WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:05.719 Agree with like if it's a package deal. So to me, 2 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:08.679 it's perfectly befitting that if she's the new Eve, she 3 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:12.880 would be like Eve, and instead of being a fallen 4 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:17.120 creature in the sense of actual sin, she would be 5 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:23.000 preserved from that, like Eve would have been had she 6 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:26.960 not sinned. So I think it's a consequence of her 7 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.920 as the mother of God that she was preserved from that, 8 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:35.359 so that she could be in that intimate, special role 9 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.200 of being the one that gave birth to the Son 10 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.320 of God and gave to him his human nature and 11 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:46.640 so forth. But if we think about sin as a 12 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:49.600 specific act and not as a state of being, as 13 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.159 most Calvinists and reform people do. They think of sin 14 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:56.000 as a state of being, it's not. It's defined as James, 15 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.159 excuse me by James, as an action of the will. 16 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:02.719 There's another reason why infants aren't quote sinners, because infants 17 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.280 don't commit actual sins. They don't commit sins of the will. 18 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.319 The only sense in which an infant is a quote 19 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:12.159 center is that they are deprived of the grace of 20 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.359 Eden and they are fallen, and so they feel the 21 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.920 effects of the sin. And sometimes Paul speaks of that 22 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.400 whole class of human beings under the descent of adam 23 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.400 as in sin. That does not equate to them being 24 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:30.760 actual sinners. It equates to them having the effects of sin. 25 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:36.799 So this is and literally no one believes this anymore, 26 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.640 that infants are damned except Calvinists. Roman Catholics don't believe 27 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:45.159 that infants are have inherited guilt. Maybe Lutherans do, I'm 28 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:47.640 not sure, but there's literally no one else that believes 29 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.719 this except for Calvinists. So you're not going to be 30 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.239 Orthodox or Catholic if you believe that infants have actual sin, 31 00:01:53.280 --> 00:02:16.319 which is kind of stupid if you think about it. Yep, 32 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:31.039 go ahead, Africa, you've made all these videos about me. 33 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:38.960 Go ahead. I guess you can't get an internet connection 34 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:45.719 because he keeps dropping off Africa without borders. Go ahead. 35 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.759 I'm guessing your internet doesn't work, dude, I don't know, James. 36 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:06.120 Yeah, I'd like to talk about fruits of the spirit 37 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.639 is defined in the Epistle of the Glicians, and why 38 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.960 you seem to think they're optional and deride them as 39 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.560 what was the term you use, like piety signaling, like. 40 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:17.800 The I'd like you to explain that. 41 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.879 So why what does that have to do with today's discussion? 42 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:28.080 You defended mocking and demeaning people with a petty of 43 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.039 use and imitation. 44 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.919 Right, How pious are you? Are you praying right now? 45 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:39.240 Are you capable of? 46 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:41.800 Are you? Are you? Are you on the internet to 47 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.400 talk about how much you pray? 48 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:46.639 I just told you why I am on the internet 49 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:47.360 and asking. 50 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.439 You these questions? Is that right? Is that right? Do 51 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:52.240 you have the fruits of the spirit right now? 52 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:57.240 You have nothing to say? 53 00:03:57.719 --> 00:03:57.919 Yeah? 54 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:03.479 I can't defend myself against point millers like yourself. You're 55 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.039 the most plious Orthodox person on the web right. 56 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.960 Now, so pas they can like read the Bible. Well, 57 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:14.360 you know, but you're a malignant narcissist people. 58 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.199 Is that right? Is that right? 59 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:18.040 Yeah? 60 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:18.639 It is right? 61 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.000 Can you demonstrate that I'm a malignant narcissist? 62 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:21.920 Oh? 63 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.240 You do that for me actually by opening your mouth? 64 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.720 Yeah, so you spew all this venom, but I'm a 65 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:29.120 malignant narcissist. 66 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.519 Well, two things can be true simultaneously. I mean, perhaps 67 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:34.160 you can fund. 68 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:36.720 You can spew a venom. You just admited the here's 69 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:43.160 being venom? Is that afraard of the spirit speing venom? 70 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.680 Silence only you are entitled. 71 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:47.839 Well, I mean I. 72 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:52.199 Don't think jugs are being venom. 73 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:54.439 I mean you've refused to defend your position and you've 74 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:55.879 refuse to explain yourself. 75 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:58.759 You just I don't even think you're a real person. 76 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:03.959 I think you're faired. I think you're a faired. I 77 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.800 think you're a faired. You just said that you can 78 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:08.199 spoil all, you can spere all the fenom. 79 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:11.920 Well that this is what cry bullies do. 80 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.399 It's like they don't I'm a cry bully. I mean 81 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:16.920 I'm letting you say all this stuff. How are you? 82 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:17.839 Are you getting bullied? 83 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:26.120 Well, yeah, I think. 84 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:34.360 Sir, Well, we all need to get underneath you so 85 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:36.519 that you can pray over us, so that we have 86 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:49.759 the fruits of the spirit. Go ahead, Hell yeah, Well hello, Jake, what. 87 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:54.800 I on my own? 88 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.000 I wanted to talk about soda scriptures. 89 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.040 I'm sure you do after all your videos. 90 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:07.040 Yeah, just to say that I've watched a lot of 91 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:07.680 your videos. 92 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:09.759 I know you've made a lot of videos. What about it? 93 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:13.759 And I found it helpful going to speak as corner 94 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:21.360 to use peace of positionism mm hmm yeah, solar scriptura. 95 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:27.519 My first point is when we look at Jesus. Did 96 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.839 Jesus use tradition in the way that you would envision 97 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.240 it in your definition of tradition? 98 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:35.120 Yes? 99 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:38.600 Could you show us. 100 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.839 That well he specifically. 101 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.040 Could you give us the Eastern Orthodox definition and then 102 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:44.680 show us. 103 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:48.360 He specifically said that the Word of God was himself 104 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:50.519 and not the books to the Pharisees. 105 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:55.519 No, you're not listening to me. 106 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:56.519 Here we go. 107 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.879 I'm asking you to give me the definition of Orthodox 108 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:02.079 field standing tradition. 109 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.439 Yeah, it's the full revelation, whether containing the written text 110 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:07.480 or the oral preaching of the apostles. 111 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:09.839 How's that okay? 112 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.920 The faith once we're all committed to the saints. 113 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.040 Yeah, no, I think you still don't give it a. 114 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:20.160 Full definition, right, So you go make more YouTube videos? 115 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.839 You're not You're not bringing in the more. 116 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:35.800 Yeah, goodbye. This is a person who just wants content. 117 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.160 He makes endless live streams, talks about soul scriptural that's 118 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:41.879 all he wants to talk about. So I give him 119 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.639 very simple, clear definitions as to what the tradition is 120 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:49.720 the fullness of the divine revelation, written and textual. He 121 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.759 doesn't care. He just wants something to talk about in 122 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.240 his live stream. Does anybody who's a Protestant or disagrees 123 00:07:55.319 --> 00:08:17.959 wants to come on anybody else. There's still fifteen people 124 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.399 or any of you Protestant. They might have an actual 125 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.560 argument today. There's something going on. It's it's a lot 126 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:27.519 of ferile people today. 127 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:35.559 Really, you're remember your nerds is just there. Either fruits 128 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.639 are the spirit or an argument. The fruits are the spirit, 129 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:41.080 fear true, your. 130 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:54.559 Spirit, leaguer, Ligair, Ligair, I'm you. The year of love 131 00:08:54.679 --> 00:09:00.440 is being severely tested. All right? Moving on? Was raising 132 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:10.679 their hand? Lee, Oh my gosh, here we go. I'm mute, 133 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:19.120 and then we'll go to the tridentine Catholic Lee, I'm mute. 134 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:20.919 Yo. 135 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.279 Can you hear me barely? What's up? 136 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:29.360 So I might have a disagreement. Maybe what's your position? 137 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:32.000 Because I was I watched some of your videos and 138 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.559 I was wondering. I heard you say that you don't 139 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:40.039 think that there's reproduction like giving birth in the Escaton? 140 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:43.080 Is that? Did I get that right? 141 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.000 Yeah? Are you a Mormon? 142 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:47.240 No? 143 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:51.519 No, I'm just I'm just agnosticconnessy which one fits best 144 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:56.840 for me? Okay, So if you don't think there's a 145 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:00.600 reproduction in the Escaton, if we go back to Genesis. 146 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:10.080 It actually describes that, however, became painful as a punishment 147 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:10.600 of the fall. 148 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:16.120 It seems like that there is birth, there is reproduction 149 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:19.120 in the Esketon, but it just became painful. 150 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.799 Would you agree with that Eden is not the Esketon? 151 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:29.440 Yeah, but it's a close that's the closest thing that 152 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.360 we can get, right. 153 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.240 That doesn't mean that every feature of Eden carries over 154 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.440 into the Esketon. So it's a non sequitor. 155 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:40.559 Well, we car we care, we can, we carry our 156 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:41.919 bodies with us. 157 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.159 Yeah, but that doesn't mean that everything that our bodies 158 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:48.080 do in the fallen state translates into the same functions 159 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:48.919 in the eternal state. 160 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.480 So then why do you not think that there's reproduction 161 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:53.759 specifically any eston. 162 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:57.440 There's not any reason to think that there is. There's 163 00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:59.639 no tradition or statements that I'm aware of about it. 164 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:02.080 And seems to speak as if we will be like 165 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:06.000 the angels and not being involved in biological quitas. 166 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:09.320 Okay, is there. 167 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.559 When he says that we will be like the angels, 168 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:19.639 not marrying or being given in marriage? 169 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:28.559 Yep ollo, yep, Yeah. 170 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.360 I just have a question. I'm not sure you're familiar 171 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:33.679 with like True Orthodoxy dot Org. I just have a 172 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:36.559 question why they like criticize the toll House, Like is 173 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.200 this like just like them being like unique, just criticizing 174 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:41.399 like personal belief saying it's like the lastmis and heretical, 175 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:43.159 Like how the dominies kind of do like for the 176 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.360 coredemtrics or is there like a historical basis behind like 177 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:47.639 the condemnation. 178 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:47.879 For it that they make. 179 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:51.799 I mean, there's a room for interpretation as to how 180 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:55.600 literal the toll hases out are versus a degree of 181 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.399 symbolic imagery in the iconography or the lives of the 182 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.440 saints and that kind of stuff. But I mean it's 183 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.639 not dogma in the sense of it being spoken of 184 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.120 at a council, but I think it is part of 185 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.039 the Orthodox liturgical mystical tradition. 186 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:14.639 But do you know why that, like other groups like 187 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:16.679 True or than Us, Like, what's the reasoning for like 188 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:17.480 condemning it? 189 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:18.759 Is it because because they look. 190 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:21.039 For anything to try to bring people into their groups 191 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.519 and say that they've got everything wrong in their heretics, 192 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:24.679 so they just look for something. 193 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:27.799 So it's kind of like the Diamond Brothers in a way, 194 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:29.399 like how they can them like the Curry dimtrics and 195 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:30.279 all that like that. 196 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.679 In a sense, yeah, I think that the set of 197 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:37.600 a contests are perfect parallels to I mean, true Orthodoxy 198 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:40.320 is like not even a thing. It's like infinitely smaller 199 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.399 even than traditional Catholicism. It's like a few thousand people 200 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:43.960 on the internet. 201 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.200 So yeah, all right, that was my question. 202 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:52.320 Bro see them man, thank you? Well that didn't that. 203 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.559 He was a lot cooler than I expected. So when 204 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:07.919 I see tradcat, I'm like, oh, no, yep, hello. 205 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.159 Can you hear me? Yep, yeah, Hi. 206 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:18.000 I wanted to come in quite earlier just to address 207 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.080 I know there was someone in the beginning that was 208 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:26.320 asking about the veneration of the model of God, and 209 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:31.240 I wanted it to actually interject and to just add 210 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:40.440 just a quick, a quick quick on this on the scripture, 211 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:44.879 just because I'm not sure if you know, but Jesus 212 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:51.000 himself when he gets his feet, I think his feats. 213 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.440 With by the woman, he. 214 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:00.000 Actually says that that woman, because of what he did 215 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:06.519 it you will be commemorated. Yeah, poor generations. And so 216 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.039 that's that's basically, you know, that's basically what we do. 217 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:16.320 We we we we venerate her and we celebrate. We've 218 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:19.879 got our own feet day with her. If you know, 219 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.480 if if that's what Jesus is saying about how we 220 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:29.639 appreciate certain people you have done virtuous acts? 221 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:30.960 Yes, what what? 222 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.679 Why Why couldn't it be you know, the same thing 223 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:38.080 for the Virgin Mary, you know, the Mother of God, 224 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:43.879 who is you know, almost infinitely more blessed and virtuous. 225 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.240 Than the. 226 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.759 Woman. That's actually a great point. I appreciate that. Yeah, 227 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:50.440 and and and if you think about it too, it's 228 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.720 also kind of an indirect argument for liturgy and the 229 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:00.399 beauty of the worship of God. Right, Jesus rebukes the 230 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:06.480 other woman for fussing about the costly oil of spikenard. 231 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:11.879 So no, we should have honor and worship for God, 232 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:16.399 and there's nothing wrong with it being done in a beautiful, 233 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:26.559 esthetically pleasing way. Priest Haka, this is a black Eber Israelite. 234 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:34.799 My main man, Jay, can you hear me? Yeah, I 235 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:37.519 was just trying to see because I did a video. 236 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:38.600 Well, I did. 237 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:42.320 A response video to your video when you were searching 238 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:44.759 us up and you were looking at Captain Saizari. I 239 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.600 gotta believe it was and a few other Israelites in 240 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:48.240 our community. 241 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.759 Are you the one that threatened to whip me until 242 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:51.720 my flesh fell off? 243 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.200 What I remember saying that? 244 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.120 But I mean, are you the guy that did the video? 245 00:15:58.759 --> 00:15:59.919 Well much video? 246 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:02.600 I don't know, the black keeper Israelite guy that did 247 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:04.799 a video call me out. I don't know. I don't 248 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:05.840 know which one you are. 249 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:07.720 I may not be the only one who did a 250 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:09.120 video on you, Okay. 251 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:10.559 So I was just. 252 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.840 Trying to see if you are interested in any form 253 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:14.639 of the base with any leaders in the community. 254 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.919 No, okay, don't worry. Thanks man, appreciate it. 255 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:32.120 I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but it's 256 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:36.360 you know, that's that's like one of the craziest insane 257 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.320 cults I've ever heard of. 258 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:39.720 So I don't. 259 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:41.919 I mean, these are the people who think that the 260 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:46.200 word Jewish means kind of jew That's what they think. 261 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.399 I'm not joking. That's like that's what they literally, that's 262 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:53.960 their theology, Like they can't do grammar. The cult is 263 00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:03.879 based on not being able to do grammar. Uh huh? 264 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:04.720 Hey how you doing? 265 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:05.039 Jay? 266 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.319 Hey? 267 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:07.039 Everyone else? 268 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.480 Hey Jae, I came here because I'm a Protestant. Well, 269 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.000 I guess you could say former Protestant, but because I've been, 270 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:21.920 you know, converting to Catholicism. But I kind of wanted 271 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:27.880 to ask a question about Easter because I see a 272 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.039 lot of difference and I don't want to know. 273 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:31.319 Your thoughts of philioquey. 274 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:41.640 Okay, go ahead, yeah, so yeah, so do you what's 275 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:42.640 the orthodox position? 276 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:43.119 Do y'all? 277 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:47.640 Do y'all deny that there's any procession of the Holy Spirit. 278 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:47.920 Through the Sun. 279 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.759 No, there is a procession through the Sun, but it 280 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.440 is not his existential hypostatic origin. 281 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.759 Okay, But if it's the case that the Holy Spirit, 282 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:05.880 if it's the case that the Holy Spirit proceeds through 283 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:10.279 the Son, right, then then what really is any difference 284 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.839 between the ultodox position of PHILIOKOI. 285 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:16.160 Are not Philly because that's not the position that's laid 286 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.640 out of the Council of Lions in Florence. That position 287 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.519 says that there's a double eternal hypothetic principle from the 288 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.720 Father and the Son, who function as a single principle 289 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:27.960 of the origin of the Holy Spirit. And that's something 290 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:30.359 that we could never accept because it gets to the son, 291 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:32.960 the unique hypostidic property that identifies the Father. 292 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.160 Well, you would agree that there's going to be a 293 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.319 distinction between being begata and being preceded. 294 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.920 Right, that has nothing to do with what I just said. 295 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.839 Well, yes it does, because the Catholic, like like you said, 296 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:49.160 the Catholic position is going to be that the. 297 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:50.359 Father and the Son is the one. 298 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.039 Principle that the Holy Spirit inspire rates from. 299 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.759 There's nothing that two persons in the Trinity share, as 300 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.640 the Cappadocians say that one lacks, and so you've created 301 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:03.720 a diad. So you reject you created that case because 302 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.799 the Father and the Son are a united principle of 303 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.759 power and causation that the Spirit does not have. So 304 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:13.359 that's an imbalance, that's a diad. 305 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.440 That but that's that's what distinguishes being forgotten or the 306 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.119 Son being forgotten and the and the Spirit being preceded. 307 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:23.119 Right, because of. 308 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.640 The amount of people that takes uh that takes part, 309 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.000 are the amount of persons that take part. 310 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.319 In preceding the Holy Spirit, right, at least. 311 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:34.680 In the Catholic view, Right, we can make the case 312 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.440 that the Holy Spirit truly is preceded and not just 313 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.279 be gotten right from the Father. 314 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.799 So you're repeating Roman Catholic apologetic pap apologetics. That doesn't 315 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.480 even address like the level of which we're talking about 316 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:48.400 this question. So can you repeat to me what my 317 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:49.079 argument was? 318 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:50.680 Yeah? 319 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:53.880 Yeah, Yeah, the argument was that, well, you pretty much 320 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:54.400 just laid out. 321 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:54.720 Of our position. 322 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.400 Then you said that, oh, I've created a diead because 323 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.319 it's going to be like the two persons is the 324 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.240 father and son being the one principle in which, right, 325 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:10.319 the Holy Spirit pretty much originates from or essence from that? 326 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.880 Is that your position? And why is that a problem? 327 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:14.200 Okay? 328 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:15.119 I don't see the problem. 329 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.359 Why did I say that's Why did I say that's 330 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.720 a problem? 331 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:22.319 Well, you said you said it was a problems because 332 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.440 I created a diead, right. 333 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:28.319 And why is that? I said specifically there's a reason why. 334 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.119 Yeah, because the father and the son is the one principle? 335 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:32.960 And why is that a problem? 336 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:35.839 You tell me? 337 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:40.519 Okay? I mean, I'm trying really hard to be patient 338 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.279 with you guys, but like I literally stated explicitly what 339 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.960 the problem is, and you've come with like level one 340 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:48.799 understanding and you want to debate it, which is fine. 341 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.359 I don't mind doing it. But did it never occur 342 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:53.839 to you? Did it ever occur to you to maybe 343 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.960 read some of the arguments on this before you want 344 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:56.799 to debate it? 345 00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.960 Yeah, yeah, I know, so I I what from? 346 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.079 But you can't restate my argument? So you're not Are 347 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.200 you not listening to what I said? Or you just 348 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:05.880 didn't catch it. You want me stated again? 349 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.240 Well, will your position on the matter would be that 350 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:10.880 the Father is the only principle? 351 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:11.119 Right? 352 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.680 And who said that? Anybody in church history? 353 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.480 Well, I mean I'm asking you. 354 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.640 Do you know of any famous church fathers that were 355 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:23.720 involved in any ecumenical councils that maybe said that, I. 356 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.680 Know church fathers that believe in Philly open Do you yeah, Augustine, 357 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:29.559 mm hmm? 358 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:33.720 Do you accept that or do you deny that? 359 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:38.799 No? I mean I don't accept his teaching. No, it's wrong. 360 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.240 Oh oh so he does, so he does accept fully absolutely, 361 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.160 But he's the same thing your church. 362 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:47.359 Do you really think that these are owns that we 363 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.359 haven't addressed these arguments probably five hundred times? I mean. 364 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.519 No, I mean that's I know the coopium that you 365 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:55.079 guys use. 366 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.440 So let's let's get into that, all right, you want 367 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.480 to do this, let's do it. What council confirmed the 368 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:05.200 Doctor of the Trinity for the Universal Church the council. 369 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:05.759 I see that. 370 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:07.519 No, so you see, you don't even know the first 371 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:09.559 of this. You don't even know level one of this debate. 372 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.400 It's the second Econmoical Council. Who are the three fathers 373 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:14.720 that are the most important of the second Ecamoical Council? 374 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:17.000 The second was. 375 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.839 So you don't know anything, and you're trying to debate. 376 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:25.759 Are you talking about the goal of Philio exactly? 377 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:28.400 So you don't even know the Cappadocian doctrine of the 378 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.640 trinity that's outlined at constant double one. 379 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.839 I don't know. I mean, I is it like monarch correct? 380 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:42.920 Yes? Yeah, yeah, And that's not a filioquy doctrine because 381 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:46.599 tell me what the hypostatic property of the father is? 382 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.960 The hypostatic property. 383 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.039 So you don't even know the basic Cappadocian terms. You 384 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.119 don't even know our basic position, and you're trying to 385 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:56.319 argue with me and call it you call it code. 386 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.559 To tell you, Yeah, the hyposthetic property of the father 387 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.599 is that he's the one that again he's he's the 388 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.200 one principal, right. 389 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.000 Oh, he's the one principal. But you just said a 390 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:10.880 minute ago that you agree that the son is also 391 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.000 a co principal with him, so he's not the one principal. 392 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:16.000 How many principles are how many principles are there? 393 00:23:16.039 --> 00:23:17.599 We believe there's one principal. 394 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.119 No you don't. You believe there's one. And you contradicted 395 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:21.920 by saying that the father and the son together are 396 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:23.240 a principal. That's two. 397 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.359 Yeah, that's that's the one principle. It's not gonna be 398 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:26.119 two principles. 399 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.039 You just said the father is the principal, and then 400 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:29.680 you said the father and the son are a principal. 401 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:32.119 That's two. Can you count the father? 402 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:36.960 And what do you this dowel argument? 403 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.039 Are you this dumb? You don't even know our position? 404 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.799 You said, you said the father is the principal, right. 405 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.759 The father and the son are the one principal. 406 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.039 At first you said the father is the principle. I 407 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:50.960 asked you his hyposthetic property. You said it was to 408 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.400 be the principal. That's just hype. Well yeah, you said that, 409 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.480 don't lie you said that, yeah, no. 410 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.079 Yeah, yeah, I understand that the father is going to 411 00:23:59.119 --> 00:23:59.799 be the principal. 412 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.720 Oh, then there you go. Now you contradicted because the 413 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.400 father and the son together are now a principal. That's 414 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.680 the problem. So that's two principles. 415 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.359 I never negated that the son is a principle. 416 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.480 If the father is the principle and the son also 417 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.960 with him, is also a principle, that's two. 418 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:21.480 Well, I don't know, they're both the same principle. 419 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:24.119 Okay, now you're motal. Now you're a modalist because now 420 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:26.359 you've said the father and the son together are a principle. 421 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:27.720 That's modalism. 422 00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:28.880 How does that follow? 423 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.799 Because that's the argument that the Cappadocians made against the Eunomians. 424 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.039 You're confusing hyposthetic properties with common powers and energies. 425 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:40.680 Where are you getting this notion from? 426 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:43.480 Have you read Basil on the Holy Spirit? Have you 427 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:44.799 read Basil against Eunomius? 428 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.799 Oh, same Basil against sat basilik. 429 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.039 As what you would be? I thought you knew all 430 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:56.079 this stuff. You're not familiar with those works Basil on 431 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.839 the Holy Spirit and Basil against Unamias. Have you read those? 432 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:02.920 I guess amousious don't even know the word what. 433 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:09.319 Doesnious anonymious? 434 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:11.440 So you're not even familiar with this. You're not familiar 435 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:14.960 with it? Is you're a clown that because it shows 436 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:16.839 that you're not familiar with the literature, and you're trying 437 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:17.440 to debate it. 438 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.440 Why that's not true? 439 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.960 True, you don't know the terms. You're demonstrating your ignorance 440 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.119 of the whole scope of this. 441 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:27.799 Oh, because I pronounce wrong? 442 00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:30.680 No, it means that you're not familiar with the literature. 443 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:32.319 You couldn't even tell me two of the works. 444 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:33.880 This is no. 445 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.559 No, have you read this? Have you read this literature? 446 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:40.599 Have you read this literature? 447 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:42.880 Uh? 448 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:43.839 The literature? 449 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.559 Onsous? 450 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.480 Why does that matter? Can you show me where? 451 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:51.960 Because it shows that you don't. It shows that you're 452 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:53.680 not familiar with the topic. You don't know to pronounce 453 00:25:53.720 --> 00:26:00.640 the basic terms, right. No, No, you're about to cry, dude, Like, Look, 454 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.240 it would be whove you to go and understand this 455 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.319 stuff before you try to debate it. And you did 456 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:06.039 come here to debate. 457 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.839 Can you please just show me where? Saint Basil against. 458 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.680 Who's the who's the soul cause? Who do they argue 459 00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:14.440 is the sole cause? 460 00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:18.119 The soul cause? What do you mean by soul cause? 461 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.079 So you're not, again, not familiar with common terminology throughout 462 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.559 all the cappadotions. Soul cause, soul cause, Father is the 463 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:30.799 sole cause, the Cappidotion dictum. Shut up, shut up, all right, 464 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:32.200 you're gone. 465 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:34.000 Running. 466 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.079 No, you made it a fool of yourself. I'm not 467 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:38.680 running from you. You have no idea what you're talking about. 468 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:42.880 I'm trying to explain it to you. You won't shut up, 469 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:43.960 Shut up, and I'll tell you. 470 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:45.440 That's fine. 471 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:49.440 Sole cause their dictum is anything that is a hypostatic 472 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:54.000 property is unique to the person's and non communicable or shareable. 473 00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:57.559 Anything that is not a hypostatic property is common to 474 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.000 all three. That's a cappadoc dictum. That's why the Philioko 475 00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.400 is wrong, according to the Cappadocians, because the father's principle 476 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:08.599 what picks him out his hypostatic property is to be 477 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:14.960 soul s o l e cause rka fount principle. Yea, 478 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.880 all it does because it means that what he has 479 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:24.640 that marks him out cannot be shared. That's the Cappadocian dictum. 480 00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:27.279 Well, yeah, well, the thing that marks them. 481 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:32.559 Out is no, it does not relation itself. Is a predicate, 482 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:38.160 not a subject. Persons are subjects, not relations. Yeah, but 483 00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:41.480 that's so you would know that if you've read the Cappadocians, 484 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:43.079 So you have no knowledge of this topic, and you're 485 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.519 trying to debate what does persona at rola mean? 486 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:51.440 Oh? Now he wants Now he wants to speak Greek. 487 00:27:52.759 --> 00:28:00.359 Persona at rolatio's Latin, you idiot. Oh and I don't 488 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:02.759 know Latin. I don't care about Latin. But this guy 489 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.359 just showed a. This is the arrogance of these people, 490 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.680 no knowledge of these topics. They want to debate it. 491 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.319 Persona at rolatio is aquinas is dictum, person is relation. 492 00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:15.839 So the first person to say that is that I'm 493 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.680 aware of is perhaps Augustine, but at least for sure aquinas. 494 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.079 I'm looking for people who disagree. Dank, It's about to 495 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:33.359 get smoky up in here. The Greek dictum persona at rolatio. 496 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:38.839 Oh hell, Hellulu. 497 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:41.400 Is too there? 498 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:42.839 Can you yep? 499 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:44.400 Hi about? 500 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:44.839 How are you doing? 501 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:48.920 I'm here? What's up? 502 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:54.759 I just wanted to talk about you with the Exodus? 503 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.599 Are you familiar with it? 504 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:56.799 To the Old Testaments? 505 00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:59.440 I've never read at what's it about? 506 00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:01.680 Well? 507 00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:06.240 I only know a few quotes from it, and I 508 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.319 wanted to debate you about it. 509 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.559 I personally I don't identify with any religion. I would 510 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:14.000 say maybe agnostic. 511 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.039 How about we debate agnosticism. 512 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.160 We can debate agnosticism. Sure, I just wanted to ask 513 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:24.440 you your stance on for example, Exodus twenty one seven. 514 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:30.400 I don't know if you're familiar with it, let me 515 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:30.880 pull it up. 516 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:38.680 Sure, sure, sure, sure, yeah sure. Also I'm really a 517 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:39.680 beginner to all of this. 518 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:47.519 So I arse right, yeah, you know what. 519 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:50.279 I don't even just the laugh is already that I 520 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:51.680 don't do, the condescending laugh. 521 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:53.720 So whoa what do you mean? 522 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.400 I can't do it? That's my number one pat peeve 523 00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.480 is that condescending laugh? And if you repeat my name 524 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:02.880 over never never Ryan so Exous twenty one seven. If 525 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.960 a man sells his daughter to be a slave, she 526 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:08.720 shall not go out as the male slaves do so. 527 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:12.680 At a time when there were people as property, this 528 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:15.240 is putting stricters on what you can do with humans 529 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.200 that you have as property. And this is a unique 530 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:25.400 revolutionary principle in the ancient world to introduce the ideas 531 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:29.160 that slaves have rights, have dignity, and they cannot be abused. 532 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.599 And you'll find that all throughout mosaic law. So I 533 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:35.039 don't like, don't waste my time with this stupid Reddit 534 00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:39.200 level stuff of how God's a evil, mean person or something. Ryan, 535 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:42.160 what's up, hey, J can you hear me? Yep? 536 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:43.799 Cool. 537 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.759 So I'm a relatively new Christian. I've been attending a 538 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:53.000 reform Baptist church. This was before I really knew anything 539 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:58.559 about reform theology, specifically Calvinism, and since I've actually been 540 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:03.960 turning away from Symtism in exploring Orthodoxy. But something that 541 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:09.359 within Calvinism that was appealing to me or something that 542 00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:14.240 made sense, was this idea of God's total sovereignty. And 543 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:21.079 I'm wondering from an Orthodox perspective, how you would square 544 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:27.039 God's sovereignty with you know, with man's free will or 545 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:29.640 or you know, versus like Christ Timothy two four, where 546 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:31.319 God desires all people to be saved. 547 00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:35.920 Yeah. So I've done multiple talks critiquing Calvinism at great 548 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:38.680 lengths for multiple hours, so you can go watch those. 549 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.599 I'm not trying to be rude, but like, it's just 550 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:53.839 not like I can't enter into that whole repeat discussion again, Seth. 551 00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.839 There's a two part series on my Cliff channel critique 552 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:09.640 and Calvinism. There's a whole thing on Sam Chimun's channel 553 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.000 critique and Calvinism. There's a whole thing on David Patrick 554 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.400 Carrey Cotel's channel critique and calvinism. So, guys, most of 555 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:17.720 these kinds of questions I don't mind them. I look 556 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.720 for people who disagree. I want a debate. But when 557 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.119 you ask me, what's your opinion on PSA, how do 558 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:26.599 you refute calvinism and predestination and sovereign grace? Like, dude, 559 00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:31.079 there's a million live streams where we have addressed this 560 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.319 countless times. I just can't repeat the same argument for 561 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.960 the thousandth time and go through the whole shabang again. Matt, 562 00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:48.720 what's up? People are saying, turn on super chouts on 563 00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:53.079 your channel. Bro, use stream labs. I got demonetized in 564 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.160 twenty eighteen. There's no super chats on my channel. That's 565 00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:59.119 why you use stream labs. Right here, go to stream 566 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:04.200 labs and feel free. Twitter tonight is like TikTok used 567 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.079 to be. TikTok used to be like just the most 568 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:13.039 just brain to just drive you insane level of debating. 569 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:19.839 What's up, Mankja. Yeah. 570 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.799 So, one thing that I've heard from Orthodox as far 571 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:27.400 as veneration of icons is that the ability to venery 572 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:33.160 icons occurs through the incarnation of Christ. But at the 573 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:36.519 same time, I'm looking at some of the stuff around, 574 00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:41.079 like Christ's existence before, So looking at like the hymn 575 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.079 of where it says like the that shall kiss the 576 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:45.519 feet of. 577 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:50.200 Those who tried in Eden. So just trying to understand, like. 578 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.160 Where is there what what's the reasoning behind that delineation. 579 00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:57.000 Hymn of what? I don't know what you're talking about? 580 00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:02.200 I'm sorry, what understanding is? It gets sung on on 581 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.119 Holy Wednesday? 582 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:05.400 And what now? 583 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:07.079 Uh? 584 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:11.239 Just talking about the the presence of Christ's physical body 585 00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:12.599 before his incarnation? 586 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.519 How could he have a what? I don't know what 587 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.480 that means? The presence of his physical body before the incarnation? Sure, 588 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.440 so like what are you talking about? 589 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:24.639 Yeah, I guess it would. 590 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.639 It's hard, That's what Maybe where I'm trying to understand 591 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.639 of Like is this a theophany or it's talking about 592 00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:33.440 like a as far as I understand, like the icon 593 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:37.719 of Christ, where it's uh him making Adam Adam has 594 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.440 the same body as as Christ does. 595 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:46.920 Essentially, Yeah, Adam is created after the prototype, after the 596 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:48.000 pattern of Christ. 597 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.760 Right, So I guess in that case, where is it 598 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.079 Like why would icons not be Okay? Then before the 599 00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:58.199 incarnation or is it just based on the that the 600 00:34:58.239 --> 00:34:59.119 incarnation happens. 601 00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:01.800 I mean, there are any of types of icons prior 602 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:03.360 to the incarnation, So I don't know what you mean. 603 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.280 I mean, when you read the Bible and it describes 604 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:12.360 through written texts and sentences theophanies, those are created symbols 605 00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:17.519 that are referring to theophanies. And the Torah itself is 606 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.119 a holy book. The Temple had all kinds of images. 607 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:24.320 The arc is a kind of a icon. 608 00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:28.880 Yeah, I guess, I mean specifically of God versus of 609 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:30.679 holy things. 610 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:32.639 And maybe there's not a good reason. 611 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:34.360 To do well. The reason according to like when this 612 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:36.599 comes up at the time of the seventh that Cumunical Council, 613 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.880 the reasoning is that the incarnation hadn't happened yet. 614 00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:42.800 Yeah, it's so maybe that's where I'm trying to draw 615 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:48.719 the distinction of though the incarnation hadn't happened. Maybe this 616 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:51.760 is where I'm getting the confusion. Like, so we're saying 617 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.440 Theophanes before, even though it's the incarnation's the moment of 618 00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:59.840 those that same body being recognized in the past. 619 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.599 No, I'm not sure that that is the case, because 620 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:08.599 there's not just Theophanes that are quote body. I mean, 621 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:13.559 there's Theophanes that are the form of the cloud, the fire. 622 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:18.480 I mean, it's not just a you know, man like 623 00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:22.840 image like the wrestling with the Jacob, russels with the Angel. 624 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:25.440 Yeah. 625 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.519 So in other words, we can't say that it's Christ's 626 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:32.800 human body back in time or something like that, at 627 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.800 least not in all of them. 628 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:38.119 I've heard from a variety of sources that it's like that. 629 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:41.360 The concept is that it is Christ's human body, because 630 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:42.599 God exists outside of. 631 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:43.320 Time, right. 632 00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.559 So I'm aware of this, and I think Bishop Irena 633 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.159 has the opinion that you could say that the prototype 634 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.639 is the deified, out of time, resurrected flesh of Christ. 635 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:54.360 I'm aware of all that. But I'm making a different point, 636 00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:56.559 which is that that's not the only theophany that we 637 00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:58.880 see in the Old Testament. We see the cloud, we 638 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.119 see the fire, we see all that kind of stuff 639 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.320 which is not a body. I mean, it's not a physical, 640 00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:06.960 not a manlike body. So the theophonies are mysteries. We 641 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:08.599 don't know how God does that. 642 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:10.719 No, I can understand that. 643 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.360 It's more just trying to understand how the argumentation then 644 00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:18.559 goes of of if the glorified body is recognized before 645 00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:19.199 the incarnation. 646 00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:21.800 Well, I'm not. I don't. I've never I've never argued that. 647 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:27.079 Okay, yeah, some so it's some argue. But maybe that's 648 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:27.760 not your line. 649 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.119 That's not my line of reasoning because I don't think 650 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:33.440 it's it's intended to solve this question. And if you 651 00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:36.719 if I bring in cloud and fire, it doesn't solve 652 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:37.079 a question. 653 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:49.599 So Okay, No, that's helpful, thanks. 654 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.840 Fair question. And I'm not trying to be dismissive. I 655 00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:50.960 just I don't. I don't know. I mean, I think 656 00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:54.920 there's when we get into these mysteries like that, I 657 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:58.119 think there's limitations of like what we do and don't 658 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:10.000 know you know, Oh my gosh, Okay. 659 00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:13.800 Hey, j Yeah, how's it going? 660 00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:14.079 Hey? 661 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:15.960 I just want to ask, why do you think the 662 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:17.039 Holy Spirit is God? 663 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.800 Because he's all throughout the Old Testament as a personal being, 664 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.679 and he's all throughout the New Testament John fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, 665 00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:27.760 et cetera, and acts and the epistles as a personal being. 666 00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:30.880 Well, I think that he could be a being that 667 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:31.559 I don't think. 668 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:32.000 That he's God. 669 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:34.679 Well, I mean he's called God, and. 670 00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:35.440 Where would that be. 671 00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:51.039 See my position is that Jesus and the Father of God, 672 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:53.840 but the Holy Spirit cannot be goped. 673 00:38:54.440 --> 00:39:06.599 So there's about i'd say one, two, three, four, six, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, 674 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:07.880 eighteen twenty, it's. 675 00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:14.800 About twenty two three, about twenty five passages throughout the 676 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.199 Old Testament that refer to him as Yahweh and as God. 677 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.519 Well, look whatever you and the Roman Catholic teach, I 678 00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:21.079 don't accept. 679 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.559 I don't care that. I mean, I just list you 680 00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:25.400 wanted the passages you want to go through one by 681 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.840 one or what? Oh he ran away? So there you go, 682 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:33.159 Biblical benitarianism. So lunatic heretic who doesn't want to go 683 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.239 through twenty five passages I have right here in front 684 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.719 of me that refer to in the Old Testament the 685 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:40.840 deity of the Holy Spirit and that he is Yeahweh. 686 00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:47.320 And so what do you do? He ran And for 687 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:49.880 those that would like those passages here, okay, do you're 688 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:55.639 right here? Almost all these are Old Testament references. So 689 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.159 here you go. 690 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.360 If you want to, you can screenshot that. There is 691 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:08.199 at least twenty five references right there too. The full 692 00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.119 deity in personhood of the Holy Spirit. And once you 693 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:16.119 have this ready to go, what a heretics do? 694 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:21.760 They run? So we're looking tonight. I know a lot 695 00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:23.960 of you guys want to bring Orthodox questions. I'm looking 696 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.519 for people who disagree. You know a lot of people 697 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:31.039 want to come get their FAQ questions answered. They don't 698 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:33.000 want to read the books. They want to be lazy guys. 699 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:36.719 Go to the church. Go get catechized in the church. 700 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:42.639 I'm not your catechizer. I'm an Internet clown. So don't 701 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:47.400 come to me for catechistis find an Orthodox church and 702 00:40:47.519 --> 00:41:01.840 do that. And now this guy wants to come back, 703 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:09.199 so it's a waste of time. You'll notice that none 704 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:20.159 of the Protestants showed up. Interesting I message. I'll see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, 705 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:26.000 eight Protestants today. That's d MS. I'm not I don't 706 00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:27.800 know a lot about old believers. Man, that's not your 707 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:32.679 that's not my I'm sorry, man, it's just not I'm 708 00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:35.800 not a historian on old believers, and that's not my domain. 709 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:59.800 In Schultz, go ahead, I'm you. If we're going keep 710 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:01.519 it budget, why won't you debate? 711 00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:01.760 Budge? 712 00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.559 So I've sent multiple dms to voice of reason. I 713 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.639 don't know if he just ignores dms, but why does it? 714 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:08.840 Right? 715 00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:11.960 Yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry, Yeah, I have a question. 716 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:16.519 I'm I'm currently considering orthodox I want to argue against 717 00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:17.880 my friends. 718 00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:20.920 One of my friends has an argument for logic. 719 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:24.599 He says that logic just is an abstraction of the 720 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.840 physical So what is the argument you would use to 721 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:29.559 kind of dismantle that? 722 00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:32.360 And well, that's an assertion, that's an assertion. Just saying 723 00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:35.000 it just is an abstraction really doesn't tell us anything. 724 00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:37.360 How does he know that? And what does it mean 725 00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:38.960 to say that it's an abstract? Does it mean that 726 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.079 it has an actual ontological status? Does it is an 727 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.559 invariant over time? Does it change? I mean, like that 728 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.400 doesn't really tell us anything. That's an assertion, And how 729 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:55.039 does that work? Like how do you abstract something from 730 00:42:55.480 --> 00:43:00.639 molecules that you're saying is somehow an invariant? Imaatey real law? 731 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:01.599 Is it law? 732 00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:01.880 Like? 733 00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:06.000 How is something law? Like if matter is always in motion? 734 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:09.480 Well, I think the argument he would say is that 735 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.079 there's the laws of physics, except it derives from that, 736 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:14.920 Like it's just a. 737 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.440 Yeah, But saying that it derives from. It is not 738 00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:20.000 answering what the law is and how does he know 739 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.800 that it's a law? Is it universal on what basis? 740 00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:27.039 So you can't when people are doing this kind of stuff, 741 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.559 and when you're debating with people, you can't let them 742 00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:32.800 get away with assertions. Everybody wants to debate, and I'm 743 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:34.639 an experienced debater. I don't care if you hate me 744 00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:36.360 or not. Like I am an experienced debater. I've been 745 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:40.719 debating since age nineteen and that was I don't know, 746 00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.320 a long time ago. So people in debates they want 747 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:47.559 to assert positions and move and blow past it. But 748 00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:50.400 you got to as a debater, be like, wait a minute, 749 00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.079 that's an assertion. You're just saying that it is this 750 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.320 like you're some sort of dogmatic pronunciation from the papal 751 00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:00.320 throne of logic or something. What is that mean? How 752 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.800 do we know that that's the case. What's your justification 753 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:06.400 for the desertion? Those are metaphysical claims. Logic just is 754 00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:10.159 an abstraction from federal called objects. That doesn't tell us 755 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.760 how you got to that step, what that is, what 756 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.519 the justification for it is, how it is? It's just 757 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:19.440 an assertion, what just happened? 758 00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:20.039 Nice one? 759 00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:25.000 Hello, Yeah, man, I'm sorry. I'm not gonna repeat all that. 760 00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.840 You can go back and rewind or something. Not repeating 761 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:28.159 all that. 762 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:35.599 I love how atheists they just stay there like it's 763 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:36.719 just like we all know. 764 00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:37.679 We all know this. 765 00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:41.760 Yeah, it's abundantly clear that this is the case. Even 766 00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:43.840 though it's like the most highly debated thing ever. 767 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:48.320 Its little abundantly clearer. All rational people believe in my position. 768 00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:58.000 Go ahead, Well, I don't know. I thought there was 769 00:44:58.039 --> 00:44:59.719 a dude here. Well you're you're free to go ahead 770 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:00.840 as well. Well if you want to. 771 00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:05.920 I'm free, yes, free to do what I wow any 772 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:06.599 old time. 773 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:11.119 It's just so stupid because like most people see on here, 774 00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:15.079 they're not even familiar with the literature that like, first 775 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.639 of all, you can't reduce. 776 00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.960 Suppose you weren't a platonic realist or something like. 777 00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:24.840 That, where or like like a position like ours that 778 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:28.039 they're actually transcendent laws of logic and stuff like let's 779 00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:30.280 say you're oristitos conceptualist. 780 00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:39.119 It's still objective and you can't reduce. What's so funny 781 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.000 is that categorically it just doesn't even make sense. 782 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:46.440 Universals are not particulars. So there's no way that you 783 00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:47.719 can actually. 784 00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:53.360 Take particulars and make, you know, and reduce it, sorry, 785 00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.519 take abstractions, diversals and just say, well, it's identical to 786 00:45:57.559 --> 00:45:58.599 the opposite thing that. 787 00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:02.519 It is exactly. It's just like it's nonsensical just by 788 00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:07.280 the meaning of the words, right. It's like that Roman 789 00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:09.880 Catholic guy that was in here saying that created grace 790 00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:11.639 is uncreated. 791 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:15.800 Usurper the creature. 792 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.280 Yeah, created Grace is a creature, but it's God. So 793 00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:20.559 there's a created God. 794 00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:23.599 But by the way, check out. 795 00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:29.000 E Polamists are polytheists, but there's created God. 796 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:33.280 It's a good argument against them. 797 00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:35.119 Actually, what's up? 798 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:37.679 Herry? 799 00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:38.079 What was up? 800 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:38.320 Jay? 801 00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:43.519 So so generally speaks not for so much a Protestant 802 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:48.440 question per se, but I just wanted to ask in terms. 803 00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:55.360 Of the the the liturgical tradition of the Orthodox Church, 804 00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:00.159 if that's something you're into, uh. 805 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:03.440 Uh yeah, I mean I am somewhat. I'm not a 806 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:10.239 liturgical scholar, but I'm interested in Orthodox liturgy right right. 807 00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:12.679 So it's just so it's just curious. I mean, if 808 00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:15.920 you won't, well you say you know so much school, 809 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:20.280 but I wanted to know about how it's musical tradition 810 00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:26.079 sort of developed distinctly through the sort of Gregorian Chian system, 811 00:47:26.119 --> 00:47:27.480 which the. 812 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:32.840 Music, Yeah that I don't know much about. You could. Uh, 813 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:36.960 there's a guy on here named Pano. Pano is a 814 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:42.400 chanter and knows a lot about Orthodox musical history. He 815 00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:59.239 would know a lot more than me. Joe, God's forgive 816 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.000 me five dollars. You of low gain on your microphone. Well, 817 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.119 I'll try to turn it down because the last time 818 00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:06.719 when we were traveling down here, it got jacked all 819 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:08.480 the way up in the last live stream, which was 820 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:10.800 a fun live stream, it got all all out of 821 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.599 whack and it sounded like crap. So I turned it 822 00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:14.800 way down, but I tried to get it in the 823 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:17.719 mid zone. So it doesn't my Does the audio sound 824 00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:20.880 better tonight? Is it right? Do I need to do 825 00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:24.320 a little different? Verrilla? The second ten dollars give us 826 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:29.559 an impression of a MAGA influencer chick who's like, look 827 00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:34.000 at my boobies. I love trumpling at my babies. How's that? 828 00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:37.639 Is that what you wanted? Strange and bizarre at three dollars. 829 00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:41.800 Don't call them Calvinists, just call them heretics jumble one 830 00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:46.639 of four dollars. Manifest manifects your dreams. Dog. Hey, if 831 00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:48.840 you got the one ring, you can manifest your dreams. 832 00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.559 What's up, Joe, you want to talk? I'm you. 833 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:56.840 I'm hey Jay. I'm kind of a new listener. 834 00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.519 So I just had a question for you, uh, in 835 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:03.239 terms of the Western Right Orthodox Church. I know this 836 00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:06.800 isn't necessarily a Protestant or versus Catholic debate, but my 837 00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:09.559 question for you is online the Western Right Church, I 838 00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:13.320 think it's I wouldn't say demonized, but some people argue 839 00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:16.639 that it's the bridge between the Catholic Church and the 840 00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:19.360 fullness of the faith of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So 841 00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:23.239 do you think the Western Right Church is the fullness 842 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:25.159 of the truth or do you think it is a 843 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:27.039 temporary bridge for converts. 844 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:32.840 It's not a church, it's a right or a liturgical allowance, 845 00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.519 so it's not like a jurisdiction, and it's either under 846 00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:41.960 roc Or or it's under the Antiochians. And I'm not 847 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.360 a huge fan of it, not because of the liturgy itself, 848 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:47.400 just that so many of the times people want to 849 00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:50.599 bring in Latin errors and Latin theological mistakes and they 850 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:53.280 don't get a good catechisas and it always ends up 851 00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:56.639 being a problem. And usually when people quote leave Orthodoxy 852 00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:59.440 for Rome. There are people who get into the Western right, 853 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.880 so huge fan of it. But that doesn't mean there 854 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:06.480 aren't good Western right pritorts and people there are. But 855 00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:13.000 like father in Saint Louis, the Western right up there 856 00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:15.880 was good because Father Hirschmier I think is his name, 857 00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:21.800 he's really good about Catechists. So there are some exceptions, 858 00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:27.719 but it just seems to constantly be an issue low quality. 859 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:35.079 What's up? What is the problem with predestination? Big dirp 860 00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:38.360 ten dollars? In the Orthodox view, it's not a problem. 861 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:41.039 We would see it as something that we would interpret 862 00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:45.679 through Christology. Go watch my multiple talks on Calvinism. 863 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:50.880 Hey, I want to say something real quick. Sure, Uh 864 00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:52.639 notice it's. 865 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:56.480 Not predetermination, it's predestined difference. 866 00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:01.480 I mean I didn't know those things. I just thought 867 00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:02.199 they meant the same thing. 868 00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:07.280 Well, I mean, to have a. 869 00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:14.800 God know your destiny doesn't equate to that you're determined 870 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:18.239 in the sense of overriding your free will. 871 00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:20.880 And so I find it interesting that. 872 00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:25.440 The word used, the phrase used is predestined, not predetermined, 873 00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:34.400 because I think determination carries with I don't think it 874 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:34.920 has to. 875 00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.280 Oh, I say, we're saying, well, I think a Calvinists 876 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:38.039 will just say that. 877 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.880 Of the ability to do otherwise or something like that. 878 00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.199 Well, Calvinists is going to say that the word predestination 879 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:51.000 means predeterminism. So I don't know the etymological history, so 880 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:54.159 I don't know how that would be sust out. Mar 881 00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:57.280 Dario three dollars redeem Zoomor had a tantrum in the discord. 882 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:02.239 He called me autistic when I left it, and can orthodoxy. Well, 883 00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:07.599 I'm about to re upload to X the redeem Zoomer debate, 884 00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:20.519 so look forward to that later on this evening. What's up, Low, Hey? 885 00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:23.800 Uh, just a quick question for you. I think this 886 00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:25.960 is something that you and I would disagree on. I 887 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:32.679 don't necessarily see kind of the more pop science origin 888 00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:38.039 of the world as being conflicting with the creations were 889 00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.719 within the Bible, if you understand the Bible to be 890 00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:46.880 using more symbolic language and not necessarily like a literal 891 00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:50.360 six rotations around the sun. I know that this is 892 00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:52.199 something that people will hit you up on to try 893 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:55.320 and you know, make you say something that you know 894 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:59.360 pop science people will have soy face reactions to But 895 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:01.960 it's the year love. I'm not trying to trip you 896 00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:06.039 up or anything, But where's the line in the creation 897 00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.239 story in Genesis? Is it something to be taken so literally? 898 00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:11.480 I mean, it's not really going to make or break 899 00:53:11.480 --> 00:53:15.119 my faith or anything. But what's why is so much 900 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:20.519 weight put into the years or the calendar timeline? Like 901 00:53:20.519 --> 00:53:22.639 what's what are the stakes to the conversation? 902 00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:23.320 Like? 903 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:24.360 Am I missing something? 904 00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:29.840 So the seven day, the day, the week cycle that 905 00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:31.559 we have, where do you think that comes from? 906 00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:37.559 I mean, ultimately it was made up by by somebody. 907 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.360 I know, there's been several calendar reforms. It's it's kind 908 00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:44.800 of a just a human interpretation of movements based on 909 00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:48.800 you know, crops, based on tradition, based on long. 910 00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:50.599 Way saying, do you think the seven day week is 911 00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:51.519 based on crops? 912 00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.239 I mean calendars were used by different cultures to notate 913 00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:57.800 different things. 914 00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.599 Well in the ancient world. In the ancient world, when 915 00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:04.000 the Hebrews talked about a seven day calendar, what what's 916 00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:04.599 it based on? 917 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:06.880 I don't know. 918 00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:14.280 What's the Sabbath, the seventh day of rest? 919 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:16.920 Where where does that? Where does that. 920 00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:18.719 Come from Yeah, the scriptures. 921 00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:21.320 Okay, So that's what I'm saying, is like, if the 922 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:26.760 seven day week that we have is a seven days, 923 00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:29.760 why wouldn't we think that what's mentioned in Genesis is 924 00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:31.239 intended to be seven days? 925 00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:34.079 Uh? 926 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:37.960 Because it doesn't seem to be lining up with what 927 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:38.840 is being. 928 00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:42.639 Found out? I mean, I. 929 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.239 Guess by who? What do you mean found out? Like 930 00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:47.360 I just so, there's a paper out today that the 931 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:49.920 universe isn't real? Is that was that? The soayance man 932 00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:55.239 that you're following. You're laughing, but that's literally what Forbes said. 933 00:54:55.880 --> 00:54:58.639 No, it's and I get your point. You know, people. 934 00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:01.480 Worship science, but it's a pro Thats not a not 935 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:02.480 a knowledge claim. 936 00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:06.679 Oh really, okay, how do you know? It's a process, it's. 937 00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:09.119 A hypothesis, it's Is. 938 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:10.679 That not a knowledge claim? Wait a minute? Is that 939 00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:11.760 not a knowledge claim? 940 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:13.599 No, it's suggesting. 941 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:18.079 Whoa wait a minute, So you made a big mistake. 942 00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:19.039 You don't see that. 943 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:22.639 I mean, I'm I'm not. 944 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:23.000 I don't. 945 00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:32.679 Science is a process. That's not a knowledge claim. 946 00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:35.119 I mean, I'm taking. 947 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:39.039 The air out of the validity of using science quote 948 00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:44.960 unquote as a foundation for much of anything. Which I 949 00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:47.039 suppose is kind of, you know, contradicting. 950 00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:52.519 I don't know, man, well, I mean again, I think 951 00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:56.079 it's a question of where we put priorities and what 952 00:55:56.119 --> 00:55:58.960 we think is certain and what we think is less certain. 953 00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.000 So for me, and this is probably where I'm out 954 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.159 of a stet with most people in the modern world, 955 00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:08.360 I don't put the syance world very high on my 956 00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:12.480 category of authorities because I've watched it for many years, 957 00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:15.960 and I've been in academia, and I see how driven 958 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:19.719 it is by fads, how many false papers there are, 959 00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:23.840 how much peer review research is bullshit. So I'm not 960 00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:25.760 saying at all is but a large large portion of 961 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:27.840 it is. So I don't put much stock in that. 962 00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:29.800 And I'm a skeptic when it comes to most of 963 00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:33.199 those things. So whenever I hear people positing these kinds 964 00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:35.519 of positions, I'm always open to hearing it. I went 965 00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:40.159 through college and grad school endlessly hearing all the Darwinian dogmas, 966 00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:44.199 and I was debating my professors publicly on this topic 967 00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:48.039 back in my freshman or some my sophomore year. I 968 00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:51.960 debated my philosophy science professor at Philosophy Club publicly on 969 00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:56.599 the question of the epistemic basis for the scientific method 970 00:56:56.639 --> 00:56:58.400 when I was a sophomore. So I'm not bragging, but 971 00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:01.800 I'm saying, like I've thought about this a lot, and 972 00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:05.440 I'm not saying there's not some smart suoyance man that 973 00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:07.679 could come in and give me a good basis for 974 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:10.719 a pistemology. But what I've already heard from what you're 975 00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:14.320 positing is a fundamental contradiction in the claims. So to me, 976 00:57:14.360 --> 00:57:16.000 I don't understand why I would even listen to the 977 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:17.960 rest of what you're saying. In terms of argumentation. I 978 00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:20.360 don't mean it against you personally, but in terms of 979 00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:24.599 the argumentation, you said that you're not making knowledge claims, 980 00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:29.119 and then you said, but before that you said science progresses. 981 00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:32.280 I forget how you worded it. That's a knowledge claim. 982 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:34.639 So it's like, have you do you know anything about 983 00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:35.559 epistemology at all? 984 00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:37.960 Yeah, the basics. 985 00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:39.880 I mean, I'm not going to pretend to be I 986 00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:41.000 did study philosophy. 987 00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:43.000 I was an economics guy, so it's. 988 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:45.159 A different school than what I was putting time and 989 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:49.239 energy into in Fairness Solved. I'll happily admit that I've 990 00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:49.800 got a lot. 991 00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:52.360 More to learn on it. However, I guess the question kind. 992 00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:57.280 Of boils down to whenever it comes to scripture and 993 00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:02.159 whenever it comes to divine revelation, what is the delineation 994 00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:07.159 for a literal interpretation for an exacting rather than something 995 00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:11.360 that can be interpreted more loosely, or perhaps you know, 996 00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:14.320 isn't revealed in such a black and white one. 997 00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:14.840 And zero way. 998 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:18.199 Well, first of all, I never said that it's a 999 00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:21.840 black and white fundamentalist interpretation of the Book of Genesis. 1000 00:58:21.880 --> 00:58:25.039 I didn't say anything about anything like that. I just 1001 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:29.920 simply pointed out problem in the pistemology. But the strictures 1002 00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:31.760 would be the mind of the church over time. So, 1003 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:35.000 for example, the six Secumentical Council points out that you 1004 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.039 can't say that there's death before the fall, and you're 1005 00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:41.679 positing a position that would require AONs millions of years 1006 00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:44.559 of death before we even get the existence of Adam, 1007 00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:46.719 and even in fact, aon's of death is what produces 1008 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.320 Adam and Eve. To me, that seems preposterous just on 1009 00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:52.880 the basis of Romans eight, because Romans eight makes it 1010 00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:56.360 clear that Adam's fall is what introduced all forms of death, 1011 00:58:56.519 --> 00:58:59.960 whether physical, spiritual, whatever. So I mean, you're free to 1012 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:03.280 disagree with Christianity, but if we're going to be honest 1013 00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:07.599 about Roman's eight and the six Secum Medical Council, then 1014 00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:09.880 it's not It doesn't make sense for a Christian to 1015 00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:13.079 hold to theistic evolution all this stuff. I mean, there's 1016 00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:15.199 many that do, and I understand we're all kind of 1017 00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:18.079 brought up in this idea and it's the air that 1018 00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:22.159 we breathe. But I approach it as a skeptic and 1019 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:26.159 from a philosophical perspective, I don't understand what the argument 1020 00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:28.599 is that's supposed to convince me of this, and I've 1021 00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:32.599 been hearing it since I was eighteen in college. Feel 1022 00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:37.360 free to present some new argument that addresses my philosophical 1023 00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:40.559 concerns with the system. Because most people who argue in 1024 00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:43.440 this way, I'm not talking about you specifically, but they 1025 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:47.559 take the approach that you do. They take empirical scientific 1026 00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.159 data as a kind of a given and the most 1027 00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:53.320 certain type of knowledge. Now maybe you don't, but most 1028 00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:56.400 people operate that way, and they never do good in 1029 00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:59.639 debates because they've never thought about the philosophy of these things. 1030 00:59:59.679 --> 01:00:03.360 They don't think about what does the scientific method assume 1031 01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:06.159 for it? To be possible. And that's what philosophy does 1032 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:09.719 that it gets us to ask these more fundamental questions 1033 01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:12.920 about our assumptions. And so when I start doing that, 1034 01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:15.320 that's usually where people duck out because people in the 1035 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:19.199 sayance realm, people in the domain of scientism, they're just 1036 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:21.480 not taught any of this. They don't know anything about 1037 01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:24.480 these things unless they happen to take a philosophy of 1038 01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:26.320 science class, which is very few of them. 1039 01:00:26.840 --> 01:00:29.159 Yeah, no, I think you're right. 1040 01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:30.920 I think a lot of people are trying to appeal 1041 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:34.719 to the system that at a really fundamental level directly 1042 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:39.119 contradicts the system that's being taught at the university, at 1043 01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:41.440 the you know, academic you know. 1044 01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:46.840 But I would argue that those people contradict themselves too, 1045 01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:52.360 So I don't understand. I mean, the academic establishment now 1046 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:54.320 says that men are women and can be women. 1047 01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.679 Well that's and that's why, you know, I started off 1048 01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:02.719 by saying that science, quote unquote is better understood as 1049 01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:04.599 a process. I think a lot of people fall into 1050 01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:07.719 the trap of, you know, anytime a white paper is published, 1051 01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:10.920 they say, oh, my god, like capital t truth in 1052 01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:12.320 my hands, black and white. 1053 01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:12.880 Here it is. 1054 01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:15.719 But that's clearly not the case, because give it six 1055 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:18.679 months and some other white paper will totally. 1056 01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:20.840 You know, fundamentally change the world. 1057 01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:21.119 Men. 1058 01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:23.440 But I don't want to take your whole night. I 1059 01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:25.840 really appreciate your time, man a lot to think. 1060 01:01:26.039 --> 01:01:27.719 Well, I even I even I could even agree to 1061 01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:33.079 you that. Yeah, in a mundane sense. Sciences, you know, theorization, 1062 01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:36.599 it's theory. It's a progressing in a in a very 1063 01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:42.599 strict niche way. And that's precisely why science and scientific 1064 01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:46.519 discoveries by the very nature cannot tell you grand narratives. 1065 01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:49.800 So how is it like, if I'm studying this rock 1066 01:01:51.199 --> 01:01:54.599 without the assumptions of AONs of time, it's not going 1067 01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:58.880 to get me to the gigantic metaphysical leap of AONs 1068 01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:00.000 of time to produce the raw. 1069 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:04.719 Yeah, And I think that's why a lot of people are, 1070 01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:06.559 you know, they can't get down. 1071 01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:09.840 To that root level of cause you know. 1072 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.599 They're still unanswered questions, and you know they'll have a 1073 01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:15.000 panic attack when you're like, Okay, how did this thing 1074 01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:16.679 that cannot have a beginning? 1075 01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:18.639 You know, how did it come to be? 1076 01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:21.840 And if science can't prove it, there's no answer, and 1077 01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:24.400 that just you know, you'll you'll see them squirm, you'll 1078 01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:26.159 hear them just get really uncomfortable. 1079 01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:28.280 But well, why should I mean if I begin with 1080 01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:32.480 the position of the scientific method, how do I know 1081 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.039 the scientific can the scientific method tell me the scientific 1082 01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:35.679 method is true? 1083 01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:39.519 It's not. No, it's true. 1084 01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:41.039 It's not self justifying. 1085 01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:44.599 What you can do say, well, it's it is, you know, 1086 01:02:44.719 --> 01:02:45.920 it just it just. 1087 01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:46.960 Works, you know. 1088 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:56.639 There's yeah, you telling me, but there's I think that 1089 01:02:56.679 --> 01:03:00.719 it's you know, it's good for recording observations, and it's 1090 01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:01.239 it's good. 1091 01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:02.320 It has a purpose. 1092 01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:05.119 I'm not going to say, you know, throw out observation 1093 01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:08.440 and questioning totally out the window as its place. But 1094 01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:13.599 it can't find it can't. 1095 01:03:13.639 --> 01:03:14.239 It's got linen. 1096 01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:15.400 Sure. 1097 01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:17.719 Yeah, it's a tool for understanding the natural world. 1098 01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:18.400 Uh. 1099 01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:22.159 And it does really well for you know, engineering and 1100 01:03:22.159 --> 01:03:26.360 inventing things and figuring out patterns, you know, for you know, 1101 01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:29.519 but it's not going to tell you what the monkey 1102 01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:32.239 was telling the snake eleven million years ago in the tree. 1103 01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:47.559 Connor, Yes, sir, Hey, how's it going. 1104 01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:51.239 I was reading some story the other day and he. 1105 01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:54.679 Made a statement of God is a tool we've created. 1106 01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:58.480 But out room and in that I kind of saw two. 1107 01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:01.119 Preconceptions maybe like we were touching on it earlier, of 1108 01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:04.559 like God, you know, not being created, and of course 1109 01:04:04.599 --> 01:04:06.480 kind of being good. And I feel like if you 1110 01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:09.000 make both of those mistakes, you're usually falling in the 1111 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:11.039 atheist camp, and if you make one or the other, 1112 01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:13.920 you're falling in a maybe Jordan Peterson style like Bostic 1113 01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:16.559 camp or a Gnostic you know, God exists. 1114 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:19.920 But nondod Just wondering how you approach that. 1115 01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:23.880 If you approach the God's you know, God being not created, 1116 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:26.000 that God is the creator, or if you'd approach that 1117 01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:26.719 God is good. 1118 01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:31.320 Yeah, I think you can approach it either way and 1119 01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:36.599 just ask for the justification for the possibility of speaking 1120 01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:40.280 and in those ways at all? What is a meaningful 1121 01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:43.639 phrase when you call something the good? At all? What 1122 01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:46.119 is the good? And the great thing about bringing up 1123 01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:47.960 something like the good is that it immediately gets you 1124 01:04:48.039 --> 01:04:50.679 in the domain of both ethics and metaphysics at once, 1125 01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:54.119 because it's pretty clearly something that's both. It relates to 1126 01:04:54.119 --> 01:05:00.480 both areas the good as a moral ethical element, where 1127 01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:04.519 we contrast it with the lesser or the bad. There's 1128 01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:06.400 an assumption that we should prefer or we ought to 1129 01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:09.480 prefer the good versus but not good. And it also 1130 01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:12.719 relates to metaphysics, do you know in some sense talk 1131 01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.440 about being? What is the good? Where is the good? 1132 01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:17.480 How do we know the good? This kind of stuff 1133 01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:20.199 that so it also touches on epistemology. So the good 1134 01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:21.960 is a great thing to bring up with any of 1135 01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:27.559 these people who oftentimes make value judgments and talk as if, well, 1136 01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:29.800 we all have you know, the idea about the good. 1137 01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:33.039 But there's no metaphysics, there's no God, there's no ethics, 1138 01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:35.719 there's no you know, it's just a really quickly I 1139 01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:38.440 would say, a collapsing position if you really drill into it. 1140 01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:53.880 Connor Rachel Wilson fifty dollars. You're cracking me up today. 1141 01:05:54.400 --> 01:05:57.679 Thank you, Rachel. Appreciate that big fat super chat. I 1142 01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.840 think she left the chat, but appreciate you being so 1143 01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:05.320 generous tonight, meet Mento's morey three dollars trick question Yakoub 1144 01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:08.719 is a rabbi? Oh just blew my mind. Well, Emmanuel 1145 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:18.039 five dollars unblock. Does he want a debate? Jason? I 1146 01:06:18.079 --> 01:06:19.840 don't know who that is, but you know what, I 1147 01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:23.800 appreciate your five dollars superchat. But tonight's track record of 1148 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.559 me unblocking the people that I had blocked is not 1149 01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:29.639 a very good track record. I'm gonna stick with my 1150 01:06:29.840 --> 01:06:33.880 intuitive sense that I was right to block whoever you're 1151 01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:37.239 talking about. Honeybee double on hundre one hundred dollars, Thank 1152 01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:40.360 you so much. Always a big fat champion super chatter 1153 01:06:40.440 --> 01:06:44.719 with those big fat superchats to Connor, what's up, hey? 1154 01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:44.920 Ja? 1155 01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:48.320 Come from a Protestant background to a lot of evidentialism 1156 01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:51.280 and running into issues with people. 1157 01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:54.000 I talked to, and I really get the pushback of 1158 01:06:54.039 --> 01:06:55.760 the brute fact objection. 1159 01:06:56.280 --> 01:06:58.599 How do you counter that with the transmental lookument. 1160 01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:05.159 Well, roote fact doesn't, in my mind, constitute an objection, 1161 01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:09.039 It constitutes an assertion. So just simply saying that there 1162 01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:12.599 are brute facts number one doesn't solve the criteria problem, 1163 01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:15.480 and it kind of begs the question because like, well, 1164 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:17.960 how do we know that's a brute fact versus all 1165 01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.199 the things that are supposedly not brute facts. So that's 1166 01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:24.840 another element of a standard or criterion. It would need 1167 01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:27.280 to suss out the brute facts from the non brute facts. 1168 01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:31.639 So either criteria problem or sussing out the brute facts 1169 01:07:31.639 --> 01:07:33.519 from the non brute facts. What I would think would 1170 01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:36.239 be enough to refute the silly idea that there's quote 1171 01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:37.079 brute facts. 1172 01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:40.320 Oh yes, I'm basically ask you, how do you determine 1173 01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:43.000 what is a brute factor? What do you require more 1174 01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:43.760 justification for? 1175 01:07:45.320 --> 01:07:47.840 So, again, the criterion problem would be that in order 1176 01:07:47.880 --> 01:07:50.000 for me to have a knowledge claim, I need a 1177 01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:53.239 theory of knowledge. And if I have a theory of knowledge, 1178 01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.159 that also is a knowledge claim. So it's kind of 1179 01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.239 a box that people that have this sort of found 1180 01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:01.800 date classical found national self evidence ye view, can never 1181 01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:04.559 get out of. It's a trap that they can't solve. 1182 01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:06.760 And usually when they try to solve it, they just 1183 01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:11.280 ignore the problem and restate something about something just being 1184 01:08:11.320 --> 01:08:14.000 the case. Why are we supposed to just assume that 1185 01:08:14.039 --> 01:08:17.079 your assertion or your dogmatic pronouncement of these things being 1186 01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:19.239 the case is the case? How do we know that? 1187 01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:21.479 Why ought we believe that? So I don't think they 1188 01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:24.520 can ever really give a clear answer as to the 1189 01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:30.039 epistemic grounds for believing in that as a brute fact. 1190 01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:33.640 And then another element of that problem is to say, well, 1191 01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:37.079 to call this thing a brute fact assumes that there's 1192 01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:41.039 some class of things that are brute facts versus the 1193 01:08:41.039 --> 01:08:44.399 things that are not brute facts. And on what basis? 1194 01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:46.520 And how do you know what the brute facts are? 1195 01:08:46.840 --> 01:08:49.640 It's very ad hoc, you see, and you need another 1196 01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:52.520 standard to say, oh, here's the ten things that are 1197 01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:55.119 the brute fact. Okay, what's the basis? What's the standard 1198 01:08:55.159 --> 01:08:58.760 the presupposition that tells you the ten brute facts versus 1199 01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:00.239 all the non brute facts. 1200 01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:02.840 And then it's John's. 1201 01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:08.039 And if you appeal to if you have a criterion 1202 01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:10.159 that has to explain the brute fat, then they're not 1203 01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:11.319 brute facts exactly. 1204 01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:14.560 Is one of the problems. 1205 01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:15.880 I guess that people I speak to are a little 1206 01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:17.000 bit less sophisticated, and. 1207 01:09:17.479 --> 01:09:18.960 Argument really comes down to from them. 1208 01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:21.159 It's not really even an argument, but what they say 1209 01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:23.840 is essentially things are generally as they appear to be 1210 01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:24.920 until otherwise. 1211 01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:29.760 That's again, that's that's exactly. 1212 01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:33.199 So that's what we're asking is they have a criterion, 1213 01:09:33.319 --> 01:09:37.880 But what's their justification for their justification criterion? Well, it's 1214 01:09:37.920 --> 01:09:41.359 just because I made it up. Yeah, it just is 1215 01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:42.079 I made it up. 1216 01:09:44.119 --> 01:09:46.039 Okay, I'll have to think about that, thank you. 1217 01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:48.680 I just think about saying the opposite. Well, actually it's 1218 01:09:48.680 --> 01:09:52.840 the opposite. Well how do you know that, Well, the 1219 01:09:52.880 --> 01:09:55.119 same way that you do. If you're allowed to make 1220 01:09:55.239 --> 01:09:59.039 up is a criterion, then I can take the opposite 1221 01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:00.840 of your position to say the same thing. 1222 01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:05.199 Thank you, guys, appreciated. 1223 01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:09.960 Absolutely. You notice a lot of what goes on in 1224 01:10:09.960 --> 01:10:12.920 philosophy is a lot of just so, well it's just. 1225 01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:20.600 So exactly in word games semantic. What if I made 1226 01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:22.680 up another word exactly? 1227 01:10:23.439 --> 01:10:27.840 And like I was reading like some guy's critique of me, 1228 01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:32.239 and he was he said, well, it's not circular to 1229 01:10:32.680 --> 01:10:39.600 appeal to your cognitive faculties, you know, if you're wondering 1230 01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:41.760 if your cognitive faculties work, because we have a name 1231 01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:45.720 for them philosophy. It's called faculty circularity. And I see 1232 01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:46.359 that's allowed. 1233 01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:51.039 Like, oh, okay, thanks, thanks really, I didn't know that 1234 01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:53.479 you thanks for making. 1235 01:10:53.319 --> 01:10:57.760 Up a word problem, James. 1236 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:00.800 Yeah, a ja, thanks for having me on. 1237 01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:05.359 So I am a Catholic labs Catholic, and I've been 1238 01:11:05.399 --> 01:11:07.239 looking into Orthodoxy, so that's kind of. 1239 01:11:07.239 --> 01:11:10.199 Hang on that I'm coming from. 1240 01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.439 I try I hold you to kind of highest standard 1241 01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:16.640 as far as consistency goes and so I was curious 1242 01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:21.840 about watching you kind of completely smash this Muslim cleric 1243 01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:22.439 and debate. 1244 01:11:23.079 --> 01:11:24.880 At one point you asked him, it's an hour in. 1245 01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:26.159 To be fair, I don't know if you'll be able 1246 01:11:26.199 --> 01:11:29.760 to recall this specifically, but to make the argument that 1247 01:11:29.840 --> 01:11:35.039 his line of reasoning relies on asserting that God has changed. 1248 01:11:35.039 --> 01:11:37.319 At some point, you ask him, does creation come about 1249 01:11:37.359 --> 01:11:38.560 because God willed it at. 1250 01:11:38.439 --> 01:11:39.079 A certain point? 1251 01:11:39.840 --> 01:11:43.079 Yeah, you're talking about Shabiro, I mean Azra Rashid. Yeah, 1252 01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:43.720 I remember those. 1253 01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:46.520 Yeah, And I don't feel like he made a good 1254 01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:49.279 showing in general. But like, just if I were arguing 1255 01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:52.520 with you for arguing sake, I might say something like, well, 1256 01:11:52.600 --> 01:11:57.039 creation includes time. Time is a prerequisite to change. Therefore, God, 1257 01:11:57.079 --> 01:11:59.680 being uncreated, acts eternally and is unchanged. 1258 01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:01.319 I just wondering how you would refute that. 1259 01:12:02.680 --> 01:12:09.399 Well, the act in question was that he was supposedly perfect. Well, 1260 01:12:09.880 --> 01:12:11.640 let's go back to what I was trying to argue 1261 01:12:11.680 --> 01:12:14.479 in that debate. So Islam relies a lot on this 1262 01:12:14.560 --> 01:12:18.640 idea of Allah's perfections, and so Allah possesses all supreme 1263 01:12:18.720 --> 01:12:24.479 perfections in himself as he is. And my argument was that, well, 1264 01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:29.199 if he's perfectly eternally perfect, and then he wills to 1265 01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:32.760 do something different that he wasn't willing, such as creating. 1266 01:12:33.479 --> 01:12:35.279 And it doesn't matter if you say, okay, yeah, he 1267 01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:39.960 creates time. That's a difference, right, because there was a 1268 01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:43.199 Allah without creation and others Allah with creation. So now 1269 01:12:43.239 --> 01:12:48.960 Allah has actualized attributes that he didn't previously actualize, such 1270 01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:56.680 as being providential or exercising interaction with the world or whatever, 1271 01:12:56.840 --> 01:13:00.920 or revealing the Quran to Gabriel. Right. And you'll notice 1272 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:03.760 in Islam they oftentimes go back and forth on this 1273 01:13:03.760 --> 01:13:06.159 problem when you bring it up, because you can see 1274 01:13:06.159 --> 01:13:08.399 this and the reflected in the debate over whether the 1275 01:13:08.479 --> 01:13:12.159 Quran is the eternal speech and thus an eternal Quran 1276 01:13:12.319 --> 01:13:15.159 that then the created one is a copy of, or 1277 01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:18.840 whether there's just a eternal Allah and then a created Quran. 1278 01:13:18.960 --> 01:13:22.800 Most Muslims hold that the Quran is also, alongside Allah, 1279 01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:27.319 an eternal thing. But now we're getting into multiple eternals, 1280 01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:31.520 multiple which would be polytheism, right. So I was doing 1281 01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:33.720 a different route of argumentation with him, where I was 1282 01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:39.159 saying that if Allah is perfect from all eternity and 1283 01:13:39.439 --> 01:13:42.640 holds all the perfections, and he's also creator, but then 1284 01:13:42.720 --> 01:13:45.600 he creates at a point where he wasn't previously creator, 1285 01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:49.119 Then that's some kind of change because Allah would no 1286 01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:53.439 longer be all would have exercise attributes that he had 1287 01:13:53.439 --> 01:13:54.920 not exercised previously to that. 1288 01:13:56.840 --> 01:13:57.760 Okay, So the. 1289 01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:02.279 Sticking point for them, for the Muslim position is that 1290 01:14:04.279 --> 01:14:07.199 is this kind of line in the sand in terms 1291 01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:10.199 of God being perfect and having always been perfect, in 1292 01:14:10.399 --> 01:14:13.680 change being an implication of some point at which he 1293 01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:14.520 was imperfect. 1294 01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:19.880 If there's change, it would imply imperfection. Yes, So but 1295 01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:24.079 my argument was, well, did he go from being a creator? 1296 01:14:25.319 --> 01:14:28.039 Did he go from not from not creating to creating? 1297 01:14:28.079 --> 01:14:31.119 And how would that not be some change? Yeah? 1298 01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:35.720 Yeah, just curious what I'm still trying to grasp all 1299 01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:38.720 the presupp musicians that underpin all this in the first place. 1300 01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:43.439 But what why is that not a conflict for us? 1301 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:45.920 And I've got another question about what's not a conflict 1302 01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:47.199 for us that is a conflict for them. 1303 01:14:47.520 --> 01:14:49.600 Well, we believe in the essen center distinction. They don't 1304 01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:52.840 believe in the essence sentator distinction. So we have multiple 1305 01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:56.439 distinctions in God that they do not agree to. Okay, 1306 01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:01.000 So no, we have a much more elaborate sort ofitarian metaphysic. 1307 01:15:01.560 --> 01:15:05.000 Islam is not very elaborate in their metaphysics except. 1308 01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:06.960 For its beautiful simplicity. 1309 01:15:06.520 --> 01:15:08.800 Right right, well supposedly, but then when you get into 1310 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:12.600 the attributes, they do get pretty crazy with trying to 1311 01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:14.199 figure out and debate the attributes. 1312 01:15:14.439 --> 01:15:16.840 But yeah, that's that's that was pretty funny. The foot 1313 01:15:16.840 --> 01:15:17.479 that's not a foot. 1314 01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:20.720 Well, what I'm saying though about yeah, specifically the act 1315 01:15:20.760 --> 01:15:25.159 of creation is that I was getting them to undertrying 1316 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:27.680 to get them understand like, well, if Allah's action of 1317 01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:31.479 creating is eternal, then the effect would also be eternal. 1318 01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:34.880 You see, So there would be an eternal world, and 1319 01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:38.600 some of the Muslims, like I would assume Khalil holds 1320 01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:40.680 his position like he's in neoplatonists, and so he probably 1321 01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:42.520 wouldn't have a problem with that. Yeah, there's external worlds. 1322 01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:47.880 Allah has always generated worlds over which he's lore or something. 1323 01:15:48.560 --> 01:15:50.600 He's the lord of the world. So but that would 1324 01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:53.239 mean that, oh so there's these all these other eternal 1325 01:15:53.279 --> 01:15:56.000 things alongside a law that are not a lot. So 1326 01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:57.520 you're apologeist. 1327 01:15:58.000 --> 01:15:59.680 Okay, gotcha, gotcha. 1328 01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:04.560 At another point that debate, you said that you replied 1329 01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:06.439 something to him, like my model. He did it to 1330 01:16:07.159 --> 01:16:11.640 coke fallacy. He said, my model allows for circularity. That 1331 01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:13.199 came as kind of a surprise to me. I was 1332 01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:15.840 just wondering, is there a point is there in any 1333 01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:18.239 juncture where our model relies on circularity. 1334 01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:23.039 Well, I believe that all authority claims or worldview claims, 1335 01:16:23.039 --> 01:16:25.079 at a certain level, they bought them out and they 1336 01:16:25.119 --> 01:16:30.159 rely on some form of recursion or self referencing. So 1337 01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:33.000 what I meant by circularity was not the fallacy of 1338 01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:36.720 circular reasoning, but that every position at some point becomes 1339 01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:40.800 self referencing. That's all I meant. And that's a part 1340 01:16:40.840 --> 01:16:45.119 of the point of presubpositional transcendal augmentation, is that if 1341 01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:50.359 there's not something that's self evident or just is, or 1342 01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:54.359 that everything is theory lighted, and if everything is stery lighted, 1343 01:16:54.359 --> 01:16:57.159 and then at a certain point you're going to reach 1344 01:16:57.279 --> 01:16:59.960 the ultimate authority in your worldview. For us, it would 1345 01:17:00.119 --> 01:17:02.479 be God, to which there could be no other thing 1346 01:17:02.560 --> 01:17:04.760 to appeal to. So, in other words, at that point 1347 01:17:04.880 --> 01:17:08.359 in our worldview, it's not the fallacy of authority if 1348 01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:11.279 God exists, because he's the ultimate funnel authority. 1349 01:17:12.119 --> 01:17:14.279 Gotcha? Okay? Jae, that's all I had. Thank you so much. 1350 01:17:14.359 --> 01:17:17.239 Yeah, great questions. I'm glad that somebody was going back 1351 01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:22.199 through that. The one of the other problems with that 1352 01:17:22.279 --> 01:17:24.439 debate with Osbar Rashid is that a lot of the 1353 01:17:24.520 --> 01:17:29.920 Muslims a lot of the metaphysical, theological, philosophical terms that 1354 01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:34.039 we use, and they don't translate into their system and so, 1355 01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:39.479 for example, they don't really have, as far as I'm aware, 1356 01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:43.479 like an actus purest conception of God or Allah's essence. 1357 01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:46.600 They would say He's perfect and so all that possesses 1358 01:17:46.640 --> 01:17:51.720 all the perfections. But I was trying to relay that 1359 01:17:51.960 --> 01:17:55.159 idea of the fact that if He's willing something now 1360 01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:58.880 that he didn't previously will, if Allah is his will 1361 01:17:58.960 --> 01:18:01.960 and so forth, then that would be a change in him. 1362 01:18:02.840 --> 01:18:06.039 And it was difficult to convey that because I only 1363 01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:09.680 had the toolkit of working with all his perfections but 1364 01:18:09.880 --> 01:18:12.039 not the notion of act as puris, And so I 1365 01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:15.359 was trying to translate a modal collapse argument into Islam. 1366 01:18:16.159 --> 01:18:17.680 And it kind of worked because he was kind of 1367 01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:20.640 saying at one point that well, he's eternally the creator, 1368 01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:23.279 but he creates in time. And my point was yeah, 1369 01:18:23.279 --> 01:18:25.560 I get that. I know you believe that. But if 1370 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:29.000 the action of creating is an eternal action, then it 1371 01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:31.960 seems to follow that the effect of that action would 1372 01:18:31.960 --> 01:18:37.239 also be eternal, namely a world. So if there's a 1373 01:18:37.319 --> 01:18:41.720 doing of something new, then that would suggest a change 1374 01:18:41.720 --> 01:18:44.560 in a law according to their perfections model. That's what 1375 01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:44.840 I was. 1376 01:18:44.760 --> 01:18:48.439 Trying to which would make that world uncreated, which would 1377 01:18:48.439 --> 01:18:49.359 make that world. 1378 01:18:49.119 --> 01:18:51.960 God, yeah, we be polytheism. It would refute their position. 1379 01:18:52.039 --> 01:18:53.399 Yeah, gotcha, thank you. 1380 01:18:55.479 --> 01:18:58.840 But I don't know that I conveyed that argument to him, 1381 01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:01.800 because he doesn't. He didn't seem to have many of 1382 01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:19.159 those same philosophical kind of ideas. Ethics. You gotta unmute ethics. 1383 01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:24.119 I want to thank you guys for being so degenerate, generous, 1384 01:19:24.159 --> 01:19:28.279 not degenerous. So many degenerous men. Tonight and ladies, Allula 1385 01:19:28.319 --> 01:19:32.359 five dollars day, happy, happy lou Yer say this in 1386 01:19:32.359 --> 01:19:34.600 a Boston accent. I look forward to telling you, the 1387 01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:37.279 pumpous liberals that not one of the heroes can beat 1388 01:19:37.279 --> 01:19:40.359 you in a debate. You're my favorite philosophy gladiator. No homo, 1389 01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:41.920 that was a dude. I thought I was a girl. 1390 01:19:42.319 --> 01:19:46.680 My bad Alula I just got homo with you. Michael 1391 01:19:46.840 --> 01:19:49.760 generon five dollars greens from the gener Repelic Do you 1392 01:19:49.840 --> 01:19:55.399 consider promoting Holy Trinity Monastery? Everything I've seen coming out 1393 01:19:55.399 --> 01:20:02.399 of Jordanville is good, looks like going there for Somemary 1394 01:20:02.479 --> 01:20:06.760 eventually teaching there, Like, oh, you're asking me, No, I 1395 01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:10.079 don't think I would be fit to be a any 1396 01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:12.880 kind of a professor or anything like that. I'm a 1397 01:20:12.880 --> 01:20:17.039 comedian man, jmil thirty dollars. You have thoughts about the 1398 01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:21.039 validity of famous Catholic priests when they talk about exorcisms 1399 01:20:21.039 --> 01:20:24.079 on all these podcasts, I mean, it's entirely possible. 1400 01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:24.399 I don't. 1401 01:20:24.479 --> 01:20:28.479 I can't say, But I also know that even if 1402 01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:33.560 the exorcisms are authentic and happening and helping people, that's 1403 01:20:33.640 --> 01:20:36.000 because of the name of Christ. It's in spite of papism, 1404 01:20:36.079 --> 01:20:38.680 not because of papism. Radical. 1405 01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:43.199 Yeah, professors and comedians are one of the same. 1406 01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:47.800 So well, I think of you as a very funny person, 1407 01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:52.319 So yes, you're you're a comedian to me, You're a 1408 01:20:52.319 --> 01:20:57.279 comedian in my heart. Real Cali Prepper three dollars. Can 1409 01:20:57.319 --> 01:21:00.479 the church air in a canon? Canon is of a 1410 01:21:00.560 --> 01:21:05.600 saint I mean, there might be some localized mistake, but 1411 01:21:05.640 --> 01:21:08.319 I think over time the mind of the church would 1412 01:21:08.640 --> 01:21:14.079 know and wouldn't ultimately universally err in that way or 1413 01:21:14.119 --> 01:21:18.640 the dox. These canonizations are typically local or not, Like 1414 01:21:19.239 --> 01:21:21.840 we don't have the ghostbusters in Rome that do all 1415 01:21:21.880 --> 01:21:24.960 this la gear. What's up man? 1416 01:21:38.880 --> 01:21:39.279 The gear? 1417 01:21:41.359 --> 01:21:41.880 Ethics? 1418 01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:45.159 Do you take it that God has propositional knowledge? Yes 1419 01:21:45.279 --> 01:21:45.439 or no? 1420 01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:49.319 Not in a creature really sense? 1421 01:21:50.520 --> 01:21:52.199 Sorry, should just be clear. Do you take it that 1422 01:21:52.239 --> 01:21:54.720 in order for God to know, XS be acquainted with 1423 01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:56.199 the proositional content. 1424 01:21:55.880 --> 01:21:58.760 That as God's I don't think we should think, as 1425 01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:02.359 doctor Branson says, that God's knowledge is anything like our knowledge. 1426 01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:04.199 So it's not going to be the case that God 1427 01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:05.359 has proposition knowledge. Breck. 1428 01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:08.640 We just may not understand how he has knowledge. What's 1429 01:22:08.640 --> 01:22:11.960 your point, what's your argument? I'm not gonna know. I'm 1430 01:22:11.960 --> 01:22:15.479 not gonna agree, So you're not going to get an argument. 1431 01:22:15.520 --> 01:22:22.039 You just want to get on here to get First 1432 01:22:22.079 --> 01:22:24.960 of all, I don't accept the premise that it's a 1433 01:22:25.039 --> 01:22:28.159 yes or no because that involves a lot of metaphysical 1434 01:22:28.319 --> 01:22:32.319 theological issues. So you're poisoning the well from the outset 1435 01:22:32.359 --> 01:22:35.560 to force me into trying to argue as if it's 1436 01:22:35.840 --> 01:22:38.159 a yes or no, either or question, and I might 1437 01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:40.960 reject that from the outset, And the fact that you 1438 01:22:41.039 --> 01:22:42.479 just yap and you're not going to make an actual 1439 01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:44.399 argument is a waste server that's time. 1440 01:22:46.640 --> 01:22:50.760 What isn't that already giving you like a false economy? 1441 01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:54.159 From his own point, most likely it's just a but. 1442 01:22:54.359 --> 01:22:58.079 You're just added Mesburg energy to and you can transform 1443 01:22:58.119 --> 01:23:00.399 to any fallacy into a legitimate argument. 1444 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:03.199 Yeah, but I didn't even understand what he said. He 1445 01:23:03.239 --> 01:23:06.399 said it like so spurring, and he didn't even make sense. 1446 01:23:07.520 --> 01:23:08.640 What's on that? What's on your mouth? 1447 01:23:10.560 --> 01:23:14.720 Look, first of all, thank you for bringing me on here, 1448 01:23:14.760 --> 01:23:16.920 But I wanted to just like ask a little bit 1449 01:23:16.960 --> 01:23:19.520 of questions about several quotes that I have here. 1450 01:23:19.720 --> 01:23:22.000 It's from some type of transcript that. 1451 01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:25.479 I got from debate that you know, you know who 1452 01:23:25.640 --> 01:23:26.760 made by Jim bob Is. 1453 01:23:27.560 --> 01:23:28.680 Yeah. 1454 01:23:29.039 --> 01:23:33.319 Yeah, So there was this you know, how fucking stupid 1455 01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:38.000 TikTok gets right, and how idiotic the philosophers right there are. 1456 01:23:38.840 --> 01:23:42.600 So there was this guy who really had a horrible 1457 01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:44.760 type of position. Because I'm just going to tell you 1458 01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:46.760 right now, what's his main arguments? 1459 01:23:47.600 --> 01:23:49.479 So the guy didn't believe in absolute truth. 1460 01:23:49.560 --> 01:23:53.880 He was a subjectivist of logic, and he didn't actually 1461 01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:56.760 have any type of view of truth. He said that 1462 01:23:56.880 --> 01:23:59.960 he had a deflationist view of truth. What do you 1463 01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:00.600 think about that. 1464 01:24:02.119 --> 01:24:05.640 Deflationist? I have no idea what that means. 1465 01:24:05.680 --> 01:24:10.319 Some type of manner that it classifies logic as no, No, 1466 01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:14.880 it classifies truth as being contextually within linguistic manners or 1467 01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:20.359 something like that. I don't know, something like it's based 1468 01:24:20.399 --> 01:24:23.640 on the context of a linguistic discussion. 1469 01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:26.479 So let's say that as the. 1470 01:24:26.439 --> 01:24:28.720 Snow is white, and that makes it truth for a 1471 01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:30.720 main context or or something. 1472 01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:32.079 I guess it's very stupid. 1473 01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:34.720 Well, I would just ask, how do we know that 1474 01:24:34.760 --> 01:24:38.720 the break the first premise is true, that all truth 1475 01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:41.319 is reduced to some form of linguistic discussion. 1476 01:24:42.640 --> 01:24:47.359 Yeah, I mean the other thing is that. So just 1477 01:24:47.399 --> 01:24:50.039 to tell you the level of stupidity this guy, thus 1478 01:24:50.640 --> 01:24:53.800 made by Jimbub made an excellent question to this guy, 1479 01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:54.920 which is. 1480 01:24:57.239 --> 01:24:59.840 To the night the law of identity. 1481 01:25:00.039 --> 01:25:03.520 You need to use the law of identity to prove that. 1482 01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:08.760 And it's just like a very much a what's the 1483 01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:09.760 name of this fallacy? 1484 01:25:10.600 --> 01:25:17.680 It's a I don't exactly remember the name of the fallacy, 1485 01:25:17.800 --> 01:25:21.119 but it's show how inconsistent the position is. 1486 01:25:21.119 --> 01:25:24.399 Because to deny logic you need to use logic, right. 1487 01:25:25.079 --> 01:25:27.199 I mean, that's just called reetortion in Aristotle. 1488 01:25:28.520 --> 01:25:34.159 Yeah, so this this guy's literally made up presupposition and 1489 01:25:34.199 --> 01:25:37.920 then beg the question because he then responded that you 1490 01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:42.000 can you can deny the law of non contradiction because 1491 01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:42.399 you're a. 1492 01:25:42.720 --> 01:25:45.800 Because you could be a subjectivist about logic. You see 1493 01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:46.760 how stupid that is. 1494 01:25:47.960 --> 01:25:50.359 Yeah, I mean that's I mean, that sounds like the 1495 01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:54.680 standard TikTok sphere for sure. I don't. I mean, there's 1496 01:25:54.720 --> 01:25:58.359 no subjectivist to count for logic that would be coherent. 1497 01:26:01.319 --> 01:26:14.399 Noelan Hello, Yeah, Hey, what's going on, Jay? 1498 01:26:14.479 --> 01:26:15.119 What's on your mind? 1499 01:26:16.119 --> 01:26:16.319 So? 1500 01:26:16.359 --> 01:26:21.079 I have a Russian buddy of mine who was talking 1501 01:26:21.119 --> 01:26:26.800 to me about some Russian Orthodox priests having multiple wives. 1502 01:26:27.520 --> 01:26:31.680 I was curious on what your take is on what 1503 01:26:31.800 --> 01:26:33.640 the Orthodox of you is on poligion. 1504 01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:36.680 I've never heard of that. I mean, I know I'm 1505 01:26:36.840 --> 01:26:39.840 saying it's not possible, but no, I don't think that's 1506 01:26:40.600 --> 01:26:42.800 There's a lot of people who in the Orthodox Church 1507 01:26:43.399 --> 01:26:46.760 operate non canonically. Probably I would say a lot but 1508 01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:48.359 I'm saying the history of the church. I'm sure there 1509 01:26:48.399 --> 01:26:52.279 have been many priests bishops who have you know, not 1510 01:26:52.479 --> 01:26:55.279 lived according to their calling. So but I've never heard 1511 01:26:55.319 --> 01:27:11.760 of any Orthodox arguing for polygamy. Luke, thank you guys 1512 01:27:11.800 --> 01:27:14.079 for the super chest and I MKG ten dollars. Most 1513 01:27:14.079 --> 01:27:17.119 of the ex Muslims that our Iranians want some kind 1514 01:27:17.159 --> 01:27:20.279 of Jesus without the rules. Many of them convert because 1515 01:27:20.279 --> 01:27:23.079 they hate Islam. It's very common they think Christianity is 1516 01:27:23.119 --> 01:27:26.159 an American non denominational religion that they see in Hollywood movies. 1517 01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:30.119 I mean, unfortunately that's probably true. So that guy was 1518 01:27:32.079 --> 01:27:35.159 I I just I'm in the Year of Love. I'm 1519 01:27:35.159 --> 01:27:41.039 trying to learn to exit situations that are gonna be 1520 01:27:42.279 --> 01:27:48.520 not going anywhere. Luke, what's up, hey, j what's on 1521 01:27:48.560 --> 01:27:48.880 your mind? 1522 01:27:50.479 --> 01:27:54.680 Well, I'm gonna sure if you've spoken to like crazy 1523 01:27:54.720 --> 01:27:55.439 Baptists like me. 1524 01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:59.479 But I'm one of those of beliefs that the Baptists 1525 01:27:59.560 --> 01:28:02.520 like trace their origins back to the First Church. 1526 01:28:02.920 --> 01:28:05.960 And honestly, there's like so many topics who you probably 1527 01:28:05.960 --> 01:28:06.319 talk about. 1528 01:28:06.359 --> 01:28:07.640 I don't even really know where to start. 1529 01:28:07.840 --> 01:28:10.600 But why would you want to trace your origin through 1530 01:28:10.680 --> 01:28:13.279 people like the all Virginsians and people that are heretics 1531 01:28:13.279 --> 01:28:16.720 and were anti trinitarian. That's crazy. 1532 01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:19.239 Don't necessarily chase my origins through them. 1533 01:28:19.359 --> 01:28:21.880 So like, well, hold on, are you are you trailed blood? 1534 01:28:22.199 --> 01:28:22.359 Think? 1535 01:28:23.000 --> 01:28:24.720 Well, I think like even as you said. 1536 01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:26.000 Are you trail of blood? 1537 01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:31.119 Not like like in the perfection of that book, like 1538 01:28:31.439 --> 01:28:33.279 not like saying that that book is perfect and it 1539 01:28:33.359 --> 01:28:37.680 has all historical accounts accurately. But I mean it's you 1540 01:28:37.880 --> 01:28:40.760 you can like basically you know, look at books like that, 1541 01:28:40.880 --> 01:28:43.399 just like I'm sure like there's orthodox historical books that 1542 01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:44.159 have airs. 1543 01:28:43.880 --> 01:28:46.000 In them that you know need to be Okay, So 1544 01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:48.520 it's all of the people in church history and the 1545 01:28:48.560 --> 01:28:53.560 Trail of Blood that are not anti trinitarian that you follow. Like, so, 1546 01:28:53.640 --> 01:28:55.720 who are the Baptists in those centuries when the Trail 1547 01:28:55.720 --> 01:28:57.760 of Blood cites the anti Trinitarians? 1548 01:28:59.239 --> 01:29:02.359 Well, I think like just I mean, I mean the 1549 01:29:02.760 --> 01:29:05.199 argument I think that the Trailer Blood makes it it 1550 01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:07.800 does have a degree of accuracy, is that is that 1551 01:29:07.840 --> 01:29:11.319 those those that did believe the truths were slaughtered there. 1552 01:29:11.439 --> 01:29:13.880 Okay, so name the Baptists in those centuries. 1553 01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:17.319 Well, the way that I look at it is kind 1554 01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:21.279 of like a representative type group. So like one one. 1555 01:29:21.560 --> 01:29:24.880 I guess you could say powerful argument and I'd like 1556 01:29:24.920 --> 01:29:26.279 to hear what you thought, so are on it is 1557 01:29:26.319 --> 01:29:29.199 that like the Waldensis Uh. 1558 01:29:29.239 --> 01:29:32.840 Basically when they came out of the out of hiding. 1559 01:29:32.600 --> 01:29:36.680 So to speak, uh, in the Reformation period, they they 1560 01:29:36.960 --> 01:29:40.560 they declared like just straight up like we we we 1561 01:29:40.560 --> 01:29:43.319 were the original, we were founded by the apostles, like 1562 01:29:43.359 --> 01:29:45.680 we we did not start with Peter Waldo. 1563 01:29:46.640 --> 01:29:50.520 And you believe that there were Waldensians in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, 1564 01:29:50.520 --> 01:29:51.560 seventh century. 1565 01:29:52.399 --> 01:29:56.119 The it's it's a possibility that the Vaudois in the 1566 01:29:56.199 --> 01:29:58.800 in the house of Italy, uh, that that they did 1567 01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:00.800 actually trace the roots by that time. 1568 01:30:01.039 --> 01:30:03.399 Okay, and give me some examples of Waldensians in the 1569 01:30:03.399 --> 01:30:09.199 first seven centuries. I don't have anything because it doesn't exist. 1570 01:30:11.880 --> 01:30:13.800 Well, I mean, I guess. 1571 01:30:17.239 --> 01:30:21.039 Meta. 1572 01:30:21.840 --> 01:30:27.359 Hello, yep, hey, so that was pretty abrupt. I just 1573 01:30:27.439 --> 01:30:30.560 have a quick question. So I heard this from an atheist, 1574 01:30:30.560 --> 01:30:32.640 and I honestly didn't really know how to answer it. 1575 01:30:33.479 --> 01:30:38.720 So essentially what he told me was that he agrees 1576 01:30:39.039 --> 01:30:43.439 with Christianity's metaphysical claims to a certain extent, but he 1577 01:30:43.520 --> 01:30:47.239 wants to separate the derivatives of it from the divinity 1578 01:30:47.239 --> 01:30:47.760 of Christ. 1579 01:30:48.239 --> 01:30:49.079 Is that possible? 1580 01:30:52.520 --> 01:30:55.880 I think that's a unique, honest Muslim situation, I mean 1581 01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:00.560 atheist situation, like, yeah, I want all the Christian metaphysics 1582 01:31:00.560 --> 01:31:03.199 but not the Christian God. Well, the metaphysics are grounded 1583 01:31:03.199 --> 01:31:05.760 in the Christian God. So how would you get how 1584 01:31:05.760 --> 01:31:08.840 would you get that? I don't understand meretheism. What's up 1585 01:31:17.840 --> 01:31:19.920 anonymous one dollar? How do you respond the doorcs that 1586 01:31:19.960 --> 01:31:22.800 act like monks in the world, they act like their 1587 01:31:22.960 --> 01:31:26.279 Orthodox talk about all the time. They say to avoid 1588 01:31:26.319 --> 01:31:29.880 all non orthodox, we should only be praying at our 1589 01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:33.800 jobs and at our work. I mean everybody's going to have, 1590 01:31:34.279 --> 01:31:37.920 you know, temptations and flirtations with pre last I mean 1591 01:31:38.920 --> 01:31:41.800 usually what happens to those situations is that they eventually 1592 01:31:41.840 --> 01:31:48.319 burn out and then kind of don't become so annoying. 1593 01:31:48.399 --> 01:31:51.319 Hopefully storm the cat ten dollars, buy your cube. You 1594 01:31:51.359 --> 01:31:55.239 better behave yourself, okay, disciple X one dollar? Reach out 1595 01:31:55.239 --> 01:31:59.479 to Donnie or Marlin at Gospel Truth again. They people 1596 01:31:59.520 --> 01:32:01.960 can come debate here. I'm not going to chase down 1597 01:32:02.000 --> 01:32:08.680 every evangelical quack. Eugenia ten dollars. Thank you, Paul said, 1598 01:32:09.119 --> 01:32:13.039 there's different gifts. I'm glad you found yours. Don't change 1599 01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:17.920 your retorted fund. I won't God forgive me ten dollars lmao, 1600 01:32:18.560 --> 01:32:23.000 Big goon, ten dollars, Lucas dupam, three dollars. Jay from 1601 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:27.159 Brazil shout out. I did the same trick. I was Protestant, 1602 01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:32.399 traditional Catholic and Orthodox, trying to find something Portuguese to 1603 01:32:32.439 --> 01:32:39.159 help my Pentecostal ex girlfriend. Yeah, hopefully something will come about. 1604 01:32:39.439 --> 01:32:43.680 Jordan Flora's ten dollars call into Andrew's debate, ask the 1605 01:32:43.800 --> 01:32:48.119 gay pastor about epistemic questions. I didn't even realize he 1606 01:32:48.199 --> 01:32:51.560 was doing a debate until we had already gotten a 1607 01:32:51.560 --> 01:32:53.760 few hours into those van five dollars. What's your opinion 1608 01:32:53.760 --> 01:32:56.520 on the kilshot argument against Protestants if you had to 1609 01:32:56.600 --> 01:33:00.840 choose one, I start Catechism this week over your content. 1610 01:33:01.159 --> 01:33:04.279 You helped me see God. I respect you word to Christ. 1611 01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:08.520 I mean, there's so many Protestants Protestant problems. 1612 01:33:08.560 --> 01:33:09.000 I don't. 1613 01:33:10.520 --> 01:33:14.079 I think the Canada Scripture is the strongest argument because 1614 01:33:14.680 --> 01:33:16.439 they're always just going to default to that, and if 1615 01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:18.600 you can remove that out from under them, the whole 1616 01:33:18.600 --> 01:33:20.359 thing collapses mirror what's. 1617 01:33:20.199 --> 01:33:27.279 Up either, Jay, I'm a theist, and I'm also someone 1618 01:33:27.279 --> 01:33:31.600 who holds to biological evolution. I'm aware of some of 1619 01:33:31.640 --> 01:33:35.000 your broader philosophical critiques of evolution, and. 1620 01:33:35.319 --> 01:33:36.800 I sympathize with those a lot. 1621 01:33:37.960 --> 01:33:38.800 But have you. 1622 01:33:39.119 --> 01:33:44.680 Addressed any of the specific empirical evidence scientifically for evolution? 1623 01:33:46.000 --> 01:33:49.319 Just in that the empirical evidence requires some sort of 1624 01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:53.199 narrative paradigm interpretation. I don't think that the evidence is 1625 01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:56.840 self interpreting or brute fact or anything like that. So 1626 01:33:56.880 --> 01:34:00.439 they sort of attach, usually some sort of vast assumption 1627 01:34:00.680 --> 01:34:04.479 to the so called evidence, which in many cases is 1628 01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:06.079 I would argue, pretty minuscule. 1629 01:34:08.920 --> 01:34:11.479 And see what you mean? How would you respond to 1630 01:34:11.520 --> 01:34:20.680 the notion that if we take different scientific fields, you know, astrology, biology, geology, 1631 01:34:20.760 --> 01:34:23.000 and then the sub fields of all of those different 1632 01:34:23.600 --> 01:34:24.159 lines of. 1633 01:34:24.079 --> 01:34:27.520 Evidence astrology, and we take our. 1634 01:34:27.439 --> 01:34:30.720 Working assumptions that we have for them presently astrology, and 1635 01:34:30.800 --> 01:34:33.039 stack all of the evidence together, it lines up. 1636 01:34:33.359 --> 01:34:39.840 Bro Astrology is not a science, So I thought that 1637 01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:41.840 was going to be like a scientism man, and he's 1638 01:34:41.840 --> 01:34:48.880 over Henna talking about astrology, Mars monkey. 1639 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:54.800 I need an alien huh, I need an alien yo. 1640 01:34:55.239 --> 01:34:59.239 Top up long of the year right there. It would 1641 01:34:59.239 --> 01:35:02.600 overthrow any people's heads. People have to look up I 1642 01:35:02.640 --> 01:35:03.960 need an alien on YouTube. 1643 01:35:05.119 --> 01:35:06.920 It's an overlooked cringe corp for sure. 1644 01:35:09.520 --> 01:35:11.920 Question what do you. 1645 01:35:14.880 --> 01:35:15.119 When? 1646 01:35:15.640 --> 01:35:18.520 How do you use the argument or how do you 1647 01:35:18.640 --> 01:35:22.680 if I'm trying to bolster an argument using the church's. 1648 01:35:22.319 --> 01:35:24.439 Age and how long we've. 1649 01:35:24.319 --> 01:35:27.560 Been practicing the faith and consistently for all this time. 1650 01:35:28.239 --> 01:35:32.199 But if somebody just says if it's old, just because 1651 01:35:32.199 --> 01:35:33.319 it's oldest mean it's true. 1652 01:35:33.359 --> 01:35:34.319 How do you frame it in. 1653 01:35:34.239 --> 01:35:36.039 A way where it's still valid and you're not falling 1654 01:35:36.079 --> 01:35:36.880 into that fallacy? 1655 01:35:39.520 --> 01:35:43.159 Well, again, it depends on the specific claim that you're refuting. 1656 01:35:43.199 --> 01:35:47.199 So if a Protestant said something like the Orthodox Church 1657 01:35:47.279 --> 01:35:49.720 isn't ancient, like, at that point it would be appropriate 1658 01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:52.600 to prove that it is ancient, that it is old. 1659 01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:56.840 But I do agree that just being old doesn't necessarily 1660 01:35:56.920 --> 01:36:00.479 prove anything because error is old and ancient. So so what. 1661 01:36:05.279 --> 01:36:11.199 Yeah, Okay, one more I had for you was, I mean, 1662 01:36:11.199 --> 01:36:13.119 the way I would transform that argument would be to 1663 01:36:13.159 --> 01:36:16.000 say something like, it's not just a matter of being old, 1664 01:36:16.079 --> 01:36:19.239 but that you have to actually be in historical continuity 1665 01:36:19.279 --> 01:36:23.840 in every generation with the first century Church and. 1666 01:36:23.720 --> 01:36:28.159 The Apostles, and that's what Apostolic succession is partly about. 1667 01:36:28.720 --> 01:36:30.520 So that's where I would take the argument. I wouldn't 1668 01:36:30.560 --> 01:36:33.760 try to argue that, well, we're old. I mean, so what. 1669 01:36:35.960 --> 01:36:36.439 Got it? 1670 01:36:38.279 --> 01:36:42.239 I remember this argument recently from my old Calvinis days, 1671 01:36:42.840 --> 01:36:44.279 and I remembered it. 1672 01:36:44.479 --> 01:36:45.520 I wanted to hear how you. 1673 01:36:45.479 --> 01:36:50.520 Would respond to someone who says, how do how can 1674 01:36:50.560 --> 01:36:53.800 you trust the writers of scripture if they didn't have 1675 01:36:53.880 --> 01:36:56.560 free will or if they yeah, if they didn't have 1676 01:36:56.600 --> 01:37:00.199 free will, Well. 1677 01:37:00.119 --> 01:37:01.600 I don't understand how that relates to Calvin. 1678 01:37:02.640 --> 01:37:05.239 Or rather, if they do have free will, how can 1679 01:37:05.279 --> 01:37:11.520 you trust that the scriptures weren't written in error or transcribed? 1680 01:37:11.880 --> 01:37:16.000 Well, that assumes that that assumes that men aren't necessarily 1681 01:37:16.159 --> 01:37:19.560 going to sin or that they're going to, you know, 1682 01:37:20.359 --> 01:37:24.560 pervert the text. And we believe in synergy that the 1683 01:37:24.720 --> 01:37:27.840 human writers did use their mind and their will, but 1684 01:37:27.960 --> 01:37:31.439 they synergize and harmonize with the divine will. So there's 1685 01:37:31.439 --> 01:37:35.319 no it's not like God possessed them and that they 1686 01:37:35.359 --> 01:37:38.600 had no human interaction. I mean, the scripture is a 1687 01:37:38.680 --> 01:37:41.880 tribute the writings to the human beings that wrote them, 1688 01:37:42.279 --> 01:37:45.039 but also, as Peter says, under the direction and inspirational 1689 01:37:45.039 --> 01:37:50.640 Holy Spirit, we got the banana teen Emperor is here 1690 01:37:51.039 --> 01:37:59.000 to set us straight. What's up? 1691 01:38:01.159 --> 01:38:04.800 Hello? Is this me? I just want to give you 1692 01:38:04.840 --> 01:38:06.000 the kings through the kingdom. 1693 01:38:06.319 --> 01:38:10.960 I Protestant earlier was saying, because Banantheum was gone, there's 1694 01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:14.279 no orthodoxy right if you will be the king? 1695 01:38:14.279 --> 01:38:19.960 Though, thank you, well again, it was just a weird argument, 1696 01:38:20.039 --> 01:38:22.159 So I may just changed the account. See that's what 1697 01:38:22.199 --> 01:38:24.359 I'm saying. Like people want me to unblock these people 1698 01:38:24.439 --> 01:38:26.920 for entertainment value, but like every time there's somebody that 1699 01:38:26.960 --> 01:38:28.319 I blocked, it was for good reason. 1700 01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:35.039 Uh yeah. But seriously, I have a question about. 1701 01:38:34.760 --> 01:38:38.079 Like the Vine liturgy, and you know, you were previously 1702 01:38:38.119 --> 01:38:40.840 a trad cat for a little while, and I was 1703 01:38:40.840 --> 01:38:46.399 wondering if there was anything around the change of the 1704 01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:50.279 Novus Ordo and like post Vatican two, like that went 1705 01:38:50.520 --> 01:38:53.279 against cannons that said you shouldn't change liturgy or anything 1706 01:38:53.319 --> 01:38:55.359 like that, because it just I've been to both masses 1707 01:38:55.399 --> 01:38:57.880 and the lack of reverence just makes me just like 1708 01:38:58.359 --> 01:38:59.319 unconvinced by. 1709 01:38:59.159 --> 01:38:59.960 Walking in the doors. 1710 01:39:00.079 --> 01:39:02.199 Well, I mean, every trad cat will immediately argue that 1711 01:39:02.279 --> 01:39:08.920 Pius the Fifth's uh dogmatic statement about the unalterable tridentine 1712 01:39:09.079 --> 01:39:11.640 mass was violated by Vatican two. 1713 01:39:13.600 --> 01:39:19.520 Oh okay, interesting, what about other little things of liturgical practice, 1714 01:39:19.600 --> 01:39:22.960 like the what's the name for when they face ad orientum? 1715 01:39:23.479 --> 01:39:24.680 Is that the term. 1716 01:39:24.640 --> 01:39:25.119 To the east? 1717 01:39:27.159 --> 01:39:29.159 No, when they face in Roman. 1718 01:39:29.960 --> 01:39:31.880 Is to the east. You're talking about facing the people? 1719 01:39:32.680 --> 01:39:33.840 Yeah, what is that term again? 1720 01:39:35.920 --> 01:39:38.199 Add popular? I don't know, I don't know. 1721 01:39:38.279 --> 01:39:41.560 Yeah, but they started facing it away or towards the people. 1722 01:39:41.560 --> 01:39:45.479 I would say, yeah, that's that's a Protestant influence on 1723 01:39:46.760 --> 01:39:50.359 the liturgy. Okay, interesting, I was just you know, did 1724 01:39:50.399 --> 01:39:55.640 you know they brought in Protestant Lutheran liturgist to help 1725 01:39:55.720 --> 01:39:56.720 craft the Novasorto? 1726 01:39:58.960 --> 01:40:01.239 How specifically? Did not? I know that? That's kind of hilarious. 1727 01:40:01.319 --> 01:40:03.680 Yeah, no, it's his own record. It's not a conspiracy there, 1728 01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:09.399 it's really true. Let me, I'm gonna get you the 1729 01:40:09.479 --> 01:40:15.359 name of the trender. If it's a bull, Uh, it 1730 01:40:15.439 --> 01:40:26.279 is quote primum. Yeah, so that is Pius the fifth supposed. 1731 01:40:26.680 --> 01:40:26.840 Uh. 1732 01:40:27.680 --> 01:40:31.840 Every trade cat will say that, every true trade cat 1733 01:40:31.880 --> 01:40:35.000 will say that this was the papal bull that said 1734 01:40:35.000 --> 01:40:37.840 that you had to use in all Latin rites the 1735 01:40:38.199 --> 01:40:42.000 tridentine missile, and that it's not supposed to be altered. 1736 01:40:42.039 --> 01:40:46.279 It is quote in perpetuity. So that's what the trade 1737 01:40:46.319 --> 01:40:47.119 cats will appoint to. 1738 01:40:48.800 --> 01:40:50.279 And what's the justification from that? 1739 01:40:50.479 --> 01:40:53.239 And then I remember there was something I forget which 1740 01:40:53.279 --> 01:40:55.680 povid was but changed the direction of the cross. 1741 01:40:56.560 --> 01:41:00.279 What's the destigation hold on? What's the dessication for what? 1742 01:41:00.279 --> 01:41:02.760 What's the justification for the fact that one pope said 1743 01:41:02.840 --> 01:41:05.279 never change the direction, and then there was a future 1744 01:41:05.319 --> 01:41:06.319 one that changed the direction. 1745 01:41:06.399 --> 01:41:13.039 That the popes can revise and change their predecessors pronouncements, but. 1746 01:41:13.079 --> 01:41:16.760 They're infallible about safe and morals. 1747 01:41:16.880 --> 01:41:23.079 Who knows. Maybe just just believe it, dude. It doesn't 1748 01:41:23.119 --> 01:41:24.439 have to make it doesn't have to make sense. 1749 01:41:24.520 --> 01:41:26.720 You do have a question about the rosary in all seriousness, 1750 01:41:26.720 --> 01:41:29.880 because I do pray like the Jesus Prayer on a rope, 1751 01:41:30.760 --> 01:41:34.600 but I've heard that some Eastern Orthodox do pray obviously 1752 01:41:34.640 --> 01:41:38.079 the Hail Mary because it is biblical. I mean, the 1753 01:41:38.359 --> 01:41:40.560 whole goal is just not that to be imagined if correct. 1754 01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:44.000 Yeah, I don't think the problem is the problem is 1755 01:41:44.039 --> 01:41:47.880 not the statements themselves. But I mean, it's kind of like, 1756 01:41:48.439 --> 01:41:51.840 what's the point of digging through all the Roman Catholic 1757 01:41:51.920 --> 01:41:54.640 specific things to try to find the things that are 1758 01:41:54.640 --> 01:41:57.840 somewhat Orthodox or amenable to Orthodox? Like, ohle mindset just 1759 01:41:57.880 --> 01:42:01.720 doesn't make sense, and it's almost all always used by 1760 01:42:02.000 --> 01:42:06.319 acuminous minded people. And the other thing is that using 1761 01:42:06.359 --> 01:42:09.680 the rosary and promoting the Rosary gives the impression and 1762 01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:13.800 suggests that Saint Dominic is a saint as well, and 1763 01:42:13.920 --> 01:42:17.199 because he was, Mary gave the Rosary to Saint Dominic. 1764 01:42:17.560 --> 01:42:20.079 It just suggests all these Roman Catholics things, the Catholic 1765 01:42:20.199 --> 01:42:22.680 things that we wouldn't affirm. I don't. I don't believe 1766 01:42:22.720 --> 01:42:26.359 that Mary gave the Rosary to Dominic, But if I 1767 01:42:26.600 --> 01:42:30.199 follow and do the Rosary, it implicitly suggests that, oh well, 1768 01:42:30.199 --> 01:42:31.800 we're all in the same page. We all believe, you know, 1769 01:42:31.920 --> 01:42:37.119 Saint Dominic was cool, and we don't believe that, gotcha. 1770 01:42:37.239 --> 01:42:39.680 Yeah, that's fair, all right. I just wanted to give 1771 01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:40.720 you the keys. 1772 01:42:40.479 --> 01:42:42.520 And thank you for you and thank you. That was 1773 01:42:42.560 --> 01:42:58.359 the banana Tine Emperor Augustine, Augustin Augustin, thank you guys, 1774 01:42:58.439 --> 01:43:07.760 hit like and share what's up man, I'm mute, all right, 1775 01:43:07.960 --> 01:43:17.640 he can't connect. Well, we're uh widowing it down, tim 1776 01:43:18.039 --> 01:43:24.359 whittling it down, Widow, not whittling it down, Timothy, Tim 1777 01:43:24.439 --> 01:43:29.920 or Timothy? What's up? I'm seventy five years old. For 1778 01:43:29.960 --> 01:43:41.439 those that are wondering, are you there, tim we can't 1779 01:43:41.479 --> 01:43:45.199 hear you trying to turn your mic on seth. 1780 01:43:46.079 --> 01:43:47.039 Hey, how's it going? 1781 01:43:47.119 --> 01:43:50.439 Can you hear me? Yes, sir, sweet I just had 1782 01:43:50.439 --> 01:43:55.199 a couple quick things. This is from a. 1783 01:43:56.640 --> 01:43:58.359 I guess I've got a couple of questions from a 1784 01:43:58.399 --> 01:44:04.920 Protestant perspective. I've got some people who have questions for 1785 01:44:05.079 --> 01:44:08.039 me because I'm actually, I don't know if you remember, 1786 01:44:08.159 --> 01:44:11.880 I'm the Lutheran, but I'm actually going to my local 1787 01:44:11.960 --> 01:44:14.079 ro core right now and I'm becoming a cat Ofcuman. 1788 01:44:14.119 --> 01:44:18.760 But there's some there's some stuff it's hard to I 1789 01:44:18.800 --> 01:44:20.600 guess addressed with certain people. 1790 01:44:21.840 --> 01:44:23.720 So I guess I'm gonna argue from their perspective. 1791 01:44:23.880 --> 01:44:24.319 Okay. 1792 01:44:27.319 --> 01:44:29.640 So one of the one of the big things that 1793 01:44:29.720 --> 01:44:33.720 I've I haven't really brought this up specifically because I'm 1794 01:44:33.760 --> 01:44:38.800 not sure exactly how to defend it, but I've heard 1795 01:44:38.800 --> 01:44:40.159 you say and I've heard a lot of people say 1796 01:44:40.159 --> 01:44:44.039 that the Bible is specifically a liturgical text, and that 1797 01:44:44.359 --> 01:44:47.720 devotional reading is good and fine, but that's not the 1798 01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:50.800 primary usage, which seems good and. 1799 01:44:51.119 --> 01:44:52.960 Can correct from what I can tell. 1800 01:44:54.199 --> 01:44:58.119 But I guess, in what sense would it be like 1801 01:44:58.560 --> 01:45:00.840 just read in a liturgy like that's the that's the 1802 01:45:00.840 --> 01:45:02.239 main purpose of it. 1803 01:45:02.439 --> 01:45:04.479 How would you defend that specific view. 1804 01:45:08.359 --> 01:45:11.600 I don't think that it's controversial. If you read liturgical 1805 01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:15.000 scholars or historians of liturgy, I think you'll find them 1806 01:45:15.119 --> 01:45:18.079 being pretty candid about that. I mentioned a couple of 1807 01:45:18.079 --> 01:45:21.720 books earlier that were Protestant books that helped me, uh, 1808 01:45:22.359 --> 01:45:24.560 get out of the soul scripture and mindset. One is 1809 01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:27.640 Formation Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon by Lee McDonald. 1810 01:45:27.720 --> 01:45:30.880 The other one is F. F. Brus's Canada Scripture. So 1811 01:45:31.039 --> 01:45:35.079 two pretty well known famous Protestant evangelical scholars that really 1812 01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:39.399 point out that you can't divorce the scriptures from their 1813 01:45:39.439 --> 01:45:42.439 liturgical setting a milieu. So uh. I think also the 1814 01:45:42.479 --> 01:45:45.840 Hebrew tradition is part of this as well. I mean, 1815 01:45:45.880 --> 01:45:49.279 certainly you could meditate on God's Law Dan Knight, but 1816 01:45:49.560 --> 01:45:53.279 David psalms for example, are written to be sung in 1817 01:45:53.520 --> 01:45:56.319 the liturgical worship of God at the temple or the 1818 01:45:56.359 --> 01:46:00.520 Tabernacle or wherever. So you know, that's the purpose of them. 1819 01:46:00.800 --> 01:46:03.239 You would hear the hearing of the law. Faith comes 1820 01:46:03.279 --> 01:46:04.399 by hearing here by the word of God. 1821 01:46:04.479 --> 01:46:04.640 Right. 1822 01:46:05.000 --> 01:46:08.039 Uh, the hearing of the law would be done by 1823 01:46:08.079 --> 01:46:10.119 the priest. It would be interpreted by the priest the 1824 01:46:10.159 --> 01:46:14.159 synagogue system, right, that's a liturgical setting as well. And 1825 01:46:14.199 --> 01:46:17.680 so just the entire ethos of the Hebrew tradition is 1826 01:46:17.720 --> 01:46:20.760 not about your you know n IV study Bible in 1827 01:46:20.800 --> 01:46:24.239 the park next to the you know, to the oak 1828 01:46:24.319 --> 01:46:25.000 tree or whatever. 1829 01:46:25.479 --> 01:46:27.399 Yeah, if I could, if I could just jump in 1830 01:46:27.439 --> 01:46:28.199 there really quick too. 1831 01:46:28.640 --> 01:46:30.520 I think obviously when. 1832 01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:34.319 Jesus says that to the Pharisees that you search the 1833 01:46:34.399 --> 01:46:37.000 text because you think it is in them that they 1834 01:46:37.039 --> 01:46:39.199 have eternal life, I think it actually applies really well 1835 01:46:39.239 --> 01:46:40.439 to the products mindset. 1836 01:46:40.720 --> 01:46:42.399 Absolutely. I cite that all the time. 1837 01:46:43.760 --> 01:46:46.479 Yeah, And so I guess that's like I've I've been 1838 01:46:46.520 --> 01:46:48.359 out of the soul in scriptori mindset for a while 1839 01:46:48.359 --> 01:46:50.560 and I've just been kind of wrestling with certain with 1840 01:46:50.680 --> 01:46:52.000 certain questions before. 1841 01:46:51.760 --> 01:46:54.800 I Yeah, I would say, uh, you know, get a 1842 01:46:54.840 --> 01:47:00.000 book like the Williams and Anstall book on the Orthodox Littery, 1843 01:47:00.439 --> 01:47:03.960 and then get Hugh Weiber's book Byzantine Liturgy, because Weiber 1844 01:47:04.119 --> 01:47:06.880 is a Protestant, he's an Anglican and he wrote a 1845 01:47:06.880 --> 01:47:09.039 really good book on the history of that Byzantine Liturgy, 1846 01:47:09.079 --> 01:47:11.560 which you know, for example, the first few chapters refused 1847 01:47:11.760 --> 01:47:16.079 Gavin Ortland because he talks about imagery and the you know, 1848 01:47:16.199 --> 01:47:18.680 the structure of the church with an altar and all that. 1849 01:47:18.840 --> 01:47:21.119 I mean, well, that's if that's the early Church, then 1850 01:47:21.159 --> 01:47:23.960 I mean Protestantism is not true because they're having altars, 1851 01:47:24.880 --> 01:47:28.680 which are eucharistic altars. Altars are where you do sacrifice. 1852 01:47:29.319 --> 01:47:32.560 That's not a table Protestants. 1853 01:47:34.239 --> 01:47:41.319 Spencer Coo uh huh, Hey yeah, Jay. 1854 01:47:41.159 --> 01:47:42.880 So I was wanting to ask a question. 1855 01:47:43.359 --> 01:47:47.600 I've been studying a lot of Greg Bonson and Cornelis 1856 01:47:47.680 --> 01:47:52.119 van Hill from a Protestant perspective. That's all I've really known, 1857 01:47:52.239 --> 01:47:55.159 and I understand that you are familiar with those works 1858 01:47:55.199 --> 01:47:58.319 as well. So I wanted to ask the question, what 1859 01:47:58.359 --> 01:48:02.880 do you think about the presuppositionalism of also Gordon Clark. 1860 01:48:03.239 --> 01:48:04.840 Are you familiar with him? 1861 01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:07.680 Yeah? I read a couple of Clark things back in 1862 01:48:07.720 --> 01:48:11.359 the day. But I always sided with Van Till over Clark, 1863 01:48:11.760 --> 01:48:14.520 especially when you get into this idea that the Logos 1864 01:48:14.640 --> 01:48:17.439 is a bunch of propositions, the Bible is a set 1865 01:48:17.439 --> 01:48:20.039 of propositions. I think that, oh, that's just completely stupid. 1866 01:48:21.199 --> 01:48:24.880 Sure, yeah, I really think is empiricism. His critique on 1867 01:48:24.920 --> 01:48:28.159 empiricism quite well, and I think Van Till and everyone 1868 01:48:28.319 --> 01:48:30.840 like Bonsan would agree with him. But at the end 1869 01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:32.720 of the day, I think he ended up concluding that 1870 01:48:32.800 --> 01:48:35.439 you don't get knowledge by sense perception. The only thing 1871 01:48:35.479 --> 01:48:38.880 you could know is from scripture. Just kind of interesting. 1872 01:48:39.520 --> 01:48:41.680 I think you would if I remember. That sounds like 1873 01:48:41.760 --> 01:48:42.680 what he would argue. 1874 01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:45.800 Yeah, that is a that was I was just curious 1875 01:48:45.840 --> 01:48:48.520 if you heard anything from Gordon Clark. I asked Jim 1876 01:48:48.560 --> 01:48:50.960 Bob this while back, and he seemed like he didn't 1877 01:48:50.960 --> 01:48:52.159 know anything about Gordon. 1878 01:48:53.279 --> 01:48:53.399 Uh. 1879 01:48:53.520 --> 01:48:56.840 Now, Jim Bob didn't have like a Calvinist you know, 1880 01:48:58.159 --> 01:49:02.680 uh upbringing or or time. I was really into that 1881 01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:06.800 for a long time. But I remember reading this one thing, 1882 01:49:06.840 --> 01:49:09.399 Hammer of the Heretics by Gordon Clark or something like that. 1883 01:49:09.479 --> 01:49:13.800 I remember reading God's Word that's it, And I read 1884 01:49:14.119 --> 01:49:18.680 his critique event Hill. But the rest of it I 1885 01:49:18.680 --> 01:49:25.640 think is pretty silly, honestly, But thank you for your comment. Interference. 1886 01:49:25.680 --> 01:49:26.039 What's up? 1887 01:49:28.279 --> 01:49:30.119 We have an altar from which those who serve the 1888 01:49:30.119 --> 01:49:34.600 tabernacle no right to eat. Here's Paul calling the eucharistic 1889 01:49:34.800 --> 01:49:41.119 offering an altar that we eat from. And he's contrasting 1890 01:49:41.199 --> 01:49:44.319 the bodies of the animals with the body and blood 1891 01:49:44.319 --> 01:49:49.560 of Christ on our altar, and that we are sanctified 1892 01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:58.680 by Christ's eucharistic blood offering. What's up, man, interference? What's up? 1893 01:50:02.520 --> 01:50:07.279 Oh? Hello, Jay? You believe that God can only know 1894 01:50:07.359 --> 01:50:08.079 all truths? 1895 01:50:09.520 --> 01:50:09.680 Right? 1896 01:50:09.720 --> 01:50:11.279 You're asking them? So you want to ask the same 1897 01:50:11.319 --> 01:50:12.359 guy's question earlier? 1898 01:50:16.239 --> 01:50:16.840 Excuse me? 1899 01:50:17.479 --> 01:50:19.119 Are you in here for the other guy that was 1900 01:50:19.159 --> 01:50:20.039 doing this earlier. 1901 01:50:20.520 --> 01:50:21.319 I want to hear this. 1902 01:50:21.399 --> 01:50:26.279 I want to hear what the argument is from. 1903 01:50:26.399 --> 01:50:26.560 Yeah. 1904 01:50:26.560 --> 01:50:28.319 I don't know what you're referencing, Jay, but I just 1905 01:50:28.359 --> 01:50:30.600 want to know if you take it that God only 1906 01:50:30.640 --> 01:50:33.199 knows all truths, you can't know falsehoods. 1907 01:50:34.399 --> 01:50:38.439 Uh? Well, knowing falsehoods would be propositions that he would 1908 01:50:38.680 --> 01:50:39.479 potentially know. 1909 01:50:39.760 --> 01:50:45.920 Sure, so would he know the proposition that this statement 1910 01:50:45.960 --> 01:50:46.520 is not true? 1911 01:50:46.680 --> 01:50:46.840 Jay? 1912 01:50:48.640 --> 01:50:52.479 Why are you repeating my name with that. Yes, if 1913 01:50:52.479 --> 01:50:54.439 we can know a proposition, God can know it. But 1914 01:50:54.479 --> 01:50:56.399 I don't think that God's mode of knowing is the 1915 01:50:56.399 --> 01:50:57.720 same as the human mode of knowing. 1916 01:51:00.119 --> 01:51:00.680 God knows. 1917 01:51:00.800 --> 01:51:03.600 If God knows all truths and falsehoods, then what about 1918 01:51:03.600 --> 01:51:05.560 the statement that this statement is not true? 1919 01:51:05.800 --> 01:51:14.880 Yeah, God knows paradoxes as well. That's a paradox. What's 1920 01:51:14.920 --> 01:51:17.199 wrong with saying God knows paradoxes but his mode of 1921 01:51:17.239 --> 01:51:18.199 knowing is not ours? 1922 01:51:20.600 --> 01:51:22.359 Well, the problem is would it be true or false 1923 01:51:22.399 --> 01:51:23.159 that he knows it. 1924 01:51:23.159 --> 01:51:25.359 It's a false dichotomy because it's a paradox. 1925 01:51:25.439 --> 01:51:25.600 Read. 1926 01:51:29.800 --> 01:51:32.439 So he just repeats your name, that's what That's what 1927 01:51:32.479 --> 01:51:38.720 these people do. Say it again. Probably didn't go. 1928 01:51:40.279 --> 01:51:42.439 And meta language like these aren't gods. 1929 01:51:42.560 --> 01:51:49.079 Dude, Yes, thank you your ignorance. He just wanted to 1930 01:51:49.119 --> 01:51:52.399 repeat my name because they know that. That's and then 1931 01:51:52.760 --> 01:51:54.840 they repeat the name and then when I boot them, 1932 01:51:54.880 --> 01:51:56.640 they'll say, they'll go clip that put it on their 1933 01:51:56.680 --> 01:51:59.640 channel that I ran bald Man's opinion. 1934 01:52:08.319 --> 01:52:09.159 Hello, O can you hear me? 1935 01:52:11.359 --> 01:52:12.399 Yeah? 1936 01:52:12.520 --> 01:52:16.800 Hey, how's it going. I've never been on one of 1937 01:52:16.840 --> 01:52:20.479 these before, so they're like an allotted time or something 1938 01:52:20.680 --> 01:52:22.520 or uh. 1939 01:52:22.520 --> 01:52:24.920 No, what are you? You have an argument or what 1940 01:52:24.960 --> 01:52:26.279 do you? What's up? What's on your mind? 1941 01:52:27.279 --> 01:52:27.479 Well? 1942 01:52:27.680 --> 01:52:30.479 Uh, I don't know much about you, but I got 1943 01:52:30.560 --> 01:52:35.560 sent here by Rachel Wilson's saying Protestants or Baptist or whatever. 1944 01:52:35.920 --> 01:52:37.680 Should come to you, should come to you if they 1945 01:52:37.720 --> 01:52:42.720 want to talk to somebody who's Orthodox. Cath Are you orthodox? Okay? 1946 01:52:43.439 --> 01:52:48.359 So yeah, yeah, sorry, I had to run away, get the. 1947 01:52:49.840 --> 01:52:52.520 Run away to a private room. 1948 01:52:52.920 --> 01:52:57.760 So I have a contention about I think most Orthodox 1949 01:52:57.880 --> 01:52:59.640 or Catholics don't believe. 1950 01:52:59.359 --> 01:53:03.159 That salvation is by grace through faith, and I make the. 1951 01:53:04.439 --> 01:53:05.720 I'm gonna make the claim that it is. 1952 01:53:07.399 --> 01:53:10.520 Based on Well, we believe that it is, but we 1953 01:53:10.600 --> 01:53:13.159 believe that those words mean different things from you. So 1954 01:53:13.239 --> 01:53:15.560 it's not that we reject the scriptures or don't believe 1955 01:53:15.560 --> 01:53:18.399 in salvation by faith or by grace, but we don't 1956 01:53:18.439 --> 01:53:22.439 believe that it's a legal standing that's imputational, which is 1957 01:53:22.479 --> 01:53:28.720 based on a heretical trinitarian theology, like. 1958 01:53:28.640 --> 01:53:32.279 A legal standing. The word justified is a legal term, 1959 01:53:32.359 --> 01:53:32.640 is it not? 1960 01:53:32.920 --> 01:53:36.359 Yeah, but it's not a purely fictional imputational legal standing. 1961 01:53:36.399 --> 01:53:38.640 That's what I'm saying is impossible because nobody in the 1962 01:53:38.640 --> 01:53:42.159 ancient medieval world were nominalists, and you need nominalism to 1963 01:53:42.199 --> 01:53:42.920 have that position. 1964 01:53:46.600 --> 01:53:47.960 What do you mean by nominalists? 1965 01:53:48.079 --> 01:53:48.520 Sorry? 1966 01:53:49.159 --> 01:53:53.239 Right, So the reformers like Luther relied on medieval nominalists 1967 01:53:53.359 --> 01:53:55.640 like Akham and Bile to figure out how it was 1968 01:53:55.680 --> 01:53:57.960 possible for God to declare people to be a legal 1969 01:53:58.000 --> 01:54:01.880 state that they weren't ontologically that thing. So that's nominalism. 1970 01:54:01.920 --> 01:54:05.239 That it's a name only position, a legal standing position 1971 01:54:05.279 --> 01:54:08.319 that doesn't reflect an actual ontological change in the being. 1972 01:54:08.840 --> 01:54:10.640 And since nobody in the ancient image of the world 1973 01:54:10.880 --> 01:54:15.079 were nominalists until Aukham, that means Paul didn't teach your view. 1974 01:54:18.760 --> 01:54:22.239 Doesn't it say? Everyone's four to five? That's let's see, 1975 01:54:22.319 --> 01:54:23.079 let me call it up here. 1976 01:54:23.840 --> 01:54:25.920 So you're not gonna address what I said. You're gonna blow. 1977 01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:26.239 Past you know. 1978 01:54:26.560 --> 01:54:28.680 I'm trying. I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I'm 1979 01:54:28.680 --> 01:54:29.600 not trying to ignore it. 1980 01:54:32.039 --> 01:54:36.560 Have you read Alistair McGrath? No, what is that funny? 1981 01:54:36.560 --> 01:54:37.279 I don't understand. 1982 01:54:37.800 --> 01:54:40.239 No, I'm just I'm not laughing at you. I'm just saying, no, 1983 01:54:40.359 --> 01:54:41.039 I haven't. 1984 01:54:41.319 --> 01:54:44.000 Well, but you laughed, so I don't understand why it's funny. 1985 01:54:44.920 --> 01:54:47.560 I don't. I don't know it. Just chuckle, dude. Okay, 1986 01:54:47.960 --> 01:54:50.000 I'm a little I've never done one of these before, 1987 01:54:50.079 --> 01:54:52.000 so it's a bit new to me. Maybe more of 1988 01:54:52.039 --> 01:54:52.760 a nervous laughter. 1989 01:54:53.000 --> 01:54:56.000 Okay. Well, McGrath is one of the most famous modern 1990 01:54:56.039 --> 01:54:59.199 Oxford Protestant scholars. He wrote a book called Eustacia Day 1991 01:54:59.239 --> 01:55:01.960 and in that book admits that nobody in the ancient 1992 01:55:02.039 --> 01:55:05.359 medieval world until about fifteen hundreds had the idea of 1993 01:55:05.720 --> 01:55:07.079 justification by faith alone. 1994 01:55:08.319 --> 01:55:12.039 Okay, let me pull up some quotes here, then, didn't 1995 01:55:12.520 --> 01:55:14.239 let me fall some quotes with some church fathers. 1996 01:55:14.279 --> 01:55:17.920 Okay, Yeah, church fathers who believe in appisodic succession and 1997 01:55:17.960 --> 01:55:22.039 the real presence. You think they taught justification faith. Pull on, 1998 01:55:23.520 --> 01:55:25.680 You're going to pull up a bunch of quote minds 1999 01:55:25.720 --> 01:55:28.960 that don't say what I'm saying. They say what you 2000 01:55:29.000 --> 01:55:31.039 think they're saying. So you're going to read into these 2001 01:55:31.159 --> 01:55:33.640 church fathers who also teach the necessity of works and 2002 01:55:33.680 --> 01:55:35.800 they use the real presence. You're going to try to 2003 01:55:35.880 --> 01:55:42.640 quote mind them to prove the Protestant doctrines. Okay, I 2004 01:55:42.720 --> 01:55:44.159 used to be a Protestant, dude, I did all this. 2005 01:55:44.239 --> 01:55:46.920 Don't you think I know what you're going to do? 2006 01:55:47.279 --> 01:55:48.199 What do you you mean? 2007 01:55:48.560 --> 01:55:51.039 I'm just trying to put out a position here and 2008 01:55:52.119 --> 01:55:53.520 I don't I don't. 2009 01:55:53.319 --> 01:55:55.840 Know, like I'm not particularly the Romans for Let's go 2010 01:55:55.840 --> 01:55:58.600 to Romans for when Paul who does? Where does Paul 2011 01:55:58.720 --> 01:56:00.880 site in general? Assistant Romans for. 2012 01:56:02.520 --> 01:56:06.439 Okay, let's just read it here, Romans for three four? 2013 01:56:07.119 --> 01:56:10.119 What say the scripture Abraham believed God and it was kind. 2014 01:56:09.960 --> 01:56:11.199 Of him for righteous? Yes? 2015 01:56:11.359 --> 01:56:13.159 Where is he citing a. 2016 01:56:13.239 --> 01:56:16.640 Romans death Genesis chapter fifteen, verses three. 2017 01:56:16.920 --> 01:56:19.760 Six, Right, Now, tell me this in the Protestant view 2018 01:56:20.600 --> 01:56:23.359 in terms of the transition from rath to grace, as 2019 01:56:23.359 --> 01:56:26.880 the Reformer spoke of, When was that in Abraham's. 2020 01:56:26.359 --> 01:56:30.680 Life Genesis chapter fifteen when it says he believed God? 2021 01:56:30.880 --> 01:56:33.680 Ah, thank you for refuting. Yes, thank you for reputing, 2022 01:56:34.199 --> 01:56:38.479 Thank you for refuting Protestantism, because it's just it's Genesis 2023 01:56:38.520 --> 01:56:42.600 twelve where Abraham first believes and does several chapters of 2024 01:56:42.640 --> 01:56:46.199 good works before Genesis fifteen. So you just refuted Protestantism 2025 01:56:46.199 --> 01:56:46.920 in Romans. 2026 01:56:46.640 --> 01:56:51.399 For No, because you read you read the rest of 2027 01:56:51.399 --> 01:56:55.520 the chapter. It's talking about Genesis chapter fifteen or so. 2028 01:56:55.560 --> 01:56:58.640 You literally heard nothing I said, and you're not addressing area. 2029 01:56:58.680 --> 01:57:02.039 You don't even understand the argument, You're you're blowing past 2030 01:57:02.159 --> 01:57:02.760 the argument. 2031 01:57:04.039 --> 01:57:06.560 May maybe I'm just not quite getting with you right. 2032 01:57:06.479 --> 01:57:10.119 You're not correct. Do you want me to state it again? Sure, 2033 01:57:10.960 --> 01:57:15.399 the transition from wrath to grace should be Genesis twelve, 2034 01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:20.920 not fifteen. So by Paul citing Genesis fifteen, you refute 2035 01:57:21.439 --> 01:57:22.920 the Protestant position. 2036 01:57:26.279 --> 01:57:28.439 I'm sorry, I don't follow that because