WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.240 Oh hey, it's your forgotten half can of lacroix. That's 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:07.280 just cold, just fizzy enough to keep drinking it and 3 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:09.480 not throw it away. Ali Ward back with a very 4 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:13.400 very weird, odd episode of Ologies. If this is not 5 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.000 your first Ologies rodeo, you know that each episode I 6 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:20.239 usually talk to one ologist, but for some reason, I 7 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:22.320 don't know, man Bison just threw us for a very 8 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:26.039 rare loop. So this episode is kind of more like 9 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:30.559 a buffalo party. Four times the usual number of interviewees. Yes, 10 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:33.200 that's right, four times. So if you were actually listening 11 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:35.880 to this, it means that this episode did not kill me, 12 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:38.479 and I am thankful for that. So other things I'm 13 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.679 thankful for every week. Of course, are y'all everyone on 14 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:45.039 Patreon dot com slash Ologies for supporting the show, everyone 15 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:48.560 in Ologies Merch from ologiesmerch dot com, and all the 16 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:51.560 folks who tweet are tell a friend and are subscribed 17 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:53.520 and rate the show, and of course review because you 18 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:56.119 know I creep them every week and as proof I 19 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.439 pick a fresh one such as this week. CMM says 20 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:03.799 I'll Jesus charming, informative, hilarious, and consistently good. This podcast 21 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.920 highlights the joy that comes from being curious with nothing 22 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:09.840 dubbed too boring, because nothing is if you think about 23 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.599 it closely enough. Five stars, Sally. I've actually shed at 24 00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:15.799 least two tears reading out into that cop but really 25 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:18.439 got me this time. Also, Hanna Christopher, thanks for your review. 26 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:21.760 I hope that your Tinder match who recommended this is 27 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:24.719 a good one. Good luck out there. Okay. Bisonology. So 28 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:29.040 bison it's Baltic or Slavic origin. It comes from the 29 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:33.400 word wesund, which means the stinking animal because of its 30 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:37.920 musk while rudding, and the word bison is distantly related 31 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:40.640 to the word weasel, which is also stinky. So weasel 32 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:44.879 and bison. One is hulking billowing steam into the cold air, 33 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:49.400 and the other is a sock with a face etymology. Okay, 34 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:52.439 So I had every intention of just following my usual 35 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:57.359 very comfy broken in denim ologies format one ologist, but 36 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.879 this episode was just like a pair of genes that 37 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:04.560 just kept growing more pockets. And I first reached out 38 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.680 to this well known archaeologist who traces the history of 39 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.560 bison across like tens of thousands of years in North America. 40 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.280 But before our meetup at a Hampton n naturally in Utah. 41 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:18.159 He was like, hey, can I bring a plus one? 42 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.520 He actually wrote about a colleague via email beforehand and said, 43 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:23.719 I thought having us both in the interview might be 44 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.159 a bit more compelling, since we're both working with bison 45 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:28.919 but on different ends of the Holocene, mine being the 46 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:32.439 pre contact record and dance research on the present population. 47 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:34.719 We've been trying to find the time and our schedules 48 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:37.560 to work together and discuss it over beer and coffee 49 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:40.280 not mixed. So this may do it. So I said, yeah, 50 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.120 bring them along, let's shoot some bison shit. So we 51 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:45.319 met up. We had a good chat, but I also 52 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.439 found myself wanting the voice of someone with an indigenous 53 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:52.520 perspective and also perhaps someone who works day to day 54 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.360 with bison. And I'm like, I'm going to need a 55 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:57.719 party bus to fit all the folks I wanted to 56 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.560 talk buffalo with. But luckily, my wonder cousin raises bison 57 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:05.199 in the snowy vistas of Browning in northern Montana, and 58 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.199 his amazing life is of course also a bison rancher 59 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:10.759 and a member of the Blackfeet tribe. And so this 60 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:12.960 past Sunday afternoon, I call him up, got him on 61 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.039 the horn, and they got on speaker, and they let 62 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:17.479 me ask him all kinds of buffalo questions, including if 63 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:20.879 it's okay to hug one. So rather than one singular 64 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.639 person's long thread becoming kind of like a crow shaped blanket, 65 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:28.520 this episode is just a rare ologies quilt of sorts 66 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:32.080 all about the world of bison or buffalo. I don't know. 67 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:34.199 We got to figure out the difference. Okay, So you're 68 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:36.319 going to hear from Ken Cannon, who is a New 69 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.080 Jersey born and now Utah based research professor of anthropology 70 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:43.639 at Utah State University who studies ancient bison and gives 71 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:47.360 talks like rolling Thunder ten thousand years of bison in 72 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.520 the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. And he has short cropped hair, 73 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:55.159 rosy cheeks, and as salt and pepper goateee. He looks 74 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.960 like he could have been a rugby player and another life. 75 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.120 So that's Ken, and he brought along Utah State University 76 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:06.520 ecologist Dan McNulty, who spent years in Yellowstone studying animal behavior. 77 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:09.120 And he has sandy blonde hair. He's a little more 78 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:12.719 wiry than Ken, and I cannot explain why, but Dan 79 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.199 looks like a Ken, and Ken looks like a Dan, 80 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.959 and that screwed me up editing this entire episode. But yes, 81 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.920 Dan studies the more modern era of bison. Lyla Evans 82 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:25.720 is my beloved cousin in law, and she served in 83 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.839 the Montana House of Representatives, and I always just picture 84 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.680 her in a business blazer, even though she's probably more 85 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:35.120 likely like bundled than fleece, because it's January in Montana 86 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:38.759 right now. And her longtime husband is my cousin, Boyd Evans, 87 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.199 who's tall and gangly and wrangler jeans. He has a 88 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:45.560 handlebar mustache and a rain stained cowboy hat and a 89 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.879 great laugh. So I told you this is a weird 90 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.480 and wonderful episode and a break from the usual format. 91 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:53.120 And if you hear it and you're like, I don't 92 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.399 like that it's for people instead of one, don't worry. 93 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.199 Calm down. This is a rare exception. If I did 94 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.480 one of these every week, I would never se and 95 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.199 I would be so tired I would just move to 96 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:05.000 another country and have a coconut stand. So I just 97 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:08.360 made this one a bison Bonanza because I wanted to 98 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.319 do the animal and the community and the topic justice. 99 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.920 So hop on, hang tight and learn how big a 100 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.920 bison is, what their fur feels like, how many there 101 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.480 used to be, how many there are now, how do 102 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.680 they do a head count, and what that lumpy humpus for, 103 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:28.800 what a bison's favorite treat is, and what noises they make, 104 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:32.519 and the difference between raising cows and bison, and how 105 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:36.759 their very existence and survival has been politicized and continues 106 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:39.279 to be. And also maybe the worst sentence in the 107 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:43.480 English language as we talk to academics and hands on ranchers, 108 00:05:43.720 --> 00:06:07.680 all four of whom, in their own way are professional bisonologists. Okay, 109 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:09.879 let's get right into it. So the first person I 110 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.079 had approached was the one I interviewed, doctor Ken Canon. 111 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:15.560 And you're a bisonologist. 112 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:18.040 Uh, that's part of my jobs. 113 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.040 Yes, this is this news to you that you're a bisonologist. 114 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.600 Yes, it is very much So. I heard that term before. 115 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.879 Would you ever use that term like in a cocktail party, like, Hi. 116 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.600 I'm a buson know news, I think so? Yeah, yeah, 117 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:30.079 I think so. 118 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:34.240 Well you're welcome, yeah, thank you, And so how long 119 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.279 have you been studying bison? 120 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:39.680 Well, I first got interested in a bison when I 121 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:42.560 started working for National Park Service in nineteen eighty seven 122 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.800 when I was just a little kid. 123 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:45.199 And. 124 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:48.759 I got interested in it because we were working at 125 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.319 Grant Teeta National Park and there was an archaeological site 126 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.680 there that referred to itself as a as a bison 127 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.639 kill site, a bison jump site. It was interpreted a 128 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.240 numerous different ways, and at the time, there were that 129 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:04.160 many bison in Grant Teeton National Park PS. 130 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:07.480 Grand Teton is in Wyoming, And if you're like, I'm 131 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:10.079 in New Zealand, I have no idea where your parks are. 132 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.720 Isn't Yellowstone in Wyoming? The answer is yes, and I'm sorry. 133 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:19.560 So both are gorgeous, mountainous, grassy places in Wyoming. They're 134 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.959 just a few miles away from each other, but they 135 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:24.600 have separate entrance fees unless you get like one big 136 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:29.160 pass that covers both. So essentially Yellowstone is Disneyland and 137 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.800 Grand Teton is California Adventure. Okay, Anyway, in the late 138 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:38.000 nineteen eighties when Ken started, there were not many bison. 139 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:41.399 There, and the previous archaeologists that work there always minimize 140 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.399 the presence of bison in there, and so I just 141 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.560 started looking at the literature and the more I looked 142 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:51.120 at the literature, every time there were fallen remains bones 143 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:54.879 preserved at archaeological sites, nine out of ten times there 144 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:56.600 were bison bones. And it's like, well, how can you 145 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.759 minimize bison and the archaeological record when all the bones 146 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:03.879 that you're finding are bison bones. So that just got 147 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.240 me going, and I moved up and started working in 148 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:10.959 Yellowstone National Park and got more interesting in bison and 149 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:14.399 you know this wonderful mammal that's that was an incredible 150 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:17.839 part of our ecosystem, shaped a large part of North 151 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.959 American ecosystem, and why we don't know a lot about it. 152 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.000 Most of what we know about it is small herds, 153 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:27.639 anecdotal historical records. So I really wanted to try and 154 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.480 understand at least the Yellowstone bison a little bit more detail. 155 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:34.279 So how old were those kill sites and what exactly 156 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:34.480 is it? 157 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.679 Keil site so kill site. It can vary in a 158 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.000 lot of different ways. The traditional ones that we always 159 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.240 think of for great planes are running bison over a cliff, 160 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.360 hundreds of bison over a cliff, and then dispatching them 161 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:49.440 at the bottom of the cliff. 162 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.320 This is a kind of a stupid question. But when 163 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.440 you say at kill site, like let's say they were 164 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.600 who over a cliff? Is that for to then use 165 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:02.919 that meat and or was that like a hunting technique? 166 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.159 Yes, it was a hunting technique. Yeah, so that was 167 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.200 the best, the easiest, I guess, and most economically efficient 168 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.159 way of getting a lot of bison to get you 169 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:14.399 into the winter. So typically they're they're in the fall 170 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:19.759 at these these events happen, bisoner are coming into the 171 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:21.840 to the fall in the winter, so they're really fat 172 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:25.799 and fat's good. Not like today. The fat was good 173 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.639 back then everybody all hunter gathers. Everybody wanted fat. So 174 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:34.360 you hunted bison in the fall, they're at their prime nutritionally, 175 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:38.120 they're their fur is at prime. So you get some 176 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.840 really nice skins for making clothing and and tps and 177 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:44.320 all kinds of stuff. So so yeah, so that was 178 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:45.519 an efficient way of doing it. 179 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.360 Going back into some history, much much more recent, tell 180 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.720 me a little bit about how you started to love 181 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.840 bison or now you mentioned you mentioned that you have 182 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.919 a New Jersey accent. H Yeah, so now you grew 183 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.080 up in New Jersey, But what brought you out to 184 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:08.240 Yellowstone in the natural Park Service. At at what point 185 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:09.799 did you want to start working in nature. 186 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:12.279 Well, I've always wanted to work in nature. I grew 187 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:15.320 up on the Jersey shore, and I actually started out 188 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:19.159 as wanting to be a marine biologist. So my undergraduate 189 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:23.039 work was as a biologist like Jack Rousteau. And because 190 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:25.360 I used to scuba dive and hang out on the beach, 191 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:29.799 and I swear when I was seventeen, I would never 192 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:31.320 live more than a half a mile from the ocean. 193 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:33.840 So here we are, yes, and here we are in 194 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:37.759 so so be careful about those things that you say 195 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.559 put out there in nature to the gods. 196 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:44.320 Okay, no, you're not losing your mind. Last week's guest, 197 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.039 future ologist Rose Evlith, also wanted to follow in the 198 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:51.159 flipper steps of Jacques Cousteau before finding her own path. 199 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:56.399 Weird cute, right and anyway, So I went there and 200 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.840 I got a little bit frustrated with the biology program there. 201 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:05.679 It was largely geared towards pre med students. But then 202 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.720 I started taking anthropology courses. It was a small program, 203 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.639 really good professors treated you like a human being and 204 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.080 not just a number. And I learned that I could 205 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.720 I could do biology within as an archaeologist. 206 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.840 Oh so Ken graduated from the University of Florida and 207 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.879 did grad school in Tennessee, and then got his PhD 208 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.159 from the University of Nebraska Lincoln, studying the biogeography of 209 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:35.440 prehistoric bison isotopes. So how did this Jersey dude wind 210 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:37.000 up so far from the sea? 211 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.000 I wanted to get out of town, essentially and see 212 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.679 something different, and as a fluke, I just applied for 213 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.919 a job with the National Park Service and got hired 214 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:49.759 by the Midwest Archaeological Center and the first job was 215 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:54.039 to go and work in Granteeta National Park. So you know, 216 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.320 it's just those weird things that happen in life, and 217 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.720 you just got to kind of go, okay, let's go, 218 00:11:58.879 --> 00:11:59.159 let's go. 219 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:00.279 Yeah. 220 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:01.840 It was just it wasn't a plan. 221 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:04.399 But it seems like it served you well. 222 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:07.759 Yeah, yeah, I'm very glad that it all happened. I 223 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.440 remember my when I got hired and drove out, I 224 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.600 had this, of course, I had a nice little VW 225 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.000 bug that I drove all the way out to grant 226 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:21.360 Teeta from Tennessee, and when I got there, my boss 227 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:23.720 told me, it's like you were the last person we picked. 228 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:25.600 Ouch. 229 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:28.840 I said, okay, well, and mostly because I didn't have 230 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.960 any experience out there, and I but it was it 231 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.200 was a slam and I was like, okay, take that 232 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.440 as a challenge, right, you know, do you live up 233 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:35.720 to it? 234 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:36.120 Then? 235 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:40.679 I don't know. I'm still trying. It's an ongoing process. 236 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.679 Is there something about bison themselves that that intrigued you? 237 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:49.799 I feel like as an American, I think that there's 238 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:53.799 so much lore and history and and maybe even a 239 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:56.120 dark history to them as well. Is that something that 240 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:57.799 kind of grabbed you as an archaeologist. 241 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:02.879 It cribbed he as an archaeologist because in the mountains 242 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.799 they were never seen as being an important part of 243 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:12.159 the subsistence economy of Native American groups, and that was 244 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:16.360 intriguing to me. But also I think you're right, Yeah, 245 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:21.320 there's there's there's an iconic history to bison. It's a 246 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.759 it is a deep, dark history, but it's also a 247 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:28.159 very exciting positive history because we brought them back from 248 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.559 from extinction and and it was and it was you know, 249 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:33.480 it was it was the efforts by a small group 250 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:35.960 of people that said, this is crazy that we go 251 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.960 from thirty million to down to nineteen or one hundred 252 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.879 or whatever the number was, and at the turn of 253 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.720 the last century. I think that's a big part of it, 254 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.559 is that just that's you know, that story, that resurrection 255 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.639 story is there too. But they're they're cool animals. I mean, 256 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.399 you just go out and they're just they're just cool 257 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:54.360 to sit. 258 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:55.799 Watch, and they're majestic. 259 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:56.799 They are majestic. 260 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:57.159 Yes. 261 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.240 Now, Ken's colleague, doctor Dan McNulty no relation to squid 262 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.919 expert Sarah McAnulty got his bachelor's in environmental studies at 263 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.600 the University of Colorado and got a master's in wildlife 264 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:14.519 conservation and a PhD in ecology, evolution and Behavior from 265 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.879 the University of Minnesota. So how did he get lured 266 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:21.000 into the bis in life? And now are you from Utah? 267 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:21.600 No? 268 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:26.720 I born in Illinois. I grew up in California, went 269 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:27.720 to school in Colorado. 270 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.440 So one might say you've been roaming around as well. 271 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.159 I have been a bit nomadic, right, although not lately. 272 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.879 And so you are a bisonologist. You study bison as 273 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.399 part of your job, whether you would call yourself that or. 274 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.200 Not, I would say that bisonology is part of my program. 275 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.240 Yet Okay, yep, and so how long have you been 276 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:53.919 into science and field work and animals. What was it 277 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:54.759 that drew you to this? 278 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.440 Well, I lived in Hong Kong for three years when 279 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.440 I was in junior high and so that was obviously 280 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.480 very urban environment. And when I got back to California, 281 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:06.919 I was like in the eighth or seventh grade, and 282 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:11.879 we lived on the edge of big open space, lots 283 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.039 of live oaks and hills, and it kind of just 284 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.320 sucked me in, suck me soon after we got back, 285 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.799 and I've been kind of at it since then. And 286 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.240 actually even before that. I grew up, you know, riding 287 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.720 horses with my dad in that country, and just got 288 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:32.399 really into it once I got back from that little 289 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:36.159 stay in Hong Kong and just a lot of time 290 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:37.960 spent camping, hiking. 291 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:41.799 Dan said, growing up he always loved animals and being 292 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.799 out in nature observing them. 293 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.000 But I never really thought i'd actually make a career 294 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.759 of it. I was an undergraduate at Boulder, Colorado, and 295 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.639 then went up to Yellowstone, and actually it was that 296 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:55.679 was kind of when I was sort of the aha 297 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:57.360 moment that, yeah, you know, I think I can make 298 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:01.039 science into a career was when I arrived in Yellowstone. 299 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:05.159 This was ninety five, and I just got to see 300 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:09.759 wildlife biologists in action. You know, the folks that I 301 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.320 worked up up there had made it their career, had 302 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.960 met other people that had been at it for a 303 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.919 very long time, and it sort of dawned on me that, well, 304 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.879 you know, if you work hard and you focus, you know, 305 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.080 it's possible to make this a career. So that's kind 306 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:24.799 of where I really sort of got started. 307 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:30.360 And now, how did you end up in the bison arena? 308 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:34.399 Sort of following wolves? Okay, yeah, the wolves brought me 309 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:35.480 to the bison. 310 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.120 So the wolves brought him to the buffalo. But you know, 311 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.279 before we go much further, let's clear this up. Buffalo 312 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:47.080 or bison. So buffalo etymologically comes from the word for 313 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.480 an African antelope and then expanded to mean a wild 314 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:56.440 European ox and then French fur trappers saw bison and 315 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:00.399 called them booth, meaning oxen or beefs, so they were 316 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.960 like buffalo. But currently is there a difference when referring 317 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:10.319 to the wooly, hookhorned, beautiful beasts of the North American Plains. 318 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:13.359 I called my cousin Boyd and his longtime love and wife, 319 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:16.640 Lila up in Browning, Montana, which is a small town 320 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.440 of just a few thousand people and with the Blackfeet Reservation, 321 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.799 over ninety percent of the town are Indigenous folks. Llla 322 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:24.960 is a member of the Blackfeet tribe, and I've been 323 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.680 lucky to learn about her heritage and their family's tribal 324 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:33.119 involvement over the years. And about buffalo bison. You don't 325 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:34.720 mind if I have buffalo questions? 326 00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:38.319 No, we absolutely do not. 327 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:41.559 I'm so excited to talk to you about this because 328 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.680 it's like I know people who actually get to see 329 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.799 buffalo and bison every day. This is so exciting. Okay, 330 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.920 my first question is the difference between a buffalo and 331 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.559 a bison? Stupid question. There is none, no such thing 332 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:57.680 as the difference. 333 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:01.640 No difference, just whatever. 334 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:07.599 Okay, So it's either or yeah, yeah, potato, potato, tomato, tomato. 335 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.839 Yeah, that's kind of what it is. 336 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.200 And then how long have you had buffalo? 337 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:16.240 Twenty years? 338 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:21.160 Twenty years? Yeah, Boyd and Lila started with just six 339 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.880 a few decades ago. What made you go get the buffalo? 340 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:30.279 Just start We try that, just give it a shot. 341 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:35.680 Yeah, do you know you have to take those chances? 342 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.079 Once again? The life lesson is get a buffalo or 343 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.640 six cut bangs, text your crush because we're all gonna die. 344 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:47.160 So they took a chance. They now have fifty two bison. Also, 345 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.519 I felt very stupid because I've read and heard both 346 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.480 Blackfeet or Blackfoot, and the name comes from the dark 347 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:58.000 souls of these bison hunters moccasins, and I didn't want 348 00:18:58.000 --> 00:18:59.559 to say it wrong. So I asked a very smart 349 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.319 person a stupid question and it correct me. Is it 350 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:08.160 Blackfoot Indian Blackfoot Confederacy, Blackfeet Nation? I want to make 351 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:08.519 sure I. 352 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:14.680 Say, okay, all right, there is a Blackfoot Confederacy, which 353 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:20.039 is our black Feet tribe, the black Tribe in Canada, 354 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:25.240 and the Blackfoot tribe in Canada, and the Sarci tribe 355 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:28.359 and one other tribe, but I don't remember what it is. 356 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:33.880 They're all connected. That's the Blackfoot Confederacy, okay, But we 357 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:38.079 are actually the Blackfeet tribe in Montana and we're the 358 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.319 only ones on this side of the life. 359 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:46.119 And traditionally and historically, what has the Blackfeet relation to 360 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.720 bison and buffalo been like? 361 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:53.759 Historically that's what they lived on. They followed the buffalo 362 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:58.799 and the when and then when they became big things 363 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:03.079 back east, like when your hides became really valuable back 364 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:10.799 east for hats and overseas, then everybody went to killing buffalo. 365 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.680 And that's basically how the buffalo almost died completely out. 366 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:20.880 Before we talk about the brutal decline, the lumbering comeback, 367 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.480 and their hopeful future, let's get some history down with 368 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:30.279 archaeologist Ken and going backwards a little bit. What is 369 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.599 a buffalo? What is a bison? What is the difference? 370 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:36.400 What is this animal? What is a bison? 371 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.960 I think the bison and buffalore they're interchangeable terms. Okay, 372 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.720 I think I'm I'm sure some taxonomous. I'll write you 373 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.480 an email and say, yeah, I don't know what he's 374 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:50.599 talking about, but but I refer to him as bison. Okay, 375 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.720 so North American bison. The species is bison, bison? 376 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:56.359 I read that, isn't it bison? 377 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.720 It can be by some And the textomy a bison 378 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.680 is still being debated. 379 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.160 Really, yeah, what are. 380 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:08.799 They thinking the bison derived from? Where are they what 381 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.799 taxonomy is being debated and where do they think these 382 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:13.880 this species came from? 383 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.960 Well, I think what's being debated is the the Holocene 384 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:20.599 or the you know, the last ten twelve thousand years 385 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.880 of bison history after the so during the places scene, 386 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.359 we had a species of bison called bison antiquis. Some 387 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.119 people might say bison bison antiquis, but that was probably 388 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.680 about a third larger than the modern bisonar. The herd 389 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:42.160 sizes probably weren't as big, their behavior might have been 390 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.200 somewhat different than bisonar today. But over probably once a 391 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:53.640 glaciers retreated between about ten and seven eight nine or 392 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:57.640 seven to five six thousand years ago, they went through 393 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.759 this diminution, so they became small are in size and 394 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:05.279 became what we know is the modern bison bison, And 395 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:07.079 we think a lot of that might have to do 396 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.839 with just changes in the environment. The climate was drying 397 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.200 out somewhat, the vegetation was changing, so it wasn't quite 398 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:19.000 as nutritious. It's just there's a lot of theories that 399 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:20.799 are being pushed around out there. 400 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.640 So bison, bison, bison, plains of Buffalo. But there's another 401 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.880