Speaker 1: Welcome to episode eighty five of Get Out Alive, a
bi weekly podcast about animal tax why they happen, and
how we can avoid them. I'm your host, Ashley, and
before we get into today's special episode, as a thank
you to everyone who takes a moment to write a review,
I read one each episode. This week's review is from Podchaser,
where we can respond to your reviews, and it's all
the way back from twenty twenty two from Manda dot
McGee twenty two and she wrote, quote very informed podcast.
Ashley and Nick are amazing hosts and I'm hooked on
this podcast. Thank you, Amanda, love you, and thank you
to all of you who leave reviews for us, so
that be Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever, I appreciate you. One
more thing before we move on to today's conversation. If
you remember on our patreon at patreon dot com you
already know this, but I'm gonna take the month of
September off of Patreon because for those of you who
don't know, in just a few weeks after this is released,
I am getting married. And as you can imagine if
you are someone who's ever planned a wedding, it takes
a lot of time in planning to bring a wedding together,
even if you're just doing a quick and simple thing.
So at the end of this episode, I will explain
more about what our next episode on the main feed
will be like. Okay, so on to our special guest
for today's episode. I was joined by Los Angeles based
journalist Antonia Sarahido, who is on to actually talk about
another podcast series she hosts called Encroaching Predators, Lions, Coyotes
and Bears, which LA is to eighty nine point three
in Los Angeles, released last month as a long form
group of podcasts and it's Imperfect Paradise series. The episodes
are related to the historical and societal history of humans
and animals that come into contact with each other in
the seven hundred miles of intersecting homes against hills, mountains,
and canyons of Los Angeles County. This is a bit
of a different episode for us, and towards the very end,
I do, for the first time on this podcast cry
during an episode, so keep listening for that. Their series,
Imperfect Paradise does cover some attacks, including deadly ones, and
I highly encourage you all to tune in. I really
enjoyed them and learned a lot from them. Even though
I thought I already knew so much about these animals,
I still learned stuff. And one of the things that
we talk about in this interview is the infamous Mountain
Lion in Los Angeles P twenty two, who passed away
in December of twenty twenty two. We've talked about him
in a few episodes of this podcast, including episode eighty
two and episode forty two, which was right after P
twenty two passed away, So if you're unfamiliar with him,
go check those out. And of course you can listen
to the Imperfect Paradise episode on Cougars, which will tell
you a ton about him. All Right, without further ado,
let's get in to my interview with Antonio.
Speaker 2: So. My name is ANTONIASA. Dahida.
Speaker 3: My pronouns are she, her, and I'm the host of
Las Imperfect Paradise, which is a podcast that looks at
deep dives into issues that affect California.
Speaker 1: You're not a California native, are you?
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: I was born in New York City, but I grew
up mostly in San Diego. So I went to high
school in San Diego, and then after college, I went
back to New York and I was there for almost
a decade.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 2: But now I'm back here in La so yeah, nice.
Speaker 1: So you're doing the Imperfect Paradise podcast series right now,
but also, what are some other projects that you worked
on before this one?
Speaker 3: Before I worked on I Perfect Paradise, I was a
producer for NPR's Latino USA for eight years and I
mostly worked in like long form audio storytelling, and I
studied journalism in college, so I was like, pretty I
love documentary. Documentaries are my favorite thing when it comes
to issues of wildlife. It's actually an interesting story in
the sense that, like I did have sort of like
a specific moment where I became very curious about the wildlife.
And it was that I grew up in New York City,
which is like a really urban area.
Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of experience with nature.
Speaker 3: That I moved to San Diego, which is a much
more outdoorsy place and people are just much more aware
of like the flora and the fauna and the animals around.
And then I had a day where I was like
eating a walnut and I realized, I know, I had
no idea where the Walnut came from. I just was like,
oh my god, I am so like I was like,
I feel like, I'm so like I don't know.
Speaker 2: What the natural world is.
Speaker 3: And I read like a lot of like Michael Pollen
at the time, sort of trying to figure that out.
But that sort of opened up an interest that I
have that I think is like really deep into just.
Speaker 2: Like the natural world. And like now I'm a burner.
I burn a lot.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's interesting because this series, this series that
we're going to talk about is about like mostly predators,
and I did not have a lot of experience thinking
about predators going into this series, Like I think a lot.
Speaker 3: I'm also a gardener, so I spend a lot of
time outside and I think a lot about nature. But
this was sort of like a new avenue to think of,
Like it's interesting. It's like all the stuff that's in
your podcast about this sort of like conflict with animals.
I think it's so interesting and it really opened my
eyes to this whole other aspect of how we interact
with nature, which was awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, because I also love birds, I have an
AWLM a shirt. I need to know what is your
favorite bird? Or favorite bird that you've seen so far.
Speaker 3: I saw a I was in Tucson, Arizona, which apparently
has the most diversity of birds ever anywhere in the
world outside of the Amazons.
Speaker 1: What.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I saw this little.
Speaker 3: Will Warbler's Warbler's were the Yeah, it was a Wilson's warbler,
and it's like this adorable, like it looks like a
little poof of yellow and then has a little black hat.
Speaker 2: Nice. I love it so much. It's so cute.
Speaker 1: That's a good one too, because I feel like warblers
are also like sometimes hard to see because they eat insects,
so they're not just like readily available at bird feeders.
That's a great one.
Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite bird?
Speaker 1: I feel like it changes every day. So it's funny
that you say that you're like not very into or
like didn't know a lot about predators before the series,
because I that's like my jam So it's always some
sort of predatory bird, either like a peregrine falcon or
like a screech owl, like that's on my shirt because
also worked with screech owls before, and they're like they're
just so tiny and cute and my favorite Yeah, yeah,
there's like ten birds I could tell you that are
my favorite at any given time. So but you kind
of answered this a little bit already, But like, what
was your experience, I guess growing up with wild life,
So you just didn't really experience a lot of wild
things around you.
Speaker 3: No, I'm even living in a New York City apartment.
My mom refused to get us a pit that's how. Yeah,
she was like, no way, So I really didn't grow
up with around a lot of wildlife. And New York
City obvious has wildlife, and I think that's like a
misnomer that it doesn't. And like, for instance, because I'm
a burder, I would go to Prospect Park in Brooklyn,
and because it's such a dense urban area, the actual
parks have a lot of density of birds, Like it's
a pretty good place to be a birder, and like
I'd see hawks in Prospect Park and it was always
like so inspiring. But yeah, as a kid, like I
feel like here in la or in California or most places,
like parents will take their kids to the like to.
Speaker 2: Like go hiking or something like that, and we'd go
to the park, but it wasn't. Yeah, wildlife did not
play like a very big role in my life as
a child.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now would you say that has changed since
doing this series or just doing journalism work in general?
Speaker 3: The series definitely was very influential in terms of thinking
about like bigger animals. But a huge part of why
we moved to California was to spend more wild more
time in wildlife.
Speaker 2: So it's awesome general. I think it's a bigger part
of my life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome. So this series starts with the species that
seems really beloved in California, which is mountain lions, which
we don't have anymore here in New Hampshire, so I
am so excited to hear your experience with them. But like,
throughout this series, did you learn anything that surprised you
about human mountain lion conflicts that you didn't know before?
Speaker 2: Well, with the mountain lions, the thing that surprised me
the most was that male mountain lions are aggressive with
each other and don't want to be in the same area,
and that's why p. Twenty two had to leave.
Speaker 3: I believe it was the same Gabriel Mountains and how
we ended up in this like isolated small park in
Griffith Park, so that really surprised me. I just didn't
know anything about them. And then in terms of like
I was sort of like Jill in that, I was like,
what's the deal? Why is everyone so obsessed with a
single mountain lion? And then you learned the story and
you're like, actually, this is pretty amazing. I grewed to
also be a huge P twenty two fan, and I think,
I mean, I learned a lot of things, Like I
was surprised the second episode is about coyotes. I was
very surprised that coyotes when humans try to haze them,
they end up learning to just fear that one human,
not humans in general.
Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting. I been I didn't
know that dynamic.
Speaker 3: I also didn't know that coyotes had that reproduction ability
where it's like they when they've been tried to be hunted,
they just multiplied.
Speaker 2: I thought that was pretty amazing.
Speaker 3: And yeah, bears, I didn't know that black bears, for instance,
grew in this around trees, so they climb up trees,
so that's part of why people find them less aggressive
than grizzly bears. I thought that was really interesting. I
also didn't know that they were native to California. I
really didn't know anything about the history of affairs or
that they brought them into parks.
Speaker 2: So there were so many.
Speaker 3: Things that I learned about about animals during this series,
and I thought it was so Emily Garren is a
senior producer on the show, and she's the one who
really conceived of the series, and I thought it was
super smart because I think she's really right that, like
the way that these three different animals get treated differently
says so much about how we as humans interpret wildlife
but also each other. Yeah, and I thought that was
very interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you pick three great examples, because mountain lions
it seems pretty well received.
Speaker 3: Like p.
Speaker 1: Twenty two, for example, an icon people loved him, Coyotes
people vilify all the time and have extremely strong opinions.
And then bears black bears specifically, which are just like
people are kind of indifferent but like enjoy seeing them
but don't have very strong feelings most of the time.
So it's like three great examples. And like you were
just saying, there was one piece in the coyote episode
where I believe it was Dan Flores who wrote Coyote America.
I talked about him all the time. It's such a
good book. But he said, like, the way that we
talk about coyotes is prejudiced, and I'm like, yeah, it
is crazy how we assign like specific words to some
species to vilify them in certain ways. So I would
love to dive into coyotes specifically. If you are down for.
Speaker 2: It, do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Cool. So because you are now in California and the
coyotes that you have there are so different from the
ones that we have here. So here, for example, they're bigger,
but they don't really come into I mean, I live
with a bunch of woods behind me and I know
that they're there, but I never see them, Whereas in
California it seems like they're in really urban spaces and
they're smaller, but they maybe are a little bit bolder.
So in your experience, how are coyotes perceived there?
Speaker 2: I mean I can say personally, I like really at
least annoying, too scary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I go to in the Coyotes episode,
I go to a park that is really close to
my house at scot Hills, and probably one out of
every three times i'm there, I do see a coyote.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And especially when I'm walking my parents' dog.
Speaker 3: They have a tiny little dog. It's stressful, like like
my little nan Chow's not like a snack. You know,
You're worried that the coyote is going to attack your dog.
And also you see them like frequently. I'll be dry
and I'll see them a lot, and some of them
look really sick. That's always sad. Some of them, if
you see them in the street, it's typically because something
is wrong. So, yeah, I think generally people find coyotes
to be pretty menacing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I think that makes a lot of sense,
especially given one of the stories that you touch on
in the podcast episode about it has to do with
a fatal attack that happened in California. So do you
want to touch on like what that was and how
that maybe changed perceptions of coyotes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a so in Glendale, there was a
two year old who was mauled by a coyote, and
it was on a street where like a lot of
people had been feeding the coyotes.
Speaker 2: And so the coyotes would often come.
Speaker 3: And one of the parts of that podcast that's so
hard to listen to is that there is. Then they
would discuss that a city council what happened, and some
people brought up the possibility that the coyote actually wasn't
to blame for the death of the child. And then
you hear the mom really so much pain to talk
about how it was what led to the death of
her daughter, and yeah, it's this extremely painful story that
I think obviously once you hear of the death of
a child, this situation becomes a lot more serious. And
also then it's hard to have conversations I think from
like a logistical place of like what to actually do
about the animals, And so yeah, I mean every time
I would like cry every time I.
Speaker 2: Heard that part of the episode because it's just so upsetting.
Speaker 3: It's so hard to hear a mom talk about their
child that way, and then also to think about what
is the reality for these animals. So I think it's
a very good encapsulation of just like the specific conflict
and also how the conflict with coyotes like really seemed
to like exacerbate in California.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that also is a perfect example
of how extreme opinions are because it seemed like the
person who was saying, well, there's bluntfor's trauma and that
comes from like beating your child. That seemed to me
like someone who was a coyote lover who just like
couldn't possibly conceive that a coyote would kill a child.
And it's I just yeah, that was That clip of
audio was so heartbreaking. I can't imagine having to like
justify to strangers that you weren't doing this to your
kid after watching what happened happened, Yeah, my god. So
that episode goes on to specifically focus on one town
in California, Arcadia. So what made you all want to
focus on Arcadia specifically.
Speaker 2: For this episode? So this was Emily Garren who pitched
the whole series. Like Coyotes was where she.
Speaker 3: Began, and she started paying attention to the coyote situation
around the same time that Donald Trump's for selection was happening,
and at the time, the biggest conflict in LA around
coyotes was an Arcadia. So she started going to the
city council meetings recording them or she started reporting out
what was happening in Arcadia, talking to local residents and
at the time she wasn't able to like she did
a couple stories, like about the coyotes, but she felt
that there was like a bigger story there about what
this meant. And so what's really cool is that she,
now almost ten years later, went back to a lot
of the same people that she spoke to then, and
the big surprising thing was that the coyotes were no
longer a problem, but nothing had actually changed. Oh, like
they the residents were not concerned with the coyotes in
the same way that they.
Speaker 2: Were ten years before. I think she makes a very.
Speaker 3: Interesting point in this series, which is it's not that
there was like a coyote problem as much as it
was that humans moved on to like other problems. But yeah,
it was it was a good case study that she
had been following. So the reason we focused on ur
Kadia was because, like Emily had already been following what
was happening there for a while.
Speaker 1: And were they experiencing like attacks there or was it
just general like coyotes are going after pets and eating
garbage and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: The latter they didn't actually have an attack. It was
more that, yeah, the coyotes were around and were menacing.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Yeah, totally fair. So what was. I guess that
was the resolution, right, Like there was no coyotes hadn't
been removed, because I know that there had been talks
about that in Arcadia of like get trying to anyways
get rid of almost all of them. But instead it's
just opinions change and people are like, well, we have
more stuff to focus on now. I guess that's more
pressing than coyotes.
Speaker 3: Well it's like they moved on to the next boogeyman. Yeah,
I think is really what Emily was trying to say. Yeah,
Like I think a lot of times I'm reading a
lot of Judith Butler right now, but the gender studies
professor because I'm interviewing them soon, and they use this
word that is like, I'm kind of obsessed. It's a
word it's called phantasm, which is like basically like a
cultural fantasy that doesn't have to like really have to
do with actual logic. But it's sort of like she's
describing how gender in the US has become sort of
like and in a lot of parts the world, this
thing that is attributed with like all of the problems
because people don't want to think about bigger existential things
like climate change, economic insecurity, you know, mass migration throughout
the world, Like instead of like really focusing on all
of that, just be like there is a problem where
like there's this gender issue and Judah Butler calls it
a phantasm that the right is obsessed with, and I
sort of feel like we have many.
Speaker 2: Versions of that, right.
Speaker 3: So it's like the coyotes got to be this thing
in the culture that was like the thing that was
that was really bothering Arkadia residents, and now people talk
much more about the unhoused population. Yeah, but they're both
sort of like phantasms where they get to like all
of the anxieties that people are experiencing with in a
community get really localized.
Speaker 2: Within this one issue. And I think that the coyotes,
and I'm.
Speaker 3: Sure a lot of the stories that you hear for
your show are are people really taking out a lot
of anxiety towards a specific problem. And when it's something
more specific, like an animal or a group of people,
I think it becomes a lot easier to like focus
your energy in that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was one clip of a woman at
I think it was like a town meeting in Arcadia
and she literally said, I don't care about the science
or the facts. I just want like what I want basically,
And I'm like, I don't know how you can say
that out loud and like really believe that in front
of a group of people, be like, I don't care
what you have to say. I just still want what
I want. But yeah, I totally agree. And there was
another really interesting thing in the episode that I actually
had no idea. And I feel like I'm pretty well
versed on coyotes, like I've done quite a bit of
work with them or on them, I should say, here
in the Northeast, but they said that I can't remember
exactly what year it was, but essentially there was a
specific government organization here in the US, like a federal
organization that was tasked with removing a bunch of predators,
so like bears, wolves, and once they were like, all right,
well we did that, so instead of going out of
business or like not having work, let's just make a
new animal that we have to like set out to kill.
And it became coyotes. So I wonder if that also
shifted perspectives where they weren't that bad and then the
government was like, actually they are, and will kill them for.
Speaker 2: You so totally.
Speaker 3: That was like and that I think also was like
theydea behind. The series was looking at like the history
of like the predator war here in the US, which
was like a clearly planned out thing that impacted bears
and impacted like wolves, like you said, and yeah, it's
like it's another version of like the military industrial complex.
I feel like like you have a whole infrastructure to
deal with the problem, and rather than disband the infrastructure
when the problem goes away, you just invent a new problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it also the more I was
listening to the series and made me really think about,
like why do we think about predators like this, especially
like coyotes and wolves. And I do feel like it
is so tied to European beliefs of when early settlers
were in Europe wiped out wolves, didn't have to deal
with any predators. So when people came here, like especially
the people in those town meetings, they're like, I shouldn't
have to live with this problem. And this is Arcadia,
it's not Yellowstone, Like I shouldn't have to deal with coyotes,
and it's like it's crazy to me. There's just so
much intolerance. But it's like you moved here, they were here. Like,
I'm sorry, it's just it's a thing that you're gonna
have to deal with. But I guess that was just
a tangent, But it is. The series is so good
at being like, oh my god, why are we like this?
Why do people get so riled up about it? But
I guess kind of going off that. In the places
that you lived, have you noticed so like New York
versus LA, for example, have you noticed trends in how
people view coyotes, whether that be like east versus West Coast,
or even urban versus rule.
Speaker 3: You know, in New York, we really didn't have a
lot of coyotes that I recall, so I don't feel
like I have that point of reference. I mean, I'm
curious for you, Yeah, how do people feel? How do
your neighbors feel about coyotes?
Speaker 1: So we really don't see them ever, and like I
have a game camera in my backyard and I've caught
them on it, but I don't see them during I
don't hear them at all. And sometimes people will post
on like our town Facebook page and be like, hey,
so I coyote, keep your kids and your cats and
dogs inside. But there's never like cases of them killing
pets or anything like that. So they're not really a
thing that people here worry about much, at least in
my experience. But I'm like, I would say, pretty involved
in like the wild life scene here, but people don't
worry about them a lot. But I know that where
you live, they're way more active during the day, whereas
if we were to see them during the day here,
it is usually like they have mange or some sort
of issue. But if a healthy coyote is healthy, they
are not seen during the day at all, So I
don't ever see them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, Yeah, they're like they're part of our
like normal life. You see them so much, yeah.
Speaker 1: Which honestly is objectively for me, that's like so cool.
If I went to California, I'd be so signed to
see a coyote during the day.
Speaker 2: It's like, come to ask on hills, we can go
see them soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, especially because you are a murder.
When I go to places and see just like the
most common bird, but it's not a common bird here,
I get so excited. Like I went to London and
I was like, I need to see a European robin
and everyone's like, it's a robin, Like, no one cares.
Speaker 2: They're so do they look like what do European robins
look like?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, they're these cute.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They're like little blobs of gray and have like a
little orange cap. See, they're so cute exactly. And I'm
sure people feel the same about like northern cardinals here,
and I'm like, yeah, they're around all the time.
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyways, northern cardinals are really cool.
Speaker 3: They don't get them here, so I get really excited
when I see a northern cardinal. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Or like a tit mouse. I love a tit mouse.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I underrated. Also, black caped chickadees very common.
Also underrated bird.
Speaker 3: So cute, I yeah, every time I see those bir Yeah.
Like my husband's families from Indiana and when I go visit,
they have a big porch and I sit out there
and I see all those birds and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, wow, they're so cute the other yeah, so I
totally relate to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of our patrons, Dawn, asked, I have
this thing about coyotes. I feel so bad for them
down here in Florida. They are treated horribly. Is there
a way to handle the friction between the growing population
of both humans and coyotes without the violence? Thanks?
Speaker 2: Oh, isn't that the big question?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I think that's the big thing we're asking
in this series. It's a really hard thing to answer.
And I think that ultimately, I mean, it starts with
the individual, you know, changing their own behavior and education.
And that's like an answer that I think some somehow
doesn't feel satisfying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but I think I think.
Speaker 3: That's like that's a people problem, and like how do
you convince your neighbors to think a certain way?
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, like go back to Judith Butler. Judith,
Oh my god.
Speaker 3: One of the things that one of the things that
they they write in their book is that like to
the point about like you can't just show a text
and expect the person who's so angry about this to
read the text or like to poke holes in their argument.
It's more about creating like a counter narrative that also
maybe doesn't feel like related in like logic per se.
So I don't know what the answer is basically, but
I feel that it's like you can't think that just
by presenting information the other others are going to understand.
I think it has to come from a place of emotion,
because I think it's really an emotional response. So once
people feel less emotional about it, that's a better time
to maybe talk about it.
Speaker 2: So maybe similar to.
Speaker 3: How like when you're in a fight with your partner
or something, you're like, okay, we're too emotional, but you
like take a break and then come back. Like, I
feel like these arguments very often happen in like heated
things where like there's like a scary moment, but like
that's not the best time to actually talk.
Speaker 2: About these issues. So I think bringing.
Speaker 3: Them up at a time where like it's less intense,
I mean, and that's like you can look at the
coyote issue, which is like nothing actually happened, and yet
the quote quote problem went away, but it's because people
started focusing on other stuff. So I think I think
it's like finding a time that's less agitated to get
into these issues and maybe people will be more receptive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point and something I mean,
like we talked about with that woman who is like
I don't care about the science. I want what I want.
I think sometimes as scientists were like, but we have
all this data, and we had these examples, and we
have statistics that they haven't killed like x amount of
people and however long. But that's not the thing that's
going to change it. Hearing a number isn't going to
change your mind when you're like really amped up and
feeling like scared that your dog is going to be
killed every time that you go outside, Like, I don't
have that problem here, so I can't. I don't know
what that's like. You know.
Speaker 3: I had a really scary thing happened to me when
I was living in New York, which is that the
first night my husband went on a trip during like
the pandemic, so we had spent every single night together,
and then there was he's a stand up comedian, so
he did a gig. The first time he was away,
somebody tried to sneak into my window.
Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah.
Speaker 2: It was really scary. Yeah, And we started when he
came back, we like.
Speaker 3: Started looking at other places to live because I was
so freaked out by like by living around like in
a neighborhood that felt unsafe. And then it never happened again.
And also I just started to feel less scared.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was such a It was like.
Speaker 3: Such a strange thing where I was like, oh, this
thing that really terrified me that I was convinced I
couldn't live here.
Speaker 2: Just a bit of time made me feel like a
lot better.
Speaker 3: And I sort of think it's a similar thing where
it's like, ah, yeah, it's so like I can't imagine
the fear of having like a bear in your house.
For instance, like there's a wee we tell a story
of this woman who's like in her like room with
like her stiletto heel. I think it's so funny, but
then you also sort of realize, like you're like nothing
ended up happening to that woman, and then it like
didn't happen again. So I think time is actually also
a very powerful tool in terms of like dealing with
these issues that in the moment feel so extreme.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Speaking of bears, one of the
episodes is about bears in California, which, like we were
talking about, can kind of go either way for people
on how they feel about them. But yeah, I had
no idea that black bears were transported back to southern
California after they had specifically been wiped out. So can
you speak more to the history of black bears in California.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was amazing too.
Speaker 3: Basically, like bears became like sort of this like lovable,
goofy mascot that people wanted to see. And so after
they had been wiped out, California called like Yosemite Up
or not, like the Sierra Madre, the town that we
focus on called Yosemite Up, and they were like, hey,
can you send us a couple of bears? They were
like sure, and so they just like shipped them down
and people would go to national parks and take pictures
with because they thought they were like goofy and lovable.
But there was Yeah, there was this whole part of
the bear history where they just became sort of like
I don't know, like clown animals, where people thought they
were so funny. And I thought that was really interesting.
And it also is an interesting thing because one of
the big arguments about the bears was like are they
native to the area or not, And it turns out
that they are native to southern California, but that they
were intentionally removed and then brought back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well there was was it a article that someone
had written and he was like in a pretty prominent
political position southern California, and he said that they were
invasive and it was like our duty to take care
of quote unquote take care of them. But yeah, I
guess they had lived there for what was it, like
thousands of years before and then been wiped out for
maybe one hundred or so years. But yeah, it is
crazy that just a few generations and then we're like, actually,
they're invasive, so let's get rid of them. But yeah,
oh my god, which I think is also an issue
for coyotes because they have expanded so much from California,
because I mean, we didn't have them until god what
like the past one hundred or so years here in
the northeast, and so we're having that same conversation of
are they technically invasive? Are they naturalized? Like what do
we do about them? Or do we do nothing? So
but I love that they opted to bring them back
because it's really the best situation for everybody, I guess.
But so as it stands now, are conflicts with bears
increasing and are you seeing bears being regarded as like
more positive or negatively in the public.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting you bring this up because literally today
we published a video on last about like how do
Sierra Madre residents feel about the bears? And I looked
at the Sierra Madre Facebook page and it's like forty
four comments of really people who are completely split. I mean,
the bear situation is extremely controversial in Sierra Madre and
I don't think it's really been fully resolved at all.
Speaker 2: Whereas like Arcadia, it's.
Speaker 3: Like that was an issue ten years ago and now
people don't really care. The Sierra Madre bear situation is
extremely tense and they are extremely divided on how to
deal with the bears.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, could you explain a little bit of
like what are the kinds of conflicts going on there?
Speaker 3: So actually, I mean this was wild. Like one of
the things in that series is like each episode, I'm
sort of trying to see if I can see the animal.
And I've visited Sierra Madre to visit Aaron Stone, who's
our climate reporter and who did this story and is
a Sierra Madre resident herself, and we did see the bear.
Speaker 2: I was so surprised. I'm not thinking we would see
the bear and it's the Sierra Madrea.
Speaker 3: It just has like a lot of bear traffic and
it is a bit It's interesting. It's not suburban in
the sense that houses are very separate Sierra Madre. The
houses are really close together, so it's like quite dense,
and it's a little town in a mountain.
Speaker 2: It's one of the cutest places I've ever been. It's
so cute.
Speaker 3: I totally get the allur of living there, Like it's
very like picturesque. And yeah, bears were going into people's backyards.
We hear from a council someone at a city council
meeting talking about how he doesn't feel comfortable having his
grandkids over in the backyard because he doesn't want to
see a bear. But there has been several cases of
bears going into somebody's house and rummaging through their fridge.
Speaker 2: So the situation is that.
Speaker 3: There has been an increased there's been an increase in
bears and humans interacting in Sierra Madre. They've taken some steps,
like now every single garbage is like has a bear lock.
They have been very purposeful in giving people more education
in terms of how to deal when they interact with
a bear. But yeah, from what I'm seeing online. The
community is very divided, and like you said, like the
mayor of Sierra Madre, Glenn Lambdon, he is very concerned
about the bear issue. And then you have other people
who are very passionate about defending the bears. One of
the things that I thought was so interesting is that
one of the people we talked to had a bear
come into her house and she didn't tell the government
because they have a no snitching policy. That's crazy, yeah,
because they don't want to get the bears in trouble.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's a very tense situation.
Speaker 1: Well, because I thought there was also a situation where
someone did talk about maybe a bear that had broken
into their house. I forget the bear, oh Biff, I
think her name was, Yeah, and then she got relocated,
but then what she like, tried to come back and
then I think I hit by a car or something.
And then that person felt so like personally responsible for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and then she cries talking about Biff. It's
really sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which we actually had a similar situation here where
a bear was moved and relocated up to northern New
Hampshire and same thing just walked right back and I
think she had lived like a pretty natural life and
then eventually died from like old age or something like that.
But yeah, I think that was a really good example
to me of why relocation doesn't work, because that's all
always a thing that people suggest here for example of
like when they're having an issue. Okay, well I don't
want the bear to die because it's my fault, but
I also don't want it to be here, so just
move it somewhere else. But it's like there's nowhere to
move it, and it'll just walk right back, like they're
a big animal. They can just walk right back. So
it's there's really not a lot of good solutions. And
especially here, we have so many black bears and we're
we've lived with them forever, so we're like, oh whatever,
Like they're not that big of a deal. They like
keep to themselves, so to us, it's not always like
a it doesn't feel so intense, whereas there it feels
very intense all the time.
Speaker 2: There's not their bears don't go into the houses or things.
Speaker 1: Like that, so they do rarely, and when they do,
their like immediately like that is a no tolerance thing.
But people, I don't think feel as inclined to like
protect them, so to speak. They're like, oh, this was
like a bad bear, but we have so many bears
here that we're like, well, if one breaks into a house,
we like euthanize it, then there's still other bears. I
don't think people feel as personally responsible for it.
Speaker 2: That's an interesting Yeah, that's a really big difference between
Sierra mare Even you.
Speaker 1: Were saying, like California, from San Diego to like New York.
It seems like San Diego people are much more environmentally
conscious in care more. I wonder if it's a like
East coast west coast thing. On the East coast, we're like,
oh whatever, I don't know why.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's like California is like one of
the places where the animal rights movement is like so strong, that.
Speaker 1: Would make a lot of sense, and we're like just
generally I think more cranky over here. So I wonder
if it just like yeah whatever, But I mean, I
don't know, maybe maybe.
Speaker 3: That allows for more just like dealing with the issue,
because it sounds like there is some like a pretty
happy coexistence with bears where you live. It's like it's
so stressful in Sierra Madrea.
Speaker 1: I think people here have a pretty good sense of
if I live somewhere rural, I'm going to be dealing
with bears and here, like we know the protocol. But
maybe because they're relatively new to the area, there's just
like no, not a lot of education about it. But
it seems like they're getting better educa people, which is great.
Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe maybe it's an issue of time. I'm
just keep saying that.
Speaker 1: God, I hope. So all right, Patron Patty asked, do
they plan in the LA area for wildlife corridors to
try and give the animals their space and to try
to prevent conflicts with humans.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that's actually the last episode of our series
is about wildlife crossings, which is sort of a nice
loop back to the first episode where we talk about
P twenty two, because P twenty two really became sort
of like the poster child of this big effort to
create like a large wildlife crossing here in LA and
it seems to be more and more popular, and it
makes sense, especially in a place like Los Angeles where
so much of the city is dependent on roads and
was designed around roads, and like from the moment that
the cars were invented. It was a huge ecological crisis.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and one of the things that biologists suggests is
creating these, yeah, these huge crossings that animals can either
go above roads or below them, these wildlife crossings, and
so there's one that has been built. And one of
the things that's really interesting in the episode about crossings
that I hadn't thought about was that you don't need
like a parade of animals constantly crossing for the crossing
to be effective. You could have the Mountain Lion cross
once a year and it would be considered a success.
So it's really just giving them a safe avenue to
be able to go into different parts of California and
not risk being hit by a car. Actually, there's so
they thought they saw a new mountain lion in Griffith Park,
which was very exciting, and we contacted the city to
see if it was confirmed that there was a new
mountain lion in Griffith Park and they believe they believe
that that mountain lion was killed by traffic, I know.
Speaker 2: So it just goes to show that also, like we still.
Speaker 3: Have a long way to go in terms of making
Los Angeles a safe place for animals like mountain lions
and other larger animals and even smaller animals. So yeah,
there is a plan. They're doing more increased there's more
increased awareness and more of a desire to build crossings.
But they're extremely expensive, they are slow moving, and I
mean La also has like the Olympics coming up, so
oh my gosh, we have like a lot of it. Yeah,
in four years, so there's like this town has a
lot of infrastructure work.
Speaker 2: To do really fast.
Speaker 3: Actually, that's a really interesting question that I hadn't thought about, Like,
in all of the infrastructure that they're going to build
for the Olympics, are they thinking about the impact on wildlife.
Speaker 2: I'd be very curious to know.
Speaker 1: I would assume not.
Speaker 3: That's a way that maybe, if they're doing so much
building so soon, like that could be something that's incorporated
and it wouldn't be cool.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask the city that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, well I think that could also be
a nice like, look, we have a brand new wildlife
crossing that people can look at when they come for
the Olympics or something like make it like a tourist
attraction almost. That would be perfect way to get it going.
I also before we wrap up, would love to hear
more about your personal connection to the bald eagle pair
Jackie and Shadow if you want to share.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, the we added an additional episode about eagles because
as we were producing this.
Speaker 2: Series, these two bald eagles in.
Speaker 3: Big Bear Valley, which is like a very close ski
town to La became these huge viral sensations. Every story
we were covering at last about these eagles was just
like doing crazy numbers because people were so obsessed with them.
And the eagles were a bit of a different situation
than the other animals in this series because all the
other animals really.
Speaker 2: Dealt with this conflict.
Speaker 3: That you talk about a lot on your podcast, like
how humans and animals coexist physically in person, whereas these
eagles were viral sensations because they have their own webcam.
I don't know if anyone I feel like they're really
popular with the webcams with animals now.
Speaker 1: So many people show me those eagles. You have no idea.
Speaker 2: I remember when the San Diego Zoo had the pan webcams.
Speaker 3: That was so cute, But so these webcams have been
really popular, But these eagles became a huge sensation partly
because people were waiting for their eggs to hatch. They
were going to have eglists this year, and people were obsessed.
There's like hundreds of thousands of people following these like
fan pages paying attention to the eagles. And I first
learned about them right as I had become pregnant, So
I just thought it was sort of like it was
kind of amusing to me that like me and the
eagles were going through the same experience, and then we
both miscarried at the same.
Speaker 2: Time, and I knew that I wanted to.
Speaker 3: Do a story about the eagles because it felt like
a way for me to sort of like externalize and
process this very personal thing that had happened to me.
And I think that that's a really important aspect of
our relationship with wildlife. And I think there's people there's
people who are like, don't anthropomorphize animals, like you don't
know what they're going through. But I also think that,
like I don't know, if you've read the book Brating
Sweet Grass by Robin wall Kimmer.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, such a good book.
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite books.
Speaker 3: And I think that that book sort of change I
think I was one of those people who was like
people put all sorts of stuff on animals, like you
don't know what they're dealing with, like whatever. But I
do think that like one of the reasons why indigenous
communities lived in such harmony with animals is because they
felt really like is because they saw the animals as
related to them. And I think that so much of
being in wildlife.
Speaker 2: Is the same thing that you have with people. When
you hear your friend's story about a miscarriage, it means
so much to you. It meant so much to me to.
Speaker 3: Know that birds can go through the same experience that
I went through. It really made me feel like what
I had gone through was something very natural, which is
something that I think feels like a huge relief. I'm
very moved by that aspect of nature, of how much
it can help us process our own emotions, our own experiences,
And so that's sort of what I wanted to show
in that story. And I love Jackie in Shadow of
the Eagles. They're so cool, They're really funny. Yeah, they
have very expressive faces like you would just it's like
you kind of wouldn't expect that from an eagle, but like, yeah,
I mean, you go to the Friends of Big Bare
Valley facebook page and people post every single day and
they're like, look at how Shadow posed in this photo,
or like the fish that he brought, and it's really
fun and really sweet, and I think it's an important
thing in terms of like how we deal with animals.
It's like so much of it had been about conflict
in the series, and I wanted to talk about an
experience that was like how we can feel very personally
connected even if we don't actually experience them in person,
but even knowing about their experience was really moving to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much for
sharing that, And I think it ties really nicely back
into the point where we were talking about coyotes and
you were saying, it's like a really emotional response. And
because I'm such like a science person, I also was
on the team of like, oh, no, they're all separate,
they don't really have emotions. But I think that's a
really easy thing to say when you're trying to like
wipe out an entire species, right, like wipe out wolves
or something. You don't want to acknowledge that they can
experience grief or pain or suffering. So I think, oh
my god, I'm gonna like tear up. I think, no,
it's like a really good point that they like, they
do experience grief and it's hard to acknowledge sometimes, but
I like to think that as we're moving forward, we're
like gaining more insight into that and hopefully knowing those
kinds of things might make people feel more compassionate about
the animals at the end of the day.
Speaker 4: So thanks, Yeah, no's that's so sweet, Ashly Sorry, Yeah,
I like, no, that's really moving, and you know, like
I also, like I feel like I was someone who
maybe like, yeah, I felt like animal rights people were
like kind of extremists, and I think there probably are
some that are.
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to you know, they are a
statement about a whole group of people.
Speaker 3: But I think this idea that we have to determine
how an animal experience is life is unfair their.
Speaker 2: Creatures the same way we are.
Speaker 3: I don't know, we have so much in common with them,
and that's also such a source of strength, I think.
Speaker 2: In our own lives. And I think it's really cool
that you dedicate your life to that, Like I imagine
it's like extremely moving to feel close to animals, so
that's really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes it makes it hard to feel close
to people. So that's why I love love doing this
podcast because like you know, when I interview people like you,
we have the same like love and respect for wild life.
So you know, sometimes we're talking about people who might
not share the same love or respect. But I'm hoping
through this podcast that like, if people are experiencing conflicts
with like bears and coyotes, they can come listen gain
insight on how to make it like make their conflicts
better easier, but also come away caring more about the
things that we talked about, like having more compassion like
we were just talking about. So that's the goal.
Speaker 2: But we'll see, yeah, and I hope, I hope.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm going to share this episode with my followers,
but I really hope that people who listen to our
series also come and listen to your show because it's
like so solutions oriented and I think a lot of
people people want to live in peace and in a
good coexistence with animals, and I think some and there
are people who are just looking for more information, and
I think it's awesome that you provide that for folks.
Speaker 1: Ah, thank you. I tried to pretty hard, all right,
So let's wrap up just one last fun question. What
has been your favorite project that you've worked on in
your career so far.
Speaker 3: I don't really have an answer to that, but I
think the story. I did a story once when I
worked at leat you know usay about whether Latino's crime
more and it's sort of it was like kind of
like a silly question but then like led to like
an interesting socio historical look at like what.
Speaker 2: Crying has meant in Latin America and here in the US.
Speaker 3: And it felt like the story that most embodied like
my voice, And so I think, like I'm very interested
in social histories of people, and like that was what
I think so cool about this Predator series also is
that like really we're telling the story of these different predators,
but it's like a way of like how humans have
interpreted these things throughout time. I think it's very interesting
to me how we take on symbols and or objects
or things outside of like our human experience and interpret them.
Like I also did a series about Barbie last year
during the Barbie movie, and I learned so much about
like how Barbie was created and what that meant. And
so I'm really interested in sort of like the history
of yeah, the history of symbols. So I think it's
the history of crying was really interesting to me. Yeah,
so it's kind of fitting that you cried at the
end of the day.
Speaker 1: I know that I was just gonna say, we couldn't
have planned that better. Okay, well, thank you so much
for doing this. Let us know where people can find
you or find your work, and also where they can
find the podcast series that we've been talking about.
Speaker 3: So Imperfect Paradise is anywhere you get your podcasts. I
have personally so on Spotify and this series is called Lines,
Coyotes and Bears. I highly recommend it and you can
find me on Twitter at Antonia a n t O
Nia ce r E.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hope people listen to a pert of
Paris perfect.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And that was my interview with Antonia.
I know this was kind of a different get on
a live episode, but I really loved how conversational it
was and Nope, I did not expect to cry. Once again,
I highly encourage you all to listen to in Perfect
Paradise if you haven't yet. Antonia and her whole team
did an incredible job in this series. Even if you
don't live in California, it is still super interesting. And
I swear I am not just saying that because Antonio
was on. I really really liked the whole series. So
we very briefly touched on the fatal attack of Kelly
Keene by a coyote in Los Angeles, California, back in
the eighties, and of course their episode on Coyotes goes
more into it and has some audio clips of Kelly's
mom from that time, basically defending herself against people saying
that she killed her daughter. But I'm going to make
a free blog post on Patreon and on our website
and you can check that out for details in the attack,
But of course check out the Imperfect Paradise Coyote episode
as well. Also in the episode description of course list
where you can find Antonia and the podcast series. As
for our next episode, because I'm getting married in the
next few weeks, the next episode on our main feed
will actually be me on a different podcast that I
won't spoil just yet, but we'll be talking about wildlife
forensic science, which is the thing I'm currently getting a
master's degree in so stay tuned for that. Otherwise, I'll
be back in October for an old fashioned get at
a live episode about animals attacking people and what we
can do to stop that from happening. I know I
say it often, but sincerely, thank you all so much
for listening and for your kind words, comments and messages.
I read them all. I appreciate you. Thank you for listening.
Thank you also to my good friend and second grade husband,
Josh Walsh for making our intro music. Who forgotten a
few times now, but I think he knows that he
has loved. And a huge thank you to Jesse Walsh,
his brother, for editing this episode. All right, everyone, I
will see you in a few weeks for our next episode,
right before my big day. Thank you all.