cuff.

712
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Well we are gonna go out to New Jersey.

713
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,400
We've got Abe. He him as a theist and once

714
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,960
talk about arguments for God. Well, Abe, that's what we're

715
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,199
here for. You were chatting with secularity and godless engineer.

716
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:05,719
What's up?

717
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:06,039
Speaker 6: Yeah?

718
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 3: How are you pretty good?

719
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 5: How are you.

720
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,559
Speaker 7: You're doing good. So I have two arguments for the

721
00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:11,400
existence of God.

722
00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 3: All right, give us one, Yeah, give us the first one,

723
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:14,519
all right.

724
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,559
Speaker 7: So the first one is the Mount Sina revelation. It's

725
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:19,239
not that it says that in the Bible. It's more

726
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,360
like it was passed down. I have a quick question.

727
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,360
If someone tells you that they went to a store

728
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:24,679
last week, would you believe them?

729
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: It depends, I mean probably in general, but it doesn't

730
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,719
have anything to do with the actual truth of the situation.

731
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:31,039
Speaker 8: Right right.

732
00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:33,159
Speaker 7: But if someone tells you that you went to the store,

733
00:39:33,159 --> 00:39:36,360
and you know you didn't, would you believe them?

734
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 3: Again? Probably, But it depends on the situation. Because, for instance,

735
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,079
I know for a fact I have done things I

736
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:44,159
do not have memory of. I know for a fact

737
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:46,679
that that happens on a regular basis, So it is

738
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,320
very much possible that I did that. But yeah, in general,

739
00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:53,199
both of those things, I'd probably be like shrug my

740
00:39:53,199 --> 00:39:55,599
shoulders in yeah, sure, but where are we going?

741
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 6: Yeah?

742
00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 7: So what I'm going with this is basically it was

743
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,920
passed down for the generation generation till today that there

744
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,960
were over six hundred thousand people. Six hundred thousand I

745
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,159
think men and then plus the women and children in

746
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,760
Mount Signer. So I'm wondering, if that's not true, how

747
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,000
it could have started, how people could have convinced to

748
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:14,000
other people. Let's say you give someone a book the

749
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,239
Bible that says you are a Mount sign and there

750
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,119
were three million or six hundred thousand whatever it is, witnesses.

751
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:21,400
So if you weren't there and you wouldn't believe it,

752
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:22,760
I mean most people wouldn't.

753
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:29,679
Speaker 10: I would think, abellabe, well, abe, I maybe secularity understands

754
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,360
like where this is going or how this relates to

755
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:37,199
like like God, But I'm simply not following you here.

756
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:38,599
Speaker 2: It sounds to me like.

757
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,519
Speaker 1: You're you're making an ad hoc claim that there was

758
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:45,760
some kind of prophecy, which is magical. By the way,

759
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,920
there's some kind of prophecy that supposedly was handed down

760
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:57,960
from generation to generation, and now we're apparently this prophecy

761
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,039
applies to today in some kind of way. But regardless

762
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:05,159
of all that, what does a let's just say the

763
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:09,320
population numbers are correct at Mount SINAI. I really don't care.

764
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:14,639
How does it prove anything like what I mean, how well?

765
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,760
So I get a lot of questions I guess, like,

766
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,000
how does it prove anything? Also, how do you know

767
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,840
that this quote unquote prophecy? Was it just something that

768
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,400
was made up after the fact to fit the circumstances

769
00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:32,639
that this person already experienced. There's just a lot of

770
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:35,880
like historical questions that we got to ask, like, what's

771
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,400
your historical sourcing for this? Where are people getting this information?

772
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,559
If you're just gonna in an ad hoc manner say oh,

773
00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:47,400
God gave this to some random fuck in the in

774
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,679
the Israelite nation or whatnot, and then they just passed

775
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:52,960
it down, this is going to fall flat for me.

776
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,400
I don't understand how this could ever hope to prove

777
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:57,480
anything about God.

778
00:41:57,599 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 7: Well, it's really just that there are witnesses and it

779
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,719
was passed down, so we know that. Well, we it's

780
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,960
more evidence and proof. I'm not saying it's proof. I'm

781
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,599
just saying it's a little bit of evidence.

782
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 3: Just to so real quick, Abe, when when you came, well,

783
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,880
I just just so I'm on the same page with you.

784
00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:16,920
Are you a are you a follower of Christ? Are

785
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,320
you have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? Oh

786
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,559
you're Jewish? Okay, awesome, awesome, awesome, that's great. Still still

787
00:42:23,559 --> 00:42:26,159
Abrahammick though, that's good. That's good because if you're outside

788
00:42:26,199 --> 00:42:28,599
of the Abrahamic faith, I might have I might have

789
00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:31,880
some questions, you know. No, I'm kidding, no, But seriously,

790
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,519
when you when you converted to Judaism, right when you

791
00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:39,360
went through that whole process, right, because it's difficult, it's

792
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,239
a very very difficult process. Judaism is not is not

793
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,920
one of those I'm sorry I say that again.

794
00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 6: I was.

795
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 7: I was born Jewish.

796
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 3: Oh, so this particular thing that you're bringing up, for instance,

797
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,599
had nothing to do with your belief. You were just

798
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:53,519
raised in My.

799
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 7: Father told me, and his father told.

800
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 3: Him, right, so you were just but hang on, but

801
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,679
hang on, but hang on like when you're father told

802
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,239
you that story, you already believed right, Like, this didn't

803
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,960
actually move the needle for you kids.

804
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 7: So I just believe whatever I was told. Right now,

805
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,280
I'm not religious, but I'm still figuring things out.

806
00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but hold up, but go back to that what

807
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,119
you just said, Abe, that was a really good point, man,

808
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,880
That's a really really good point. Is that, Yeah, when

809
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,840
you were younger, you just believed what people told you. Man,

810
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:25,559
And people told you that this was a really miraculous

811
00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:28,679
story and really really interesting and special. A buddy of

812
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:32,320
mine was raised in the Hindu religion, and in that religion,

813
00:43:32,519 --> 00:43:37,559
they also surprisingly have really miraculous stories and you'll never

814
00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:41,679
believe it. They've been passed down from generation to generation,

815
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,639
from grandfather to father, from father to son, and there's

816
00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:49,320
six thousand, hundred thousand witnesses and all of them saw this.

817
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:55,039
It's fascinating how how truly, like, point for point, every

818
00:43:55,079 --> 00:43:57,840
single one of these stories are every single one of

819
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,840
these religions are like. I'm not saying saying that this

820
00:44:01,039 --> 00:44:04,599
didn't happen for instance, I'm not saying that it wasn't

821
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,360
passed down from generation to generation. I'm just saying it

822
00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:13,360
seems to me like there's nothing to distinguish between stories

823
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,559
like this for your religion and stories like this for

824
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,400
every other religion, and either we accept them all or

825
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:22,599
we don't accept any of them.

826
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 7: Right, So it's more the question I have is more,

827
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,920
how would the first people that heard the story be

828
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,239
convinced of it? If all it was is a story?

829
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,480
But really, Christianity is on there's just one prophet. This

830
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:34,599
is a little different.

831
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: Well, well, so what exactly is the story that you're

832
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,480
asking about here. The story is a bunch of Israelites

833
00:44:41,639 --> 00:44:45,079
met at the bottom of Mount Sinai, and you're wondering

834
00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:46,320
how people can believe that.

835
00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 7: How the first people that were told the story would

836
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,239
believe it if they weren't the people that were actually there,

837
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:52,400
if it didn't actually happen.

838
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me make a small callback here.

839
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,159
Speaker 2: How did you come to believe it?

840
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,039
Speaker 7: I came to believe it because is well because of

841
00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:03,599
that really, because there was passed down from generation generation

842
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,400
And I don't know, well how anybody I would believe

843
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,880
it if it's not true at the begin.

844
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,199
Speaker 1: Well, right, right, But but I guess I was trying

845
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,719
to make a callback to you saying, well, I was

846
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,639
little and I just believed what I was told, people

847
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,360
just told me. And and considering that in the past, uh,

848
00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:23,840
there was even less verification on stories that were told

849
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:28,360
that at the time that the Hebrew Bible was written,

850
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,800
people could just make up whatever and the fuck kind

851
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,159
of crazy shit and people would believe it. There's there's

852
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,440
you know, I'm trying to think of. I don't really

853
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:45,000
know the story the Israelite stories outside of the Hebrew Bible. Like,

854
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:47,119
I know this better for for the New Testament, but

855
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:50,679
I'm sure there's crazy stories around that time. But like

856
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,280
there's there's so many different stories that can that have

857
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,360
been told and people just believe them. Like how like

858
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,239
there's a long lineage of the ice an Osiris cult

859
00:46:02,159 --> 00:46:06,360
that mimics a lot what's told about Judaism and Christianity.

860
00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:12,960
How unless Isis and Osiris were real, why did everybody

861
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,880
believe it? Why was it a substantial cult in the

862
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,639
Mediterranean area? Why did it affect so many people? How

863
00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:23,239
could so many people believe that if it didn't actually

864
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,400
happen or wasn't actually true, right.

865
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, I guess I agree with that case.

866
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,840
There used to be everybody believed the earth was flat.

867
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,760
I mean, I don't know what you believe about that,

868
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,239
but you know what I'm saying.

869
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: It's definitely not that the Earth is flat.

870
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would say that neither of us believe that.

871
00:46:38,599 --> 00:46:42,920
But yeah, Abe, I think this is something that happens

872
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:48,000
all the time in these types of traditions, right, and

873
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:55,239
especially especially with the Hebrew Bible, there is so so

874
00:46:55,519 --> 00:46:59,920
much of that that is specifically about crafting a narrative

875
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,239
for a people group in a time and place when

876
00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:06,000
honestly they were getting the shit kicked out of them

877
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,199
from every other person. Man. They were getting conquered left

878
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,119
and right by different fucking you know tribes across the river.

879
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,960
They were losing all their people, they were getting scattered

880
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,440
all this good shit. Man, there there is a reason

881
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:26,039
that a people group in that particular like historical context,

882
00:47:26,159 --> 00:47:30,400
like geopolitical context. It makes total sense to me why

883
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,880
they would come up with a couple of different stories, right,

884
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:36,000
And it's not. This is the thing is a lot

885
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,199
of people, a lot of people will will come at

886
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,079
you know, me and ge and they'll be like, well,

887
00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:42,039
you think they're just making it all up. You think

888
00:47:42,039 --> 00:47:43,440
they're just no no, no, no, no, no, no no no.

889
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:49,800
Syncretism is this fascinating concept where we don't exactly make

890
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,920
up something brand fucking new, but it isn't. Also, it

891
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,480
also is not just this straight one for one matching

892
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,239
putting together. It's this beauty, beautiful thing that we as

893
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,440
people do where we take a little bit of the new,

894
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:05,880
we take a little bit of the old, we blend

895
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,360
that together in some ways, we keep some of it,

896
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,039
we throw some of it away. It's just what we do.

897
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,679
And I bet you, I bet you, if we go

898
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,559
back to Hinduism, if we go back to Zoroastrianism, if

899
00:48:20,559 --> 00:48:25,400
we go back to the myriad of different tribal pagan

900
00:48:26,039 --> 00:48:30,519
regional systems of belief that have existed for thousands and

901
00:48:30,559 --> 00:48:33,559
thousands and thousands of years, I bet you there's similar

902
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:36,880
stories to this stuff, man, Because that's what we do.

903
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,760
We just kind of take the little stuff.

904
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,559
Speaker 7: We said about the Jews being conquered and all that

905
00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:46,559
that could be some more evidence because it says in

906
00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:50,519
the Bible or whatever that we will exist forever or

907
00:48:50,639 --> 00:48:53,519
until the end of days or until whatever it is. Yeah,

908
00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:57,519
we're still alive after all that bad. We're one of

909
00:48:57,519 --> 00:48:58,000
the most.

910
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 3: Think about that for a second. Just think about that

911
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,760
for a second. Name name a group, Name a group,

912
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,559
name an ideology, Name a person that ever puts out

913
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:12,840
as a prophecy, and one day all of our people

914
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,639
will be fucking destroyed and dead. Name one that exists that.

915
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:21,119
That's of course, everybody's gonna make the fucking prophecy about.

916
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:23,480
We're going to be around fore, we're gonna take back

917
00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:26,920
our land. We're gonna be the strongest. Everybody says that

918
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:30,360
nobody's different in that space, come on, right.

919
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 7: But in this case, it actually kind of happened.

920
00:49:33,159 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 3: But it happens for everybody that's still around.

921
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:36,079
Speaker 2: Man.

922
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: The only reason that we have that shit from ancient

923
00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:43,239
China is because, guess what, they're here because the rest

924
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,599
of the people that didn't win. After saying that same thing,

925
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,079
we don't know about them anymore. We don't talk about

926
00:49:49,119 --> 00:49:52,760
him anymore. Of course, this is one of those things

927
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,599
that's like obvious. It's like, well, you know, if I

928
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:58,400
go buy ice cream, there's gonna be ice cream for

929
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,880
the ice cream Sunday tonight. It's like, yeah, because you

930
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,519
bought the fucking ice cream, Like of course, God, yeah, that's.

931
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,519
Speaker 7: Sound a lot better in my head. I guess no,

932
00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:07,440
but no.

933
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 3: But that's the thing, man, This is how this is

934
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,800
how so much of this stuff is. Man, this is

935
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,480
how so much of this stuff is. It's it. It

936
00:50:16,039 --> 00:50:19,400
sounds really really good to us and other people. All

937
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,400
these people around us have been talking about this for years, man, Like,

938
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,119
have you ever abe, have you ever spoken in tongues? No? Me,

939
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,840
neither me neither. But I know a bunch of people

940
00:50:31,079 --> 00:50:34,119
I know a bunch of people who grew up in

941
00:50:34,159 --> 00:50:36,719
that space, and they were like, they were like eight

942
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,239
years old and their mom or their dad, or or

943
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,880
some church leader that they looked up to, right as

944
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,320
this person of authority, they came up to them and

945
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,840
they said, as an eight year old, they said, one day,

946
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:53,119
one day, you'll have the Holy Spirit inside you, and

947
00:50:53,199 --> 00:50:56,039
you'll be able to speak in tongues, just like a

948
00:50:56,159 --> 00:51:00,239
true believer of Christ. And for some reason, that's never

949
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,280
happened for them. They never felt it, they never spoke

950
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,239
in tongues. It never worked for them. Now. I think

951
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,679
it's because it was just a story to begin with.

952
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,360
It was never true. It was just a story that

953
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,360
people passed down from grandfather to father, from father to child.

954
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,639
And honestly, when we poked at it just a little bit,

955
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,719
it was a facade, you know. And I don't know

956
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,280
that every single thing that you believe is like that, right,

957
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,280
But I think there are some of these we talked

958
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,239
about a few. I think there are some of them

959
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,079
that they really are. Man, it's really just a story.

960
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,480
It's not a It could be a cool story, it

961
00:51:35,519 --> 00:51:37,320
could be one that fills you with a lot of

962
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,440
pride about your who you are, your place in the world,

963
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:46,039
your family history, all of that, and that is good shit.

964
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,920
That is valuable shit. You know. I don't want to

965
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,679
take that away. But if you're telling me that part

966
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,280
of the story, let's say, involves like some dude holdness

967
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,599
staff in the air for you know, fourteen fucking hours

968
00:51:59,599 --> 00:52:02,599
and the unstopped in the sky, you know that part's

969
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:05,920
not real. That's that's all I want to say.

970
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:09,639
Speaker 7: One last argument. This was really the second one. I

971
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,400
just when you said something about conquering the Jews being conquered,

972
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:14,119
I just thought.

973
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,599
Speaker 3: Of that one. But that's okay, go for it.

974
00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 7: Basically, this one, this one is that one thing we

975
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,360
can all agree on. If we don't agree about God,

976
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,559
we don't agree about lots of stuff. Are we in

977
00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:24,599
the matrix? Are we this or that? One thing we

978
00:52:24,599 --> 00:52:27,039
can agree on is that we exist? Right, I think

979
00:52:27,079 --> 00:52:30,519
so or something something, something exists because we couldn't get

980
00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:31,239
a mature I.

981
00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 3: Feel pretty good about that that there is a reality.

982
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 8: So right.

983
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,559
Speaker 7: So I don't know if you're gonna like this one,

984
00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:41,320
but basically is that the definition of God is existence.

985
00:52:41,679 --> 00:52:45,199
So by believing in existence, we're believing in called God.

986
00:52:45,639 --> 00:52:47,039
I don't mean like a man in the sky, I

987
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:47,960
mean existence.

988
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,519
Speaker 1: Well, so, so the the problem that I have with

989
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:55,679
this is that you you end up just equivocating uh

990
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,840
some words here, Like you're you're just reducing the idea

991
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,960
of God down to something that just doesn't make uh,

992
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:05,639
that isn't descriptive of of what people generally.

993
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:06,039
Speaker 2: Think of as God.

994
00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 1: So you're you're kind of doing a bait and switch

995
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:14,800
here with you know, defining God as existence. Okay, I

996
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,679
don't care where it comes from, it's still a bait

997
00:53:16,679 --> 00:53:19,719
and switch, Like it's it's a bait and switch on

998
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,400
the idea of what existence is, how existence is defined, and.

999
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:24,159
Speaker 2: All that kind of stuff.

1000
00:53:24,199 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: So like, if you're just going to define existence as

1001
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,199
God and just give existence the label of God, then

1002
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:33,159
I mean you're just ad hot you're kind of ad

1003
00:53:33,199 --> 00:53:36,239
hoc changing it so that you're arguing so that you

1004
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,199
know your your argument for God works because we exist,

1005
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,159
but it's not actually proving anything about God.

1006
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:43,639
Speaker 2: You're just redefining terms.

1007
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,119
Speaker 7: But if that's what God is, then but.

1008
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 3: How would you know that, Abe.

1009
00:53:49,159 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 7: How do you know that? Well, we don't know, we

1010
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,440
don't know that, But.

1011
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,079
Speaker 3: But how do we know about existence. How do we

1012
00:53:56,159 --> 00:53:57,000
know about there?

1013
00:53:57,039 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 6: There?

1014
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 3: There seems to be we all agree there seems to

1015
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,800
be something out here that we call reality or existence, right,

1016
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,880
How do we know about that? How do we how

1017
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,119
do we look into that shit?

1018
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 7: When we see, we see and we think there's got

1019
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:11,519
to be something.

1020
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:14,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's a system in there. We put together

1021
00:54:14,119 --> 00:54:17,239
this thing a while ago, right, called the scientific method,

1022
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,320
And that's what helps us understand the reality around us.

1023
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,360
That's what helps us distinguish the things that really do

1024
00:54:23,519 --> 00:54:26,800
exist and the things that don't. And if time after

1025
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,719
time we go looking for this God and it doesn't

1026
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,880
seem to be there, that seems to tell me it's

1027
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,320
probably not there. And like like John was just saying,

1028
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:40,079
I think there's a I think there's a lot of

1029
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:43,920
stuff that we we really get. You know, a lot

1030
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,920
of a lot of shit comes into our pudding man

1031
00:54:46,119 --> 00:54:48,880
when we start equivocating on stuff like this, when we

1032
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,320
start saying that God is love, when we start saying

1033
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,760
that all of existence, the universe, the fabric of reality

1034
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,960
is God is the mind of God. I think the

1035
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,840
problems that we fall into there, even though we don't

1036
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,880
see them right away, I think they're some of the

1037
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,239
most harmful things that are are kept in religions because

1038
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,360
when we get real flowery about that shit, what happens

1039
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,960
is a lot of stuff gets smuggled in, a lot

1040
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,119
of things all of a sudden start to see more

1041
00:55:19,159 --> 00:55:19,599
into it.

1042
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:21,639
Speaker 7: Really, I don't know all of it, but there's a

1043
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,159
lot more to it, and oh so should. The problem

1044
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,039
is that you're changing the definition of God.

1045
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,199
Speaker 3: I mean, broadly speaking, Yeah, do you know what an

1046
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:31,079
equivocation fallacy is? Have you ever heard that term before?

1047
00:55:31,559 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 7: No? Understand?

1048
00:55:32,519 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 3: Basically, it basically just means that, like, we've got a

1049
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,239
bunch of different We've got a bunch of different words

1050
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,599
out there that have multiple meanings, and in some context,

1051
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:46,000
by using one of those meanings of the word, it

1052
00:55:46,079 --> 00:55:48,840
makes your argument makes sense, it makes it valid, right,

1053
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,119
But in other contexts, a different, a different usage of

1054
00:55:53,159 --> 00:55:56,519
that same word makes it nonsensical, right, It doesn't, It

1055
00:55:56,519 --> 00:55:59,320
doesn't follow anymore. And so that's that's kind of what

1056
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,000
Ge was saying. He's saying, like, man, you're taking this,

1057
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,960
you're taking this definition that we have, and you're really

1058
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:09,920
twisting it and warping it into a way that you know,

1059
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,639
honestly does not work in this fashion, and I agree,

1060
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,800
I really have a problem when we do the whole

1061
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,119
like Spinosa's God, you know, and we have that whole

1062
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:26,440
kind of pantheistic you know, panantheism type stuff, because I

1063
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,039
just think, I just think that it feels a lot

1064
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:33,320
better to people, It makes people feel a lot better,

1065
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,360
but all of the harms are still inherently a part

1066
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,760
of that. Honestly, I think one of the best analogies

1067
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,159
I can give is lethal injection as a death penalty

1068
00:56:44,159 --> 00:56:46,599
in the United States. One of the reasons that we

1069
00:56:46,639 --> 00:56:49,480
do lethal injection in this country is because it makes

1070
00:56:49,559 --> 00:56:54,000
us feel good because we don't have to see somebody suffering, right,

1071
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,599
And only recently, as more and more companies have started

1072
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:01,639
stripping away the rights of these these prisons to use

1073
00:57:01,679 --> 00:57:04,840
these medications, we're starting to see the harms that are

1074
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,719
happening to these people. There have been so many fucking

1075
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,440
botched executions in the last decade it is disgusting. But

1076
00:57:11,519 --> 00:57:13,800
that was why we stepped away from the electric chair.

1077
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,159
That was why we stepped away from the firing squad

1078
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,320
is because it made us feel like we weren't doing

1079
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,760
something super fucked up, but in reality, we are putting

1080
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,920
a human being to death. Still, that's what's happening. And

1081
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,559
the same thing in this concept where we say, man,

1082
00:57:29,639 --> 00:57:33,199
my God's just love, Man, my God's just energy, Man,

1083
00:57:33,559 --> 00:57:36,960
my God's the universe. No, at the end of the day,

1084
00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:40,880
you are still using the exact same pattern of thinking,

1085
00:57:41,119 --> 00:57:44,800
the exact same methodology that leads to all of the

1086
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,280
same harms that I feel really confident, Abe, you and

1087
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,000
I agree. We want to minimize that shit. We want

1088
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,880
to get rid of that shit in the world, you know.

1089
00:57:53,239 --> 00:57:56,599
I think this pattern of thinking, unfortunately, is what leads

1090
00:57:56,679 --> 00:57:57,360
us to that stuff.

1091
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:57,639
Speaker 9: Though.

1092
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 3: So we've been talking a lot with you, Abe too,

1093
00:58:01,079 --> 00:58:03,360
So wrap us up real quick and we'll move on.

1094
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 7: But so, what you're saying is that so you don't

1095
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:08,719
like the idea that God could be like a creator

1096
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,400
of personal and existence at the same time, or you

1097
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,920
just don't like using different mords for different things. What exactly?

1098
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:17,079
Have a little bit of a hard time understanding exactly

1099
00:58:17,079 --> 00:58:17,679
what you're saying.

1100
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,719
Speaker 3: I think the creator God is in that version and

1101
00:58:21,039 --> 00:58:24,800
understanding of a deity that can be demonstrably shown not

1102
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:25,440
to exist.

1103
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: Okay.

1104
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 3: I think when we put those types of criteria and

1105
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,199
understandings on a version of a God. I think we

1106
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,079
can show time and time again to your satisfaction, that

1107
00:58:35,079 --> 00:58:37,800
that God does not exist. On the flip side of

1108
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,559
that spectrum, on the opposite side, where we are equivocating

1109
00:58:41,639 --> 00:58:46,199
between God and love or energy or whatever, I think

1110
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,400
those things are still just as harmful.

1111
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:50,159
Speaker 6: Again.

1112
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's more existence itself or unity and harmony together.

1113
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,639
Speaker 3: I still put it in the same.

1114
00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: Category we understand, like the that you're taking me through

1115
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:03,360
your argument here, I think that what it gets what

1116
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,519
it gets down to, is that it seems very ad

1117
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:09,800
hoc in nature, meaning that there's no supporting evidence at

1118
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,840
all to say that, oh, God is necessary for existence

1119
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,480
or that God is existence. I feel like you're just

1120
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,400
uh stating that, Like you're just stating God is existence

1121
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,039
without actually proving that it is.

1122
00:59:24,079 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 7: It's not me, it's more in the Bible or that come.

1123
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:28,159
Speaker 3: Up, so the Bible.

1124
00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:34,719
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, sorry, A I don't care where it

1125
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,360
comes from, Like it could come from a napkin that

1126
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,480
you found in A seven eleven. It doesn't really matter.

1127
00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:44,000
It's still just an ad hoc claim that this God

1128
00:59:44,119 --> 00:59:47,400
is existence. What what I know we need to move

1129
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:51,039
on because we do have calls lining up now. But like,

1130
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:55,559
do you actually have any evidence that suggests other than

1131
00:59:55,639 --> 00:59:58,119
just saying the Bible says it or the Hebrew Bible

1132
00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:01,000
says it, whoever says it, do you actually have any

1133
01:00:01,039 --> 01:00:04,559
evidence or any arguments that actually establish that God.

1134
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 7: Is in existence? And I guess I don't.

1135
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,639
Speaker 3: So yeah, Hey, that's that's great. Honestly, that's that's not

1136
01:00:09,679 --> 01:00:11,559
a bad that's not a bad place at all. Abe,

1137
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,000
Like you said, you said earlier that you were still

1138
01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:16,920
investigating some stuff, you're looking into some things, you're you're

1139
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,880
learning stuff like that's awesome, dude, that is the best

1140
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,320
fucking place to be. Ever, don't ever stop doing that.

1141
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,679
And uh, just give us a call back like in

1142
01:00:24,719 --> 01:00:26,760
a week or so and just tell us what you learned.

1143
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,000
And yeah, thanks so much, man, we appreciate you.

1144
01:00:29,719 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 7: Say one more thing, Uh, yep, go ahead.

1145
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:33,519
Speaker 3: You caught me right before I was about to rudely

1146
01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:35,679
click the button, so you got you got two seconds go.

1147
01:00:36,159 --> 01:00:39,039
Speaker 7: And what you said before about atheists that people dislike them,

1148
01:00:39,079 --> 01:00:43,480
I actually love it because it's skepticism, it's it's questioning things.

1149
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,159
And also is it, you know a young show.

1150
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 3: Then yeah, yeah, Yeah, see the show.

1151
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 7: People love him. He's an atheist, you know what I'm saying.

1152
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 3: Hey, Hey, that's right, and that's what we need more of, Abe.

1153
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,880
We need more. We need more cool atheists out there

1154
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,800
living and showing people that it is. It is okay,

1155
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,000
and not only is it okay, uh, but the water

1156
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,360
is pretty damn nice. So thanks so much, Abe, I'm

1157
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,559
gonna drop you real quick. I probably cut you off.

1158
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:08,960
I'm so terribly sorry. But yeah, that's what we need

1159
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,320
more of. We need more good atheist positive representation. There's

1160
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:16,000
too many of these long haired, you know, beard fucking

1161
01:01:16,199 --> 01:01:20,599
dickheads on the internet, you know, yelling about shit. But yeah, no,

1162
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,440
that's a good one. I have to tell you guys

1163
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:26,920
about some ways that you can support this wonderful channel

1164
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,320
and this incredible organization here, Like you can go to Patreon,

1165
01:01:31,599 --> 01:01:34,119
and if you're not familiar with Patreon, it's a it's

1166
01:01:34,119 --> 01:01:39,159
a really cool site. It's it's spelled pat reON. And

1167
01:01:39,519 --> 01:01:42,360
if you go to that link that is both in

1168
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,480
the description and in the live chat right now, you

1169
01:01:45,559 --> 01:01:49,880
can send money directly to the ACA. That's right. Money

1170
01:01:50,239 --> 01:01:53,719
that you send will go to the ACA for all

1171
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,920
kinds of wonderful things like helping keep this show happen.

1172
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,360
That is, you know, I've also heard that some of

1173
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,840
the money for the Bat Cruise fundraisers think will help

1174
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,960
to get people out there, will bring people like Forrest

1175
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,360
and j Mike there. So if you want more ACA

1176
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,960
hosts at the Bat Cruise, you should do that. You

1177
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,719
should do that. You can also become a channel member

1178
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,639
for as little as ninety nine cents a month. But

1179
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,400
why I do that? You're a baller, you know, your

1180
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,920
top of your fucking game. You're crushing it right now.

1181
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,760
You're a badass, and you want to show everybody how

1182
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,760
much of a badass you are. So become a channel

1183
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,519
member at more than that a month, and it's really

1184
01:02:35,559 --> 01:02:38,079
easy to sit the join button below. That'll give you

1185
01:02:38,119 --> 01:02:41,760
access to really cool chat emojis, but also you get

1186
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,719
early access to clips and YouTube shorts and all kinds

1187
01:02:44,719 --> 01:02:47,599
of cool things like that. And again, all of that

1188
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,679
money goes to a great cause, because there is a

1189
01:02:50,719 --> 01:02:55,119
bat Cruise coming up in exactly I did this math

1190
01:02:55,199 --> 01:02:59,320
Okay this please live chat check me on this, okay,

1191
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:07,119
very exactly sixty nine days from now until the bat Cruise. Okay, now,

1192
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:10,840
now I think for legal reasons, I am not allowed

1193
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:15,760
to say things about like sixty nine like at the

1194
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,039
bat Cruise. I don't know. I can't say. Look, I'm

1195
01:03:19,039 --> 01:03:23,199
gonna stop here. I'm starting to get messages from the crew.

1196
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,840
But look, by the way, did you know that there's

1197
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,360
ACA merch You can go to tiny dout cc slash

1198
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,840
merch Aca. You can buy lots of things and there's

1199
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,400
all kinds of great things there there. There is not

1200
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,920
anything sixty nine related on there.

1201
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: You know what?

1202
01:03:41,119 --> 01:03:43,239
Speaker 3: This is a thought real quick, and I just I

1203
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,480
know this is this is probably bad and I should

1204
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,639
probably not have this thought on air. But I'm just wondering, like,

1205
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,639
do you think we could do like ACA condoms? Do

1206
01:03:51,679 --> 01:03:54,599
you think that's a thing that would like be okay? Like,

1207
01:03:54,719 --> 01:03:57,920
is there any reason that we couldn't sell like? Okay?

1208
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:04,679
So we're gonna go out too Hawaii. Charles, he is

1209
01:04:04,719 --> 01:04:08,719
a theist, doesn't follow the Christian God, but wants to

1210
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:10,800
talk about the God of the Bible. Well, hate Charles,

1211
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,840
get us back on track a little bit. You're on

1212
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,079
the atheist experience. What's you go out for us?

1213
01:04:15,199 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 6: Okay? I was learned in the Bible there is a

1214
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:23,480
god god in the Bible named Jehovah y h v H,

1215
01:04:24,119 --> 01:04:27,239
and this is the God of the Jews. Christians hate

1216
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,440
this idea that god because Christians worship have their own god, Jesus,

1217
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:35,760
and so they want everybody to accept Jahivah Jesus because

1218
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,960
they are they have a strange religion, and their religion

1219
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,079
basically is is basically Jesus is the devil, and they

1220
01:04:43,159 --> 01:04:45,519
worship the devil and say.

1221
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 3: Hang on, hang on just the second, Charles, hang on

1222
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,719
just second for me, because I think there's a lot

1223
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,320
of interesting things that other people believe. We can talk

1224
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,519
about them some other time. But what I would love

1225
01:04:57,599 --> 01:05:01,880
to know is what you believe and do you believe

1226
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,199
in Jehovah of the Bible. Do you think Jehovah is real?

1227
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:06,639
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1228
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: Why, That's what I'd love to know.

1229
01:05:10,639 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 6: But Jehovah. The universe is weird. It doesn't really work. Sure,

1230
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:18,159
something makes it work, and obviously it's.

1231
01:05:20,039 --> 01:05:22,719
Speaker 1: Well so so Charles, I'm not going to sit here

1232
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,239
and say that we know how everything works in the universe,

1233
01:05:25,519 --> 01:05:27,760
because I don't think anybody knows that. But I mean,

1234
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,440
I feel like there's plenty of processes and ways that

1235
01:05:31,679 --> 01:05:35,760
the universe works that we do understand, and we understand

1236
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:40,039
those things without the need for Jehovah. So, I mean,

1237
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,559
I just it seems like you're starting off on a

1238
01:05:42,639 --> 01:05:46,360
track going to a god of the gaps is where

1239
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,760
immediately that's where my brain goes. I don't know if

1240
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:50,840
that's where you're going, but you're basically saying, oh, we

1241
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,639
don't know how all this works, and there's something that

1242
01:05:53,679 --> 01:05:57,400
I don't understand. Therefore it's magical. Therefore it's Jehovah because

1243
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,360
this book that I like says that it's just Jovah.

1244
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,159
Maybe I'm wrong about where you're going with this.

1245
01:06:03,559 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, the Bible has a God, and as God

1246
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:11,280
is Jehovah. Hy hbh all who's the Bible?

1247
01:06:11,719 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 7: Jewey?

1248
01:06:12,159 --> 01:06:15,039
Speaker 2: Okay, the Jews right right right now. I'm sorry.

1249
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,679
Speaker 1: I just want to cut through all of that. Because

1250
01:06:18,039 --> 01:06:21,159
we understand that we understand the Hebrew Bible, we understand

1251
01:06:21,199 --> 01:06:22,039
the Christian.

1252
01:06:22,519 --> 01:06:24,039
Speaker 2: By version of the Bible.

1253
01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: What we want to know is exactly why do you

1254
01:06:28,159 --> 01:06:32,840
think that Jehovah exists outside of the Bible, Like what

1255
01:06:33,159 --> 01:06:37,000
kind of like real things in reality point to the

1256
01:06:37,199 --> 01:06:38,599
need for this God.

1257
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 6: Well, this God, Jehovah comes to each individual, everybody and everywhere,

1258
01:06:44,519 --> 01:06:47,280
puts out his hands. He says, take me in and

1259
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:48,280
do Charles.

1260
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 3: Now, Charles, I know that what you just said sounds

1261
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,280
really pretty to you. I know that what you just

1262
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:59,039
said makes you feel really good. Okay, And I just

1263
01:06:59,199 --> 01:07:01,719
want to start off by saying, I'm not trying to

1264
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,679
shit on all of that. I'm not trying to take

1265
01:07:03,719 --> 01:07:06,599
away your happiness here, Okay. What I am trying to

1266
01:07:06,679 --> 01:07:09,679
do is let you know that there's a friend of mine,

1267
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,519
friend of a friend of this channel who's been dying

1268
01:07:12,639 --> 01:07:16,559
of als for over half a fucking decade and spent

1269
01:07:16,679 --> 01:07:22,280
his entire goddamn life seeking and serving and loving the Lord,

1270
01:07:22,519 --> 01:07:26,639
and he is dying from als. Every single day he

1271
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,760
gets worse and worse. And you're gonna sit here and

1272
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,800
try to tell me that the Lord opened up his

1273
01:07:33,039 --> 01:07:36,639
fucking arms to Dave. Fuck that man. You're gonna tell

1274
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,239
me that that eight year old girl who was fucking

1275
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,480
murdered in her sleep last month, You're gonna tell me

1276
01:07:43,719 --> 01:07:46,719
that the Lord opened up his fucking arms to her.

1277
01:07:47,079 --> 01:07:50,760
Come on, man, like, give us something real. Don't give

1278
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,599
me that, Don't give me that bullshit. Like I again

1279
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,519
I get it. It feels good when you say it

1280
01:07:56,599 --> 01:07:59,079
to yourself. You say, look, the Lord came to me

1281
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,280
and loves me and all that shit. But come on, man,

1282
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,199
give us something real, like what is it out there

1283
01:08:05,599 --> 01:08:09,400
that we can look at and go, yeah, there it is,

1284
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,119
that's God. Because if you say something like that again, man,

1285
01:08:13,519 --> 01:08:16,239
I'm just not gonna let it go. I'm not gonna

1286
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:18,600
have it. Man. I see too much of the garbage.

1287
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 11: So what is it?

1288
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 3: What do you got for us, Charles? Why? Why should

1289
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,960
we believe Jehovah's real? Not the Bible, not because he

1290
01:08:27,119 --> 01:08:29,239
comes to all of us and gives us his fucking

1291
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:30,880
love and shit? What do you got?

1292
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, everybody's an individual, and everybody has the mind.

1293
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:41,119
Everybody can think, and everybody can really except that they want.

1294
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:43,520
They don't have to believe that God exist. They don't

1295
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,000
have to believe that God. But I do it.

1296
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:47,039
Speaker 2: Do you think?

1297
01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:49,159
Speaker 3: Do you think there's a hell? Do you think there's

1298
01:08:49,199 --> 01:08:49,520
a hell?

1299
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:50,039
Speaker 2: Charles?

1300
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:52,520
Speaker 3: Do I get tortured for all eternity if I don't

1301
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:53,239
believe in God?

1302
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: In your view?

1303
01:08:54,159 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 3: No, Well that's great. Let me tell you something. You're

1304
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:00,439
a fucking minority, and that's awesome, Charles, join in with

1305
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,319
all of us in the atheist camp, and let's tell

1306
01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:07,319
those Let's tell those hardcore evangelicals that are going out

1307
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:10,039
there preaching to everybody that they're gonna burn for eternity

1308
01:09:10,079 --> 01:09:12,239
if they don't believe in you lock step with them.

1309
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:16,159
Let's go tell them their shit is wrong. First, you

1310
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:19,119
go convince them you're gonna have a better fucking chance

1311
01:09:19,199 --> 01:09:21,640
than I am. I don't believe in Jehovah at all.

1312
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,479
They're not gonna fucking listen to me. Like, so you

1313
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,960
go out there and tell them, hey, man, you're wrong

1314
01:09:29,079 --> 01:09:30,960
on all of this. Let me tell you why your

1315
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,279
God's not real. Let me fix you. And then once

1316
01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:37,119
y'all are all on the same page, come back to us, man,

1317
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:40,560
and we're we'll happily talk about it then. But like,

1318
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:44,159
come on, man, don't don't tell me that you called

1319
01:09:44,239 --> 01:09:46,760
into the show. Don't tell me that you sat on

1320
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,880
hold for nearly thirty minutes to just go like, nah,

1321
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,199
y'all believe whatever you want. Hey, John, I don't care, man,

1322
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,119
You do what you gonna do. Man, you wanna go

1323
01:09:57,239 --> 01:09:59,880
out there and make fun of Jesus and say he's

1324
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:04,039
some zombie or what you do it? Like, come on, Charles, like,

1325
01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:07,039
give us something, man, we are here and ready. We

1326
01:10:07,399 --> 01:10:10,359
want to be convinced if there is good reason to

1327
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,439
believe Jesus.

1328
01:10:12,199 --> 01:10:17,079
Speaker 6: Is the devil, Christians are evil a worship said devil constantly.

1329
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:19,119
Speaker 2: No, look we're not.

1330
01:10:19,239 --> 01:10:21,319
Speaker 1: We're not here to talk about Christians because you're not

1331
01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:24,199
a Christian. So, I mean, I get that you have

1332
01:10:24,359 --> 01:10:27,039
this crazy idea about Christians being evil and whatnot, which

1333
01:10:27,119 --> 01:10:31,680
is kind of crazy to me. But we're just like

1334
01:10:32,039 --> 01:10:36,520
we've heard you in that God that Jehovah has revealed

1335
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,319
himself to everybody, but that's obviously not the case. I know,

1336
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:41,920
he hasn't revealed himself to me.

1337
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, I thought he froze for

1338
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:48,760
a second. Gee sorry go ahead, Oh.

1339
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry those those my bad.

1340
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:54,319
Speaker 1: So I like, as a Christian, I thought that God

1341
01:10:54,399 --> 01:10:58,199
revealed himself through just normal happenstance, things that happened, Like

1342
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:00,920
you know, I thought about I had a dream about

1343
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,399
birds and then all of a sudden a bird landed

1344
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,800
on like outside my school window.

1345
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:06,159
Speaker 2: Or something like that.

1346
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:10,239
Speaker 1: That's a sign from God, like something, you know, stupid

1347
01:11:10,359 --> 01:11:11,840
like that is what I thought.

1348
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 11: Now, whether or not.

1349
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 2: That's good theology.

1350
01:11:14,319 --> 01:11:14,560
Speaker 8: I was.

1351
01:11:15,199 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: I was taught you know, through my churches and everything

1352
01:11:18,039 --> 01:11:21,000
like that, that God spoke to you in the very

1353
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,000
mundane kind of things that happened every day and so

1354
01:11:25,159 --> 01:11:26,279
like that's God speaking to you.

1355
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:28,319
Speaker 2: So like, is that what you're talking about?

1356
01:11:28,359 --> 01:11:28,399
Speaker 8: Like?

1357
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 2: Does God reveal himself or yahweh?

1358
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 1: Does he reveal himself just through mundane things that happened?

1359
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:34,039
Speaker 5: No?

1360
01:11:34,399 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 6: Not, yahweh. Where did you get that from? There's no

1361
01:11:37,039 --> 01:11:37,520
such thing.

1362
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 2: Sorry, I met Jehovah. Jehovah.

1363
01:11:40,239 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 3: That definitely shouldn't have been the thing you took on

1364
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:47,520
bridge with Charles. But please go ahead. Does Jehovah reveal

1365
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,479
himself and just mundane, everyday ordinary things.

1366
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 6: Yes, he does, come right up to you, take me in.

1367
01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay, good, Well I'm right. I'm glad that you

1368
01:11:57,039 --> 01:11:57,399
believe that.

1369
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:00,319
Speaker 1: So if you believe that, can you please help me

1370
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,840
connect the dots here in the mundane things that happen

1371
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:11,600
in reality, in everyday life, connect that too, Jehovah's existence.

1372
01:12:12,159 --> 01:12:13,680
Can you please connect those dots for me?

1373
01:12:14,199 --> 01:12:17,039
Speaker 6: Well, it's uh, eve invisible, so you can't see him.

1374
01:12:17,319 --> 01:12:20,399
You can't say, hey that there he is there over there.

1375
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:26,319
Speaker 3: Do you feel like that's the problem, Charles like, like,

1376
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,000
I look right off the rip man. That should make

1377
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:35,880
you say like, ah, you know, hmm, I don't feel

1378
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:37,720
good about this thing being real?

1379
01:12:38,359 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: Like sorry, well, And I also want to say that

1380
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,920
we can't see X rays, we can't see gamma rays,

1381
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,319
but we know that they're there because they are detectable.

1382
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:51,800
You don't visual visual is Visually is not the only

1383
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:52,399
way that.

1384
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 2: You can detect God.

1385
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,039
Speaker 1: You can detect God in multiple different kinds of ways.

1386
01:12:57,119 --> 01:12:59,680
So I mean that's why I'm asking you to connect

1387
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,199
the dots here. Can you connect the dots between mundane

1388
01:13:02,279 --> 01:13:08,680
things happening in reality to Jehovah causing those things to happen?

1389
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:10,520
Can can you connect that for me?

1390
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 6: Well, I'm just saying that he is there. You can't

1391
01:13:14,039 --> 01:13:17,640
accept him, and he will come into you. He will

1392
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,479
be with you and go about with good work.

1393
01:13:21,079 --> 01:13:23,239
Speaker 2: What if I don't want God coming into me?

1394
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't need Does he get elbowed deep? Or

1395
01:13:27,239 --> 01:13:30,840
like how deep does he get? Like you know, I think,

1396
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:33,239
wasn't there was a story about somebody sixty nine ing

1397
01:13:33,279 --> 01:13:36,439
with God? Wasn't Jacob like grabbing God's dick or Jake

1398
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:40,600
was it doesn't matter. Look definitely, Look Look Charles, Charles,

1399
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:42,560
I know, always being silly there for a second, but

1400
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,880
I want to be very direct. Okay, I really really

1401
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:50,159
think that what you just said is a bit of bullshit. Okay,

1402
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:52,439
And I think you, I think you agree with that.

1403
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,439
And here's why I think you agree with that is

1404
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:58,760
because if somebody else came up to you and said

1405
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:02,680
all of this same shit, but it was about Muhammad

1406
01:14:03,079 --> 01:14:07,560
or Vishnu or Thor or Bigfoot or the fact that

1407
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,000
the Earth is flat or that the moon isn't real,

1408
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,159
or that the Earth is hollow, or that germs don't

1409
01:14:14,199 --> 01:14:17,000
exist or birds or fucking drones or any of these

1410
01:14:17,159 --> 01:14:22,640
other ridiculous things. Man, you would feel just as unsatisfied

1411
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:26,840
as Ge and I feel right now. Because you gotta

1412
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:30,319
be kidding me. Man, You believe this thing, and it

1413
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:35,199
is one of the most important things. It radically changes

1414
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,600
everything about your reality. If Jehovah is not real, and

1415
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,600
yet with an opportunity to say, hey, guys, here's why

1416
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:44,960
you should believe it, you.

1417
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:46,199
Speaker 2: Fall back on.

1418
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:51,319
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's like, if you want, you

1419
01:14:51,399 --> 01:14:54,560
don't have to. I don't know what, Come on, man,

1420
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:58,760
come on, like, that's BS, that's BS. You know, you

1421
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:00,720
know there's a reason to bel leave this. You know,

1422
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:04,720
you have a reason to believe it. And I guess,

1423
01:15:05,239 --> 01:15:07,840
I guess it's not that great of a reason, Charles.

1424
01:15:08,119 --> 01:15:10,760
And that's the thing, man, I want good reasons. I

1425
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:13,119
want you to have a good reason to believe what

1426
01:15:13,319 --> 01:15:13,880
you believe.

1427
01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:14,319
Speaker 8: You know.

1428
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,479
Speaker 3: And it's a little selfish, like you might feel like

1429
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:19,720
all I'm doing is trying to make you a better person.

1430
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:23,279
I mean, that's a great byproduct. But honestly, what I

1431
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:25,800
am thinking about is the fact that if more of

1432
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:31,399
us are coming to reasoned conclusions, we are justifying our

1433
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:36,000
answers based on solid skepticism and evidence, then I'm not

1434
01:15:36,159 --> 01:15:38,560
gonna have to deal with as much bullshit in the

1435
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:40,079
fucking world as I feel like.

1436
01:15:40,159 --> 01:15:40,640
Speaker 8: I have to.

1437
01:15:41,079 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 3: So it's selfish, it's very selfish. But Charles, I'm gonna

1438
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:46,840
let you go, man, unless you got anything else to say, ge,

1439
01:15:47,119 --> 01:15:48,359
you got any other thoughts.

1440
01:15:48,319 --> 01:15:52,079
Speaker 1: Well, I was just gonna follow up with the way

1441
01:15:52,159 --> 01:15:53,239
that Charles responded.

1442
01:15:53,399 --> 01:15:56,039
Speaker 3: It just sounds if you have your questions, man, yeah, yeah,

1443
01:15:56,199 --> 01:15:57,680
I'll bring them back. I won't let him go.

1444
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh no, I was just gonna say that it

1445
01:16:00,359 --> 01:16:03,199
just sounds ad hoc, like, oh, he just you know,

1446
01:16:03,399 --> 01:16:07,359
he's you know, God just exists or Jehovah just exists.

1447
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,520
It just I me personally, and I feel like a

1448
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:14,439
lot of atheists and agnostics and skeptical people out there,

1449
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:17,199
but we need actually something more than just an ad

1450
01:16:17,239 --> 01:16:21,119
hoc statement or claim that that got Jehovah exists.

1451
01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, I think so too. But Charles, thank you.

1452
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:27,159
We really do appreciate you. And I hope you'll watch

1453
01:16:27,199 --> 01:16:29,680
this back and give us a call back, man, because

1454
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,439
I do. I want to know, Like, I don't want

1455
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:34,680
you to just say to me, no, man, you can

1456
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,800
believe it if you want or like whatever, or no.

1457
01:16:38,359 --> 01:16:40,680
This is one of the most fucking important things ever.

1458
01:16:41,039 --> 01:16:43,199
There's a reason that you believe this and you care

1459
01:16:43,239 --> 01:16:45,840
about this. This matters to you in your life, Charles,

1460
01:16:46,119 --> 01:16:48,560
and I want to understand that reason, and if it's

1461
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:50,399
a good reason, I'm going to accept it and I'm

1462
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:53,079
going to join your fucking side. But we did not

1463
01:16:53,239 --> 01:16:57,520
get that today. That's okay, though, you know, because we

1464
01:16:57,680 --> 01:16:59,479
do have some other great calls and we are going

1465
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,079
to go right to them. But before we do that

1466
01:17:02,399 --> 01:17:05,720
I have to shout out a wonderful group of people.

1467
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:09,520
There is, week in and week out, some people that

1468
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:13,319
devote their time and their efforts to making this show

1469
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,039
happen and all of the other amazing shows on this

1470
01:17:16,399 --> 01:17:19,039
great network. So can we see the crew? Can we

1471
01:17:19,119 --> 01:17:24,520
see those amazing, amazing faces? They are so so kind.

1472
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:26,800
I can see a few of them are looking a

1473
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:31,199
bit disappointed. They don't look angry yet, they just look disappointed.

1474
01:17:31,359 --> 01:17:35,159
So we will find out what exactly I have done.

1475
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:39,199
I can't think of anything I might have done something

1476
01:17:39,399 --> 01:17:41,439
I don't Was it the sex toys thing? Do you

1477
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:43,560
think it was talking about ACA sex toys?

1478
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:44,399
Speaker 2: Do you think I was saying?

1479
01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think it was the It was the whole

1480
01:17:47,079 --> 01:17:51,239
ACA condom thing. I mean think, I mean, where are

1481
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:53,840
you going to get those from? And everything you're gonna put? Like?

1482
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,640
Speaker 3: I mean, are you allowed as a as a as

1483
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,560
a nonprofit to sell condoms? I don't know if that's it.

1484
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,560
You could give them out right and you don't. It

1485
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,960
doesn't matter because we are going to go out to Texas.

1486
01:18:05,359 --> 01:18:09,000
We've got Reverend Van Kush he him wants to talk

1487
01:18:09,079 --> 01:18:12,680
about Hinduism a little bit it sounds like, well, hey, Rev,

1488
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:17,279
we are I'm secularity. That's godless engineer what you got for?

1489
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:21,319
Speaker 9: All right? So I know y'all want to talk about

1490
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:24,560
like yahweh and everything existing, but so I want to

1491
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:26,840
talk about like what the aighties kind of called little

1492
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:31,199
g gods. So first I would say, there are these

1493
01:18:31,239 --> 01:18:34,720
things called ragori, all right. And usually when these are

1494
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:37,239
talked about, they're talked about the mostly the invisible ones.

1495
01:18:37,279 --> 01:18:38,720
But I'll start with the ones we can see, just

1496
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,039
so that everybody can kind of grasp this. Right, There

1497
01:18:42,119 --> 01:18:45,439
are stuff like the sun and the planets, right then,

1498
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:47,239
we can all see them, and they're there whether or

1499
01:18:47,239 --> 01:18:51,279
not we're there, and they exist outside of us. But

1500
01:18:51,359 --> 01:18:53,680
there are edgrigoria that exists between us, all right. Another

1501
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:56,600
word for egrigoriya is poltergeist. All right, And then so

1502
01:18:57,479 --> 01:18:58,640
these things exist, and.

1503
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,079
Speaker 3: Hang on real real quick, hang on real quick. I'm

1504
01:19:01,119 --> 01:19:03,039
not trying to push back. I'm not trying to I'm

1505
01:19:03,039 --> 01:19:05,319
not trying to shot on anything, just trying to understand

1506
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,359
just some clarity. Okay, are you saying that the sun

1507
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:12,399
and the moon and like Mars, like are those agrigori?

1508
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,840
If I'm saying that right, is that what you're saying.

1509
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:18,239
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why the ancient religions would personify

1510
01:19:18,279 --> 01:19:20,680
them and everything is because of their their quality.

1511
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 3: Okay, what are the what are the characteristics of agrigori?

1512
01:19:25,159 --> 01:19:28,640
Because I would say between the sun and the moon

1513
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:32,159
and Mars alone, I don't know that all three of

1514
01:19:32,239 --> 01:19:35,560
those things exactly fit into the same category. Right, There's

1515
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,960
a huge difference between what's going on with the moon

1516
01:19:39,039 --> 01:19:40,479
and what's going on with the sun.

1517
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 9: The thegrigori part of it is the non physical part

1518
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,760
of it, the thing that we can't see. That, yeah,

1519
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,199
that is part of it. So the sun, for example,

1520
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:52,199
we can't see. Even light is almost one of the

1521
01:19:52,279 --> 01:19:54,720
things we can't see, and it's a titan, and great

1522
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:58,760
mythology and other mythologies, it's a the light is a titan, right,

1523
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:01,920
So that it's so is an example of something that

1524
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:02,960
we almost can't see.

1525
01:20:03,239 --> 01:20:05,319
Speaker 2: And then I'm confused.

1526
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 3: I'm confused, and I'm not again, I'm genuinely just trying

1527
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,960
to make sure that I'm I'm following the trail of

1528
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,960
breadcrumbs that you're leaving for me here, but currently I

1529
01:20:17,079 --> 01:20:19,880
have no fucking idea where I'm going in the forest. Okay,

1530
01:20:20,159 --> 01:20:22,800
so help me out just a little bit, which is

1531
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:24,920
hang on, hang on just a second. I'm gonna I'm

1532
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,239
gonna try and direct it a little because without some

1533
01:20:27,359 --> 01:20:30,239
of these things being answered, I don't feel like ge

1534
01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:32,000
and I are ever going to be able to follow

1535
01:20:32,039 --> 01:20:35,039
you on this journey very far. But when you say

1536
01:20:35,199 --> 01:20:37,920
when you say, like there's some things going on with

1537
01:20:38,039 --> 01:20:41,800
the sun, for instance, that are non physical, Like what

1538
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:46,439
like what like what's happening that's non physical? I have

1539
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:47,680
no idea what that means.

1540
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, so the like how light comes to

1541
01:20:51,079 --> 01:20:54,199
Earth and then like we have plants growing, we have

1542
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:56,439
all this stuff going on because of non physical things

1543
01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:56,960
that are happening.

1544
01:20:57,119 --> 01:20:58,520
Speaker 2: Like all those things are physical.

1545
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, photosynthesis is like really physical. It's like extremely physical,

1546
01:21:04,159 --> 01:21:07,159
you know, like the rain cycle is like really physical.

1547
01:21:07,319 --> 01:21:11,560
Speaker 9: Man, So like because of the non physical, what's non.

1548
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:12,359
Speaker 2: Physical about it?

1549
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1550
01:21:13,199 --> 01:21:17,239
Speaker 1: Well, so the electromagnetic spectrum, hold on, hold on, So

1551
01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:20,880
the electromagnetic spectrum is a very physical thing. How how

1552
01:21:21,039 --> 01:21:23,479
photons are emitted from the Sun is a very physical

1553
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:26,479
process of fission that happens in the center of stars.

1554
01:21:27,399 --> 01:21:31,560
There's an intense heat and pressure that causes atoms to

1555
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:35,760
fission together, uh, creating heavier elements and everything like that's

1556
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:39,560
how you get heavier elements. That particular process right there

1557
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:44,920
causes photons and energy to be emitted. That's then emitted

1558
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,239
from the Sun going to the surface uh of the Earth,

1559
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:52,199
where then in the particular example you gave, like it

1560
01:21:52,319 --> 01:21:56,560
interacts with plant life on Earth, which stimulates uh you know,

1561
01:21:56,800 --> 01:22:02,520
uh the biological nature of plants, uh, and through various

1562
01:22:03,279 --> 01:22:08,800
very physical chemical processes and uh physical structures in the plant. Uh.

1563
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:13,760
It it turns that that electromagnetic uh radiation which we

1564
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:19,039
call light into energy. And so all this entire energy

1565
01:22:19,079 --> 01:22:21,640
transformation coming from the Sun going all the way to

1566
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:25,720
the Earth to the plants, it is a completely physical process.

1567
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:27,600
Speaker 2: So what part of that process?

1568
01:22:28,119 --> 01:22:30,199
Speaker 9: So if we can get into that being physical, could

1569
01:22:30,239 --> 01:22:31,920
we get into that words are physical?

1570
01:22:32,039 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 2: I'm sorry?

1571
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:34,720
Speaker 9: What when you say something, When you say something and

1572
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:36,960
it vibrates from my ear to your ear, my mouth

1573
01:22:37,039 --> 01:22:38,720
to your ear, your mouth to my ear. I we're

1574
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:40,319
now saying that is a physical process.

1575
01:22:41,279 --> 01:22:44,039
Speaker 3: It sounds like it sounds like you're trying to talk

1576
01:22:44,119 --> 01:22:47,960
about like thoughts and concepts and things.

1577
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1578
01:22:49,239 --> 01:22:53,399
Speaker 3: So so so there's there's a lot of different discussion

1579
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,560
on this. There's a lot of different people and you know,

1580
01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:00,439
very high academic philosophical circles that have talked about this

1581
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,159
shit for a really long time. I am not that person.

1582
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:05,880
I am not that I am not that intelligent. Rev

1583
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:08,640
don't don't don't don't you know, check me on all

1584
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:12,319
of this. Go look into shit like that. Like Patricia Churchland,

1585
01:23:12,399 --> 01:23:15,479
for instance, is somebody that I have looked into and

1586
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,000
have enjoyed some of her stuff in the past. She

1587
01:23:18,159 --> 01:23:21,600
talks about She's talked about like memory and like where

1588
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:24,199
that is in the brain. And memory is another one

1589
01:23:24,239 --> 01:23:27,159
of those things that seems to fit into this space

1590
01:23:27,239 --> 01:23:31,800
of non material right, just like thoughts, right, just like concepts,

1591
01:23:32,159 --> 01:23:35,359
memories seem to all fit into that same kind of space.

1592
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:39,279
But as we are studying more and more about the

1593
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:43,039
science of the brain, about how we are able to

1594
01:23:43,239 --> 01:23:47,079
actually do things with the squishy substance up here in

1595
01:23:47,159 --> 01:23:49,720
our head, we're coming to find out there is more

1596
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:53,880
and more physical correlation between those. Right. So you might

1597
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:57,000
be familiar with like the corpus colosum, the split brain

1598
01:23:57,119 --> 01:23:59,439
experiments from the past. You may have heard about some

1599
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:03,920
dudes called Phineas Gauge. All of those are really fascinating

1600
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:07,479
things that we have from the past, and the most

1601
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:12,920
recent stuff we've got so far seems to continue to

1602
01:24:13,079 --> 01:24:16,960
point in that direction in a really really hardcore way.

1603
01:24:17,119 --> 01:24:17,319
Speaker 8: Man.

1604
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 3: So like, I get that it's a little bit weird

1605
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:25,560
when we talk about, you know again, like love, you know, happiness.

1606
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:29,439
You know you can't give me a couple of happiness. Yeah,

1607
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:31,439
I get you, man, But it is all it is

1608
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:35,720
all this thing that is a subset under material stuff.

1609
01:24:36,039 --> 01:24:38,520
All of the material stuff has to be there. We

1610
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:41,119
gotta have the vocal cords, you gotta have the ear drum,

1611
01:24:41,199 --> 01:24:43,600
you gotta have the medium for it to vibrate. I know,

1612
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,960
I know, I said a bunch. I know I rambled

1613
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:48,439
a little. Apologize, Rev, and give you a second to

1614
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:51,119
say some stuff back, but go ahead.

1615
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 9: All right. So, actually Ergrigor's or Ergrigori, most of the

1616
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:57,560
time they do have multiple people involved, like a seance,

1617
01:24:57,600 --> 01:24:59,920
you could even call it like an orgy, an edgergor.

1618
01:25:00,239 --> 01:25:03,000
But there's not just the people that are there. There

1619
01:25:03,079 --> 01:25:06,560
are invisible entities like we were talking about, and feel like.

1620
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,119
Speaker 3: To what I said, no he didn't.

1621
01:25:10,239 --> 01:25:14,159
Speaker 1: Also, I'm very intrigued by an orgy of Poulter guys

1622
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:18,960
like to like after seeing the Poultergeist movie, Like, I

1623
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:21,119
feel like that is just a horror show.

1624
01:25:22,319 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 3: Like think about from the perspective of ghosts. Though, if

1625
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:26,840
you think about it from that movie, like that could

1626
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:28,600
be a good one you could do alright with that.

1627
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:32,000
It's like Debbie Moore and shit, man kidding it. No,

1628
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,079
I don't feel like. I don't really feel like you

1629
01:25:35,239 --> 01:25:38,760
were listening to me at all. I know I kind

1630
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:42,199
of ramble and my voice is not particularly fun to

1631
01:25:42,279 --> 01:25:45,159
listen to. But I really do feel like I gave

1632
01:25:45,279 --> 01:25:48,800
at least a decent response to the idea that, like,

1633
01:25:49,119 --> 01:25:52,359
you know, non physical things like you know, thoughts or

1634
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:56,720
memory or whatever. I thought, I gave a decent response

1635
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,800
to Hey, those actually are rooted in matis real shit,

1636
01:26:01,279 --> 01:26:03,039
So any any thoughts on that?

1637
01:26:03,319 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 11: Man?

1638
01:26:04,079 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 3: You know, whether they're physical or not.

1639
01:26:06,199 --> 01:26:09,239
Speaker 9: So what I'm saying is that these these non physical

1640
01:26:09,399 --> 01:26:12,079
entities require physical things most of the time, right, It

1641
01:26:12,199 --> 01:26:15,880
requires multiple people to come together to perform something to

1642
01:26:16,079 --> 01:26:18,800
create these non physical entities. That's how most of them exist,

1643
01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:21,039
all right. But if you look at the company like that,

1644
01:26:21,159 --> 01:26:22,199
but but but you have.

1645
01:26:22,279 --> 01:26:25,399
Speaker 1: Yet to point out anything that's actually non physical, right,

1646
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:29,319
Like you're just claiming the non physical. See, this is

1647
01:26:29,359 --> 01:26:32,439
the problem with all of the callers today there, Van Kush,

1648
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:37,399
is that you're you're you're talking about things without actually substantiate,

1649
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:40,560
Like you're making claims that substantiating these claims. So like

1650
01:26:41,319 --> 01:26:43,920
you have yet to give us something that's non physical.

1651
01:26:44,039 --> 01:26:45,840
And I'm just gonna because I know that you say

1652
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:47,840
poultry geist and all this sort of stuff. We haven't

1653
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:53,680
proven poultry geist or the Gregori orgies. We haven't been

1654
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:57,359
able to there's nothing that substantiates those things. If you

1655
01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:01,720
cannot detect something in reaction, does that mean that that

1656
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:03,760
thing actually exists in reality?

1657
01:27:04,039 --> 01:27:06,720
Speaker 9: Well, okay, so the example given was memory, right, So

1658
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:09,159
memory is one these are most of these are thought form.

1659
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:12,520
Speaker 1: Memory is a physical process, Like it's something that's contained

1660
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:14,760
in your brain. It's it's, uh, you know, the physical

1661
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:18,479
structure of your brain controls like memories. Like there's a

1662
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:22,319
whole physical process for like converting short.

1663
01:27:22,199 --> 01:27:23,720
Speaker 2: Term memory to long term memory.

1664
01:27:24,159 --> 01:27:24,279
Speaker 8: Uh.

1665
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,800
Speaker 1: Memory itself is stored in your in brain cells in

1666
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:31,880
different in different ways, and it's accessed through chemical processes.

1667
01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:35,600
So all of that's very very like physical or it's

1668
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:40,680
a it's a mergent from uh physical processes and physical structures.

1669
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:44,159
Speaker 2: So like that's you need something better, I guess, is

1670
01:27:44,239 --> 01:27:44,640
my point?

1671
01:27:45,039 --> 01:27:47,520
Speaker 9: Well, if I store, if I store a physical memory

1672
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:49,800
on the stone and then somebody reads it two thousand

1673
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:53,000
years later, and that memory is released by being I mean,

1674
01:27:53,159 --> 01:27:55,720
through that person reading it in their brain, what the

1675
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:57,079
fuck does this mean?

1676
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:02,680
Speaker 3: You're using some of those words incorrectly. Okay, you are

1677
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:06,119
not storing memory when you take a rock and you

1678
01:28:06,239 --> 01:28:09,479
scratch another rock with it, and you put symbols on

1679
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:14,000
that that you and your tribe understands, and then one

1680
01:28:14,039 --> 01:28:17,760
thousand fucking years some other tribe digs that shit up

1681
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:21,199
and tries to read it. You're not storing memory on

1682
01:28:21,439 --> 01:28:21,880
the rock.

1683
01:28:22,159 --> 01:28:22,319
Speaker 6: Right.

1684
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:25,520
Speaker 3: That's a really poetic and flowery way to say it,

1685
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:30,840
because we as people love poetic and flowery things, right,

1686
01:28:31,159 --> 01:28:33,840
But that is not actually what's happening there.

1687
01:28:34,159 --> 01:28:34,319
Speaker 8: Right.

1688
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 3: What you're doing is you're making an intention in the rock, right.

1689
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:43,319
You're transferring maybe some of the quartz crystalline structure onto

1690
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,960
some other blah blah whatever fuck it, right, but you're

1691
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:51,520
not storing memory in that same capacity, right, and same

1692
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:55,800
thing with a computer, like when you are actually storing

1693
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:59,720
memory on a computer, that's physical as fuck. Man, I mean,

1694
01:29:00,239 --> 01:29:03,119
like Ge was saying, with memory. The reason why I

1695
01:29:03,239 --> 01:29:06,800
brought up memory is because it's often used in this

1696
01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:09,880
same category where people say, oh, we just you can't

1697
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,520
point to it in the brain, there's no physical correlation.

1698
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:17,600
But as we continue to study that shit, we absolutely

1699
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:21,960
seem to find it seems to really really involve the

1700
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:25,279
physical shit. And all the time we get this, Man,

1701
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,560
every single time we get this where somebody comes on

1702
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:32,439
and says, man, I agree, there is physical stuff. It's

1703
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:34,680
out there. You see it, I see it, We all

1704
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:37,840
interact with it. But then there's this extra shit, and

1705
01:29:38,039 --> 01:29:40,279
that's what we are interested in. That's what John and

1706
01:29:40,319 --> 01:29:43,560
I want to know about. If you've got a good

1707
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:47,720
reason to believe in that extra stuff, help us out, like,

1708
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:51,560
show us the non physical things. But so far, every

1709
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:53,960
single time, and this isn't just you, Reverend, this this

1710
01:29:54,119 --> 01:29:57,039
is everybody today. So far we're not getting anything. So

1711
01:29:57,359 --> 01:30:00,279
help us, help us see what we are missing? Right,

1712
01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:04,399
how do we detect these aggregory things? How do we

1713
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:06,960
know that something is non physical?

1714
01:30:07,199 --> 01:30:10,720
Speaker 9: Okay? So how do you know something non physical? I mean,

1715
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:12,479
it's the same as words and stuff. I mean, do

1716
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:14,319
you just you can't see it and it's there.

1717
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,199
Speaker 3: You can't see you can't see. Hold up, but you

1718
01:30:17,319 --> 01:30:21,039
can't see, like diseases and they're there. You can't see

1719
01:30:21,199 --> 01:30:22,439
germs and they're there.

1720
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:23,079
Speaker 5: Right.

1721
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:27,159
Speaker 1: Also, if you really wanted to get pedantic about words

1722
01:30:27,239 --> 01:30:30,960
and everything like that, and you're not talking about the thoughts,

1723
01:30:31,039 --> 01:30:35,640
the emergent thoughts that are caught that represent are represented

1724
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:38,119
by these words, if you're talking about the physical process

1725
01:30:38,199 --> 01:30:41,880
of words and processing words, that's literally just pressure waves

1726
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:45,640
in the air, pressure waves in a fluid medium that

1727
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:49,600
is traveling to your ear drums, which then convert those

1728
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:53,279
pressure waves into something that is supposed to make sense

1729
01:30:53,319 --> 01:30:58,319
to your brain. And some people's brains have problems, you know,

1730
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:03,600
processing auditorily. Me sometimes I have problems with auditory processing,

1731
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:06,680
and sometimes it takes me a second to really understand

1732
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:09,800
what somebody is saying. So, like, this is all a

1733
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:14,600
very physical process, and just because like the whole idea,

1734
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,880
like ideas in general, are more emergent properties of a

1735
01:31:19,039 --> 01:31:22,079
complex central nervous system that doesn't detract from the physical

1736
01:31:22,239 --> 01:31:24,680
nature and the physical grounding of these things.

1737
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:27,319
Speaker 9: Well, they do have to have some kind of physical thing,

1738
01:31:27,399 --> 01:31:30,039
because like, okay, if the Sun didn't exist, if Mars

1739
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:33,039
didn't exist, if Jupiter didn't exist, that then we wouldn't

1740
01:31:33,079 --> 01:31:35,720
have those two ground those things on. There is always

1741
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:37,640
some kind of physical thing. And as I was saying,

1742
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:41,479
with the orgies and the seances, there's between people, right.

1743
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,520
Speaker 3: So hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on,

1744
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:46,680
hang on, hang on. The reason I'm jumping in is

1745
01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:49,720
because I mean, I'm just laughing about the orgies thing.

1746
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:53,479
Just sixty nine days left for the bat cruise, folks. Anyway,

1747
01:31:54,239 --> 01:31:56,680
here's here's the thing. Here's the thing. When you tell

1748
01:31:56,760 --> 01:31:59,560
me that these non physical things, when you tell me

1749
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:04,039
these on material things have to have a grounding in

1750
01:32:04,119 --> 01:32:06,479
the material and the physical stuff, this is where you

1751
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:10,279
lose me, man, because this is where I feel like

1752
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:14,359
I'm getting told that the ice cream Sunday in front

1753
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:18,279
of me is shit because it doesn't have magic sprinkles.

1754
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,640
And the other person is telling me that their ice

1755
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:24,600
cream Sunday has magic sprinkles. But I'm looking back and

1756
01:32:24,720 --> 01:32:28,359
forth at are fucking cups and they look exactly the same.

1757
01:32:28,680 --> 01:32:31,039
And so this is where I'm at. Again, You're saying

1758
01:32:31,119 --> 01:32:33,319
to me, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. The

1759
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:37,600
ghosts have to have a correlation to the physical realm.

1760
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:41,840
And I'm like, okay, well, so then show me the ghosts.

1761
01:32:42,279 --> 01:32:45,399
If you're telling me that these eggrigor I have to

1762
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:49,600
be connected to a fucking moon or a bunch of

1763
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,880
people getting it on late on a Friday night or whatever. Like,

1764
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:55,520
if that's the case, then all you have to do

1765
01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:58,960
now is show me where's the ghost? Like, where is

1766
01:32:59,039 --> 01:33:01,680
it in all of this? It between somebody's butt cheeks?

1767
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:05,039
Is it somewhere in the calm? Just help me out, man.

1768
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,840
Speaker 9: The creator there's there. There is a creator of all

1769
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:09,840
of it. This is your word speaking about a creation,

1770
01:33:10,159 --> 01:33:12,720
and that's that's where that's that we're talking about a creation.

1771
01:33:13,119 --> 01:33:16,880
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, there is then ven cush.

1772
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:21,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to propose that this creator is actually an

1773
01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:25,720
invisible pink unicorn. That's an idea that's been floated around. Uh,

1774
01:33:26,079 --> 01:33:29,199
how how would you refute me in just ad hoc

1775
01:33:29,319 --> 01:33:32,119
stating that this creator that you're talking about that loves

1776
01:33:32,279 --> 01:33:35,119
orgies and all that kind of stuff isn't just some

1777
01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:38,880
kind of sadistic pink unicorn that likes to violate people

1778
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:41,600
in their sleep, like it was a scene from Ghostbusters.

1779
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:44,640
Speaker 9: Well, first off, because you can't see it. And God

1780
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:47,199
did tell David that his son was going to have

1781
01:33:47,279 --> 01:33:49,039
sex with all his wives, and then God had his

1782
01:33:49,159 --> 01:33:50,920
son have sex with all his wives because of what

1783
01:33:51,039 --> 01:33:53,880
he had done. All right, so it's not like outside.

1784
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:57,359
Speaker 2: Don't know what what what what does that have to

1785
01:33:57,439 --> 01:33:58,239
do with anything?

1786
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:01,439
Speaker 3: No idea that point was brought up.

1787
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:05,680
Speaker 1: Man, I don't feel like he was God said he

1788
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:08,399
was gonna fuck all your women and guess what he.

1789
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:12,600
Speaker 2: Didn't look back what it exists?

1790
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:16,520
Speaker 3: Back to what Ge was was asking if he says

1791
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:20,119
to you just same words, the exact same sentence and

1792
01:34:20,239 --> 01:34:23,359
thought that you just said to us, The only thing

1793
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:27,279
that he changes is God to a invisible pink unicorn.

1794
01:34:27,439 --> 01:34:29,760
I mean, like, what do you say to that? Man, Like,

1795
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:31,199
what's your response?

1796
01:34:31,359 --> 01:34:34,319
Speaker 9: You can't say it's an invisible pink unicorn if we

1797
01:34:34,399 --> 01:34:37,319
haven't seen the pink unicorn. I'm saying it's an invisible

1798
01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:39,920
not pink unicorn. And I mean maybe it is a

1799
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:42,079
pink unicorn, but right, and what and.

1800
01:34:42,199 --> 01:34:45,680
Speaker 1: You're just claiming another yet invisible fucking thing that you

1801
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:49,520
cannot actually refute me and saying that it's an invisible

1802
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:53,520
pink unicorn. You don't know these these egg gore I

1803
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,760
while they're sitting there fucking each other. Could really just

1804
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:58,840
be pink unicorns fucking each other?

1805
01:34:59,000 --> 01:34:59,479
Speaker 2: Could they not?

1806
01:35:00,079 --> 01:35:02,479
Speaker 9: I mean, they're not pink because they're visible, right.

1807
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:05,079
Speaker 6: So what is what is a heng on?

1808
01:35:05,359 --> 01:35:08,920
Speaker 3: Thank God, Reverend. Look, look, this is not the first

1809
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:13,479
time this has happened today. Okay, but twice today a

1810
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:17,119
caller was asked a question and their response focused on

1811
01:35:17,199 --> 01:35:21,039
the thing that was not at all important in the question. Okay,

1812
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:26,319
the fucking the fucking color of the unicorns, Okay, is

1813
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:29,520
not the thing that John is talking about. That is

1814
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:32,800
not what matters here. Like fuck a man, I don't

1815
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:36,000
give a shit what color they are. The point the

1816
01:35:36,279 --> 01:35:39,920
reason that he brought that up is all of us

1817
01:35:40,199 --> 01:35:44,199
are in the same boat when it comes to ad

1818
01:35:44,279 --> 01:35:48,159
hoc assertions. We can pull them out of our asses

1819
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:53,079
for eternity, but there is nothing behind any one of

1820
01:35:53,159 --> 01:35:55,720
them to back them up. And it is just as

1821
01:35:55,840 --> 01:36:00,000
simple as us going, yeah that that doesn't have any

1822
01:36:00,119 --> 01:36:02,359
good reason for me to believe that, And it's done,

1823
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:05,800
it's over. If that is all that is backing up

1824
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:10,560
your belief, please, Reverend, please get get a better theology,

1825
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:11,960
get more evidence.

1826
01:36:12,359 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 9: What have you heard of an oracle before? Have you

1827
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:15,199
heard of an oracle?

1828
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:15,840
Speaker 6: Yes?

1829
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:17,279
Speaker 2: I have, Yes, I have.

1830
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:20,199
Speaker 9: An oracle is not a person. An oracle is when

1831
01:36:20,359 --> 01:36:23,279
eggregory comes together with groups of people and create a

1832
01:36:23,359 --> 01:36:25,960
larger entity called an oracle. Now right, it's no longer

1833
01:36:26,079 --> 01:36:26,880
just one eggregory.

1834
01:36:27,039 --> 01:36:33,640
Speaker 3: Why why do you why do you accept that that

1835
01:36:34,039 --> 01:36:37,319
is the case. When I think about an oracle, what

1836
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:43,680
I think is that an individual incorrectly attributes certain experiences

1837
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:48,079
in their lives to them having the ability to channel

1838
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:52,560
the divine or transcendence or spirits or whatever. I think

1839
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:55,399
those people are wrong, and I believe I can demonstrate

1840
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:59,159
that to you. You what about think? Hang on, hang

1841
01:36:59,239 --> 01:37:00,800
on just a second. I just want to lay out

1842
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:02,960
my position. Now you know where I'm at, and I

1843
01:37:03,079 --> 01:37:06,800
am offering you the chance for me to demonstrate that

1844
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:09,840
position to you. But what I'd really love, since you

1845
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:12,920
brought it up first, is if you would go first,

1846
01:37:13,039 --> 01:37:17,600
Rev and tell me why you believe that an oracle

1847
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:21,159
is a person a vessel that a bunch of Egrigori

1848
01:37:21,359 --> 01:37:24,560
came together and is now working through them. Why do

1849
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:26,199
you think that? What's the reasoning?

1850
01:37:26,359 --> 01:37:27,239
Speaker 9: That's not what I said.

1851
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:30,239
Speaker 3: An oracle more like help me out a board.

1852
01:37:30,359 --> 01:37:32,119
Speaker 9: An oracle is like a chessboard or a Wigi board

1853
01:37:32,119 --> 01:37:34,239
where there are several people and it all comes together

1854
01:37:34,359 --> 01:37:35,600
to create an answer.

1855
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:37,720
Speaker 3: Right, Why do you think that?

1856
01:37:38,039 --> 01:37:40,960
Speaker 9: Because that's how human society and everything works. I mean,

1857
01:37:41,079 --> 01:37:43,560
that's how civilization's only been around for like six thousand years.

1858
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:44,239
It's because of this.

1859
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:48,960
Speaker 3: If Ge said to you, he believes that actually what's

1860
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:52,159
going on is pink unicorns are fucking each other when

1861
01:37:52,199 --> 01:37:55,039
people are playing with ouiji boards, and their jizz is

1862
01:37:55,079 --> 01:37:57,760
what causes their magic. Jizz is what causes the thing

1863
01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:00,920
to move. And then he responded when you said, hey,

1864
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:01,560
why do you think that?

1865
01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:01,960
Speaker 6: John?

1866
01:38:02,319 --> 01:38:05,039
Speaker 3: And he responded with because that's just the way the

1867
01:38:05,119 --> 01:38:08,680
world works. On a scale of not at all to fuck?

1868
01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:09,000
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1869
01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:12,520
Speaker 3: How satisfied are you with that answer? Man? Like, there's

1870
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:14,000
no way, It's very high.

1871
01:38:14,439 --> 01:38:17,479
Speaker 9: But that's that's like me saying like uh, like uh,

1872
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:19,720
you know, I mean like atheists they can go talk

1873
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:21,399
about what they don't believe in, and how are how

1874
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:22,920
are you supposed to have a discussing with each other

1875
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:24,800
about religion, if you all just say that you don't

1876
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:25,159
believe in.

1877
01:38:25,159 --> 01:38:26,399
Speaker 3: Things like you know what I mean, I don't think

1878
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:29,239
I don't think that that is a response to anything

1879
01:38:29,319 --> 01:38:32,560
that I have said today at all, Rev, not even

1880
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:35,800
with other fucking callers. Which I'm not expecting you to

1881
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:38,199
watch the whole show, but I am expecting you to

1882
01:38:38,399 --> 01:38:41,960
follow along with the discussion that you're trying to have.

1883
01:38:42,640 --> 01:38:45,159
So I'm going to back up just a second, Hang on,

1884
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:46,079
just a second.

1885
01:38:46,159 --> 01:38:46,399
Speaker 6: Rev.

1886
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 3: You've been doing great this whole time, so we're going

1887
01:38:49,039 --> 01:38:51,319
to go back just a second, Okay, And I'm going

1888
01:38:51,399 --> 01:38:54,560
to say it again, which is if Ge says to

1889
01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:57,640
you the reason that Ouiji boards work, the reason that

1890
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:01,640
magic crystals or whatever it is, the reason that those

1891
01:39:01,720 --> 01:39:05,760
things work is because of invisible unicorns fucking each other,

1892
01:39:06,079 --> 01:39:07,920
and then you say, hey, why do you believe that?

1893
01:39:08,159 --> 01:39:10,760
And he says, Ah, that's just the way the world is,

1894
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:13,840
man like, that's how that's what brought all of civilization

1895
01:39:14,079 --> 01:39:17,199
to this point in time. Are you satisfied with that answer?

1896
01:39:17,279 --> 01:39:21,560
Do you feel like Ge has a robust reason for his.

1897
01:39:22,039 --> 01:39:24,319
Speaker 9: Belief if he if he's going to say, like the

1898
01:39:24,439 --> 01:39:28,039
Titan Phoebee was an invisible pink unicorn. Maybe maybe he

1899
01:39:28,159 --> 01:39:30,479
could say that, but he's just like, now he's giving

1900
01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:34,000
it a physical limitation and he's giving it a color, right,

1901
01:39:34,159 --> 01:39:36,359
So like, and how how is this invisible thing giving

1902
01:39:36,359 --> 01:39:39,319
a physical limitation to the color? We supposed to be invisible,

1903
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:40,359
supposed to color.

1904
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 3: The color is definitively not the most important part of

1905
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:49,439
that discussion. I believe, I believe rather I'm talking about

1906
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:51,880
that you have Hold on just a second, Hang on

1907
01:39:52,039 --> 01:39:53,680
just a second, because I'm going to rudely drop you

1908
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:56,640
right after this. I believe you have better reasons. I

1909
01:39:56,800 --> 01:39:59,399
believe you have thought about this more than what you

1910
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:03,119
have present today. I really do. I think that you

1911
01:40:03,399 --> 01:40:06,520
have in your head, whether it is physical or not,

1912
01:40:07,079 --> 01:40:10,800
you have thoughts and memories and arguments that you can bring,

1913
01:40:11,039 --> 01:40:13,319
and I think you can do a better job. And

1914
01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:15,600
I would love to hear from you in the future,

1915
01:40:15,720 --> 01:40:19,479
because I think the arguments you've brought today are really unsatisfying,

1916
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:21,399
and I don't think you'd be satisfied with them. That's

1917
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:23,720
the whole point. So I am rudely dropping you. I'm

1918
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:28,119
very sorry. I am just kind of a dick. But yeah, man, fuck,

1919
01:40:29,039 --> 01:40:31,359
that's just the way the world works. It's like, what

1920
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:32,199
that is?

1921
01:40:32,359 --> 01:40:32,399
Speaker 8: Not?

1922
01:40:33,119 --> 01:40:36,079
Speaker 3: Oh my god? Like old fairies are stealing my teeth

1923
01:40:36,119 --> 01:40:37,960
and giving me quarters? Like why do you think that

1924
01:40:38,159 --> 01:40:39,840
I'm just how society formed?

1925
01:40:40,359 --> 01:40:40,560
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1926
01:40:43,199 --> 01:40:45,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I still I don't understand why people are

1927
01:40:46,399 --> 01:40:50,680
convinced by just whatever ad hoc statement seems to I

1928
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:52,039
guess maybe appeal to them.

1929
01:40:53,079 --> 01:40:53,439
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1930
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:56,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I don't either. I don't either. But

1931
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,840
here's here. I do have this thought. We have this

1932
01:41:00,159 --> 01:41:05,680
wonderful backup post we have with us today. Jamie the

1933
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:10,560
Blind Blimey himself. I'm wondering, Uh, hey, Jamie you uh

1934
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:12,279
do you want to take a call with us?

1935
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 12: Yeah? Yeah, I'm happy to do that.

1936
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,359
Speaker 3: Let's do it. We are going to go out to Mississippi.

1937
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:20,960
We are going to talk with Hannah. She her wants

1938
01:41:21,039 --> 01:41:24,479
to talk about materialism and physicalism. Well, Hannah, we have

1939
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:28,039
been steeped in that sauce today. So you've got three

1940
01:41:28,079 --> 01:41:30,359
of us. We're going to try not to gang up

1941
01:41:30,399 --> 01:41:33,439
on you too much. But it's sr Ge and the

1942
01:41:33,479 --> 01:41:35,279
Blind Limey. What you got for us, Hannah?

1943
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:38,199
Speaker 11: So I would like to continue what I've touched about previously,

1944
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:42,760
But why I think materialism and physicalism are not logical

1945
01:41:42,800 --> 01:41:46,119
ways to go about the ones you could say is

1946
01:41:46,319 --> 01:41:51,159
either if theismology or methodologist studying existence, or or you

1947
01:41:51,199 --> 01:41:53,960
could say metaphysics, like I don't believe materialism or physicalism

1948
01:41:54,159 --> 01:41:58,319
metaphysically is kinnibal Wiser. But to minus Sending, you said

1949
01:41:58,319 --> 01:41:59,960
in the past that you are more of a methodical

1950
01:42:00,079 --> 01:42:03,800
logical or you could also say astemological materialist and a

1951
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:06,319
ontological or metaphysical materialist.

1952
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:08,880
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I think that's I think that's pretty fair,

1953
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:12,439
Jamie or Ge. If you guys feel differently, please jump

1954
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:13,239
in at any point.

1955
01:42:13,359 --> 01:42:18,319
Speaker 12: So, now I got as a materialist empiricist, I'm not

1956
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:22,359
too up to speed on all of the philosophy words

1957
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:26,079
I've heard them before. I might need you to explain

1958
01:42:26,159 --> 01:42:30,960
them to me. Hannah, Please do assume that I don't

1959
01:42:31,079 --> 01:42:34,600
know what you're talking about unless I indicate otherwise.

1960
01:42:34,960 --> 01:42:37,359
Speaker 3: Speak to us all like we're five. Honestly, it's it's

1961
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:39,920
it's a good way. It's a good way to talk

1962
01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:43,560
to fit. Uh. Yeah, please go ahead, tell us tell

1963
01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:47,520
us your thoughts. Why why why not materialism or physicalism

1964
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:49,600
what are those having that are problematic?

1965
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 11: Well, just just just before I did that, could I

1966
01:42:52,039 --> 01:42:55,720
also ask just from gelf identifies as a methodological as

1967
01:42:55,760 --> 01:42:59,840
a post to methodological materialist, a methodological as a post metaphysical.

1968
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:05,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would definitely say I'm a methodological naturalist.

1969
01:43:05,359 --> 01:43:05,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1970
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:08,399
Speaker 3: So just real quick, Hanna, I'll just help anybody in

1971
01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:11,359
the audience that isn't totally up to speed. Just basically,

1972
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:13,920
what all three of us are saying is we are

1973
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:18,680
not categorically ruling out immaterial or non physical things. But

1974
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:21,960
what we are saying is currently, when it comes to

1975
01:43:22,159 --> 01:43:25,520
investigating the things around us, when it comes to generally

1976
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:29,039
operating from day to day, we are going under the

1977
01:43:29,119 --> 01:43:32,079
assumption that the answer is not going to be any

1978
01:43:32,119 --> 01:43:34,199
one of those things. We haven't We haven't gotten there

1979
01:43:34,399 --> 01:43:36,640
just yet. But I think I think that's a decent

1980
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:39,079
I'm sure somebody's gonna yell at me about that, though, Hannah,

1981
01:43:39,119 --> 01:43:41,239
So what do you think? Where are we going?

1982
01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:44,680
Speaker 11: So there's several problems I think. So the first is

1983
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:46,800
I would like the first to be the problem with

1984
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:51,439
trying to define a rigid, rigid rigid methodology. And the

1985
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:54,960
second thing I think is problems from cognitive science against

1986
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:57,520
materialism and physicalism. I think I should first start with

1987
01:43:57,600 --> 01:43:59,359
the epistemological one, because we talked a lot about the

1988
01:43:59,359 --> 01:44:01,880
cognitive science part last time, and I would like to

1989
01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:04,920
get more to mythological logical problems. So one of the

1990
01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:07,960
problems I have with materialism and physicalism, especially when I

1991
01:44:08,079 --> 01:44:11,439
was talking about using it in scientific theories, is that,

1992
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:14,640
so are you familiar with Sir Carl Popper and his

1993
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:18,039
theory of falsification as a demarcation between science and non science.

1994
01:44:18,399 --> 01:44:21,960
Speaker 12: No, the only popular I read was the three world's theorem,

1995
01:44:22,039 --> 01:44:25,000
and that was for a cognitive science essay I did

1996
01:44:25,039 --> 01:44:27,840
in universities. I've almost forgotten all of that. And also

1997
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:29,359
I don't only get on the board with that because

1998
01:44:29,399 --> 01:44:32,640
the third world, the immaterial world, I've never seen any

1999
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,800
evidence for it. So while I used it as as

2000
01:44:36,199 --> 01:44:38,479
the backbone of an essay I wrote once, I'm not

2001
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:41,159
entirely certain that I would agree with Popper that there's

2002
01:44:41,199 --> 01:44:44,239
a third immaterial world. But maybe I'm getting off track.

2003
01:44:44,079 --> 01:44:48,520
Speaker 11: Here, so Popper's I'm not necessarily arguing ing Popper's point

2004
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,920
about the three world the more I arguing his methodological point,

2005
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:54,279
because I said like, we're going to make this distinction

2006
01:44:54,439 --> 01:44:59,239
between the metological and then the arguments from the metaphysical methodological.

2007
01:44:59,399 --> 01:45:03,279
Problem with materialism physicalism is that Popper had argued, and

2008
01:45:03,319 --> 01:45:06,039
I think this makes sense because of the problem of induction,

2009
01:45:06,119 --> 01:45:08,439
pointed out by people like David Hume, is that you

2010
01:45:08,520 --> 01:45:11,079
can never be certain that a scientific theory is true.

2011
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:14,560
But what you can say is that we can falsify assertions.

2012
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:19,039
And the problem with methodological materialism methological physicalism, especially if

2013
01:45:19,079 --> 01:45:22,800
it's used in scientific theories, is that I don't believe

2014
01:45:22,800 --> 01:45:26,359
it can become the scientific using Popper's criteria falsifiability because

2015
01:45:26,359 --> 01:45:29,199
I don't know what I can't even conceive of something

2016
01:45:29,239 --> 01:45:32,840
that would falsify materialism or physicalism and a scientific Ah.

2017
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:36,760
Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead, go ahead, John, Yeah, Well, I was

2018
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:39,439
just gonna ask, like, what are you offering some kind

2019
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:42,760
of competing thing, because like, here's how I view science

2020
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:48,399
and empiricism and methodological naturalism. It's an effort to try

2021
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:54,359
and figure out or build a worldview or a view

2022
01:45:54,399 --> 01:45:58,560
of reality that is most closely aligned to the actual

2023
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:03,720
reality that exists. And so this scientific effort constantly needs

2024
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:06,760
to update itself because the fact is that we are

2025
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:10,319
human beings where the world, our reality is filtered through

2026
01:46:11,279 --> 01:46:14,520
our senses and how we view things. And so with

2027
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:17,079
us being so limited in that way, we have to

2028
01:46:17,199 --> 01:46:20,880
constantly update and change our view of reality.

2029
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,920
Speaker 2: So are you offering a better way to figure things out?

2030
01:46:25,720 --> 01:46:29,239
Speaker 11: Well, so I'm not necessarily saying that. So, first of all,

2031
01:46:29,239 --> 01:46:31,760
I would like to say, in response to medicine metological

2032
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:35,720
naturalism when I'm criticizing them as metological materialism, metological physicalism,

2033
01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:39,680
not naturalism and naturalism and physicalism and materialism aren't.

2034
01:46:39,439 --> 01:46:40,119
Speaker 6: The same thing, right.

2035
01:46:40,319 --> 01:46:43,159
Speaker 11: All naturalism is that everything operates according to clause of nature,

2036
01:46:43,199 --> 01:46:46,319
and are naturalists who pose the existence of non material

2037
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:48,520
entities which are natural here. But what I'm trying to

2038
01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:52,199
argue is more so that not necessarily that there's a

2039
01:46:52,279 --> 01:46:55,000
better alternative. My argument is that there shouldn't be a

2040
01:46:55,079 --> 01:46:59,600
rigid methodology that science more the empirical method operates under,

2041
01:47:00,319 --> 01:47:03,039
because I don't believe you can ever induce even probability

2042
01:47:03,079 --> 01:47:04,960
of the scientific area. Instead of what we can do

2043
01:47:05,039 --> 01:47:07,439
is we can create models, and those models can involve

2044
01:47:08,159 --> 01:47:09,880
material or immaterial things.

2045
01:47:10,079 --> 01:47:14,039
Speaker 1: But whatever ythes okay, okay, hold on, So Hannah, Listen.

2046
01:47:14,399 --> 01:47:16,479
The thing that I'm trying to get to is that

2047
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:21,359
the scientific method is our best way to formulate a

2048
01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:26,479
view of reality that best comports with the actual reality

2049
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:27,159
that exists.

2050
01:47:27,319 --> 01:47:29,199
Speaker 2: It's the best way that we found to.

2051
01:47:29,319 --> 01:47:33,399
Speaker 1: Inform ourselves about what is real and what is not real,

2052
01:47:33,520 --> 01:47:38,520
what is fabricated? What if not the scientific method and

2053
01:47:39,079 --> 01:47:45,439
the achievements of science, but scientific reasoning, what is the

2054
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:49,720
other way that we are to form an accurate view

2055
01:47:49,760 --> 01:47:52,960
of reality? Like what I guess I'm just not understanding,

2056
01:47:53,079 --> 01:47:56,560
Like I get it. The scientific method is is, you know,

2057
01:47:56,720 --> 01:48:00,479
can be limited. It's definitely limited to reality. You know,

2058
01:48:02,359 --> 01:48:05,720
silly of scientists to only be concerned was real shit.

2059
01:48:06,319 --> 01:48:10,960
But if you have a better way of determining what's

2060
01:48:11,119 --> 01:48:15,000
actually real, I'm sure everybody in this call would love

2061
01:48:15,119 --> 01:48:20,159
to know that. And for all the flaws that science

2062
01:48:20,319 --> 01:48:24,359
can have, does have, or possibly has, what's the better

2063
01:48:24,399 --> 01:48:24,880
way to do it?

2064
01:48:25,079 --> 01:48:25,279
Speaker 8: Well?

2065
01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:29,319
Speaker 11: So, perhaps Unsinning, you're assuming that there is a better way,

2066
01:48:29,439 --> 01:48:32,039
And what I'm arguing here is there is no quote

2067
01:48:32,079 --> 01:48:34,880
unquote better way. What I'm arguing is there are different

2068
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:39,640
meth methodologies for how to propose hypothesis. None of them

2069
01:48:39,680 --> 01:48:42,359
will comport to reality. Well, you can do is you

2070
01:48:42,399 --> 01:48:45,840
can propose a hypothesis and then prove it wrong in

2071
01:48:46,079 --> 01:48:50,239
some limited context, but you can never prove anything about reality.

2072
01:48:50,399 --> 01:48:54,520
Speaker 3: Okay, you're not but you're not saying But you're not saying, Hannah,

2073
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:58,159
that we can't have any understanding of the world around us, right,

2074
01:48:58,279 --> 01:49:01,560
you're not saying that. So we have talked about a

2075
01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:06,479
lot on this platform, on other platforms about the fact that, yeah,

2076
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:09,479
at the center of all of our methodologies, at the

2077
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:13,319
center of all of our understandings of everything, it all

2078
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:15,720
has this gigantic, gaping.

2079
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:15,960
Speaker 13: Hole in it.

2080
01:49:16,199 --> 01:49:19,680
Speaker 3: But we can still build and make progress and actually

2081
01:49:19,920 --> 01:49:24,079
understand things and come to come to reasonably held conclusions.

2082
01:49:24,359 --> 01:49:27,039
You're not saying that all of that venture is just

2083
01:49:27,199 --> 01:49:32,279
completely worthless, no, no, Okay, so it doesn't.

2084
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:32,960
Speaker 6: So hang on.

2085
01:49:33,119 --> 01:49:36,079
Speaker 3: So the the issue that you're bringing up is not

2086
01:49:36,479 --> 01:49:40,880
one that that actually is a problem for this methodology,

2087
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:44,680
because it is the same issue that every single methodology has.

2088
01:49:45,199 --> 01:49:48,520
Everything falls back down to that black hole of nothingness

2089
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:51,960
where we go, well, it's either ad infinitum, it's either

2090
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:56,119
a presupposition, or it's fucking circular. That's it. That is

2091
01:49:56,279 --> 01:49:58,359
the answer at the end of the day, and all

2092
01:49:58,479 --> 01:50:01,920
we can do from there is then start to evaluate

2093
01:50:02,079 --> 01:50:04,600
both of those in the real world. And that's where

2094
01:50:04,640 --> 01:50:06,600
the science of it comes into. And that's what ge

2095
01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:09,000
was getting at. Like if you and I both have

2096
01:50:09,199 --> 01:50:12,720
different ways of building this car, and I get in

2097
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:14,840
my car, started up and drive to the end of

2098
01:50:14,880 --> 01:50:17,920
the fucking block and you never move, Man, I don't

2099
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:21,000
care what's at the whole the center of my you know,

2100
01:50:21,279 --> 01:50:24,399
methodology that's fucked up. We both have it, and apparently

2101
01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:25,760
mine still builds cars.

2102
01:50:26,119 --> 01:50:29,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, And I've got just quick question. If you feel

2103
01:50:29,560 --> 01:50:33,279
so critical of materialism and physicalism, can you give me

2104
01:50:33,359 --> 01:50:37,600
an example of something that is both immaterial and real.

2105
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:41,640
Speaker 11: Well, first of all, we're talking about the methodology and

2106
01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:43,920
where you're asking more of a question of metaphysics. But

2107
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:48,199
I believe as are just misrepresenting what position on the

2108
01:50:48,279 --> 01:50:50,800
scientific method help me out? Which is one I think

2109
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:52,720
was that helped me out.

2110
01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:55,800
Speaker 3: I don't want to misrepresent, so please correct.

2111
01:50:55,560 --> 01:50:58,960
Speaker 11: Me so to be as precise as possible. What I'm

2112
01:50:59,039 --> 01:51:02,239
saying is that is not that there is a truth

2113
01:51:02,359 --> 01:51:05,319
which we can come close to that is corresponds to

2114
01:51:05,319 --> 01:51:07,680
the external reality, because I don't believe you can ever

2115
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:11,239
correspond to the external reality with certainty, with the exception

2116
01:51:11,600 --> 01:51:12,920
of mathematics.

2117
01:51:13,039 --> 01:51:16,119
Speaker 3: Perhaps so, but I don't I don't care about I

2118
01:51:16,159 --> 01:51:19,079
don't care about certainty. I don't care about whether or

2119
01:51:19,119 --> 01:51:22,720
not we know that it corresponds with one certainty. That

2120
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:23,800
is not a problem.

2121
01:51:24,079 --> 01:51:27,760
Speaker 11: Right, finish my position before you'd like continue, because I've

2122
01:51:27,840 --> 01:51:30,399
let you like explain, like your buddle to my point,

2123
01:51:30,479 --> 01:51:31,039
and then like.

2124
01:51:31,279 --> 01:51:33,880
Speaker 3: But ahead, go ahead.

2125
01:51:34,039 --> 01:51:36,439
Speaker 11: But what I believe what we can do is we

2126
01:51:36,560 --> 01:51:41,159
can become We can propose models which don't correspond to

2127
01:51:41,279 --> 01:51:45,960
reality per se, but because they have enough predictive methodology,

2128
01:51:46,359 --> 01:51:49,840
they have enough predictive power. They're not true, but we

2129
01:51:50,079 --> 01:51:53,279
treat them as true in a sense that we'll use

2130
01:51:53,399 --> 01:51:57,720
them in the way we construct technology, we'll use them

2131
01:51:57,840 --> 01:51:59,000
in the.

2132
01:51:59,039 --> 01:51:59,720
Speaker 3: Way we live.

2133
01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 11: And so something like does bit a certain medicine cure

2134
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,560
a certain disease or not? Well, I don't believe you can.

2135
01:52:09,239 --> 01:52:13,680
I agree that induction certain induction is impossible. But what

2136
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:15,880
I believe is you can take that even create a

2137
01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:19,199
hypothesis about how the medicine works and the causal relationships

2138
01:52:19,359 --> 01:52:23,239
that the medicine has to the human biology, and if

2139
01:52:23,439 --> 01:52:26,439
it's not proven wrong and it has enough predictive power

2140
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:29,359
that when people take the medicine a curious disease, we're

2141
01:52:29,399 --> 01:52:32,199
not necessarily posing an absolute causal relationship, but we still

2142
01:52:32,279 --> 01:52:33,159
treat it as true.

2143
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:38,439
Speaker 3: So tentative truth, tentative truth based on scientific data and evidence,

2144
01:52:38,920 --> 01:52:41,079
is where we sit, is what you're saying. If I'm

2145
01:52:41,119 --> 01:52:45,359
following correctly, how is that a pushback in any way,

2146
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:49,520
shape or form on materialism or physicalism? Hannah? Everything I

2147
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:52,880
just sat through and let you explain had nothing to

2148
01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,439
do with what we're talking about. So please help me out.

2149
01:52:56,720 --> 01:53:00,880
Since you so so desperately to let me know that

2150
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:03,199
you had to get this thought out, I want you

2151
01:53:03,359 --> 01:53:05,720
to get your fucking thoughts out, Hannah. I want you

2152
01:53:05,840 --> 01:53:08,800
to clarify. But if you're gonna do that every time,

2153
01:53:09,199 --> 01:53:11,840
I am not gonna let it go because I'm telling

2154
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:15,119
you what you just said had absolutely no bearing on

2155
01:53:15,199 --> 01:53:18,359
the conversation. So connect it back for me. What's the

2156
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:22,079
problem with materialism and physicalism when it comes to holding

2157
01:53:22,199 --> 01:53:23,000
tentative truth?

2158
01:53:23,159 --> 01:53:27,079
Speaker 11: Well, so the problem with materialism physicalism as methodology, And

2159
01:53:27,199 --> 01:53:29,560
first of all, it's not about evidence, I said, It's

2160
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:33,039
about falsification or proving wrong. It's not about giving evidence

2161
01:53:33,119 --> 01:53:36,199
for theory, but creating predictive power, which is not falsified

2162
01:53:36,319 --> 01:53:38,399
when it comes to materism physicalism. The problem I have

2163
01:53:38,479 --> 01:53:42,960
with this methodology is it's not falsifiable, so I can't

2164
01:53:43,000 --> 01:53:46,199
think that I can't conceive of evidence that you could

2165
01:53:46,239 --> 01:53:49,720
present to a metological materialist or metrological basically.

2166
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:51,319
Speaker 3: So this is what I wanted to go back to,

2167
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:53,319
because this is where you got off the track from

2168
01:53:53,359 --> 01:53:55,199
the beginning, and I was trying to help you out

2169
01:53:55,239 --> 01:53:58,479
with this. What you're doing is you're trying to find

2170
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:04,239
scientific evidense for a philosophical problem. You're not going to

2171
01:54:04,600 --> 01:54:08,159
find a You're not going to find a test tube

2172
01:54:08,319 --> 01:54:11,600
or a beaker or any type of methodology that can

2173
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:16,319
be run okay in a physical, tangible scientific, in a

2174
01:54:16,399 --> 01:54:19,479
lab sense, to help you out with the paradoxes like

2175
01:54:19,600 --> 01:54:23,600
the grim reaper paradox or anything, because they are they

2176
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:26,159
are in a separate category. So what you would have

2177
01:54:26,359 --> 01:54:30,760
to do is you would have to use other philosophical justification,

2178
01:54:31,279 --> 01:54:34,399
which we can do, which is why I went through

2179
01:54:34,439 --> 01:54:38,880
the whole time of talking about Munchausen's trilemma again, Hannah,

2180
01:54:39,159 --> 01:54:42,119
because that's the way you play that game. My theory

2181
01:54:42,199 --> 01:54:45,479
has a hole, your theory has a hole. Nobody's fucking perfect.

2182
01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:49,199
But then from there we have to go out into

2183
01:54:49,279 --> 01:54:52,159
the real world and see how it comes back to us.

2184
01:54:52,439 --> 01:54:56,800
And so far we don't have anything from the non materialist.

2185
01:54:57,079 --> 01:55:00,640
We don't have anything from the non physical. It is

2186
01:55:01,000 --> 01:55:04,560
all one hundred percent in our camp and that's where

2187
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:05,119
we need to go.

2188
01:55:05,399 --> 01:55:08,720
Speaker 11: But you made a mistiken point there, and I think

2189
01:55:08,760 --> 01:55:11,960
that's where the misrepresentation of my position comes in about

2190
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:16,119
the methodology and my Christian materialsm physicism and reparting this

2191
01:55:16,279 --> 01:55:18,760
because you're asking, am I trying to provide evidence or

2192
01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:20,600
something that I'm here, I'm saying there is no such

2193
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:22,920
thing as evidence. There is no such thing as something

2194
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:26,399
which you can provide which confirms or verifies a theory.

2195
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:27,520
Speaker 8: There is no evidence.

2196
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:30,800
Speaker 3: There is logical argumentation. That's what I'm saying. You're mixing

2197
01:55:30,880 --> 01:55:33,960
up the categories. You're not understanding, You're not understanding what

2198
01:55:34,079 --> 01:55:36,760
you're looking for. You're digging in the sand and you're

2199
01:55:36,840 --> 01:55:39,079
hoping to find gold, but you have no idea what

2200
01:55:39,199 --> 01:55:41,279
the fuck gold looks like or the properties of it.

2201
01:55:41,720 --> 01:55:45,520
You know what to do when a philosophical argument sounds

2202
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:49,640
kind of wonky, and it's to go and argue the philosophy.

2203
01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:51,720
You're not going to find it. You're not going to

2204
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:55,159
find the evidence in that. You're telling me something that

2205
01:55:55,399 --> 01:55:57,920
is like yeah, man, of course, not like you're walking

2206
01:55:58,000 --> 01:55:59,680
up to me saying like, hey, you just made all

2207
01:55:59,680 --> 01:56:01,279
these us But do you know what you're not gonna

2208
01:56:01,279 --> 01:56:04,479
find in those cupcakes? Chili? You're never gonna find a

2209
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:08,359
nice fucking meaty chili in those Yeah, I know that, bro,

2210
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:11,079
I ain't worried about that. We move on to the

2211
01:56:11,159 --> 01:56:14,039
next thing. We actually try to get some answers on this,

2212
01:56:14,439 --> 01:56:17,520
but I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Please, Jamie, I know you had.

2213
01:56:18,439 --> 01:56:20,319
Speaker 12: The thing that really blew my mind was using the

2214
01:56:20,399 --> 01:56:22,680
example of testing medicines as a as a as a

2215
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:28,640
counterpoint to physical, physical, physical, and material methodology for testing,

2216
01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:33,920
because we absolutely must use a physical we're physical creatures.

2217
01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:35,119
Speaker 2: I'm a human being.

2218
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:39,279
Speaker 12: Like, we test these medicines and we can know whether

2219
01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:44,079
like falsify the theory that this works, if it doesn't

2220
01:56:44,199 --> 01:56:47,600
cure the disease or worse, kill someone, then we can

2221
01:56:47,800 --> 01:56:51,720
pretty definitively say that we have falsified the hypothesis that

2222
01:56:51,800 --> 01:56:55,520
these medicine works like and it's all done through materialism.

2223
01:56:55,640 --> 01:56:58,760
It's not. There's no there's nothing outside the material when

2224
01:56:58,800 --> 01:56:59,960
it comes to medical science.

2225
01:57:00,359 --> 01:57:02,680
Speaker 3: And if you want to argue, if you want to

2226
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:07,920
push back on that methodology, you don't do that by saying, well,

2227
01:57:07,960 --> 01:57:10,079
there's no test you can run to prove it, of

2228
01:57:10,159 --> 01:57:13,760
course not. That's not where the falsification is problematic. The

2229
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:17,840
falsification is problematic in the philosophical sense. It is problematic

2230
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:21,000
because it is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow, the

2231
01:57:21,199 --> 01:57:25,119
logic doesn't work. That's where you have to push back.

2232
01:57:25,439 --> 01:57:27,479
So you're not gonna you're not gonna be able to

2233
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:32,439
push back on materialism or physicalism this way, just like really,

2234
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:35,840
it is not pushing back on dualism to say, yeah,

2235
01:57:35,960 --> 01:57:38,359
well you can't find any evidence for blah blah blah,

2236
01:57:38,600 --> 01:57:42,840
that does not actually disprove dualism, right, because because that's

2237
01:57:43,000 --> 01:57:45,319
just not what you do in that arena. It would

2238
01:57:45,359 --> 01:57:48,000
be like, I'm not gonna give another example. We're already

2239
01:57:48,039 --> 01:57:50,600
over time hand. I'm just gonna drop you real abruptly.

2240
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:53,239
I'm so sorry. I do appreciate you calling. I really

2241
01:57:53,319 --> 01:57:55,840
do enjoy these conversations. I don't get them enough, so

2242
01:57:56,600 --> 01:57:59,439
thank you so much, and I apologize if I was rude.

2243
01:57:59,439 --> 01:58:01,479
I don't know if you're watching or listening or whatever,

2244
01:58:01,600 --> 01:58:04,479
but sometimes I just get a little frustrated when I

2245
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:08,119
am trying to help us make progress and then somebody's like, no, no,

2246
01:58:08,319 --> 01:58:10,479
fuck you, you're taking us off track, and then takes

2247
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:13,239
us off track. So yeah, what do you guys?

2248
01:58:13,720 --> 01:58:16,199
Speaker 12: It did feel kind like Hannah wanted me to falsify

2249
01:58:16,279 --> 01:58:16,680
this mug.

2250
01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:17,079
Speaker 6: How do you?

2251
01:58:17,199 --> 01:58:20,119
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if you could, though, if you

2252
01:58:20,239 --> 01:58:23,880
could just real quick, you know, just no, I'm kidding, Please,

2253
01:58:23,920 --> 01:58:27,960
don't look. I don't know if we I don't know

2254
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:30,720
if we got, you know, many good arguments today. We

2255
01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:34,000
did have, though, a couple of people. They're really focused

2256
01:58:34,039 --> 01:58:37,479
on the wrong pig, like, oh, invisible unicorns can't be pink.

2257
01:58:38,159 --> 01:58:41,239
It's like, oh my god, man, yeah, come on.

2258
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:46,960
Speaker 12: The whole show. You just titled that which cannot be

2259
01:58:47,439 --> 01:58:50,520
can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without thought.

2260
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:56,680
The show and an Orgy oft is the name of

2261
01:58:56,920 --> 01:58:59,399
my death Core, a flop of Seagulls cover band.

2262
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:03,000
Speaker 3: I love that orgy of Poltergeis. I think that is

2263
01:59:03,319 --> 01:59:06,920
an absolutely awesome, awesome thing that we learned about today.

2264
01:59:07,880 --> 01:59:10,600
If you out there in your in your life ever

2265
01:59:11,479 --> 01:59:14,479
are feeling sad or bummed out, just remember that all

2266
01:59:14,560 --> 01:59:19,159
around you, Eggregor I are fucking constantly, and it might

2267
01:59:19,239 --> 01:59:22,600
be invisible pink unicorns as well. There's no way, there

2268
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:24,720
is no way that I don't get yelled at at

2269
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:28,079
the end of this. Hey, gee, it's good hanging out

2270
01:59:28,119 --> 01:59:31,520
with you, man. We had a fun time as I

2271
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:33,079
don't know if you have any thoughts you want to

2272
01:59:33,119 --> 01:59:35,600
wrap everybody up with or you.

2273
01:59:35,640 --> 01:59:39,600
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, I mean, I think that today's callers were

2274
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,039
kind of interesting. I wish that we got more direct

2275
01:59:42,079 --> 01:59:45,439
answers to things. And I'm I'm really sad that you

2276
01:59:45,560 --> 01:59:49,800
know that he couldn't falsify my pink unicorn orgy, like

2277
01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:54,520
just you know, thinking about you know, three pink unicorns

2278
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:58,079
doing a spitfire, you know sort of thing, roast spit

2279
01:59:58,199 --> 01:59:58,800
roast on.

2280
01:59:59,000 --> 02:00:01,359
Speaker 2: One in the middle. I mean, that's I mean that

2281
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:03,159
that would make my day right there.

2282
02:00:03,359 --> 02:00:05,600
Speaker 3: I think it's the only way unicorns have sex.

2283
02:00:07,880 --> 02:00:09,920
Speaker 12: Fire is what happens when you mix up the loop

2284
02:00:10,039 --> 02:00:11,520
with the deep Europe.

2285
02:00:11,640 --> 02:00:18,239
Speaker 13: Yes, yes, yes, yes, Oh my god, Well Jamie, thank

2286
02:00:18,279 --> 02:00:20,640
you so much for jumping in on that last call

2287
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:23,279
with us and hanging out the whole time.

2288
02:00:23,319 --> 02:00:26,720
Speaker 3: We always appreciate you, man, I love I am. I'm

2289
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:28,399
going to try to be down there for the bat Cruise.

2290
02:00:28,399 --> 02:00:31,279
I'm gonna try to be down there August sixteenth of

2291
02:00:31,439 --> 02:00:34,800
this year, which is exactly sixty nine days away. Okay,

2292
02:00:36,039 --> 02:00:39,520
and you know, before the crew cuts me off or anything.

2293
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:43,880
As always, I'm just reminding you Sunday's four thirty pm Central.

2294
02:00:43,960 --> 02:00:46,840
But I really do think we should have like condoms

2295
02:00:46,960 --> 02:00:49,479
or sex toys or something. I really think at this

2296
02:00:49,640 --> 02:00:52,119
point like we could. We can do a lot with them.

2297
02:00:52,279 --> 02:00:58,319
You know, I don't know what the crew thinks about, right, Yeah,

2298
02:00:58,359 --> 02:01:02,119
you're right, christ On a cracker sr.

2299
02:01:02,359 --> 02:01:03,840
Speaker 2: What the hell are you thinking?

2300
02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:10,359
Speaker 3: Come on those magical chips kidding?

2301
02:01:10,560 --> 02:01:14,279
Speaker 9: Is that what comes?

2302
02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:21,079
Speaker 3: I mean, I thought it was funny. I mean it's

2303
02:01:21,159 --> 02:01:21,840
good marketing.

2304
02:01:22,399 --> 02:01:25,319
Speaker 2: I have read here, you know that, right right.

2305
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 9: Creditors were lived.

2306
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,359
Speaker 11: Some of them.

2307
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:42,039
Speaker 3: Watch Talking Than Live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit

2308
02:01:42,119 --> 02:01:45,000
tiny dot c C slash y T t H and

2309
02:01:45,159 --> 02:01:47,560
call into the show at five one two nine nine

2310
02:01:47,640 --> 02:01:50,119
one nine two four two, or connect to the show

2311
02:01:50,199 --> 02:01:53,399
online at tiny dot c c slash call th H