Speaker 1: Eight oh five, ninety five kr CD Talk stationing. Very
Speaker 1: Happy Friday to you by the Timas. Please to welcome
Speaker 1: my next guest, local author, and I enjoy having local
Speaker 1: authors on the program, Alyssa McClanahan. She is described as
Speaker 1: a writer scholar specializing in historic preservation and public urban
Speaker 1: as well as environmental history, as a PhD from my
Speaker 1: alma mater, PhD in History from the University of Cincinnati,
Speaker 1: and she's also the author of a book that we'll
Speaker 1: not be talking about today, Findley Market is Cincinnati, which
Speaker 1: uses Findley Market as a vehicle to explore the larger
Speaker 1: history of US cities. Welcome to the program, Alyssa. It's
Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you on today.
Speaker 2: Hello, thank you for having me. Good morning.
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. And the name of the book we're
Speaker 1: talking about today, Zimmer, the movement that defeated a nuclear
Speaker 1: power plant. I remember the saga Zimmer to a certain degree.
Speaker 1: It goes back quite a few years. But the original
Speaker 1: Zimmer nuclear power plant, as I understand it was announcer,
Speaker 1: proposed back in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 2: Yes, correct, Yeah, it goes back quite a bit.
Speaker 1: And so when did the first shovel hit the ground.
Speaker 1: When did the construction begin on Zimmer.
Speaker 2: Very soon after that? They got a construction permit to
Speaker 2: start significant amount of work in nineteen seventy two, but
Speaker 2: they were allowed to do kind of like raising and
Speaker 2: prepping the site prior to that construction permit. And then
Speaker 2: when they canceled the project in nineteen eighty four converting
Speaker 2: it to a coal plant, it was then ninety nine
Speaker 2: percent built, So the majority of it was built from
Speaker 2: seventy two to eighty.
Speaker 1: Four, So it took about fifteen years to get it
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent done and then they pulled a plug
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, so the book explores this saga, this drama.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the saga and drama, because I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm a fan of the concept of nuclear power. I'm
Speaker 1: not a global warming believer. I'm not a climate change believer,
Speaker 1: but you know, if getting carbon out of the air
Speaker 1: is in important and the best way to do that
Speaker 1: and provided abundance of cheap, pollution free electricity is a
Speaker 1: nuclear power plant. They produce a lot of electricity and
Speaker 1: comparatively small footprint nowadays. But this was your more traditional
Speaker 1: old school cooling tower nuclear plant.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, Yes, yes. So the big thing the book
Speaker 2: is up to is taking the story of Zimmer, which
Speaker 2: is one can test a nuclear power plants, and exploring
Speaker 2: the larger history of nuclear power as it took off
Speaker 2: and then kind of faltered in the US in the
Speaker 2: sixties and seventies into the early eighties. One of the
Speaker 2: things that I want to do for readers is, as
Speaker 2: we're thinking about reinvesting in nuclear power now for a
Speaker 2: variety of reasons, as you mentioned, I think we just
Speaker 2: need to understand this very recent history in the sixties
Speaker 2: and seventies and eighties. You know, we heavily tried to
Speaker 2: invest in it in those decades, and the industry faltered
Speaker 2: significantly at significant costs to utility companies, many of which
Speaker 2: went bankrupt to utility customers. And so I think I
Speaker 2: would I want to share the hang ups of that
Speaker 2: industry by looking at one interesting story, one local story,
Speaker 2: to give readers some you know, some good knowledge, some
Speaker 2: good information to think about it today. Because because you're right,
Speaker 2: they produce enormous amounts of energy compared to a coal plant,
Speaker 2: for instance, they are still incredibly expensive to build, which
Speaker 2: was one of the issues back then. They still you know,
Speaker 2: have other hang ups too. They still produce significant numbers
Speaker 2: of whistle blowing workers who say this isn't safe, this
Speaker 2: was installed correctly, That was an issue back then. As
Speaker 2: the book explores, they still have issues with quality control
Speaker 2: and assurance. We still have no safe way to actually
Speaker 2: dispose of the waste, so they're not you know, really renewable.
Speaker 2: So there's significant issues with them that we just need
Speaker 2: to think through today. And I'm hoping that by exploring,
Speaker 2: you know, very recent history through a good story, that
Speaker 2: readers can get some of that good knowledge so they
Speaker 2: can better think about nuclear power today. Well that's what
Speaker 2: I'm up to.
Speaker 1: That's great, and I think it's an outstanding effort that
Speaker 1: you've engaged in here, because you know, small modular small
Speaker 1: modular reactors these days are nowhere anything like the Zimmer
Speaker 1: Power Plan or those old school nuclear reactors. They're completely
Speaker 1: different technologies, much smaller, easier to operate, and much less
Speaker 1: a waste coming out of them, if any. I've heard
Speaker 1: many people say that there really isn't any at all,
Speaker 1: but ignoring the realities of modern nuclear actors when it
Speaker 1: comes to the whistleblowers that were that were coming out,
Speaker 1: and I even remember hearing news stories about that that
Speaker 1: it was unsafe whistle blowers coming out the construction concerns.
Speaker 1: Were those legitimate complaints by legitimate people, or were those
Speaker 1: motivated by political activism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question the former. Actually, So what
Speaker 2: I found was Zimmer. The vast majority of whistleblowers came
Speaker 2: out in the late seventies early eighties, so this is
Speaker 2: years into the plant going under construction. These are pretty
Speaker 2: much exclusively men who work at the plant or inspect
Speaker 2: the plant, and they are very, very hesitant to come forward.
Speaker 2: Many of them described their life thereafter were just wrecked.
Speaker 2: They were made paries in their communities, they lost their job,
Speaker 2: their family felt unsafe. They were incredibly hesitant to come forward.
Speaker 2: But these were men who ultimately felt like they wanted
Speaker 2: to point out some serious safety issues. Not all of
Speaker 2: them had serious safety issues they were pointing out some
Speaker 2: of them were not in safety related things that they
Speaker 2: just felt like, I'm a quality control inspector, this isn't
Speaker 2: how you do this kind of a thing, you know,
Speaker 2: the procedural things, which I respect. Others were pointing out
Speaker 2: thousands of very serious safety issues with Zimmer, to the
Speaker 2: point that they ended up having to tire lawyers to
Speaker 2: represent them. And so there's a law firm actually out
Speaker 2: a DC that came in just this one guy who
Speaker 2: was very young at the time, and he represented them,
Speaker 2: and I talked to him quite a lot because he himself,
Speaker 2: like you, you know, isn't opposed a nuclear power on
Speaker 2: principle by any means, but he was just very struck
Speaker 2: by how all of these men were so fearful and
Speaker 2: felt like, I need to come forward. And when they
Speaker 2: would give public testimony, these would you they would use
Speaker 2: voice distortion machines, they would cover themselves in drapes, looking
Speaker 2: like ghosts. Essentially, they didn't want to have any of
Speaker 2: their names released. As a historian, looking at my sources,
Speaker 2: very few of their names are actually out there. So
Speaker 2: these are people who were threatened with physical violence. Many
Speaker 2: of them lost their jobs, and so it's it was
Speaker 2: it felt very very real to me, you know. The
Speaker 2: popular protest movement that emerged across the Cincinnati area was
Speaker 2: this gradual evolution of some folks that were opposed to
Speaker 2: it on principle. They were kind of the early activists,
Speaker 2: and later more and more folks signed on because they
Speaker 2: were listening to whistleblowers. They were paying for Zimmer even
Speaker 2: though it wasn't producing power. And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: the whistle blowers, you know, the vast majority of them
Speaker 2: liked nuclear power. It gave them a really high paying,
Speaker 2: good job, and so they were really, really hesitant to
Speaker 2: come forward. And when I talked to the men and
Speaker 2: women that worked with them that got them to kind
Speaker 2: of come forward, those people just said, you know, we
Speaker 2: need to understand Zimmer is not unique in this. It's
Speaker 2: not an aberration that the nuclear power industry, nuclear weapons
Speaker 2: production facilities produced a huge numbers of whistleblowers in the
Speaker 2: seventies and eight, and so we I think we need
Speaker 2: to dig into that whi is quality control and assurance
Speaker 2: missing in that industry, and the book explores that. You know,
Speaker 2: we we've got a rather hands off regulatory system with
Speaker 2: that industry at large. And so again, if we're thinking
Speaker 2: about it today, we need to make sure that that
Speaker 2: is that that's not the issue anymore, because we want
Speaker 2: people working at these plans to feel safe, and we
Speaker 2: definitely want the families living around them to feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, as a mom myself, you can raise your
Speaker 2: kid in the shadow of one of these and know
Speaker 2: that it's safe. So yeah, I enjoyed researching this because
Speaker 2: the protests that emerged over it came from all these
Speaker 2: different angles where some people question, you know, well what
Speaker 2: if there is an accident, and other people question just
Speaker 2: the regular radiation that comes from it at low levels,
Speaker 2: you know, is that safe for my farm or my kids.
Speaker 2: Other people were really concerned about the cost. Ohio has
Speaker 2: to have state provision that once you completed a new
Speaker 2: power plant seventy five percent complete, you could include its
Speaker 2: costs on utility customers bills, and so towards the end
Speaker 2: of the zimmer Saga, utility customers were paying for a
Speaker 2: very expensive, very overbudget plant that wasn't yet producing power,
Speaker 2: and so customers, particularly working class and low income folks,
Speaker 2: got very upset because they're paying for something that they're
Speaker 2: not even benefiting from. And so it's this really kind
Speaker 2: of weird, beautiful story of this protest movement that's not
Speaker 2: really a movement, but like twelve movements combined. And it
Speaker 2: was very interesting to study because it's like a lot
Speaker 2: of different perspectives, liberals, conservatives, all sorts of people that
Speaker 2: had something to say about it. And I very much
Speaker 2: enjoyed that.
Speaker 1: Oh, I imagine, and I can see how this coalition
Speaker 1: would build with all the stories coming out. And you
Speaker 1: had the initial protesters, the environmentalists, which just I think
Speaker 1: stood on, well, it's nuclear airG it has to be bad.
Speaker 1: Because this protest started before Three Mile Island hit and
Speaker 1: CO through my line, fueled the fire of that activism.
Speaker 1: They thought every single one of these plants represented an
Speaker 1: existential threat to the general community, if not you know,
Speaker 1: the state, or the geographic area. We're the large geographic area.
Speaker 1: But you mentioned government regulations, and it seems to me
Speaker 1: that in modern times, governmental regulations are the ones that
Speaker 1: stand in the way of progress. And I thought maybe
Speaker 1: that was one of the reasons why it took so
Speaker 1: long to at least from the start of the project
Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty four when they pulled the plug on it,
Speaker 1: that maybe the regulatory environment was part of the problem.
Speaker 1: But you suggested it, No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit of both. What's so interesting
Speaker 2: about why nuclear power in this country takes off and
Speaker 2: then kind of to be a bit dramatic like crashes
Speaker 2: and burns is a host of factors, and so I
Speaker 2: try to explore this in a really hopefully readable way
Speaker 2: in the Zimmer book. So protest is one aspect of it,
Speaker 2: but honestly, they're not really the one thinking the project.
Speaker 2: It's actually the money. And I think protests, you know,
Speaker 2: raises people's awareness of the money in a very important way.
Speaker 2: But it's the money that really really drives utility companies
Speaker 2: to cancel these projects. And to your point, part of
Speaker 2: the enormity of costs in that era was because there's
Speaker 2: this growing governmental review process, in part because of the
Speaker 2: environmental movement, and a lot of that was frankly very good.
Speaker 2: We want to make sure that these things are built safely.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, if you're you know, sympathetic
Speaker 2: to these utility companies, which I try to be in
Speaker 2: the book, you're just holding costs or growing and growing
Speaker 2: and growing as you have to go from one public
Speaker 2: hearing to the next, and then you need twelve different
Speaker 2: agencies to review this thing. That is a lot, and
Speaker 2: so you feel for them. In addition to that growing
Speaker 2: governmental review, there's also the issue that the one government
Speaker 2: agency that's tasked with trying to get these things on
Speaker 2: air safely, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and took an incredibly
Speaker 2: hands off approach to that regulation in a way that
Speaker 2: ultimately drug out the process instead of made it more efficient.
Speaker 2: They deferred pretty much all of the quality control to utilities,
Speaker 2: and utilities had no experience building nuclear power plants in
Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies because no one did. It was
Speaker 2: very new technology good, so they, you know, they kind
Speaker 2: of went at it with a lot of the attitude
Speaker 2: of well, I know how to build a coal plant,
Speaker 2: and they did, they were very good at that, but
Speaker 2: no one knew how to build a nuclear power plant.
Speaker 2: And as you mentioned earlier, they were huge back then,
Speaker 2: physically huge, and they required redundant, redundant, redundant quality control
Speaker 2: to make sure that they were built well and that
Speaker 2: the men building them were safe and the families nearby
Speaker 2: were safe. And we just didn't understand that at large,
Speaker 2: that that's the way you got got to do it.
Speaker 2: And so because of that kind of lack of quality
Speaker 2: regulation and deferred regulation to utility, then they were built
Speaker 2: pretty poorly, and so then they had to go back
Speaker 2: and fix themselves over and over again, which is what
Speaker 2: happens was Zimmer. They get fined by the Nuclear Regulatory
Speaker 2: Commission babying c Genie for not building it. Well, they
Speaker 2: got to go back and fix it. They get another fine,
Speaker 2: they got to go back and fix it. So you
Speaker 2: do feel bad for the Cincinati Gas and Electric officials
Speaker 2: at different points because they just seem like they're trying
Speaker 2: and they're not succeeding. They certainly were a group of
Speaker 2: rather arrogant officials. They thought they knew what they were doing.
Speaker 2: They were very uninterested in outside input. But you also
Speaker 2: feel sympathetic to them because you know, I'm married to
Speaker 2: a man that runs a construction based business. Those are
Speaker 2: really hard businesses to run, and utilities building massive power plants.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of the most capital intensive industries
Speaker 2: in the US. And we also have to understand that
Speaker 2: another factor that sunk nuclear power was that they're building
Speaker 2: these things in the set seventies. That was when the
Speaker 2: post war economic boom ended and it was yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and so that meant that whatever you thought your construction
Speaker 2: costs are going to be, they suddenly skyrocket. And that
Speaker 2: is not their fault. You know, they could have maybe projected, okay,
Speaker 2: what if we do have a recession. They could have
Speaker 2: done a better job with that but some of that
Speaker 2: was out of their control. And so what's so interesting
Speaker 2: about nuclear power is that it's kind of like six different, big,
Speaker 2: chunky factors that converge to think the industry instead of
Speaker 2: just one singular thing, and that so it's a really layered,
Speaker 2: nuanced story, and I'm trying to use just one singular
Speaker 2: place to help readers understand those different factors. And then
Speaker 2: again think about, Okay, well, what can we do today?
Speaker 1: Amen offering suggestions and solutions for problems from real life experience.
Speaker 1: Zimmer The Movement that Defeated a Nuclear Power Plant by
Speaker 1: my guest today, local author. I'll listen mcclanahand listen. This
Speaker 1: has been a fascinating conversation. I'm sure my listeners will
Speaker 1: be thrilled about getting a copy of the book since
Speaker 1: we have such a close connection with it here locally.
Speaker 1: I will have my producer put it on my blog
Speaker 1: page fifty five cars dot com. But folks, if you're interested,
Speaker 1: it is available on Amazon. Zimmer of the Movement that
Speaker 1: Defeated a Nuclear Power Plant. My regular producers out today,
Speaker 1: so I don't know that Danny is how to update
Speaker 1: my page, but it'll Oh, Danny, you can do it wonderful,
Speaker 1: then we'll add the link. ALYSSA real pleasure to day.
Speaker 1: Thanks for documenting this in this wonderful book.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me my pleasure,