1 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,199 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode eighty five of Get Out Alive, a 2 00:00:18,399 --> 00:00:21,559 bi weekly podcast about animal tax why they happen, and 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,920 how we can avoid them. I'm your host, Ashley, and 4 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,679 before we get into today's special episode, as a thank 5 00:00:28,679 --> 00:00:30,760 you to everyone who takes a moment to write a review, 6 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:35,359 I read one each episode. This week's review is from Podchaser, 7 00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:38,359 where we can respond to your reviews, and it's all 8 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:41,119 the way back from twenty twenty two from Manda dot 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,880 McGee twenty two and she wrote, quote very informed podcast. 10 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:48,200 Ashley and Nick are amazing hosts and I'm hooked on 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,439 this podcast. Thank you, Amanda, love you, and thank you 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,600 to all of you who leave reviews for us, so 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,039 that be Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever, I appreciate you. One 14 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:02,560 more thing before we move on to today's conversation. If 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,719 you remember on our patreon at patreon dot com you 16 00:01:05,799 --> 00:01:08,200 already know this, but I'm gonna take the month of 17 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:10,920 September off of Patreon because for those of you who 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,560 don't know, in just a few weeks after this is released, 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,560 I am getting married. And as you can imagine if 20 00:01:17,599 --> 00:01:19,680 you are someone who's ever planned a wedding, it takes 21 00:01:19,719 --> 00:01:22,560 a lot of time in planning to bring a wedding together, 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,040 even if you're just doing a quick and simple thing. 23 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:27,319 So at the end of this episode, I will explain 24 00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:29,799 more about what our next episode on the main feed 25 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,799 will be like. Okay, so on to our special guest 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,680 for today's episode. I was joined by Los Angeles based 27 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,680 journalist Antonia Sarahido, who is on to actually talk about 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,719 another podcast series she hosts called Encroaching Predators, Lions, Coyotes 29 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:49,680 and Bears, which LA is to eighty nine point three 30 00:01:49,799 --> 00:01:52,560 in Los Angeles, released last month as a long form 31 00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:56,359 group of podcasts and it's Imperfect Paradise series. The episodes 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,359 are related to the historical and societal history of humans 33 00:01:59,359 --> 00:02:01,480 and animals that come into contact with each other in 34 00:02:01,519 --> 00:02:05,319 the seven hundred miles of intersecting homes against hills, mountains, 35 00:02:05,319 --> 00:02:08,479 and canyons of Los Angeles County. This is a bit 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,039 of a different episode for us, and towards the very end, 37 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,599 I do, for the first time on this podcast cry 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,680 during an episode, so keep listening for that. Their series, 39 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:23,639 Imperfect Paradise does cover some attacks, including deadly ones, and 40 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:25,840 I highly encourage you all to tune in. I really 41 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,759 enjoyed them and learned a lot from them. Even though 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,080 I thought I already knew so much about these animals, 43 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:32,560 I still learned stuff. And one of the things that 44 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:35,599 we talk about in this interview is the infamous Mountain 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,680 Lion in Los Angeles P twenty two, who passed away 46 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,319 in December of twenty twenty two. We've talked about him 47 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,280 in a few episodes of this podcast, including episode eighty 48 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:47,039 two and episode forty two, which was right after P 49 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,639 twenty two passed away, So if you're unfamiliar with him, 50 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,120 go check those out. And of course you can listen 51 00:02:52,159 --> 00:02:55,039 to the Imperfect Paradise episode on Cougars, which will tell 52 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,879 you a ton about him. All Right, without further ado, 53 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:03,639 let's get in to my interview with Antonio. 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: So. My name is ANTONIASA. Dahida. 55 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: My pronouns are she, her, and I'm the host of 56 00:03:11,199 --> 00:03:15,199 Las Imperfect Paradise, which is a podcast that looks at 57 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:17,960 deep dives into issues that affect California. 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,479 Speaker 1: You're not a California native, are you? 59 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:21,719 Speaker 4: I was. 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:21,879 Speaker 2: So. 61 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: I was born in New York City, but I grew 62 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,159 up mostly in San Diego. So I went to high 63 00:03:26,199 --> 00:03:29,319 school in San Diego, and then after college, I went 64 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,960 back to New York and I was there for almost 65 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:32,680 a decade. 66 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: Nice. 67 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,479 Speaker 2: But now I'm back here in La so yeah, nice. 68 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: So you're doing the Imperfect Paradise podcast series right now, 69 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,319 but also, what are some other projects that you worked 70 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:42,120 on before this one? 71 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: Before I worked on I Perfect Paradise, I was a 72 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:51,280 producer for NPR's Latino USA for eight years and I 73 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:56,120 mostly worked in like long form audio storytelling, and I 74 00:03:56,199 --> 00:03:59,240 studied journalism in college, so I was like, pretty I 75 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,400 love documentary. Documentaries are my favorite thing when it comes 76 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,599 to issues of wildlife. It's actually an interesting story in 77 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:07,840 the sense that, like I did have sort of like 78 00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:10,639 a specific moment where I became very curious about the wildlife. 79 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,960 And it was that I grew up in New York City, 80 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,240 which is like a really urban area. 81 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of experience with nature. 82 00:04:17,439 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: That I moved to San Diego, which is a much 83 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,720 more outdoorsy place and people are just much more aware 84 00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:27,160 of like the flora and the fauna and the animals around. 85 00:04:27,199 --> 00:04:28,439 And then I had a day where I was like 86 00:04:28,519 --> 00:04:34,040 eating a walnut and I realized, I know, I had 87 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,839 no idea where the Walnut came from. I just was like, 88 00:04:36,879 --> 00:04:38,480 oh my god, I am so like I was like, 89 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,639 I feel like, I'm so like I don't know. 90 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:41,959 Speaker 2: What the natural world is. 91 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 3: And I read like a lot of like Michael Pollen 92 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:47,000 at the time, sort of trying to figure that out. 93 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,000 But that sort of opened up an interest that I 94 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,839 have that I think is like really deep into just. 95 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: Like the natural world. And like now I'm a burner. 96 00:04:53,959 --> 00:04:54,680 I burn a lot. 97 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's interesting because this series, this series that 98 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:03,399 we're going to talk about is about like mostly predators, 99 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,759 and I did not have a lot of experience thinking 100 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,160 about predators going into this series, Like I think a lot. 101 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: I'm also a gardener, so I spend a lot of 102 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,959 time outside and I think a lot about nature. But 103 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,000 this was sort of like a new avenue to think of, 104 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:16,600 Like it's interesting. It's like all the stuff that's in 105 00:05:16,639 --> 00:05:19,800 your podcast about this sort of like conflict with animals. 106 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,040 I think it's so interesting and it really opened my 107 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,279 eyes to this whole other aspect of how we interact 108 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:26,680 with nature, which was awesome. 109 00:05:26,959 --> 00:05:29,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, because I also love birds, I have an 110 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,759 AWLM a shirt. I need to know what is your 111 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,360 favorite bird? Or favorite bird that you've seen so far. 112 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,399 Speaker 3: I saw a I was in Tucson, Arizona, which apparently 113 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,759 has the most diversity of birds ever anywhere in the 114 00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:43,079 world outside of the Amazons. 115 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:43,639 Speaker 1: What. 116 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I saw this little. 117 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 3: Will Warbler's Warbler's were the Yeah, it was a Wilson's warbler, 118 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,399 and it's like this adorable, like it looks like a 119 00:05:56,399 --> 00:05:58,680 little poof of yellow and then has a little black hat. 120 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: Nice. I love it so much. It's so cute. 121 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: That's a good one too, because I feel like warblers 122 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,240 are also like sometimes hard to see because they eat insects, 123 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,959 so they're not just like readily available at bird feeders. 124 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:09,560 That's a great one. 125 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:10,439 Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite bird? 126 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: I feel like it changes every day. So it's funny 127 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,560 that you say that you're like not very into or 128 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:17,800 like didn't know a lot about predators before the series, 129 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,279 because I that's like my jam So it's always some 130 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:24,240 sort of predatory bird, either like a peregrine falcon or 131 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,000 like a screech owl, like that's on my shirt because 132 00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:29,680 also worked with screech owls before, and they're like they're 133 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,800 just so tiny and cute and my favorite Yeah, yeah, 134 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,720 there's like ten birds I could tell you that are 135 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:38,560 my favorite at any given time. So but you kind 136 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,040 of answered this a little bit already, But like, what 137 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,160 was your experience, I guess growing up with wild life, 138 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,519 So you just didn't really experience a lot of wild 139 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,720 things around you. 140 00:06:47,759 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 3: No, I'm even living in a New York City apartment. 141 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,639 My mom refused to get us a pit that's how. Yeah, 142 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,519 she was like, no way, So I really didn't grow 143 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,399 up with around a lot of wildlife. And New York 144 00:06:59,439 --> 00:07:03,279 City obvious has wildlife, and I think that's like a 145 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,480 misnomer that it doesn't. And like, for instance, because I'm 146 00:07:06,519 --> 00:07:09,560 a burder, I would go to Prospect Park in Brooklyn, 147 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,680 and because it's such a dense urban area, the actual 148 00:07:12,759 --> 00:07:15,399 parks have a lot of density of birds, Like it's 149 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:17,519 a pretty good place to be a birder, and like 150 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,319 I'd see hawks in Prospect Park and it was always 151 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,519 like so inspiring. But yeah, as a kid, like I 152 00:07:25,519 --> 00:07:28,079 feel like here in la or in California or most places, 153 00:07:28,079 --> 00:07:31,480 like parents will take their kids to the like to. 154 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,759 Speaker 2: Like go hiking or something like that, and we'd go 155 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,480 to the park, but it wasn't. Yeah, wildlife did not 156 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,480 play like a very big role in my life as 157 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:39,959 a child. 158 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, and now would you say that has changed since 159 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,639 doing this series or just doing journalism work in general? 160 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: The series definitely was very influential in terms of thinking 161 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:54,680 about like bigger animals. But a huge part of why 162 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,160 we moved to California was to spend more wild more 163 00:07:57,199 --> 00:07:58,240 time in wildlife. 164 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:01,279 Speaker 2: So it's awesome general. I think it's a bigger part 165 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:01,720 of my life. 166 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome. So this series starts with the species that 167 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,920 seems really beloved in California, which is mountain lions, which 168 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,959 we don't have anymore here in New Hampshire, so I 169 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,000 am so excited to hear your experience with them. But like, 170 00:08:14,399 --> 00:08:17,199 throughout this series, did you learn anything that surprised you 171 00:08:17,319 --> 00:08:20,720 about human mountain lion conflicts that you didn't know before? 172 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: Well, with the mountain lions, the thing that surprised me 173 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,160 the most was that male mountain lions are aggressive with 174 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:30,279 each other and don't want to be in the same area, 175 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,399 and that's why p. Twenty two had to leave. 176 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,279 Speaker 3: I believe it was the same Gabriel Mountains and how 177 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,519 we ended up in this like isolated small park in 178 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:40,840 Griffith Park, so that really surprised me. I just didn't 179 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:43,120 know anything about them. And then in terms of like 180 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,440 I was sort of like Jill in that, I was like, 181 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,240 what's the deal? Why is everyone so obsessed with a 182 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,840 single mountain lion? And then you learned the story and 183 00:08:51,879 --> 00:08:54,279 you're like, actually, this is pretty amazing. I grewed to 184 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,879 also be a huge P twenty two fan, and I think, 185 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,279 I mean, I learned a lot of things, Like I 186 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,000 was surprised the second episode is about coyotes. I was 187 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,879 very surprised that coyotes when humans try to haze them, 188 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,159 they end up learning to just fear that one human, 189 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:11,639 not humans in general. 190 00:09:12,039 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting. I been I didn't 191 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,320 know that dynamic. 192 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,799 Speaker 3: I also didn't know that coyotes had that reproduction ability 193 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,000 where it's like they when they've been tried to be hunted, 194 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:22,759 they just multiplied. 195 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:23,919 Speaker 2: I thought that was pretty amazing. 196 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:28,039 Speaker 3: And yeah, bears, I didn't know that black bears, for instance, 197 00:09:28,519 --> 00:09:32,399 grew in this around trees, so they climb up trees, 198 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,360 so that's part of why people find them less aggressive 199 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,840 than grizzly bears. I thought that was really interesting. I 200 00:09:36,879 --> 00:09:40,480 also didn't know that they were native to California. I 201 00:09:40,519 --> 00:09:43,000 really didn't know anything about the history of affairs or 202 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:44,399 that they brought them into parks. 203 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: So there were so many. 204 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:49,159 Speaker 3: Things that I learned about about animals during this series, 205 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,799 and I thought it was so Emily Garren is a 206 00:09:51,879 --> 00:09:54,200 senior producer on the show, and she's the one who 207 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:56,519 really conceived of the series, and I thought it was 208 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,879 super smart because I think she's really right that, like 209 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,799 the way that these three different animals get treated differently 210 00:10:02,919 --> 00:10:06,960 says so much about how we as humans interpret wildlife 211 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,080 but also each other. Yeah, and I thought that was 212 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:09,799 very interesting. 213 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you pick three great examples, because mountain lions 214 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,679 it seems pretty well received. 215 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:15,039 Speaker 3: Like p. 216 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: Twenty two, for example, an icon people loved him, Coyotes 217 00:10:19,039 --> 00:10:23,279 people vilify all the time and have extremely strong opinions. 218 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,159 And then bears black bears specifically, which are just like 219 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,279 people are kind of indifferent but like enjoy seeing them 220 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,080 but don't have very strong feelings most of the time. 221 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:34,559 So it's like three great examples. And like you were 222 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,279 just saying, there was one piece in the coyote episode 223 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,039 where I believe it was Dan Flores who wrote Coyote America. 224 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:42,799 I talked about him all the time. It's such a 225 00:10:42,799 --> 00:10:45,559 good book. But he said, like, the way that we 226 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,639 talk about coyotes is prejudiced, and I'm like, yeah, it 227 00:10:48,759 --> 00:10:52,039 is crazy how we assign like specific words to some 228 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,320 species to vilify them in certain ways. So I would 229 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,799 love to dive into coyotes specifically. If you are down for. 230 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,759 Speaker 2: It, do it. Yeah. 231 00:11:00,759 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: Cool. So because you are now in California and the 232 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:07,799 coyotes that you have there are so different from the 233 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:11,039 ones that we have here. So here, for example, they're bigger, 234 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,440 but they don't really come into I mean, I live 235 00:11:14,519 --> 00:11:16,039 with a bunch of woods behind me and I know 236 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,639 that they're there, but I never see them, Whereas in 237 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,360 California it seems like they're in really urban spaces and 238 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,519 they're smaller, but they maybe are a little bit bolder. 239 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,519 So in your experience, how are coyotes perceived there? 240 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,159 Speaker 2: I mean I can say personally, I like really at 241 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:32,960 least annoying, too scary. 242 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I go to in the Coyotes episode, 243 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:39,480 I go to a park that is really close to 244 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,200 my house at scot Hills, and probably one out of 245 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,480 every three times i'm there, I do see a coyote. 246 00:11:44,519 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: Wow. 247 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,399 Speaker 2: And especially when I'm walking my parents' dog. 248 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: They have a tiny little dog. It's stressful, like like 249 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,559 my little nan Chow's not like a snack. You know, 250 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,559 You're worried that the coyote is going to attack your dog. 251 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,000 And also you see them like frequently. I'll be dry 252 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:02,919 and I'll see them a lot, and some of them 253 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,519 look really sick. That's always sad. Some of them, if 254 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,600 you see them in the street, it's typically because something 255 00:12:07,879 --> 00:12:11,720 is wrong. So, yeah, I think generally people find coyotes 256 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:13,320 to be pretty menacing. 257 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I think that makes a lot of sense, 258 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:19,240 especially given one of the stories that you touch on 259 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,279 in the podcast episode about it has to do with 260 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,639 a fatal attack that happened in California. So do you 261 00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:27,720 want to touch on like what that was and how 262 00:12:27,759 --> 00:12:29,639 that maybe changed perceptions of coyotes. 263 00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a so in Glendale, there was a 264 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,200 two year old who was mauled by a coyote, and 265 00:12:36,279 --> 00:12:37,679 it was on a street where like a lot of 266 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,080 people had been feeding the coyotes. 267 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: And so the coyotes would often come. 268 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,399 Speaker 3: And one of the parts of that podcast that's so 269 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:48,200 hard to listen to is that there is. Then they 270 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,840 would discuss that a city council what happened, and some 271 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,200 people brought up the possibility that the coyote actually wasn't 272 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,799 to blame for the death of the child. And then 273 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,159 you hear the mom really so much pain to talk 274 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,799 about how it was what led to the death of 275 00:13:02,879 --> 00:13:08,960 her daughter, and yeah, it's this extremely painful story that 276 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,519 I think obviously once you hear of the death of 277 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:14,639 a child, this situation becomes a lot more serious. And 278 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,480 also then it's hard to have conversations I think from 279 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,200 like a logistical place of like what to actually do 280 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,679 about the animals, And so yeah, I mean every time 281 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:24,879 I would like cry every time I. 282 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: Heard that part of the episode because it's just so upsetting. 283 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:30,039 Speaker 3: It's so hard to hear a mom talk about their 284 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,559 child that way, and then also to think about what 285 00:13:33,759 --> 00:13:35,799 is the reality for these animals. So I think it's 286 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,879 a very good encapsulation of just like the specific conflict 287 00:13:38,879 --> 00:13:41,200 and also how the conflict with coyotes like really seemed 288 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,440 to like exacerbate in California. 289 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that also is a perfect example 290 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,399 of how extreme opinions are because it seemed like the 291 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,759 person who was saying, well, there's bluntfor's trauma and that 292 00:13:53,799 --> 00:13:57,960 comes from like beating your child. That seemed to me 293 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,879 like someone who was a coyote lover who just like 294 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,120 couldn't possibly conceive that a coyote would kill a child. 295 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,159 And it's I just yeah, that was That clip of 296 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,679 audio was so heartbreaking. I can't imagine having to like 297 00:14:10,919 --> 00:14:13,840 justify to strangers that you weren't doing this to your 298 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:19,240 kid after watching what happened happened, Yeah, my god. So 299 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,279 that episode goes on to specifically focus on one town 300 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,360 in California, Arcadia. So what made you all want to 301 00:14:27,399 --> 00:14:29,840 focus on Arcadia specifically. 302 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: For this episode? So this was Emily Garren who pitched 303 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,279 the whole series. Like Coyotes was where she. 304 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,679 Speaker 3: Began, and she started paying attention to the coyote situation 305 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,080 around the same time that Donald Trump's for selection was happening, 306 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,480 and at the time, the biggest conflict in LA around 307 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,720 coyotes was an Arcadia. So she started going to the 308 00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:55,480 city council meetings recording them or she started reporting out 309 00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:59,559 what was happening in Arcadia, talking to local residents and 310 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,840 at the time she wasn't able to like she did 311 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,480 a couple stories, like about the coyotes, but she felt 312 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,279 that there was like a bigger story there about what 313 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,919 this meant. And so what's really cool is that she, 314 00:15:10,039 --> 00:15:13,639 now almost ten years later, went back to a lot 315 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:16,080 of the same people that she spoke to then, and 316 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,320 the big surprising thing was that the coyotes were no 317 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,480 longer a problem, but nothing had actually changed. Oh, like 318 00:15:24,559 --> 00:15:27,000 they the residents were not concerned with the coyotes in 319 00:15:27,039 --> 00:15:27,799 the same way that they. 320 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:32,039 Speaker 2: Were ten years before. I think she makes a very. 321 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:34,879 Speaker 3: Interesting point in this series, which is it's not that 322 00:15:34,919 --> 00:15:37,000 there was like a coyote problem as much as it 323 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:40,440 was that humans moved on to like other problems. But yeah, 324 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,240 it was it was a good case study that she 325 00:15:42,279 --> 00:15:44,399 had been following. So the reason we focused on ur 326 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,519 Kadia was because, like Emily had already been following what 327 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:47,679 was happening there for a while. 328 00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: And were they experiencing like attacks there or was it 329 00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:54,320 just general like coyotes are going after pets and eating 330 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,480 garbage and stuff like that. 331 00:15:56,279 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: The latter they didn't actually have an attack. It was 332 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,919 more that, yeah, the coyotes were around and were menacing. 333 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: Gotcha, Yeah, totally fair. So what was. I guess that 334 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,679 was the resolution, right, Like there was no coyotes hadn't 335 00:16:12,679 --> 00:16:14,240 been removed, because I know that there had been talks 336 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,759 about that in Arcadia of like get trying to anyways 337 00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:19,960 get rid of almost all of them. But instead it's 338 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,440 just opinions change and people are like, well, we have 339 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,440 more stuff to focus on now. I guess that's more 340 00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:25,559 pressing than coyotes. 341 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 3: Well it's like they moved on to the next boogeyman. Yeah, 342 00:16:28,799 --> 00:16:31,559 I think is really what Emily was trying to say. Yeah, 343 00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:33,720 Like I think a lot of times I'm reading a 344 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,559 lot of Judith Butler right now, but the gender studies 345 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:41,320 professor because I'm interviewing them soon, and they use this 346 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,679 word that is like, I'm kind of obsessed. It's a 347 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:48,200 word it's called phantasm, which is like basically like a 348 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,200 cultural fantasy that doesn't have to like really have to 349 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,000 do with actual logic. But it's sort of like she's 350 00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:58,440 describing how gender in the US has become sort of 351 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,080 like and in a lot of parts the world, this 352 00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:04,319 thing that is attributed with like all of the problems 353 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,960 because people don't want to think about bigger existential things 354 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,759 like climate change, economic insecurity, you know, mass migration throughout 355 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:14,039 the world, Like instead of like really focusing on all 356 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,000 of that, just be like there is a problem where 357 00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:18,960 like there's this gender issue and Judah Butler calls it 358 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,960 a phantasm that the right is obsessed with, and I 359 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,200 sort of feel like we have many. 360 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: Versions of that, right. 361 00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 3: So it's like the coyotes got to be this thing 362 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,000 in the culture that was like the thing that was 363 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,200 that was really bothering Arkadia residents, and now people talk 364 00:17:35,279 --> 00:17:39,039 much more about the unhoused population. Yeah, but they're both 365 00:17:39,079 --> 00:17:41,640 sort of like phantasms where they get to like all 366 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,119 of the anxieties that people are experiencing with in a 367 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,640 community get really localized. 368 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: Within this one issue. And I think that the coyotes, 369 00:17:49,279 --> 00:17:49,680 and I'm. 370 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: Sure a lot of the stories that you hear for 371 00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:54,960 your show are are people really taking out a lot 372 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,759 of anxiety towards a specific problem. And when it's something 373 00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:01,079 more specific, like an animal or a group of people, 374 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,880 I think it becomes a lot easier to like focus 375 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,160 your energy in that way. 376 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 377 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,759 Speaker 1: I mean, there was one clip of a woman at 378 00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:09,720 I think it was like a town meeting in Arcadia 379 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,640 and she literally said, I don't care about the science 380 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,319 or the facts. I just want like what I want basically, 381 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,839 And I'm like, I don't know how you can say 382 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:20,559 that out loud and like really believe that in front 383 00:18:20,559 --> 00:18:21,880 of a group of people, be like, I don't care 384 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,680 what you have to say. I just still want what 385 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:27,319 I want. But yeah, I totally agree. And there was 386 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,200 another really interesting thing in the episode that I actually 387 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,039 had no idea. And I feel like I'm pretty well 388 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:33,960 versed on coyotes, like I've done quite a bit of 389 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,279 work with them or on them, I should say, here 390 00:18:36,319 --> 00:18:40,400 in the Northeast, but they said that I can't remember 391 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,000 exactly what year it was, but essentially there was a 392 00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:46,880 specific government organization here in the US, like a federal 393 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,480 organization that was tasked with removing a bunch of predators, 394 00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:53,279 so like bears, wolves, and once they were like, all right, 395 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:55,640 well we did that, so instead of going out of 396 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,039 business or like not having work, let's just make a 397 00:18:58,079 --> 00:19:00,000 new animal that we have to like set out to kill. 398 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,480 And it became coyotes. So I wonder if that also 399 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:06,079 shifted perspectives where they weren't that bad and then the 400 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:08,880 government was like, actually they are, and will kill them for. 401 00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: You so totally. 402 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 3: That was like and that I think also was like 403 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,200 theydea behind. The series was looking at like the history 404 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,319 of like the predator war here in the US, which 405 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,680 was like a clearly planned out thing that impacted bears 406 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:26,960 and impacted like wolves, like you said, and yeah, it's 407 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,119 like it's another version of like the military industrial complex. 408 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,559 I feel like like you have a whole infrastructure to 409 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:35,960 deal with the problem, and rather than disband the infrastructure 410 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,640 when the problem goes away, you just invent a new problem. 411 00:19:39,079 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it also the more I was 412 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,440 listening to the series and made me really think about, 413 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,119 like why do we think about predators like this, especially 414 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,400 like coyotes and wolves. And I do feel like it 415 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,240 is so tied to European beliefs of when early settlers 416 00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:55,960 were in Europe wiped out wolves, didn't have to deal 417 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,480 with any predators. So when people came here, like especially 418 00:19:58,519 --> 00:20:01,200 the people in those town meetings, they're like, I shouldn't 419 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,839 have to live with this problem. And this is Arcadia, 420 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,640 it's not Yellowstone, Like I shouldn't have to deal with coyotes, 421 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,039 and it's like it's crazy to me. There's just so 422 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,440 much intolerance. But it's like you moved here, they were here. Like, 423 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,119 I'm sorry, it's just it's a thing that you're gonna 424 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,400 have to deal with. But I guess that was just 425 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,039 a tangent, But it is. The series is so good 426 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,200 at being like, oh my god, why are we like this? 427 00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:26,839 Why do people get so riled up about it? But 428 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:30,039 I guess kind of going off that. In the places 429 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:32,599 that you lived, have you noticed so like New York 430 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,640 versus LA, for example, have you noticed trends in how 431 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,559 people view coyotes, whether that be like east versus West Coast, 432 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,039 or even urban versus rule. 433 00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:42,559 Speaker 3: You know, in New York, we really didn't have a 434 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:45,079 lot of coyotes that I recall, so I don't feel 435 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,480 like I have that point of reference. I mean, I'm 436 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,680 curious for you, Yeah, how do people feel? How do 437 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,119 your neighbors feel about coyotes? 438 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: So we really don't see them ever, and like I 439 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,640 have a game camera in my backyard and I've caught 440 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,400 them on it, but I don't see them during I 441 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,440 don't hear them at all. And sometimes people will post 442 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,599 on like our town Facebook page and be like, hey, 443 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,079 so I coyote, keep your kids and your cats and 444 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,039 dogs inside. But there's never like cases of them killing 445 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,920 pets or anything like that. So they're not really a 446 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,279 thing that people here worry about much, at least in 447 00:21:17,319 --> 00:21:20,039 my experience. But I'm like, I would say, pretty involved 448 00:21:20,039 --> 00:21:22,079 in like the wild life scene here, but people don't 449 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:24,599 worry about them a lot. But I know that where 450 00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:27,559 you live, they're way more active during the day, whereas 451 00:21:27,559 --> 00:21:29,240 if we were to see them during the day here, 452 00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:32,400 it is usually like they have mange or some sort 453 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,319 of issue. But if a healthy coyote is healthy, they 454 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,480 are not seen during the day at all, So I 455 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:38,400 don't ever see them. 456 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, Yeah, they're like they're part of our 457 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,119 like normal life. You see them so much, yeah. 458 00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: Which honestly is objectively for me, that's like so cool. 459 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,039 If I went to California, I'd be so signed to 460 00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:52,359 see a coyote during the day. 461 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 2: It's like, come to ask on hills, we can go 462 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:56,519 see them soon. 463 00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:59,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, especially because you are a murder. 464 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,440 When I go to places and see just like the 465 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,400 most common bird, but it's not a common bird here, 466 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,039 I get so excited. Like I went to London and 467 00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:08,400 I was like, I need to see a European robin 468 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:11,920 and everyone's like, it's a robin, Like, no one cares. 469 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 2: They're so do they look like what do European robins 470 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:14,759 look like? 471 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,559 Speaker 1: Oh my god, they're these cute. 472 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:17,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. 473 00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:20,519 Speaker 1: They're like little blobs of gray and have like a 474 00:22:20,519 --> 00:22:28,000 little orange cap. See, they're so cute exactly. And I'm 475 00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:30,200 sure people feel the same about like northern cardinals here, 476 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,799 and I'm like, yeah, they're around all the time. 477 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,799 Speaker 2: But yeah, anyways, northern cardinals are really cool. 478 00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 3: They don't get them here, so I get really excited 479 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,119 when I see a northern cardinal. Yeah. 480 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,839 Speaker 2: Or like a tit mouse. I love a tit mouse. 481 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god. I underrated. Also, black caped chickadees very common. 482 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,599 Also underrated bird. 483 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,759 Speaker 3: So cute, I yeah, every time I see those bir Yeah. 484 00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:52,839 Like my husband's families from Indiana and when I go visit, 485 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,640 they have a big porch and I sit out there 486 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,000 and I see all those birds and I'm. 487 00:22:55,839 --> 00:22:58,079 Speaker 2: Like, wow, they're so cute the other yeah, so I 488 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,880 totally relate to that. 489 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of our patrons, Dawn, asked, I have 490 00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:06,240 this thing about coyotes. I feel so bad for them 491 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:09,599 down here in Florida. They are treated horribly. Is there 492 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,079 a way to handle the friction between the growing population 493 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,680 of both humans and coyotes without the violence? Thanks? 494 00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:17,599 Speaker 2: Oh, isn't that the big question? 495 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? 496 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I think that's the big thing we're asking 497 00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:25,000 in this series. It's a really hard thing to answer. 498 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,720 And I think that ultimately, I mean, it starts with 499 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,160 the individual, you know, changing their own behavior and education. 500 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:35,559 And that's like an answer that I think some somehow 501 00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:36,720 doesn't feel satisfying. 502 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but I think I think. 503 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,759 Speaker 3: That's like that's a people problem, and like how do 504 00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:45,440 you convince your neighbors to think a certain way? 505 00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:51,279 Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, like go back to Judith Butler. Judith, 506 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:53,039 Oh my god. 507 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 3: One of the things that one of the things that 508 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,960 they they write in their book is that like to 509 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,920 the point about like you can't just show a text 510 00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:04,400 and expect the person who's so angry about this to 511 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,799 read the text or like to poke holes in their argument. 512 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,599 It's more about creating like a counter narrative that also 513 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,759 maybe doesn't feel like related in like logic per se. 514 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,559 So I don't know what the answer is basically, but 515 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:20,640 I feel that it's like you can't think that just 516 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,079 by presenting information the other others are going to understand. 517 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:25,839 I think it has to come from a place of emotion, 518 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,160 because I think it's really an emotional response. So once 519 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,920 people feel less emotional about it, that's a better time 520 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:33,960 to maybe talk about it. 521 00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: So maybe similar to. 522 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 3: How like when you're in a fight with your partner 523 00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:40,200 or something, you're like, okay, we're too emotional, but you 524 00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:41,920 like take a break and then come back. Like, I 525 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,920 feel like these arguments very often happen in like heated 526 00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:47,680 things where like there's like a scary moment, but like 527 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,319 that's not the best time to actually talk. 528 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: About these issues. So I think bringing. 529 00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:54,759 Speaker 3: Them up at a time where like it's less intense, 530 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,359 I mean, and that's like you can look at the 531 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,480 coyote issue, which is like nothing actually happened, and yet 532 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,440 the quote quote problem went away, but it's because people 533 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,160 started focusing on other stuff. So I think I think 534 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,359 it's like finding a time that's less agitated to get 535 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,920 into these issues and maybe people will be more receptive. 536 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point and something I mean, 537 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:16,519 like we talked about with that woman who is like 538 00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:18,480 I don't care about the science. I want what I want. 539 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,400 I think sometimes as scientists were like, but we have 540 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,799 all this data, and we had these examples, and we 541 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,000 have statistics that they haven't killed like x amount of 542 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,400 people and however long. But that's not the thing that's 543 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,000 going to change it. Hearing a number isn't going to 544 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,480 change your mind when you're like really amped up and 545 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:36,880 feeling like scared that your dog is going to be 546 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,440 killed every time that you go outside, Like, I don't 547 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,240 have that problem here, so I can't. I don't know 548 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:42,079 what that's like. You know. 549 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 3: I had a really scary thing happened to me when 550 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,000 I was living in New York, which is that the 551 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,400 first night my husband went on a trip during like 552 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,279 the pandemic, so we had spent every single night together, 553 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:54,400 and then there was he's a stand up comedian, so 554 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,559 he did a gig. The first time he was away, 555 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,440 somebody tried to sneak into my window. 556 00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah. 557 00:26:02,519 --> 00:26:06,799 Speaker 2: It was really scary. Yeah, And we started when he 558 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:07,680 came back, we like. 559 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:10,559 Speaker 3: Started looking at other places to live because I was 560 00:26:10,599 --> 00:26:13,680 so freaked out by like by living around like in 561 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,599 a neighborhood that felt unsafe. And then it never happened again. 562 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,559 And also I just started to feel less scared. 563 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was such a It was like. 564 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:27,079 Speaker 3: Such a strange thing where I was like, oh, this 565 00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:30,200 thing that really terrified me that I was convinced I 566 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:31,039 couldn't live here. 567 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,079 Speaker 2: Just a bit of time made me feel like a 568 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:34,640 lot better. 569 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 3: And I sort of think it's a similar thing where 570 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,759 it's like, ah, yeah, it's so like I can't imagine 571 00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:42,680 the fear of having like a bear in your house. 572 00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:45,279 For instance, like there's a wee we tell a story 573 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:47,640 of this woman who's like in her like room with 574 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,920 like her stiletto heel. I think it's so funny, but 575 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,279 then you also sort of realize, like you're like nothing 576 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,960 ended up happening to that woman, and then it like 577 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,079 didn't happen again. So I think time is actually also 578 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:05,799 a very powerful tool in terms of like dealing with 579 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,519 these issues that in the moment feel so extreme. 580 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Speaking of bears, one of the 581 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:17,240 episodes is about bears in California, which, like we were 582 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,880 talking about, can kind of go either way for people 583 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,799 on how they feel about them. But yeah, I had 584 00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:23,720 no idea that black bears were transported back to southern 585 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,400 California after they had specifically been wiped out. So can 586 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,519 you speak more to the history of black bears in California. 587 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was amazing too. 588 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,319 Speaker 3: Basically, like bears became like sort of this like lovable, 589 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,799 goofy mascot that people wanted to see. And so after 590 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,400 they had been wiped out, California called like Yosemite Up 591 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,039 or not, like the Sierra Madre, the town that we 592 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:50,160 focus on called Yosemite Up, and they were like, hey, 593 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,799 can you send us a couple of bears? They were 594 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:55,880 like sure, and so they just like shipped them down 595 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,759 and people would go to national parks and take pictures 596 00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:02,319 with because they thought they were like goofy and lovable. 597 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,200 But there was Yeah, there was this whole part of 598 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,640 the bear history where they just became sort of like 599 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:10,319 I don't know, like clown animals, where people thought they 600 00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:13,359 were so funny. And I thought that was really interesting. 601 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,279 And it also is an interesting thing because one of 602 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:17,440 the big arguments about the bears was like are they 603 00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:19,960 native to the area or not, And it turns out 604 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,960 that they are native to southern California, but that they 605 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,519 were intentionally removed and then brought back. 606 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well there was was it a article that someone 607 00:28:31,079 --> 00:28:33,440 had written and he was like in a pretty prominent 608 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,480 political position southern California, and he said that they were 609 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:39,400 invasive and it was like our duty to take care 610 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,000 of quote unquote take care of them. But yeah, I 611 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,559 guess they had lived there for what was it, like 612 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:48,960 thousands of years before and then been wiped out for 613 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:51,640 maybe one hundred or so years. But yeah, it is 614 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,960 crazy that just a few generations and then we're like, actually, 615 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,000 they're invasive, so let's get rid of them. But yeah, 616 00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:01,200 oh my god, which I think is also an issue 617 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,200 for coyotes because they have expanded so much from California, 618 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,720 because I mean, we didn't have them until god what 619 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:10,599 like the past one hundred or so years here in 620 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,960 the northeast, and so we're having that same conversation of 621 00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:17,079 are they technically invasive? Are they naturalized? Like what do 622 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:19,880 we do about them? Or do we do nothing? So 623 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,759 but I love that they opted to bring them back 624 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,920 because it's really the best situation for everybody, I guess. 625 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,559 But so as it stands now, are conflicts with bears 626 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,519 increasing and are you seeing bears being regarded as like 627 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,240 more positive or negatively in the public. 628 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: It's so interesting you bring this up because literally today 629 00:29:40,039 --> 00:29:42,720 we published a video on last about like how do 630 00:29:42,799 --> 00:29:45,279 Sierra Madre residents feel about the bears? And I looked 631 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,200 at the Sierra Madre Facebook page and it's like forty 632 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,200 four comments of really people who are completely split. I mean, 633 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,880 the bear situation is extremely controversial in Sierra Madre and 634 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,559 I don't think it's really been fully resolved at all. 635 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: Whereas like Arcadia, it's. 636 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,319 Speaker 3: Like that was an issue ten years ago and now 637 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:06,799 people don't really care. The Sierra Madre bear situation is 638 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,319 extremely tense and they are extremely divided on how to 639 00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:11,119 deal with the bears. 640 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, could you explain a little bit of 641 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,440 like what are the kinds of conflicts going on there? 642 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 3: So actually, I mean this was wild. Like one of 643 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,880 the things in that series is like each episode, I'm 644 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,799 sort of trying to see if I can see the animal. 645 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,200 And I've visited Sierra Madre to visit Aaron Stone, who's 646 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,599 our climate reporter and who did this story and is 647 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,640 a Sierra Madre resident herself, and we did see the bear. 648 00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: I was so surprised. I'm not thinking we would see 649 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,000 the bear and it's the Sierra Madrea. 650 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: It just has like a lot of bear traffic and 651 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,680 it is a bit It's interesting. It's not suburban in 652 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,000 the sense that houses are very separate Sierra Madre. The 653 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,440 houses are really close together, so it's like quite dense, 654 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,880 and it's a little town in a mountain. 655 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,519 Speaker 2: It's one of the cutest places I've ever been. It's 656 00:30:57,519 --> 00:30:58,079 so cute. 657 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,519 Speaker 3: I totally get the allur of living there, Like it's 658 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,640 very like picturesque. And yeah, bears were going into people's backyards. 659 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,440 We hear from a council someone at a city council 660 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,119 meeting talking about how he doesn't feel comfortable having his 661 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,640 grandkids over in the backyard because he doesn't want to 662 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,599 see a bear. But there has been several cases of 663 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,920 bears going into somebody's house and rummaging through their fridge. 664 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: So the situation is that. 665 00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 3: There has been an increased there's been an increase in 666 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,640 bears and humans interacting in Sierra Madre. They've taken some steps, 667 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,279 like now every single garbage is like has a bear lock. 668 00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,359 They have been very purposeful in giving people more education 669 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,920 in terms of how to deal when they interact with 670 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,599 a bear. But yeah, from what I'm seeing online. The 671 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,799 community is very divided, and like you said, like the 672 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:55,440 mayor of Sierra Madre, Glenn Lambdon, he is very concerned 673 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,839 about the bear issue. And then you have other people 674 00:31:57,839 --> 00:32:01,839 who are very passionate about defending the bears. One of 675 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,000 the things that I thought was so interesting is that 676 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,079 one of the people we talked to had a bear 677 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:10,440 come into her house and she didn't tell the government 678 00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:13,359 because they have a no snitching policy. That's crazy, yeah, 679 00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:14,960 because they don't want to get the bears in trouble. 680 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:16,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. 681 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's a very tense situation. 682 00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: Well, because I thought there was also a situation where 683 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,519 someone did talk about maybe a bear that had broken 684 00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:27,240 into their house. I forget the bear, oh Biff, I 685 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,839 think her name was, Yeah, and then she got relocated, 686 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,599 but then what she like, tried to come back and 687 00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:35,119 then I think I hit by a car or something. 688 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,119 And then that person felt so like personally responsible for it. 689 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and then she cries talking about Biff. It's 690 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:42,519 really sad. 691 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, which we actually had a similar situation here where 692 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:48,480 a bear was moved and relocated up to northern New 693 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,119 Hampshire and same thing just walked right back and I 694 00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:52,559 think she had lived like a pretty natural life and 695 00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:55,000 then eventually died from like old age or something like that. 696 00:32:55,119 --> 00:32:57,519 But yeah, I think that was a really good example 697 00:32:57,559 --> 00:32:59,960 to me of why relocation doesn't work, because that's all 698 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,200 always a thing that people suggest here for example of 699 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,640 like when they're having an issue. Okay, well I don't 700 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,920 want the bear to die because it's my fault, but 701 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,440 I also don't want it to be here, so just 702 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,480 move it somewhere else. But it's like there's nowhere to 703 00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:12,880 move it, and it'll just walk right back, like they're 704 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,200 a big animal. They can just walk right back. So 705 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:17,359 it's there's really not a lot of good solutions. And 706 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,519 especially here, we have so many black bears and we're 707 00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:24,759 we've lived with them forever, so we're like, oh whatever, 708 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:26,079 Like they're not that big of a deal. They like 709 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,640 keep to themselves, so to us, it's not always like 710 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,359 a it doesn't feel so intense, whereas there it feels 711 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,160 very intense all the time. 712 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,119 Speaker 2: There's not their bears don't go into the houses or things. 713 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,799 Speaker 1: Like that, so they do rarely, and when they do, 714 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,680 their like immediately like that is a no tolerance thing. 715 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,119 But people, I don't think feel as inclined to like 716 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,319 protect them, so to speak. They're like, oh, this was 717 00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:50,799 like a bad bear, but we have so many bears 718 00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:53,440 here that we're like, well, if one breaks into a house, 719 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,640 we like euthanize it, then there's still other bears. I 720 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,000 don't think people feel as personally responsible for it. 721 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 2: That's an interesting Yeah, that's a really big difference between 722 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,319 Sierra mare Even you. 723 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:07,599 Speaker 1: Were saying, like California, from San Diego to like New York. 724 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,239 It seems like San Diego people are much more environmentally 725 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,920 conscious in care more. I wonder if it's a like 726 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,199 East coast west coast thing. On the East coast, we're like, 727 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,159 oh whatever, I don't know why. 728 00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's like California is like one of 729 00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:25,920 the places where the animal rights movement is like so strong, that. 730 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: Would make a lot of sense, and we're like just 731 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,719 generally I think more cranky over here. So I wonder 732 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,920 if it just like yeah whatever, But I mean, I 733 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,480 don't know, maybe maybe. 734 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,519 Speaker 3: That allows for more just like dealing with the issue, 735 00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:38,800 because it sounds like there is some like a pretty 736 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,679 happy coexistence with bears where you live. It's like it's 737 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:44,679 so stressful in Sierra Madrea. 738 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: I think people here have a pretty good sense of 739 00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:49,440 if I live somewhere rural, I'm going to be dealing 740 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,679 with bears and here, like we know the protocol. But 741 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,239 maybe because they're relatively new to the area, there's just 742 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,679 like no, not a lot of education about it. But 743 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,039 it seems like they're getting better educa people, which is great. 744 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,599 Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe maybe it's an issue of time. I'm 745 00:35:04,639 --> 00:35:05,519 just keep saying that. 746 00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:09,039 Speaker 1: God, I hope. So all right, Patron Patty asked, do 747 00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:11,800 they plan in the LA area for wildlife corridors to 748 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,880 try and give the animals their space and to try 749 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,480 to prevent conflicts with humans. 750 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,199 Speaker 2: Yes, so that's actually the last episode of our series 751 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,480 is about wildlife crossings, which is sort of a nice 752 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,320 loop back to the first episode where we talk about 753 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,079 P twenty two, because P twenty two really became sort 754 00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:31,800 of like the poster child of this big effort to 755 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,039 create like a large wildlife crossing here in LA and 756 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,920 it seems to be more and more popular, and it 757 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,400 makes sense, especially in a place like Los Angeles where 758 00:35:41,519 --> 00:35:44,639 so much of the city is dependent on roads and 759 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,679 was designed around roads, and like from the moment that 760 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,440 the cars were invented. It was a huge ecological crisis. 761 00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and one of the things that biologists suggests is 762 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,199 creating these, yeah, these huge crossings that animals can either 763 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,119 go above roads or below them, these wildlife crossings, and 764 00:36:03,199 --> 00:36:05,800 so there's one that has been built. And one of 765 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,400 the things that's really interesting in the episode about crossings 766 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,679 that I hadn't thought about was that you don't need 767 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,599 like a parade of animals constantly crossing for the crossing 768 00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:18,360 to be effective. You could have the Mountain Lion cross 769 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,280 once a year and it would be considered a success. 770 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,159 So it's really just giving them a safe avenue to 771 00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:27,840 be able to go into different parts of California and 772 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,119 not risk being hit by a car. Actually, there's so 773 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,400 they thought they saw a new mountain lion in Griffith Park, 774 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,480 which was very exciting, and we contacted the city to 775 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:43,480 see if it was confirmed that there was a new 776 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,000 mountain lion in Griffith Park and they believe they believe 777 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,400 that that mountain lion was killed by traffic, I know. 778 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,519 Speaker 2: So it just goes to show that also, like we still. 779 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 3: Have a long way to go in terms of making 780 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,320 Los Angeles a safe place for animals like mountain lions 781 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,119 and other larger animals and even smaller animals. So yeah, 782 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:09,559 there is a plan. They're doing more increased there's more 783 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:12,559 increased awareness and more of a desire to build crossings. 784 00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:18,880 But they're extremely expensive, they are slow moving, and I 785 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,800 mean La also has like the Olympics coming up, so 786 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:24,400 oh my gosh, we have like a lot of it. Yeah, 787 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,639 in four years, so there's like this town has a 788 00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:28,039 lot of infrastructure work. 789 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,199 Speaker 2: To do really fast. 790 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 3: Actually, that's a really interesting question that I hadn't thought about, Like, 791 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,920 in all of the infrastructure that they're going to build 792 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,760 for the Olympics, are they thinking about the impact on wildlife. 793 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: I'd be very curious to know. 794 00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: I would assume not. 795 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 3: That's a way that maybe, if they're doing so much 796 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,320 building so soon, like that could be something that's incorporated 797 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:44,960 and it wouldn't be cool. 798 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask the city that. 799 00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:49,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, well I think that could also be 800 00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:51,199 a nice like, look, we have a brand new wildlife 801 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,400 crossing that people can look at when they come for 802 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,320 the Olympics or something like make it like a tourist 803 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,079 attraction almost. That would be perfect way to get it going. 804 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,519 I also before we wrap up, would love to hear 805 00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:05,119 more about your personal connection to the bald eagle pair 806 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,440 Jackie and Shadow if you want to share. 807 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 808 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 3: So, the we added an additional episode about eagles because 809 00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:14,239 as we were producing this. 810 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,679 Speaker 2: Series, these two bald eagles in. 811 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,159 Speaker 3: Big Bear Valley, which is like a very close ski 812 00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:24,679 town to La became these huge viral sensations. Every story 813 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,159 we were covering at last about these eagles was just 814 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,239 like doing crazy numbers because people were so obsessed with them. 815 00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:32,800 And the eagles were a bit of a different situation 816 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,960 than the other animals in this series because all the 817 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,119 other animals really. 818 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,599 Speaker 2: Dealt with this conflict. 819 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,119 Speaker 3: That you talk about a lot on your podcast, like 820 00:38:39,159 --> 00:38:45,039 how humans and animals coexist physically in person, whereas these 821 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:48,719 eagles were viral sensations because they have their own webcam. 822 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,400 I don't know if anyone I feel like they're really 823 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,320 popular with the webcams with animals now. 824 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,639 Speaker 1: So many people show me those eagles. You have no idea. 825 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 2: I remember when the San Diego Zoo had the pan webcams. 826 00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:05,119 Speaker 3: That was so cute, But so these webcams have been 827 00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:08,079 really popular, But these eagles became a huge sensation partly 828 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:10,880 because people were waiting for their eggs to hatch. They 829 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,159 were going to have eglists this year, and people were obsessed. 830 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,159 There's like hundreds of thousands of people following these like 831 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,480 fan pages paying attention to the eagles. And I first 832 00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:23,719 learned about them right as I had become pregnant, So 833 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,280 I just thought it was sort of like it was 834 00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:27,360 kind of amusing to me that like me and the 835 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,440 eagles were going through the same experience, and then we 836 00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:35,280 both miscarried at the same. 837 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:39,079 Speaker 2: Time, and I knew that I wanted to. 838 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 3: Do a story about the eagles because it felt like 839 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,360 a way for me to sort of like externalize and 840 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,840 process this very personal thing that had happened to me. 841 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,159 And I think that that's a really important aspect of 842 00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:52,760 our relationship with wildlife. And I think there's people there's 843 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,239 people who are like, don't anthropomorphize animals, like you don't 844 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,920 know what they're going through. But I also think that, 845 00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:01,559 like I don't know, if you've read the book Brating 846 00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:03,559 Sweet Grass by Robin wall Kimmer. 847 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,519 Speaker 1: Oh my god, such a good book. 848 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,079 Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite books. 849 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 3: And I think that that book sort of change I 850 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,559 think I was one of those people who was like 851 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,880 people put all sorts of stuff on animals, like you 852 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,079 don't know what they're dealing with, like whatever. But I 853 00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:19,360 do think that like one of the reasons why indigenous 854 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,920 communities lived in such harmony with animals is because they 855 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,760 felt really like is because they saw the animals as 856 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,159 related to them. And I think that so much of 857 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,639 being in wildlife. 858 00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:34,079 Speaker 2: Is the same thing that you have with people. When 859 00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:36,800 you hear your friend's story about a miscarriage, it means 860 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,239 so much to you. It meant so much to me to. 861 00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:42,599 Speaker 3: Know that birds can go through the same experience that 862 00:40:42,639 --> 00:40:46,119 I went through. It really made me feel like what 863 00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:48,719 I had gone through was something very natural, which is 864 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,559 something that I think feels like a huge relief. I'm 865 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:54,000 very moved by that aspect of nature, of how much 866 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,920 it can help us process our own emotions, our own experiences, 867 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,960 And so that's sort of what I wanted to show 868 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:03,840 in that story. And I love Jackie in Shadow of 869 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,800 the Eagles. They're so cool, They're really funny. Yeah, they 870 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,960 have very expressive faces like you would just it's like 871 00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:14,400 you kind of wouldn't expect that from an eagle, but like, yeah, 872 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,000 I mean, you go to the Friends of Big Bare 873 00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:18,679 Valley facebook page and people post every single day and 874 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,239 they're like, look at how Shadow posed in this photo, 875 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,440 or like the fish that he brought, and it's really 876 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,000 fun and really sweet, and I think it's an important 877 00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:31,440 thing in terms of like how we deal with animals. 878 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,400 It's like so much of it had been about conflict 879 00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:35,880 in the series, and I wanted to talk about an 880 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,199 experience that was like how we can feel very personally 881 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,760 connected even if we don't actually experience them in person, 882 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,719 but even knowing about their experience was really moving to me. 883 00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much for 884 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,320 sharing that, And I think it ties really nicely back 885 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,400 into the point where we were talking about coyotes and 886 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,440 you were saying, it's like a really emotional response. And 887 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,599 because I'm such like a science person, I also was 888 00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:03,639 on the team of like, oh, no, they're all separate, 889 00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:05,800 they don't really have emotions. But I think that's a 890 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,480 really easy thing to say when you're trying to like 891 00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:10,000 wipe out an entire species, right, like wipe out wolves 892 00:42:10,119 --> 00:42:12,039 or something. You don't want to acknowledge that they can 893 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:15,519 experience grief or pain or suffering. So I think, oh 894 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:18,760 my god, I'm gonna like tear up. I think, no, 895 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,800 it's like a really good point that they like, they 896 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,079 do experience grief and it's hard to acknowledge sometimes, but 897 00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:26,000 I like to think that as we're moving forward, we're 898 00:42:26,039 --> 00:42:29,480 like gaining more insight into that and hopefully knowing those 899 00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:32,119 kinds of things might make people feel more compassionate about 900 00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:33,239 the animals at the end of the day. 901 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,119 Speaker 4: So thanks, Yeah, no's that's so sweet, Ashly Sorry, Yeah, 902 00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:43,119 I like, no, that's really moving, and you know, like 903 00:42:43,199 --> 00:42:44,920 I also, like I feel like I was someone who 904 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,559 maybe like, yeah, I felt like animal rights people were 905 00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:49,920 like kind of extremists, and I think there probably are 906 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:50,800 some that are. 907 00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:52,599 Speaker 2: Like I don't want to you know, they are a 908 00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:54,760 statement about a whole group of people. 909 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,079 Speaker 3: But I think this idea that we have to determine 910 00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:03,840 how an animal experience is life is unfair their. 911 00:43:03,679 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 2: Creatures the same way we are. 912 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 3: I don't know, we have so much in common with them, 913 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,920 and that's also such a source of strength, I think. 914 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,679 Speaker 2: In our own lives. And I think it's really cool 915 00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:13,760 that you dedicate your life to that, Like I imagine 916 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,280 it's like extremely moving to feel close to animals, so 917 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,039 that's really cool. 918 00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes it makes it hard to feel close 919 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,880 to people. So that's why I love love doing this 920 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,519 podcast because like you know, when I interview people like you, 921 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,239 we have the same like love and respect for wild life. 922 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,880 So you know, sometimes we're talking about people who might 923 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,320 not share the same love or respect. But I'm hoping 924 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,199 through this podcast that like, if people are experiencing conflicts 925 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,880 with like bears and coyotes, they can come listen gain 926 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,280 insight on how to make it like make their conflicts 927 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,679 better easier, but also come away caring more about the 928 00:43:48,679 --> 00:43:51,000 things that we talked about, like having more compassion like 929 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,239 we were just talking about. So that's the goal. 930 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 2: But we'll see, yeah, and I hope, I hope. 931 00:43:57,519 --> 00:44:00,599 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm going to share this episode with my followers, 932 00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:02,480 but I really hope that people who listen to our 933 00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:05,360 series also come and listen to your show because it's 934 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,280 like so solutions oriented and I think a lot of 935 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,280 people people want to live in peace and in a 936 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,840 good coexistence with animals, and I think some and there 937 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,320 are people who are just looking for more information, and 938 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,079 I think it's awesome that you provide that for folks. 939 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: Ah, thank you. I tried to pretty hard, all right, 940 00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:26,280 So let's wrap up just one last fun question. What 941 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,719 has been your favorite project that you've worked on in 942 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:29,639 your career so far. 943 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 3: I don't really have an answer to that, but I 944 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,519 think the story. I did a story once when I 945 00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:37,320 worked at leat you know usay about whether Latino's crime 946 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,199 more and it's sort of it was like kind of 947 00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:42,199 like a silly question but then like led to like 948 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,039 an interesting socio historical look at like what. 949 00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:48,079 Speaker 2: Crying has meant in Latin America and here in the US. 950 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,119 Speaker 3: And it felt like the story that most embodied like 951 00:44:52,159 --> 00:44:55,119 my voice, And so I think, like I'm very interested 952 00:44:55,159 --> 00:44:59,679 in social histories of people, and like that was what 953 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,920 I think so cool about this Predator series also is 954 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,239 that like really we're telling the story of these different predators, 955 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,039 but it's like a way of like how humans have 956 00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:10,519 interpreted these things throughout time. I think it's very interesting 957 00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:14,280 to me how we take on symbols and or objects 958 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,199 or things outside of like our human experience and interpret them. 959 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,920 Like I also did a series about Barbie last year 960 00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:22,159 during the Barbie movie, and I learned so much about 961 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:24,719 like how Barbie was created and what that meant. And 962 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,559 so I'm really interested in sort of like the history 963 00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:29,159 of yeah, the history of symbols. So I think it's 964 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,519 the history of crying was really interesting to me. Yeah, 965 00:45:32,639 --> 00:45:34,039 so it's kind of fitting that you cried at the 966 00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:34,519 end of the day. 967 00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:36,639 Speaker 1: I know that I was just gonna say, we couldn't 968 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:41,559 have planned that better. Okay, well, thank you so much 969 00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:43,719 for doing this. Let us know where people can find 970 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,719 you or find your work, and also where they can 971 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,239 find the podcast series that we've been talking about. 972 00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:52,320 Speaker 3: So Imperfect Paradise is anywhere you get your podcasts. I 973 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,199 have personally so on Spotify and this series is called Lines, 974 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,280 Coyotes and Bears. I highly recommend it and you can 975 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,840 find me on Twitter at Antonia a n t O 976 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,199 Nia ce r E. 977 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hope people listen to a pert of 978 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:08,639 Paris perfect. 979 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And that was my interview with Antonia. 980 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,960 I know this was kind of a different get on 981 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,840 a live episode, but I really loved how conversational it 982 00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:24,679 was and Nope, I did not expect to cry. Once again, 983 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,119 I highly encourage you all to listen to in Perfect 984 00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:30,119 Paradise if you haven't yet. Antonia and her whole team 985 00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:33,440 did an incredible job in this series. Even if you 986 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,880 don't live in California, it is still super interesting. And 987 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,199 I swear I am not just saying that because Antonio 988 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,800 was on. I really really liked the whole series. So 989 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,480 we very briefly touched on the fatal attack of Kelly 990 00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:47,920 Keene by a coyote in Los Angeles, California, back in 991 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,039 the eighties, and of course their episode on Coyotes goes 992 00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:54,280 more into it and has some audio clips of Kelly's 993 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,039 mom from that time, basically defending herself against people saying 994 00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:00,920 that she killed her daughter. But I'm going to make 995 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,280 a free blog post on Patreon and on our website 996 00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:07,920 and you can check that out for details in the attack, 997 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,039 But of course check out the Imperfect Paradise Coyote episode 998 00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:14,400 as well. Also in the episode description of course list 999 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,360 where you can find Antonia and the podcast series. As 1000 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,960 for our next episode, because I'm getting married in the 1001 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,840 next few weeks, the next episode on our main feed 1002 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,400 will actually be me on a different podcast that I 1003 00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:29,079 won't spoil just yet, but we'll be talking about wildlife 1004 00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:31,320 forensic science, which is the thing I'm currently getting a 1005 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,000 master's degree in so stay tuned for that. Otherwise, I'll 1006 00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:37,960 be back in October for an old fashioned get at 1007 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,880 a live episode about animals attacking people and what we 1008 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,639 can do to stop that from happening. I know I 1009 00:47:43,679 --> 00:47:46,719 say it often, but sincerely, thank you all so much 1010 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,519 for listening and for your kind words, comments and messages. 1011 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,280 I read them all. I appreciate you. Thank you for listening. 1012 00:47:55,199 --> 00:47:57,800 Thank you also to my good friend and second grade husband, 1013 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,440 Josh Walsh for making our intro music. Who forgotten a 1014 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,360 few times now, but I think he knows that he 1015 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,880 has loved. And a huge thank you to Jesse Walsh, 1016 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,800 his brother, for editing this episode. All right, everyone, I 1017 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,599 will see you in a few weeks for our next episode, 1018 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,239 right before my big day. Thank you all.