WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.240 Welcome to the Kinds I View Podcast. That intro music 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.279 was terrible. I'm sorry, I don't know what happened to 3 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:17.199 our old I've lost our original intrum music. We'll fix it. 4 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:20.960 This is one of the endearing aspects of the show 5 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:26.839 is its utter lack of professionality. Anyway, we're going to 6 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:31.519 be wading into some treacherous waters today. We're gonna be 7 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:40.439 talking theology christology, and I'm an amateur. So I want 8 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:42.840 to make a vow to you up front. If you 9 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:47.280 feel like I got something wrong, listen, don't. I don't 10 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:51.320 want like I'm not soliciting, like I think you're wrong 11 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:54.079 about this. Like I get it. We all have different opinions. 12 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:58.439 But if you can like teach me something, you know, 13 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:02.520 like hey, actually you know this person did some work 14 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.000 and shows this, or actually you know you said this 15 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.239 religion thinks that, but actually, you know, look here's the Catechism, 16 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:13.560 page two hundred. They actually think this, you know what 17 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:18.079 I mean? Like, I love learning. So if I get 18 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:20.599 something wrong, please tell me, and I promise to correct 19 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:24.879 it publicly on the show. That is my commitment to you. 20 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.400 But you know, please do a little bit of work 21 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:31.280 and just actually teach me something. Don't don't just say well, 22 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:35.079 I believe you know. This is a real problem, not 23 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:37.879 from you guys. You guys are great, especially my Core 24 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:43.840 one hundred. I need a better name my mythical my 25 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:50.680 mystical century, and I'm the Centurion. That's kind of a larp. 26 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.319 Let's just stick with my Core one hundred, the Core 27 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:55.640 one hundred. You guys provide me great feedback, Thank you, 28 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.480 I appreciate it. But just in general, there is like 29 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:04.079 this are humentation style where you just state your opinion 30 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:08.560 as like evidence and it's not evidence, you know. And 31 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:11.120 I'm not saying listen, I don't need a bibliography. I 32 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:16.680 get it. I make claims all the time. But usually 33 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:18.960 when I say something, it's like it's it is based 34 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.439 on something I've heard or read. You know, I could 35 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:26.240 be incorrect, the source could be wrong. But I generally 36 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:31.400 don't just like say I think this. Maybe I do. 37 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.039 I don't know, but hey, listen, it's my show. I'm 38 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:39.400 gonna keep doing whatever I do. But I guess what 39 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:42.000 I'm saying is I would I really welcome feedback because 40 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.199 we're gonna be getting into some treacherous waters. I just 41 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:47.560 want it to be informative feedback. I want to learn 42 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:51.280 something from your feedback, and I will correct myself publicly. 43 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:56.639 And so we're gonna be talking about did Jesus claim 44 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:00.400 to be God? And we're gonna be listening to the 45 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:08.560 two most informed people on this topic who have polarized 46 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.520 completely opposite perspectives. So I think the first thing to 47 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.759 acknowledge is that there are brilliant people who think that 48 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:21.199 Jesus never claimed to be God, and there are brilliant 49 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:25.000 people who think that there is plenty of evidence that 50 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.759 Jesus claimed to be God. So right there, like hopefully 51 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:33.800 we can sort of like exhale, take the temperature down, 52 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:39.080 and automatically understand that we're not really going to answer 53 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:46.039 the question today. This is about learning, informing, and you know, 54 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.280 maybe sharing some opinion on my part for sure, But 55 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:52.439 mostly I think I just want this to be educational 56 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:59.159 and no matter what you believe, I want you to feel. Hmm, 57 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.039 what do I want you to feel? I mean, I'll 58 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:03.039 be honest, My bias is that I kind of want 59 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:06.240 you to feel that Jesus did claim to be God. 60 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.479 But maybe that doesn't mean exactly what most people think 61 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.560 that means. I guess I think that's gonna be my stance. 62 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.360 We'll see, we'll see. But anyway, before we get into 63 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:22.360 the heavy stuff, I had a weird experience today, and 64 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:24.000 I want you to let me know if you think 65 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:27.360 I'm a horrible father or a good father, I'm on 66 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.199 the fence. There was a moment where I felt like, 67 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:34.000 so I'm so creative, you know, And then there was 68 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.160 a moment where like, oh my god, I've ruined my son. 69 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:41.000 So as you might know, as you might remember, my 70 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.600 wife's out of town. She gets back tomorrow, and it's 71 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:50.040 been you know, I've got brilliant, creative kids. They aren't brilliant. 72 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:55.920 They're kind, they're empathetic, but you know, with all of 73 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.680 that comes some stubbornness, you know, just like I was, 74 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.560 just like I was. And so my daughter's four years 75 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:08.079 older than my son, and so she's kind of like 76 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.839 because of us, you know, not not of her own will. 77 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:15.759 She's kind of had to adopt, like become like a 78 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:20.079 backup parent. I think this is a very common eldest 79 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:26.000 child trait. You know, you've been around longer, ye're more 80 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:30.120 with it, and like you can sort of help your parents. 81 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:33.920 I was an oldest child. My I had two half sisters. 82 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.240 One is seven years younger than me and one is 83 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:39.399 fourteen young years younger than me. Now, I only really 84 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.519 ever lived with one of my sisters, and only for 85 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.360 a few years before I moved across the country to 86 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.639 my dad's house at twelve. But even for those few years, 87 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.120 like you, yeah, you're the back, you're like helping, like, hey, 88 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.600 tell your sister to sit down, you know. And so 89 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.360 my daughter's constantly am especially with my wife's out of town. 90 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.639 I'm like, please, can you just help me get your 91 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:07.439 brother to buckle his seat belt. It's the things he chooses, 92 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.639 Like he just determines, like no, I'm going to get 93 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.160 a sprite, and I will make a scene in the 94 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.720 coffee shop if I don't get a sprite. And so 95 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.279 it's like I'm like to my daughter, like, can you 96 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.199 just take your brother and sit outside for second on 97 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.319 that table right there and just let me finish this transaction, 98 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:30.279 you know. Anyway, So today we got in one of 99 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.839 those situations and I had had to put the hammer down, 100 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:38.160 I had to take the iPads away because I was 101 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:40.399 asking them to clean up the house and my daughter 102 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:42.839 was doing all the cleaning. My son was refusing to clean, 103 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.079 so I was like, okay, iPads away, and I sent 104 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.920 my son to his room, and then my daughter kept 105 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.360 cleaning up. But there was this moment where like my 106 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.519 daughter was like coaching my son, like why don't you 107 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.199 just clean up? Like then you won't be in trouble, 108 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.759 you know what I mean? And uh, this is like 109 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:07.360 a recurring pattern. And I'm realizing, like you know it 110 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.839 is it is an eldest child trait, but also like 111 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:15.040 you want your kids to be like buddies, right like 112 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:17.759 you don't you don't want one of your kids to 113 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:22.600 look at their sibling as like just another parent, like 114 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:26.120 a narc you know, like whose team are you on? 115 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:28.879 You know, I don't know. Maybe that's the wrong way 116 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.319 of thinking about it. So I I when my son 117 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:33.160 was in his room, I pulled my daughter aside and 118 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:36.920 I said, Hey, here's what we're gonna do. I want 119 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:41.720 you And I'm realizing this, I'm admitting something that's a 120 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.600 little embarrassing, but it's like I want you here here 121 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.160 the iPads. I want you to go in the room 122 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.720 and pretend like you stole these, like you've got them 123 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:55.439 out of hiding and that you've snuck them, You've snuck 124 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.639 the contraband into the room, you know, because I because 125 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.000 I can. There's like there's like animosity growing between my kids, 126 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.480 you know. My my son feels like everybody is his parents, 127 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:09.639 you know. And so I was like, I just want 128 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.279 you guys to be buds. Just go back there, just play, 129 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:18.720 you know, I'll collaid and uh. And they did. And 130 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.319 I told my daughter like, if I come back there, 131 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.959 like hide the iPads, you know. And so I went. 132 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:26.360 I went back there to let him know, like, hey, 133 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.199 I got to get on a zoom call. And my 134 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.680 son's just looking like kind of guilty. You know, he's 135 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:37.159 clearly put his iPad under the blanket and they're pretending 136 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.919 to read books together. And it's like, what have I done? 137 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.159 Have I just am my coaching my son that he 138 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:48.200 should lie? But I don't know, I felt like it 139 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.240 was important. I felt like it was a canon moment 140 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.600 for them, you know, just just get in one over 141 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:58.000 on dad. But yeah, I've probably you know, you know, 142 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:02.440 the butterfly effects, like I've probably created this is like 143 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:06.159 a trajectory of the timeline that I've just initiated and 144 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:10.720 now or you know, this cascade of dominoes leading to 145 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:14.200 a life of crime. You know, I just I just started. 146 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:17.480 Hopefully not. My goal is just for my son and 147 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.120 my daughter to be friends. So we'll see. I'll give 148 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.840 you an update in ten years. Hopefully you're still listening. 149 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.919 So anyway, email me God's I view book at gmail 150 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:29.799 dot com. Let me know, you know, am I doing 151 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.200 it all wrong? I should probably, I should probably admit, 152 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.559 because then there's like a lesson, right I should be like, Okay, listen, Son, 153 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:40.559 I actually knew you were on the iPad today, you know, 154 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.840 And I'm not mad at you from from keeping it 155 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:45.720 from I don't know. I'm not sure. Maybe I just 156 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:51.600 never say anything. Let me know what you think. Okay, huge, 157 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.279 Now we're doing a huge pivot. Did Jesus claim to 158 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.840 be God? What do you guys think? I don't know. 159 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:00.759 I don't really know who's listening to the show. I 160 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:05.720 would say most of the core one hundred are probably Christians, 161 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.200 but actually a pretty big chunk of the Core one 162 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:12.120 hundred are like agnostics. You know, they're open to stuff, 163 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:17.200 but they don't really know. And my sense is most Christians, 164 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:19.159 if you ask them, did Jesus claim to be God 165 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.320 would say yes, and listen to what I'm saying. Specifically, 166 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:28.360 I'm not saying is Jesus God, That's a different question. 167 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:36.000 I'm saying, did Jesus himself claim he was in the scriptures? 168 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:40.080 That's a different question, and it should be an easy 169 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:42.039 to answer question. But the truth is it really isn't. 170 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:45.159 And you might, if you are Christian, you might already 171 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.360 be thinking about certain passages that we will get to. 172 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.480 But I think even you would admit that it's it's 173 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.919 not direct, Like, you know, Jesus never says I am God, 174 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:01.039 bow down and worship me. Now, he alludes to that 175 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:03.480 are close to that. He alludes to a lot of 176 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.679 Jewish tradition. He does a lot of things that only 177 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:10.600 God does, like walks on water, which is a reference 178 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:17.639 to job, forgive sins, comes back from the dead, but 179 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:22.080 others technically did that too, right Lazarus under Jesus' power though, 180 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:25.200 So it's you know, and so I think there's lots 181 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:26.799 of reasons to believe that he is God. By the 182 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:28.559 question is did he claim to be? And so that's 183 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:29.879 what we're going to be taking on. This is a 184 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.320 pretty long interview. We're going to break it up into 185 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:36.679 several parts. This is Alex O'Connor. He's interviewing an author 186 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.320 of the book we'll learn his name in the book, 187 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:42.840 the name shortly and Alex and preparing for a debate. 188 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:46.720 And he was the atheist in the debate, arguing that 189 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.360 Jesus never claimed to be God, like any smart person 190 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.120 should do, but rarely does he read all the best 191 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.519 books against him, like what are the best cases against 192 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:02.480 my argument? And so this book he felt was the 193 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:06.840 very best book claiming that Jesus did claim to be God. 194 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.399 So he's now interviewing the author. So I don't know, 195 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:12.000 I think you got to respect that whenever you think 196 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:16.000 about the guy. And we'll get into it, but first 197 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:17.440 let me I kind of want to lay out the 198 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:23.639 spectrum of beliefs about Jesus. Now shifting gears to is 199 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:27.279 Jesus God? So the spectrum of beliefs would be just 200 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:33.440 on Jesus in general. Would be the most extreme, probably 201 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:39.519 smallest group believes that Jesus as a human being never 202 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.600 even existed. These would be called mythesists. This is like 203 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:49.440 very this is a very extreme position. Most New Testament 204 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:54.960 scholars are atheists, and most of them the vast majority 205 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:59.679 of them would not go that far. It just seems 206 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:02.679 like there is just too much, you know, for a 207 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:04.759 guy who never existed, There just seems to be too 208 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.159 much literature. You know. People will say things like there 209 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:11.840 are no extra biblical sources for Jesus. That's not true. 210 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.120 There are some, and there are some critical sources people 211 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:18.240 that don't like him, you know, the Babylonian tel Mood, 212 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:24.399 for example, there's very early graffiti in Rome mockinging people 213 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.919 who believed in Jesus. And of course there's the Bible. 214 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.879 You know, there's there's many books, and I don't think 215 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:34.679 you can, like even as an atheist, discredit the Bible 216 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:35.840 as a historical source. 217 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:36.600 You know. 218 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.360 Clearly, maybe there's parts of it that are intended to 219 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.360 be like poetic or mythical, but certainly the account of 220 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.519 jesus life is not one of those accounts. It's very 221 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:52.240 clearly meant to be biographical. And it seems very unlikely 222 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:56.039 that you would make this figure up, especially since there 223 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.399 are official government actions related to him, like his crucifixion. 224 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.720 It just seems like it's the story just want to 225 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:10.399 catch on if it were completely invented. Certainly not locally anyway. 226 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:13.600 So that's the most extreme group the group I guess, 227 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:17.440 you know, if we're starting, if we're saying the far left, 228 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.279 I don't mean politically, but you know, the far left 229 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.039 side of the spectrum is mythicism. In the far right 230 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:29.759 side is Jesus is God, is indistinguishable from God. The 231 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:33.200 next wrong, moving from left to right, would probably be 232 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:38.879 that Jesus was a historical figure. He was a real person. 233 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:44.039 He was a rabbi who had an earthly ministry, but 234 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.399 was very clearly not divine. So this would be the 235 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:52.279 eighth most atheists would feel this way. Now there's sort 236 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:54.799 of a version of that, maybe just slightly to the 237 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:59.120 right of that, which believes all of the same stuff, 238 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.039 but believes that Jesus was probably, you know, a blasphemer 239 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:09.799 and was executed by the Romans for starting trouble in 240 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:11.879 the Jewish community, And this would sort of be the 241 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:17.039 Jewish position. Now there is argument about this. This is 242 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:22.279 a very controversial thing because there are a lot of people, 243 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.879 I would assume Jewish people who would argue that the 244 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:32.519 Jews of Jesus's day never claimed that he was a blasphemer, 245 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:41.039 and that this is a later a later invention by 246 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:45.000 the Church to sort of like an anti Semitic invention. 247 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:50.320 But I will say the argument I find that's technically 248 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:54.440 usually not from Jewish people. It's more from atheists and 249 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:59.480 sort of anti Christian or anti Catholic in particular, people 250 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:04.000 who have sort of like a Dan Brown version understanding 251 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.399 of the Church, like the Roman Inquisition version of the 252 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:13.519 Catholic Church, who who I don't know, like to think that, 253 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:15.840 like a lot of the things in the Bible where 254 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:20.200 you know, like the Pharisees pick up stones to stone 255 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:24.840 Jesus for blasphemy, that these were like invented hundreds of 256 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:32.840 years later to make a divine claim. And I just 257 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.240 don't think the historical evidence supports that. You know, we 258 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:40.000 have copies of these manuscripts going back to maybe fifty 259 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:45.120 years after the Crucifixion, so it just seems unlikely. Now 260 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:51.720 that said, the Jewish Christian situation was an issue from 261 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.720 the very beginning. You have what are called the Judaizers 262 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.000 in the Bible, which my understanding is that these are Christians, 263 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.519 but they they are you know, Jewish ethnicity, like all 264 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.880 of the disciples who are still wanting to practice Jewish 265 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:13.279 customs like circumcision and things, and to honor certain aspects 266 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.160 of the rules around the Sabbath and that sort of thing. 267 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:21.200 And this is very much discouraged and in Paul's letters 268 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:24.839 and so yeah, so you know, right off the bat, 269 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:29.319 this is a sensitive issue anyway. So I'm just pointing 270 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.759 out that's like the next rung on the ladder, above that, 271 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.440 or don't. I don't mean to say above like better, 272 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.240 you know, so I'll say right of that would be 273 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:45.240 that Jewish is a divine figure, but he's divine in 274 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:49.240 the way like a prophet is divine. And in fact, 275 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.680 maybe that's what he is. He's a prophet. Maybe he's 276 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:56.799 a special prophet, but he is ultimately a prophet, but 277 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.799 he is not God. And so this would be the 278 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:03.880 Islamic interpretation that you know, he is to be honored, 279 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.000 he is a prophet, but that he was not crucified, 280 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.200 and he did not resurrect, he was taken directly into heaven. 281 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.799 And so yeah, again this is the Islamic tradition. Now 282 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.319 I think some people are surprised to hear that. Listen, 283 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.000 this is not to say also when I say, you know, 284 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.759 the Jewish tradition thinks this the Catholic tradition thinks this. 285 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.119 The Muslim tradition thinks this. I'm not talking about like 286 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:34.079 any random member of that group that you interview on 287 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:35.680 the street. Well, think that that's not what I'm saying. 288 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.200 I'm just saying it's at least it's, if not the 289 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.799 official teaching, it's one of the official teachings from that group. 290 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.640 So basically my understanding is kind of the majority Muslim 291 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:52.079 interpretation is that the Bible is, or at least was, 292 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.200 the authentic word of God, but that aspects of it 293 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.599 have been corrupted over time, particularly the crucifiit and the 294 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:05.920 and any like divine claims made by Jesus if they exist, 295 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:09.759 which I think they would say they don't exist. And 296 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.480 this is because they view God as is one and 297 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.039 is not a man, and not a and certainly not 298 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.200 able to be killed. So that would be the next 299 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.920 roung And then right of that you have like a 300 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:28.839 whole panacea of Christian and like Christian adjacent views, which is, 301 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.400 you know, Jesus either is God or he is the 302 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.559 Son of God or both, you know. And then really 303 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.960 I would say the most traditional Christian view being the Trinity, 304 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:48.839 that there are three eternal pre existing beings, the Father, 305 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.799 the Son, the Holy Spirit, and these are all different 306 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.039 aspects maybe of God, or I think what is typically 307 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.480 said is, you know, God is one has one nature, 308 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:01.720 but three persons, the Father, of the Son, and the 309 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.960 Holy Spirit. So that would sort of be the far 310 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.559 not the ft I almost said far right. I don't 311 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:09.359 mean that politically like this, This would be the other 312 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:15.400 end of the spectrum from mythicism. Who we're weighted in 313 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:17.839 treacherous waters. Okay, so we're going to jump into the 314 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.400 clip this is broken into. It looks like about nine 315 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:24.519 or ten main arguments. We'll probably just do one today, 316 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.880 and the first one is Mark two where Jesus forgives 317 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:33.440 since now this shows up in multiple gospels, so we 318 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:38.759 might also play the second argument, which is Matthew tells 319 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:43.079 the same story but slightly differently in a way that 320 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.960 Alex will argue undermines the idea that he claimed to 321 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.640 be God. So we'll probably just listen to those two clips. 322 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.599 It goes from about see thirteen minutes to it's about 323 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:58.279 twenty minutes, so yeah, we won't do more than that. 324 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:02.240 Here we go is the healing of the paralytic He 325 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.880 brought it up already, right where Jesus says in Mark 326 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:08.720 two to the paralyse man, my son, your sins are forgiven. 327 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.759 Right now, you can make the case, a reasonable case, 328 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:19.039 that Jesus is just taking a priestly prerogative upon himself, 329 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.440 because it is true that in the temple, Jewish priests 330 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:27.559 would bring sacrifices, they'd offer them to the God of Israel, 331 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:33.079 and they would sacrifice those in order a tone for 332 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.839 the sins of the people on their behalf. And so 333 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.359 you could make the case that that kind of divine passive, 334 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:46.440 your sense of forgiven, is just Jesus making or taking 335 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:48.759 a priestly prerogative as his own. 336 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:55.759 Right. Jesus doesn't say five of you, He just says passively, 337 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:58.640 your sins forgiven. 338 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:04.160 That's exactly right. So I do agree with you that 339 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:08.640 that's not an unreasonable interpretation of that passage. Now, I 340 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:14.160 don't think that does full justice to the passage. I 341 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.400 think more is going on than just to priestly prerogative. 342 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.039 I think Jesus is laying claim to a divine prerogative, 343 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:28.720 and I think the text itself supports that both because 344 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.599 even within a Jewish context, the priests would not declare 345 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:36.880 your sins forgiven? He would be the mediation of forgiveness. 346 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:42.079 But even more it is because of Jesus' response, because 347 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.119 when they respond by saying, who can forgive sins but 348 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:50.079 God alone? You'll notice that your response is not who 349 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:57.480 can forgive sins but priests alone? But they actually make 350 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:04.640 it exclusively divine. The Jewish interlocketers. And then Jesus responds 351 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.039 by saying, so that you may know that the son 352 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.519 of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, I 353 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:16.480 say to you rise. So I think the fuller context 354 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:21.400 of the passage makes that reasonable interpretation not the best 355 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.960 interpretation of the overall content. 356 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:28.240 So yeah, okay, So we have a situation where there's 357 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.960 a crowd around Jesus, a house that Jesus is in, 358 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.079 and there's there's a I don't know all the details, 359 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:42.079 but there's a man and his family or friends again 360 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.039 I don't know the details exactly want to get him 361 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:49.640 in to see Jesus because they know he's working miracles 362 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.519 and and and they have faith that he can't heal 363 00:23:53.920 --> 00:24:01.119 this paralyzed man. Sorry, I'm in the dog routine where 364 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:02.680 he wants to go in and out one hundred times 365 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.960 an episode. And so they can't get him in because 366 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.119 there's this crowd around the front of the house. But 367 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:11.079 they're able to this. It's kind of a weird story, 368 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.640 I'll give you that. But they managed to get sort 369 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.200 of like around the back of the house or get 370 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.599 on the roof of an adjacent house and sort of 371 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.960 get over to the roof of this home that Jesus 372 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:25.759 is in. It's weird because it's like such a weird story. 373 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.319 Almost not make it up this way, you know, like 374 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.599 why would you add this sort of strange detail that 375 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.599 they enter the home from the roof, you know, they 376 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:41.519 lower the paralyzed man into his midst in this house, 377 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:47.319 and they are and Jesus is pleased, right that they 378 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:50.279 have such faith that they would basically do anything to 379 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:56.079 get to him, and he forgives the paralyzed man sins, 380 00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.839 and he says this out loud. After he says that, 381 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:05.359 he hears the thoughts of the onlookers in the crowd. 382 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:10.000 And some of these onlookers are the Pharisees, you know, 383 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.680 one of the groups of Jews. You know, you have 384 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.240 the statuses of Pharisees in the scene, and the Pharisees 385 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.839 are a religious authority, and he hears their thoughts, and 386 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:25.079 their thoughts are sort of they're angry, you know, they're saying, wait, 387 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:29.400 this man is forgiving sins. Who can forgive sins? But 388 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:32.920 God alone? And Jesus says, you know, why are you 389 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.920 thinking this? So he reads their minds and so he says, 390 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.319 you know, a string of things that will rehash here 391 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.759 multiple times into the conversation, but you know, basically like, hey, 392 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:47.039 what's easier for giving sins or telling a man to 393 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.359 get up and walk who's paralyzed. And so he does, 394 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.279 he says, stand up and walk, and he does the 395 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:58.000 paralyzed man, and he says something like, so that you know, 396 00:25:58.119 --> 00:25:59.960 the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin 397 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:06.200 on earth, I will heal this man's ailment. And so 398 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:10.039 we've talked about this name before, the Son of Man. 399 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.839 This is a title. Son of Man can just mean human, 400 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:21.039 you know, Bene, I think it's ben a Adam is 401 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:24.160