WEBVTT 1 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:21.480 Hello, and welcome to Western Sieve. In today's Bonus Interview, 2 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:24.120 I'm sitting down with Attorney Edward Cohen, and we're going 3 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:25.760 to talk about some issues that I think are things 4 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:28.920 that everybody should be invested in. We're going to talk 5 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:31.760 about the efficacy of plea bargaining and whether or not 6 00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:35.399 it's fair or joust or maybe it's just more efficient, 7 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.000 which is important. Don't get me wrong, I think that 8 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:41.280 it is. We're also going to talk about the value 9 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.600 of the Fifth and then the Fourth Amendments, your right 10 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.359 against self incrimination, and your right to be free from 11 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:50.479 unlawful searches and seizures. 12 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:52.039 All these things are important, and all of them are. 13 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:55.240 Kind of in the political zeitgeist as it were right now. 14 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.320 Then this is a little bit of a different interview. 15 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:02.000 Mister Attorney Cohen, excuse me, is not coming here to 16 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:04.680 sell you anything. He's just coming to share some of 17 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:07.879 his expertise. And since this is an area that I'm 18 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.000 kind of familiar with because of past experience as well, 19 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:13.359 you know, I thought it would be interesting to hear 20 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:16.560 him out, and so I hope you enjoyed the interview. 21 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:19.879 I think it's an episode where you'll learn something and 22 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.680 hopefully come away with some important tidbits of advice should 23 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.079 you ever find yourself in an unfortunate situation, and I 24 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:28.719 truly hope that you don't, or maybe that you know 25 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:29.599 someone that does. 26 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:30.040 So. 27 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:32.799 Without further ado, after these quick messages, here is an 28 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:35.280 interview with Attorney Edward Cohan, and we're going to talk 29 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.120 about a lot of things. 30 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:47.159 All right, welcome back. 31 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.799 So, as I mentioned in the introduction, we're doing something 32 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:52.079 a little bit different today. You know, we're going to 33 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:54.920 do some more contemporary stuff, but I mean we might 34 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:56.879 get into the history of some of these things as well. 35 00:01:57.159 --> 00:01:59.640 So I am sitting down, as we mentioned in talking 36 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:01.480 to a Atorney Edward Cone, and we're going to be 37 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:03.519 talking about a bunch of different things today. But I 38 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.680 think that these are interesting subjects that I think everybody 39 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.520 deserves the right to know about. And certainly if you've 40 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.039 ever been touched by the justice system, you know, I'm 41 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.360 very fond of telling kids that the the of the 42 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.520 three branches that we're involved in, you are more likely 43 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:22.120 to be touched by the judicial system than the other two. Directly, 44 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:24.560 that is more most likely than going to. 45 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:25.000 Be the case. 46 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:28.919 And I think We're going to start today by discussing 47 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.199 plea bargaining, and everybody probably has a rudimentary understanding of 48 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:37.000 what that is. But I think what I'm going to 49 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:40.639 start with, Attorney Cone, is by asking you what is 50 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:42.759 plea bar Let's define it for the audience for those 51 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:46.599 who aren't aware, and give me your sort of first opinions, 52 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:48.080 and then I think we'll go back and forth and 53 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:50.039 debate this a little bit. Is it's kind of in 54 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:51.159 my wheelhouse as well? 55 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:55.960 Okay, yeah, so I think so. Plea bargaining is generally 56 00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:00.439 where a person's charged with a crime and this states 57 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:04.520 or or the government uh offers them some sort of 58 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:11.919 uh non trial resolution which is negotiated usually between a 59 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:16.919 defense counsel and the prosecutor and the case and the 60 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:22.159 goal is to try to keep you know, the the 61 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:27.039 courts flowing the and not getting bogged down on cases 62 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:31.120 that should not be litigated. And often it's good for 63 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:35.800 the defendant, certainly, especially in a case where they're guilty. 64 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:42.199 They could uh get an offer that they maybe not 65 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:47.439 maybe we're not get otherwise, and and perhaps maybe even 66 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.879 doing probation or some sort of depending on the crime. 67 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:55.280 Of course, you know, how serious the crime is, avoid 68 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:58.159 doing some jail time, things of that nature. And usually 69 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:01.520 it's pretty ef I would say, you know, eighty percent 70 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.919 of the time it's going to work out well usually 71 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:08.879 for both sides to resolve the case. And then, of 72 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.159 course there's the twenty percent of the time where it's 73 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.800 not where a person's going to feel like they're kind 74 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.839 of forced into settling the case, where they don't feel 75 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.000 good about pleading guilty to something, or they think that 76 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:25.040 they have a good case to go to trial, and 77 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.959 you know, sometimes they weigh those things and a person 78 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.439 can end up pleading guilty to something that they didn't 79 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:37.120 do to avoid going to trial and losing and going 80 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:42.160 to prison. So those are the downsides of it. Most 81 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:43.399 of the time it works out pretty well. 82 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:45.240 Yeah, it's interesting, you know. 83 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.360 So first of all, what I want the audience, I 84 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:50.959 want you to also understand about plea bargaining is, let's 85 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:53.160 say you reach an agreement with the states or the 86 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:57.759 federal government for that matter. What every client needs to understand, 87 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.639 the defendant needs to understand is well, that's not an 88 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:04.639 ironclad thing, because it is in every jurisdiction I've ever 89 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:04.959 been in. 90 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:06.319 Ultimately up to. 91 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:10.160 The judge to decide what is the fairest and most 92 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.480 correct response in the matter, and we can kind of 93 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.920 have a I guess a little bit of a philosophical 94 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.079 debate about some of that if we want to, and 95 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:22.600 why don't we just we'll start there for a moment 96 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:25.800 and talk about, you know, is there value in plea 97 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:30.040 bargaining when the party that's going to be executing the sentence, 98 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:31.839 which is the judge, is the person that's going to 99 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.079 be handing it down, isn't privy to it until they're 100 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:36.360 told what it is in court? 101 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:38.560 You know, Should a. 102 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:43.319 Client be allowed to rescind a guilty plea if the 103 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.600 judge is not going to go along with the plea agreement? 104 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.519 I mean, that's I think that's a reasonable debate. What 105 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:51.120 do you think about that? And I give you my 106 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:52.120 thoughts in a moment too. 107 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:55.720 Yeah, I mean, I absolutely think that a defender should 108 00:05:55.720 --> 00:06:00.639 be allowed to withdraw their decision to plead get if 109 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:03.000 the judge is not going to go along with what 110 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:07.120 was agreed to. I think that that, uh, that should 111 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:11.399 be a you know, a nationwide rule that you know, 112 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:13.720 you should be able to get out of it if 113 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:16.720 the judge says, hey, that this is not kosher. I 114 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.600 don't think this is a good result. Maybe they don't 115 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:24.160 feel maybe they don't feel that it's uh makes sense 116 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:28.959 or logical. But pardon me, sorry about that though it's 117 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:33.920 my fault and uh anyway, So yeah, I mean, I 118 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.480 do think a defendant should be able to get out 119 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:41.879 of that situation in those circumstances. Most of the time, 120 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.399 as as as you in your experience to probably adamants, 121 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.360 you know, judges usually go along with whatever the parties 122 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:50.959 work out. You know, most of the time, they're they're 123 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:54.680 cool with it, unless it sounds really a lopsided for 124 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:58.800 some reason. But yeah, I mean, like if there's a 125 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.040 if there's are if there's an agreement to no jail, 126 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.360 for example, and a court says, well, I'm inclined to 127 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.240 give your clients some time because I think it's kind 128 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.279 of a heinous offense, then the defendant should be allowed 129 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:13.720 to withdraw us plea and not you know, answer into 130 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.000 that agreement and go to trial or whatever he or 131 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:16.720 she wants to do. 132 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.000 Yeah, it's kind of interesting though. 133 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.240 I think I was trying to think back of it 134 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:24.240 while you were talking. I think I can actually only 135 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:32.839 remember one time when a judge informed everyone on the record, listen, 136 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:34.920 I'm not going to go along with this, So you 137 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:37.720 can withdraw your plea if you want to. 138 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:40.839 Most of the time, you. 139 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.240 Know, well, I guess that's not true, because sometimes, you know, 140 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.480 you have a general agreement as to what's going to happen, 141 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:48.560 and then you're arguing over let's say, the amount of 142 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.879 conditional jail time or something like that, and then in 143 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.959 that circumstance, there's no expectation of having it. But I 144 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:00.399 think the overall question that people have about plea argans 145 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:02.800 a lot of the time is like, well, what is 146 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:09.360 what's more important to a society, efficiency and efficacy or 147 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:13.240 getting the right answer? Not to say that juries always do, 148 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.480 but you know, where should we come down on that spectrum? 149 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:19.079 And I think it's a fair debate, and I could 150 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:19.959 take either sides of everyone. 151 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.079 You don't, Yeah, it's definitely a fair debate, Adam, I 152 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.240 I agree. I think that. I mean, in my view, 153 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:31.040 I think the nature of the offenses should govern that 154 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:37.840 whole equation essentially. So if you know, violent criminals should 155 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.480 should certainly not be getting good good deals that non 156 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:44.279 violent criminals get. I mean, so if they're a threat 157 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.639 to society, if they're a danger, if they committed us, 158 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.759 you know, a violent offense, for they attempted murder, murder, raped, 159 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:57.159 something like, you know, excessive, then those people certainly should 160 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:01.720 not get the same kind of uh expectations that a 161 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.879 non violent criminal would. So, uh, that's my position on it. 162 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:09.440 I think I. 163 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.159 Guess I'm I'm I'm a little bit of an outlier 164 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.120 on this part of it. Is just the simple fact 165 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.279 that I love trials and really enjoy enjoyed that part 166 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.960 of the process when I was doing it. So I 167 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.360 think I tend to come down more on the side 168 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.600 of here's what I'll offer if the person wants to 169 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.759 plead guilty. If not, that's fine, we'll try the case, 170 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:33.919 you know, because that's what the We built this court 171 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:35.000 for that reason. 172 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:35.159 You know. 173 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.159 We spent all this money, and this wood is this 174 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.759 mahogany is really nice, so maybe we should let some 175 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.159 people see it from time to time. I would argue, 176 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:45.440 and you can disagree with me on this if you 177 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:50.240 want to, that the efficacy of plea bargaining is undercut, 178 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.679 not primarily by the plea bargaining process itself, that is 179 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:58.080 actually undercut by the bail process, and that there's a 180 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:03.000 tremendous power imbalance that winds up being created when a 181 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.360 defendant cannot post bail and has to sit in jail 182 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:10.279 awaiting the outcome of the case. That the problem isn't 183 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:12.960 how we're bargaining. The problem is that process. That if 184 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:15.840 we could fix that, then that would level the scales 185 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:16.679 a little bit more. 186 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:18.120 What do you think agreed? Disagree? 187 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:24.159 Yeah, I mean yes, I mean, I mean I would 188 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:27.639 agree with that as a general rule. I think that again, 189 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:29.919 I think it comes down to the nature of the offense. 190 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:34.039 I mean, uh, you know, not violent criminals should not 191 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:37.759 be getting bail or low bail or easy bail because 192 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.159 society might you know, be affected by that. And I'm 193 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.720 a defense lawyer and I'm saying that, I mean, nobody 194 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:47.039 wants violent criminals on the street who could harm other 195 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:51.120 people if they're being charged with the violent offense. That 196 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:55.759 being said, you know, there are people who who you know, 197 00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:59.279 who do wind up sitting in jail longer than they 198 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:01.919 should waiting for their case to be resolved because they 199 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:06.320 can't afford to to bond out. And uh, you know 200 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.559 that's I think that's incredibly unfair and and certainly as 201 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:11.919 long as they're not a threat to society, and you know, 202 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.000 they should be able to uh to not have to 203 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.639 sit in jail waiting for their trial. You know, they 204 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:20.759 have a right to a speedy trial. But but we 205 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:23.320 we we we both know that that speedy is not 206 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:27.480 really speedy, right, It's it's it's not speedy. It's it's uh, 207 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.399 there's there's nothing speedy about the justice system at all. 208 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.960 It's it's it's a slow process that people hate being 209 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:39.039 involved in when they're there. But uh uh yeah, yeah, 210 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.399 I mean I think it's a sexial like you mentioned 211 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:45.440 Adam to to to you know, balance those things out, 212 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.879 and so that's that's my take on it. 213 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.559 But even you know, thinking about the violent offender that 214 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.440 you brought up, because you know, the purpose of bail 215 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.320 is is usually usually two things. It's it's to ensure 216 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.840 the person, the guy it's usually a guy sorry, sorry, folks, 217 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:03.960 shows up you know, to court. 218 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:05.200 Okay, that's step one. 219 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.360 Step two is you know, okay, well, maybe we have 220 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.320 to protect the public from some of these things, you know, 221 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.360 but unless you have someone who is a you know, 222 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:17.960 just an absolute habitual offender, you know, I would always argue, well, well, 223 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.240 the public can be protected by bail conditions. 224 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:22.120 So those who aren't aware of what I'm. 225 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.720 Talking about is that the court can set the bail. 226 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:26.399 Let's just say they said it one hundred thousand dollars 227 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.639 is a bad case, Okay, something something bad happens, But 228 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:32.639 then they can also set conditions on that. 229 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:33.960 And in the federal system. 230 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.360 I could have you checking in with a US Probation 231 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:39.000 and Parole agent if I want it to, or if 232 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:40.639 the judge wanted to. And we don't, by the way, 233 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:44.039 normally set cash bail in federal court. We always kind 234 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:45.679 of took the position of we either think you're going 235 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.120 to show up or you're not, and that's all that 236 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:51.279 there is to it. So, you know, to to that extent, 237 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:54.279 I would argue, no, I don't think that that. I 238 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.600 don't think that the bail should be overly set because frankly, 239 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.639 we can deal with it with conditions. And also, isn't 240 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.399 this guy innocent until proven guilty? 241 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:10.200 Yes, that's a great point, and there's they're certainly supposed 242 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:16.000 to be innocent until proven guilty. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, 243 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.279 I think that, you know, I've you know, Over the 244 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.559 twenty three years that I've been been a lawyer, I 245 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:27.360 haven't had any issues with bail for any of my 246 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.440 clients because most of them are you know, are haven't 247 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.919 been horrific or you know, super violent people, so there 248 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:43.799 was never a major dispute about it. But yes, I understand, 249 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.399 and I certainly from a from a laypersons standpoint, if 250 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:51.919 a person you know gets charged there, you know, their 251 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.679 their first offense, their first time they're in the system, 252 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.879 they may be shocked about how the process works and 253 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.000 and how how bail can high and then it's showed 254 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:01.799 and stuff like that. 255 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:05.879 Yeah, and I also think one of the problems, and 256 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.679 I hate these by the way, I hate bail schedules. 257 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.360 Bail schedules are when the usually when the I actually 258 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.000 hate it when the legislature intervenes in general in the 259 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.639 court system. I don't like it when they're structuring mandatory 260 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.720 minimum sentences or changing the way that things function. A 261 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:28.159 mandatory minimum, folks, would be like a floor to say like, Okay, 262 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.039 if somebody does X, Y or Z, you cannot sentence 263 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.279 them below. 264 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:33.440 Whatever that number is. 265 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.679 And to me that's always just been utterly pointless, Like no, 266 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.840 judge would ever go below it's a you know, a 267 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:44.600 first degree sexual assault case. No judge is going to 268 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.240 go below that number anyway. It's it's absolutely pointless to 269 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.159 put it in there, and all it does is it 270 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:53.399 takes the ability of the court to be versatile away. 271 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.240 And I hate bail schedules for the same reason. The 272 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.519 bail schedule is typically when the legislature says, well, this 273 00:14:58.559 --> 00:14:59.960 is how much the bail is going to be set 274 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.600 for these things, Because then what happens is you may 275 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.480 have an indigent person, a very poor person, who can't 276 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.360 actually set one hundred and fifty dollars cash bail, believe 277 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:12.960 it or not, maybe three hundred dollars for a petty offense, 278 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.480 and so now they're sitting in jail because of it. 279 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:20.320 To me, that is grossly unjust and grossly unfair. 280 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:21.759 Do you have on. 281 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:26.559 Bail schedules in Arizona where you practice. 282 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.039 No, we don't. I mean, so it's not an issue here. 283 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:31.279 I mean, yes, I'm familiar with it. I've practiced in 284 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:36.159 three different states over the years, But no issues with 285 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:40.480 that here. As far as as far as a bail schedule, 286 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:44.200 I would agree that we really shouldn't have the legislature 287 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:49.039 involved in setting these things, because we want abundant discretion 288 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:53.639 to be with the courts, because you know, make your arguments, 289 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.240 and if your argument is good, then the judge he 290 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.240 or she is gonna you know, hopefully be logical and 291 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.480 reasonable that situation. So yeah, I would agree with that. 292 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:06.039 That makes no sense to have any kind of preset 293 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:10.279 things that takes the discretion out of the judge's hands. 294 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.159 So it's good to have it there where it should be. 295 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.720 I think the most egregious example of that that I 296 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:19.919 encountered was there was a rule I actually don't know 297 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.120 if it's in place anymore, but there was a rule 298 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.120 in the federal system at least that there was a 299 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.399 five year mandatory minimum if it was a drug offense 300 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:29.519 that involved a gun, if they found a gun you 301 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.120 know there, and I distinctly remember one young man who, 302 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:38.279 you know, he had essentially a hunting rifle, was arrested 303 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.399 with not a very large amount of marijuana, okay, but 304 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.360 received a five year mandatory minimum sentence because there was 305 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.039 nothing that the judge could do about it. That to me, 306 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.159 is a complete miscarriage of justice. That's not how the 307 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:52.200 system should operate. 308 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:57.200 Agree, Yeah, I agree with that. I think that that's overkill. 309 00:16:57.600 --> 00:16:59.480 What's the point of putting that guy in jail for 310 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.480 five here? I mean, people who do things that are 311 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.480 far worse get less time than that. So yes, I'm 312 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:09.920 not a big fan of that kind of mandatory minimum either. 313 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:10.759 Yeah. 314 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.079 And you know, part of it is is, you know, 315 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.480 you always I worked with a there's a federal judge 316 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.200 once since she kept a post a note on her 317 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.119 computer with just the number that it costs to incarcerate 318 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.039 someone for one year, just as a reminder of what 319 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.319 all this is, because I think we have to remember 320 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:28.480 at the end of the day that you know, the 321 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:32.079 United States incarcerates more people than anywhere else on the 322 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.680 planet Earth, all right, and that's more than authoritarian China, 323 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.960 more than Iran. And then some you know, the IRGC 324 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:40.960 might just kill them, so that might not that's maybe 325 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.359 not an issue they have. But you know, the point 326 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.799 of it is, you know, for for a society. And 327 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.240 I'll just ask you a question on this, because I 328 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.640 think it's a good philosophical question for a society that 329 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.440 prides itself so much on liberty and equality and it's 330 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.240 justice system, Why are we throwing so many Americans in 331 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:01.400 prison for so long. 332 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:09.359 Yeah, I mean that's ah, that's the mystery. It's it's 333 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:13.559 a great point, I mean, with the point you made 334 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:16.319 at them with with with being Americans. Liberty is so 335 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:20.160 precious to us, and and it's you know, freedom of this, 336 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.240 freedom of that, freedom of the other thing. You know, 337 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.640 there's all kinds of freedoms that that we that that 338 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:30.880 we value. So why are there so many people in jail? Uh? 339 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:35.079 I think that's you know that that's probably the subject 340 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.200 of a of a thesis for somebody who wants to 341 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.319 write their PhD on Hunter or something. You know, it's 342 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:46.599 like very complex, very complex question because you know, I 343 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.160 would say in my experience, most states, if they're if 344 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.880 they're non violent, their risk of doing time is far 345 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.839 less than somebody who's violent. I mean, I just did so. 346 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.279 And of course if they have an extent it's a 347 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:04.400 criminal record, you know, that makes them more susceptible to 348 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:10.440 to doing time. And sometimes it's unavoidable because certain states 349 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.079 have sentenencing guidelines that they go by or statute says 350 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:15.400 you know that X, y Z, and those things make 351 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.119 things complicated. If someone has a prior record, So as 352 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:24.720 you as you mentioned before, with mandatory minimums, you know, 353 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.039 it's a challenging subject. Definitely a challenging subject that that 354 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.200 is difficult to answer. 355 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.599 Yeah, one of the things that I always kept, you know, 356 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.720 I mentioned the judge who had the number for the 357 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:39.640 amount that each person was going to cost the taxpayers, 358 00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:42.279 because we have to pay for this at some point, 359 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.400 and that's something that we have to remember. 360 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:44.640 You know. 361 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.279 We can all applaud, you know, like a massive sentence 362 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.880 for a relatively small thing, some things like well, that good, 363 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:54.279 that person's gone, but it's like, yes, but that's going 364 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:56.759 to cost you. You know, not only is it going 365 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.839 to cost you what it takes to incarcerate them, but 366 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.279 that is a person that is no longer a part 367 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.599 of the economy in a productive sentence, in any way, 368 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:07.039 shape or form. They are now purely a drag on society. 369 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:08.799 And so the number that I always kept in my 370 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.119 mind was the number thirty two. 371 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:11.480 And the reason that. 372 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:16.000 I kept that in my mind was because studies have 373 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.960 shown that reviticism, the chances of you reoffending plummet if 374 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.559 you're a male after the age of thirty two. So 375 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.240 like on once you get to that age, the odds 376 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.720 of you continuing to reoffend go down almost to zero 377 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.319 in most cases, which is kind of remarkable. And it's 378 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.039 kind of remarkable that we don't see that more often. 379 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.119 Are those arguments that you ever hear. It's something that 380 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:40.359 I would bring up quite frequently. 381 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.680 Well, that's a great statistic. No, I was unaware of 382 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:53.880 that specific number, and I am. I think it's fascinating. 383 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.119 I think it's fascinating that. I mean that males over, 384 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:00.559 you know, thirty two are over, you know, they're their 385 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.160 chance of repeating, of being a repeat defender. Plumbt. I 386 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.880 would say that that, you know, that's a great number 387 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.839 that the legislators in different states need to take into 388 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:15.039 account so that they can, you know, so that sentencing 389 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:19.519 guidelines make sense, you know, because it there seems to 390 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:24.640 be a trial penalty. And I Protestant in Michigan, Massachusetts 391 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:27.839 and Arizona all over the years, and there's a trial 392 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.160 penalty like it seems in every state that that I've 393 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.720 practiced in, where if you go to trial and you lose, 394 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:38.480 you're gonna get hammered, you know, with with more time 395 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.480 than had you pled pled guilty or perhaps zero time 396 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:47.200 if if you plead guilty. So those things certainly play 397 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.759 a role as well. And uh, I think that number 398 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.440 is an is an important number that needs to be 399 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:55.759 taken into account for sure. 400 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:58.759 Kind of pushing on that point too, I don't how 401 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.920 is that fair? Like, how is it fair that someone 402 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.759 who exercises a right that they have under the constitution 403 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:07.160 to a trial by jury. 404 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.319 It's in the constitution, folks. You can go look it 405 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:10.559 up right now if you want to. 406 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:16.480 How is it fair to punish someone purely for executing 407 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.400 that right. They may feel that they are innocent, and 408 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:21.440 isn't that they're right? I mean, why should they be 409 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:22.119 punished for that? 410 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:25.680 Yeah, I think it's unfair as well. I mean I've 411 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:28.799 always thought thought it was unfair. It's just a reality 412 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.240 that that people have to deal with, and so they 413 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.200 have to weigh that with the in the plea burnening process. Okay, 414 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.759 so what are they going to face if they try 415 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:44.960 it and lose? What? You know? And I don't have 416 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.440 an easy answer as to how to you know, resolve 417 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:53.880 that issue. It's definitely unfair. It's certainly unfair, and I'm 418 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.400 sure judges find it to be unfair too if they 419 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.960 have sentencing guidelines to go by by statute, the guidelines say, okay, 420 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.799 the person has to get you know, a minimum of 421 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.519 two and a half years for whatever for for for 422 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:11.640 this offense. And uh, you know it's punitive for sure, 423 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.680 you know, even even potentially for somebody who's guilty. You know, 424 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.880 if somebody committed a defense but but thinks that the 425 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:23.039 case against them is weak, why why can't they Why 426 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.680 can't they try the case and and uh and see 427 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.319 what happens or kind of roll the dice. And I 428 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.920 think that the issue of judicial economy comes in there. 429 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:35.279 You know, you don't want to waste money having a 430 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.079 trial or you know, in a situation where the person 431 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:43.559 should have been smarter to take a plea bargain. But yeah, 432 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.599 that's always been something that's been a sticking point for 433 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.160 me too over the years, and thankfully I haven't had 434 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:51.640 to deal with it too often. 435 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.880 Yeah, it's to me, it's always again one of those questions. 436 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.160 And when whenever that happens, you know that there were 437 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:07.559 some judges who would say, okay, well put the deal 438 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.559 on the record first and have the person say that 439 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.480 they don't want it, and we'll go to trial and 440 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.359 then they'll get something else if they lose. 441 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:15.559 Right then and there, it seems to me like. 442 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.440 The whole like we're actually pulling the curtain back from 443 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.839 the machine for a second, and we're saying like, Okay, 444 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:24.160 this is actually just about efficiency. This isn't actually about justice, 445 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.759 this is this is just purely about efficiency, and we're 446 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:29.000 just going to let you know it right now, you know. 447 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:31.880 And that's and and to me, that's always struck me 448 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.960 as a little bit unfair. Like if you think it's 449 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.279 a reasonable offer to extend to a defendant, then how 450 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:42.440 does them exercising their constitutional right make that an unreasonable 451 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:46.200 proposition going forward like that? To me, I've always been 452 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.200 a little bit surprised when judges do that. Then I've 453 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.279 always been I mean, I know why. I know why, 454 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:53.200 because they don't want it to come back on you know, 455 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:56.400 appeal and all that. But like it seems silly. But 456 00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:59.000 speaking of constitutional rights, I want to talk to you 457 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.000 and ask you a little bit about it. 458 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.680 Issue that was in the news just the other day. 459 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:06.359 You know, for those who are unaware, the always forget 460 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.079 think a center for disease or something like that. Anthony Faucip, 461 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.359 You guys remember the COVID guy right like he was. 462 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.680 He was just before Congress, and I think over one 463 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.039 hundred times pled the fifth, which is your your constitutional 464 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.279 right not to incriminate themselves. But at then this morning 465 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:26.480 they voted in committee and it sounds like charges will 466 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.319 be referred to the Department of Justice for him exercising 467 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:32.920 that right. And it seems like the argument is, well, 468 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.960 he received a pardon for his conduct during COVID, so 469 00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:38.920 you know he shouldn't be allowed to take the Fifth. 470 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.279 I disagree with that for reasons I can get into, 471 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.319 but I wanted to ask you what you thought about it, 472 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.079 because I do think the Fifth Amendment is one of 473 00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:49.680 the most important and next to the Fourth, which we 474 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.599 can get to in a second, most important amendments that 475 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.400 we have that protects us. So what is your just 476 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.920 sort of gut feeling about that situation, given your given 477 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:02.400 your years of sperience and role in the courtroom. 478 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:06.359 Yeah, I mean it's a complex question. So when I 479 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:10.359 first see the question objectively, and I'm I'm looking at it, 480 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.920 I'm thinking, Number one, he has a right to invoke 481 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.319 the Fifth as often as he wants. Why should he 482 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.240 be a witness against himself? He doesn't have to be, 483 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.400 So why would he want to be moreover his attorney, 484 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.839 whoever that attorney is, Because he had an attorney with him. 485 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:28.000 As I recall, you know, it would be malpractice for 486 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:30.519 the attorney not to tell him to invoke the fifth. 487 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:32.759 He has to tell him to do that so he 488 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.559 doesn't incriminate himself. So you got to you got an 489 00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:38.720 attorney bound by these ethical rules that you know, I 490 00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:42.519 can't let my client screw up here, So just you know, 491 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:46.200 take the fifth every time, which is what any good 492 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:48.599 lawyer would tell their client to do. And at the 493 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.599 same time, you want, you know, the Congress wants answers, 494 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.920 the public wants answers. So from a pure criminal standpoint, 495 00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.880 I think that you know that you know, he absolutely 496 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.960 to invoke the fifth there if he thinks he's going 497 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.079 to incriminate himself, and his lawyer has to tell him 498 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.519 to do that. So if those two things are in play, 499 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.359 you know, it's not really going to be a substantive 500 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.839 hearing or a helpful hearing. You know, it's not going 501 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.440 to be. I mean, I think he's kind of caught 502 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:18.640 between a rock and a hard place. 503 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:22.160 Yeah, and I tend I mean, obviously I agree with 504 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.559 you on that. I think I'm a stickler for the 505 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:27.759 constitution folks, So sorry about that, but like, I think 506 00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.759 we did spend a lot of time working on this, 507 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.359 and like we should probably stick with it. 508 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.519 It's worked for Turnered in some years. 509 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:35.440 I didn't go back to tour in fifty because that 510 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.880 goes back to the Declaration of Independence with preseeds the constitution. 511 00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.000 Guys, look it up. We had the Articles of Confederation. 512 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.079 It was a thing. It sucked. 513 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:46.000 But you know, for me, it comes down to this 514 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.039 question of and I'm going to be honest with and 515 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:50.720 please don't send me an angry email. Okay, please don't 516 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.640 send me an angry email, because I'm not familiar with 517 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:57.119 the full text of the pardon that doctor Fauci received. 518 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:03.000 But what I'm wondering is, you know, does it cover perjury, 519 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.240 you know, because it could be well, we're not looking 520 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:08.839 for answers about what happened during COVID, you know, we're 521 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:10.880 just looking for what Honestly, I think most of the 522 00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:13.039 time on both sides of the Aisle Congress is just 523 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:14.640 looking for sound bites for social media. 524 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:16.079 They don't actually want to do anything. 525 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.599 But you know, there maybe they're just looking for contempt 526 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.559 because I don't a pardon for conduct in COVID if 527 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.839 correct me, if I'm wrong, that that would protect him 528 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.920 from a contempt or from a perjury proceeding if he 529 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:31.079 contradicts himself. 530 00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:34.519 Right, No, we no, we're not. And and I haven't 531 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.680 seen the actual pardon either, but that's an excellent point. 532 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:42.359 I think that, you know, I mean, uh, regardless of 533 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:46.000 the pardon, he doesn't have immunity to testify against Conrad 534 00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:49.559 right openly. And you know he hasn't been granted that. 535 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:52.359 And whatever his pardon was for, it was probably for 536 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:58.200 something specific or semi specific. And so yeah, I mean 537 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:00.839 I think that he I think that any smart person 538 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.839 in his situation. What I don't like Anthony Fauci just 539 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:05.359 you know, I don't think he did a good job. 540 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:07.279 And I think there's a lot of a lot of 541 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:09.799 crap going on there. But still, I mean, as a 542 00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.640 you know, as an objective attorney, I would say that, 543 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:15.880 you know, taking the fifth is completely smart. His attorney 544 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.279 told him to do it, he's listening to counsel. His 545 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:20.640 counsel I think, must tell him to do that in 546 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:24.480 that situation. So there's it's kind of like unavoidable. I 547 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.279 think if they're you know, if they really think that 548 00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.079 he committed something outside of the guidelines of whatever that 549 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.640 pardon is, then then you know, refer to the Justice 550 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:37.000 Department and see what happens, you know, I mean, but otherwise, 551 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:39.400 just trying to get him just to tell a lie 552 00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:44.440 under oath, yeah, I don't think is very honorable, you know, 553 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:46.400 just it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 554 00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:47.960 Yeah, I tend to agree with you. 555 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.000 And you know, I go, I go back and forth 556 00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.839 on Anthony Fauci, and you know, he by the way, 557 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:54.880 you can look him up back by the way, there's 558 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.279 like a you can go all the way back into 559 00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:57.640 the I. 560 00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:58.799 Believe George H. W. 561 00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:01.839 Bush era, and some of the past history on him 562 00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:07.240 during the AIDS epidemic wasn't particularly great either. So you know, 563 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.279 it's I'm not an apologist for the guy, but you know, 564 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:13.519 as I said, I am an apologist for the Constitution, 565 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:15.799 and I don't think that we should be engaging in 566 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.039 fishing expeditions. 567 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:18.319 Like like you just said. 568 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.799 If look, if you think that you have charges that 569 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:24.440 you can bring against him, and I've had conversations with 570 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.240 attorneys about this then then bring the charges. We'll have 571 00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:30.400 a trial you know, or you know, or we'll have 572 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:32.640 motions about it. We don't need to we don't we 573 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.599 don't need to go this bizarre run around through it. 574 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:37.839 But let's let's transition again. I do want to talk 575 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.559 about the Fourth Amendment because I'm fascinated by the Fourth Amendment, 576 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.960 you know, and actually before we get going, can you 577 00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.960 just go ahead and give a quick two second overview 578 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:49.279 or the a couple second overview of the Fourth Amendment, 579 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:51.160 because let's make sure everybody knows what the heck we're 580 00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:51.680 talking about. 581 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:58.680 A certain seizure basically is the is what uh the 582 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:01.880 Amendment protect people from. So so basically, you know, uh, 583 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.200 people have a right to not be searched or stopped 584 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.400 by police and you know, unless they had probable cause 585 00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:14.559 to do so. And it's most commonly in criminal cases 586 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.599 where someone gets pulled over and you know, when can 587 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:21.039 the police search the vehicle? When can they search the trunk? 588 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.599 When can they you know, how do those things come 589 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:28.680 into play? And so generally speaking of they the police 590 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.319 have to get a warrant to to do law a 591 00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.759 lawful search. You know, it depends on that the facts 592 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.680 of every case, you know, each each each case is different. 593 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.880 But it's obviously important because you don't want someone searching 594 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:44.079 your house without a warrant. You don't want to start 595 00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:48.039 someone searching your car unless it's, uh, they have cause 596 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.680 to do so, or or there's a warrant and it's uh, 597 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.559 it's it's supposed to protect people from unlawful search and seizures, 598 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.519 and and usually it does a pretty good job of 599 00:31:57.559 --> 00:31:57.920 doing that. 600 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:01.400 Yeah, And I always remind people that, you know, all 601 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:06.119 these amendments include and the Constitution proper, they're historical documents. 602 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:07.960 You know, they grew out of a time, and they 603 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:10.000 grew out of a time when you know, we were 604 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:13.039 concerned that you know, we had just gone through a 605 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:17.440 period of British rule and redcoats could just stop you 606 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.720 if you were in Boston, for example, and and turn 607 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:22.920 out your pockets and so on and so forth, and you. 608 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:23.519 Can't do that. 609 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:25.519 I would think this is a good question for attorneys, 610 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.960 which is, you know, as in my current professional work 611 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:29.359 with a lot of young people who are about to 612 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.759 go into college. Let's just say you're you're you're at college, 613 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:34.240 you're walking down the street, you're on the right of 614 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.359 the ballgame and a cop stops you and say I 615 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:38.000 want to stop you and talk to you for a bit. 616 00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:46.279 What would you advise a person to do in that circumstance. I, yeah, 617 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:50.640 just a random stop, I would I would certainly tell 618 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.599 somebody to not saying anything and to tell them that 619 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.480 you know, they're invoking their constitutional rights and they would 620 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:01.000 like to like to like to continue on with their day. 621 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:04.920 But of course, uh, you know, if they're there would 622 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:08.000 have to be probable cause or reasonable suspicion. In some 623 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:13.200 cases it just depends. And as as a rule, they 624 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.359 can't do that because you know that you've done nothing 625 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:21.960 wrong just walking walking down the street. So my recommendation 626 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.240 to two people most of the time as well to 627 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:27.240 you know, not not to talk to police. They're not 628 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.559 they're not there to help you. They're not there to 629 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.480 assist you. Typically they're they're there to see if you 630 00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:39.920 might want might incriminate yourself. So never good to to 631 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:46.680 to talk to uh police typically when you're UH. When 632 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.880 they're when you've been arrested and they're trying to interrogate you, 633 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:52.039 ask for a lawyer. Always ask for a lawyer. I 634 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.119 want a lawyer. And then you know, go from there, 635 00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.480 don't do anything on your own. Uh is usually the 636 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.400 recommendation that I would give people. 637 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.720 Yeah, I think you know sometimes when I when I 638 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.160 talk to two folks, I tell them link if you 639 00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:08.719 if you're going to ask anything or say anything, and 640 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.039 response to them, I say, put your hands up in 641 00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:12.920 the air like in front of you. I got nothing 642 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:17.639 and ask a simple question, officer. Am I being detained? 643 00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:20.920 You know, because that then shifts the legal and you 644 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.079 guys don't know anything about that, but that that then 645 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.199 starts to shift the legal burden of what they have 646 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.320 to show. And technically, if you are detained, you should 647 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:32.000 be given your rights at that point. If you're not 648 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:34.679 free to just turn around and walk away, it's it's 649 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.400 a different kind of stop at that point. And so, 650 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:40.320 but that I completely agree with you. 651 00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:40.840 Listen. 652 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:43.719 I worked with some great officers. There's there's no doubt 653 00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:46.199 about it. But then you know, I work with some 654 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.599 I work with someones who I guess skip science class 655 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:51.840 because what they learned about the scientific method was you 656 00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.079 picked the conclusion and then you cherry pick the evidence 657 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:57.119 that leads you to that conclusion, which is not what 658 00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:59.440 you are supposed to do. But I'm interested in your 659 00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.800 take on the Worth Amendment as it kind of stands 660 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:04.679 right now. You know, with with our current Supreme Court 661 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.159 and the way jurisprudence is going, do you does it 662 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:11.679 seem like the Fourth Amendments getting whittled away at all? 663 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:14.119 Or are we coming into a period where we might 664 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:15.880 actually see a little bit of a strengthening. 665 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.519 Wow, that's a great question, I would say. I mean, uh, 666 00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:25.480 I can go. I could go either way on those 667 00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:32.440 two possibilities. Certainly, I think that you know, I I 668 00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.320 was hoping that Supreme Court was going to be a 669 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:42.840 little more logical and reasonable than they then the current status. 670 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.679 And certainly I don't think it's also that great to 671 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.679 have nine lawyers in in DC, you know, running the 672 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:55.480 country and steering, steering, steering things constantly, because you know, really, uh, 673 00:35:56.119 --> 00:36:02.280 we're they were spoke to be the weakest branch of 674 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.719 the of the three branches, and and now they're like 675 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.840 the strongest branch. Basically, basically, you can't do anything unless 676 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:09.880 unless the Supreme Court SAT says you can do it. 677 00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:15.519 And so I certainly hope that that the that the 678 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.039 Fourth Endment will will be strengthened over the years and 679 00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:25.239 that and and uh, you know, more secure for your 680 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:31.000 average citizen. I don't really know, you know, my personal 681 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.360 take on it as far as uh, you know, the 682 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:38.639 current status of things. I think that uh, I don't 683 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:42.519 deal with it that much with uh, with the criminal 684 00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:44.719 cases that I defend, which is good. I mean, I 685 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.760 mean I don't see so many too many violations of 686 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.119 that issue, but certainly others can. Others may may differ 687 00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:55.960 depending on what what their practice is. Like you know, Sorry, 688 00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:57.079 I kind of went off on a tangent. 689 00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:58.320 No, that's all right. 690 00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:00.760 I think where where I start to get a little 691 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:06.559 bit concerned is with artificial intelligence and how that's going 692 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:12.440 to be utilized by different law enforcement agencies. To me, 693 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:18.199 that's where I see a potential slippery slope because now 694 00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:21.480 you have I mean, you didn't really have the ability 695 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:25.599 to analyze massive data sets, whether that's video or audio 696 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.760 or you know, yet you could wire tab everybody. Sure, 697 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.280 but like, what are you going to do? How are 698 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:32.440 you going to go through all of that? 699 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:33.039 Well? 700 00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:36.239 Well, now you, I mean you could if you wanted to. 701 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.719 I don't know, are you Are you all worried about that? 702 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:41.760 Because I have to be honest, I'm a little bit concerned. 703 00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:48.920 Yeah, I understand your your concerns. Logical I'm a logical person, 704 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.960 and certainly AI, you know, it has all kinds of 705 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:56.440 possibilities that scare people and make people happy. At the 706 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:58.400 same time, you got someone like, oh, well, you know, 707 00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:00.880 it's going to make our lives so much easier. It's 708 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:04.320 gonna you know, but yeah, that's a great point. We 709 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:08.039 definitely don't want them, you know, uh, you know, uh, 710 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:12.320 wire taping people just you know, willy nilly. You know, 711 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:14.800 I don't want people knowing what I talk about in 712 00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:17.159 my home. I don't want people, you know, not knowing 713 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:19.119 what people talk about in their own homes that they 714 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:23.119 have they have a right to that privacy. So uh, 715 00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:29.360 I'm hopeful. I mean, you know, some of these you know, uh, 716 00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:32.480 these data centers scare me too, you know, like how 717 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:34.920 many data centers do we need? I don't know. I mean, 718 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:41.760 uh so I'm I'm leria AI and at the same 719 00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:45.159 time hopeful that it that it will but help us. 720 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:48.840 But but I I certainly can see the uh, the 721 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:51.840 possibilities and the problems with it creating all kinds of 722 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:55.960 issues and giving the government more more power than they 723 00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:01.280 should have certainly to hurt somebody's Fourth Amendment rights. That's 724 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:03.840 what I was going to say. I'm sorry, yeah. 725 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.280 You know, and I think, like you, you know, the 726 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.280 counter argument is going to be, well, it'll be okay 727 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.599 because the person will have their day in court. But 728 00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:13.079 the problem is is, you know, once an arrest or 729 00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:15.760 something hits the news, like, there's there's no taking that back, 730 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:17.800 you know, there's that you can't you can't put that 731 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:20.320 genie back in the bottle. And for you know, how 732 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.239 however much I might crow about innocent until proven guilty, 733 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.239 you know, that's not That's not how. 734 00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:27.079 Everybody sees it. 735 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.679 But you kind of brought up one last thing that 736 00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.880 I wanted to ask your opinion on because it was 737 00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:35.639 I think it's a very illustrative point in that the 738 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:38.679 Supreme Court and the judicial branch was was definitely supposed 739 00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:42.920 to have them the weakest branch under the Constitution. In fact, 740 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:45.920 if you want, you know, you can go pull up 741 00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:49.559 the article of the Constitution, Article three, that discusses the 742 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:53.159 Supreme Court. It is one sentence, there shall be a 743 00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.559 Supreme Court like that. That is the sentence. It doesn't 744 00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:58.119 say that there should be nine people. It doesn't say that. 745 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.119 How it is very very vague as to what the 746 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:05.519 Supreme Court should be. Compare that to Article one on 747 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.320 the legislative branch or Article two on the executive branch, 748 00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:11.480 and you'll see very quickly what the founding fathers and 749 00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:12.960 the Framers spent their time on. 750 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:14.159 And it wasn't that. 751 00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:19.360 And I agree, I think it's really problematic that the 752 00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.360 Court is now effectively legislating from the branch. That's effectively 753 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:26.440 what they are doing. I mean, we're not even going 754 00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:30.639 to give administrative agencies as much discretion as we used 755 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:34.159 to under a recent ruling. I think that's very problematic 756 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.719 because I think it creates distance between the people and 757 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.000 the law that shouldn't exist. The distance between the people's House, 758 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.320 the House of Representatives, and the voters is a lot closer. 759 00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:49.039 What do you think about that? I mean, that is 760 00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:50.639 my biggest concern with all of this. 761 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:59.320 Yeah, I mean I would say that there's a lot 762 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.239 there with regard to the Supreme Court. Yes, they were 763 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.360 supposed to be the weakest branch. If you look at 764 00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:09.280 some uh look history, sometimes a president, an early president 765 00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:11.800 would ignore what the Supreme Court said if they thought 766 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:14.000 it was ridiculous and then it didn't make any sense. 767 00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.719 I'm not too crazy about federal judges being appointed for life. 768 00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.480 I mean, I think that's ridiculous. I think that that 769 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:27.920 creates a problem. I think that that, you know, that 770 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:33.880 leads to that branch being so powerful. And uh, I'm 771 00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:37.039 not crazy about them legislating from from the bench, like 772 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.159 you mentioned. I mean that that's what they're doing. They're 773 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:45.119 you know, Uh, I think they got it wrong on 774 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.239 a few things recently with the with the whole with 775 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:53.599 with immigration, and uh, I don't think I don't think 776 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:58.639 illegal immigrants should be rewarded with citizenships the United States 777 00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:03.760 if they come here legally. I think that that that's logical, 778 00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:06.280 it's common sense. We're not going to give them a 779 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:10.119 reward for doing something unlawful, and I think that the 780 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:13.280 president should have authority to make sure that that doesn't happen. 781 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:15.880 I have no problem with people getting citizenship if they 782 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.440 come and come legally. So I would say that that 783 00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:22.679 they've gotten some things wrong recently, very very disappointed. I'm 784 00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:26.719 not crazy about them having the last word, So I'm 785 00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:29.840 not I'm not a huge fan of the Supreme Court 786 00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:33.639 in comparison to the other two branches in our constitution. 787 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.360 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I suppose the counter argument 788 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.840 would be, well, you know, they the Supreme Court has 789 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:42.079 no choice. They must up in because our Congress is 790 00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.639 so woefully inefficient and inept at this point. 791 00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.880 This is one of the. 792 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:52.039 Least effective congresses, I believe since certainly since World War Two, 793 00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:53.840 and I think almost going back to the Civil War, 794 00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:55.800 which is any time you have to go back to 795 00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:58.239 the Civil War, that's not a good thing, folks. But 796 00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:00.519 you're right, you know, and even early on in our history, 797 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:04.519 I mean Andrew Jackson in a relatively famous case involving 798 00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:08.000 a Native American tribe, when the chief Justice at the 799 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.599 time was the most famous one, John Marshall, found against 800 00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.320 what the president wanted famously said, John Marshall has made 801 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:18.000 his decision, let him enforce it, which of course he 802 00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:21.760 could not do because the Supreme Court lacks an army, 803 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:23.320 which is kind of what you would need to do 804 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:28.639 those things. So I hope we are not going towards 805 00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:32.280 any sort of showdown like that, because I think, given 806 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:37.239 the current political climate, that could be a real breaking point. 807 00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:40.000 And I hope that we can continue to sidestep that 808 00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:42.840 as much as humanly possible, but I don't know. 809 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:46.760 Time will tell. Well, listen, we've had a great conversation. 810 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.480 I got to flex some muscles I haven't flexed a 811 00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:53.000 long time, so that was really fun. And you know, 812 00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:56.000 you're in Arizona right now. So if anybody's in need 813 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.000 of a lawyer at Arizona, as I mentioned, you know, 814 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:00.519 you're the guy, right, You're the person that they should 815 00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:00.920 look up. 816 00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:01.599 I hope that you're not. 817 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:02.840 By the way, if you're listening to this, I hope 818 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:04.360 you're not not that you don't live in Arizona. 819 00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:06.360 I hope you don't need a lawyer. But thanks so much. 820 00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.280 This has been really fun. 821 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:09.920 Thanks Adam for having me. I appreciate it. 822 00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:14.079 Now, not to put too fine a point on it, 823 00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:18.559 because obviously we've had a long interview to explain a 824 00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:21.440 couple of my perspectives, but you know, before we go, 825 00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:25.679 I think it's just important to recognize that the American 826 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:27.280 system is really. 827 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:29.400 Founded on one of the. 828 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:32.079 Core concepts of a liberal and I mean small l 829 00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:35.639 when I say that, I'm talking about traditional Western liberalism 830 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:40.039 and liberal democracy. One of the cornerstones of a liberal 831 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.480 democracy is the rule of law and the idea that 832 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:49.320 the law is applied evenly to everyone. You know, I'm 833 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:53.519 often find myself saying, listen, what's good for the goose 834 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:56.239 is good for the gander when I'm talking to different 835 00:44:56.280 --> 00:45:00.239 people about contemporary politics. And what I mean by that 836 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:03.599 is that it's fine if you're okay with what the 837 00:45:03.639 --> 00:45:06.360 current administration is doing, and I support some of the 838 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.920 administration's policy decisions as well, But if you're okay with 839 00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:14.280 whatever the operations may be, then you have to be 840 00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:19.480 okay if a future I don't know, democratic president does 841 00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:23.760 the same things. If you're not okay with it, then 842 00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:28.519 in general, that's probably the wrong direction to go, because 843 00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:31.920 the rule of law specifies that if this guy does it, 844 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:33.840 then the next guy is going to be able to 845 00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:37.679 do it, and so on and so forth. The guardrails 846 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:40.360 that were put in place by our founding fathers and 847 00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:43.239 the framers of the Constitution were put in place because 848 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:47.159 of their historical experiences with Great Britain, and I think 849 00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:54.320 that it's not too early to be reconsidering what they did. 850 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.920 I mean this, they did it for a very good reason. 851 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:02.360 A lot of our constitutional protection exist for reasons that 852 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.639 maybe we don't fully understand. Today because we didn't live 853 00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:10.519 through a government that didn't respect the rights of its citizens. 854 00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:14.239 But I think that we were guided in our foundation 855 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:19.840 by extremely wise individuals, and I think it's wrong of 856 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.840 us now to start to walk away from some of 857 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:27.960 those things. Yes, religious persecutions of the type that Europe 858 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:31.719 experienced in the seventeenth century and into the eighteenth century, 859 00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:35.079 those are, by and large, in the Western world relics 860 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.079 of the past, But that doesn't mean that they can't 861 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:41.360 come back, or that we should ignore the protections that 862 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:44.719 the founding fathers put in to make sure that we 863 00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:49.039 have those rights. It's really important for us to protect 864 00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:54.559 and value the Constitution. And remember, when you swear an 865 00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:58.800 oath to this country, you don't swear an oath to 866 00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:03.519 a person. This is not Ancient Rome, this is not 867 00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:07.440 the Empire. We're not swearing to Caesar. You are swearing 868 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:11.480 to a concept, to an idea of a government. And 869 00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:15.079 that idea is epitomized in the value of our constitution. 870 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:18.239 And yes, as I said repeatedly throughout the interview, I'm 871 00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:20.599 a little bit of a stickler for the Constitution. What 872 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:24.039 can I say, I really like it, I really think 873 00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:26.480 it is important and I think that we need to 874 00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:30.000 hold to it in the future, and I hope that 875 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:33.559 we all remember that in the times to come, that 876 00:47:33.639 --> 00:47:37.679 the Constitution matters. If in the next four years we 877 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:41.480 have a different president and they don't respect the Constitution, 878 00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:43.880 then we need to hold them to it, because that's 879 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:47.119 the rule book, folks. That's what we all agreed to 880 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:50.559 when we started to play this game. And you don't 881 00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:52.920 get to change the rules midstream because. 882 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:54.159 You don't like the outcome. 883 00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.000 Our founding fathers thought it was important that we had 884 00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.760 a set of guiding principles, and the law is a 885 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:05.199 principal part of that. And for better or for worse, again, what. 886 00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:06.519 Can I say. 887 00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:09.480 It may be old, it may be a little worn 888 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:13.960 in times, but gosh, I still really love that Constitution, 889 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.400 all right. So this was again a little bit of 890 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:21.840 aside today, But when the opportunity came across my desk, 891 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.360 I thought we would take a chance. And you know, 892 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:26.199 it's summertime. I've got a little bit of extra time 893 00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:28.719 in my hands, so why not. And I think in 894 00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:30.719 the end it was worth it, and I hope you 895 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:33.639 enjoyed it. If not, sorry, we'll be back on to 896 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.159 the regular feed in a moment and you can get 897 00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:37.480 back to the history that we all. 898 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:38.760 Know and love. 899 00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:42.760 So until next time from Western SIEV signing off.