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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. In nineteen seventy six, a killer who called
Speaker 4: himself the son of Sam, shot and killed a half
Speaker 4: dozen people and wounded as many more in New York City.
Speaker 4: During his crime spree, the madman left bizarre lets mocking
Speaker 4: the police and promising more deaths. After months of terrorizing
Speaker 4: the city while garnering front page headlines and international attention,
Speaker 4: a man named David Berkowitz was arrested. He confessed to
Speaker 4: the shootings, claiming to be obeying a demon that resided
Speaker 4: in a dog that belonged to his neighbor Sam. Among
Speaker 4: the alleged victims was Carl Denaro. On the night he
Speaker 4: was shot, Denaro was hanging out with some friends at
Speaker 4: a bar when he met up with a woman named
Speaker 4: Rosemary Keenan. The couple left the bar and went to
Speaker 4: Keenan's car for some privacy However, a few minutes later,
Speaker 4: the windows of the car exploded as de Naro was
Speaker 4: shot in the head by an unseen assailant. Miraculously, Denaro
Speaker 4: survived the attack. When Berkowitz was arrested, he was charged
Speaker 4: with trying to kill Denaro. However, there was a twist.
Speaker 4: Although he confessed to the other shootings after his conviction,
Speaker 4: Berkowitz denied attacking Denaro. Now, after years of research, Denaro
Speaker 4: is convinced that Berkowitz was telling the truth and that
Speaker 4: someone else tried to kill him. The book that we're
Speaker 4: featuring this evening is The Son of Sam and Me
Speaker 4: The Truth About Why I Wasn't shot by David Berkowitz,
Speaker 4: with my special guests, investigator and author Carl Denario. Welcome
Speaker 4: to the program, and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 2: Carl Denaro, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for this. First off, you talk
Speaker 4: about in the book before we get to the Faithful Day,
Speaker 4: obviously that you became inextricably involved with the Son and
Speaker 4: Son of Sam story, and also this case you give
Speaker 4: credit to your daughter, Casey so many years later, your daughter,
Speaker 4: how was she an influence? What happened and why in
Speaker 4: this project that she had as a film student. What
Speaker 4: inspired you to write this book?
Speaker 2: Well, I've got her on an idea of writing a
Speaker 2: book for many, many years, but I never really felt
Speaker 2: I had a story that other people would be interested in.
Speaker 2: Along about twenty fifteen, my daughter was a film student
Speaker 2: at the time, had to produce a student thesis film
Speaker 2: and she decided to do a story on me. So
Speaker 2: through her interview interview with me and my friends, my family,
Speaker 2: a lot of questions that never really were asked to
Speaker 2: me or I really thought about, came up and got
Speaker 2: me thinking. By the time, by the time she was
Speaker 2: done with the script, I realized that there was I
Speaker 2: did have a story and I did have a book.
Speaker 2: She eventually finished the film, and it's a short film
Speaker 2: sixteen minutes called Carl Very Original, and I went on
Speaker 2: to win a few awards. She won the New York
Speaker 2: Women's Film Award, TV Emerging Female Filmmaker Award, and she
Speaker 2: won a student grant from the National Boarder Review. I
Speaker 2: was also in the movie as a detective Blues, who
Speaker 2: is obviously a real character, so that was kind of
Speaker 2: cool to get my face on camera.
Speaker 4: Yes, you said too that this book was this. You know,
Speaker 4: this is an incredible book project to endeavor to do,
Speaker 4: and it was a little more difficult than even might
Speaker 4: have thought. Tell us about the help you got from
Speaker 4: author Brian Whitney.
Speaker 2: Sure, so, yeah, the book was difficult for me to
Speaker 2: write on a few levels. First off, me and I
Speaker 2: never wrote a book before, and I took a few
Speaker 2: writing classes that my daughter signed me up for, and
Speaker 2: I wrote a little bit and I said, oh, this
Speaker 2: is this is cool. I can do this. And when
Speaker 2: I when I started writing the book, I was lost.
Speaker 2: So yeah, So a mutual mutual friend who actually published
Speaker 2: a book told me about Brian, and I contacted Brian
Speaker 2: Whitney and told him my story, and we met and
Speaker 2: we hit it off and we became writing partners. And
Speaker 2: the process basically was, you know, I would I would
Speaker 2: do the best I could. I'd write five, six, seven,
Speaker 2: ten pages and send it to Brian, and Brian would,
Speaker 2: you know, smooth everything out and you know, make my
Speaker 2: ten pages into twenty or thirty pages. And this process
Speaker 2: took close to a year, mostly because of me, not
Speaker 2: because of Brian.
Speaker 4: Right now, with this as well, what's very important about
Speaker 4: this is a book by Maury Terry who becomes a friend,
Speaker 4: and we'll be talking about extensively about Mary Terry's influence
Speaker 4: in this and your friendship and the investigation that you
Speaker 4: both undertook to find out the truth that now has
Speaker 4: come to light in this book Son of Sam and me.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about what you're not trying to sell us
Speaker 4: on in this book, but also what was uncovered when
Speaker 4: you read Maury Terry's book The Ultimate Evil.
Speaker 2: Okay, So that breaks me to another difficult part of
Speaker 2: writing this book. As I started writing, I realized that
Speaker 2: I wanted to tell my story and how it affected
Speaker 2: my life over the last forty five years. And I
Speaker 2: realized very quickly that I can't do that without explaining
Speaker 2: the Son of Sam shootings. So I started writing about
Speaker 2: each shooting, and halfway through, I said, I don't want
Speaker 2: to rewrite The Ultimate Evil. That's not my goal. So
Speaker 2: that became very difficult, not you know, I mean, obviously
Speaker 2: it's the same case, so a lot of the same
Speaker 2: information is there. But I really wanted to write, you know,
Speaker 2: the story from my viewpoint. I also wanted to bring
Speaker 2: forward to the general public the conspiracy theory which has
Speaker 2: been I don't want to say, debunked, but it's been
Speaker 2: poopooed by the press and by the police for since
Speaker 2: Mary Terry's book came out in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 4: Right now, you talk about the official story, and people
Speaker 4: that followed this case know that there was an official
Speaker 4: story early on about a dog. We've referenced in the introduction.
Speaker 4: There was the official story when you were were attacked
Speaker 4: and afterwards, what was the official story that you heard
Speaker 4: following that before they made any kind of connection to
Speaker 4: this forty four caliber killer?
Speaker 2: Is sure the original story I was the second It
Speaker 2: turned out I was a second victim shop by son
Speaker 2: of Sam, but there was no son of Sam at
Speaker 2: the time, so it appeared to the police that was
Speaker 2: a random shooting. And the fact that I, you know,
Speaker 2: I smoked pot, I had long hair, and the girl
Speaker 2: I was with her father was a detective and he
Speaker 2: was assigned to my case. So his immediate his immediate
Speaker 2: reaction was it took a drug deal gone wrong, and
Speaker 2: that certainly was not the case. But I didn't know
Speaker 2: who shot me, so I really didn't have much defense.
Speaker 2: That went on for six months from October twenty third,
Speaker 2: the day I was shot, until March tenth, nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 2: when Police Commissioner Cod and the mayor Mayor A Beam
Speaker 2: had a press conference and said, we have a serial
Speaker 2: killer and we were able to link five random shootings
Speaker 2: to this serial killer. So for six months I was,
Speaker 2: you know, on the charts when the police department as
Speaker 2: you know, a drug dealer.
Speaker 4: Let's let's get to your Let's get to your particular case,
Speaker 4: because there's no way anybody can imagine how you would
Speaker 4: be depicted as a or this case is a drug
Speaker 4: deal gone bad. I laugh at that hilarious depiction all
Speaker 4: the time. Drug deal gone bad sounds like everything was
Speaker 4: done in Mexico with hotel or something, you know. So
Speaker 4: let's let's talk about yourself. This is this is incredible.
Speaker 4: This is the last night before you left to join
Speaker 4: the air Force. So tell us about this air force
Speaker 4: and who you were. You had, you were long haired,
Speaker 4: you talk about smoking pot. Tell our audience who you
Speaker 4: were at this time in nineteen seventy six and this night,
Speaker 4: particularly October twenty second, nineteen seventy six. Who were you
Speaker 4: and what were you doing and how did you up
Speaker 4: meeting with Rosemary Keenan who his father just happened to
Speaker 4: be a detective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know, I was twenty years old, I said,
Speaker 2: long hair, you know, finel Sharts jeans. You know, I guess,
Speaker 2: the last of the hippies from the sixties. And you know,
Speaker 2: I had dropped out of college at you know, a
Speaker 2: few mineral jobs that I didn't really I said, there's
Speaker 2: no you know, there's no future here, and I decided
Speaker 2: to join the Air Force. So I joined. I enlisted
Speaker 2: in the Air Force, and they gave me what they
Speaker 2: call a deferred reporting date. So they gave me I
Speaker 2: was sworn in in August of seventy six, and my
Speaker 2: report date was October twenty eighth of seventy six. And
Speaker 2: unfortunately for me in the Air Force, I was shot
Speaker 2: on the twenty third, five days before I was to
Speaker 2: report to basic training.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: So as far as the night, the night of the
Speaker 2: the the event, I was just hanging out with my friends.
Speaker 2: We went to a party and it wasn't really that good.
Speaker 2: So we went back to the bar Pex bar and
Speaker 2: grill that we hung out at and ran into Rosemary,
Speaker 2: who had known from from college. We had you know,
Speaker 2: we we've gone out on a few dates but we
Speaker 2: certainly weren't dating. But uh, yeah, we you know, we
Speaker 2: hung out for a little bit at the bar, had
Speaker 2: a few drinks, and then we decided to leave in
Speaker 2: h in her Volkswagen, and you know, we you know,
Speaker 2: we drove around the neighborhood. It was my neighborhood, not hers,
Speaker 2: and with no particular place in mind. Unlike some of
Speaker 2: the reports that you might have heard, this was not
Speaker 2: a you know, a lover's lane type thing. It was
Speaker 2: it actually four of my friends lived on that block.
Speaker 2: It you know, it just we just wound up there
Speaker 2: and we were there for maybe I don't know, three
Speaker 2: four or five minutes, and the next thing, I know,
Speaker 2: the all the all the class in the car exploded,
Speaker 2: and uh and I knew we were in trouble. And
Speaker 2: so it's a very surrealistic feeling because I did not
Speaker 2: know that I was shot, but I knew we were
Speaker 2: in trouble. And you know, I yelled at Rosemary to
Speaker 2: start the car up, and and she did and and
Speaker 2: I passed out for ten fifteen seconds and she was
Speaker 2: when I when I came to, she was in a
Speaker 2: tizzy because she had no idea where she was. So
Speaker 2: I directed her back to the bar and got out
Speaker 2: of the car, walked in and uh uh, this is
Speaker 2: all this is all crazy, because you know, I have
Speaker 2: I have a bull wounded in the back of my head.
Speaker 2: I have no idea how I possibly could have gotten
Speaker 2: out of the car and walked into the bar, but
Speaker 2: I did. And uh yeah, And when I walked in,
Speaker 2: the guy at the door said, you know, look good,
Speaker 2: and I said, I don't feel good. I think the
Speaker 2: car exploded. And with that my head went down and
Speaker 2: my warm hair was holding all this blood and I
Speaker 2: you know, at the time, I just had blood on
Speaker 2: my arms and from the class shorts. And when everyone
Speaker 2: in the bar saw that, and it's like, well, you know,
Speaker 2: we got to get him to the hospital. So we
Speaker 2: a friend of mine drove me to a Flushing, Flushing
Speaker 2: hospital and they took care of me there in the
Speaker 2: emergency room.
Speaker 4: You talk about that we didn't mention is that for
Speaker 4: some reason you were paranoid. And but you know, Jesus said,
Speaker 4: seventy six, you threw this bag of weed out the window.
Speaker 4: And this will be important a little bit later. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 4: it'll be important later when you when you get too
Speaker 4: honest for your own good. So now you're you're you're.
Speaker 4: Now you're at the hospital here, put you on a gurney,
Speaker 4: taking an examiner, so they realize that the extent of
Speaker 4: your injury you still don't know. But you say too
Speaker 4: that you never heard a gunshot. You just realize the
Speaker 4: glass exploded, so you never really heard it. You never
Speaker 4: heard a gunshot previous to that. This Marlon Hopkins is
Speaker 4: a homicide detective from NYPD. He comes to investigate, but
Speaker 4: then when they find out you're not dead, he takes
Speaker 4: off apparently. And and because the doctors say you're going
Speaker 4: to be stabilizing, you're going to make it through. So
Speaker 4: now what happens in terms of the police investigating this.
Speaker 4: You talked about when I'm a little while ago about
Speaker 4: how they thought it was a drug deal gone bad.
Speaker 4: So now we at least we know the audience knows
Speaker 4: that you threw this bag of weed out. But yes,
Speaker 4: why on earth would they think this is a drug
Speaker 4: deal gone bad? Where do they get that idea?
Speaker 2: Well, they got him from me. Unfortunately, the next day
Speaker 2: or actually later in the morning, Detective Keenan, Rosemary's dad
Speaker 2: and Detective Blues, his partner, came to my room and said,
Speaker 2: you know what happened. I said, I don't know. And
Speaker 2: he said where did it happen. I said one hundred
Speaker 2: and sixtieth Street and thirty third Avenue. So they they left,
Speaker 2: and they came back about an hour later and threatened
Speaker 2: to arrest me if I didn't tell him the truth.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said, well,
Speaker 2: we went from one sixtieth Street to one seventy second
Speaker 2: Street and we didn't find any you know, any glass
Speaker 2: or anything. So when they said that, it dawned to me.
Speaker 2: I said, oh, it was one hundred and fifty ninth Street,
Speaker 2: not one hundred and six sixtieth Street. And they looked
Speaker 2: at each other and because basically, you know, they went
Speaker 2: twelve blocks in one direction, didn't think to go one
Speaker 2: block the other direction. And as a parting shot, because
Speaker 2: that's my nature, I said, and by the way, I
Speaker 2: threw a bag of weed out so you might find that, so, which,
Speaker 2: like I said later on, that probably was the smartest
Speaker 2: thing to say. But that's how they found out about
Speaker 2: the weed. And by the way, they never found the weed.
Speaker 4: Someone did, Yeah, somebody did. Yests now, now, Detective Keenan
Speaker 4: now you you say that you already knew him, you
Speaker 4: recognized him, you knew who he was. So he wasn't
Speaker 4: too happy that his ardor was involved in this situation,
Speaker 4: especially not knowing from where it came from. So he
Speaker 4: assumed that it had some kind of drug relation or
Speaker 4: he was just looking at you. So how do they
Speaker 4: proceed with this investigation in terms and your participation and
Speaker 4: what you find out about this supposed forty four caliber.
Speaker 2: Killer as well? You know, basically there is one more meeting.
Speaker 2: When I'm I was in the hospital for three weeks,
Speaker 2: and they came back to my mom's house where I
Speaker 2: was living, and handed me a list of I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe seventy five one hundred names, and it was basically
Speaker 2: a list of people who had been arrested in my neighborhood.
Speaker 2: And I did recognize a lot of the names. Most
Speaker 2: of them were like ridiculous, you know, stolen bike, public intoxication,
Speaker 2: a vagaweed, you know, nothing major. And I couldn't believe
Speaker 2: that somebody I knew would shoot me. I just didn't
Speaker 2: we First of all, I didn't live in that kind
Speaker 2: of neighborhood. It was basically an upper middle class neighborhood
Speaker 2: that didn't really have any violence, you know, so I
Speaker 2: I said, I don't think it's anyone on here. And
Speaker 2: of course there was names and there I had no
Speaker 2: idea who they were. And that I mean that that
Speaker 2: was pretty much the end of that story. And to
Speaker 2: add on to that, that was pretty much the That
Speaker 2: was pretty much the blessed interaction I had personally with
Speaker 2: the NYPD in this case, which you know, it didn't
Speaker 2: really bother me back then, but it you know, in
Speaker 2: the ensuing years, it kind of puzzled me because when
Speaker 2: they arrested Barker Wood, for example, uh, my sister got
Speaker 2: a phone call from a reporter saying that they arrested
Speaker 2: the son of Sam and it's this guy called David
Speaker 2: Berkowitz and she's you know, and my sister didn't live,
Speaker 2: you know, she had her own apartment, so she called
Speaker 2: my mom's house at two in the morning. And I,
Speaker 2: you know, in retrospect, I think it's kind of strange
Speaker 2: that I didn't get an official call from somebody in
Speaker 2: the police department saying, you know, rest easy, we caught
Speaker 2: the guy that you know, we caught the guy to shatcha.
Speaker 4: Now you survived but this it wasn't without some complications. Here, Uh,
Speaker 4: just tell us about what they had to do two
Speaker 4: before you were released from the hospital and we're out
Speaker 4: of danger, per se.
Speaker 2: Sure, well they yeah, it was uh you know, of
Speaker 2: course it's seventy six, so the you know, medicine is
Speaker 2: a little bit better today than it was then. But
Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, with a head injury, there
Speaker 2: was there was no painkillers to be had. It was
Speaker 2: tiling oil, which really believed me. It really didn't help,
Speaker 2: you know, did. I developed like a little bit of
Speaker 2: a nervous text shaking my you know, my leg up
Speaker 2: and down, and I was in I was in pretty
Speaker 2: bad pain for I'd say about you know, a week,
Speaker 2: five days, seven days, and then they they had to
Speaker 2: come in about a week into my hospital's stay. They
Speaker 2: the nurse and the doctor would come in like every
Speaker 2: other day with this huge needle and draw a fluid
Speaker 2: from the back of my skull that was building up
Speaker 2: around my brain. And that that was almost as painful
Speaker 2: as being shot, I could tell you that. And uh yeah,
Speaker 2: so you know I wound up staying in the hospital
Speaker 2: for three three weeks and then I was released with
Speaker 2: the instructions that I have to stay in the house.
Speaker 2: I can't go out because there's only a thin piece
Speaker 2: of skin protecting my brain because the bullet put a
Speaker 2: hole about a size fifty cent piece in the back
Speaker 2: of my head. And then they told me in January,
Speaker 2: actually January twentieth, once a swelling had gone down, they
Speaker 2: would insert a plate to cover the hole that the
Speaker 2: bullet made. So that was, yeah, that was a long
Speaker 2: three months.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about then you write about July twenty ninth,
Speaker 4: the attack before yours, because you guys were second, You
Speaker 4: and Rosemary were second. But this is July twenty ninth,
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy six. Donal Lorie, she's eighteen years old, their
Speaker 4: friend Jody Valenti, and they're at a disco and so
Speaker 4: a man approaches them. He pulls out a gun from
Speaker 4: a bag, approaches down and shoots donn and she's instantly dead,
Speaker 4: and Valenti is shot in a thigh and she survives.
Speaker 4: What is the description of that perpetrator at that time,
Speaker 4: July twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2: Well, the description of a shooter pretty much, as it
Speaker 2: turned out, pretty much described David Barkowitz. They did have
Speaker 2: a suspect, Donna's ex boyfriend who just I know this
Speaker 2: is bizarre, but he just happened to own a forty
Speaker 2: four caliper gun and they had broken up. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they had broken up. I'm not sure if it's a
Speaker 2: few weeks or a few months, but they had broken
Speaker 2: up and he was prime suspect. And he kind of
Speaker 2: is very strange. He he came in and out of
Speaker 2: the news very quick. He never heard of him again.
Speaker 2: You know, they exonerated him. I guess he had an
Speaker 2: albi whatever. But Uh, I always wondered, you know, later
Speaker 2: on when they tied shootings together to a forty four,
Speaker 2: what didn't go back to uh to her ex boyfriend
Speaker 2: to question him again, And to be honest, they might have,
Speaker 2: but I'm not I'm not aware of it.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know there was there was some other uh,
Speaker 2: you know, the description of from uh from Jody, Uh,
Speaker 2: like I said, pretty much matched David Barkowitz. And of course, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, years later he admitted that is one of
Speaker 2: the shootings that he that he did.
Speaker 4: Were there you were the second I just mentioned. You
Speaker 4: were the second group of victims. You and Rosemary where
Speaker 4: their witnesses to your attack, and what was that notion of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's it's kind of it's kind of funny that I,
Speaker 2: you know, of all the victims that survived, I'm the
Speaker 2: only one that has, you know, pursued this case. And
Speaker 2: there's the least amount of information on my case. So
Speaker 2: now there was no there was you know, it was
Speaker 2: it was no no eye witnesses. It was two o'clock
Speaker 2: in the morning in a very residential neighborhood. I'm sure
Speaker 2: I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure somebody
Speaker 2: was woken up by gunshot wounds. But I said, we, uh,
Speaker 2: Rosemary pulled the car away fast. I think by the
Speaker 2: time someone got out of bed and went to the
Speaker 2: window or you know, the Volkswagen, Rosemary'svolkswagen was probably gone already.
Speaker 4: After your shooting. There's Donna Dimassi sixteen year old, th
Speaker 4: Joanne Lomino eighteen, and Queen's November twenty sixth, nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 4: The description is men in twenties who asked for directions
Speaker 4: and pull out the gun and fired. A blonde man
Speaker 4: ran with the gun. So even by that third set,
Speaker 4: we're already seeing these contradictory composites and descriptions, aren't.
Speaker 2: We oh without a doubt, and that shooting actually did
Speaker 2: have some of my witnesses. Obviously bald girls survived, although
Speaker 2: you know one was paralyzed, but they were both able
Speaker 2: to give police a description. And it was also two
Speaker 2: neighbors I believe one was outside and on the sidewalk
Speaker 2: and saw the guy, this guy run with something in
Speaker 2: his left hand. He thought it was a gun, but
Speaker 2: he couldn't be sure. And then with somebody else that
Speaker 2: looked out the window, and all four people, all four
Speaker 2: witnesses basically described the same person. The only difference was
Speaker 2: the part was on the left or the part was
Speaker 2: on the right. But the police sketches that they produced
Speaker 2: from these four witnesses are basically the same picture, except
Speaker 2: you know, for a left or right part.
Speaker 4: And you say they the MASSI recovers and unfortunately Lomino
Speaker 4: as a paraplegic. And then on January thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 4: Christine Freund and her fiancee John Diel, and this is
Speaker 4: in Queens, they didn't see their attacker. May eighteenth, seventy seven,
Speaker 4: Virginia Vaskarischian a nineteen shot in the face. And then
Speaker 4: you say, at that time, the city is in a
Speaker 4: state of panic by this time, aren't they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was, uh yeah, it's you know, like
Speaker 2: I said, there was no sun to sam. But when
Speaker 2: they the police put together and announced it's a serial killer,
Speaker 2: and uh, basically all hell broke less mm hmm.
Speaker 4: And and early on you were made to believe, or
Speaker 4: you believe somehow that because you had long hair, tell
Speaker 4: us what you think why you were shot?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I guess, you know, later later in
Speaker 2: in you know, in that year, it kind of came
Speaker 2: they said, well, you know, it's mostly brown, you know,
Speaker 2: girls with long brown hair. And I did have long
Speaker 2: brown hair, and I was in a passenger seat, so
Speaker 2: you know, it was pretty I don't know, pretty much
Speaker 2: everyone agreed I was probably shot being mistaken for a female.
Speaker 4: Now you include, of course, about the next layer of this,
Speaker 4: or the next twist to this incredible story is when
Speaker 4: the forty four caliber killer writes a letter to the
Speaker 4: New York Daily News reporter Jimmy Breslin and with the
Speaker 4: taunting message and the blood and family, darkness and death,
Speaker 4: absolute depravity, forty four Hello from the gutters of New York.
Speaker 4: People are familiar with that, and he provides the names,
Speaker 4: I guess, a variety of names. Duke of Death, the
Speaker 4: Wicked King, Wicker, the twenty two Disciples of Hell, which
Speaker 4: we will be exploring, John Wheaty's rapist and suffocator of
Speaker 4: young girls. So through all of this, and eventually people
Speaker 4: know the story of the parking ticket and the woman
Speaker 4: that observes Berkowitz, and so the unraveling, and then he's arrested.
Speaker 4: And now when that arrest, obviously tell us how you feel.
Speaker 4: But then how long is it before how many years
Speaker 4: or how long is it before you hear or tell
Speaker 4: us about how you hear about some alternate story to
Speaker 4: the one that Berkowitz and the media especially has put out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just just to be clear when this happened,
Speaker 2: when the shootings happened, I was getting my information except
Speaker 2: for the two visits from the NYPD detectives. I was
Speaker 2: getting all my information, like everyone else, from the newspapers.
Speaker 2: I had no reason to believe anything else was going on.
Speaker 2: How would I know the story of you know, thinking
Speaker 2: there might be other people involved was a very slow
Speaker 2: evolving story, and the first incident was January nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: when I went with my lawyer for a civil case
Speaker 2: against against David Barkowitz, and basically we were there to
Speaker 2: all the victims and lawyers were there to determine what
Speaker 2: percentage each person would get based on their injury. And
Speaker 2: of course the money they were talking about was just
Speaker 2: in case a movie was made or a book was written.
Speaker 2: By this lawyer, Harry Lipzig, who was now deceased, but
Speaker 2: he was pretty famous lawyer in New York City. He
Speaker 2: kept yelling at the judge. He said, there's other people involved.
Speaker 2: And I had no idea what he was talking about.
Speaker 2: So I asked my lawyer and he said, ah, he goes.
Speaker 2: You know, Harry thinks there was a parrasee and there
Speaker 2: was other shooters. I'm like, oh, really, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: So that was in nineteen eighty long about nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: ninety one, I met retired New York City ballistics detective.
Speaker 2: Actually I'm jumping ahead. The next step in this is
Speaker 2: reading Marey Terry's book in nineteen eighty seven, where you
Speaker 2: know where Morey lays out this conspiracy. You know that
Speaker 2: other people were involved, and as you mentioned earlier, twenty
Speaker 2: two disciples of Hell. So of course I was fascinated
Speaker 2: and I'm like wow, and I thought about, like, you know,
Speaker 2: the court in nineteen eighty. I'm like, well, maybe there
Speaker 2: is something to this. The third piece was was when
Speaker 2: I met the retired ballistics detective and he told me
Speaker 2: flat out that he worked on my case and he
Speaker 2: in the report he wrote that either a woman or
Speaker 2: a ninety pound weakling that fired the shots. He also
Speaker 2: told me that the file on my ballistics file is
Speaker 2: no longer where it should be and to this day
Speaker 2: it's lost forever. So there was three pieces of information
Speaker 2: that that led me to this, And of course the
Speaker 2: last and final piece to convince me was a TV
Speaker 2: interview that Maury Terry did with David Parkowitz, and he
Speaker 2: actually says, you know, did you shoe Carl Denaro and
Speaker 2: Barker Wood says no, do you know who did? Yes?
Speaker 2: And you know what? It was a female? Anybody wouldn't
Speaker 2: give her name. So those four pieces of information, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of sealed it from me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, certainly, let's use this as an opportunity to stop
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Speaker 4: box at www dot fabfitfund dot com. Now, Carl, we
Speaker 4: were just talking about this incredible moment when you realize
Speaker 4: there is much more to the story, and that's an
Speaker 4: incredible understatement. So how is it that you hook up
Speaker 4: with Maury Terry?
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I guess said, I read. I read Mary's book.
Speaker 2: I didn't know him. I watched him on TV on
Speaker 2: the Inside Edition and his jail house interviews with Barker Woods,
Speaker 2: and eventually I got a call from Heraudo Rivera to
Speaker 2: be a guest on his show and at the time,
Speaker 2: I worked in Manhattan, and they asked me, would you
Speaker 2: mind going up to fifty seventh Street and going to
Speaker 2: this restaurant called Kennedy's. Uh, and we'll have a call
Speaker 2: waiting for you. You you and Maury Terry. So I
Speaker 2: went to Kennedy's. I was introduced to introduced to Maury
Speaker 2: by the bartender and we decided to forego dinner and
Speaker 2: decided to have a few drinks at the bar and
Speaker 2: talk about the son of Sam. By the time an
Speaker 2: hour later, by the time the limo right, we were
Speaker 2: we were like best friends. And and that that was
Speaker 2: the beginning of my relationship with with Maury.
Speaker 4: Incredible from the information and Maury Terry managers obviously to
Speaker 4: speak to Berkowitz. So what do you find out early
Speaker 4: on in terms of this different narrative about who shot
Speaker 4: who and what is all involved here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know, by the time I met Maury,
Speaker 2: you know, and you know, in these these different facts
Speaker 2: that I have found over the years proving to me
Speaker 2: that more than one person was involved, you know that
Speaker 2: that was just like the springboard to to continue, you know,
Speaker 2: continue investigating. Now, up to this point, I wasn't investigating anything.
Speaker 2: The Internet was relatively new, and uh, believe it or not,
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety four, there really wasn't that much that
Speaker 2: you could google, but there was stuff there, and obviously
Speaker 2: there's a lot more now. Maury was you know, old
Speaker 2: school and you know, old school investigative reporter. And you know,
Speaker 2: he had a typewriter, you know, an IBM S electric
Speaker 2: and he typed away and and he had sources and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, he would go to Kennedy's and you know
Speaker 2: talk you know, police officials and what have you. So
Speaker 2: I was, uh, because of my work, I I was
Speaker 2: familiar with the Internet, and I had a computer at home,
Speaker 2: and I offered to help him because I was shocked
Speaker 2: that he was able to put this book together and
Speaker 2: do all his research with no Internet. So so he
Speaker 2: started feeding me. He didn't even have a cell phone
Speaker 2: just by the way. Uh, he started feeding me to
Speaker 2: phone calls like names or addresses and says, you know,
Speaker 2: look this up, said you know, but he wouldn't really
Speaker 2: tell me what I was looking up, and would just
Speaker 2: be look up Joe Blow and tell me what you
Speaker 2: can find about him. So I said, you know, it's
Speaker 2: a million Joe blows. You got to be more specific.
Speaker 2: He goes, well, Joe Blow and City Island. All right,
Speaker 2: that's that's better. And it was kind of fun, I'll
Speaker 2: be honest with you. And I got to the point
Speaker 2: where I became pretty good at it. As for Maury anyway,
Speaker 2: And uh, and that's and I continued doing that for Maury.
Speaker 2: I'm sure he had all the people helping him out,
Speaker 2: but I continued doing research internet research form until pretty
Speaker 2: much of the day he died in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 4: In this investigation that he undertook and you undertook and
Speaker 4: furthered as well. What we have mentioned twenty two disciples.
Speaker 4: But what is it that Berkowitz had said, and what
Speaker 4: is it that in your investigation you tried to corroborate
Speaker 4: and you said that in the introduction and throughout you
Speaker 4: talk about officially people will say on the record, but
Speaker 4: off the record, you have spoken to many law enforcement
Speaker 4: people who have said and supported the ideas that not
Speaker 4: only Mary Terry espoused in his book The Ultimate Evil,
Speaker 4: but supporting the ideas and the suspicions that you had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, that's very true. True. Of course,
Speaker 2: you know that, I guess the two biggest spokes uh
Speaker 2: spokespeople for for law enforcement in this case was Joe Borelli,
Speaker 2: who was the captain who actually the first letter that
Speaker 2: was the first time the SAM letter was actually addressed
Speaker 2: to Joe Burrelli and the other the other person was Goffy.
Speaker 2: Joe Joe was, Joe was you know, he was quite
Speaker 2: a character, and he liked he liked to be on
Speaker 2: TV and you know, and he he was really like
Speaker 2: the mouthpiece and he just told the line that you
Speaker 2: know more Tarry's you know, crazy and anyone who believes
Speaker 2: in conspiracy is you know, is crazy. And and we
Speaker 2: got our man, and that's the end of the story. Joe.
Speaker 2: If you approach him, Joe Burrelli, he will he will
Speaker 2: basically tell you the same thing. But he uh, he
Speaker 2: kind of kept uh, you know, a little profile, so
Speaker 2: you know, you know, I would go on shows like
Speaker 2: in the mid nineties and they would have me explaining
Speaker 2: my story. Sometimes Maury would be with me explaining the
Speaker 2: same thing much more eloquently than I, and then they'd
Speaker 2: have Joe Coffee on. I need these two guys and morons,
Speaker 2: and I got it got to the point where I said,
Speaker 2: I'll never do another interview. If Joe Coffey is involved,
Speaker 2: because he is the guy, you know, he's a victim,
Speaker 2: everyone feels bad. But he openly admits he didn't see anything.
Speaker 2: And is Joe Coffee a highly decorated NYPD detective, who
Speaker 2: are you going to believe? And so, you know, every
Speaker 2: time we took a step forward, Joe Coffee would come
Speaker 2: on TV and take us two steps back and was
Speaker 2: extremely frustrating. Yeah so what yeah?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 2: And and I get it. You know, I don't want
Speaker 2: people to think I'm a cop fasher because I'm not.
Speaker 2: And I actually met Marlin Hopkins a couple of like
Speaker 2: five years ago, and I told him, I said, you know,
Speaker 2: you did your job. He was you know, I said,
Speaker 2: you your job is to arrest you know, the suspect,
Speaker 2: and you did what my beef is you know, five years,
Speaker 2: six years, ten years at you know, I'm sorry I
Speaker 2: turned this off, you know, ten ten years when all
Speaker 2: this new information came out, did the NYPD didn't reopen
Speaker 2: the case and investigate It's crazy, it might sound to
Speaker 2: Joe Coffee. Investigate all these facts that that Maury and
Speaker 2: other people have brought forward. Did I mean it wasn't
Speaker 2: I think it was nineteen seventy nine, ten eighty that
Speaker 2: the Queen's DA, John Santucci, actually reopened the case based
Speaker 2: on additional information. Unfortunately, was shut down six weeks later.
Speaker 2: I'm told, I'm told that it was shut down by
Speaker 2: the Mayor's office. That I'm not, you know, that's just
Speaker 2: what I heard. I don't know how true that is,
Speaker 2: but it did get shut down real quick. And John
Speaker 2: Santucci's on record saying, you know, I believe that David Barker,
Speaker 2: which did not act alone, you know, So it's kind
Speaker 2: of it's kind of incredible that that a DA would
Speaker 2: say that, and and then thirty years later, no one,
Speaker 2: you know, it still hasn't looked at at the information.
Speaker 4: Well, to be fair, and I mean, I'm not to
Speaker 4: be fair, but to understand, I think to it, the
Speaker 4: killing seemingly stopped, and officially in people's minds, and you
Speaker 4: just probably disagree with that, but officially it looked like
Speaker 4: they stopped, and Berkowitz had seemingly confessed, and there was
Speaker 4: a lot of pressure on police and politicians, and this
Speaker 4: guy had, you know, son of Sam entity, had paralyzed
Speaker 4: the city.
Speaker 2: Yes, without a doubt, And I actually cut myself off
Speaker 2: because I wanted to continue my thought about the law enforcement.
Speaker 2: They were in a really bad position, you know. I
Speaker 2: mean that serial killers were relatively a new phenomena. They
Speaker 2: had very little to go on. I think they did
Speaker 2: their best, you know, I have I have no qualms
Speaker 2: with that. I do. I do have a little bit
Speaker 2: of a as I've said, a little bit of a
Speaker 2: qualm of you know, when you're given new information, you
Speaker 2: don't follow up on it. But with that being said,
Speaker 2: you know, David barker Wood was no help either, because
Speaker 2: he changed his story from saying I did everything. It
Speaker 2: was a talking dog too. There is no talking dog,
Speaker 2: but there is a satanic cult. Two I did somebody.
Speaker 2: I did two of the killings, but I didn't, you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't do the other. But I was there at
Speaker 2: all of them, you know. So he kind of muddied
Speaker 2: the waters, which I'm assuming he did that by by design,
Speaker 2: you know. So it didn't help our case, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: And as far as the shooting, the shooting stopping that
Speaker 2: I always find that interesting, and you know, because that's
Speaker 2: I get that a lot. You know, Well, how can
Speaker 2: you say that the shooting stopped well, think about it
Speaker 2: if regardless if it's one person or five people using
Speaker 2: the same gun or five different guns, that are all
Speaker 2: the you know, similar, If they arrest a guy and
Speaker 2: he's in jail for four hundred and fifty years, why
Speaker 2: in God's name once you picked up another forty four
Speaker 2: caliber and choose somebody, because now you just got the
Speaker 2: police back on your tale. So you know, but the
Speaker 2: killings did continue, They just use different different ways of
Speaker 2: getting rid of people.
Speaker 4: Will you explain in this as well? Because Berkowitz you know,
Speaker 4: tells people about and Mary Terry and in interviews that
Speaker 4: he explains the Satanic cult. So I'll get you to
Speaker 4: explain what he says about the Satanic cult and what
Speaker 4: his role was in that cult, and what happened that
Speaker 4: particular day involving the parking ticket, and what Berkowitz said
Speaker 4: about this Untermeyer park and its rule.
Speaker 2: Right. So that's that's a that's a lot to unpack,
Speaker 2: but I will do my best. You know, the day
Speaker 2: of the last shooting, the uh Stacey moscow Witz Robert
Speaker 2: Violante shooting, as we all know, Berklewitz don't know, ten
Speaker 2: minutes a half hour twenty minutes before the shots were fired,
Speaker 2: got a parking ticket in front of a fire hydrant.
Speaker 2: At that point is supposedly he tried to call the
Speaker 2: whole thing off and he was like out voted, and
Speaker 2: because of the parking ticket, he became he became the
Speaker 2: the fall guy. I think, I'm this is this is
Speaker 2: an assumption on my park, but I I get a
Speaker 2: feeling that John Carr was the originally the fall guy.
Speaker 2: And and the reason I say that his uh, the
Speaker 2: letter that you mentioned earlier were where the writer wrote
Speaker 2: John John Wheaty's uh you know, rapist and suffocator of
Speaker 2: young girls. Well, his his name, he was nicknamed Wheatie's.
Speaker 2: And I believe it's because his dad owned answering service
Speaker 2: and his sister whose name is wheat Uh, the dad
Speaker 2: gave him one line to share. So in the directory,
Speaker 2: you know, back in the days when we had phone books, Uh,
Speaker 2: it said John wheat and I and again this is
Speaker 2: an assumption on my part, I get a feeling his buddies
Speaker 2: kind of like made fun of him, Uh you know
Speaker 2: John wheat that you know, that's a girl's name, you know,
Speaker 2: And and it kind of became his nickname, John Wheaty.
Speaker 2: S he was well known in uh in Yonkers as
Speaker 2: John Wheaty's so that that's my assumption that he was
Speaker 2: the original fall guy. But you know, that's the only
Speaker 2: explanation I can think of why his name would be
Speaker 2: in that letter.
Speaker 4: But now in your particular case, you mentioned and without explanation,
Speaker 4: So I'm going to ask for that explanation. When you
Speaker 4: talk to that detective and he said the person that
Speaker 4: shot you was either a woman or a ninety pound weekling,
Speaker 4: Now why did he say that? And then what did
Speaker 4: you find in terms of what Berkowitz had said about
Speaker 4: who shot you?
Speaker 2: Right? So you know I didn't really I didn't really
Speaker 2: follow up correctly when the detective told me that because
Speaker 2: because I know nothing about ballistics. But I should have
Speaker 2: asked the question, well, how did you determine that? Because
Speaker 2: a lot of law enforce from people I've spoken to, says,
Speaker 2: but what does that mean? That? That doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: You know, you can't tell from ballistics you know who
Speaker 2: fired the gun? And so I I you know, unfortunately
Speaker 2: this this this fellow passed away, so I can't ask him.
Speaker 2: But I have talked to other ballistics experts and uh,
Speaker 2: their their assumption is the fact that I'm still alive,
Speaker 2: is uh? He draw that he drew that conclusion because
Speaker 2: of the wildness of the shooting and and the you know,
Speaker 2: the the recoil of a forty four caliber. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know. And if you look at the other shootings,
Speaker 2: uh uh, some of them are I you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know what's the correct way to say, but they're
Speaker 2: you know, whoever pulled the trigger killed people and there
Speaker 2: was no if, vans or butts about it. And other
Speaker 2: shootings were like mine. Thankfully, we're just not that accurate.
Speaker 4: Mm hm. And so what did you find in terms
Speaker 4: of what Berkowitz said who shot you? Just to again
Speaker 4: eerily support what this detective had assumed.
Speaker 2: Right, So you know, you know, a couple of years
Speaker 2: after I found this information out from the blissics expert,
Speaker 2: I see Barkowitz on TV saying that a woman shot
Speaker 2: shot Carl de Naro. So at the time, Maury, Maury
Speaker 2: was communicating with Barkowitz on a regular basis, you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes through phone calls, but mostly snail mail. And it
Speaker 2: was very long and tedious because you know, Maury dried
Speaker 2: the three page letter and mail it and he might
Speaker 2: not get a response for three or four months. So
Speaker 2: this went on for years. I started communication adding what
Speaker 2: Barker wits not too long ago with with that question,
Speaker 2: and you know, unfortunately he has not told me. But
Speaker 2: I do hold out hope that I am going to
Speaker 2: get an answer. But what we shall see about that.
Speaker 4: Tell our audience about this conspiracy, what these what Berkowitz
Speaker 4: and what Maury Terry believed, well, not what Berkowitz believed,
Speaker 4: what Morey Terry believed. What you believe based on what
Speaker 4: Berkowitz had said and the investigation that you undertook. What
Speaker 4: is this cult and what was its goal? Who are
Speaker 4: some of the members?
Speaker 2: You?
Speaker 4: You there are names in this book. There are studios, pseudonyms,
Speaker 4: but there are names in this book. Tell us what
Speaker 4: this cult was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a really really good question. And
Speaker 2: I will give you the best answer I have, which
Speaker 2: is in my opinion, not a complete answer. But to
Speaker 2: answer the question, I have to go back to mention
Speaker 2: retired detective Jim Rothstein.
Speaker 4: He was.
Speaker 2: He was in charge of UH dealing with the runaways
Speaker 2: that that was rampant on forty second Street in Manhattan,
Speaker 2: and UH they actually called it the Minnesota Strip because
Speaker 2: a lot of the young people, mostly girls but boys too,
Speaker 2: you know, would hop on a bus and go to
Speaker 2: port authority and the pimps would, uh, you know, would
Speaker 2: prey on them. And basically, you know a lot of
Speaker 2: them came came to New York with you know, five
Speaker 2: dollars in her pocket and a knapsack and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the pimps would you know, give give them a room
Speaker 2: to stay and give them food, eventually drugs and next
Speaker 2: thing you know, there they're prostitutes. So Jim Rosstein started
Speaker 2: this in the late sixties and one of his informants
Speaker 2: brings him up to Ontamaya Park and Yonkers and says this,
Speaker 2: you know, there's not only is their child uh prostitution
Speaker 2: and trafficking going on, there's also a Satanic cult in
Speaker 2: in in the park that you know uses the park.
Speaker 2: Now you have to realize this is seven years before uh,
Speaker 2: seven years before the Son of Sam shootings, you know.
Speaker 2: And he learned and Jim Rostein learned about the Processed Church.
Speaker 2: Who who was part of this. I am not saying
Speaker 2: the Processed Church is i Satanic cult, but I think
Speaker 2: we can all agree bad people hang out with bad people.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of intermingling of groups, you know,
Speaker 2: so you know, unlike you know, unlike Maury originally said that,
Speaker 2: you know, the Processed Church you know was the uh
Speaker 2: you know, the impetus behind the Son of Sam. I
Speaker 2: don't buy that. I think some offshoot, you know, some
Speaker 2: members and you know, an offshoot of the process of Church,
Speaker 2: uh were involved, but uh but not none of them
Speaker 2: are good people anyway. Yeah, so uh it's uh. One
Speaker 2: other thing I want to mention is uh and this
Speaker 2: is not a disparage of the residents of Younkers in
Speaker 2: New York, but uh my, I have a few friends
Speaker 2: that live there, lived there now and everyone everyone in
Speaker 2: Younkers knows that Young to Meyer Park has been used
Speaker 2: I guess like any other park in in in the country.
Speaker 2: You know, teenagers go there to smoke pot, drink beer,
Speaker 2: have keg parties. Uh, and and some other nefarious groups
Speaker 2: used the park for whatever. There's certainly proof that there's
Speaker 2: some Satanic worshiping going on, because there's uh, there was
Speaker 2: photos that that you can be found in The Ultimate
Speaker 2: Evil Maury's book that there's photos of of you know,
Speaker 2: an altar with you know, with a pentagram uh, and
Speaker 2: you know, you listen to Jim Rothstein and all this
Speaker 2: stuff really happened to answer the final part of this
Speaker 2: is what was their purpose? I really don't know, uh
Speaker 2: the way the way I know it it you know,
Speaker 2: it was kind of almost like a multi layer corporation.
Speaker 2: And at the bottom was the twenty two Disciples of Hell,
Speaker 2: which Barklewitz was one of. And like any know, the cult,
Speaker 2: I think they you know, cult leaders will reach out
Speaker 2: to the disenfranchised, uh, you know, or for girls, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever you're into girls, boys, you know, drugs, parties to
Speaker 2: do their bidding. And when is their bidding? Well, we
Speaker 2: pretty much know it has a lot to do with
Speaker 2: with drugs. When I say drugs, I mean like, you know,
Speaker 2: large quantities of drugs and uh, and procuring boys for
Speaker 2: you know, for the rich and famous. Uh you know.
Speaker 2: And I know that's kind of a far cry from
Speaker 2: talking Dogs and David Barkowitz, but uh, you know, in
Speaker 2: light of what people have been reading in the last
Speaker 2: you know, seven or eight years, it certainly fits in.
Speaker 2: It's a lot more believable today than it was thirty
Speaker 2: years go because the general public like just pooh poohed
Speaker 2: everything you know, they even made up an you know,
Speaker 2: satanic panic. There was no panic. It really was there,
Speaker 2: you know. But it's like you know, the old CIA thing,
Speaker 2: misinformation and disinformation to confuse everyone and to make you know,
Speaker 2: make everyone that believes in it like you know, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, a tinfoil tinfoil conspiracist.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. Certainly you talk about too that that this
Speaker 4: is not There are certainly things that you share with
Speaker 4: Marey Terry, but this is not. This is different from
Speaker 4: some of the things that he said. And in the
Speaker 4: Ultimate Evil too you you you say that it's brilliant
Speaker 4: three quarters of the way through, but when you get
Speaker 4: to the California connections and Manson that that that that
Speaker 4: lost you and it lost credibility with a lot of people.
Speaker 4: You say, as well, with this book, despite your lack
Speaker 4: of getting real answers from Berkowitz, is very interesting. You
Speaker 4: provide all that you provide all the sketches that were involved,
Speaker 4: and it's dramatic. You say that the sketches looking like uh,
Speaker 4: the one of the cars. I believe John Carr, I believe.
Speaker 4: The thing is is that you also include the correspondence
Speaker 4: with Berkowitz and you asked him nicely and approached him gingerly,
Speaker 4: and then you approached him again and tried to ask
Speaker 4: him questions and you really you're hoping for he said,
Speaker 4: be patient, but you're you really didn't get much from
Speaker 4: David Berkowitz, unfortunately, did you?
Speaker 2: I did not. I did not. And uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's kind of funny because I heard through intermediary that
Speaker 2: he wanted to talk to me, and I batted the
Speaker 2: idea around a little, you know, a while. Actually, at
Speaker 2: one point Maury had set up an interview that I
Speaker 2: was going to do with Barkowitz, Maury being the moderator,
Speaker 2: and we had everything set up and uh and and
Speaker 2: about a week before bark Wood's backed off and that
Speaker 2: was it. I. Uh, I got a feeling that, you know,
Speaker 2: I got it. There's probably gonna be some fence fence mending.
Speaker 2: I'm certainly not going to apologize, but uh, I can't
Speaker 2: believe that he would be thrilled that I wrote a book.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, uh, the name of the
Speaker 2: book is the truth about why I wasn't shot by
Speaker 2: David Barkowitz. I think I should get some credit for
Speaker 2: that in Berkowitz's mind. So we shall see you know
Speaker 2: what is what his reaction is, because as you pointed
Speaker 2: out in one of the letters, he did say just
Speaker 2: be patient. So that that, you know, I take hope
Speaker 2: from that that. I'm not really sure what it means,
Speaker 2: but I am a patient guy. I've been waiting forty
Speaker 2: five years, so I can wait another ten or fifteen.
Speaker 2: So who knows, Maybe he's going to wait for his deathbed.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: You say again a lot of things that you might
Speaker 4: not be one hundred percent sure about certain things, but
Speaker 4: you are certain certain that he did not shoot you.
Speaker 4: David Berkowitz did not shoot you. But you you create
Speaker 4: a and have created telling story here to say that
Speaker 4: there's much more than the official story, and there's much
Speaker 4: more that anyone would imagine. And it comes right from
Speaker 4: somebody that actually lived through this, and you're still living
Speaker 4: this to this day, aren't you.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie to you.
Speaker 2: It's not I have gone on my life. It was
Speaker 2: never all consumed, if you will, but it's never been
Speaker 2: far from my mind. And of course, you know, just
Speaker 2: in my personal life, you know, you know, people know
Speaker 2: me and they find out that I was a victim
Speaker 2: of son of Sam. You get that. I hate to
Speaker 2: use the word celebrity because I'm certainly not a celebrity.
Speaker 2: But uh, you know, people you know always wanted like
Speaker 2: you know where, to feel like you know where, you
Speaker 2: know what happened. You know. That's so even if I
Speaker 2: wanted to forget about it, I would never be able
Speaker 2: to for for more than a week or two. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and again I think, don't get me wrong, and.
Speaker 4: I think that's going to be more the case with
Speaker 4: the with the the release of this book. When was
Speaker 4: this book released? And this is a Wild Blue Press release,
Speaker 4: So just tell us when it was released and if
Speaker 4: you have a Facebook page or how how they can
Speaker 4: might show up more about this book.
Speaker 2: Okay, so yes, it was published by Wild Wild bo
Speaker 2: Wild Blue press dot com and you can purchase the
Speaker 2: book through through them or through Amazon of course. The
Speaker 2: name of the book is The Son of Sam and
Speaker 2: Me The Truth About Why I Wasn't Shot by David Berkowitz,
Speaker 2: by Carl Denaro and Brian Whitney. I don't have a website, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: I was. I was told the book was going to
Speaker 2: be published in April, and I'm working on a website.
Speaker 2: It's just not ready yet, but it's I have a
Speaker 2: very original name. It's called Carldenaro dot com. That was
Speaker 2: a joke. But anyway, so I'm hoping by you know,
Speaker 2: two or three, by the end of the Buddy, end of March,
Speaker 2: I will I will have the website up. And it's
Speaker 2: got some additional photos that I didn't put in the book.
Speaker 2: Uh so I think they're kind of cool. Uh you know,
Speaker 2: photos of the Bolka and I was in. There is
Speaker 2: one in the book on the passenger side and you
Speaker 2: can see the hole in the roof of a car.
Speaker 2: But I have some other photos and also you'll be
Speaker 2: able to buy buy the book directly through me. Of
Speaker 2: course I will sign it if you want it. And
Speaker 2: I'm also going to put my daughter's my daughter's short
Speaker 2: film on the website for sale. It's it's actually a
Speaker 2: I'm prejudiced. I think it's a compelling sixteen minute film
Speaker 2: and it basically covers the night I was shot until
Speaker 2: the day March tenth when they announced that the serial killer.
Speaker 2: So that will be that will be available in a
Speaker 2: few weeks.
Speaker 4: Yes, you talked about too that you'll talk about the
Speaker 4: secure website, but you say for now, your email Can
Speaker 4: I give out your email as you do in the book.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sorry because that's the new emails that the Gmail. Yeah,
Speaker 2: taking up from the yes that that's fine, Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I just the media yet.
Speaker 4: But this is this investigation. This investigation is still not
Speaker 4: over for you. So the email is Carl Denario Denaro
Speaker 4: pardon me, son of Sam, survivor at gmail dot com.
Speaker 4: So thank you very much, Carl Denaro, the son of
Speaker 4: Sam and me the truth about why I wasn't shot
Speaker 4: by David Burkwitz. Thank you so much for this interview
Speaker 4: and you have a great evening. Thank you so much too.
Speaker 2: Thanks all right, thank you bye. Can I