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<v Speaker 1>Eight oh five, ninety five kr CD Talk stationing. Very

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<v Speaker 1>Happy Friday to you by the Timas. Please to welcome

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<v Speaker 1>my next guest, local author, and I enjoy having local

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<v Speaker 1>authors on the program, Alyssa McClanahan. She is described as

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<v Speaker 1>a writer scholar specializing in historic preservation and public urban

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<v Speaker 1>as well as environmental history, as a PhD from my

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<v Speaker 1>alma mater, PhD in History from the University of Cincinnati,

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<v Speaker 1>and she's also the author of a book that we'll

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<v Speaker 1>not be talking about today, Findley Market is Cincinnati, which

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<v Speaker 1>uses Findley Market as a vehicle to explore the larger

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<v Speaker 1>history of US cities. Welcome to the program, Alyssa. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a pleasure to have you on today.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, thank you for having me. Good morning.

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<v Speaker 1>It's my pleasure. And the name of the book we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about today, Zimmer, the movement that defeated a nuclear

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<v Speaker 1>power plant. I remember the saga Zimmer to a certain degree.

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<v Speaker 1>It goes back quite a few years. But the original

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<v Speaker 1>Zimmer nuclear power plant, as I understand it was announcer,

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<v Speaker 1>proposed back in nineteen sixty nine.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, correct, Yeah, it goes back quite a bit.

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<v Speaker 1>And so when did the first shovel hit the ground.

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<v Speaker 1>When did the construction begin on Zimmer.

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<v Speaker 2>Very soon after that? They got a construction permit to

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<v Speaker 2>start significant amount of work in nineteen seventy two, but

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<v Speaker 2>they were allowed to do kind of like raising and

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<v Speaker 2>prepping the site prior to that construction permit. And then

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<v Speaker 2>when they canceled the project in nineteen eighty four converting

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<v Speaker 2>it to a coal plant, it was then ninety nine

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<v Speaker 2>percent built, So the majority of it was built from

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<v Speaker 2>seventy two to eighty.

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<v Speaker 1>Four, So it took about fifteen years to get it

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<v Speaker 1>ninety nine percent done and then they pulled a plug

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<v Speaker 1>on it.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct. Yeah, so the book explores this saga, this drama.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about the saga and drama, because I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a fan of the concept of nuclear power. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not a global warming believer. I'm not a climate change believer,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know, if getting carbon out of the air

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<v Speaker 1>is in important and the best way to do that

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<v Speaker 1>and provided abundance of cheap, pollution free electricity is a

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<v Speaker 1>nuclear power plant. They produce a lot of electricity and

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<v Speaker 1>comparatively small footprint nowadays. But this was your more traditional

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<v Speaker 1>old school cooling tower nuclear plant.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, Yes, Yes, yes. So the big thing the book

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<v Speaker 2>is up to is taking the story of Zimmer, which

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<v Speaker 2>is one can test a nuclear power plants, and exploring

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<v Speaker 2>the larger history of nuclear power as it took off

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<v Speaker 2>and then kind of faltered in the US in the

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<v Speaker 2>sixties and seventies into the early eighties. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that I want to do for readers is, as

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<v Speaker 2>we're thinking about reinvesting in nuclear power now for a

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<v Speaker 2>variety of reasons, as you mentioned, I think we just

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<v Speaker 2>need to understand this very recent history in the sixties

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<v Speaker 2>and seventies and eighties. You know, we heavily tried to

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<v Speaker 2>invest in it in those decades, and the industry faltered

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<v Speaker 2>significantly at significant costs to utility companies, many of which

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<v Speaker 2>went bankrupt to utility customers. And so I think I

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<v Speaker 2>would I want to share the hang ups of that

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<v Speaker 2>industry by looking at one interesting story, one local story,

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<v Speaker 2>to give readers some you know, some good knowledge, some

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<v Speaker 2>good information to think about it today. Because because you're right,

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<v Speaker 2>they produce enormous amounts of energy compared to a coal plant,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance, they are still incredibly expensive to build, which

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<v Speaker 2>was one of the issues back then. They still you know,

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<v Speaker 2>have other hang ups too. They still produce significant numbers

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<v Speaker 2>of whistle blowing workers who say this isn't safe, this

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<v Speaker 2>was installed correctly, That was an issue back then. As

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<v Speaker 2>the book explores, they still have issues with quality control

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<v Speaker 2>and assurance. We still have no safe way to actually

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<v Speaker 2>dispose of the waste, so they're not you know, really renewable.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's significant issues with them that we just need

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<v Speaker 2>to think through today. And I'm hoping that by exploring,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, very recent history through a good story, that

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<v Speaker 2>readers can get some of that good knowledge so they

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<v Speaker 2>can better think about nuclear power today. Well that's what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm up to.

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<v Speaker 1>That's great, and I think it's an outstanding effort that

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<v Speaker 1>you've engaged in here, because you know, small modular small

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<v Speaker 1>modular reactors these days are nowhere anything like the Zimmer

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<v Speaker 1>Power Plan or those old school nuclear reactors. They're completely

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<v Speaker 1>different technologies, much smaller, easier to operate, and much less

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<v Speaker 1>a waste coming out of them, if any. I've heard

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<v Speaker 1>many people say that there really isn't any at all,

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<v Speaker 1>but ignoring the realities of modern nuclear actors when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to the whistleblowers that were that were coming out,

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<v Speaker 1>and I even remember hearing news stories about that that

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<v Speaker 1>it was unsafe whistle blowers coming out the construction concerns.

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<v Speaker 1>Were those legitimate complaints by legitimate people, or were those

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<v Speaker 1>motivated by political activism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a great question the former. Actually, So what

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<v Speaker 2>I found was Zimmer. The vast majority of whistleblowers came

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<v Speaker 2>out in the late seventies early eighties, so this is

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<v Speaker 2>years into the plant going under construction. These are pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much exclusively men who work at the plant or inspect

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<v Speaker 2>the plant, and they are very, very hesitant to come forward.

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<v Speaker 2>Many of them described their life thereafter were just wrecked.

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<v Speaker 2>They were made paries in their communities, they lost their job,

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<v Speaker 2>their family felt unsafe. They were incredibly hesitant to come forward.

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<v Speaker 2>But these were men who ultimately felt like they wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to point out some serious safety issues. Not all of

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<v Speaker 2>them had serious safety issues they were pointing out some

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<v Speaker 2>of them were not in safety related things that they

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<v Speaker 2>just felt like, I'm a quality control inspector, this isn't

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<v Speaker 2>how you do this kind of a thing, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the procedural things, which I respect. Others were pointing out

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<v Speaker 2>thousands of very serious safety issues with Zimmer, to the

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<v Speaker 2>point that they ended up having to tire lawyers to

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<v Speaker 2>represent them. And so there's a law firm actually out

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<v Speaker 2>a DC that came in just this one guy who

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<v Speaker 2>was very young at the time, and he represented them,

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<v Speaker 2>and I talked to him quite a lot because he himself,

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<v Speaker 2>like you, you know, isn't opposed a nuclear power on

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<v Speaker 2>principle by any means, but he was just very struck

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<v Speaker 2>by how all of these men were so fearful and

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<v Speaker 2>felt like, I need to come forward. And when they

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<v Speaker 2>would give public testimony, these would you they would use

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<v Speaker 2>voice distortion machines, they would cover themselves in drapes, looking

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<v Speaker 2>like ghosts. Essentially, they didn't want to have any of

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<v Speaker 2>their names released. As a historian, looking at my sources,

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<v Speaker 2>very few of their names are actually out there. So

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<v Speaker 2>these are people who were threatened with physical violence. Many

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<v Speaker 2>of them lost their jobs, and so it's it was

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<v Speaker 2>it felt very very real to me, you know. The

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<v Speaker 2>popular protest movement that emerged across the Cincinnati area was

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<v Speaker 2>this gradual evolution of some folks that were opposed to

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<v Speaker 2>it on principle. They were kind of the early activists,

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<v Speaker 2>and later more and more folks signed on because they

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<v Speaker 2>were listening to whistleblowers. They were paying for Zimmer even

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<v Speaker 2>though it wasn't producing power. And I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the whistle blowers, you know, the vast majority of them

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<v Speaker 2>liked nuclear power. It gave them a really high paying,

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<v Speaker 2>good job, and so they were really, really hesitant to

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<v Speaker 2>come forward. And when I talked to the men and

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<v Speaker 2>women that worked with them that got them to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of come forward, those people just said, you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>need to understand Zimmer is not unique in this. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not an aberration that the nuclear power industry, nuclear weapons

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<v Speaker 2>production facilities produced a huge numbers of whistleblowers in the

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<v Speaker 2>seventies and eight, and so we I think we need

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<v Speaker 2>to dig into that whi is quality control and assurance

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<v Speaker 2>missing in that industry, and the book explores that. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we we've got a rather hands off regulatory system with

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<v Speaker 2>that industry at large. And so again, if we're thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about it today, we need to make sure that that

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<v Speaker 2>is that that's not the issue anymore, because we want

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<v Speaker 2>people working at these plans to feel safe, and we

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<v Speaker 2>definitely want the families living around them to feel like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as a mom myself, you can raise your

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<v Speaker 2>kid in the shadow of one of these and know

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<v Speaker 2>that it's safe. So yeah, I enjoyed researching this because

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<v Speaker 2>the protests that emerged over it came from all these

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<v Speaker 2>different angles where some people question, you know, well what

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<v Speaker 2>if there is an accident, and other people question just

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<v Speaker 2>the regular radiation that comes from it at low levels,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, is that safe for my farm or my kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Other people were really concerned about the cost. Ohio has

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<v Speaker 2>to have state provision that once you completed a new

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<v Speaker 2>power plant seventy five percent complete, you could include its

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<v Speaker 2>costs on utility customers bills, and so towards the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the zimmer Saga, utility customers were paying for a

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<v Speaker 2>very expensive, very overbudget plant that wasn't yet producing power,

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<v Speaker 2>and so customers, particularly working class and low income folks,

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<v Speaker 2>got very upset because they're paying for something that they're

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<v Speaker 2>not even benefiting from. And so it's this really kind

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<v Speaker 2>of weird, beautiful story of this protest movement that's not

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<v Speaker 2>really a movement, but like twelve movements combined. And it

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<v Speaker 2>was very interesting to study because it's like a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of different perspectives, liberals, conservatives, all sorts of people that

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<v Speaker 2>had something to say about it. And I very much

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<v Speaker 2>enjoyed that.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I imagine, and I can see how this coalition

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<v Speaker 1>would build with all the stories coming out. And you

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<v Speaker 1>had the initial protesters, the environmentalists, which just I think

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<v Speaker 1>stood on, well, it's nuclear airG it has to be bad.

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<v Speaker 1>Because this protest started before Three Mile Island hit and

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<v Speaker 1>CO through my line, fueled the fire of that activism.

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<v Speaker 1>They thought every single one of these plants represented an

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<v Speaker 1>existential threat to the general community, if not you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the state, or the geographic area. We're the large geographic area.

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<v Speaker 1>But you mentioned government regulations, and it seems to me

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<v Speaker 1>that in modern times, governmental regulations are the ones that

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<v Speaker 1>stand in the way of progress. And I thought maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that was one of the reasons why it took so

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<v Speaker 1>long to at least from the start of the project

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<v Speaker 1>to nineteen eighty four when they pulled the plug on it,

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe the regulatory environment was part of the problem.

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<v Speaker 1>But you suggested it, No, it wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a little bit of both. What's so interesting

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<v Speaker 2>about why nuclear power in this country takes off and

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<v Speaker 2>then kind of to be a bit dramatic like crashes

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<v Speaker 2>and burns is a host of factors, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>try to explore this in a really hopefully readable way

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<v Speaker 2>in the Zimmer book. So protest is one aspect of it,

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<v Speaker 2>but honestly, they're not really the one thinking the project.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually the money. And I think protests, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>raises people's awareness of the money in a very important way.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's the money that really really drives utility companies

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<v Speaker 2>to cancel these projects. And to your point, part of

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<v Speaker 2>the enormity of costs in that era was because there's

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<v Speaker 2>this growing governmental review process, in part because of the

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<v Speaker 2>environmental movement, and a lot of that was frankly very good.

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<v Speaker 2>We want to make sure that these things are built safely.

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<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, if you're you know, sympathetic

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<v Speaker 2>to these utility companies, which I try to be in

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<v Speaker 2>the book, you're just holding costs or growing and growing

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<v Speaker 2>and growing as you have to go from one public

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<v Speaker 2>hearing to the next, and then you need twelve different

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<v Speaker 2>agencies to review this thing. That is a lot, and

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<v Speaker 2>so you feel for them. In addition to that growing

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<v Speaker 2>governmental review, there's also the issue that the one government

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<v Speaker 2>agency that's tasked with trying to get these things on

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<v Speaker 2>air safely, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and took an incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>hands off approach to that regulation in a way that

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately drug out the process instead of made it more efficient.

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<v Speaker 2>They deferred pretty much all of the quality control to utilities,

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<v Speaker 2>and utilities had no experience building nuclear power plants in

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<v Speaker 2>the sixties and seventies because no one did. It was

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<v Speaker 2>very new technology good, so they, you know, they kind

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<v Speaker 2>of went at it with a lot of the attitude

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<v Speaker 2>of well, I know how to build a coal plant,

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<v Speaker 2>and they did, they were very good at that, but

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<v Speaker 2>no one knew how to build a nuclear power plant.

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<v Speaker 2>And as you mentioned earlier, they were huge back then,

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<v Speaker 2>physically huge, and they required redundant, redundant, redundant quality control

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure that they were built well and that

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<v Speaker 2>the men building them were safe and the families nearby

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<v Speaker 2>were safe. And we just didn't understand that at large,

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<v Speaker 2>that that's the way you got got to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>And so because of that kind of lack of quality

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<v Speaker 2>regulation and deferred regulation to utility, then they were built

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<v Speaker 2>pretty poorly, and so then they had to go back

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<v Speaker 2>and fix themselves over and over again, which is what

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<v Speaker 2>happens was Zimmer. They get fined by the Nuclear Regulatory

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<v Speaker 2>Commission babying c Genie for not building it. Well, they

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<v Speaker 2>got to go back and fix it. They get another fine,

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<v Speaker 2>they got to go back and fix it. So you

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<v Speaker 2>do feel bad for the Cincinati Gas and Electric officials

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<v Speaker 2>at different points because they just seem like they're trying

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<v Speaker 2>and they're not succeeding. They certainly were a group of

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<v Speaker 2>rather arrogant officials. They thought they knew what they were doing.

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<v Speaker 2>They were very uninterested in outside input. But you also

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<v Speaker 2>feel sympathetic to them because you know, I'm married to

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<v Speaker 2>a man that runs a construction based business. Those are

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<v Speaker 2>really hard businesses to run, and utilities building massive power plants.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's one of the most capital intensive industries

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<v Speaker 2>in the US. And we also have to understand that

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<v Speaker 2>another factor that sunk nuclear power was that they're building

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<v Speaker 2>these things in the set seventies. That was when the

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<v Speaker 2>post war economic boom ended and it was yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that meant that whatever you thought your construction

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<v Speaker 2>costs are going to be, they suddenly skyrocket. And that

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<v Speaker 2>is not their fault. You know, they could have maybe projected, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>what if we do have a recession. They could have

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<v Speaker 2>done a better job with that but some of that

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<v Speaker 2>was out of their control. And so what's so interesting

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<v Speaker 2>about nuclear power is that it's kind of like six different, big,

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<v Speaker 2>chunky factors that converge to think the industry instead of

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<v Speaker 2>just one singular thing, and that so it's a really layered,

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<v Speaker 2>nuanced story, and I'm trying to use just one singular

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<v Speaker 2>place to help readers understand those different factors. And then

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<v Speaker 2>again think about, Okay, well, what can we do today?

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<v Speaker 1>Amen offering suggestions and solutions for problems from real life experience.

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<v Speaker 1>Zimmer The Movement that Defeated a Nuclear Power Plant by

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<v Speaker 1>my guest today, local author. I'll listen mcclanahand listen. This

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<v Speaker 1>has been a fascinating conversation. I'm sure my listeners will

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<v Speaker 1>be thrilled about getting a copy of the book since

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<v Speaker 1>we have such a close connection with it here locally.

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<v Speaker 1>I will have my producer put it on my blog

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<v Speaker 1>page fifty five cars dot com. But folks, if you're interested,

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<v Speaker 1>it is available on Amazon. Zimmer of the Movement that

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<v Speaker 1>Defeated a Nuclear Power Plant. My regular producers out today,

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<v Speaker 1>so I don't know that Danny is how to update

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<v Speaker 1>my page, but it'll Oh, Danny, you can do it wonderful,

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<v Speaker 1>then we'll add the link. ALYSSA real pleasure to day.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for documenting this in this wonderful book.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me my pleasure,