Speaker 1: Okay, we're live.
Speaker 2: How does William Ramsey Welcome to William Ramsey investigates on
Speaker 2: today's show of a very special guest, a returning guest.
Speaker 2: His name is john Ney, and we've talked twice in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. The first time was about a book
Speaker 2: he rais written many books this one. The first one
Speaker 2: was The Next Great Reformation ninety six, theces for Reclaiming
Speaker 2: Jesus's Everlasting Kingdom. And then we talked about a book
Speaker 2: he published this year as well, and it's about his
Speaker 2: kind of experience in the movie industry and about Joseph
Speaker 2: as somebody who I'm interested in as well. And that
Speaker 2: title of that book was seventy a D. I think
Speaker 2: it was published in April twenty twenty one, and we
Speaker 2: talked about the book in June twenty twenty one. And
Speaker 2: so a list of some of his other books are
Speaker 2: Perfect Ending for the World twenty eleven, A Greater Jesus
Speaker 2: twenty twelve, Off Target eighteen, Bulls Eyes Exposed twenty twelve,
Speaker 2: Unraveling the End twenty fourteen, and Hell Yes, Hell No
Speaker 2: published twenty fifteen, and Once Mighty Faith twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: His website is www. Prophecy refi dot org. So it's
Speaker 1: prophecy r e f i dot org. You also has
Speaker 1: a YouTube channel titled Greater Than We Believe.
Speaker 2: And uh, I think it's a very timely subject, this
Speaker 2: creation of evil and what it is. It's a real
Speaker 2: it's definitely kind of like a stumbling block for people
Speaker 2: when they look at certain religions, particularly Christianity.
Speaker 1: But John can talk more about that show. John Noy,
Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Thanks for coming back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: William going to be with you once again, even for
Speaker 1: the second time today. Huh right, it feels like aw
Speaker 1: all over again.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let your audience in on a little secret here. Okay,
Speaker 1: we already did the opening of this for about ten
Speaker 1: or twelve minutes, and because of the nature of what
Speaker 1: we're doing, somebody cut us off. That's right. There was
Speaker 1: definitely some form of interloper. Now I'm not gonna say
Speaker 1: it was evil, but and by the way, I am
Speaker 1: not an expert on evil. Now, I've read a lot
Speaker 1: about evil, I've written about evil, but I have not
Speaker 1: experienced a lot of evil, So I can't say that
Speaker 1: cutting us off after the first twelve minutes of our
Speaker 1: interview earlier today was an evil thing, but it could
Speaker 1: have been.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's an important way to look at it.
Speaker 2: Is what is the definition of evil? We talked in
Speaker 2: our earlier conversation that that's the finish of the Lord's
Speaker 2: prayer is delivers from evil. But how do you define evil?
Speaker 2: Is evil different? Is there an external understanding that everybody
Speaker 2: can agree to or is it a subjective kind of definition?
Speaker 1: What do you think? How about the opposite of God's love?
Speaker 1: How about this? I mean, you know, we could we
Speaker 1: could get into all sorts of esoteric kind of discussions
Speaker 1: on that, but I'm going to suggest we start at
Speaker 1: the beginning. Okay, good, How does that sound for you?
Speaker 1: Sounds great? And the best way I have found William
Speaker 1: to get involved in a serious subject like this, and
Speaker 1: even a depressing subject like this for some people, is
Speaker 1: with a little humor. So what do you say we
Speaker 1: do it that way? Okay? Can you see this cartoon? Yes?
Speaker 1: You can? Your viewers see that? Am I holding it
Speaker 1: right now?
Speaker 2: I think You've got it just right. That's perfect right there.
Speaker 2: That's in your book, that's in the intro at your book.
Speaker 1: It is and it's a picture of a guy going
Speaker 1: up to a information booth in a shopping mall and
Speaker 1: the lady is sitting behind it, and he asks her
Speaker 1: this question. He says, if God is all knowing and
Speaker 1: all good and all powerful, why does he allow evil?
Speaker 1: And her response and the response is or the caption
Speaker 1: now below it in the bottom says, improper use of
Speaker 1: shopping mall information booth. Now, when we did this the
Speaker 1: first time, you laughed. Still interest, it's still amusing. Still.
Speaker 1: You know, when you hear a joke for the second time,
Speaker 1: you usually don't laugh, right right, So, so that's kind
Speaker 1: of typical.
Speaker 2: But this joke, I mean, it's kind of a very
Speaker 2: He hits her with a very profound philosophical question.
Speaker 1: Is why is that? And yes, I.
Speaker 2: Mean sometimes that people could give her that blank stare
Speaker 2: right back right, Well.
Speaker 1: No kidd, no kidd. So uh so that's fast forward here.
Speaker 1: And do you do you have any idea who most
Speaker 1: people are? Are are who most people would how most
Speaker 1: people would answer when you ask him the question, well,
Speaker 1: who's responsible for evil? Who created evil? I mean, how
Speaker 1: come we have all this evil on planet Earth? And
Speaker 1: you know, how can we turn on TV and we
Speaker 1: see all this evil? I mean, who put it here
Speaker 1: in the first place? Who do you who do you
Speaker 1: think would be most people would say would be responsible
Speaker 1: for that? Human beings? Yes, that that that's the number
Speaker 1: one culprit in the literature. Most authors have written on
Speaker 1: this and so forth ascribe the existence, our presence, our
Speaker 1: creation of evil to human free will. And it goes
Speaker 1: all the way back to Adam and Eve, you know,
Speaker 1: in the opening chapter chapters of the Bible, in Genesis two,
Speaker 1: when Adam and e Eve disobeyed God and ate the apple,
Speaker 1: and then all hell broke loose, you know on planet Earth. Now,
Speaker 1: what do you think the fall call what we call
Speaker 1: the fall? Right? They say, that's the creation of evil. Well,
Speaker 1: that's not the creation of evil. What do you think
Speaker 1: the second most popular culprit for being the originator of evil?
Speaker 1: The devil? The evil? The devil? Right, absolutely, and and
Speaker 1: and demonic angels and all all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: And it kind of goes back to I've called Wilson theology,
Speaker 1: you know, member Flip Wilson and his famous saying the
Speaker 1: devil made me do it.
Speaker 2: I used to say that much more. Now that I'm older,
Speaker 2: you don't hear that much more. But well, it was
Speaker 2: much more longer.
Speaker 1: Than the seventies and eighties. Yeah, Flip Wilson is no
Speaker 1: longer on TV. That's that one reason why. Now, the
Speaker 1: third culprit that in the literature for being the origin
Speaker 1: or the creation of evil is something that not very
Speaker 1: many people know about, and it's it's very minor as
Speaker 1: far as the volume that ascribed to this, to this
Speaker 1: third source. But it's called pre creation chaos. In other words,
Speaker 1: that theory, and it is a theory. That theory is
Speaker 1: that before God created, all that is there existed, believe
Speaker 1: it or not, evil forces in the creation stratosphere or
Speaker 1: whatever you might call it, whatever that is. Nobody knows
Speaker 1: really what it is or can define it. But it's
Speaker 1: just a just a theory. The fourth culprit, however, is
Speaker 1: kind of mysterious, and that fourth culprit is it's a mystery.
Speaker 1: It's a mystery. And in fact, Timothy Keller, a very
Speaker 1: well known Christian author and pastor and so fourth in
Speaker 1: his book Walking with God Through Pain and Suffering, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna quote him here, he said this. He said, evil
Speaker 1: is neither simply the result of flawed individuals, that would
Speaker 1: be the free will source, nor merely a single powerful
Speaker 1: being like the devil, which was a number two culprit
Speaker 1: if you remember. He says, it stems from both as
Speaker 1: well as from the effects of a corrupt created order,
Speaker 1: and ultimately we can't see all the roots and sources
Speaker 1: of evil. It is a mystery. Well, how are you
Speaker 1: going to deal with a mystery? I don't know.
Speaker 2: If you can't define something, then you how it makes
Speaker 2: it a lot harder to deal with.
Speaker 1: I would say, that's right, you got that right, So
Speaker 1: let's deal with it anyway. Okay, that's right. Let's do
Speaker 1: it very important. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna present a proposition to you and see what see
Speaker 1: what you think about this? Okay, here's my it's it's
Speaker 1: it's what you might call a theological proposition. Here it is.
Speaker 1: You ready? Yes? See? If you agree, you tell me
Speaker 1: agree or disagree? All right? Okay? No evil, no Christianity agree. Agreed.
Speaker 1: Without evil, there would have been no need for progression
Speaker 1: of covenants or grounds or the law and the prophets
Speaker 1: throughout the Old Testament. Without evil, no reason for Israel
Speaker 1: or its animal sacrifice, blood temple system. Agreed, Man, You're
Speaker 1: easy to get along with I know, I just say, okay,
Speaker 1: we're not done yet. Okay, you still with me? Without
Speaker 1: without evil, no rationale for sending the christ right agreed correct,
Speaker 1: No reason for him to lower himself or to be
Speaker 1: crucified on across right, right agreed, without evil, no basis
Speaker 1: for redemption or resurrection without evil, no purpose in pouring
Speaker 1: out the Holy Spirit. Probably yeah, yeah, absolutely, And here
Speaker 1: here's my last one. Without evil. No churches agreed, no past,
Speaker 1: no Bible, no Gospel, no Christians.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's an it's an essential part of
Speaker 2: the whole story of humanity from the beginning, from the past.
Speaker 2: That's it's an essential part.
Speaker 1: That's real. Critical in identifying the proper origin and creation
Speaker 1: of evil is that recognition that that that you've you've
Speaker 1: verified for me of who, of who, of why it's
Speaker 1: essential and what made it essential? In other words, no evil,
Speaker 1: no Christianity, there's some all that up now. Few in
Speaker 1: Christian history, William have seriously contemplated this possibility of the
Speaker 1: interconnectionness of evil as being a necessity for Christianity. Few,
Speaker 1: I know, I've done, I've done the research on this,
Speaker 1: or recognize this condundrum and That is why theologians and
Speaker 1: philosophers and pastors and even atheists alike have traditionally been
Speaker 1: accustomed to referring to and treating evil as the problem
Speaker 1: of evil, as opposed to the necessity. Very important distinction, Yes,
Speaker 1: very important distinction. Uh. And one scholar, another scholar, this
Speaker 1: happens to be Gregory Gasolet in a book. In a
Speaker 1: book titled God and Evil, The Case for God in
Speaker 1: the World Filled with Pain, he writes this. He said,
Speaker 1: Christianity requires there to be evil. If no evil existed,
Speaker 1: we would know that Christianity is false. Furthermore, Christianity requires
Speaker 1: a great deal more than a superficial amount of evil.
Speaker 1: If evil had to be, evil had to be so
Speaker 1: significant that the highest sacrifice is warranted. What are you
Speaker 1: looking at that Christianity? This is the last sentence in
Speaker 1: this quote. Christianity is a story of God entering the
Speaker 1: world and paying the highest price price to deal with
Speaker 1: the root of evil. In other words, no Christianity or
Speaker 1: no evil, no Christianity.
Speaker 2: Think that they're oppositional. The Christianity is supposed to solve
Speaker 2: the issues of evil.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. So in this book, that little
Speaker 1: shameless promotion here in color, in color, much better, a
Speaker 1: little bit of color. My twofold focus, William, was to
Speaker 1: number one, dispel faulty beliefs, which we've begun to do
Speaker 1: so far, and number two, to cast better light on
Speaker 1: this whole idea of a mystery of evil and realize
Speaker 1: that it is not a mystery. What it is isn't essential.
Speaker 1: Huge difference, huge, huge difference. Okay, so you want to
Speaker 1: get into it a little bit, Yes, let's do it,
Speaker 1: all right, let's fast forward here. Gordon Spikeman, who was
Speaker 1: one of the theologians whose textbook The Reformational Theology of
Speaker 1: Paradigm for Doing Dogmatics was one of my required text
Speaker 1: in my doctoral program, wrote this. He says, if we
Speaker 1: get first things wrong, last things will also turn out wrong.
Speaker 1: Well wise, we're going to see here we've gotten first
Speaker 1: things really wrong. And what we're not going to see
Speaker 1: here because we don't have time to get into it,
Speaker 1: but which I've written a number of other books on,
Speaker 1: is we've also got last things really wrong too, And
Speaker 1: the primary reason is because we've gotten first things wrong. Gotcha?
Speaker 1: So all right? So where did evil come from in
Speaker 1: the first place? N? T. Wright, the very famous theologian
Speaker 1: maintains that the origin of evil itself remains a mystery.
Speaker 1: See he's still hung up in that mystery stuff. But
Speaker 1: the biblically correct answer and the sole solution for the
Speaker 1: problem of evil is this, first and foremost, evil was
Speaker 1: put on this planet by who do you think? The creator? God?
Speaker 1: First and foremost, He did this before, before the creation
Speaker 1: of Adam and Eve. He he placed evil on this
Speaker 1: planet before the fall. And the number one culprit, as
Speaker 1: we previously talked about people describing to the as the
Speaker 1: origin of evil is human free will, Well, he placed
Speaker 1: evil on this planet before, before the fall, before Adam
Speaker 1: and Eve were even created. The Bible clearly tells us
Speaker 1: that in Genesis chapter one, you know, like in the beginning,
Speaker 1: God created the heavens and the earth, right, okay, And
Speaker 1: on the third day of Creation week, God created all
Speaker 1: the seed bearing plants and trees on the third day
Speaker 1: of creation week, and he saw that that was good.
Speaker 1: And then in Genesis two eight, a small portion of
Speaker 1: that original creation was was a part of the what
Speaker 1: we what we what he now called the garden of
Speaker 1: Eden on that planet, right, And one of the trees
Speaker 1: in that garden which was created on the third day
Speaker 1: of Creation week, and in the middle of that garden
Speaker 1: was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil? Right,
Speaker 1: So it's right there there it is who put that
Speaker 1: tree there, God, the Creator. God did not not Adam
Speaker 1: and Eve were even created yet, were they? Nope?
Speaker 2: Not in, not in, not to hear it, not till
Speaker 2: the seventh to day.
Speaker 1: Right, uh, sixth day, sixth Sorry, I shouldn't know that, okay, okay. So,
Speaker 1: so certainly it was not human free will to put
Speaker 1: it there, and certainly it was not the devil who
Speaker 1: put it there, right, and certainly was not It's not
Speaker 1: a mystery who put it there? I mean, it was
Speaker 1: God to put it there. Can we agree with that
Speaker 1: from a scriptural biblical yes? Okay? So who placed Adam
Speaker 1: and Eve in the guard next to that where that
Speaker 1: tree was located? God? God who gave them permission to
Speaker 1: eat from all of the other trees. God who placed
Speaker 1: the prohibition of not eating from the Tree of the
Speaker 1: Knowledge of Good and evil on Adam and Eve. God
Speaker 1: who turned the devil or Satan into a serpent and
Speaker 1: put him in the garden with them. God, that's right,
Speaker 1: And who gave them access or who gave him access
Speaker 1: to Adam and Eve to tempt him? God? That's right.
Speaker 1: And God could have cast Satan to a number of
Speaker 1: other places after he threw him out of heaven, right
Speaker 1: he and his cohorts? I mean, he could have thrown
Speaker 1: him to uh oh what Plutou or the moon, or
Speaker 1: to the other side of the earth, or to Uranus
Speaker 1: or a number of places. Right. Who gave Adam and
Speaker 1: Eve access to the Tree of the Knowledge of good
Speaker 1: and evil? God, so they would have the opportunity to
Speaker 1: disobey him? Yes, that's right God. Now God could have
Speaker 1: put an angel, you know, with with with with a
Speaker 1: flaming sword, flashing back and forth around that tree to
Speaker 1: protect it, so they couldn't have gotten to it, couldn't
Speaker 1: he which he would use an angel later on to
Speaker 1: do that to keep mo out of the garden of meeting.
Speaker 1: Or more simply, he could have never planted that tree
Speaker 1: there in the first place. Right, So in a court
Speaker 1: of law, William, we would call that culpability, would we not? Yes?
Speaker 1: And and if if if it was, you know, if
Speaker 1: that was being judged by a jury, he'd be gilly
Speaker 1: right correct? Okay, So he also created Adam and Eve.
Speaker 1: See if you agree with this or not agree with
Speaker 1: the capacity to be susceptible to tradition to you mean temptation? Yes, yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: Now he could have created things differently, couldn't he, so
Speaker 1: that they would never have had been succumbed to that temptation?
Speaker 1: Or or he could have turned the other cheek and
Speaker 1: just kind of ignored it and fluffed it off. Right, agreed, Yes,
Speaker 1: but he didn't did it? So, But but if he
Speaker 1: could have made it, he could have made this whole
Speaker 1: world creation free of evil and free of sin and
Speaker 1: free of suffering. Right, and a lot of Christians believe
Speaker 1: that someday that's what he's going to do, is make
Speaker 1: this whole whole planet new again and not have any
Speaker 1: evil or sin or suffering in it whatsoever. Well, why
Speaker 1: did he do that in the first place? Right? Huh right?
Speaker 1: Good question? Yeah? Yeah, how about that being a good question? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So who is responsible for the creation of evil on
Speaker 1: this planet? God? There you go? Yeah, the creation of you?
Speaker 1: Not not human free will, that's not that thought. Who's responsible?
Speaker 1: We we can't create anything, you know, not not the devil.
Speaker 1: Devil's not responsible for that. He can't create anything. And
Speaker 1: it's certainly uh not uh uh you know, pre existence,
Speaker 1: chaos or anything like that. And it's certainly not a mystery.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's plain to see. God created the tree
Speaker 1: of the notche, of good and evil, and and and
Speaker 1: and the whole circumstances there for everything to transpire. Now
Speaker 1: you want to know something even more uh, indicting and
Speaker 1: culpable than even that. Yes, you sure you can have
Speaker 1: already I'm sitting there. I mean, I mean, you're not
Speaker 1: ready to shut me down yet, are you. No, But
Speaker 1: we're past the twenty one minute mark, so we're in
Speaker 1: good shape. Okay, all right, all right, let me ask
Speaker 1: you this, when was Christ slain?
Speaker 2: Well there's a little variation, but it's eighty thirty or
Speaker 2: eighty thirty three.
Speaker 1: Well, there's more variation than that. Worse what Oh well,
Speaker 1: now you're getting like, yes, right, come on, people, I
Speaker 1: mean before the creation of the world, right now, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: you know where that's you know where that is? No,
Speaker 1: where is that? It's in the Bible, in the Bible,
Speaker 1: right you know where it is in the Bible. No Revelation,
Speaker 1: Chapter thirteen, verse eight. Now, the Bible is a progression
Speaker 1: of Revelation. You know, we start within the beginning. God
Speaker 1: created the heavens and the earth right, and we progress
Speaker 1: all the way up and God throughout that Bible. As
Speaker 1: you progress from the Old Town, through the Old Testament
Speaker 1: and up into the New Testament, and through the New
Speaker 1: Testament up in the Book of Revelation, God progressively reveals
Speaker 1: more and more and more and more and more. Right,
Speaker 1: it's called progressive revelation. And so in Revelation thirteen eight
Speaker 1: he reveals through the Angel there that that God, that
Speaker 1: Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world, So
Speaker 1: even before the tree of the knowledge of good and
Speaker 1: evil was placed in the physical cosmos creation, Christ was slain.
Speaker 1: In other words, that God had had all planned and
Speaker 1: locked in place. So no christian no no evil, no Christianity.
Speaker 1: Jesus explained prior to that, and it was all locked
Speaker 1: and fixed in place. Now does that? Does that? Does
Speaker 1: that blow blow you away? Just realizing that? I think so.
Speaker 2: I think it's very much of a difference, like free
Speaker 2: will or something. It really goes back to the foundation,
Speaker 2: the garden trieve the knowledge of good and evil.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now you want you want some more? That will
Speaker 1: even blow you away even more about some of our listeners.
Speaker 1: And you ready, I'm I'm wall I'm not making this
Speaker 1: stuff up. I mean this is scripture, scripture. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, anybody could have read this. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not me just coming out with something new. All right,
Speaker 1: as asked to get to more proof. All right, here
Speaker 1: we go, all right, by by by by by b
Speaker 1: up Isaiah. Now this is part of the progressive revelation,
Speaker 1: right Old Testament, Isaiah the prophet. In Isaiah forty five seven,
Speaker 1: God is talking to Isaiah. And here's what God reveals
Speaker 1: to him. I form the light and create darkness. I
Speaker 1: make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all
Speaker 1: these things. Isaiah forty five seven, King James version. So
Speaker 1: not only did God create evil in the first place,
Speaker 1: but even in the Old Testament he says he keeps
Speaker 1: creating evil that he doesn't now. The Hebrew word translated
Speaker 1: as evil there in Isaiah forty five is the Hebrew
Speaker 1: word raw r a, and it comes from the Hebrew
Speaker 1: verb raw awe, meaning to spoil. Some versions of the Bible,
Speaker 1: like the NIV, for example, in the NAS they don't
Speaker 1: translate that word raw as evil. They translate. They try
Speaker 1: to soften it, you know, they try to distance God
Speaker 1: from from further creation of evil by translating it as
Speaker 1: disasters or calamity. But that word raw, there is the
Speaker 1: same word that's used back in Genesis when when God
Speaker 1: created the tree of the knowledge of good and raw.
Speaker 1: It's the same word. And no version of the Bible
Speaker 1: translates that that I know of in Genesis the word
Speaker 1: raw as disasters are calamities. And that that word raw
Speaker 1: is used some oh numerous let's see if I can't
Speaker 1: even remember how many times, some five hundred raw is
Speaker 1: used in some five hundred verses throughout the Old Testament,
Speaker 1: and in a consistently applied manner. And that's that word
Speaker 1: translated as the creation of the good and evil, that something.
Speaker 1: And in this book I have about eleven pages, eleven pages,
Speaker 1: if I can find these things real quick here for you, O.
Speaker 1: Here they are about ten or eleven pages listed of
Speaker 1: some of those see that of some of those five
Speaker 1: hundred places in Genesis and Exodus and Leviticus, in Deuteronomy,
Speaker 1: and Joshua and Samuel first and second, in Kings, first
Speaker 1: and second, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, lamentations, Ezekiel, Micah, Zechariah, and
Speaker 1: so forth throughout there, stating God saying I create evil,
Speaker 1: I create evil, and examples of him doing it and
Speaker 1: doing it, I cause evil and all this stuff. So
Speaker 1: not only did he create it in the first place
Speaker 1: and put it in the in the pre fall original garden,
Speaker 1: and set up the whole circumstances for them to be
Speaker 1: tempted and to fall and fail, and sent Satan down
Speaker 1: there to do the do the tempting and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: Cast him to the earth in that very particular E
Speaker 1: could has cast him over into uh what is now
Speaker 1: Australia or America. You know, he didn't have to put
Speaker 1: him there, right in that little bitty patrick ground. However
Speaker 1: big that that was. And and my goodness, gracious, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean this is a so so you know, who
Speaker 1: is a source of evil? Who is the creator of evil? Now,
Speaker 1: the question is, all right, if God did all this,
Speaker 1: why did he do it? I mean, he didn't have
Speaker 1: to do this this way, did he? No? And again,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, you know, most Christians are bleeved,
Speaker 1: have been taught and believed that one of these days
Speaker 1: God's going to come back and fix it. And he's
Speaker 1: gonna fix it my room, moving all all the bad
Speaker 1: stuff he put in here in the first place. Now
Speaker 1: does that sound like that's kind of like an oops
Speaker 1: to you? Yeah, it doesn't sound like you believe that. Well,
Speaker 1: I believe in an all powerful God and all knowing God.
Speaker 1: You know, do you think he's he's he's learned better
Speaker 1: as he's aged.
Speaker 2: No, I think that he's already had all the issues
Speaker 2: of what he already settled in the mind of God.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely so. So let's take a look at maybe
Speaker 1: why God put that here. How much time do we
Speaker 1: have left?
Speaker 2: Lots We're twenty eight minutes, twenty eight minutes, take all right?
Speaker 1: All right, now, I'm just kind of going. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a huge topic, huge important, very important, very important.
Speaker 1: I can make the argument it's the most important.
Speaker 2: Well, that's because again I'll go back to spiking this coach.
Speaker 1: If we get the first things wrong, we're going to
Speaker 1: get last things wrong. And guess what. If we get
Speaker 1: first things the last things wrong, we're gonna get present
Speaker 1: things wrong. And guess what we have, Yes, we have
Speaker 1: big time. We need to get this stuff all straight down,
Speaker 1: by the way, which is the topic of my next book. Okay,
Speaker 1: when's it coming out? Well, I don't know, we'll see.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be floating it out next year, which
Speaker 1: comes in a couple of days. You want to hear
Speaker 1: the tentative title, Yes, the Late Great Faith Robbery.
Speaker 2: That sounds good. What do you think sounds good? It
Speaker 2: reminds me of the Late Great Planet Earth.
Speaker 1: That's intentional. Do you know that that book has sold
Speaker 1: over forty million copies?
Speaker 2: It's incredible. It's really one of the best selling so
Speaker 2: called Christian books next to the Bible. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: out sold the Left Behind series and they had all
Speaker 2: sorts of books.
Speaker 1: In their series. It's been translated into over fifty languages.
Speaker 1: I mean and and and William. That book came out
Speaker 1: in a oh, I think it was sixty nine or
Speaker 1: seventy in that range when I first came out. And uh,
Speaker 1: oh my goodness. It's just there's never been another book
Speaker 1: utilizing the phrase late Great No, never been. No. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that. I mean, I I've checked that out.
Speaker 2: How How what's your opinion on its on its predictions?
Speaker 2: Do you think that a lot of I thought it
Speaker 2: was totally wrong?
Speaker 1: That's what I thought to totally unbiblical. But the popular
Speaker 1: view in evangelical Christianity.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, a lot of those popular views are not some
Speaker 2: of the other ones today that kind of have that
Speaker 2: so called prediction uh pathetic voice.
Speaker 1: Often they don't.
Speaker 2: They don't work out the way.
Speaker 1: I don't want to name names, but well names, why
Speaker 1: are you so bash?
Speaker 2: You go?
Speaker 1: You told me about what I don't know about about
Speaker 1: who else? I'm just saying that.
Speaker 2: I think that I would just say this, John, is
Speaker 2: there are books out there in the similar vein of
Speaker 2: late great planet Earth, oh that make predictions that haven't
Speaker 2: come true or we're off the mark tons of them,
Speaker 2: and they're they're like you said, they're popular, they're kind
Speaker 2: of easy to be digestible, but they're not.
Speaker 1: We have we have a long trail of failed predictions
Speaker 1: and and and you you would think that you know
Speaker 1: that that would totally discredit Christianity.
Speaker 2: It does to a certain extent. And also you think
Speaker 2: that it would just discredit the people who authored those.
Speaker 1: Books, you would think, But they just keep coming out
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: They just come up with the next one. When you
Speaker 2: were kids, many times it is a fun game, is free.
Speaker 1: That's what we're doing. We just keep kicking the can
Speaker 1: down the road, coming out with more books and sell
Speaker 1: them more, and the and the prophecies come and go.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I can name names, and I do in
Speaker 1: some of my books, but uh, I won't do it
Speaker 1: here because we've got we're talking our different topic. Okay,
Speaker 1: here's one of the reasons God created good and evil
Speaker 1: and put it in the pre fall garden and still
Speaker 1: creates evil and still creates good. And that is what
Speaker 1: I call the dynamic of polarity, and it and and
Speaker 1: and uh. Everything in God's creation is created in a
Speaker 1: polarity type manner, or polar opposites. Let me give you
Speaker 1: some examples. Okay, from the physical creation North, what you
Speaker 1: do the opposite north.
Speaker 3: So east, up, down, high, left, right, in out cold, hot, soft, part.
Speaker 1: Light dark or have light heavy okay light.
Speaker 2: Dark, light heavy, sorry, okay, wet, dry, clean, dirty, mountain, Oh,
Speaker 2: valley fast, slow, large, small, open, closed, empty, full positive
Speaker 2: plus minus protons protons. Uh. I don't know how scientific
Speaker 2: you went against me? All right, day, night, winter, uh, summer, past, present,
Speaker 2: our future future loud Uh loud would be silent, yeap sweet,
Speaker 2: uh sweet or savored Uh savor, savory, I don't know,
Speaker 2: Uh set savory the opposite of sweet, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, beautiful, ugly Yeah, beginning ending, yes, no, true.
Speaker 1: False, fact, fiction, right, left, wrong, love, pete, sacred, profane. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you got that one right, miss the easy one?
Speaker 1: Uh joy, sorrow, laughter, sadness, our tears, justice injustice? Well, well, ill,
Speaker 1: are sick hope? Pope pope or pagan pope? Or what's
Speaker 1: the opposite of that? Pope or despair? Oh? Hope, I
Speaker 1: thought you said pope? Sorry, Hope? Is I you said? Okay?
Speaker 1: Pleasure and fast, famine, blessings, cursings, riches, uh, poverties, right, success, failures, victory, defeat,
Speaker 1: peace or uh contentment, contentment, strife or anger or whatever. Forgiveness,
Speaker 1: Uh vengeance, our bitterness, reward a reward, reward. Opposite of
Speaker 1: reward is punishment. Reward and punishment yes, gain gain and
Speaker 1: uh loss yes less more, uh growth.
Speaker 2: Uh growth, Uh desiccation, close, decay young old young old.
Speaker 1: Birth death Uh thesis antithesis yes, good and one more
Speaker 1: ready Okay good. That's why in order to have one,
Speaker 1: you have to have the opposite. Theesus antithesis. This dualistic
Speaker 1: dynamic William I present in my book permeates and penetrates almost,
Speaker 1: if not everything around us, as nature always has a
Speaker 1: double aspect.
Speaker 2: And it goes all the way back what you said
Speaker 2: pre pre garden in the foundation of creation.
Speaker 1: So why would God structure his creation this way? As
Speaker 1: we can further explore, maybe in another program, because I
Speaker 1: don't know how much longer time we got here. Okay,
Speaker 1: God in his omniscience, now omniscience means all knowing, and
Speaker 1: his omniscs knew it would be necessary in order to
Speaker 1: accomplish his purposes for us humans morally, emotionally, spiritually, and eternally,
Speaker 1: to put us in a temporary situation such as this.
Speaker 1: And when we've been there, not here, ten thousand years,
Speaker 1: perhaps we'll be able to appreciate it better. We didn't.
Speaker 1: I can't remember which missive of Paul's it was, but
Speaker 1: it was a letter. I can't remember which one, but
Speaker 1: it was part of God's wisdom that you would come
Speaker 1: from the fall and rise to the grace and savior
Speaker 1: through Christ. And it was part It kind of goes
Speaker 1: about how man's progression was. I wish I could remember
Speaker 1: that line. I don't know if that comes to mind for.
Speaker 2: You at all, But no, he said something was about
Speaker 2: the great plan of God, like this was the great
Speaker 2: plan to come from Sin to Greece. I wish I
Speaker 2: could remember that, but it kind of comes to me
Speaker 2: like that duality of just like people's pre you know,
Speaker 2: Christian in life and post Christian life. Oh, I wish
Speaker 2: I could remember that off line.
Speaker 1: God's whole creation, both the physical creation and the spiritual
Speaker 1: creation or the covenant creation. Uh. You know it is
Speaker 1: based on on polarity, you know, opposing forces concepts and
Speaker 1: so forth, and and and and a major physical force
Speaker 1: on planet Earth, of course is gravity. Uh. And it's
Speaker 1: essential because we couldn't even walk we didn't have gravity, right,
Speaker 1: we could we couldn't even drink water. Watch this, there
Speaker 1: it goes. I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that
Speaker 1: if we didn't have gravity. Ah, and and a whole
Speaker 1: host of other activities. Well guess what in a similar manner, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we have the uh moral and spiritual growth
Speaker 1: that we are put here. Uh, We're put here to
Speaker 1: to to seek him, to seek him. We have to
Speaker 1: have a reason to seek him. You know, if there
Speaker 1: was no evil here? Why would we want to seek God?
Speaker 1: All right, Sue, isn't that true? That's deep, isn't it? Uh?
Speaker 1: I mean? How and how else? William? Could we uh
Speaker 1: develop virtues like truthfulness and patience and courage and and
Speaker 1: and handle adversity and be and be loyal and merciful
Speaker 1: and compassionate and faithful and and have and and forgiveness
Speaker 1: and repentance. And how can we develop and flourish in
Speaker 1: these if there were no opposites from which to discern
Speaker 1: and to differentiate and to choose.
Speaker 2: All right, there you go, And it goes back to
Speaker 2: the tree. That's the knowledge of good and evil?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And who put that there? God? Before the fall,
Speaker 1: before human free will had anything to say about God?
Speaker 1: Did so? Who who's the creator of evil? God? And
Speaker 1: he tells us that. He tells us that as we
Speaker 1: looked at Isaiah forty five seven, I, you know, create
Speaker 1: darkness and evil? I create I God do it and
Speaker 1: set up the system for it. He is culpable. Now
Speaker 1: he's also supreme. But if you don't like it, if
Speaker 1: you don't like it, guess what right?
Speaker 2: And you could actually do the opposite the creation of evil?
Speaker 2: You could go through scripture and typing good and see
Speaker 2: like all the different profits and just saying do good
Speaker 2: focus on good Moses, you know, all the way through.
Speaker 1: I think Moses was very simple one. He just to
Speaker 1: choose good. Yeah. Now there's a lot of different dimensions
Speaker 1: we could go to from here, because there's a lot
Speaker 1: I just kind of laid out, you know, the beginning
Speaker 1: of it and a lot of ramplications here.
Speaker 2: Let's leave it there and people can get the book
Speaker 2: and look into it in greater depth. I think that's
Speaker 2: a good introu to the book. Like we hit forty
Speaker 2: two minutes and there's a lot more in this book.
Speaker 2: There's a lot more chapters and information, but you really
Speaker 2: go deeper into this. You talk about, you know, dualities
Speaker 2: that like you talk about dualities of evil natural a
Speaker 2: lot of quotes, yeah, naturally, you know out of theologians,
Speaker 2: Like you really covered a lot of theology theologians as well.
Speaker 1: I do, I quote a lot of them. Yes, John,
Speaker 1: Where's the best place for people to get the Creation
Speaker 1: of Evil? Amazon dot com. Amazon's the best way. And
Speaker 1: people want to read all my books are on Amazon
Speaker 1: dot com.
Speaker 2: And you're you're thinking about your new book is going
Speaker 2: to be out early twenty twenty two or later.
Speaker 1: Oh no, don't know, because we're going we're trying. We're
Speaker 1: trying to get it majorly published like the late great
Speaker 1: Planet Earthwise. Gotcha good? Now you know that that that
Speaker 1: and a dime will buy you a cup of coffee?
Speaker 1: Nor luck, I mean three bucks now and back when
Speaker 1: that's saying published Planet Earth? Do you know? Do you
Speaker 1: know what publishing house did? I believe it was Bandam
Speaker 1: I remember, right, that's a cash I think it was.
Speaker 1: But I I could look on the ill looking to myself.
Speaker 2: I maybe you know off and the best place that
Speaker 2: people want to reach out to you, John knowie it's
Speaker 2: no oe. Is your last name is www prophecy refi
Speaker 2: dot org. Correct, Yes, that's so they can contact you
Speaker 2: any questions or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Right, I have five more books, William, I'm on my
Speaker 1: bucket list. Nice, and then I'm done, and that'll be
Speaker 1: a total of twenty two. Twenty two is your number? Huh? Nice?
Speaker 1: Well it is. Some of them are out out of
Speaker 1: print now.
Speaker 2: But well, you know the thing is now a lot
Speaker 2: of people are getting their books through audio. They're listening
Speaker 2: to the audiobooks and stuff like that. So if you
Speaker 2: feel like you're out of challenges, you always go back
Speaker 2: through and update them with I need to do that myself,
Speaker 2: is go back and update them with audio versions. But
Speaker 2: that's a whole other story. Yes, John, great, great to
Speaker 2: talk with you again.
Speaker 1: It's great. Thanks a lot for coming back. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I enjoy you. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2: And again the title of the book is the Creation
Speaker 2: of Evil by John Nowe, published twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: Thank you for a time, all right, thank you