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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Michael Peterson
Speaker 4: was driven to succeed. An army brat turned marine, he
Speaker 4: saw combat in Vietnam and returned a decorated soldier. An
Speaker 4: avid reader, his dreams of being an acclaimed novelists came true.
Speaker 4: His desire to find love was fulfilled when he married
Speaker 4: brilliant executive Kathleen at Water, the first female student accepted
Speaker 4: at Duke University School of Engineering. The Peterson seemed like
Speaker 4: the ideal academic couple, well respected, prosperous, and happy. All
Speaker 4: that came crashing down in December of two thousand and
Speaker 4: one when Kathleen apparently fell to her death in their
Speaker 4: secluded home in an exclusive ay of Durham, North Carolina,
Speaker 4: but blood spattered evidence in a missing fireplace poker suggested calculated,
Speaker 4: cold blooded murder. Her trusted husband stood accused. Then the
Speaker 4: most damaging evidence of all surfaced. Sixteen years earlier. Peterson
Speaker 4: was the last person to see his neighbor alive before
Speaker 4: she was found dead at the bottom of a staircase
Speaker 4: in her home in Germany. A dramatic trial followed in
Speaker 4: the explosive final chapter of a life that no novelists
Speaker 4: could ever have conced. The book they're featuring this evening
Speaker 4: is Written in Blood, a true story of murder and
Speaker 4: a sixteen year old secret that tore a family apart,
Speaker 4: with my special guest, journalist and author, Diane Fanning. Welcome
Speaker 4: back to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 4: agreeing to this interview, Diane Fanny.
Speaker 2: Good evening, Dan, it's pleasure.
Speaker 5: To talk with you again.
Speaker 4: It is always a pleasure and it's going to be
Speaker 4: always a treat for the audience, especially with this book
Speaker 4: Written in Blood. I won't ask you how you became involved,
Speaker 4: because it's too much to talk about in too short
Speaker 4: a period of time, in such an involved story. In case,
Speaker 4: it's incredible. Let's go right to as You Do dramatically
Speaker 4: in the book to the nine to one to one
Speaker 4: call December ninth, two thousand and one in Durham, North Carolina.
Speaker 4: And it's a call Mary Allen takes from Michael Peterson
Speaker 4: from eight ten eighteen ten part in me Cedar Street.
Speaker 4: What's the as You Do? In the book? What does
Speaker 4: he convey in a short period of time on the phone?
Speaker 4: Tell us about that call?
Speaker 2: He tells us that his wife has fallen down the stairs,
Speaker 2: and he.
Speaker 5: Says that he doesn't know if she's breathing or not.
Speaker 2: And the most remarkable thing of all is that not
Speaker 2: once did he mention to the nine one one dispatcher
Speaker 2: that there was a lot of blood in the hallway.
Speaker 2: He never said it once, and yet that was the
Speaker 2: first thing everyone else.
Speaker 5: Noticed when they came into the home.
Speaker 4: Right now, when you talk about the phone call that
Speaker 4: he makes, and we won't, of course talk about it
Speaker 4: verbatim everything he says in that phone call. But they
Speaker 4: are trying to get information from him while they're on
Speaker 4: the line. But yet at the same time, they've already
Speaker 4: dispatched that ambulance and because of the particulars then the
Speaker 4: police are also alerted to get to this location eighteen
Speaker 4: ten Cedar Street. Now the first person that the first
Speaker 4: people that arrive at ems Jay Rose and Ron Paige,
Speaker 4: and we say their name later in the trial, of course,
Speaker 4: and tell us a little bit about Durham, North Carolina
Speaker 4: and this house that Jay Rose and Ron Page the
Speaker 4: ems are arriving at. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: that and what they find and who they find at
Speaker 4: that residence.
Speaker 5: At that time, the house, it was huge.
Speaker 2: It was about ten thousand square feet. It was an
Speaker 2: old mansion in a very nice part of town. The
Speaker 2: mansion had once been in a movie. Even the stairway.
Speaker 2: There was a scene in the original movie The Handmaid's
Speaker 2: Tale that was filmed on that stairway when the home
Speaker 2: was owned by the same guy that went up to
Speaker 2: New England and got involved in that kerfuffle with trying
Speaker 2: to get into his home own home and being stopped
Speaker 2: by the police that ended in the beer summit with Obama. Right.
Speaker 5: So, the house was amazing, you know, it has a
Speaker 5: lot of history and it was very beautiful, but it did.
Speaker 2: Need some extensive additional work on it. There were bats
Speaker 2: in the belfry as it were, and they had a
Speaker 2: number of just the structural things that needed to be corrected.
Speaker 2: The house wasn't about to fall down by any means,
Speaker 2: and you couldn't tell by looking at it that it happened.
Speaker 2: Did have some problems like many old homes.
Speaker 4: To now, when the EMS arrived, Jay Rose and Ron Page,
Speaker 4: what is Michael Peterson doing? And you introduced Todd Peterson,
Speaker 4: which is Michael's son. What do these EMS people arrive
Speaker 4: to find? And again you mentioned that everyone responds or
Speaker 4: did respond to the amount of blood, and they remarked accordingly,
Speaker 4: So tell us a little bit about their arrival, and
Speaker 4: what do they notice anything unusual? Tell us about what
Speaker 4: they encountered.
Speaker 2: They noticed that Michael Peterson wasn't wearing these shoes, and
Speaker 2: they noticed that the blood had started to dry already,
Speaker 2: and Peterson was telling them that there would only have
Speaker 2: been forty five minutes since he came in from the
Speaker 2: house and founder like this and the blood wouldn't be dry.
Speaker 2: There was also a spot on the wall that looked
Speaker 2: like someone had been smearing it, as if they were
Speaker 2: trying to clean it up. And Todd Peterson was there
Speaker 2: and he was doing most.
Speaker 5: Of the talking.
Speaker 2: Now, he supposedly just arrived there did, but there was
Speaker 2: evidence that came out later that indicated that that wasn't
Speaker 2: the first time he'd been back into that house since
Speaker 2: Kathleen died on the stairs.
Speaker 4: Well, now, when police arrived, and to anybody that asks,
Speaker 4: what's the story, he says about where he was when Kathleen,
Speaker 4: his wife, falls to her death. Where is he?
Speaker 2: This is a December night, late in the evening, and
Speaker 2: he claimed they were both sitting out by the pool.
Speaker 2: Now that's not impossible. Durham is a little balmy. But
Speaker 2: after some time Kathleen went in and Michael Peterson said
Speaker 2: he continued to sit out there in a pair of
Speaker 2: shorts for another forty five minutes, which is pretty hard
Speaker 2: to believe in that weather.
Speaker 5: It was a little bit cool, he said.
Speaker 2: When he came in, he found her like she was
Speaker 2: when they found her. But the thing of it is
Speaker 2: is there was one thing that was noticed almost ran away.
Speaker 2: There was a bloody footprint on the back of her pants.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you saw you write about all the ID texts
Speaker 4: and the CID Criminal Investigation Division that show up and
Speaker 4: they see and remark the same thing that the blood
Speaker 4: is congealed already in all of the locations. But each
Speaker 4: one of them also respond and remark to each other
Speaker 4: and later that this doesn't look like it's consistent with
Speaker 4: accidental faull. Not that they're the people that can assess
Speaker 4: that properly, but that was their first responses, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: That was the first reaction because there was an awful
Speaker 2: lot of blood in that stairway when someone falls, Yes,
Speaker 2: there's going to be blood, not that copious and not
Speaker 2: that widespread. It was really shocking to all of them
Speaker 2: at the quantity of blood that was there, and also
Speaker 2: the fact that it was starting.
Speaker 5: To dry out.
Speaker 4: You also have that right away Todd is making a
Speaker 4: statement to pull even without being officially interviewed, regarding alcohol,
Speaker 4: and also that Michael Peterson and it was corroborated story
Speaker 4: of Todd and a date that they had been at
Speaker 4: the house earlier. What's the story that Michael Peterson talks
Speaker 4: about involving the evening that they spent earlier and alcohol
Speaker 4: and what Todd had said to anybody that would even listen.
Speaker 2: Well, Michael had said that they had watched a movie
Speaker 2: and had gotten a call saying that he's the option
Speaker 2: the movie option had been renewed on his book, and
Speaker 2: they were kind of celebrating and having a little bit
Speaker 2: of champagne and toasting the night and Peterson, Todd Peterson
Speaker 2: came in and he said to the police that he
Speaker 2: did everything would call her a drunk and said that she,
Speaker 2: you know, she must have stumbled and fell because she'd
Speaker 2: been drinking, and and really did make it sound like
Speaker 2: that alcoholic misbehavior was a hallmark of existence, which since
Speaker 2: she was a very very successful six figure businesswoman, that didn't.
Speaker 5: Seem very likely.
Speaker 4: Now you have introduced them.
Speaker 5: She used valuum. Yeah, he also said she used valium right.
Speaker 4: Now. The valume actually though, happens to be correct. She
Speaker 4: did even say to some of her friends that she
Speaker 4: had been using Valume as of late.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Things were really stressful at her job, and her
Speaker 2: boss had just been fired, so there was a lot
Speaker 2: of consternation in the office place and and and a
Speaker 2: lot of that was left for her to try to abduce.
Speaker 2: So she had to stay called for everyone else, and.
Speaker 5: She was stressing a bit.
Speaker 2: And there was also the economics of their life had
Speaker 2: been getting a little tighter. They were still pretty much
Speaker 2: supporting Michael's two grown sons, in addition to having three
Speaker 2: girls in the household who would soon be ready to
Speaker 2: go off to college.
Speaker 4: Right, let's talk about a little bit about the situation
Speaker 4: that investigators find out soon enough, because this is just
Speaker 4: one little part of the story and this incredible story
Speaker 4: that it is. Tell us a little bit more about Kathleen,
Speaker 4: because we introduced her as this incredible intellectual basically and
Speaker 4: certainly it looked like a dynamic academic couple which introduced
Speaker 4: in the beginning. Tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 4: her work at Nortel and the kind of financial success
Speaker 4: that she was having for a few years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, at Nortel, she had been traveling all over the world,
Speaker 2: even to Russia to help them set up communication systems.
Speaker 5: And she was a very busy woman.
Speaker 2: In fact, the next morning she was preparing to go
Speaker 2: to Toronto for a business meeting. So she was a
Speaker 2: real dynamo. She had a lot of responsibility and it
Speaker 2: took her all around the world. She but that was
Speaker 2: only one side of her. She was much more than
Speaker 2: that as a person. Her favorite activity, believe it or not,
Speaker 2: was powerwashing the house. She loved to powerwash the house
Speaker 2: and she did all sorts of other things around the home,
Speaker 2: and she was a marvelous justice. She would have these
Speaker 2: incredible parties and she'd prepare all the food herself. So
Speaker 2: she was both a domestic goddess and a business whiz
Speaker 2: at the some time.
Speaker 4: At the same time, you also write that very difficult task.
Speaker 4: But coming into this marriage, there was already the adopted
Speaker 4: children Martha and Margaret, and also his son's Todd and
Speaker 4: another son. What was there her relationship like to all
Speaker 4: people that could look at it, but in reality, what
Speaker 4: was a relationship with those children.
Speaker 2: Well, she had her own daughter, Caitlin, and she also
Speaker 2: became the stepmother to the two other girls who were
Speaker 2: not not adopted legally by Michael Peterson. And he said
Speaker 2: the reason he didn't adopt them was because their father
Speaker 2: had died in service.
Speaker 5: To his country in the military.
Speaker 2: Their mother had died while she was a teacher for
Speaker 2: one of the schools for the children in the military,
Speaker 2: so they were both veteral employees. They both That meant
Speaker 2: that they both the children got a lot of benefits
Speaker 2: because of that, and he wanted to keep the money
Speaker 2: rolling in so he never would adopt them.
Speaker 4: Uh So.
Speaker 2: Kathleen became like another mother to them. They you know,
Speaker 2: they lost their first mother by death when they were
Speaker 2: very little, and then they lost Chael's first wife who
Speaker 2: was their stepmother when the divorce happened, and they came
Speaker 2: with Michael, and now they had Kathleen, and they adored her,
Speaker 2: and she was she had a right relationship with them.
Speaker 2: And the two boys, on the other hand, didn't particularly
Speaker 2: care for Kathleen.
Speaker 5: And it might be kind of understandable.
Speaker 2: I mean, their mother was set by the wayside and
Speaker 2: this other woman was now with father, so some of
Speaker 2: that anti Kathleen sentiment could be understandable because of the situation.
Speaker 4: Right now, with this, right away, the police within a
Speaker 4: short period of time, are looking for a search warrant.
Speaker 4: Michael Peterson seems to be very very surprised, but right away,
Speaker 4: even before his he is arrested, he contacts a lawyer.
Speaker 4: His friend, Carrie Sutton, tell us about what transpires. Shortly after,
Speaker 4: despite the story that he has given that she has
Speaker 4: felt to her death.
Speaker 5: Well, they do try to obstruct the investigation.
Speaker 2: And Michael's brother comes from Nevada and it sort of
Speaker 2: becomes an adjunct to the legal team and from then
Speaker 2: he says they need to hire a serious criminal lawyer.
Speaker 2: And that's when David Rudolph takes charge of the case
Speaker 2: and right after his arrest, and he is he's just
Speaker 2: making a big deal over being a grieving widower, and
Speaker 2: he's also trying to get all of the family onto
Speaker 2: the same page to basically cover for him. And he
Speaker 2: even tries to do that with Kathleen's sisters, and he
Speaker 2: doesn't give them very much information, and so at first
Speaker 2: they're not suspicious, but then when they actually saw the
Speaker 2: scene of the crime, they knew that something had definitely
Speaker 2: gone wrong here. And when the autopsy came out, they
Speaker 2: had absolutely no doubt that Michael Peterson was responsible for
Speaker 2: Kathleen's death.
Speaker 4: Right, you talk about Michael Peterson as well, and it
Speaker 4: comes out and as we talk about in the introduction,
Speaker 4: that it comes out at some point Martha A pardon me, Margaret,
Speaker 4: and Martha, we are talking about the children of this Elizabeth,
Speaker 4: and so tell us about Elizabeth and Germany and go backwards,
Speaker 4: as you do in the book, to tell us about
Speaker 4: Michael Peterson and his life after the army and in
Speaker 4: the military and his ability to become the novelist, which
Speaker 4: was his dream. So take us back to Germany and
Speaker 4: how he became the guardian of Martha and Margaret.
Speaker 5: Michael Peterson.
Speaker 2: Was married to a woman who had a job working
Speaker 2: in Germany as a teacher, and in that way she
Speaker 2: met Elizabeth Ratliffe.
Speaker 5: Who was also a teacher. They taught in the same.
Speaker 2: School and they lived lived just a few doors away
Speaker 2: from each other. Elizabeth was married and her husband was
Speaker 2: in the military, and he was on a mission in
Speaker 2: animal and he was just found getting in his bed
Speaker 2: one night, and so suddenly Elizabeth is there with two
Speaker 2: young girls, just about two and five years old, and
Speaker 2: having to deal with her husband's death and everything else
Speaker 2: involved with being a single parent, and she was a
Speaker 2: bit overwhelmed at first, as anyone would be. Michael Peterson
Speaker 2: stepped in and offered to help her with the financial stuff,
Speaker 2: and since you know, his wife was her friend, she
Speaker 2: was comfortable with that, and she and the girls often
Speaker 2: had Peterson's house. One night, after having dinner at their house,
Speaker 2: Michael brought them home and he helped He helped her
Speaker 2: put the two children in bed, And it is highly
Speaker 2: suspected by Elizabeth's sisters that there was something had gone
Speaker 2: wrong in the financial picture of Elizabeth's Ratliffe. There were
Speaker 2: things missing that shouldn't have been and they suspect that
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson had in some way been ripping her off
Speaker 2: while he was supposedly helping.
Speaker 5: Her with his with the finances, and that is what
Speaker 5: caused the confrontation.
Speaker 2: And at the end of that confrontation, Elizabeth was dead
Speaker 2: at the foot of the stairs in a pool blood,
Speaker 2: with blood spatter all up and down the stairway, and
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson was seen running from the home.
Speaker 4: Now, as you're read in the book, person named Barbara
Speaker 4: O'Hara which plays very prominently in the story, and she
Speaker 4: ends up being this very very caring nanny to help
Speaker 4: out with Elizabeth and children and Michael Peterson. At one
Speaker 4: time she had lived with the family. Michael Peterson advised
Speaker 4: the Liz to pay for her to have her own
Speaker 4: apartment in her own life. She is the person that
Speaker 4: discovered Liz that day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and she was horrified. And of course it
Speaker 2: naturally draws of the big question why did Michael want
Speaker 2: that woman out of the home. Why did he intervened
Speaker 2: in that way because everything seemed to be working fine,
Speaker 2: the only thing that remained was without her in the home.
Speaker 2: Elizabeth would be alone, and during the day no one
Speaker 2: would be in the house, and then the evening, you know,
Speaker 2: on school days, and in the evening, Barbara would be gone.
Speaker 2: And it was it was just kind of suspicious that
Speaker 2: he wanted her out of the home, as if he
Speaker 2: thought what he was doing would be picked up by
Speaker 2: someone else. He was messing with their finances, and also
Speaker 2: it left her even more alone and reliant on him.
Speaker 4: Now, in this first case, back in nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 4: he's in Germany, knows you right, He knows a little
Speaker 4: bit of German, but not much, but he knows an
Speaker 4: And because this is associated with the military, they send
Speaker 4: somebody in and I guess, as you're right, because they
Speaker 4: have assumptions and based on the person going in is
Speaker 4: less experienced than maybe somebody might if they were assuming
Speaker 4: that it was foul play. Tell us how on earth
Speaker 4: he gets around this? It looks like murder. How does
Speaker 4: he get past this? With the German authorities?
Speaker 2: Michael sort of with the German authorities who were sort
Speaker 2: of backing down in to the military of the United
Speaker 2: States because these were Americans and so they were not
Speaker 2: asserting themselves in any kind of investigation, and Michael Peterson
Speaker 2: pretty much took charge of the scene, and he was
Speaker 2: telling them about a medical condition that she had, which I,
Speaker 2: you know, I do not think had anything to do
Speaker 2: with their death. Maybe it increased the amount of blood flow, but.
Speaker 5: That would have been about it.
Speaker 2: And he just basically was telling the story and there
Speaker 2: was no one else to speak for Elizabeth, and he
Speaker 2: basically conned everyone. And then the pathologist that did the autopsy,
Speaker 2: he was not a forensic pathologist. He had never done
Speaker 2: a forensic pathology. His main work was for people that
Speaker 2: died of illness, of sudden illness, or people who were
Speaker 2: killed in automobile crashes or other vehicular accidents, and so
Speaker 2: he was inexperienced and untrained in any kind of forensic
Speaker 2: approach to an autopsy. And he was just in above
Speaker 2: his head and he basically took the word of Michael
Speaker 2: Peterson and the military who believed him.
Speaker 4: Yes, you write that, they end up writing something that
Speaker 4: is basically disputed later obviously, but something to the tune
Speaker 4: of cranial hemorrhage spontaneous cranial hemorrhage due to this disease
Speaker 4: that she may have had pre existing. So anyway you
Speaker 4: say it didn't have really any good experience in forensic
Speaker 4: pathology whatsoever. And so they went along amazingly by the
Speaker 4: conning of Michael Peterson, who was able to get away
Speaker 4: with this. Interesting though too, is that he there was
Speaker 4: no will, or they didn't find a will, but he
Speaker 4: created another will as helping out Liz, and that's where
Speaker 4: he wrote a provision and changed from the original will
Speaker 4: as you write, to a provision that he would be
Speaker 4: the guardian he or his wife would be the guardian
Speaker 4: of the two daughters, but also that he would also
Speaker 4: be able to control the finances to be able to
Speaker 4: support them and educate them as they saw fit. Isn't
Speaker 4: that correct?
Speaker 2: Yes, he was very very adept at taking charge of
Speaker 2: almost every situation. He was a very good manipulator, and
Speaker 2: he was a narcissist. He really felt that regular standards
Speaker 2: did not apply to him and that whatever he needed
Speaker 2: he could get.
Speaker 4: Now back to the murder at hand, and back to
Speaker 4: the question at hand. Here he eventually, with the aid
Speaker 4: of his lawyer, eventually is granted a bail so that
Speaker 4: he is back out on the street and trying to
Speaker 4: work and and also most importantly try to rally the
Speaker 4: support of his family, like you say, and at the
Speaker 4: same time try to convince members of Kathleen's family that
Speaker 4: he's innocent. Tell us how that proceeds, and also what
Speaker 4: the police are doing and finding in their investigation.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that the police found was
Speaker 2: that there was a lot of homosexual pornography, both printed
Speaker 2: and on his computer. They found correspondents with a male
Speaker 2: escort that he engaged in trying to set up a meeting.
Speaker 2: They heard from a number of people that he used
Speaker 2: to solicit men at the YMCA, So basically he was
Speaker 2: leading a double lot. And for Kathleen this would have
Speaker 2: been a big problem, not because she had any problem
Speaker 2: with homosexuality, but because she had problem with infidelity. She
Speaker 2: left her first husband because he had an affair, and
Speaker 2: she certainly wouldn't have tolerated second husband fooling around on her,
Speaker 2: whether he was having an affair or just having one
Speaker 2: night or so he was, you know, and that is
Speaker 2: probably what brought everything to the tipping point that night.
Speaker 2: But the family Number one, oh, Michael Peterson and his
Speaker 2: family were telling them that Kathleen knew all about that
Speaker 2: she was okay with it, and they knew that couldn't
Speaker 2: be true because that was just not Kathleen. And then
Speaker 2: they were also you know, pushing her stumbling on the
Speaker 2: stairs because she'd had too much to drink, and none
Speaker 2: of it was really making sense. This is somebody who
Speaker 2: was getting ready to make a big business trip the
Speaker 2: next day. She was checking on the computer for details,
Speaker 2: and Michael's computer was one that she seldom ever went
Speaker 2: to because she usually used her business laptop, but she
Speaker 2: left it in the office, so it was highly unusual
Speaker 2: for her to even go into Michael's work space at all.
Speaker 2: The loango on his computer, so she probably encountered some
Speaker 2: of that material. Meanwhile, while all this is going on,
Speaker 2: the autopsy report finally gets released, and Kathleen's sisters when they.
Speaker 5: See that autopsy report.
Speaker 2: And they see about the marks on the back of
Speaker 2: her skull, they know that, you.
Speaker 5: Know, this was not just a simple fall.
Speaker 2: And they talked to Kathleen's biological daughter, Caitlin, and they
Speaker 2: tell her that she needs to look at the autopsy
Speaker 2: report because up to the point she was supporting her
Speaker 2: stepfather Michael Peterson. I mean, she wasn't thinking that he
Speaker 2: could be responsible, and when she sat in her dorm
Speaker 2: room and looked at the autopsy report online, she was
Speaker 2: absolutely horrified.
Speaker 5: She's a bright girl. She knew that this wasn't right.
Speaker 2: And that's when she broke off with the family, and
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson's efforts to have everybody all together with him
Speaker 2: singing his praises and telling the media.
Speaker 5: That everything was okay started to disintegrate.
Speaker 4: It's a particularly chilling scene that you have in the
Speaker 4: book where Caitlin calls Martha and Margaret or one of them,
Speaker 4: pardon me, and tells one of them that they need
Speaker 4: to look at the same documents that she has, and
Speaker 4: they refuse. And that is if that's not the beginning
Speaker 4: of the rift, that certainly widens that rift in the family,
Speaker 4: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Oh yes it does. And you know, on a psychological level,
Speaker 2: you can really understand a lot of what was going
Speaker 2: on with Margaret and Martha. Here they were they lost
Speaker 2: their dad, then they lost their mom, then they lost
Speaker 2: their first step mom, then they lost the second one,
Speaker 2: and all they have left the only.
Speaker 5: Person that is Michael Peterson.
Speaker 2: Denial is a very strong thing that can come in
Speaker 2: to protect your psyching, and I think it clearly did
Speaker 2: for those two girls. And plus not only that, a
Speaker 2: manipulative feedback from Michael Peterson are you know, sort of
Speaker 2: painting this picture of its us against the world, And
Speaker 2: they were all I had to cling to. And I
Speaker 2: can understand why they went that way, but I think
Speaker 2: it's very tragic because they lost contact with their mother, sisters,
Speaker 2: their aunts, and just been lost contact with their uh stepsister, Caitlin,
Speaker 2: And it was really tragic all that Michael Peterson stole
Speaker 2: from them and they never fought back against.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, we're going to continue talking about Michael Peterson
Speaker 4: and Written in Blood, when we'll stop for a second
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Speaker 4: this incredible riff that was happening between the families, But
Speaker 4: now a grand jury is convened. Diane, December twentieth, two
Speaker 4: thousand and one. You have witnesses or heard like doctor Radish,
Speaker 4: agent Deaver, and the original investigator Art Holland. And there
Speaker 4: was an indictment. So let's fast forward to what happens
Speaker 4: after that indictment with Michael Peterson and the entire family
Speaker 4: and the media treatment of this case and their interest
Speaker 4: in it.
Speaker 2: The indictment charged Michael Peterson with first degree murder, and
Speaker 2: he was trying to use the media to his advantage.
Speaker 2: He also allowed a French production company to come in
Speaker 2: and start filming the documentary which ultimately ended up on
Speaker 2: the staircase. And they came in and I talked to
Speaker 2: them at the trial, and they were thoroughly convinced of
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson's innocence, and they wanted to be the big
Speaker 2: heroes and do a documentary on that. And they had
Speaker 2: this attitude that they were in the South, and the
Speaker 2: South is so backward, that he was just being picked
Speaker 2: on by the public because he was bisexual, and that
Speaker 2: he was just being picked on by the police because
Speaker 2: in his column in the newspaper he had written things
Speaker 2: that were negative or judgmental of some of the things
Speaker 2: that happened in the police department. And honest, you know,
Speaker 2: the administration and the police department may have had issues
Speaker 2: with him, but the rank and file policemen and detectives
Speaker 2: who were on the scene had nothing against him. They
Speaker 2: thought that some of the things he brought out were
Speaker 2: important and he and some of them they wouldn't miss
Speaker 2: one of his columns for the world. So in including
Speaker 2: the lead detective. So they they painted a picture that
Speaker 2: was not reality, and it was something that the defense
Speaker 2: attorney took and ran with. He was always bringing up
Speaker 2: things in the trial without calling Southerners backwards, leaving that
Speaker 2: impression that.
Speaker 5: He believed that.
Speaker 2: And it was to me it was a little disturbing
Speaker 2: because every day that I watched a trial, I was
Speaker 2: getting more and more evident that pointed to Michael Peterson's gills.
Speaker 2: And I couldn't understand why anyone couldn't see that.
Speaker 4: You talk about and people have seen the tactics used
Speaker 4: by David Rudolph, and a lot of people say, well,
Speaker 4: it's just a zealous, you know, very zealous defense, you know,
Speaker 4: a vigorous defense. But some of the stuff, as you
Speaker 4: write about in the book, and I agree, is very
Speaker 4: questionable to the extent that he goes to defend his client,
Speaker 4: and how he treats some people on the witness stand
Speaker 4: in what you would think would be a sensitive try
Speaker 4: to be a sensitive nature. Tell us about some of
Speaker 4: his behavior.
Speaker 2: Well, he was really very rude and aggressive and nasty
Speaker 2: to the sister of the deceased woman. Most defense attorneys
Speaker 2: won't do that, they won't.
Speaker 5: Bring the.
Speaker 2: Family members stand to tears, but he did, and he
Speaker 2: didn't care if he angered them, and I just to me.
Speaker 5: I watched the jury's.
Speaker 2: Faces and some of them were horrified by the way
Speaker 2: he was behaving towards her, and I thought it was
Speaker 2: absolutely ruthless and dreadful when he cross examined them. And
Speaker 2: then another time, when when the prosecution had something that
Speaker 2: was gory or disturbing to show the jury, he put
Speaker 2: the screen up to the jury so that you couldn't
Speaker 2: see it unless you deliberately.
Speaker 5: Went around over to that side of the room.
Speaker 2: So the family didn't see that, and it was they
Speaker 2: were very set so that the only thing everybody see
Speaker 2: was like the picking nice pictures of breathing, living Kathleen.
Speaker 2: But when Mike, when David Rudolph got up there to
Speaker 2: defend Michael Peterson, he had this huge, big screen that
Speaker 2: you could see from every.
Speaker 5: Corner of the courtroom.
Speaker 2: He didn't warn the family members to look away. He
Speaker 2: just suddenly threw up on that screen a photograph of
Speaker 2: Kathleen laying dead at the foot of those stairs. And
Speaker 2: the expression on her face at that moment is something
Speaker 2: that has burned into my head and has stayed there
Speaker 2: to this day, I can still vividly see that picture.
Speaker 5: She just looked.
Speaker 2: Horrendous and the horror on her face was unbelievable.
Speaker 4: Yes, I can't even imagine what the people at the
Speaker 4: jurors have to witness and endure, and also the victims,
Speaker 4: the families members themselves incredible and anyone attending the court
Speaker 4: actually tell us how it is that this the former
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty five murder, becomes admissible, and how it becomes
Speaker 4: that the exhamation takes place. Tell us about this incredible
Speaker 4: effort to add weight, even more weight to this murder trial.
Speaker 2: When Kathleen's sisters are informed the police about the death
Speaker 2: of Elisiamu's right lists and they knew about it because
Speaker 2: of thee to girls Margaret and marsh Martha, and so
Speaker 2: they went over to Germany. That Texas went over to Germany.
Speaker 5: And checked it out and looked at the scene, and we.
Speaker 2: Got all the reports and they got aximation order to
Speaker 2: exhume Elizabeth Ratliffe's.
Speaker 5: Body, and.
Speaker 2: They brought it back to Durham so that the same
Speaker 2: person who did Kathleen's autopsy, Gebraah Bradish, could then do
Speaker 2: an autopsy on this body and One of the amazing
Speaker 2: things she discovered was that the marks on the back
Speaker 2: of elizabeth skull were extremely similar to the marks on
Speaker 2: the back of Kathleen's skull, and blunt force trauma was
Speaker 2: something that couldn't be too heavy, but was hit hard
Speaker 2: enough to you know, leave marks you could see on
Speaker 2: a skull. And that was very troublesome and they investigated it.
Speaker 2: They talked to people who had been there at the
Speaker 2: time of the crime, and they brought a bunch of
Speaker 2: witnesses to Durham, and outside the presence of the jury,
Speaker 2: they had a hearing before the judge to determine whether
Speaker 2: or not the evidence was admissible. And it was the
Speaker 2: similarities more than anything that got that in into the courtroom.
Speaker 2: I mean, how often is one person the last person
Speaker 2: to see a victim who found dead at the foot
Speaker 2: of the stairs in a pull of blood two times?
Speaker 2: I mean it's like, you know, lightning just doesn't strike
Speaker 2: in the exact same place twice. And this is what
Speaker 2: it all looked like. And it was a similar crime.
Speaker 2: And the reports that had been filed were highly inadequate,
Speaker 2: and it was obvious that no one had really investigated this,
Speaker 2: and no one was forensic experience, had looked.
Speaker 4: At the body at all, the person we haven't spoken
Speaker 4: about at all, And if someone were listening carefully, they'd say, well,
Speaker 4: how about Michael Peterson's wife, Patty her unique situation with
Speaker 4: her friend dying and knowing, as she says later, on
Speaker 4: knowing Michael Peterson for forty years, what was her position
Speaker 4: about guilt or innocence and what did she have to
Speaker 4: say to the police.
Speaker 2: I think she could have seen him. I think she
Speaker 2: could have seen him kill Liz and would have still
Speaker 2: not believed it.
Speaker 5: That woman was so.
Speaker 2: Into standing by her man that she wouldn't even entertain
Speaker 2: the possibility that he was responsible. And in fact, she still,
Speaker 2: even though they were legally divorced, she still considered herself
Speaker 2: his wife and she would always be his wife in mind,
Speaker 2: because that you can't break who God has put together,
Speaker 2: you know, you can't.
Speaker 5: Bring in asunder.
Speaker 2: So she obviously had been controlled and manipulated by Michael
Speaker 2: Peterson for years, and somehow, even when she was free
Speaker 2: from him, she allowed herself to be that way with
Speaker 2: him anyway, And it was it was kind of bizarre. Actually,
Speaker 2: you don't see someone who is that intentionally blind and
Speaker 2: it wasn't just these two dead women. I mean, she
Speaker 2: knew that another good kind of herders accused him of
Speaker 2: stealing money and credit cards from her wallet, and she'd
Speaker 2: seen him use the cards, and it just like you, no,
Speaker 2: if it's anything bad about Michael, I refused to entertain
Speaker 2: the possibility that it's true. And there were a lot
Speaker 2: of incidents like that where he took advantage of people
Speaker 2: and got what he wanted by hurting others. And she
Speaker 2: just blew it all off, as if she too thought
Speaker 2: Michael was so exceptional that the rules didn't apply to him,
Speaker 2: just like Michael himself thought.
Speaker 4: When we talk about the main motive for at this trial,
Speaker 4: and what has been conveyed and what's theorized, is that
Speaker 4: they talk about the financial situation, the deterring financial situation
Speaker 4: of Kathleen and then the deteriorating financial prospects of Michael
Speaker 4: Peterson in terms of being an author as a motive,
Speaker 4: tell us about what they did find out on both
Speaker 4: those fronts.
Speaker 2: Well, the couple was in serious.
Speaker 5: Credit card debt.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it was like six figures of
Speaker 2: credit card debt and the house needed some money injected
Speaker 2: into it. It was really getting to the point.
Speaker 5: That it was critical. It needed a new roof, it
Speaker 5: needed the.
Speaker 2: Bats cleared out of the attic. I mean, there were
Speaker 2: a number of things that should have been regular maintenance
Speaker 2: for a house that old, that just hadn't been done.
Speaker 5: For a few years. And and so.
Speaker 2: Also, Kathleen was putting the majority percentage of her salary
Speaker 2: back into an account that the coup but he kept
Speaker 2: of her salary.
Speaker 5: So that she was retaining it for the future. And
Speaker 5: she was the winner.
Speaker 2: I mean, kat Michael was getting a pension from his
Speaker 2: service in the military, and he was getting very of diminishing.
Speaker 5: Returns on his royalties.
Speaker 2: And yes, he did have this one potential movie deal,
Speaker 2: but you know that doesn't really pay the bills. Well,
Speaker 2: I mean, when you have an option on one of
Speaker 2: your books, they give you a small amount of money.
Speaker 5: Relative to the production cost of a film and look.
Speaker 2: Into the possibilities of making a film and writing a
Speaker 2: script and all this. Until the movie's made, you basically
Speaker 2: don't see much at all. So that wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 5: The possibility was.
Speaker 2: A big deal that it would eventually get made into movies,
Speaker 2: but most of them that her option do not, so,
Speaker 2: you know, his prospects were slimmed aon, and the three
Speaker 2: girls were in college and the two grown boys were
Speaker 2: still getting money from them, and so things were getting
Speaker 2: a bit dire, and Michael Peterson never wanted anyone to
Speaker 2: think that he didn't have the money, so he just
Speaker 2: kept bringing up.
Speaker 5: Debt and he when.
Speaker 2: What the police believe is Kathleen had found out that
Speaker 2: he had been unfaithful to her and that she had.
Speaker 5: Threatened to leave.
Speaker 2: And when she threatened to leave, that meant she was
Speaker 2: taking all her income and taking her daughter away from
Speaker 2: that house. And that meant that Michael would now have
Speaker 2: four people that were financially dependent.
Speaker 5: On him, and he would have his income just about
Speaker 5: cut off. So there was.
Speaker 2: There was greed as a big incentive for ending her life.
Speaker 4: And also he had gotten away with throwing somebody down
Speaker 4: a staircase, easily getting away with murder. Why not try
Speaker 4: it again?
Speaker 2: A crime? When you've committed a crime and you get
Speaker 2: away with it and don't pay the price, it enables
Speaker 2: you to commit that same crime again or something even worse.
Speaker 4: Now in the book, and for those people that watched
Speaker 4: the Netflix staircase, you also see somebody that was very
Speaker 4: very interesting in oj Simpson case, I thought, and he
Speaker 4: has done thousand the thousand cases doctor Henry Lee. How
Speaker 4: does doctor Henry Lee interpret this same crime scene? What
Speaker 4: does he have to say? And as you write in
Speaker 4: a book, it's very odd his again demeanor and behavior
Speaker 4: on the stand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was very clear that there was no
Speaker 2: love lost between doctor Lee and David Rudolph. It was
Speaker 2: pretty strange. I have never seen that kind of reaction
Speaker 2: between a defense attorney and their expert witness. Doctor Henry
Speaker 2: Lee said something that the nurses on the jury panel
Speaker 2: thought was particularly unintuitive, and that was that it was
Speaker 2: too much blood for a beating. Now, that doesn't even
Speaker 2: sensible by any.
Speaker 5: Stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 2: And he also did this weird fitting with watery ketchup
Speaker 2: and spitting it to show aspirated what aspirated blood spatter
Speaker 2: looks like. And it seemed as if it wasn't an
Speaker 2: accident that he got a bunch of that all over
Speaker 2: David Rudolph's suit. So, yeah, there was some antagonism there.
Speaker 2: But the one thing that he said that I thought
Speaker 2: supported Michael Peterson's guilt was that after he gave Tennis
Speaker 2: a testimony on direct about how stringing is.
Speaker 5: Not a method that's used anymore. Nobody uses that. It's ridiculous,
Speaker 5: which is what the state guy had done.
Speaker 2: The prosecutor had had him admit that, yes, he still
Speaker 2: does stringing himself. And he also said on the stand
Speaker 2: that he had reviewed Dwayne deavers of information in his
Speaker 2: reports and he said that it was clear from the
Speaker 2: photographs of the scene that there had been a point
Speaker 2: of impact in mid air that caused blood spatter. Now,
Speaker 2: the defense was trying to say that all the blood
Speaker 2: spatter came when she fell back and hit her head,
Speaker 2: But here was their own witness saying, no, it wasn't
Speaker 2: hitting her head on the wall or the steps of
Speaker 2: the rail or anything like that. There was a point
Speaker 2: of impact with an object in Kathleen's head that was
Speaker 2: mid air, And to me, that was one of the
Speaker 2: most damning pieces of evidence in the whole trial. The
Speaker 2: other piece that to me is the most damning piece
Speaker 2: of evidence were the red neurons in Kathleen's brain. Kathleen
Speaker 2: had red neurons that were found by a neurological pathologists
Speaker 2: with forensic experience. He found these red neurons, and the
Speaker 2: only time they appear in anyone's brain they've ever appeared
Speaker 2: is when someone slowly bled to death over a period
Speaker 2: of at least two and a half hours, and they're
Speaker 2: not even sure that it might be as much as
Speaker 2: three hours. She had those in her brain. That means
Speaker 2: there was a very long time between when she was
Speaker 2: injured and knocked unconscious and when she bled to death.
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson said she was in loan in the house
Speaker 2: for forty five minutes. That piece of eva evidence made
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson's story a total lie.
Speaker 4: You right too, And we just mentioned previously that the
Speaker 4: timeline is that she spoke to a Canadian colleague that
Speaker 4: you mentioned that she was going to have a meeting
Speaker 4: with on Sunday morning, and there was no evidence that
Speaker 4: she was slurred or that she was anything but her
Speaker 4: professional self at eleven pm that night, and then you're
Speaker 4: talking about two forty eight am when the ams arrived.
Speaker 4: I believe, yes, yes, very contrary to history, Oh.
Speaker 5: Very much so.
Speaker 2: And you know, and then there was another interesting piece
Speaker 2: of evidence that was not submitted in trial that I
Speaker 2: think explained some of the unanswered questions, the question or
Speaker 2: the big question is where.
Speaker 5: Was the murder weapon and what was the murder weapon.
Speaker 2: Well, here's an interesting thing about Todd Peterson. On the
Speaker 2: shoulder of the T shirt he was wearing.
Speaker 5: Or I'm not sure whether it was a T shirt
Speaker 5: or was a sports.
Speaker 2: Shirt with the collar, but anyway, in the shoulder of
Speaker 2: that shirt, there was a contact bloodstain, which meant that
Speaker 2: something that had blood on it rested on his shoulder
Speaker 2: for at least a brief time. Also, on the back
Speaker 2: of his shoe there was a perfectly round drop of
Speaker 2: Kathleen's blood, so it was clear that whatever was on
Speaker 2: his shoulder had dropped a drop of blood straight down
Speaker 2: to the back.
Speaker 5: Of his shoe. What the police believe is that he came.
Speaker 2: To the house, probably called by Michael Peterson, and saw
Speaker 2: what his father was doing trying to clean up the scene,
Speaker 2: and told him to stop, and then he is left
Speaker 2: and got rid of the murder weapon. Then he returned
Speaker 2: just as the first responders were arriving.
Speaker 4: And that would explain a lot of the behavior that
Speaker 4: Todd does trying to interfere. Initially, when the EMS and
Speaker 4: other investigators come to the home, he's trying to leave.
Speaker 4: He's trying to offer his opinion. Of course, he's very
Speaker 4: very strongly says, in my opinion, I think she was
Speaker 4: just shit faced and fell down the stairs. So he
Speaker 4: is doing everything will be consistent with somebody that has
Speaker 4: something to hide or some affiliation with the crime.
Speaker 2: Certainly, And you know, when he was told not to talk,
Speaker 2: not to talk to each other about what's going on,
Speaker 2: just sit in this room quietly, he wouldn't stop talking.
Speaker 2: He tried to talk to everybody and including his father,
Speaker 2: and he you know, he just was not listening.
Speaker 5: To the police and following instruction.
Speaker 2: He was making a major nuisance of himself.
Speaker 5: And there's a dead woman laying there. Come on, grow up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Now you chronicle this entire ordeal, especially is striking
Speaker 4: to picture because I have seen their photos of Marissa,
Speaker 4: pardon me, Martha and Margaret. The people with the most,
Speaker 4: I guess, the most to lose the most, the most,
Speaker 4: the people that lost the most, but the people that
Speaker 4: lose the most by having to realize that everybody, the
Speaker 4: people closest to them, they have to walk away or
Speaker 4: Todd was involved, their stepfather was involved. And then this
Speaker 4: incredible realization of the horror that is Michael Peterson, despite
Speaker 4: Rudolph and despite Henry Lee. What does the jury come
Speaker 4: back with with a verdict and what is what's Michael
Speaker 4: Peterson's reaction.
Speaker 2: They came back with a verdict of guilty and he
Speaker 2: was sentenced to life without parole, and.
Speaker 5: The jury.
Speaker 2: Was pretty resolute in their feelings. I talked to a
Speaker 2: number of the juries about jurors about it, and Michael Peterson.
Speaker 2: He continued to claim his innocence and he, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: told the kids that everything would be all right. But
Speaker 2: he's saying he was marched off in handcuffs and center prison.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's an incredible tale too. Kathleen's sister Candace and
Speaker 4: all of the people that are on the side of
Speaker 4: justice that want to see Michael Peterson get his due
Speaker 4: and then his fragile, damaged and family and this con
Speaker 4: man and you can see him in the dock like that.
Speaker 5: It's just.
Speaker 4: To me, he's just not a sympathetic character at all.
Speaker 4: And in the book more so of exactly less so
Speaker 4: the one sidedness of a documentary as it's limited. This
Speaker 4: book covers every single aspect of this case. What made
Speaker 4: these jurors convict him, what made people in his own
Speaker 4: family finally realize that he was a double murderer. I
Speaker 4: want to thank you very much Stean for coming on
Speaker 4: and talking about Written in Blood, a true story of
Speaker 4: murder in a sixteen year old secret that Torah found
Speaker 4: only a part. I guess people want to take a
Speaker 4: look at your other work. How do they Do you
Speaker 4: have a website? Facebook page? Tell us how about that?
Speaker 2: Yes, I've got a website. It's Dianesanning dot com and
Speaker 2: you can find all my true crime and all my
Speaker 2: fiction books on there. And my next true crime book
Speaker 2: comes out April thirtieth and it's called Death on the River. Wow.
Speaker 4: Looking forward to that. We'll have to have you back
Speaker 4: on talking about that certainly. Thank you very much, Diane.
Speaker 4: You have a great evening. Thank you once again for
Speaker 4: coming on talking about Written in Blood. It's been fascinating.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan, thank you.
Speaker 4: Good night.