WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.960 Do you know what real power is? It's knowing you're 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.719 on the same rate for energy all day, every day 3 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:08.640 with a smart all day plan from board Gosh Energy, 4 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:11.000 save up to eight hundred and eighty euro on dual 5 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.519 fuel plus get a two hundred and thirty five eure 6 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.440 a welcome bonus switch today at Boardgosh Energy dot ie 7 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:21.359 Board Gosh Energy. Know your power estimation anuel bill at 8 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:23.920 twenty six hundred twenty nine. Your new customers only thurship 9 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.440 centis Kentov Smart all Day Electricity UNI rates in twenty 10 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:27.160 nine percent of gas. 11 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:31.320 See pocash Energy dot E for fulltiesncies. Oh hey, it's 12 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.439 your coworker who makes bunt cakes, Ali Ward. And speaking 13 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:36.200 of work, let's get right into it. How are we doing? 14 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:38.359 How are our brains? How are you feeling? Are you 15 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.320 feeling like a little bit like wilted lettuce? You feel 16 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:43.960 in like a swollen infection? Get a pop? We get it, 17 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:46.079 I get it. So this episode has been a long 18 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:48.560 time coming, and I cornered one of the world's leading 19 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.240 experts on burnout. They got their MBA at the University 20 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:54.759 of Oregon and a Doctorate of Education at the University 21 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:58.039 of Pennsylvania, where they are currently a senior Fellow. They're 22 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:01.880 the director of the Penmaster in Medical Education program too. 23 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:05.040 They wrote the book on burnout. It's called Burnout Immunity 24 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:08.400 so Ergo Pathology. It's the science of ergon, which is 25 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.359 work in Greek and pathology, which is something bad. But 26 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.480 what exactly is burnout? Okay, obviously we're going to cover it, 27 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:22.840 but if you're experiencing exhaustion, cynicism, and professional inefficiency, you're 28 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.920 going to want to keep listening before we get to it. 29 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:25.159 Though. 30 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:27.680 Thank you to all the patrons at patreon dot com 31 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.560 for submitting your questions for this episode. You can get 32 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.920 sneak peaks at future episodes, and you can submit questions 33 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:36.519 for them by joining Patreon for as low as a 34 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.640 dollar a month and for zero dollars. Thank you to 35 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:43.239 everyone leaving reviews which helped the show so much. Like 36 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.799 for example, this week Euphonium Shorty left a review that said, 37 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.840 I couldn't possibly care less about the making of street murals. 38 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:51.959 At least that's what I thought until Ali explained it 39 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:53.519 all to me. That's happened to me at least a 40 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:55.560 dozen times with this podcast. That's why I love it 41 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.200 amazing really the frequency with which they come out. If 42 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.799 I could change one thing they write, it'd be Ali 43 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.920 taking better care of herself. Euphonium shorty Timely. I'm doing 44 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.639 much better, and I'll tell you how I balance life 45 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.000 with work that I legitimately love. Also, speaking of love, 46 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:14.879 lots of love. Back to reviewer, Amari, you know who 47 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.599 you are. Okay, let's get into it. Please take a 48 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.000 load off, Lie down on a carpet, you can recline 49 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:23.680 against tree trunk. Take some time to listen and absorb 50 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:27.879 the teachings about what is burnout, who burns out faster 51 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:31.400 than others, who doesn't burn out? What professions are more 52 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.080 at risk for fatigue and mental health repercussions, How do 53 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.639 you tell your boss you're burned out? Neurodiversity and burnout grit, 54 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.479 The myths of guilt, hockey mascots, childhood trauma and lingering anxiety, 55 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.599 and how to tell your brain to tell your body 56 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:48.039 that you got this and when to acknowledge no, I 57 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.039 do not got this. Baby needs to rest. Also how 58 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.439 you don't need to wait until you're onotropical vacation to recharge, 59 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:59.039 in fact, don't with scholar author and burnout expert, ergo 60 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:21.280 pathologist for candy weeds. 61 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:23.439 Candy weens, she her mm hmm, burnout expert. 62 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.000 How does it happen this one become a burnout expert 63 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.280 just like diving right in. I'm like, tell me everything. 64 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:33.680 Well, let me tell you. When I was probably nine, 65 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:35.800 ten years old, that's the last thing I ever thought 66 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.120 I would be. In fact, I don't even hear the 67 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.159 word burnout until just probably, I don't know, eight, well 68 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:44.520 twelve years ago. So becoming a burnout expert for me anyways, 69 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.039 started with me having a life threatening wake up call 70 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:50.879 experience with burnout, the kind where I was having a 71 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:55.599 hypertensive emergency and just decided to go on a quest 72 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:57.479 to figure out like what was going on with me, 73 00:03:57.719 --> 00:03:59.439 learn how to deal with my stress. And then as 74 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.840 I started nerding out and geeking out on the whole thing, 75 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:05.919 I decided to go get my doctorate. I just it 76 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:07.439 was like one of those I'm Okay, I'm going to 77 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:09.759 go figure this out for real. I'm going to science 78 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:11.240 the shit out of this thing, and I'm going to 79 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.719 find out why some people just seem to be somewhat 80 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:18.319 immune to burnout. They are clearly experiencing a lot of stress, 81 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:21.680 but they work alongside people like me that are experiencing 82 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:24.160 the same sort of stressers, but they're not burned out. 83 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:25.560 What's going on with them? 84 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.519 Can you tell me a little bit about that hypertensive 85 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.800 emergency if it's not true traumatic, But what was the 86 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:36.079 moment you realized that it was related to stress? 87 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:39.480 Yeah? So, at the time, this is back in twenty eleven, 88 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:42.240 I was a management consultant, on the road a lot, 89 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.199 had three young kids at home, living the whole type 90 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:48.600 a personality sort of career. Loved what I did, threw 91 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.360 myself into it, super engaged in work, loved my colleagues 92 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.040 and my clients and all of that. And I felt 93 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:56.160 at the time like I was experiencing a lot of stress, 94 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:57.800 but to me, it felt like the good kind of 95 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:01.040 keeping myself motivated sort of stress, alongside a lot of 96 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:04.319 the other bad stress too. But my approach back then 97 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:06.759 was just stuff that stress, like, put it in a box, 98 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:08.639 put it in a put that box in a closet, 99 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:11.600 like lock that closet, and don't touch that stress until 100 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:14.120 you're ready for it. What happened was when I had 101 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.439 this hypertensive emergency, which I had no idea I was 102 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:20.519 even having one. I went into my doctor's office just 103 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:23.680 for a routine annual physical you know that kind where 104 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:25.519 you go in and they check your blood pressure and 105 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:27.920 they check all your vital signs and you're in and 106 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:30.000 out in about twenty minutes. They give you your a and 107 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:32.600 say see you back here next year. I thought it 108 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:34.560 was one of those, But what happened was I was 109 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:37.600 in the exam room, the nurse checked my vital signs, 110 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.600 She checked my blood pressure four times before saying anything, 111 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:42.199 and the only thing she said to me was I'm 112 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.240 going to go talk to the doctor. And instead of 113 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:49.399 like taking that seriously and thinking, holy caw, like what 114 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:51.319 is this about? What's going on with my blood pressure? 115 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.480 Instead I picked up my phone and started working again 116 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.199 because that was the norm for me. And I know, 117 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.199 it's like I'm hearing stories from so many people that 118 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.959 that's what they would have done too, because the stress 119 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.720 I was feeling at the time had just become to 120 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.720 feel so normal to me that I wasn't recognizing the 121 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:09.959 fact that when my doctor came in she told me 122 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.879 that my blood pressure was two hundred over one ten. Yeah, 123 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:15.439 I didn't know what that meant at the time. 124 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:17.399 Just a side note, I had to look this up. 125 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:21.480 Normal blood pressure one twenty over eighty it's considered high 126 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:26.199 around one thirty over eighty. Stage two is like one forty. 127 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.319 But if you get a blood pressure reading over one 128 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.720 eighty over one twenty, you need to call nine one 129 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.040 one or go to the er immediately, like you could 130 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.040 die on the spot. And again, doctor Weens was two 131 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.839 hundred over one ten. What so, this is what's called 132 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:46.639 a hypertensive crisis, and it's usually caused by people forgetting 133 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:50.079 to take blood pressure meds, or kidney disease underlying or 134 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:57.000 heart disease, some pregnancy complications, taking meth or really high anxiety. 135 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.639 And according to the CDC, heart disease is the leading 136 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:03.680 cause of death for women in the United States, killing 137 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.360 over three hundred thousand women in twenty twenty one, or 138 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:10.040 about one in every five female deaths. We do have 139 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.839 a cardiology episode coming up, of course, but yeah, her 140 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:16.480 blood pressure was well into the range of all hands 141 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:17.319 on deck, holy shit. 142 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.680 And then of course she gave me a huge delsa xanax, 143 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:24.040 which I'd never had before, and brought my blood pressure 144 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:28.120 down and so like an hour later, she called my 145 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:30.240 husband to have them come pick me up, and about 146 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:32.879 an hour later I was finally stable enough where they 147 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.000 could send me home and not to the emergency room. 148 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.480 I was basically like ordered to be on bed rest 149 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.800 for several days. And my first thought when she told 150 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.360 me that was there's no way I can be on 151 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:45.879 bed rest because I have this big leadership development program 152 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:49.240 to run, and I almost panicked, like it almost sent 153 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.800 me back into another stress spiral. But then the second 154 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:56.120 thought was, well, thank god, someone's finally telling me I 155 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.519 can go home and rest, like giving me a permission 156 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.879 to rest, because because I wasn't giving myself enough rest. 157 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.199 And I hear this so often from people that I 158 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.120 work with and people who hear me speak. But then 159 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:11.040 my third thought was, you know, she's absolutely right. My 160 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.399 doctor is telling me I'm not fine. I need to 161 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.040 take this seriously. I need to stay home and not work. 162 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:19.199 And so for a few days, laying on the couch 163 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.360 on xanax and blood pressure medicine, I had a lot 164 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.759 of time to think and started reading some books and 165 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.480 started digging around on you know, what are the best 166 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.079 stress management techniques and doing to sell so a lot 167 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.480 of self reflection, and it started to dawn on me 168 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.360 then that I needed help. I needed to make changes 169 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:39.759 because my work environment was not going to change anytime soon, 170 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.639 so I needed to think about for myself what were 171 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:45.600 some immediate things I could do. But then also it 172 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.240 really dawned on me too, like longer term, I really 173 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.399 need to find a work environment and the right conditions 174 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.240 where I can really thrive without burning out. So that's 175 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.080 kind of how it started my interest and my geeky 176 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.240 curiosity on stress and burnout, and then it eventually turned 177 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.919 into me wanted to get my doctorate so I could 178 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:04.759 study it for real. 179 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:10.159 When you realized that you had to make some changes, 180 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:13.000 where do you start, Like did the doctor say like, 181 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:15.080 oh okay if you need to matter or are they just like 182 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:17.480 your blood pressure's good. You got to figure out the rest. 183 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:21.080 So it was like, you know, gave me medicine and 184 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:23.080 told me to go home and basically figure it out 185 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:25.919 for myself. She didn't recommend anything at all. And this 186 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.120 was again back in twenty eleven, where very few people, 187 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.840 if any, were talking about burnout, Like I wasn't really 188 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.399 hearing about it, and I worked in healthcare consulting, so 189 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:36.960 it wasn't really until like twenty twelve, twenty thirteen that 190 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:40.279 I started reading studies about this stuff and reading some 191 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:43.639 other stress management books and like practitioner kinds of books. 192 00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:46.320 But then when I started digging into the research, I 193 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.679 started seeing, Okay, there is this thing called burnout, and 194 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:50.360 then I was able to put my finger on what 195 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:51.440 I was experiencing. 196 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:55.559 What exactly Looking back, now that you have your doctorate 197 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.919 and now you've been working in this for so long, 198 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.080 can you pick apart a little bit of what was 199 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:04.759 happening during a burnout episode. I imagine that it can 200 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.159 show up in your heart or your brain. I imagine 201 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.519 that whatever crisis people might finally get to can show 202 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.879 up at all kinds of ways. 203 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.159 Right, So they're really a number of ways that we 204 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.080 can pay attention to the fact that stress is turning 205 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.279 into something that's a little bit more dangerous, potentially getting 206 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.360 to a point where we're going to break down or burnout. 207 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.440 And I would say, first and foremost pay attention to 208 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:31.000 the physical science. Most of us can notice things like headaches, 209 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.559 not sleeping well, not being interested in exercise, not being 210 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:37.159 interested in intimacy with our partner, you know, all kinds 211 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:40.919 of physical manifestations that if we were to just really 212 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:43.639 pay attention, they are there. Those signs are there. But 213 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.360 then also like some of the psychological ways that burnout manifests, 214 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:51.639 that things like just lack of interest in things that 215 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:55.240 we once love to do, starting to feel more negative 216 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:58.720 and cynical about work or about other people, And then 217 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.679 we also might notice changes in our relationships. Some people 218 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.360 tell me that they notice the first signs of burnout 219 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.480 when they start to notice their relationships are kind of 220 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.480 fraying and starting to become more tense, that they start 221 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:11.960 lashing out, maybe at people that they really love or 222 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.279 they even enjoy working with. So there are a number 223 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.000 of ways that you can pay attention to how stress 224 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.600 is affecting you, and it's really noticing the fact that 225 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.960 burnout is really this thing that can be quite insidious, 226 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.519 meaning that it can really sneak up on you if 227 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:33.480 you're just going through the motions of life and keeping 228 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:35.600 with the grind that you've always been doing, which was 229 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:37.720 my case and a lot of people that I talk 230 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.279 to who have been burned out, that's how they experience 231 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:44.519 it because they're so focused on performing or achieving or 232 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:48.679 helping other people or just juggling life and family and 233 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.919 everything all at once that it's really easy to lose 234 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.600 track of what's going on with yourself. 235 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:01.159 And what's happening. From a scientific perspective, I know, the 236 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.440 amygdala has so many things to say when it comes 237 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.840 to stress. I know, we've got cortisol, we've got adrenaline, 238 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:12.360 we've got dopamine, we've got serotonin, We've got all kinds 239 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.679 of things going on. What is happening under stress where 240 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.440 it finally, just like the roof caves in. 241 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.919 Well, so for some people it caves in on a 242 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.240 physical level, and burnout for the most part, is a 243 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.639 psychological experience. With stress. Our body goes through all kinds 244 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:32.480 of chemical reactions when our amygdala goes off. It's that 245 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.120 part of our brain that triggers the fight flight or 246 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:38.519 freeze response. And very few of us, though, are actually 247 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.360 threatened by bears coming out of nowhere. 248 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:43.879 Yeah, I mean chased by. 249 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.799 A tiger or you know, in my case, I actually 250 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.000 am going through something that it's not physically threatening, but 251 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.720 it's psychologically threatening to me. So that to me is 252 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.840 much more stressful than something like coming on the Ologies podcast. 253 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:01.000 I was nervous to come on and also excited. Like 254 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.840 there's stress involved in both of those scenarios, but one 255 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.519 triggers a threat response to stress. The other one, coming 256 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:11.279 on your podcast triggers what's known as the challenge response 257 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:13.960 to stress. So our body is going to react differently 258 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.919 in each of those situations. And what's really important what 259 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:20.440 I write about in my book is learning how to 260 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.000 pay attention to those science so that you can regulate 261 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.080 your nervous system. Whether you're truly being threatened or if 262 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.200 the stressor is something that you are excited about and 263 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.200 looking forward to, you can learn how to regulate your 264 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:36.200 nervous system in a healthy, productive way so you can 265 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:37.159 show up as your best. 266 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.600 So doctor Weens says that the challenge response to stress 267 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.360 kicks in when we want to perform or achieve something, 268 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:47.519 and why it doesn't freak you out is because you've 269 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.600 told yourself that it's not life threatening, and so your 270 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.399 body uses those fight or flight hormones, like if you 271 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.720 are exercising or trying to beat your brother in law 272 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.840 in a potato sack race. So the challenge response gives 273 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:02.639 you energy and focus and motivation and just a little 274 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:05.559 bit of swagger. So how do you respond that way 275 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.759 instead of throwing up in a garbage can before your 276 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:12.799 annual performance review. Doctor Weens writes that you have to 277 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:17.279 like gently brainwash yourself, or you have to unbrainwash yourself 278 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:21.320 by telling yourself inside, hey, you can do it. You 279 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.759 can go crush this. So don't try to suppress the 280 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:26.960 stress because that makes it worse, and she says to 281 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:30.159 tell yourself, I'm stressed right now, but that's okay. I've 282 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:34.679 experienced stress before. I always get through it, or say hey, 283 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.039 why not go for broke. I'm stressed right now, but 284 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.159 this ain't my first rodeo, and I'm going to kick 285 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.600 some ass, she writes in her book. She also says 286 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.840 other quick mindset shifts include remembering all your strengths, remembering 287 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.360 all the prep you did for the challenge, all the 288 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:54.960 times you overcame similar challenges, imagining your loved ones rooting 289 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.120 for you, or having a mantra like I've got this, 290 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:00.600 I can handle this, or again. Her personal favorite is 291 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.559 this ain't my first rodeo, and she confesses in her 292 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.039 book that she'll actually wear a T shirt that says 293 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.720 this ain't my first rodeo under her suits when she 294 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:14.559 gives like a big keynote, I tell myself to show 295 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.720 up like you belong and have fun, which I guess 296 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.879 I didn't realize that I was shifting my terror into 297 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.519 a challenge response to stress. And I have to do 298 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:27.240 it every week before I record HI doing it right now. 299 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.039 Neuroscience researchers who look at this stuff and look at 300 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:34.039 really all the chemical reactions to stress and not just burnout, 301 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:37.200 but every everyday stress for long periods of time. Sometimes 302 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.039 that may lead to burnout, other times it may not. 303 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.840 It main lead to other psychological conditions. But yeah, when 304 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:45.440 we get stressed, and that turns on our nervous system, 305 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:48.159 and that nervous system switch is turned on for a 306 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:49.960 long period of time or it gets stuck in the 307 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.200 on position. We start to burn through our adrenaline first 308 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:55.919 and then our cortisol kicks in, and that's meant to 309 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:59.559 protect us. But over time, burning through all that cortisol 310 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.879 really really quickly can lead to other physical symptoms. It 311 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.159 will immediately cause your blood vessels to constrict, so you're 312 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.200 then experiencing lack of oxygen and healthy blood flow to 313 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.159 your brain, which then puts you in what we call 314 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:17.559 fast thinking mode. So it's like a chain reaction where 315 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:22.480 we first have an unconscious physical reaction through the release 316 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.039 of these kinds of hormones, you know, whether it's adrenaline 317 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.440 or cortisol, or in some cases with good stress, it's 318 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.919 dopamine and oxytocin and other things that help us manage stress. 319 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:35.759 But it's those physical things that happen without us even 320 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:39.600 knowing it before we start to fill the psychological effects 321 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.759 of stress and then eventually burn out. 322 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.240 So the chemical background here is that adrenaline helps you 323 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.480 survive in physical stress. It gives you this fuel boost 324 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.080 in the form of glucose, which helps you get out 325 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.679 a dodge or fight or hide in a bush or 326 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.399 whatever it takes to evade an attack. Now, the hormone cortisol, 327 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.080 this is our lined in the Frontiers and Psychology paper 328 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.640 Burnout and Hypocortisolism a matter of severity. Cortisol responses to 329 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:11.359 acute psychosocial stress. Cortisol gives us the energy mobilization to 330 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.640 fight off that attack, but as anyone who's ever had 331 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.839 nervous diarrhea knows, it's not always helpful. And it continues 332 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:23.519 this paper that long term exposure to stressful circumstances without 333 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.599 enough recovery is hypothesized to be the cause of fatigue 334 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:32.680 and exhaustion symptoms in people experiencing burnout. So things might 335 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:37.359 be happening physically to you under stress, but like your 336 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.240 own bo sometimes you can't even detect it. You're just 337 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.240 accustomed to it, and you might not even notice your 338 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.240 burnout and your anxiety symptoms until your body's very mad 339 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.079 at you or your sanity starts to fray. And I'm 340 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:51.759 speaking from experience. Do you think some people are more 341 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:55.000 predisposed to burnout? It's like, if you have an anxiety 342 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:59.640 disorder pre existing, or you have depression, or if you're neurodivergent, 343 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:05.079 do those people tend to push beyond their limits or 344 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:07.400 have a lower threshold for this kind of stuff. 345 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.920 Yeah, so there's interesting research that shows the relationship between 346 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:14.799 You can look at it by temperament, So each of 347 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.519 us is born with a certain type of temperament that 348 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:20.920 doesn't necessarily change as we age and get older, and 349 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:24.440 then we also all have personality traits that may change 350 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:28.559 through life experiences. Anxiety is an interesting ones. So people 351 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:33.000 who have just like underlying anxiety disorders or tend to 352 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.440 be one of the personality traits as neuroticism. So people 353 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.920 who are high on the neuroticism scale it's great, tend 354 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.720 to be more prone to burnout in certain contexts because 355 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:46.200 they are more easily triggered. But it's also not just 356 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.000 with people who tend to run anxious. I would say 357 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.480 what's important to look at for everybody is not necessarily 358 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.039 whether you have an anxiety disorder or depression or anything 359 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.200 like that, but really think about the interaction between what 360 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.799 you want and need out of a work and life 361 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.519 environment and what you're actually getting. What is the environment 362 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.759 that you're actually in, because it's really the interaction between 363 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.359 you and that environment that makes you more vulnerable to 364 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.759 burnout in certain contexts are in certain environments. 365 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.559 Yeah, I'm laughing about the neuroticism because we did a 366 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:23.720 Personality Psychology episode. I took a test and it was like, 367 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:28.319 You're neuroticism is so high we can barely measure it. 368 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:33.000 It was just like they know, so I know definitely 369 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:36.119 some of us are predisposed. And we'll link to that 370 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.200 Personality Psychology episode. It is a banger. We'll put that 371 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:41.200 in the show notes. But the cheat sheet is that 372 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.759 there is a scholarly five factor model of these five 373 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:52.440 core personality traits, which are agreeableness, conscientiousness, extraversion, neuroticism, and openness. 374 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:54.920 And there was a twenty twenty three study titled the 375 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.240 Big Five Model Personality Traits and Job Burnout a Systematic 376 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:03.200 Literature Review, and it showed that higher levels of neuroticism 377 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:09.839 and lower levels of agreeableness, conscientiousness, extraversion, and openness are 378 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.480 associated with higher levels of burnout. No surprise. So the 379 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:18.160 neuroticism and hiding from the world and being stubborn that 380 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:21.200 I think protects me from failure, Nope, it does not. 381 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:24.799 Why are we like this? Do you think that there's 382 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.440 anything in our past that makes us more prone to 383 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:34.480 pushing through? I understand things like, you know, childhood trauma 384 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:39.279 or codependency issues, things like that might make us take 385 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:46.680 on more than we necessarily should be handling. Does childhood 386 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:51.119 experience or does codependency or just like I can give 387 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:54.799 more than the average person because I should, Does that 388 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.559 figure into being predisposed for burnout? 389 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:02.279 It absolutely does. Yeah, absolutely, So if you think about, 390 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.960 like what really contributes to my vulnerability to burnout? In 391 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:09.240 yours alle your vulnerability might be different, it's two things, 392 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.000 like what are we born with? We're born with a 393 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.359 certain kind of temperament and personality, but then also what's 394 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.079 the environment, what are the conditions that we're exposed to 395 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.160 in our early childhood all the way up until where 396 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.720 we are today, And so, you know, aside from personality 397 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.720 and temperament, which are hard for us to change in general, 398 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.680 when we are able to reflect on the early experiences 399 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.400 we had in childhood, and not just the experience itself, 400 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.480 but who helped us or who did not help us 401 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:37.680