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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime.

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Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder.

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Speaker 5: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined

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today by doctor Michael Bodden, one of the most pre

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eminent forensic pathologists in the true crime space. Doctor Biden,

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we are thrilled and honored to have you here. Thank

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you for joining us.

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Speaker 6: Great to be here.

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Speaker 4: Start by telling us.

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Speaker 5: About your extensive professional background. I know that's a tall order,

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but see if you can do it in just a

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couple of sentences for us.

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Speaker 6: Start out, I would be was a graduate of the

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City College of New York and NYU Medical School, did

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an internship residency program at Bellevue Hospital in New York City,

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first in internal medicine, then in pathology, and just by accident,

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because the New York City Medical Examiner's Office was located

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in the basement of Bellevue Hospital, I became interested in

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autopsies that were done every day in the basement at

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Bellevue and learned a great deal of information about people.

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It's an amazing thing what autopsies can tell you, and

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eventually changed from internal medicine to pathology. Began working first

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on a moonlighting basis for the Medical Examiner's office in

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New York City, going to scenes of death and doing

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autopsies on weekends and holidays, and became a full time

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medical examiner and worked there for twenty five years, doing

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various capacities, including that of Chief Medical Examiner in New York.

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Then after twenty five years, I switched to the New

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York State Police and was the chief forensic pathologist for

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the New York State Police, which had the death cases

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throughout these sixty two Counties of New York and recently

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retired and I'm doing a private forensic pathology and fascinated

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every time I do an autopsy. It's like a miracle

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to see how trillions of cells line up to give

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us hearts and lungs and nerves, how to cells know

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where they go. It's I think more each auto looking

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into the body is more fascinating than looking out to

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outer space and seeing a few suns that are going

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to explode or something like that. But it's the human

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body is each one of us as a miracle as

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far as the autopsy table goes, so.

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Speaker 5: That we've got our terminology rate. And I realized going

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into this that I don't have the terminology right. Can

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you explain the difference between a forensic pathologist, a coroner,

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and a medical examiner, because I can't tell the difference

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between the threat, So please help us out.

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Speaker 6: That's interesting because it's a confusing history. Way back in England,

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a coroner system was developed because even in the twelfth

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century when developed, when somebody died, there had to be

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some accounting to how the death occurred, especially in England,

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because if somebody committed suicide, the law was you're not

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allowed to commit suicide because then I lose a troup

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for an army, and all of that individual's property would

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be go over to the king. So the main thing

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was picking up suicide so they could confiscate that individuals remains.

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And in sixteen nineteen and from then on in the

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United States, in the early part at that time, we

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inherited that coroner system was called in England after coroner

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started out as crowner. It was a head officer of

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the crown. In fact, if one goes to Hamlet, when

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Hamlet comes upon the graveyard scene and asks how come

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they're burying using a church burial for somebody who drowned,

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and they say because the crowner. They still use a

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term in fifteen ninety nine and Hamlet has written as

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crowner and has determined that she didn't go to the water,

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but the water came to her. Therefore it's not suicide.

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And that's still how it works in our business, is

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that crowners. And the development from crowners in the nineteenth

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century late nineteenth century was somebody figured out in Maryland

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and first of New York that the person who should

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be able to determine cause of death should be a

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physician because they should know what the medical terms are.

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Medical examiners sprouted up in some jurisdictions where the person

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in charge of determining cause and manner of death is

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a physician. Some places say there has to be a

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forental physician who specializes in deaths, which is the pathologist.

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Presently that half the United States counties are coroner counties

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and heref are medical examiner counties. The difference is coroners,

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going back to our British roots, can be anyone of

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age now eighteen or eighteen or twenty one years ago

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who's a citizen and is elected. Coroners are elected and

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in most places need no experience except being a citizen.

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And that half the United States has run that way

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and half are medical examiners. Medical examiners are appointed by

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the county to at most medical examiners have to be

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physicians or medical professionals, and in some places like New

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York City, the person has to be a forensic pathologist,

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because a forensic pathologist is the one who is trained

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in unnatural death. Coroners, i said, are elected and the

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medical examiners appointed based on merit to be a medical

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examiner is a political appointment. A medical examiner is the

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person in charge. The old Quincy series on television, Quincy

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was the forensic pathologist and there was a lawyer who

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was who was the coroner in charge. So Quincy was

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a medical examiner and his boss was a coroner who

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was a lawyer. Even now, California is unique where most

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medical examiners are appointed by the coroner, who is a sheriff.

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And that's pretty much only mostly in California. That's the difference.

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There have been some In New York State, there's sixty

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two counties, of which about eighteen are medical examiners are

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in charge and the rest are elected coroners. One of

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the reasons I was asked to be in charge as

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a medical examiner for the state Police was that in

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many of the counties they work in, there are coroners

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who are elected who aren't trained in how to learn

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from the dead body that the forensic cologist has to.

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So they established a forensic Science division where I could

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then be active in all the counties. Had helped the

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coroners so because the state police were losing cases because

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of bad autopsies at that time. Now, as far as

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pathologists go, pathology is one of the specialties in medicine,

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and most pathologists are hospital pathologists who work in hospitals

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and run the laboratories and examine the autopsies as necessary

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and examine the biopsies that are taken to see if

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it's cancer or not cancer for example. And the pathologist

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doesn't really deal with patient with living people. They deal

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with other doctors who are living excuse me, but not patients,

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So the hospital pathologist deals with other physicians. I always

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liked when I worked at part time in the medical

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examiner's office to patient, the contact with the family members

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and of the people that were being examined autopsies, or

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when I went to the scene. The scenes are death,

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the autopsy start at the scene of death. That's where

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we learn how long the person has been dead. We

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will find out if they have any pre existing illnesses,

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of what medicines they are on, and how long they

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been dead, and whether or not an autopsy should be done.

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And that's by talking to the family members and getting

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more information. That's how medical examiners and corners differ.

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Speaker 2: Wow, without trying to be too pointed about it. Doctor Boden.

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It sounds like in a lot of places around the

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United States, people that don't sound terribly qualified are acting

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as coroners. They're not doctors, they're not trained medical examiners,

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and yet they're supposed to determine how a particular person died.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and that is that is a deficiency. We're still

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working in half the counties in the United States with

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a system that was established from the eighteen hundreds of

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seventeen hundreds, when the United States was first developed. It

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sounds very anachronistic. From time to time there was an

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attempt made to change coroner systems to medical examining systems.

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I was involved with that once in New York State

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when I was in the New York City Medical Examiner's office.

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There was a movement to change all the sixty two

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counties in the New York State to medical examiner counties

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and eliminate all of the coroner counties where many of

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them are truck drivers and the two of the most

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in common are funeral directors. They're the ones that make

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up most of the biggest coroner system gathering and they're

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usually bright people or no medical knowledge, but they know

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how to deal with people. They know how to deal

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with the families. And when there was a bill put

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up in the New York State legislature to change the

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medical examiners state medical examiner system, thousands of coroner supporters

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from the counties got buses to go to Albany to

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protest because one of the things about electing being elected

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a coroner is you have a base of people who

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are friends to you, right because and if the coroner

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acts properly, some doctors are not very good with people,

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and that could be upsetting to people. The funeral directors

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know very train and they're very good in relating to

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peoples and making them feel better at a time of grief.

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And that was demonstrated to me when with the failed

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attempt to change things in New York State. So I

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think that's they're going to be with us. There are

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courses for coroners, and most coroners, many coroners, not all,

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will work out a relationship with a nearby for ensy

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topologists to do autopsies for which they pay them a

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certain amount of fee for each per case a fee.

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Speaker 4: There is a whole.

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Speaker 5: Hidden history to this that I had no idea about.

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Speaker 6: How interesting that when one goes into the accuracy at

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what death certificate it's we you know, a lot of

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mistakes made about death certificates. Occasionally they come out. Usually

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they come out when somebody prominent dies, and that's because

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there's an interest in them. Most people who die, the

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cause of death is often just a guess. And then

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this goes into Bible statistics, so it becomes an issue

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as to how common certain diseases are and how we

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miss certain things. And that's what happens really with the

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pleat deaths and police custody, is that there's a great

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deal of underreporting of deaths and police encounters. One of

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the reasons I wrote this book.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so let's go ahead and jump into that. So

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you've written a new book called American Autopsy. It's really fascinating.

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There's a whole array of issues that came up in

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the book that I had never really taken into consideration before,

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but I really enjoyed reading it. Tell us about the

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premise of the book and then why you felt it

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was so imperative to write this book.

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Speaker 6: Now, I've been concerned since I started out as a

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medical examiner about the unevenness as in death for determinations country,

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partly because of the lack of training and many people,

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especially coroners, in making decisions. But it became more apparent

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to me that when I was a medical as a

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medical examiners, that we were especially supposed to be especially

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careful in determining cause of death. And people die in

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police encounters. And this became very apparent when I became

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chief medical examiner. About a month or two after I

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became chief medical examiner, there was a citizen named Martha Miller,

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a black citizen that the mayor today Mayor Adams, referred

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to in the celebration of his life fifty years death

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or so that he was the first I can't breathe

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person I was a chief medical examiner. Arthur Miller was

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a businessman in Brooklyn, very friendly with police, good in

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the community. Comes home one day and sees a crowd

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around his brother and police. Apparently the police wanted to

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give him a summons for improperly getting rid of garbage,

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and they were around him. He came up and he

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put his arms up to tell the community to get

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back and see how he could stop the emotion. But

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one of the police officers saw that he had a

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gun on It was a legal gun that he was

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with a permit to take because he, as a businessman,

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had carried a lot of money around from time to time,

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so it was legal. But the police didn't know that,

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and they immediately jumped on him, got him down on

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the ground. What's her to say, I can't breathe that's

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why Mayor Adams refers back to him in that force,

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in that thing, and gets in the police car, goes

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to the precinct. By the time he gets to the precinct,

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he's dead. The autopsy is done by the Brooklyn Medical

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Examiner because that's where its death here. I was a

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chief called up and asked what the findings were, and

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he said, it looks like he died of psychosis with exhaustion.

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I said, what do you mean. I said, that's what

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we always said when people die and they're excited and

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they die while being subdued by police, that somehow the

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adrenal glands up putting out too much adrenaline. It's the

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fault of the person who dies, not the throat of

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the police. And I said, and he damaged his neck. Yeah,

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there's a fracture in the Adams Apple little hemorrhages, patika

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in the eyes. It wasn't that typical of neck compression

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and he said, yes, but we don't put that down.

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I said, we're going to put it down now, and

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that is mind just starting out, and he put down

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cause of death was compression of neck at that time,

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much like Floyd's in Floyd's neck and that was a

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home side because death and another I got a call

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from the mayor, extremely upset Mayor Kutch that he was

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getting a hassle from police and saying, now, we're not

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supposed to do that. I said, it's truth is the truth.

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And that was what led to my being demoted from

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chief the deputy chief medical examiner after about a year

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that was there into the office. Is because back in

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nineteen seventy nine, this was this is saying that the

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police caused the death, and this is around the country

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the same way. There's a lot of pushback for medical

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examiners to say that the police caused the death. And

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that got me thinking a lot beginning there about how

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the autopsy situation can lead to misdiagnosis. And as soon

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as the medical examiner says that it's not a homicide,

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that it's psychosis with exhaustion or excited delirium, which then

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came after that, no more investigation. And when I started

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the book out, when I got a call from the

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family of George Floyd that they wanted me to do

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a second autopsy because the first autopsy, the medical examiner

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and the disc attorney had come out right after the

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first this about three or four days after he died,

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came out and said that the police restraint had nothing

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to do with George Floyd's death. And I had seen

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the same photographs that a railsord with the taken by

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a fifteen year old girl with the officer's knee pressing

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on the neck, his saying I can't breathe, I can't

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breathe right and dying. And it reminded me so much

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of Arthur Miller that this has been going on from

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nineteen seventy nine to twenty twenty, that I decided that

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this I should write something about it and how to

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prevent it. That it's a structural It isn't a bad apple.

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It's a structural thing.

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Speaker 2: What kind of conversation, if any goes on behind the scenes,

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Doctor Boden, when you've got mayors and police chiefs and

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the heads of police unions and other people. The pressure

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on the medical professionals to push their analysis in a

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direction that exonerates the police has to be tremendous. What's

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said behind the scenes.

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Speaker 6: What's behind the scenes is two things. One is that

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when we grow up as medical examiners, we are in

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everyday contact with the police. Because the medical examiner in

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training and the medical examiner throughout life deals every day

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with police would come down to identify decedents and to

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give information, we develop I think a bias toward our friends.

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And that when death occurs, most even the good forensic pathologists,

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and there aren't that many around, they're only about that's

295
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a four hundred or five hundred full time forensic pathologists

296
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in the whole country. Medical examiners see the police usually

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as good guys, and that they didn't go they didn't

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wake up in the morning wanting to kill somebody. And

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that when the people die in the police encounters by

300
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asphyxia during the restraint process. By pressing on the back

301
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trying to handcuff somebody from behind causes the domin organs

302
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to push up into the chest and prevents the diaphragms

303
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from going up and down so that we can't breathe.

304
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And that's why Arthur Miller and so many others have said,

305
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I can't breathe. I can't breathe because the diaphragm won't

306
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go down in order to inhale, a diaphragm has to

307
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go down. And you and I, as we're sitting here,

308
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our diaphragms are going up and down about eighteen times

309
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in a minute. We have nothing to do with it.

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The small thin muscle, it gets no respect. It's not

311
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like the biceps or triceps is what keeps us alive

312
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from birth to death. That keeps our lungs going in

313
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and out and inhaling and exhaling air. When that stopped

314
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most often by police officers are pressing on the back

315
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to get the wrists together to put on a handcuff

316
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somebody who's resisting. The person can't breathe and dies and

317
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leaves no marks on the body. See there's no marks

318
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in the body, like with George Floyd when the medical

319
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examiner and prosecutor said that there's nothing at the autopsy

320
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to show that he died because of the police restraint.

321
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Doctors knew that was nonsense, because suffocation death back pressure

322
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leaves no marks on the body. What did happen was

323
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that the photograph, the one photograph that the fifteen year

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old girl got the pullet serprize for rightfully, that showed

325
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the knee on Floyd's neck, and while he was saying

326
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I can't breathe, I can't breathe showed what everybody else

327
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knew that this police that killed him it wasn't due

328
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to the restraint. And the problem comes up is that

329
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various course of death pulled under put on the death

330
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certificate that washes over that cause of death, things like

331
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excited delirium, things like undetermined things of blaming low levels

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of drugs or heart disease that would not be a

333
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cause of death. High the fact that excessive force was used,

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and that's what's leading to increasing division as exposed by

335
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the George Floyd incident.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

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after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

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mindover Murder.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, nobody is going to put positional asphyxia on a

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death certificate as opposed to some other thing where they

341
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can say, oh, it was what did you call it psychotic.

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Speaker 6: Delirium, psychosis, with psychosis, with exhaustion, with the term now

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it's excited delirium, excited to all of that says that

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it's not the fault to the police officer. That goes

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down to natural deaths, end of case. And I think

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George Floyd expose how this the diagnosis by the medical

347
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examiner can immediately halt any type of investigation because the

348
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medical examiner says that death is not homicide, it's accident

349
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or suicide or natural. That ends the police investigation. And

350
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that results in the families that have been very upset

351
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over the years, and also the great undercounting of deaths

352
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the Washington Post has because there's no governmental reporting of

353
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deaths caused by police. And the problem is in part

354
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demonstrated by the Washington Post by looking every day at

355
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all a newspaper reports or have found over the past

356
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,079
few years that there about one thousand deaths a year

357
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in this country that are caused by police shootings. Mostly

358
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State of Washington studied death certificates the university and found

359
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that half of all deaths involving police are not mentioned

360
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on the death certificate in any way. It's usually such

361
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as my excited delirium and things like that, and so

362
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at least two thousand deaths a year from police activity,

363
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and the only way to really get a handle on

364
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it and to try and develop strategies to prevent it

365
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is by having a national register of all these deaths.

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This was tried, I think back around twenty fourteen, when

367
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there was some concern about police and deaths, A lowist

368
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passed the federal law to report all deaths voluntarily volunt

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by police departments by and it turned out just in December,

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the IGO, the government agency that looks into these things,

371
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did a study and showed that very few counties jurisdictions

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reported any deaths because it was voluntary. That has to

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be made mandatory. And then to be able to get

374
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a handle on where the deaths occur and how they

375
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can be prevented. Part of it and one of the

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things that occurred to me in my years it's not

377
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a rotten apple thing, it's a system systemic thing. I'd

378
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done an autopsy investigated death ten years before George Floyd

379
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:35,839
in the same police precinct in Minneapolis, a black male

380
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who had some mental impairment but was shooting basketballs by

381
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himself and YMCA that he belonged to. When somebody complained

382
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that he didn't like him being there, police came, had

383
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done anything wrong, subdued him, caused his death. It was

384
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on a video camera. I came down to testify that

385
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the same medical examiner agreed. You both agreed that he

386
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:04,440
eye of police chess compression. As a result of the

387
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,319
settlement after that case, they had to do a serious

388
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education of all the Minneapolis police and every month, every

389
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:16,400
morning have things written to them about how compression of

390
00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:20,200
prevention of breathing can cause death. That was the same

391
00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:25,839
precinct as George Floyd was killed, where not only did

392
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,400
the Chabez do put his knee on the neck, but

393
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,839
the other three officers protected were there and wouldn't let

394
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any of the bystanders help or obey what they said.

395
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You're killing him. You're killing him caught on the video.

396
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,680
It's hard to just educate that. There has to be

397
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,920
certain changes, like police getting rid of qualified immunity, which

398
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,759
protects police from action special interpretations of the law.

399
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Speaker 5: It does sound like there needs to be a pretty

400
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,720
significant amount of changes made, not only to here's how

401
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:05,920
we treat police officers like you mentioned qualified immunity, but

402
00:26:06,039 --> 00:26:08,599
also just educating them on you can't put somebody in

403
00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:11,039
at your call. You can't put your knee into somebody's

404
00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:14,920
back and cut off their breathing. What would you say

405
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,000
the most important changes are that need to be made

406
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,599
to help police understand you cannot do this to a person.

407
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 6: You will kill them. I think that they know what

408
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:29,359
it's said, but they don't believe. They think that they

409
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,839
have the fool'st impression that the black people have gathered

410
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,960
superhuman strength and they're going to hurt the police officers,

411
00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:40,759
and that's why they use massive force. Remember all the

412
00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:45,359
deaths that curring police custody, usually it had two or

413
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,680
three police officers around putting on the handcuffs, and they're

414
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,759
being punished for not immediately obeying putting hands behind the

415
00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:57,240
back to be handcuffed. They're not a threat to anybody.

416
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,440
A couple important things. One is a high perce of

417
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:05,799
such encounters and deaths involve people on acute mental crisis.

418
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,839
Cute mental crisis because they haven't taken their medicine for

419
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:16,359
schizophrenia and they're acting bizarre, or they're hiring a drug

420
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:20,519
methamphetamine or something they're not a danger to something. They're

421
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:25,480
running around nude in the street, sometimes no weapon on them,

422
00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:28,960
and they or they're driving a car that gets a

423
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,640
minor violation, which is and when the police encountered them,

424
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,599
instead of treating them gently, they get angry at them

425
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,920
because they didn't obey them. They're not obeying. Starts with

426
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,400
put your hands behind your back, and if you don't

427
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,160
do that, that you're now committed a criminal act. See

428
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,160
so even though you're called for it. So one of

429
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,279
the things that should happen. And some jurisdictions a few

430
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,599
getting mental health workers to go out with police on

431
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,960
calls for emotion disturbed people. Police often know when they're

432
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,759
getting called for an EDP an emotionally disturbed person because

433
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:12,240
their infraction is running around nude or something. They're not

434
00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:15,119
holding up a bank or something. They're just and they're

435
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,359
not a danger to anybody. But police are not given

436
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,039
time to talk to people. They come. If they take

437
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,920
action against somebody, they have to put handcuffs on them

438
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,480
and then they bring them to the precinct or something.

439
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,240
If a person doesn't like handcuffs. As often the mentally

440
00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:39,000
impaired people. The cute episodes they don't even understand what

441
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:41,160
the police are telling them, and they belong in a

442
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,799
hospital or not a police precinct, and they get even

443
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,920
more agitated when they see when they're ask about the handcuffing.

444
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:54,720
So there are ways to make certain rules. I think.

445
00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:59,000
Also what could happen is when the medical zamplies do

446
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,119
say that they died because of the compression some kind

447
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,319
of impairment. Usually, in my experience, when it goes to

448
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:13,640
they are they're investigated by internally. Internal investigations usually find

449
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,039
that they acted at p any proper procedure. It's unfortunate

450
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,079
that it happened, but that's the end of it. Or

451
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,079
if they go through a grand jury, the grand jury

452
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:28,000
doesn't bring down any indictment, and that's because, as they say,

453
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,240
a disc attorney can indict a ham sandwich, and it

454
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,599
also cannot indict a serial killer. The interesting thing to

455
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:43,839
remember bry Own lady in Kentucky, Briona tel who was

456
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,599
shot perfectly innocent, and when it's put in the grand jury,

457
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,559
they didn't come down with an indictment. And finally one

458
00:29:50,599 --> 00:29:55,039
of the grand jurors broke their oath and said we

459
00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,079
didn't do any because the disc attorney just didn't ask

460
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,359
us to do anything about the indicting. The grand jury

461
00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:05,519
in this in this country is secret because that's the

462
00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:08,599
way it used to be in seventeen seventy six when

463
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,039
we established the court the British systems in nineteen thirties,

464
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Britain got rid of the secret grand jury. Anything that

465
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,079
goes to the criminal justice investigation has to be made public.

466
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,240
Briona Taylor still to this day nobody's I think somebody

467
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:29,400
with one of the officers Risks was slapped because he

468
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,359
one of the bullets went into the next apartment, right,

469
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,079
but not because it was killed, and that there's no need.

470
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,640
The grand jury itself is a place where deaths in

471
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,880
police custody disappear, right. So that's if the police that

472
00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:49,200
know that they can be held responsible, if the prosecutor

473
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:55,319
knows that, if there's a natural database where cases are reviewed,

474
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,599
somebody looking over their shoulder, that'll go a long way

475
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,480
to diminishing outrageous behavior.

476
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: Do you think things can be changed for the better? Certainly.

477
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,559
We've seen a lot of cases in the last couple

478
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,079
of years where people have died at the hands of

479
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,640
police in a way that looks successive as we discussed

480
00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:20,640
George Floyd, Michael Brown, other people saying I can't breathe

481
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,960
and they're being restrained by three, four or five officers.

482
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,839
Can we make the systemic changes that we need to.

483
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 6: I think there's been slow progress. Kings aren't as bad

484
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,759
this criminal justice system from a racial point of view

485
00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:40,680
as they were around the time of the Civil War.

486
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,160
We've gradually made some back and forth to progress, and

487
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,680
I think there can be absolutely an improvement in police

488
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:58,240
obeying proper directions and proper orders. If they knew there

489
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,960
was somebody looking to each case. That would be a

490
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:05,599
national database would be able to look into each case

491
00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:11,720
as appropriate and take action whatever is decided if they

492
00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:16,119
find that the someplace or some person that's repeatedly doing things,

493
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,559
or if there has to be some kind of punishment

494
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,319
for improper actions. The problem with the police unions is

495
00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:28,640
that a lot of good things they do, but there's

496
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,319
a lot of things that they do that to protect

497
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,680
the membership, and unfortunately some members take advantage of that.

498
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 5: As the English teacher in the room, I do have

499
00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:44,839
to ask what is your writing process like? Because you

500
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,799
have such a wide range of expertise and you've had

501
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:52,720
such a storied career, How in the world do you

502
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,799
figure out what you're going to put in one book?

503
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,400
There is so much to American autopsy the world. Do

504
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,640
you go about your writing process part of it.

505
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,799
Speaker 6: I've tried a few books before, but in it to

506
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:10,640
get to show how a medical examiner develops and the normal,

507
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,400
usual kind of cases. But with George Floyd, it brought

508
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:20,680
me down to concentrate on deaths during police encounters and

509
00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:26,400
the failures not only of police and prosecutors, which have

510
00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:30,880
been discussed in New York Times editorials, but also the

511
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:37,079
failures of my business. Among medical examiners, there's a reluctance

512
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,200
to say that death is caused by police activity because

513
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,279
they know that their buddies and their friends who they

514
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:47,000
meet every day and they see every day, are a

515
00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:53,160
normal work can get punished. And I think that that

516
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:57,880
this kind of made me focused on deaths where medical

517
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,559
examiners are shown to be part of the problem, and

518
00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:05,359
that the medical examiners perhaps have to be separated from police.

519
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,199
We have to be able to be equally available, for example,

520
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,480
to the police, to the prosecutor, as to the disrict attorney.

521
00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:17,639
Medical examiners won't the defense attorneys won't talk to defense

522
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,559
attorneys for example, whereas we're always talking to the district attorney.

523
00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:26,800
We have to be independent. Science is independent of guilt

524
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,760
or innocence friendships. If if death shows that a friend

525
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,320
killed somebody, we got to say that. If it shows

526
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,119
that a bad guy was innotant in a certain thing,

527
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,960
it doesn't show innocent but didn't do harm as charged,

528
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,079
we have to say that. And we have to be

529
00:34:46,559 --> 00:34:50,440
guided by science and not by friendship. And the point

530
00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:53,920
is we grow up with being friends with police and

531
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,199
disc attorneys that we go in New York City. When

532
00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:59,440
I was in New York City, we would go three

533
00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:02,679
or four afternoons a week there were two thousand homicides

534
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,440
a year in those days, to the different boroughs to

535
00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:09,880
give grand jury testimony, to explain to the disc attorneys

536
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,679
what the autopsy means. The autopsy is not self explanatory.

537
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,800
There are all kinds of things, just like a legal document

538
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,360
is not necessarily clear to me as a non lawyer.

539
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,760
And I think that one of the things that the

540
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,480
defense attorneys, especially was that's involving the police are afraid

541
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:32,320
to consult with the medical examiners because they know from

542
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,920
experience that the medical examiners might tell the disc attorney

543
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,880
what our theories of the case are. Kind of thing

544
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,000
so that there's a sharp division between prosecutors and disc

545
00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:49,719
attorney and defense attorneys in an investigating case. Instead of

546
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,880
being cooperative with everybody is looking for what justice science says.

547
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 5: We just learned via email yesterday from crime Con that

548
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,280
you're going to be attending crime Con. Very excited about that.

549
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,199
But in addition to crime Con, what is next for

550
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,000
you in terms of projects.

551
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 6: I'm largely I've been teaching, some teaching and lecturing, but

552
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,079
largely writing. And part of my writing actually is professional writing,

553
00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:19,320
that is, to review an or doing private work, do

554
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:25,079
private work reviewing deaths and increasing number of deaths coming

555
00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:30,119
to my attention during police activity. And to be able

556
00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:35,199
to figure out on a case by case basis what

557
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,639
the prow the facts are in a matter, to be

558
00:36:39,679 --> 00:36:44,119
able to testify to a jury, which I tried to do.

559
00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:47,800
It doesn't matter which side calls me. I'm going to

560
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,840
say the same thing and that's what it should be.

561
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,119
It's hard to do that sometimes, but there's no individual project,

562
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,719
Unlike I think most of my classmates from medical school

563
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:05,679
now retiring in Florida to avoid the taxes, but playing golf.

564
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,440
I never understood golf as and I like what I'm doing,

565
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:13,840
So that's why, and the miracle of how the body functions.

566
00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:18,119
Speaker 2: We're so glad that you're still at it and still

567
00:37:18,199 --> 00:37:24,400
advocating for victims of violent crime and for calling it

568
00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:27,920
the way you see it and the science tells you

569
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:28,639
to see it.

570
00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 6: Thank you, And it's a fascinating profession and it needs

571
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,119
a lot more forensic pathologies. There aren't enough for forensic

572
00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:42,199
pathologists because we used People don't want to go into

573
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,800
a testifying court and have some guy criticize you. One

574
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,159
side's going to love you, one side's going to criticize you.

575
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,280
Doctors are used to being criticized and saying you mean

576
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,559
to say that that's not true, that the bullet didn't

577
00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:01,760
go that way and the way the police say it

578
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:08,920
went the way my client says, and that creates hostilities,

579
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,280
but we get thick skin.

580
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 5: The book is American Autopsy One Medical Examiner, is decades

581
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,519
long fight for racial justice and a broken legal system

582
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:22,559
that is available now at all of your local book retailers,

583
00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:25,880
and we do encourage you to shop independent bookstores whenever possible.

584
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 6: Thank you. You guys are easy to talk to. This wonderful.

585
00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,000
Did it go okay to that maybe I deviated too

586
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:35,320
much from the question.

587
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,559
Speaker 5: No, not at all. This was great, and I just

588
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:39,519
wanted to say, when I was reading it the other day,

589
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,440
your chapter about the Attica prison riots was interesting. Like

590
00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:46,360
my job was on the floor. I had no idea

591
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,800
about any of what you've written about the Attica prison riot.

592
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,000
It was so cool to read.

593
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:55,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that was what at that time. With that time,

594
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,800
I started out initially in college wanting to get I liked.

595
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:02,880
I was on the school editor of the school newspaper,

596
00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:08,119
and I wanted to be a journalist. To going to journalists,

597
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,000
my mother wouldn't let me. She wanted me to be

598
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,239
a doctor. And at that time there were fifteen daily

599
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,960
newspapers in New York City the five boroughs, so they

600
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,880
were plenty of jobs for journalists. One are the things

601
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:22,679
that blew my mind was when we went to Attica

602
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,760
and saw the prisoners. The New York Times, on page

603
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:32,920
one leads story said that and eight guards were next

604
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,519
work cut by the hostages by the inmates, and I

605
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,000
could see when that was wrong. They were all shot

606
00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:44,559
by friendly fire. Wow out in the New York Times

607
00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:49,119
get this wrong? And that has always been in my mind.

608
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 4: It was I've read that.

609
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 5: I was like, oh my god, that is crazy, Like

610
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,360
it's this has been really interesting. It's like, here's American

611
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,159
history from the point of view that it should be

612
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:02,840
read from, which I really enjoyed. So I'm going to

613
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,559
bring this with me to Crime con and I hope

614
00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:05,960
you'll autograph it for me, sir.

615
00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:09,039
Speaker 6: Oh, I would be too, I would be honored to

616
00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:12,480
do that. Great, now that I know what you guys

617
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,000
look like, we'll track you down wearing those things around

618
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:17,960
your ears or.

619
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: No, but we will have lanyards with our names on them,

620
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:24,519
and no, we will make a point of seeking you out.

621
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:26,760
It's so wonderful to talk with you.

622
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,639
Speaker 6: Do you you you're in Connecticut.

623
00:40:29,039 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: I'm in Connecticut, and then Christen's in Virginia.

624
00:40:32,119 --> 00:40:35,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, and yeah, because are you working Connecticut?

625
00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in beautiful Norfolk, Connecticut, in the northwest corner,

626
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,760
about two hours and fifteen minutes north of New York City.

627
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 6: That can be beautiful. I have a lot to do

628
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:45,639
with Henry Lee.

629
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, we.

630
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,079
Speaker 6: For a while. Yeah, he's still going strong.

631
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: He really amazing. We've enjoyed him immensely.

632
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 5: We actually were able to have dinner with him at

633
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,039
Savannah CRIMEX this past year. Like of all the tables

634
00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:03,880
in the room, he just sat down with us and

635
00:41:04,039 --> 00:41:06,000
was like, would you like to talk about forensics and

636
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,559
we were like yeah, yeah.

637
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 6: Was his wife with him, Angela, She just wrote a book.

638
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:22,519
She wrote a book at someplace that was interesting and

639
00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:27,159
any about the deaths in Croatia. In fact, I got

640
00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:29,599
the book in my They have a picture on the cover.

641
00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:33,280
On the cover of it, I wish and I'm on

642
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,800
that pigure Henry Lee doing a dig or something and

643
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,880
a couple of people next to him, and it was

644
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,440
a photo taken when we were in Croatia when they

645
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,639
were digging up bodies of people who were improperly buried there.

646
00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:49,639
And I have to read it then, I guess, okay,

647
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,000
so we'll we'll look forward to seeing you in a

648
00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:56,039
couple of months at crime Come. Yeah, I really do,

649
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,119
and thank you and the all best and maybe we

650
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:02,960
can have a bite together. It sounds great, okay. Nine,

651
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:04,599
I have to figure out how to turn the sword.

652
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: This would be a.

653
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 5: Big red button that's going to do it for this

654
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,159
episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening.

655
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:12,760
We'll see you next time.

656
00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

657
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,199
Another Dog Productions.

658
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,119
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

659
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

660
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:36,559
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

661
00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:41,159
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with cral Space Media.

662
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

663
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

664
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,719
Murders on Facebook.

665
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

666
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,119
Bill Thomas five six.

667
00:42:54,559 --> 00:42:57,679
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.

668
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 5: H