WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:03.359 Tim Carney, thank you for joining me on Commitment to Reality. 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:04.639 Thank you man. 3 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.519 Yeah, right before we started, I was telling you how 4 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:10.880 much I love your book Family Unfriendly, And I really 5 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:14.480 think that you put your finger on the pulse of 6 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:17.120 a problem that we're experiencing as a society, but we 7 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:21.039 don't know it. I don't. We might know that we're 8 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.359 experiencing problem, but we don't know what it is or why. 9 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:28.600 And I want to start by telling a story. So 10 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:33.359 a couple of years ago, my wife was pregnant, about 11 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.640 seven eight months pregnant, and we had a two year old. 12 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:40.960 We still have him, he's just older now. And we 13 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:44.640 were looking for somewhere to go on vacation. And so 14 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:46.840 you know, I'm a big travel I've traveled a lot 15 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.320 in my life. Thinking where do you want to go 16 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.320 with a two year old and a backpack and a 17 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:57.679 pregnant wife? And I start doing some research and I 18 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:03.840 a country kept coming up, Portugal, Portugal, Portugal, And I thought, okay, 19 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:09.000 what it says Portugal they love children? And I thought, 20 00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:11.359 well what country hates children? 21 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:11.959 Yeah? 22 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:18.879 Right, long story short. We go to Portugal and it 23 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:24.159 was illuminating. I mean, it's similar to some of the 24 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:27.120 stories of countries that you tell in your book. I mean, 25 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:32.000 the squares are built for a society, for families, for everybody. 26 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:36.519 But you bring our kids into the restaurant, and you 27 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:39.519 know in America, sometimes your guard goes up, you start clinching. 28 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:41.799 You're like, oh, they're getting a little wild there. We're 29 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:44.159 going to be judged and we're not going to be welcome. 30 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.439 And you know, the waiter would take our kid and 31 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:54.079 just disappear. Or we're standing at the bar, you know, 32 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.200 eating something and having a drink and the bartender grabs 33 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:59.640 our son and brings him back there and he's pouring 34 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:03.840 a drink while holding our kid, and we're like, Okay, 35 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:05.879 now I'm starting to see what they meant when they 36 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.639 said Portuguese people love children. It's not just that they 37 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:12.879 tolerate them. It's that they find joy in them, that 38 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:17.080 they incorporate them in their day to day lives. And 39 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.919 then so that's one thing. The other that really was 40 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:22.599 illuminating for us is anytime, whether you're in line for 41 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:28.439 a museum, to get groceries, anything in line, whether there's 42 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:30.360 a sign or not, it's just it's part of the 43 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:38.960 cultural stream. Pregnant women elderly, are disabled, or people with 44 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.639 kids go to the front of the line, and there's 45 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:48.360 no grumbling like I've been waiting. It's like we knew 46 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:50.800 that after a couple of days being in the country, 47 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.800 but we still kind of felt uncomfortable jumping the line, 48 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:58.560 and people would look at us like, what are you doing? 49 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.599 Get to the front, you kids, your wife is pregnant, 50 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:06.800 Come on. And so I tell you that as a 51 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:13.319 story to say, I didn't understand how family unfriendly America 52 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:16.919 and much of the West wasn't is until I saw 53 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:20.240 a different example. Right, it's the straight and crooked stick. 54 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:24.080 And I came home thinking, we've got work to do. 55 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.319 And I mean, all the specifics you're talking about really matter, 56 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.280 but if you think about it, what's underlying this is 57 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:38.280 a philosophy. Not a philosophy, just a moral view of 58 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:44.199 the human person. So one of the things that makes 59 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.919 America great is our individualism. Right. I was once in Germany, 60 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:51.000 like twenty years ago, and there's this cabinet minister who 61 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.680 told me Europe historically was populated with two kinds of people. 62 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:57.360 There were the go getters and the resk takers, and 63 00:03:57.439 --> 00:03:59.960 there were the people who were sort of reliable rule followers. 64 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:01.560 But the first kind of people all got on a 65 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.639 boat and went to America. And so our individualism is 66 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:08.800 a great trait. If you've read like Alexis to Tokville 67 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.680 Democracy in America, you know that individualism has always traditionally 68 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:14.879 been in the context of tightly nick communities. We have 69 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:17.040 a lot less of that now. We should talk about that. 70 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:21.279 But I think our individualism has sort of without us 71 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.560 realizing it has taken over. So why does that matter? 72 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:31.920 Because let's say, what you're asking, if you're asking people 73 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:34.040 to let you cut to the front of the line, 74 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.319 or what people are doing, they are saying that is 75 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.399 not just a group of four or five people there, 76 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.680 that that is a family unit. They're thinking of you 77 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.319 as a family unit that has special needs. We think 78 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.399 that we try to be sort of very neutral and 79 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.519 treat everybody equally here, and that's a good extent, but 80 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.120 at a certain point, your two year old is not equal. 81 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:58.199 Your two year old's legs are short, his understanding of 82 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:03.040 the environment, his ability, his patience is shorter. And appreciating 83 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.120 that and then what it goes to step further in 84 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.240 a family friendly culture, they're not saying, oh, well, you 85 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.279 know what, you made the decision to have kids, you 86 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:16.480 got to live with them. Kids are understood in some 87 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:19.839 cultures to be a natural part of life. You finish school, 88 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.040 get a job, you get married, and you have kids. 89 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.199 Not that everybody had to do that, not that everybody 90 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.839 got to do not that life always went smoothly for everybody. 91 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.160 But if that's the expected course of action, then you say, 92 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:36.600 the people who are raising kids are doing something extraordinary, 93 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.480 and they're doing it for a greater good. A. It's 94 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.560 natural and B we need it. 95 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:49.160 Yeah, it's the foundational building block of a civil society 96 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:55.480 is get married, have kids. And now, I mean, you 97 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.560 give a lot of reasons why, but that's a lifestyle choice. Now, 98 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:04.680 to get married, have kids. Tim Writing a book isn't easy, 99 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.720 you know that, Yes, So you have to really care 100 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.639 about something or feel like it's really worthwhile to do it. 101 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.279 Why this book, I mean, what was it? I mean 102 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.879 because you also, I guess, have the audacity to think 103 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:21.000 that writing this book might actually change some. 104 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:28.319 So I'd written a prior book called Alienated America last decade, 105 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:31.079 and it was about the collapse of community, about how 106 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:33.959 we're less likely to know our neighbors about how we 107 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.240 go to church. Last, you know, people are less involved 108 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.879 in their local libraries. So if you've read Robert Putnam's 109 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.720 Bowling Alone that he wrote in two thousand and that 110 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.079 was more true in twenty fifteen when I was writing 111 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.639 Alienated America, and I came at it from a more 112 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:55.560 religious perspective, because the most important institution of civil society 113 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:58.319 and in America has always been the church. And so 114 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:00.439 I wrote that book. And when I was saying about 115 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.680 the most important consequences of the collapse of community, I 116 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:08.040 realized it was a collapse in marriage and family formation. Because, 117 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.879 as a wise woman wants put it takes a village 118 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:14.120 to raise a child, right, we really do need and 119 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:17.759 whatever politicians mean when they say that, anybody who's raised 120 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.560 kids knows you need like Little League coaches, you need teachers, 121 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.120 You need neighbor, the neighbor family with three girls who 122 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:28.240 will babysit your kid. You need all all of that. 123 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.279 Right now, my next door neighbor is on vacation. We 124 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:33.720 used to feed their fish. Their fish died. I don't 125 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.680 think that was our fault. But now there's another neighbor 126 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:40.720 family that just I see is kind of exploring their 127 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:43.560 backyard and like bouncing on their trampoline. I'm just saying, 128 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.279 only one person on our block needs to get a 129 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.680 trampoline because everybody all the kids can use it. But like, 130 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:51.560 we're also money. No, you're right. 131 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:54.600 My wife wanted us to get a trampoline. I was like, hey, 132 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:56.920 our neighbors have one. They use it all the time. 133 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:01.519 It's okay, everybody's wealthier because all this stuff that's nice 134 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.800 when you're like a regular adult without kids is absolutely 135 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:10.680 crucial the community. Then, looking ahead, I think how we're 136 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.560 becoming less family focused is the biggest story of the 137 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.120 next thirty years and it shows up in declining marriage rates, 138 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:22.920 declining birth rates, pandemic of childhood and adolescent anxiety, all 139 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:25.040 of those things. I think that's the biggest story of 140 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:27.199 the next thirty years. And you're supposed to write what 141 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:31.240 you know, right. I don't know everything about democrat demography 142 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:34.120 sometimes confuses me. I don't know everything about parenting. My 143 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:38.159 wife and I have raised six kids and our oldest 144 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:41.639 is in college, and so I figure I have changed 145 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.399 more diapers than ninety nine percent of American males, So 146 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:49.240 I know something about those and that I think a 147 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:53.080 lot of really well meaning people just because of again 148 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.240 what's sort of the underlying worldview and our culture think 149 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:02.159 of family as just another, as you said, another lifestyle choice, 150 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.600 and if they have a family, they think they're imposing. 151 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.720 Because I've had that feeling too, where you're like, I'm sorry, 152 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:12.720 I'm bringing my kids, and so trying to change that mindset. 153 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:16.720 And there's this book, this children's book, illustrated children's book 154 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.440 called Babies Everywhere. I don't even have this book, but 155 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.200 every once in a while I tweet out the cover 156 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.919 of it, like that would be my view of like 157 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:27.039 a healthier society. If I'm in the coffee stop writing 158 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.120 and somebody brings in a baby, I don't get upset. 159 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:32.000 In fact, if I wanted to be quiet, it's my 160 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.960 obligation to like put in my nose noise canceling headphones. 161 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.720 But I probably wouldn't do that. I'd probably turn away 162 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:40.360 from the article I'm writing and start like making faces 163 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:41.519 at the baby and talking to the. 164 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:47.360 Mom being present. I mean, you allude to it, and 165 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:49.480 I agree with you. I mean, I love kids. I 166 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:51.679 love kids. I mean, if you ask me what I 167 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.120 wanted to do when I grow up, I more often 168 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.679 than not. Didn't know if you're talking about profession. But 169 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.200 I always knew that I wanted a family. I always 170 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:01.519 knew that I wanted to and I see the face 171 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:06.559 of God in children. I mean. Somebody asked me the 172 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:09.720 other day, somebody from our church. He texted me. He said, 173 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:15.360 how do I balance my love for God with loving 174 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:21.559 my family and my newborn child and my responsibilities there? 175 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:24.840 How do I balance the two? And I thought to myself, well, 176 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.559 it's an interesting question. But the more I pondered, I thought, 177 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.320 I think it's a false dichotomy. I think you love 178 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.279 God through your children, Well, isn't. 179 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.000 I mean, so when Jesus was asked what is the 180 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.080 greatest commandment? And somebody's looking for one of the tank commandments, 181 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:43.120 and he comes in and he quotes the shame of 182 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.720 the prayer juice say every day of love God with 183 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:48.600 all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. I 184 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:50.360 remember the first time I read that, because I grew 185 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:52.840 up secular, and so I first read the Bible in 186 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.799 college and before I came into the Catholic Church shortly 187 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.320 after college. But the first time I read that, and 188 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:03.399 they said, what is the greatest I was like, it's 189 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.840 fine for him to throw back to, you know, outside 190 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:08.919 of the tank commandments. But he gave two, right, he 191 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:11.480 said love God and love your neighbor. And it was 192 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:13.879 only while writing Family and Friendly that I realized exactly 193 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:17.960 what you're saying. If Jesus says that's one thing, that's 194 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.919 one thing. And so much of my understanding of the 195 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:28.000 cosmos is that while it's infinitely complex, I think the 196 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.600 way God sees it is actually more simple than we 197 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:32.840 see it. We like break things, and I mean just 198 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.080 think I'm sorry to get weird and nerdy, but like 199 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.559 heat and life, heat and light are both solar magnetic radiation, right, 200 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:44.399 They're both just radiation. They're like just different frequencies. We 201 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.559 experience it totally differently. So we experience loving God and 202 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.080 loving our neighbor as two different things, and we can't 203 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:54.519 exclude one of them. We have to do both of them. 204 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.919 If we're going to do either of them. That's of 205 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.240 exactly what you just said. And so now Family and Friendly, 206 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.399 if you read it, you know I'm writing I'm I 207 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.120 begin with sort of a Christian anthropology, but I try 208 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:14.279 to make the case for it with like sociology and stuff. 209 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.200 It's just proven that when kids are around, people are better. 210 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.080 And it's tough to say this sometimes because it can 211 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.399 sound like I'm saying dads are better than people without kids, 212 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:29.759 which is and I'm notxious saying to say, you know, 213 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:33.480 if you're somebody who wants to have kids and doesn't 214 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:38.000 have them or just isn't called for, that to the 215 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.960 vocation of fatherhood. But so I'm not saying dads are 216 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.200 better than non dads. I'm saying when kids are around, 217 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:47.320 when we have obligations to care for people who start 218 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:50.480 off totally helpless and then need lots of our guidance, 219 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.279 it makes us better. Like the first selfless things I 220 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:55.720 did was when I got married. 221 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.679 That's the key word selfless. I mean you begin to 222 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.600 see somebody else is more. I mean that's marriage, that's parenthood, 223 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:07.559 that's a good healthy society, and it trickles out. 224 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:12.559 I think that's that married parents learn the skill of 225 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.440 putting another person first from being married parents. We should. 226 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.240 You know, you'd like to think that at age sixteen, 227 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.919 you're like, Okay, now I'm gonna put everybody first, But 228 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.639 it's really hard, and then it becomes natural when you 229 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:28.200 have a family, and then ideally then you spread beyond 230 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.200 just your family in that in that skill and. 231 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.360 Like I said, you know, the getting back to the 232 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.519 false dichotomy of loving God versus loving your family or 233 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:42.440 your child and their responsibilities. And nothing has made me 234 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:48.080 understand God's love for us and in consequence help me 235 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.600 develop a greater love for God than being a father. Now, 236 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.759 once again we get into tricky territory when we start 237 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:57.000 saying that because it's oh, well I don't have a child, 238 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.120 does that mean that I don't know God? No, But 239 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:06.759 you understand that that it's just wow. I mean I 240 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:11.919 didn't think that I could love something this much, this unconditionally, 241 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.519 which then gets into you know, theology and doctrine all 242 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.039 that if you want to get into it, but go ahead. 243 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.879 Well, so, I mean a sort of salvation history. A 244 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.200 lot of the big beats are children. It's like Abraham, 245 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:29.840 You're gonna have children, the Nativity, like these these are 246 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:34.399 very big moments, and these are the in some ways 247 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.799 the founding of our religion as a Catholic. We always 248 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.440 say the Annunciation when Mary says, be it done to 249 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.600 me according to that will, that that was the most 250 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:47.120 important decision in human history, like I, I will carry 251 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:52.840 a child, And another way I put it is, I 252 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:54.759 don't know if you're gen X, you're probably a little 253 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.519 younger than I am, a little bit younger. Video game 254 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.879 a my age will and I might get it wrong, 255 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.840 but I think it was left left, right, right, abab 256 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.279 select start. It's a Konami code. It was a cheat 257 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:16.440 code for Nintendo video games and the I sometimes joke 258 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:22.720 that parenthood is a cheat code for virtue. Anybody can 259 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.279 and should and has an obligation to be a virtuous person, 260 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:27.960 to follow God's commandments, to be a good person, to 261 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:32.159 grow in virtue throughout their life. Not everybody, I believe, 262 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.200 is called to marriage and parenthood, but those of a 263 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.480 and not everybody can attain it. Those of us who 264 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.600 can attain it a lot of family and friendly I argue, 265 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.720 like we should make raising kids easier than it is. 266 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.399 But then, if you're honest, it's the hardest thing you're 267 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.960 ever going to do, but it's the easiest path if 268 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.919 where you're trying to go is a high enough peak. 269 00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:00.159 In other words, like sainthood being a man or I'm 270 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.759 in a virtue that's a hard place to get to, 271 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:05.840 and I think the path of parenthood is like kind 272 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:10.600 of not the short cup, but the gentler path that 273 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.039 And I think this is someone what Saint Paul was 274 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:15.039 talking about in his epistles, that it can be a 275 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.879 harder thing. Maybe it's a higher calling or something to 276 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:23.080 go a different route, but parenthood the Bible says to 277 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:25.279 feed the hungry and clothe the naked. You and I 278 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.679 wake up there are hungry naked people in our house. 279 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.919 So far, No, and you even went so far as 280 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.480 to say that, you know, it's a cheat code for sainthood. 281 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:41.879 Now we've talked a lot about that on this podcast. 282 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.159 To a degree, sainthood, what does it mean? I mean 283 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.480 it feels like unattainable and almost feels like something that 284 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:51.519 you shouldn't aspire to, like, well, saints are separate, they're better, 285 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.519 like you know it almost I can't. I can't aspire 286 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:55.919 to be a saint. But that's what we're called to. 287 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.120 Do, all of us, every one of us, yep. 288 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.200 And we have to recover that. I think I think 289 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:04.319 a lot of it. I mean, you talk about civilizational sadness, 290 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.279 I would equate that to a soul sickness that as 291 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:12.519 a civilization, we suffer from a sickness of the soul, 292 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.000 and a lot of that has to do with a 293 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.400 lack of meaning. But even those of us who who 294 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:23.359 subscribe to a faith but you're Catholic, I'm an Orthodox Christian, 295 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:28.599 saints are very important in our faith traditions. Yeah, we 296 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.200 kind of ignore it as something that we can attain, 297 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.279 and I think we kind of need to get back 298 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.880 to bringing virtues to the forefront. That's something that you 299 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:42.160 can critique, right, because one of the core emphasis on 300 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:46.920 this podcast is a commitment to reality that truth exists. 301 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.680 That yeah, you can have your opinion, but there is 302 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.039 a truth that we can aspire to understand and that 303 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.759 only you know. And along with that comes the virtues 304 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:02.720 that they Hey, you are not living a virtuous life 305 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.400 something that we can talk about as a society. But 306 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.400 because we don't, I think that our soul sickness only grows. 307 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:13.640 I think that's right. I think virtues is sometimes I 308 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.799 think that that would be an easier concept to sort 309 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:21.680 of reintroduce because it's really close to something that a 310 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.039 lot of secular especially sort of secular elites, college educated 311 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:30.559 people who are career focused. They'll talk about acquiring skills 312 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:34.839 and best practices and those that's pretty close to virtue. 313 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.359 It's not as loaded of a term, but it is like, 314 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.319 if you're an excellent, you know whatever, a banker, and 315 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.079 you're really good at it, you've understood that you need 316 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:51.799 to develop good habits and that Aristotle's explanation of virtues, 317 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:57.839 I fully subscribe to virtue is a habit that you're 318 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.960 so I don't think we're very very far. I think 319 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.920 we can reintroduce that idea, but I think the vocabulary 320 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:08.519 matters to make it be something that's about a deeper 321 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.599 human excellence and not just sort of success in these 322 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.680 measurable ways, not just success in your career or your 323 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.440 own you know, personal finance or whatever. And so virtue, 324 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.279 I really think does need to be reintroduced. And it 325 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:29.759 is connected to the sadness because because we're fallen creatures, 326 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.319 we constantly fail in ways that can be super depressing, 327 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.799 and then we realize a developing good habits can make 328 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.240 us less likely to fail, but be still going to fail, 329 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.480 and every time we fail, we're still made in the 330 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.480 image of God. So I think a lot of the 331 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.839 sadness is people who think that through their own effort, 332 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:56.519 they can overcome their fallen nature failing to do so. 333 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.720 And I mean, I remember, as I was writing this book, 334 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:05.920 I was on social media and somebody said something like, 335 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.400 why the heck would I want to have kids and 336 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:14.319 pass on all my messed upness? Somebody who was very 337 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.880 professionally successful, so to some degree had their self together. 338 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:20.799 This person wasn't a person who had, you know, was 339 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.359 born with an addiction to crack or something like that. 340 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:27.599 They just had had a rough childhood or felt bad 341 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.559 about herself. And I said, well, you know, however rough 342 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:36.559 your life is, you're you're a good person. And people 343 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:39.079 shot back and said, you don't know me. Don't go 344 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.359 saying a person you have no idea. I obviously was 345 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:46.160 coming from a perspective of a Christian anthropology. I'd think 346 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:50.079 of humans as being good but fallen. That idea makes 347 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:53.680 it easier to sort of keep your head up in 348 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.480 this world where we're constantly confronted with our own failures 349 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:01.079 and the sort of the difficult of dealing with other people. 350 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.799 Well, yeah, and you talk about other people in an 351 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:09.480 interesting way because on one hand, you say that we 352 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:12.319 need to do the most Unamerican thing possible, which is 353 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:18.680 depend more on others. But and I want you to 354 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.480 kind of help me figure this out. You say we 355 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:24.440 need to depend more on others, but we also need 356 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.799 others to leave us alone. How do we square that circle? 357 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.400 Because a lot of the problems And I feel this 358 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.799 in my core because my wife and I are both 359 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.240 pretty convinced that we're doing the right thing by kind 360 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:44.480 of being more free range with our parenting. But man, 361 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.039 people who are not free range parents really don't like that. 362 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.400 I have heard stories of these problems in my neighborhood. 363 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:58.559 It hasn't it hasn't happened. But we let our lucky 364 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:04.079 man Tim Well, we let our kids roam around and yeah, 365 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:06.799 we haven't gotten a you know, what are you doing? 366 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.200 You have to keep track of that. I wouldn't say 367 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.039 we need people to leave us alone, because again, that's 368 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:18.359 returning to sort of the individualism we need kids to. 369 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.400 Raising a kid is like your your child is in 370 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.079 a walled garden. This is a bad metaphor because it 371 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.160 doesn't quite make sense. But slowly you make the walls 372 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:31.039 wider and lower. So I have an college freshman right now, 373 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:38.400 so she has tons of freedom. She's nineteen, she's legally 374 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:40.519 an adult. So like, if we just follow the lall 375 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.599 to say, I have no say over her except that 376 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.079 you know, we're paying her room and board a college. 377 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:49.359 But then when she she's having a semester in Europe, 378 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:51.880 she wants to go to a Formula one race, which, 379 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.359 by the way, it's like ridiculous to me. I've never 380 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:56.559 watched a Formula one race in my life. I raised 381 00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:59.960 my kids, so like, you're American, it's baseball, basketball, football, 382 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.400 and hockey during the Worlds. And so she wants you're 383 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.559 going to travel from one city in Italy to another city, 384 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.559 Like I have a little bit of control over her, 385 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:13.480 and I was like, I don't think this, and we 386 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:15.599 talk about it, and in the end, I let her 387 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:17.240 do the thing that I don't think is a good idea. 388 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.200 With a one year old, you're probably not gonna let 389 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:21.759 them do the thing that they think is a good idea. 390 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:24.039 They're going to try to shove they see a dog 391 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.599 poop on the ground and they want to shove it 392 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.599 in their mouth, and you stop them so slowly from 393 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:31.240 like you have no freedom you live in North Korea 394 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:35.799 because you're one to like age nineteen, age twenty whatever. 395 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:40.839 When they get married, there's a steady increase of freedom 396 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:45.079 that you have to give them. Why that that just 397 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.720 basic framework I don't think is obvious to a lot 398 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:49.440 of popular culture, and a lot of it is that 399 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:51.759 the people, a lot of people don't have kids or 400 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:54.680 haven't had kids in a long time. And then within 401 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:58.799