WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.720 Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gaming Person. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.679 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:18.559 Five or three, two and what our folks. Welcome back 6 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.920 to the podcast. Very excited to have his make us today. 7 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:22.879 Sharon Kwan, Sharon, welcome. 8 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:25.960 Hi, Thank you so much for having me awesome. 9 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:29.000 Sharon is a co founder of Joyous PBC and the 10 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:32.320 founder of body Aware Therapy, where she works as a 11 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:37.439 psychotherapist specializing in immigrant and bipoc individuals, couples and families 12 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:43.039 cognitive psychologists. She develops successible, innovative mental health solutions while 13 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:46.479 maintaining a ground at the clinical practice focus on identity, 14 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:52.359 cultural simulation, spirituality, religious trauma, and relational dynamics. Her work 15 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.960 also centers on helping clients build boundaries, communicate effectively, and 16 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:59.600 live more authentically. All right, Sharon, just a little bit 17 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:01.799 about you before we get going. Share with the listeners 18 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:04.079 where you're from originally and where you are currently. 19 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:08.480 I was originally born in South Korea and right now 20 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:10.799 I am based in Los Angeles where I grew up. 21 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.599 Okay, all right, so let's get into this. How the 22 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:16.120 heck does this all start for you? 23 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:19.319 So it all started for me. 24 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:24.640 I went to therapy finally, and it really changed my life. 25 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:28.799 I think I grew up just feeling very different from 26 00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:32.760 my peers. And you know, my friends, they're amazing. They've 27 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:34.760 always been like, you should really try therapy. I think 28 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:37.280 it would be really helpful for you. But I always 29 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:39.799 I've just I always thought that it was for like, 30 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:42.439 rich white people. I didn't think that it could be 31 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.640 for me. I didn't think that anybody really understand the cultural. 32 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.000 Context of my trauma. 33 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:51.040 But I finally got to a point where it was 34 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.640 like rock bottom and I needed help. I think I 35 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.239 was around twenty five and I sought a Korean American 36 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:02.159 therapist and immediately just felt so seen. She was such 37 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:06.319 a kindred spirit. She really understood just all the religious 38 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:11.199 trauma that I grew up with. Is Korean's like, there's 39 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:14.599 two million Korean Americans in America. 40 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:15.960 And most of them a lot of them. 41 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.479 The biggest population of Koreans outside of Korea is in 42 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:25.599 la and sixty percent of Korean Americans identify as Christian, 43 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:29.000 and so I grew up in this tiny like it 44 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:31.919 felt like a Christian Korean bubble. It almost felt like 45 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.520 just like being raised in a cult. And my father 46 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:37.800 is a pastor, and so there was a lot of 47 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:42.080 layers of just enmeshment and wanting to please and having 48 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:46.039 a hard time just being myself. And so this therapist 49 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.439 she got it right away, and right from that moment on, 50 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.680 I stopped wanting to run away and you know, hi, 51 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:57.120 hide myself, and it became all about becoming the most 52 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.840 authentic version of myself and really living life the way 53 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:02.479 that I wanted, which I just never thought was possible. 54 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:07.719 All Right, you jumped over the whole portion of your life. 55 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:10.879 What the hell was going on. 56 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:14.080 Like growing up? 57 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:16.319 Yeah, I mean you said a couple of things that 58 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.639 really stood out to me. You felt different, You couldn't 59 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:24.800 be yourself. All the stuff going on with the enmeshment. 60 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:28.120 What what? How was all? What was it? And how 61 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:29.719 was it impacting you specifically? 62 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.960 Yeah, So, being the daughter of a pastor, there's always 63 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.840 just a lot of pressure to be a certain way. 64 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:42.159 It felt like I was sharing my life with church, 65 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:45.439 I was sharing my life with God and my parents 66 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:47.199 for my parents that was their biggest. 67 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:47.479 Purpose in life. 68 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.319 It was God was number one, and then me. You know, 69 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:55.520 it was never like me first, and so all of it. 70 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.199 Everything just became about Sundays like how can how can 71 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.120 we all show up Sunday? And church was kind of 72 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:03.840 it was an everyday thing. It was just such a 73 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:07.919 daily part of my life. And you know, when I 74 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:10.719 was little, like, yeah, I would go, I would follow. 75 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.319 I believed, because you know, kids, that's what they do. 76 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.079 They believe with their parents want them to believe. But 77 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:19.720 as I got older, I started finding myself drifting away. 78 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:22.759 I started wanting to get out of the tiny bubble 79 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.480 that they wanted to keep me in. And that brought 80 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:29.279 up a lot of shame and a lot of hiding myself, 81 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:31.000 Like I really feel like I had to kind of 82 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.519 I grew up in the closet a little bit of 83 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:37.519 not really being able to be my authentic self and 84 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:39.759 really having to compartmentalize. 85 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:43.839 All right, So you've mentioned several times your authentic self. 86 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:47.560 What what was it that you couldn't be or who 87 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:48.199 you couldn't be? 88 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.879 I honestly, I couldn't be myself. I had to be 89 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:53.879 a representative of God. You know, I had to be 90 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.240 a representative of my parents, and that was dressing a 91 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:03.959 certain way, acting a certain way, leaving certain beliefs. Yeah, 92 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:08.160 I really felt like I had no freedom to be 93 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.800 curious and make mistakes and do the things that normal 94 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:14.360 kids were doing. You know, like as a kid, I 95 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:16.560 couldn't even dress up for Halloween, you know, we couldn't. 96 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:16.959 I couldn't. 97 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:19.279 I wasn't allowed to go trigger treating until I was 98 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:22.360 old enough to go by myself. There were a lot 99 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:26.959 of restrictions, a lot of surveillance, surveillance, and just a 100 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.879 lot of what felt like it really just being in occult. 101 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:40.639 So as you're growing up, how was this impacting you symptomatically? 102 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:42.759 What's going on? If anything? 103 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.560 A lot of anxiety, you know, a lot of hypervigilance, 104 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:51.759 walking on eggshells, hiding myself. You know, I really felt 105 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.120 like I had so many different identities. I couldn't be 106 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:58.720 my who I really wanted to be around them, you know, 107 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.279 I had to hide all these parts of me. You know, 108 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:04.240 I had to hide relationships. They were very strict about 109 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:09.199 you know, boys, I couldn't. I couldn't like have any boyfriends, 110 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:10.560 like literally just friends. 111 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:14.279 Were boys there were so many normal. 112 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.800 Parts of life that I feel like had to be 113 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.399 so hidden, and it turned into me, really I got 114 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.959 really good at lying, so much so that I feel 115 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:28.480 like I was just constantly lying to myself and I 116 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:32.600 really just created a world that in a sense of 117 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:34.720 self and identity that I didn't want. 118 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.480 I wanted to just be able to be open and free. 119 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.759 But yeah, I always had this like heightened anxiety because 120 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:43.439 there was always going to be something to hide. 121 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:48.240 Mm hmmm, So how do things unfold as you're growing up? 122 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:49.319 Getting into school? 123 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.120 School became a big source of It was a big 124 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:57.480 outlet for me because I knew that was one way 125 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.720 that I could earn my freedom, that was something that 126 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:05.519 was parent approved. You know, Koreans really stress education and academics, 127 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:09.839 and so I was like, well, I can't be that 128 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:12.560 Christian daughter for them, which you know, I kept a 129 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:14.560 secret the whole time. I was just I was acting 130 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:18.480 like I believed, going to church, going through all the motions. 131 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:23.439 But so but I knew, like deep down, that was 132 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.279 not something that was in my heart, like you know, 133 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:27.480 that was something that I was faking for them. But 134 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.759 with education, I knew that that was something that they 135 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.160 could be proud of that I could also get along with. 136 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.519 And so I really poured my all into it. I 137 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:38.600 was very much a high achiever, very much just wanting 138 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:42.079 to get into the best and furthest school from them 139 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.480 so that I could finally be free and so and 140 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:48.279 that's what I did. So I ended up going to 141 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:50.639 school in Chicago. I was like, I have to put 142 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:54.120 at least a plane distance between us. And that's when 143 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:55.759 I really feel like my life started. 144 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:59.639 Wow, Okay, so what happened. 145 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.639 I got to be who I am, I got to 146 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.720 be free, I got to dress how I want, I 147 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:09.240 got to be who I want. 148 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.439 It was so cathartic and such a. 149 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:17.439 Release to not have to be so hyper vigilant and 150 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:20.959 walking on eggshells all the time and kind of like 151 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.560 like living life with you know, looking behind my shoulder. 152 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:31.000 It was truly just so life changing and like I said, 153 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:32.600 just the start of a new me. 154 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.679 Really was it impacting your physical health? 155 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:43.559 I mean I think in terms of like the anxiety, Yeah, 156 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:49.600 like panic attacks for sure, you know a lot of 157 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.840 just every mistake was such a big one, you know, 158 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.279 and it's like I can't even I can't get anything 159 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.559 less than an a you know, it was very very stressful. 160 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.960 In that respect, it sounds very stressful. So you get 161 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.080 to Chicago, your life changes, you can be yourself. At 162 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.559 what point did you see that therapist who was just like, 163 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:10.559 sounds amazing. 164 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:15.799 Honestly, it was after It was after colleges, when I 165 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:19.919 was around twenty five. It took a while because even 166 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.840 then I think I was still kind of just avoiding trying, 167 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:24.480 and I was like, this is a new chapter. 168 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:25.360 I'm away from them. 169 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.399 I can just be myself, you know, I can do 170 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:29.240 all the things that I wanted to do that I couldn't. 171 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:34.000 So it was a lot of just being. I think 172 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.720 I got a lot out of a lot of healing 173 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.639 out of that. But then I got into a really 174 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.480 bad car accident, you know, a taxi ran over a 175 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.279 red light and hit another taxi that ran into me 176 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:49.080 and sent me through the liquor store behind me. I was, yeah, 177 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:53.799 it was very bad, and I was in the hot 178 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.039 I see you for a couple of weeks. I had 179 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:57.000 to get surgery. 180 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:57.399 Under my eye. 181 00:09:58.399 --> 00:09:59.320 Was this in Chicago? 182 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:00.840 Yeah, it was in Chicago. 183 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.840 And it's interesting because yes, that is the most traumatic, 184 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:09.559 clearly the most traumatic event in my life. When I 185 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.960 think back of all the things that have happened, but 186 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:15.639 I feel like the complex trauma that I endured living 187 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.639 with my parents was so much worse. Like if I could, 188 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.120 if I compared the two, I would much rather get 189 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.480 hit by a car than like have to relive the 190 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:26.639 first eighteen years of my life like it was. 191 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:27.879 It's interesting how. 192 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:34.200 Trauma talking about like psychological emotional some might say abuse. 193 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:40.120 Mm hmm, yeah, I mean it feels very restrictive and oppressive. Yes, 194 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.600 at what point did you seek help? 195 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:49.440 So I ended up going back to Korea actually and 196 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.440 reconnected with my family there, and that was the first 197 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.480 time I was really able to experience being a Korean 198 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.320 without the religious piece, because Korea is actually kind of 199 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.399 the opposite. It's more like sixty percent of people over 200 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.519 there are non religious compared to in America where sixty 201 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:09.720 percent are and my family they're not Christian, and so 202 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:14.559 I got to re examine this cultural lens without a 203 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:17.759 Christian lens, and that was really life changing for me. 204 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:21.120 And now I love being Korean. I didn't before. I 205 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:21.879 used to hate it. 206 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:23.840 I used to feel like all Koreans are Christian and 207 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:27.360 they're going to evangelize me and judge me. But I've 208 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:30.879 come a long way with that. And so after I 209 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.080 lived with them for a bit, I came back to 210 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.039 the States because I got a big settlement from that 211 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.799 taxi cab and I wanted to buy a house and 212 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.399 I was staying with my parents while I was looking 213 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:49.720 for a place, and things just really escalated. I think 214 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:53.320 at that point it was just really hard to keep 215 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:58.320 up with all the compartmentalization and the separate identities because 216 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.279 there was such a big part of me that just 217 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.279 was like, oh, I just want to be able to 218 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.600 be myself, Like I don't want to have to hide 219 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.159 this anymore. Like I hate that I have to hide 220 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.919 my tattoos around them, you know, I was wearing sweaters 221 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.879 around them in California. I hate that on Sundays I 222 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:15.960 have to like go to church and pretend that I. 223 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:16.559 Believe in this. 224 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:23.360 And we got into a lot of fights and I 225 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:26.799 actually I did. And yeah, so we got into a 226 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.200 few fights, and I got to a point where I 227 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.679 because with my dad is it's always just been a 228 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:35.080 very difficult relationship. 229 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.960 You know, he's a pastor and. 230 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:39.360 He you know this is this is the way, and 231 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.159 you know, as in a very patriarchal culture. 232 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:44.559 You're supposed to just respect him. 233 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.759 And but I always had a hard time with that. 234 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.720 And yeah, we got into a really big fight that 235 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.440 finally caused me to seek therapy and reach out to 236 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.200 a Korean American therapist. And kind of right away that 237 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:03.600 first Consule we talked, I cried, and she was just like, 238 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.360 just come, just come to my office, let's let's talk. 239 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:11.679 And yeah, the rest is history. I never I never 240 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:12.519 looked back since then. 241 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:16.159 Now, what were you doing for work during that time? 242 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:20.200 I was not living my best life. 243 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:23.399 Honestly, I was kind of I was waiting around for 244 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:28.360 my settlement money and I was managing social media. It 245 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:30.320 was a job that I found in New York. It 246 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:32.720 was remote and so it allowed me to travel and 247 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:35.600 that's how I got to go to Korea and travel 248 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.440 around Southeast Asia and do a bunch of remote work. 249 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:39.799 That way. 250 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:42.799 You said you were not living your best life? 251 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.480 No, No, I mean I guess they could argue that 252 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:51.080 I kind of was. Okay, I wasn't living my I think, 253 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:55.159 up to my best potential, Like I wasn't self actualizing 254 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:56.759 at that point. 255 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.879 Okay, So how do things unfold such that you do 256 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.000 start to live your best life? You do say I'm 257 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:06.080 want to start. I want to get into what psychology, 258 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.159 become a therapist. How does that happen for you? 259 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.519 So yeah, I feel like, up until then, my life 260 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.480 was all about running away, running away from my parents, 261 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:22.279 running away from this just bubble that they kept wanting 262 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:27.159 to keep me in. And when I first tried therapy, 263 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.360 I loved it and I was like, oh, I feel 264 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:31.960 like I can do this because people have been telling 265 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.240 me their problems my entire life, and you know, unsolicited, 266 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.320 and so I was like, oh wow, there's like a 267 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.519 way to make a living off of this. This is crazy, 268 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.559 and so I kind of I started looking into programs 269 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.120 and I found this like cultural psychology program in Amsterdam, 270 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.879 and I told my therapist my plan. I was like, Okay, 271 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:54.200 I'm going to do this program. I'm going to buy 272 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.480 an apartment here, I'm going to rent it out. I'm 273 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.360 going to go to Amsterdam and then I'm going to 274 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.039 come back. But I'm I'm not going to tell my parents. 275 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.600 I'm going to pretend that I'm still living abroad and 276 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.120 just come back secretly and like start my life here 277 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:12.279 without them knowing, because it's just still felt so unimaginable 278 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:16.519 being able to like live in la right next to 279 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:18.399 them and not go to church. 280 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.919 And she kind of right away was. 281 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:24.639 Like, hm, so you say you want to work with 282 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:29.200 Asian Americans, but you want to do this program in Amsterdam. 283 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.000 You know, I don't like, I don't know how the 284 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.559 credits are going to transfer, Like it doesn't really make 285 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.519 that much sense, Like what what is your rationale around this? 286 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.120 And I was just like, you're right, it doesn't. 287 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.720 Like here, I am just like doing all these mental 288 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:47.399 gymnastics and physical gymnastics to avoid this problem that I 289 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:51.320 just can't seem to figure out how to address and 290 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:55.639 like can't seem to figure out like a happy. 291 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:56.399 Answer for both of us. 292 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:02.480 And but it really bothered me to be confronted with, Wow, 293 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:04.759 I'm just making my life so much. 294 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.679 Harder because of this, and so. 295 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:11.960 Like, having been confronted with that, I was like, oh, 296 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:15.200 you know what, You're right, I'm gonna take the harder 297 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.840 route now so that my. 298 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:19.279 Life can be easier later. 299 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:26.039 And she actually she finally helped me, like especially come 300 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.360 out to my parents and tell them, you know, I'm 301 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:31.840 not a Christian. I don't go to church anymore, and 302 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.080 so that I could just honestly and authentically be here 303 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:42.039 and like fully commit to just being here and go 304 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:45.279 to grad school here in LA and become a therapist here. 305 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:48.480 And you know, my dad he was not pit he 306 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:50.519 was he was not happy about it. You know, he's 307 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.519 still not happy about it, and my mom either, But she, 308 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:55.960 my mom actually did show me some of you know, 309 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.559 God's grace. She told me that she would still love 310 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.679 me anyway and thought it was okay, and that really 311 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:03.360 set me free. 312 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.559 Just wow, hang on a second, Sharon, that sounds amazing. 313 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.440 I mean, I can't imagine you're painting this picture of 314 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:23.160 again just such oppression, right and restriction and this inability 315 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.200 to just just be yourself, and here you are finally 316 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:33.319 able to, like you said, come out to your parents. 317 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.960 How did you muster up the courage to do that? 318 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:38.240 It was really hard. 319 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.599 How did you do that? How did you do with 320 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.440 that in person? Over the phone? 321 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:47.480 It was in person. It was one of the hardest 322 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:51.279 things that I've ever had to do. And I honestly, 323 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:53.440 I don't even know if I like did it in person. 324 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:55.839 I don't even know if I did it with my dad, 325 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.279 Like I feel like for so long, I've kind of 326 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.279 communicated with him through my mom because she is definitely 327 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:07.559 the less intense one. And so I remember just with 328 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.640 my mom that conversation. You know, I cried because she's 329 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:15.039 also the breadwinner of our family, and she's worked her 330 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:15.680 entire life. 331 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.279 She's a nurse, she works very hard, and so. 332 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:21.799 I think I felt so much guilt about letting her 333 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.359 down because this is the one thing she wanted for me. 334 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:26.960 You know, she didn't ask for anything else, just one, 335 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:29.559 which was my spiritual freedom, which is kind of a lot, 336 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:31.680 but you know, for her, it was just like this 337 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:32.880 one one thing. 338 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:34.359 And I told her this. 339 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.799 I was like, you know, I have I feel so 340 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.599 guilty about this, and she was like, you know, that's 341 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.400 that's something that only God can solve for you. And 342 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.160 I was like, no, no, I don't feel guilty towards God, 343 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:49.640 like I feel guilty towards you. 344 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:51.319 I feel so. 345 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.839 Bad for letting you down that like I can't do 346 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:57.920 this for you, and something in her just like opened. 347 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:00.640 I don't know, I think that really hit home for her. 348 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.720 But she was just like, you know what, don't worry, 349 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.920 like if it's about me, like you don't have to 350 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.200 feel guilty, like you don't have to go, It's okay. 351 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:11.920 I'll love you anyway. 352 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:18.599 And yeah, that was just such a beautiful moment. You know, 353 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:23.119 my mom and I, she she she was always working. 354 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:27.440 We didn't really spend that much time together. And I 355 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:31.160 think just affection with Asian parents. 356 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.319 Is it's they don't really say it explicitly they say. 357 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.440 They show it more so in their actions and you know, 358 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.559 in providing and caring for you and so to actually 359 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.039 have that in words like oh, I it's okay, I'll 360 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.920 still love you anyway, it was. Yeah, it was really 361 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.240 big for me, and I think it really just gave 362 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.480 me permission to just be myself and be okay with it. 363 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:01.359 That's amazing. I can feel the relief in the room. Really. 364 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:07.319 All Right. So you what, you start studying in LA 365 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.720 to become a therapist, okay, and when you get into 366 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:14.799 your program, what are you thinking, if any, are you 367 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.920 thinking about a particular specialty or what you want to 368 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:19.359 work on or who you want to work with? 369 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.519 Yeah, I mean I really want to work I really 370 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:25.880 wanted to work with Asian Americans. You know, there's so 371 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.759 many in Los Angeles that struggle. 372 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.759 With these cultural dynamics with parents. 373 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.759 Oftentimes they come from very collective cultures where family is first. 374 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:39.960 There's a lot of filial piety, there's a lot of 375 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:43.319 guilt and shame if you don't do what the family wants. 376 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.359 And so I really wanted to help people kind of 377 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.000 figure out a life that works with them, where they 378 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:54.839 can balance these different ideals cultural and individualistic. And then 379 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:58.640 I also really wanted to work with specifically folks who 380 00:20:58.680 --> 00:20:59.960 have experienced religious trauma. 381 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:05.079 M all right, so let me just remind everyone was 382 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:09.839 speaking with Shower and Kwan, co founder of Joyous PBC 383 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.000 and the founder of Body Aware Therapy. So let's talk 384 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:17.680 specifically about the work you do, who you're working with, 385 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:23.359 how you're doing that work, and even before that, how 386 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:25.200 did you get to this point where, all right, I 387 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.759 want to start my own thing, my own company or whatever. 388 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:35.240 I mean, it was just all the healing that I 389 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.279 had done, and I think, I mean, I always wanted 390 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.519 to just work for myself. I've you know, in my training, 391 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:47.000 I've obviously I've worked with a lot of people. I 392 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:52.599 worked at another therapy group, Yellow Chair Collective, where we 393 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:58.839 worked where they specifically served Asian American communities and did 394 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:02.839 a lot of intern ships with you know that focused 395 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.200 on Asian populations, and so when I started, you know, 396 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:08.680 my private practice, I really wanted to. 397 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.440 Kind of bridge both worlds. 398 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.759 And that's kind of how Body of Wear therapy happened, 399 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:20.039 where you know, Eastern philosophy meets this Western psychology, and 400 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.279 I really wanted to kind of bridge both worlds. 401 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:28.960