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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening. Fred Rosen follows a killer's trail back in
Speaker 8: time two decades to discover how a monster slipped through
Speaker 8: the legal system. When police and Tampa floor arrested Larry
Speaker 8: Singleton in nineteen ninety seven for brutally murdering prostitute Roxanne Hayes,
Speaker 8: they soon realized it wasn't the man's first violent attack.
Speaker 8: Back in nineteen seventy eight, he had gained notoriety as
Speaker 8: the Mad Chopper for raping and cutting off the arms
Speaker 8: of fifteen year old Mary Vincent on a patch of
Speaker 8: desolate sun's scorched land five miles off the highway near Modesto, California.
Speaker 8: When Singleton was led out of prison on supervised parole
Speaker 8: after serving only eight years for his crimes, no community
Speaker 8: in California would accept him. He eventually moved back to
Speaker 8: his home in Florida, where he killed Hayes, nearly twenty
Speaker 8: years after his original crime. But his first victim, Vincent,
Speaker 8: had survived walking nearly a mile to get help after
Speaker 8: the assault, and testified against him at the trial for
Speaker 8: murdering Hayes. The book they were featuring this evening is
Speaker 8: The Mad Chopper, How the Justice System let a mutilate
Speaker 8: or free this time to kill With my special guest,
Speaker 8: Fred Rosen, Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 8: much for agreeing to this interview. Fred Rosen. Good evening,
Speaker 8: Fred Good evening, Fred Rosen, Good evening, Fred Rosen.
Speaker 4: Hello, Hello, Fred, good evening, Good evening, Dan, how are
Speaker 4: you fine? Thank you.
Speaker 8: We had another caller, so I guess it's someone just
Speaker 8: listening in, So welcome to the program. Welcome back, Fred.
Speaker 4: Well, it's my pleasure. I can understand. I know what
Speaker 4: was happening while there was a problem. That's that's the NSA.
Speaker 4: They're they're they're making trouble. Dan, you know what I mean.
Speaker 8: Okay, Sure, Well that's good. More listeners the better.
Speaker 4: Hey, Well, you know I never thought of it that
Speaker 4: they could be listening to Washington. Yeah, we're not supposed
Speaker 4: to get political. I suppose right. How are you Dan,
Speaker 4: How are you fine?
Speaker 8: Thank you, Fred? How are you busy as usual?
Speaker 4: I see, yes, sir, yes, sir, I am. And it
Speaker 4: was funny because I reread you know, The Man Chopper today,
Speaker 4: and you know, because unlike some people who do what
Speaker 4: you do, you actually read the book and ask incredibly
Speaker 4: intelligent questions. And I got to tell you when I
Speaker 4: got to the end of it, and I know I
Speaker 4: wrote it, I had tears in my eyes because of
Speaker 4: Mary Vincent. Absolutely, I mean it was really something, and
Speaker 4: you know, I haven't looked her up lately, and well,
Speaker 4: you know, obviously we're going to talk about it. But
Speaker 4: you know, it's very very interesting, you know, how these
Speaker 4: things play out and how the justice system works regardless
Speaker 4: of the country. And I'm very aware that, thank god,
Speaker 4: you have listeners all over the world, and so it's
Speaker 4: not just the question of what happens in the United States.
Speaker 4: It's Canada, it's Australia, it's it's it's it's England, it's Germany.
Speaker 4: You know, we're all in this together.
Speaker 8: Now, let's get to the the question I always ask
Speaker 8: is I'm curious what exactly brought you this opportunity to
Speaker 8: do this book to match up er, how did you
Speaker 8: come to this book?
Speaker 4: Well, this it's you know, in reading again and reading
Speaker 4: the book again, and it reminded me that this is
Speaker 4: pretty unique. What happened was it's twenty years ago, okay.
Speaker 4: And what happened was my daughter had just been born,
Speaker 4: and I was in Valparaiso, Indiana, waiting to go upstairs
Speaker 4: to the neo natal unit to holder meter, you know.
Speaker 4: And before we went upstairs, I had a local paper
Speaker 4: and I'm reading the local paper and Dan, I see
Speaker 4: the picture of this dude, Larry Singleton, staring up at
Speaker 4: me from page three. I remember what paper it was,
Speaker 4: but it doesn't make any difference. And I start reading
Speaker 4: and it said that this guy had been captured in
Speaker 4: Hillsboro County, Florida, which is the Tampa area, for murdering
Speaker 4: a prostitute. And I had written a book called Lobster
Speaker 4: Boy there about crime there, and I went, g, this
Speaker 4: is you know, you know, I know these people and stuff,
Speaker 4: and you know, I know all the cops and the
Speaker 4: prosecutors and so forth. And what happened was, Dan, it
Speaker 4: was serendipity. I got a phone call from my editor,
Speaker 4: Paul Dennis, who at that time was the editor in
Speaker 4: chief of Kensington Books. And this fellow pulled Dennis is
Speaker 4: largely responsible for the way that true crime became a
Speaker 4: popular genre. And Paul said to me, Fred, I was
Speaker 4: just reading the you know, the New York of the
Speaker 4: Daily News, New York newspaper, and he said, there's a
Speaker 4: front page story about a guy called the Man Chopper.
Speaker 4: I said, I just saw the same picture. He said,
Speaker 4: that's your next book. I said what. And I told
Speaker 4: him my daughter had just been born. And I said, well,
Speaker 4: this seems a little bit violent, even for me. And
Speaker 4: he goes, Fred, you just became a father. You need work,
Speaker 4: and that's how this book came about.
Speaker 8: Amazing. Now let's get to Let's get to Berkeley, California,
Speaker 8: and where you set the stage. It's just nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 8: University of California, a very unique university, an incredible time,
Speaker 8: nineteen seventy eight. And this is University of California, you say,
Speaker 8: across the bay from San Francisco. And yet she sets
Speaker 8: out this fifteen year old girl, Mary Vincent, fifteen years old.
Speaker 8: She had as you've set the background, she had a
Speaker 8: companion named Diego Montea, and ironically and very bizarrely, he
Speaker 8: was accused of raping a different fifteen year old girl,
Speaker 8: but she was dedicated to him, and so she decided
Speaker 8: to help him out. And she was going to see
Speaker 8: her lawyer in Marion County Civic Center and she called
Speaker 8: her grandfather. She didn't have any money, Rick or Vincent
Speaker 8: in Los Angeles, and she said she was going to
Speaker 8: visit him, asked him to get some money. So she
Speaker 8: was hitchhiking, and she had hitchhiked and she got to
Speaker 8: what they call Hitchhiker's Corner. So take it from there.
Speaker 8: What happened at Hitchhiker's Corner and who she meets.
Speaker 4: Well, what happens is Dan. She she's at Hitchhiker's Corner,
Speaker 4: which is a which is a place on the University
Speaker 4: of California at Berkeley's campus where kids would go to hitchhike.
Speaker 4: And a dude pulls up, pulls up in a van
Speaker 4: and and he says, where are you going? And she says,
Speaker 4: I'm going to Los Angeles, blah blah blah. And this
Speaker 4: guy is a guy with a I love this word,
Speaker 4: Bulbous knows. And he's in his oh he's in his
Speaker 4: early fifties, and uh, he's you know, but he's he's
Speaker 4: a tall guy. He's very well built, and uh, he
Speaker 4: seemed pretty innocent enough. And she gets in the car
Speaker 4: with him, and the next thing, you know, you know,
Speaker 4: they're driving through you know, they leave Berkeley, which is
Speaker 4: of course, which is east of San Francisco, and he's
Speaker 4: really supposed to go south, you know, to get to
Speaker 4: Los Angeles, but he keeps going east. And she gets
Speaker 4: very suspicious, like what's this about? And he gives us
Speaker 4: some BS story and eventually he takes her to a
Speaker 4: house where he's a house that he has, and what
Speaker 4: he does is he said, listen. He says, if you
Speaker 4: help me load some stuff into the van, I'll give
Speaker 4: you some money and I'll take yourself to Los Angeles.
Speaker 4: She says, okay. So they go to the house. She
Speaker 4: helps him load the stuff into the van, and a
Speaker 4: lot of it is dog food, believer or not. They
Speaker 4: get back in the in the van and he starts
Speaker 4: imbibing from a gallon jug. And I didn't know people
Speaker 4: do this sort of stuff, because it turns out that
Speaker 4: in the gallon jug he's got two hundred percent alcohol
Speaker 4: dan which he cuts with water and the next thing
Speaker 4: you know, he's drinking. You know, he winds up. You know,
Speaker 4: they're driving and they keeps going east and she's going,
Speaker 4: what's going on here? Well, this guy winds up raping
Speaker 4: this poor girl and it gets worse. Should I keep going?
Speaker 4: Or do you want to just ask the questions? Yeah?
Speaker 8: No, So so there's a point where you talk about
Speaker 8: she has again there's some red flags come up because
Speaker 8: he acts bad at first, then he apologizes, then he
Speaker 8: takes her for a little dinner. Everything seems to be okay. Again,
Speaker 8: this is not this is just a fifteen year old girl.
Speaker 8: That's you know, in that time that was his shiking.
Speaker 8: Was it was normal?
Speaker 1: Man?
Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's an excellent point to make that
Speaker 4: in the late seventies in California, this was the end
Speaker 4: of the hippie era. This was not an uncommon situation
Speaker 4: for uh, for kids to hitchhike. This was before we
Speaker 4: were worried about serial killers and so forth. So she
Speaker 4: was just doing what a lot of kids did. Because
Speaker 4: she wanted to go to Los Angeles to talk to
Speaker 4: her granddaddy who is going to help her out financially,
Speaker 4: and so.
Speaker 2: For it, and.
Speaker 4: The guy takes her to dinner. But again, eventually what
Speaker 4: happens is he's drinking and like some alcoholics Larry Singleton,
Speaker 4: which is the name of the bad guy, he becomes
Speaker 4: a different human being under the influence of alcohol, and
Speaker 4: he winds up raping Mary Vincent. And then it gets
Speaker 4: worse from there, I believe, you know, which is part
Speaker 4: to believe, ladies and gentlemen, but it does. It gets
Speaker 4: much worse from there.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about her being raped, and he is
Speaker 8: not taking her anywhere near Los Angeles at all. He
Speaker 8: takes her into the Del Puerto Canyon, a really deserted
Speaker 8: and isolated place, and there's a point where he says,
Speaker 8: you know, I got to take a leap, and she
Speaker 8: says me too, So we can Can we say.
Speaker 4: That on radio? Yeah? Yeah, Okay, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 8: So he's talking about he's raping her brutally, but now
Speaker 8: he's got his hands around her neck, so it's a
Speaker 8: little different than the previous rape. Yes, and he decides
Speaker 8: he looks around and he sees this drainage pipe, So
Speaker 8: what does he do well, yeah, we.
Speaker 4: Need to explain this. That's an excellent point. What happens
Speaker 4: is and I went out there when I wrote the book.
Speaker 4: I can't write about something unless I see it and
Speaker 4: breathe it so that the reader understands what it's about,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. So and and I just
Speaker 4: so that people understand we're talking about I don't know
Speaker 4: how many miles he's that is of that maybe it's
Speaker 4: twenty five miles east of Lodesto, California. And what happens
Speaker 4: is he says he needs to take a leak, and
Speaker 4: the girl says the same thing. And he's in this
Speaker 4: really isolated place. I mean we're talking. You know, it's
Speaker 4: a movie set. You know, people have seen this stuff
Speaker 4: in the movies. You know, an isolated like high desert.
Speaker 4: I think they call it the high Desert. I'd have
Speaker 4: to look at my geography, but it's a very deserted
Speaker 4: area and a lot of rocks and so forth. And
Speaker 4: he parks the van near a covert and they get
Speaker 4: out and the next thing you know, he is assaulting
Speaker 4: her again. But you want me to say what happens?
Speaker 4: I guess I should. All right, I'll just say ladies
Speaker 4: and gentlemen, this is probably the I think in my career.
Speaker 4: It is the most horrific physical assault I know of. Okay,
Speaker 4: we're not just talking rape. What happens is Larry Singleton
Speaker 4: realizes that he needs since he has raped her, if
Speaker 4: she survives, she can testify against him. So the idea is,
Speaker 4: what do you do to prevent identification? And we're not
Speaker 4: dealing with a guy who's got all of his oars
Speaker 4: in the water. And what he decides to do is
Speaker 4: throw her down on the ground, and he's good, and
Speaker 4: he takes a hatchet and he cuts off her arms
Speaker 4: below the elbow.
Speaker 8: So that.
Speaker 4: There won't be any fingerprints. And then he takes her
Speaker 4: body and he thinks she's dead and stuffs her into
Speaker 4: the colvert. And this idiot then takes the severed limbs
Speaker 4: and puts them in his back in his sand and
Speaker 4: drives off. And Mary, God was with her, survives. And
Speaker 4: what happens is she winds up it and she's conscious,
Speaker 4: Ladies and gentlemen, when he does it. But God was
Speaker 4: with her because what happens is there's a lot of mud,
Speaker 4: so that the stumps that she has now are in
Speaker 4: the mud. And that's stops the hemorrhaging and the bleeding.
Speaker 4: She will subsequently wake up, and when she does, this
Speaker 4: girl has so much survival in her she will walk
Speaker 4: almost two miles until a good Samaritan helps her. And
Speaker 4: what happens is Singleton, the bad guy goes back west
Speaker 4: and he's driving over the Oakland Bay Bridge, which many
Speaker 4: of us have driven over. And you know what he does, Dan,
Speaker 4: He opens up the driver's side door and he tosses
Speaker 4: the limbs out into the water, which turned out to
Speaker 4: be a very, very big mistake. And this is why
Speaker 4: you know people like me and you get to write
Speaker 4: about people this because they're not the brightest apples in
Speaker 4: the bunch. They just figure that nobody's going to know
Speaker 4: about it. But that's not what happens here.
Speaker 8: You talk about him attempting to kill her, because basically
Speaker 8: that's what he thought he was doing, was murdering her
Speaker 8: and cutting off her hands so that she could not
Speaker 8: be identified if the body was found, and he tried
Speaker 8: to do at least a good job of hiding the
Speaker 8: body for the time period, and then believed he could
Speaker 8: take the hands and throw them away as he did.
Speaker 8: The image that I get from the way you've written
Speaker 8: this book is that and this image is still in
Speaker 8: my head and it's been in my head since I
Speaker 8: start reading this book. Oh wow, her wandering down the highway, naked, delirious,
Speaker 8: eighty or ninety degree weather. The first car that sees her,
Speaker 8: after she's managed to walk a mile or more, he's
Speaker 8: so affrightened he turned around and takes off the other way.
Speaker 8: It takes her, she doesn't even know how many hours
Speaker 8: before someone else comes and saves her. A man comes
Speaker 8: and takes her into his car, drives to an airport
Speaker 8: and calls nine to one to one. Amazing that image
Speaker 8: of this woman with just bloodied stumps, naked, walking down
Speaker 8: the road asking for help.
Speaker 4: And you know, it's what's so interesting about what you're saying,
Speaker 4: is that, is that you would have thought, given the
Speaker 4: name what you're saying, the images, And you're right, the image,
Speaker 4: it's an incredible image. You would have thought that in
Speaker 4: some way somebody would have done an m Ow movie
Speaker 4: of the week or a movie, but that never happened.
Speaker 4: And I suspect it's because it's so horrific. But I
Speaker 4: think what's very interesting here is that she you're you know,
Speaker 4: you're right. I mean, she's walking in this you know,
Speaker 4: it's eighty or ninety degrees, and she's naked because that's
Speaker 4: you know, each stripped of her clothing. And the first dude,
Speaker 4: that Caesar, walking along in the shimmering desert heat, just
Speaker 4: keeps going, Well, I don't know who that person is,
Speaker 4: but if he's listening, I don't have anything to say.
Speaker 4: But the second individual, Caesar, is a terrific human being,
Speaker 4: and he puts her into the car and they go
Speaker 4: to the to a local airstrip. And that's really where
Speaker 4: I feel that the police really, you know, there is
Speaker 4: so much attention. I was thinking about this today, Dan,
Speaker 4: There are so much attention today about police officers not
Speaker 4: doing their job and so forth. Well, these police officers
Speaker 4: in Stanislaus County, California were fantastic and they were able
Speaker 4: to not only rush her to the hospital to save
Speaker 4: her life, but the detective on the case, his name
Speaker 4: was Brishers, was able to not only interview her, but
Speaker 4: he used hypnosis in order to get her to recall
Speaker 4: certain details which would eventually help convict Singleton. And you know,
Speaker 4: as I'm reading this, I'm reading this, I wrote it.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm thinking, you know what, what's going on?
Speaker 4: You know this, This is the kind of story that
Speaker 4: needs to be told because so much attention has been
Speaker 4: focused on the negativity regarding police officers. But this is
Speaker 4: a detective, and this guy is wonderful, and so are
Speaker 4: these the detectives at this police department, and and and
Speaker 4: so Mary Vincent is able to give Lieutenant Brisher's a
Speaker 4: description of our assailant, and they get a fantastic police
Speaker 4: artist to do a you know, a composite which they
Speaker 4: put out over the wires, and you know, and it's
Speaker 4: like when you know, as again as I was reading
Speaker 4: it today, going you know this, I don't know if
Speaker 4: they still do this stuff today, Dan, I honestly don't know.
Speaker 4: You know. All I can tell you is these cops
Speaker 4: were fantastic and they saved this girl's life and then
Speaker 4: they were eventually able to get the bad guy.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about and again this is in the
Speaker 8: last few episodes we talked about some incredible efforts to
Speaker 8: bring in hypnosis into the mix. And yeah, not only
Speaker 8: did this, not only this fifteen year old have the
Speaker 8: wherewithal to remember important details like that he was a
Speaker 8: merchant marine that he had a first aid kit in
Speaker 8: the window that he had another house in Reno, Nevada,
Speaker 8: and then they put her under And it's amazing what
Speaker 8: you chronicle. The information that they did get they didn't
Speaker 8: know the value of at that time, but they still again,
Speaker 8: these dedicated cops were incensed over this and were out raged,
Speaker 8: and so even more so they worked with some dedication
Speaker 8: to try to solve this. And Todd Mack did a
Speaker 8: fantastic job. And so the neighbor, a neighbor that had
Speaker 8: lived in San Pueblo said, you know, it took her
Speaker 8: a couple of days to come to the decision, but
Speaker 8: she called the police and said, I think this is
Speaker 8: my neighbor and take it from there. What how much
Speaker 8: information they got from Mary, and again traumatized as she was,
Speaker 8: was still cooperating with the police and detective for shears.
Speaker 8: But as you say, the break in the case comes
Speaker 8: from again that good work, from that description and what
Speaker 8: do the police do with this tip?
Speaker 4: Well, what happened? You know what? You know what really
Speaker 4: gets me? You know I I you know, I in
Speaker 4: my generation, Dan Simmy Davis Junior would go on TV shows.
Speaker 4: Here I go going off the topic. I realized that,
Speaker 4: and he'd always say something really terrific about the host.
Speaker 4: What gets me is that I want all of our
Speaker 4: listeners to understand how you really absorb the information that
Speaker 4: you read and ask incredibly intelligent questions. Okay, you can.
Speaker 4: You can give me five dollars afterwards, and if you
Speaker 4: want to, it can be Canadian. So anyway, okay, now
Speaker 4: here's the thing. What happens is is this this this felam.
Speaker 4: Mister Mac does a sketch of the bad guy and
Speaker 4: it goes out and a woman in California sees it.
Speaker 4: We're talking a lot in California and says, you know,
Speaker 4: that looks like Larry Singleton and he used to be
Speaker 4: my my, my neighbor. Okay, And simultaneously for Shears, who
Speaker 4: has been tru I mean, this is unbelievable to me.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is like Sherlock Holmes, the Rashers. The
Speaker 4: detective has been trained in forensic hypnosis, so he hypnotizes
Speaker 4: her and what he does, I mean, it's just what
Speaker 4: he does is he gets to recall the events in
Speaker 4: the third person, so she's not traumatized. And what she
Speaker 4: remembers is that when she went to Singleton's house, and
Speaker 4: again she doesn't know his name at this point. She
Speaker 4: just knows he's a merchant Marine because that's what he
Speaker 4: said he was. There was a first, a kid in
Speaker 4: the window of the house, which you mentioned. Well, what
Speaker 4: happens is the police put together what Mary says the
Speaker 4: victim and what Sandra, the neighbor, tells them about Singleton,
Speaker 4: and they go to the dude's house and they go
Speaker 4: in and they I mean they did the I mean
Speaker 4: it's like they did it by the numbers. They get
Speaker 4: them sell a search warrant. You know, this isn't some
Speaker 4: stupid TV show. You know, they get a search warrant.
Speaker 4: They go in, and now they find in the fireplace
Speaker 4: the guy some stuff was being burned and it turned
Speaker 4: out it was Mary Vincent's clothing. So now they know
Speaker 4: who they're looking for, and they keep going and they
Speaker 4: find he's done. The guy was a merchant Marine and
Speaker 4: he was making a lot of money, which, by the way,
Speaker 4: that was an education. I didn't know they did. And
Speaker 4: the dude had another residence in Nevada, and that leads
Speaker 4: the police in Nevada to capture him. And when they do,
Speaker 4: Singleton waves extradition and they send him back to California.
Speaker 4: So now they got their suspects. I mean, this was
Speaker 4: and this was just such terrific policing. I don't know
Speaker 4: any other way of putting it, you know. And there's
Speaker 4: one other thing we should mention earlier. I said that
Speaker 4: when he's when Singleton is driving over the Oakland Bay Bridge,
Speaker 4: he throws the the the arms, the severed arms, out
Speaker 4: the window, just by folks. One of them winds up
Speaker 4: going into an estuary and washes up and they find it.
Speaker 4: I mean they a fisherman finds it, calls the police,
Speaker 4: and now they have the arm to match to our
Speaker 4: stump forensically. And and it's incredible because, you know, because
Speaker 4: there's two ways of looking at this. One way is
Speaker 4: of course how awful it is and the trauma. But
Speaker 4: the other way of looking at this is what you
Speaker 4: said earlier, which is the police determined that they were
Speaker 4: going to get this guy because nobody had ever seen
Speaker 4: anybody do what this guy did, and they said, we're
Speaker 4: going to get him. And you know what, everybody. What
Speaker 4: they did was they used the law. They didn't go
Speaker 4: outside the law. They use the law, They use technology
Speaker 4: and most importantly, they used shoe leather to get this
Speaker 4: guy and their brains. And to me that that's like,
Speaker 4: you know, as I'm reading, you know, I'm reading when
Speaker 4: I'm when I wrote, I'm going, Yeah, these people still
Speaker 4: around today.
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Speaker 8: Now they identify that hand, they make a match. They
Speaker 8: also now have enough to bring in Larry Singleton Lawrence Singleton, Yes,
Speaker 8: so he so he doesn't come in with representation. He
Speaker 8: comes in. They have him speaking without any kind of lawyer.
Speaker 8: So what does he have to say? What does he
Speaker 8: say to? How did they conduct this interview?
Speaker 4: Is very interesting, It's really interesting, bursars. You know, it's fine.
Speaker 4: You know, as we're talking, I I didn't look it up. Dan.
Speaker 4: I'm hoping that he's still around because this guy, he
Speaker 4: was good and he and his partner rees and what
Speaker 4: they did was they get him into an interrogation and
Speaker 4: they and and you know, I don't know, you know,
Speaker 4: it would it'd be very interesting to find out how
Speaker 4: this stuff works another events in other countries. But they
Speaker 4: gave him his rights. You know, you have the right
Speaker 4: to be silent, et cetera, et cetera. Anything you say
Speaker 4: maybe used against you in the court of law. You
Speaker 4: have the right to the representation of an attorney, and
Speaker 4: he declines, and he signs off on his right and
Speaker 4: they start talking to him. Well, long story short, Singleton
Speaker 4: comes up with a story. He claims that after he
Speaker 4: picked up Mary Vincent, he picked up two hitchhikers someplace else.
Speaker 4: One has the name of Larry. Gee, there's a coincidence,
Speaker 4: and one has the name of Pedro. And he insists
Speaker 4: throughout the interrogation that these individuals were there. He insists
Speaker 4: that Mary had a stick, Ladies and gentlemen, I'm not
Speaker 4: making this up. He says that she had a stick
Speaker 4: he was threatening him with, and that later she gave
Speaker 4: access to a knife that's in the van, and that
Speaker 4: Pedro gets access to a gun he kept in the van,
Speaker 4: though he didn't know where he kept it. Though, Gee,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe somebody should pull the NRA on this guy.
Speaker 4: But anyway, he had this this this gun, allegedly Pedro.
Speaker 4: And so what he tries to do is is slough
Speaker 4: off any responsibility for what happens to Mary Vincent. And
Speaker 4: he claims that he didn't do a dance thing to her,
Speaker 4: and he and but and he keeps invoking God Dan,
Speaker 4: he keeps saying, God, I didn't do this under God.
Speaker 4: You know, he keeps talking about God, I didn't do this,
Speaker 4: blah blah blah, for shears keeps boring in. The cop
Speaker 4: keeps going in on him and says, you know, he
Speaker 4: you're you know this, it's it's it's it's it's a
Speaker 4: textbook case of how to conduct an interrogation. And he says, no,
Speaker 4: mister Singleton, you're lying, buddy. He doesn't say it in
Speaker 4: those in those words, but basically that's what he said.
Speaker 4: And he keeps trying to get the guy. And this
Speaker 4: is really it was so interesting. He wanted to know
Speaker 4: why why would he cut this girl's arms off? Well,
Speaker 4: not only will Singleton not admit to doing it, you
Speaker 4: won't admit to any motive. So the police then have
Speaker 4: to put their case together with the forensics, the evidence,
Speaker 4: and with Mary Vincent's testimony.
Speaker 8: You also include that part of his story is that
Speaker 8: this big, tough merchant marine and quite a muscular guy
Speaker 8: at that time, still in good shape. Big guy was
Speaker 8: threatened by this fifteen year old with a little stick,
Speaker 8: and yeah, he threatned go ahead, sir, No, no, no, no,
Speaker 8: no you go ahead.
Speaker 4: No, no, you go ahead.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and then he says that she wanted to have
Speaker 8: wanted to get stoned all the time. She claimed, oh,
Speaker 8: she loved oral sex. So just a meaning denigrating her
Speaker 8: character of course, talking about some Mexican guy and some
Speaker 8: other guy. And and to the credit of Reese and Rashers,
Speaker 8: Detective Reese just lets this guy go. But at the
Speaker 8: same time he lets him give him enough, as you
Speaker 8: call it, rope to hang himself. He's also taking down
Speaker 8: all the inconsistencies that this guy has when just let
Speaker 8: him go and let him talk. And he's also at
Speaker 8: some point very very challenging of this guy. At some
Speaker 8: point it's not nice at all, and he's challenging him,
Speaker 8: trying to get a confession. And this guy seems cool
Speaker 8: as a cucumber, doesn't he?
Speaker 4: I would say, totally as cool as a cucumber. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's really you know, now, you know they would try.
Speaker 4: What Forsheers and Reese were trying to do was playing
Speaker 4: the guy's conscience. And by the way, I believe that
Speaker 4: I didn't get into it in the book, but this
Speaker 4: guy is not a associate path I don't see that
Speaker 4: at all. He had a lot of problems which we
Speaker 4: would later find out, and the cops at the time
Speaker 4: didn't know this. But what I'm getting at is that
Speaker 4: he would not take any responsibility for what he did.
Speaker 4: And this is in a situation. This is not a
Speaker 4: situation where you know, he's smart enough to say, hey,
Speaker 4: get me a lawyer. He is having problems rationalizing his actions.
Speaker 4: And there will later be speculation that he had an
Speaker 4: alcohol of blackout. And what's interesting about that is under
Speaker 4: American criminal law, if that occurs, that the defense and
Speaker 4: mitigates the crime. But the two cops were looking at
Speaker 4: it from the point of view of, you know something,
Speaker 4: this guy is lying. They felt right from the get
Speaker 4: go that he was lying. And what he was doing
Speaker 4: is what a lot of individuals do who rape a woman,
Speaker 4: which is trying to essentially he put her on trial
Speaker 4: for her actions. We're talking a fifteen year old girl.
Speaker 4: He would actually claim that he thought she was twenty
Speaker 4: one excuse me, you know. And and he also, you know,
Speaker 4: here's a guy who not only was he a big,
Speaker 4: muscular guy in good shape at that point, the guy,
Speaker 4: oh my god, you know. And as funny as I
Speaker 4: was reading the book again today, because I said to myself.
Speaker 4: Dan's canna ask me questions, I better know what the
Speaker 4: hell I'm talking about. And he was a veteran of
Speaker 4: the Korean War, and he was on Pork Chop Hill,
Speaker 4: which was one of the worst battles of the Korean
Speaker 4: War where the Communist Chinese attacked our troops and we
Speaker 4: lost at least fifty percent of them. The point this
Speaker 4: guy was in, you know, essentially hand to hand combat.
Speaker 4: So the idea that a fifteen year old girl could
Speaker 4: hold this individual at bay with a stick. Gee, if
Speaker 4: you believe that one. I got a bridge in Brooklyn,
Speaker 4: I'll sell you for five bucks. All right, Dan, you
Speaker 4: don't want to buy at You don't want to buy
Speaker 4: the bridge in five bucks? Don't get good?
Speaker 8: Okay, Well, you talk about this, you talk about this technique,
Speaker 8: the employer, this ruse they employ on him. They say
Speaker 8: they're trying to get this confession. They're pushing as hard
Speaker 8: as they can and they think they might get one.
Speaker 8: They said, listen, we found some blood on the hatchet.
Speaker 8: How do you explain that? And so how does he respond?
Speaker 4: Oh? Well, he says, it gets goes further than that.
Speaker 4: He says, oh, I don't know how it got there.
Speaker 4: I didn't use the hatchet. I haven't been hunting for
Speaker 4: a long time. I mean. He also talked about how
Speaker 4: there was a string on the hatchet and the string
Speaker 4: was you know, the hit on the handle, and he
Speaker 4: talked and the comps asked him about why it was
Speaker 4: that the string was was broken a torn rather, and
Speaker 4: he came up with some you know, his old bs,
Speaker 4: you know, And so he doesn't have any explanation for
Speaker 4: any of this. He has no explanation. You know. It's
Speaker 4: it's it's you know, it's the it's the other guy defense.
Speaker 4: You know, somebody else did it, somebody else used my stuff,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. And that's basically it. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, he doesn't, you know. And look, look, do
Speaker 4: I understand why he would say that. Yeah, he's not
Speaker 4: going to confess, but it was a bunch of bs.
Speaker 4: Can I say that on radio?
Speaker 8: Sure? Thank you?
Speaker 4: So that you know, it really doesn't go anyplace. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's just the fact that you know, he the cops
Speaker 4: just like us as we're as we're talking today, and
Speaker 4: I'm sure the listeners around the world are thinking to themselves,
Speaker 4: why would a person commit such a horrendous crime and
Speaker 4: you know something I don't know. You know, while logic
Speaker 4: would say he wants to get rid of the the
Speaker 4: arms because of identity, okay, and granted it's the seventies,
Speaker 4: so there's no DNA going down or anything like that. Still,
Speaker 4: what we're talking about is violence, if there is such
Speaker 4: a thing over the top. And we will later find
Speaker 4: out that he would claim Singleton that he was abused
Speaker 4: growing up by his mother and that, you know, and
Speaker 4: this was something the police didn't know at the time.
Speaker 4: It comes out much much later, and you know, that
Speaker 4: is certainly indicative of the problems he had to add
Speaker 4: his life with women. And I might add that he
Speaker 4: had a daughter and he physically abused the daughter as
Speaker 4: a teenager. Of course, he denied. This guy dealt you know,
Speaker 4: lived in denial his entire life. And you know, as
Speaker 4: we're talking about it, you know where it comes to mind, Dan,
Speaker 4: the word become to mind is in order for somebody
Speaker 4: like this to continue to do what he does, abuse
Speaker 4: a child, for instance, enabler people enabled him throughout his life.
Speaker 4: And one of the things the police were interested in
Speaker 4: was as a merchant marine, did he do stuff in
Speaker 4: other places they weren't able to find that out. But
Speaker 4: that's for a lot of reasons. Number one, the guy
Speaker 4: sailed all over the world, so you'd have to have
Speaker 4: a fortune in taxpayers' money to track all this stuff down.
Speaker 4: And I suspect, as we're talking right now, that he
Speaker 4: raped women and or abused them in various ways in
Speaker 4: other venues, but they didn't have the resources at that
Speaker 4: point to go after him in that respect. But one
Speaker 4: thing that we do know is that when people are
Speaker 4: this abusive, we know that it tends to be a pattern.
Speaker 4: And again, I'm going to say the same thing tend
Speaker 4: to be enabled by other individuals. And you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, Dan, There's there's look I've got I've got
Speaker 4: a relative, Dan okay, who a couple of years ago
Speaker 4: disagreed with me about in a political discussion. The dude
Speaker 4: reached across the table and tried.
Speaker 8: To hit me.
Speaker 4: First, cousin. Why does he get away with it because
Speaker 4: people enabled him? The same situation. If you know, as
Speaker 4: people listen to what we're talking about, that take a
Speaker 4: closer look at people you know that might be relatives,
Speaker 4: that might be acquaintances. And I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 4: some of you will find that there are individual to
Speaker 4: individual to do stuff like this. I'm not talking murder,
Speaker 4: but I'm talking about abuse. And that's the tip of
Speaker 4: the iceberg.
Speaker 8: I thought, no, back, yeah, back to the victim of
Speaker 8: this crime, this Mary Vincent. Very again. This is the
Speaker 8: outcome of this book for me is that I just
Speaker 8: picture her again that images in my head, but also
Speaker 8: just a sad story. And we won't get ahead of
Speaker 8: ourselves here, but at this time, and it's at this time,
Speaker 8: at the same time that they're questioning this guy, and yeah,
Speaker 8: she's the victim of crime, and so potentially she needs
Speaker 8: new arms. So she needs victim of crime compensation program
Speaker 8: that they have in California, which is just new and
Speaker 8: her you say, her medical costs are good, likely to
Speaker 8: exceed over ten thousand dollars. But the only problem is
Speaker 8: she's not from California.
Speaker 4: Yes, oh, you picked up on something really good here, buddy. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they had to move the laws around a little bit
Speaker 4: to make sure to try and get her benefits. But
Speaker 4: quite frankly, I'm just gonna say it, Okay, California did
Speaker 4: not do what did not do their job. You know,
Speaker 4: here's a woman who the crime is committed in in California,
Speaker 4: and she's going to need new arms. And now again
Speaker 4: we're talking. You know, this is seventy eight, so we're
Speaker 4: talking what is that many years ago? Is that forty
Speaker 4: years ago? Right? It's almost forty years ago. Now. Of
Speaker 4: course the technology has changed since then. But the bottom
Speaker 4: line is nobody came forward to really give her help.
Speaker 4: In fact, it was only you know, as we're talking
Speaker 4: about it. When I was reading the book again, I
Speaker 4: was laughing because there's a section in the book where
Speaker 4: what happens is I mentioned that Jamie Summers flew in.
Speaker 4: Jamie Summers was the Bionic Woman, which was a TV
Speaker 4: show at NBC, and the actress who played the part
Speaker 4: flew in to help her out. And the Bionic Woman,
Speaker 4: of course that bionic limbs. And the bottom line here
Speaker 4: is that I don't know, there's no evidence that anybody
Speaker 4: in the entertainment business, anybody in government there, industry, etc.
Speaker 4: Came forward to help her get new limbs. And in fact,
Speaker 4: at that point the technology was the same as what
Speaker 4: had gone on in World War Two. Some people may
Speaker 4: remember a movie called The Best Years of Our Lives
Speaker 4: in which Harold Russell wins. The Oscar is bereft of
Speaker 4: his arms because of an accident in World War Two.
Speaker 4: He's a soldier, and he gets cooks for arms. Well,
Speaker 4: this is basically what happened with Mary Vinsk And not
Speaker 4: only that, what was so said.
Speaker 8: Is that.
Speaker 4: They forget about the technology, the the the artificial limbs
Speaker 4: that they give her. They don't last. So she's got
Speaker 4: problems with them, and you don't see anybody coming forward
Speaker 4: two help her. Now, I don't know what you know.
Speaker 4: I haven't looked it up. I guess I should have.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm Mary at this point would probably be
Speaker 4: in about fifty so, but I don't know if she's
Speaker 4: ever gotten anything better than what she had. And that's
Speaker 4: that's just it's not only said, but it's wrong, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean, it's it's it's wrong. And so
Speaker 4: here's this. Then I write that she's been denied a future.
Speaker 4: What this guy took away from her was a future.
Speaker 4: And I mean, look at what's his name, the guy
Speaker 4: in what's his name? You know, the guy in South Africa,
Speaker 4: you know, the convicted murderer. The guy's had artificial limbs,
Speaker 4: you know, really sophisticated. But this woman didn't have that advantage,
Speaker 4: and I don't know why people didn't come forward at
Speaker 4: that time, and I don't know what's happened since, so
Speaker 4: I have to be very frank about that. But I
Speaker 4: do know that by the time we get to the
Speaker 4: late nineties when Singleton and we're getting ahead here, is
Speaker 4: eventually tried for another crime. She's in the same situation.
Speaker 4: And I'm only going back that nineteen or eighteen years,
Speaker 4: so she doesn't have a very sophisticated set of artificial limbs.
Speaker 8: Now she has to go to the grand jury. Grand
Speaker 8: jury doesn't take much to get an indictment for this guy.
Speaker 8: Tell us what the outcome of the trial is. And
Speaker 8: the most interesting part of this because we already know
Speaker 8: that Valuda do that he got out to do this again,
Speaker 8: So how on earth what is he charged with? And
Speaker 8: what kind of sun So let's get to what the
Speaker 8: outcome is. That's we know what would happen, But how
Speaker 8: what are the conditioned? What are the rules? How is
Speaker 8: it that what's he charged with? First?
Speaker 4: Well, the grand jury, which in the United States is
Speaker 4: a lot individuals that get together their voters and they
Speaker 4: get together in a big room and grand juries in
Speaker 4: the United States are generally manipulated by the prosecutor. In
Speaker 4: other words, if the prosecutor wants to get an indictment,
Speaker 4: it's pretty easy to get on. You know, it's rubber stamped.
Speaker 4: I don't know how it works in other places, you know,
Speaker 4: but I just want to explain that.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 4: So now here's what happens. Dan. They charge Singleton with
Speaker 4: a it's a variety of charges, everything from sexual assault
Speaker 4: to physical assault. And that's where it gets interesting. In
Speaker 4: other words, there is no there's nothing in the law then,
Speaker 4: and I suspect now where you know, you charge somebody,
Speaker 4: there's nothing that's you know, when you say, oh, okay,
Speaker 4: you cut off somebody's arms, blah blah blah ah, it's
Speaker 4: physical assault. So the idea is that they're going to
Speaker 4: charge him and and then you know, and the grand
Speaker 4: jury comes in with their indict and it's physical assault,
Speaker 4: sexual assault essentially. You know, there's it's a number of charges,
Speaker 4: attempted murder, and then it's going to go to trial.
Speaker 4: And in California history, you know, these things change over
Speaker 4: the years. But there were some limitations regarding what they
Speaker 4: could convict them on, and most importantly, what the sentence
Speaker 4: would be see and that's where it gets really interesting,
Speaker 4: because you know, you can't change a law just because
Speaker 4: somebody does something. I mean, you can change it subsequently,
Speaker 4: but the fact that he cut off her arms doesn't
Speaker 4: mean that you can then say, Okay, he cut off
Speaker 4: her arms, she should get life. Well, I don't think
Speaker 4: most of us would say that would be unreasonable, but
Speaker 4: you can't change the laws. So basically it's you know,
Speaker 4: it's a certain amount of years behind bars. And in fact,
Speaker 4: the most the guy can get at the time, in
Speaker 4: the late seventies in California, and admittedly, folks, California is
Speaker 4: a liberal state, the most this dude can get is
Speaker 4: fourteen years behind bars. That's the most if the jury
Speaker 4: convicts on all charges.
Speaker 8: At the same time, you've put though that in reals
Speaker 8: with good behavior, it's a spider any of this past
Speaker 8: record in terms of this crime and the heinous nature.
Speaker 8: He can be out in eight years on good behavior.
Speaker 8: That's the maximum he can do.
Speaker 4: Correct, Dan, you know that this was an education for me.
Speaker 4: I mean again, I you know, one day we should
Speaker 4: have a discussion how this works. In Canada, Australia, Germany,
Speaker 4: et cetera. England. But yes, with good behavior, not only
Speaker 4: good behavior, like if he does certain jobs behind bars,
Speaker 4: he gets credits so you can get out. So in
Speaker 4: other words, the bottom line is, here's a guy who, again,
Speaker 4: ladies and gentlemen, it's the late seventies. He rapes a
Speaker 4: fifteen old girl, he cuts off her arms. He gets
Speaker 4: sentenced to fourteen years, and if he's a good guy
Speaker 4: behind bars, he'll be out in eight And that's what happens.
Speaker 4: He because he is a merchant marine one of the reasons, certainly,
Speaker 4: and he's used to discipline. He is a model prisoner,
Speaker 4: and because he's in great shape, nobody's gonna mess with him.
Speaker 4: You know, this is not a guy that's going to
Speaker 4: you know, nobody's gonna mess with him.
Speaker 8: And so.
Speaker 4: He gets out in the middle nineteen eighties. That when
Speaker 4: I say gets out, I mean he gets parole. What
Speaker 4: happens from that point is another story.
Speaker 8: This is one of the most unique stories I've ever
Speaker 8: read in terms of somebody getting out and being forced
Speaker 8: again tell us what he was forced to do or
Speaker 8: the government was forced to do and why. I mean,
Speaker 8: it's again right out of set. You know, is this
Speaker 8: a modern day lynch potential. So tell us about this.
Speaker 4: Sure, Dan, you know it's funny is I was writing
Speaker 4: it and again as I was reading it again, it
Speaker 4: reminds me of the Old West. And you know what
Speaker 4: happens is the die comes up for parole and it's
Speaker 4: a big deal because the question becomes, where's he going
Speaker 4: to go? It's a celebrated case within California and it's
Speaker 4: getting headlines across the United States. I mean, for god's sakes,
Speaker 4: eight years for cutting off a young girl, rolls arms
Speaker 4: and rape, and now they're gonna let him go. They're
Speaker 4: gonna let him go, and the then and so the
Speaker 4: question then becomes, Okay, where's he gonna go? Well, they
Speaker 4: start saying, well, we'll send him back to where he
Speaker 4: came from the county in California. Next thing that county says,
Speaker 4: are you kidding? We don't want him. And as the
Speaker 4: state tries to find a place to place him, to
Speaker 4: place him, each venue says, hey, buddy, he's not coming
Speaker 4: over here. Well, eventually what happens is, now you know
Speaker 4: the one you know, there's a date. Can't keep somebody
Speaker 4: at least then you couldn't keep somebody in prison. Beyond
Speaker 4: a certain date. So now they got to release him then.
Speaker 4: So the next thing you know, he's they're moving them around,
Speaker 4: ladies and gentlemen. They're moving them around, on taxpayer money,
Speaker 4: from town to town in northern California. And what happens
Speaker 4: is at one point he's in one of these towns
Speaker 4: and they're keeping it quiet. I should mention this, but
Speaker 4: that's the most important thing. They're keeping it quiet because
Speaker 4: you know, it's understandable the state Parole Board doesn't want
Speaker 4: to know. I want people will know the man Chopper
Speaker 4: is in their venue. Well, people find out and at
Speaker 4: one point I've never seen this, actually I don't. I've
Speaker 4: never seen this in modern day. A lynch mob forms.
Speaker 4: He's in some place in northern California, whatever town, it's
Speaker 4: not important. The point is people find out that he's there.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, they show up, and you know, I
Speaker 4: was actually surprised when I read the accounts that nobody
Speaker 4: was carrying a rope. You know, I'm thinking to myself, geez,
Speaker 4: you know, trying to bring in the you know, the
Speaker 4: United States marshals. Well, that's not what happened. The locals
Speaker 4: are trying to take care of it. By themselves, and
Speaker 4: each venue, each town. Every time they tried to place
Speaker 4: him in town, a can be whatever, their lawyers would
Speaker 4: go into staate court and say, we don't want them,
Speaker 4: we're not going to take them. And they actually did
Speaker 4: have a lynch mob in one of these counts and
Speaker 4: they got them out and they you know, the the
Speaker 4: parole officers, and they took them someplace else. You know,
Speaker 4: they kept moving this dude around and of course this
Speaker 4: is you know, this is all being done on the
Speaker 4: public dollar. Singleton is you know, he's very happy, of
Speaker 4: course that he's at hell, you only heard eight years.
Speaker 4: So now the question becomes, okay, where do we put
Speaker 4: him so that people can't get to him? And should
Speaker 4: I explain what happens?
Speaker 8: Yes, what happens is.
Speaker 4: Somebody who's smart comes up with the idea, okay, let's
Speaker 4: put him on the grounds of San Quentin prism And
Speaker 4: the idea is they'll put him there and he'll have
Speaker 4: a separate residence. And again this is on public dollars,
Speaker 4: and he's actually free to move around but with his bodyguards,
Speaker 4: and they decide that he'll serve out the length of
Speaker 4: his parole there. And it's something like a year or two,
Speaker 4: whatever it is, and then once he's finished with that,
Speaker 4: he can go any place he wants to in the world.
Speaker 4: So that's the compromise that's reached. They'll put him essentially
Speaker 4: back behind prison walls for his own safety. Now, I've
Speaker 4: never seen anything like this, and I, ladies and gentlemen,
Speaker 4: I doubt we'll ever see anything like this again, and
Speaker 4: hopefully we don't and that, but that's what happens, you know.
Speaker 4: And so he's now behind San Quentin, this prison walls,
Speaker 4: and he's serving at his time there. And every once
Speaker 4: in a while, you know, it's late late seventies, he
Speaker 4: you know, he goes to the Oh no, it's not
Speaker 4: a late seventies, middle eighties, so you know, he goes
Speaker 4: to the movies and whatever, you know, you know, goes
Speaker 4: out to McDonald's. I pointed out in the book that
Speaker 4: it's you know, he's first introduced when he comes out
Speaker 4: to the microwave other you know, and uh, you know,
Speaker 4: so the guy winds up, the guy winds up serving
Speaker 4: out his parole time behind essentially behind prison walls, and
Speaker 4: then it gets really interesting. That's that for a segue.
Speaker 8: Yes, well, so now he has to eventually get out
Speaker 8: and again the the mob that almost got him. There's
Speaker 8: still this politically and practically, and the media and the
Speaker 8: informed public don't want him in California. So where does
Speaker 8: he end up in underwhite conditions?
Speaker 4: You mean, well, what happens is great question after he
Speaker 4: serves out his parole and you know, we're not you know,
Speaker 4: it's funny as we're talking about it right now. You know,
Speaker 4: it wasn't a long period of parole. You know, it's
Speaker 4: like a couple of years or something. And so what
Speaker 4: happens is he he's got to, uh, you know, where's
Speaker 4: he gonna go? And he's very aware. He's not a
Speaker 4: stupid guy. I believe he's a very smart guy. And
Speaker 4: the I you know, so where's he gonna go so
Speaker 4: that people don't keep coming after him, which they're doing
Speaker 4: in California. Well, his home is Tampa, Tampa, Florida. That
Speaker 4: this is the part that cracked me up in the
Speaker 4: book and in reality. So he's a laughed because he's
Speaker 4: a parole now. Dan. So according to the rules in California,
Speaker 4: he's allowed to go wherever he wants. So he's not
Speaker 4: he didn't go to Hawaii. He didn't go to Alaska,
Speaker 4: he didn't go to Jamaica, didn't go to Germany. And
Speaker 4: I said Germany because and Marie Acaman may be listening,
Speaker 4: my friend. And he goes to Tampa, Florida because that's
Speaker 4: where he comes from, and his family tries to help him,
Speaker 4: and he goes back home this is where he comes from.
Speaker 4: And one of his brothers buys him. She we should
Speaker 4: be so lucky. A really nice ranch house. Do you
Speaker 4: guys call the ranch house in Canada? By the way, sure, sure, okay,
Speaker 4: See Biden is small ranch house, and you know, in
Speaker 4: another way, ladies and gentlemen, it's one story and it's
Speaker 4: it's an orient park, which is not a nice particularly
Speaker 4: nice area, And he goes there to live, and he
Speaker 4: gets smart and he changes his name to I think
Speaker 4: it's Bill Johnson. The irony is that the name that
Speaker 4: he uses is the name of the One Armed Man
Speaker 4: and the old TV show The Fugitive g Go So
Speaker 4: the One Armed Man, ladies and gentlemen, And so he
Speaker 4: winds up moving there and he registers with the police.
Speaker 4: You know, he's you know, he's following the law, Dan,
Speaker 4: you know, and but he's going down hill and you know.
Speaker 4: The one thing we haven't touched on, and it's something
Speaker 4: I've seen in a lot of criminal cases. The dude
Speaker 4: had a lot of post traumatic stress syndrome from serving
Speaker 4: in combat. Number One, it was never dealt with. Why
Speaker 4: is it, I don't know, but that's true. It was
Speaker 4: never dealt with. The guy was an alcoholic. I'm not
Speaker 4: talking functioning alcoholic. I'm talking alcoholic. And they did not
Speaker 4: nobody require to attend AA meetings or anything of that nature. Okay.
Speaker 4: And so we have an individual with severe emotional and
Speaker 4: physical problems and for whatever reason, the system is not
Speaker 4: dealing with it. So he moves back to Tampa and
Speaker 4: oh boy, oh Dan, oh god. When I saw this
Speaker 4: when I wrote the book, there's a Yiddish expression I plotted.
Speaker 4: He moved to Gibsonton. Briefly, Gibsonton is where Lobster Boy
Speaker 4: takes place. He drank with Grady Styles junior Lobster Boy.
Speaker 8: Yeah. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's amazing, it's amazing, you know, I mean,
Speaker 4: it's amazing. And then and then what happened was that
Speaker 4: was initially and then the family, as I said, they
Speaker 4: bought him a place in Orient Park which I went to,
Speaker 4: and it was a very nice place, Dan, it was
Speaker 4: a very nice place. And I mean I didn't go
Speaker 4: in obviously, you know, but I couldn't do that. But
Speaker 4: it was really a nice place. And this is where
Speaker 4: he would live. And he changed his name, as I
Speaker 4: said to Bill Johnson, So his neighbors knew him by
Speaker 4: that name. However, they some of them knew his reputation.
Speaker 4: But he was a very good neighbor. He was into dogs,
Speaker 4: which some of us are, et cetera, et cetera. So
Speaker 4: now we're talking about a dude who is in his
Speaker 4: early sixties, who's a convicted sex offender, convicted of attempted
Speaker 4: murder in other charges, and he's on social Security. Do
Speaker 4: you guys have social securities? Yes, thank you, listen. I
Speaker 4: don't know. I got to ask the question. You know,
Speaker 4: I know I get off the track sometimes, but by
Speaker 4: the way, I gotta tell you, I know I'm getting
Speaker 4: off track. Sorry, but I didn't know Justin Trudeau was
Speaker 4: a liberal. Nobody told me, Dan. So anyway, here's what happens.
Speaker 4: He he starts acting out again. It's very interesting. He
Speaker 4: starts acting out again. That is, he starts stealing stuff,
Speaker 4: and so so here we got a guy. You know,
Speaker 4: we've talked all about what the dude did. Next thing.
Speaker 4: You know, he's stealing, you know, he's what he called shoplifting, shoplifting,
Speaker 4: you know, and it's unbelievable stuff because at one point
Speaker 4: he shopped lifts a couple of times. You know what happens.
Speaker 4: They give him two years two years. You know, I
Speaker 4: don't understand the systems sometimes, you know, what do you
Speaker 4: got to do to put the guy away for life?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: You know, he rapes somebody, he takes over her arms,
Speaker 4: gets throll, goes back to his hometown shop, lifts a
Speaker 4: couple of times. They put him in jail, blah blah blah,
Speaker 4: gets two years, gets out again, and you know it's
Speaker 4: you know, I understand, Look, I know, you know this
Speaker 4: is not a science fiction film with Tom Cruise. I
Speaker 4: realize that we don't know what's going to happen in
Speaker 4: the future. But man, when you look at what we're
Speaker 4: talking about here, you know something's going to go down.
Speaker 4: So he gets out after two years, and that sets
Speaker 4: up what's going to happen next.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about the perfect storm. Here a confluence
Speaker 8: of events, and anyway, he meets this Roxanne Roxy Hayes,
Speaker 8: one of the most back of the women that was
Speaker 8: working the streets, six foot seventy pounds. She had met
Speaker 8: him before, they had exchanged, they'd done business before. She
Speaker 8: was not apprehensive about him at all. And then we
Speaker 8: have a guy named Jean Reynolds. So tell us what
Speaker 8: happens because we want to still talk about something else tonight.
Speaker 8: That's very, very important. So tell us quickly what happens.
Speaker 8: What does Gene Reynolds find out? What happens?
Speaker 4: Well, first of Jen Reynolds is a pseudonym. But what
Speaker 4: happens here is this Larry Singleton picks up Roxanne Hayes,
Speaker 4: and he's already done business with her before. She's she's
Speaker 4: a prostitute, she's married. I'm sorry, no, sir, she's not married.
Speaker 4: She's living with an individual. She has a couple of kids.
Speaker 4: And so what happens is he picks they've they've already
Speaker 4: done business before. He picks her up to his house,
Speaker 4: the one we mentioned earlier, and during their interaction she
Speaker 4: asks for more money because the price of cocaine had
Speaker 4: gone up and she was an addict that leads. I'll
Speaker 4: just say it. It leads to murder. He takes he
Speaker 4: takes a knife and he it's pretty awful. He starts
Speaker 4: stabbing her with a knife. And Gene Reynolds aside from
Speaker 4: the fact he's one of the creators of mash that's
Speaker 4: the reason I use the name. He's a neighbor and
Speaker 4: he hears the promotion and he sees he looks through
Speaker 4: the window when he sees Singleton with his arm going
Speaker 4: up and down on this woman. And what he doesn't
Speaker 4: realize is in his arm is a knife. He's stamping
Speaker 4: her to death. It's very sad. And at that point
Speaker 4: they he calls the cops, and because there's a change
Speaker 4: of shift, it takes them at least thirty minutes to
Speaker 4: get a car respond. And what happens is when the
Speaker 4: car ladies and gentlemen. You can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 4: That's why it's true crime. When the cop comes to
Speaker 4: the door and knocks on the door, Oh yeah, Singleton
Speaker 4: shows Singleton opens the door. He's naked and where's he's
Speaker 4: got blood all over him and he's where and naked
Speaker 4: and he's wearing their condom. Okay, he's wearing a condom
Speaker 4: and and Singleton actually tries to con the officer not
Speaker 4: to come into the dissals, but the officer of course
Speaker 4: does the right thing.
Speaker 8: The goes in.
Speaker 4: He finds Roxannes dead, you know, in the living room.
Speaker 4: Stay up to death. That will eventually lead to Singleton
Speaker 4: being tried and convicted for murder one in Florida, sentenced
Speaker 4: to death because Florida is a death penalty.
Speaker 8: Yes, and incredibly what you include. And again we're gonna
Speaker 8: have to leave almost our readers or our listeners just
Speaker 8: hanging here a little bit. But this is an electric
Speaker 8: chair trial. This story still is very involved and also
Speaker 8: the most poignant, profound moment is Mary Vincent with her
Speaker 8: hooks at Larry Singleton in the eye at trial. It's
Speaker 8: a fascinating There's still more fascinating information we could impart.
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much for talking about
Speaker 8: the Mad Chopper. We also talked before this show. You
Speaker 8: have some breaking news and maybe you can introduce our
Speaker 8: next guest.
Speaker 4: I answer up. Before we get to that, I just
Speaker 4: want to tell the listeners I look after you dudes,
Speaker 4: and do debts tomorrow. This book is on sale for
Speaker 4: a dollar ninety nine at Amazon for e book. I
Speaker 4: just want to let you know this, So don't buy
Speaker 4: it tonight if you want to. If you want to
Speaker 4: buy it, do it tomorrow. Okay, just want to let
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 8: Go ahead in Yeah, that's very good. Now there's a
Speaker 8: story that you have been working on and you're very
Speaker 8: very passionate about involving James Brown. So why don't you
Speaker 8: just introduce a little bit about what you're working on
Speaker 8: and who you're working with, and introduce our next guest.
Speaker 8: And I'm sure has called in, yes, sir.
Speaker 4: What happened was over a year ago. I got contacted
Speaker 4: through Facebook. A friend on Facebook told me about Jackie Hollander.
Speaker 4: Jackie spells her name jay z ju Uie, just like
Speaker 4: Jackline Kennedy. And what happened was Jackie had been James
Speaker 4: Brown's the godfather Saul a music producer is music producer
Speaker 4: rather and Jackie in nineteen on April first, nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 4: was raped by Brown very brutally, and and so I
Speaker 4: was contacted by somebody. We started chatting. We decided to
Speaker 4: do a book. Jackie became a tremendous advocate for rape victims,
Speaker 4: which we can talk about more. Bottom line is why
Speaker 4: we were working on our story. She started telling me
Speaker 4: all these details about James Brown's death in two thousand
Speaker 4: and six, and as it turns out, As it turns out,
Speaker 4: it wasn't what the death certificate says, which is that
Speaker 4: he died from pneumonia. Didn't happen, folks, And and we
Speaker 4: can we'll talk about that, but bottom line is Jackie
Speaker 4: had been very influential with mister Brown in terms of
Speaker 4: establishing the I Feel Good Trust for under privileged children.
Speaker 4: And the idea was that when he died, the majority
Speaker 4: of his estate, which was one hundred million dollars, would
Speaker 4: go to that trust. Well that's not what happened. And
Speaker 4: so I got very passionate, as you say about it,
Speaker 4: because not only didn't that happen, but because Jackie became
Speaker 4: a detective essentially to try and solve Brown's suspicious death
Speaker 4: so that the trust could be reinstated because the trust
Speaker 4: was broken by Brown's family. So we got an involved
Speaker 4: and that sort of led us to the point that
Speaker 4: we're at now. I hope I simmarized it.
Speaker 8: Okay, yes, I think. So I want to introduce Jackie
Speaker 8: Hollander to the program.
Speaker 5: Are you on the air, Jackie, Hi, Dan, It's really
Speaker 5: good to get to talk to you. Heard so much
Speaker 5: about you.
Speaker 8: Well, thank you very much, Thank you very much. Now
Speaker 8: we have only a few minutes left. We have eight
Speaker 8: or nine minutes left in the program. But what can
Speaker 8: you tell us, because I know there are some things
Speaker 8: that you are not willing to tell us right now.
Speaker 8: But what can you tell us about the state of
Speaker 8: the case just in the last few days in terms
Speaker 8: of development, What can you tell us about any new
Speaker 8: developments on what you're doing and who you're speaking to.
Speaker 8: Tell us what you can about the new developments in
Speaker 8: this case.
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, I think you know. I think Fred has
Speaker 5: shared with you that I came across a bunch of
Speaker 5: evidence and it's taken about a year for all of
Speaker 5: this to come to fruition. But I don't want to
Speaker 5: say and use the word investigation by the police. But
Speaker 5: I'm just letting them do their job right now, and
Speaker 5: I don't want to break too much about it. But
Speaker 5: I can tell you that law enforcement has stepped in
Speaker 5: and I put it in their hands and also in
Speaker 5: God's hands.
Speaker 8: Now, you were involved with James Brown, and Fred has
Speaker 8: told us about this assault at the same time. Though,
Speaker 8: the big part of this case, as I understand it too,
Speaker 8: is that and Fred had mentioned it too, is that
Speaker 8: James Brown, because of his background, had certain concerns for
Speaker 8: children and had set up this fund. So tell us
Speaker 8: a little bit more about this trust fund.
Speaker 5: Basically, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Basically
Speaker 5: I started the trust with him. I came up with
Speaker 5: the idea for it, the I Feel Good Trust, and
Speaker 5: even came up with the name. When I met James Brown,
Speaker 5: he really did not do a lot of charity work,
Speaker 5: and that was my forte and James and I became
Speaker 5: fifty to fifty partners and we did. I have just
Speaker 5: cases full of the benefits that we did to raise
Speaker 5: money for children from Scottish right all the way across
Speaker 5: the board. And he had told me that when he died,
Speaker 5: everything would go into the trust that we built, the
Speaker 5: I Feel Good Trust. I think it's very clear that
Speaker 5: if you read Buddy Dallas's Zepha David, it says I
Speaker 5: am the fifty to fifty partner. He was the lawyer
Speaker 5: for James Brown for thirty years and he was there
Speaker 5: when we did every things. So yeah, you know it
Speaker 5: unfortunately agreed and it is to have been taken control
Speaker 5: of by the State of South Carolina and a lot
Speaker 5: of crop lawyers and hence not one child has received
Speaker 5: one penny in ten years.
Speaker 4: Wow, not long now.
Speaker 8: The idea is the idea that that you're what we
Speaker 8: for our audience, is that this trust fund is at
Speaker 8: odds with James Brown's biological children and other people that
Speaker 8: he has has has had relationships with.
Speaker 5: If he could explain, well, mister Brown had a wife
Speaker 5: that really wasn't a wife who was married to another
Speaker 5: man from Pakistan. She gave birth to a child which
Speaker 5: she claims is James Brown. But as a rape victim. Uh,
Speaker 5: when I got raped by James Brown, I mister Brown
Speaker 5: had to later showed that there was no way he
Speaker 5: could have gotten me pregnant. Mister Brown had had a vasectomy.
Speaker 5: I now have come across another video footage clip of
Speaker 5: an interview that after he married this woman who claims
Speaker 5: to be the mother of this child, he's now had
Speaker 5: two vasectomies, one in the eighties and one in the nineties.
Speaker 5: And two vasectomies, you can't have a child. Plus he
Speaker 5: had diabetes and he had cancer in the gonads, and
Speaker 5: I mean you add all of that up together, there's
Speaker 5: no way. But they have given this woman all kinds
Speaker 5: of carte blanche because of her power, connect her connections
Speaker 5: to people.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a big in terms of it.
Speaker 5: It's probably one of the largest cover ups ever in
Speaker 5: the United States of America, involving millions of dollars.
Speaker 8: Now, you also talk about the children not receiving anything
Speaker 8: from James Brown, and is there any contributing factor in
Speaker 8: this from those children as well?
Speaker 4: Are you talking about his children?
Speaker 8: Are you talking his children?
Speaker 4: Well, his children, his children.
Speaker 5: His children just want the money for themselves. They have recently,
Speaker 5: after they have caused such a commotion for ten years,
Speaker 5: finally done a little settlement. It said, they want their
Speaker 5: father's wishes honored. But of course it's a little hard
Speaker 5: to honor his wishes when they've spent ten years seeing
Speaker 5: to it that his wishes were not granted. I mean,
Speaker 5: this is a man that is buried in his daughter's
Speaker 5: backyard when his wishes were to be buried by his parents.
Speaker 4: May I add, Dan, Dan, that's illegal. Yes, Jackie's correct.
Speaker 5: He's not buried, he's in and above ground, above the ground.
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't even know if you call it
Speaker 4: it soon. But the most important point here is this
Speaker 4: when he died, even though he'd gone to the hospital
Speaker 4: initially with a diagnosis of a drug overdose and was
Speaker 4: scheduled to be released Christmas Day two thousand and six,
Speaker 4: and he was supposed to be one hundred percent. Next thing,
Speaker 4: you know, the guy dies. The death certificate says it's pneumonia,
Speaker 4: and the family, according to the records, consisted no autopsy
Speaker 4: be performed.
Speaker 5: Wanted the daughter did Yama Brown insisted no autopsy on
Speaker 5: one And this is the most famous man in the
Speaker 5: world as far as soul music. And CNN ran his
Speaker 5: funeral for two weeks, and we had Saddam Hussein die
Speaker 5: and we had Gerald Ford died, and they took a
Speaker 5: back seat to a twenty four hour service going on
Speaker 5: on CNN in every other station.
Speaker 4: That's really interesting. Even I didn't know that.
Speaker 5: Wow, well I did, because unfortunately my phone rang off
Speaker 5: the hook. I was in the Supreme Court with James
Speaker 5: Brown when he died.
Speaker 4: You know what had I I just want to mention
Speaker 4: the Jackie's case. She sued Brown for rape in the
Speaker 4: United States Supreme Court and they agreed to take her case.
Speaker 4: But what happened was when Brown died, the case died,
Speaker 4: except the president was set okay. And so since then,
Speaker 4: many individuals have used the president to sue their rapists
Speaker 4: in federal court, which I think is pretty damn interesting.
Speaker 4: And I will also yeah, and I would also mention
Speaker 4: something else after Brown dies, Jackie who lives in Illinois,
Speaker 4: You're gonna love this part. Dame uh, the Governor's of
Speaker 4: broad Blagoovic, the dude that tried that, was convicted of
Speaker 4: trying to sell Barack Obamas Senate seat and is in
Speaker 4: federal prison. Well this get this. Then Jackie campaigned to
Speaker 4: extend a statute of limitations for reporting the crime of
Speaker 4: rape in the state of Illinois, succeeded, and Blagoovich signed
Speaker 4: that into law before he goes into jail. So there
Speaker 4: were people today who have been who have used Jackie's law,
Speaker 4: which is what it's called, to bring their rapists to justice,
Speaker 4: which I think is sort of interesting.
Speaker 5: On across the United States of America. I mean it
Speaker 5: in twenty ten, it essentially was the law that caused
Speaker 5: the priest to come down. However, I talked with a
Speaker 5: lot of priests and when I did it in twenty
Speaker 5: ten in Illinois, you saw a lot of priests being
Speaker 5: exposed in people coming forward on my law. And then
Speaker 5: of course it went across the United States and now
Speaker 5: they're using it everywhere. I'm being told they are using
Speaker 5: it on Trump, which makes it really difficult. Difficult, she's walker,
Speaker 5: I'm very difficult.
Speaker 4: She's talking now before political belief.
Speaker 8: Huh No, we won't need you to do that, I think.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 8: I just wanted to ask before we let you go,
Speaker 8: just where you are at in terms of cooperation from police?
Speaker 8: How again, not giving anything away, but where are you
Speaker 8: in terms of the cooperation from them listening to your
Speaker 8: version of Is is there any development in that area?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: I think that changed a little. It's been very difficult.
Speaker 5: As you know, I'm traveling and I am with a circus,
Speaker 5: and I'm actually in a show tonight getting dressed for
Speaker 5: that show. So it's hard when you're traveling. And of
Speaker 5: course I've had a lot of death threats from the
Speaker 5: Brown camp and which has made it difficult. And when
Speaker 5: you're traveling, it's hard to do all of this. But
Speaker 5: Fred and I have been very vigilant, and there are
Speaker 5: days I'll admit where I want to quit. You know,
Speaker 5: I think you know i'm his victim, and yet I
Speaker 5: also remember the James Brown prior to what happened to me,
Speaker 5: So I know both sides. I know the good side
Speaker 5: and the bad side of him. And that still doesn't
Speaker 5: give people an offered, you know, an open cart blanche
Speaker 5: to do away with someone's life. So I think it's
Speaker 5: important for history, important for the trust that's you know,
Speaker 5: one hundred million dollars that should be going to the
Speaker 5: poor and needy children across our country. I think it's
Speaker 5: very important that the truth does come out and that
Speaker 5: you know, I'm one of these people that say let
Speaker 5: the dominoes fall.
Speaker 8: Absolutely very interesting your situation and then your for again
Speaker 8: what you what you say, and is the truth, the
Speaker 8: absolute truth about what happens with James bround the good
Speaker 8: and the bad and the ugly and the truth right.
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much for and very applaudable,
Speaker 8: laudable uh fight that you are in campaign. So the
Speaker 8: best of luck to you and the very dedicated and
Speaker 8: thank you so much, Fred Rosen So I'm sure you'll
Speaker 8: get somewhere with this as well.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 5: We have our days. I mean, you know, this has
Speaker 5: become like a marriage, and I have my days where
Speaker 5: I'm more like a witch, and you know, I'm sure
Speaker 5: Fred cringes and then and then there's days where I cringe.
Speaker 5: So it's a really tight knit working relationship that we're
Speaker 5: bouncing ideas off of each other all the time. And
Speaker 5: the same as in music. I mean, it's it's two
Speaker 5: writers together and and it's a hard it's a hard story.
Speaker 5: And he undertook a really big, a really big mountain
Speaker 5: with this when it wasn't just here's the evidence and
Speaker 5: this is where it's all going to lie. He's had
Speaker 5: to really learn, and he's had to learn thirty years.
Speaker 5: That's a lot to put in anybody's brain in just
Speaker 5: a short time.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, I want to thank you very much Jackie Hollander
Speaker 8: for coming on and talking about this, and I'm sure
Speaker 8: we'll be back again in the near future talking about
Speaker 8: this and then when you fully realize this into a
Speaker 8: full book with Fred Rosen and be very exciting to
Speaker 8: hear this and know this background story. I want to
Speaker 8: thank you very much Fred for coming on and talking
Speaker 8: again about the Mad Chopper and the latest development of
Speaker 8: the James Brown story. For those people that might want
Speaker 8: to contact you, how might they do that? You have
Speaker 8: a Facebook page? How might they contact you? Fred?
Speaker 4: People can conact our action. People can contact me through
Speaker 4: my Facebook page. And I'm gonna be doing a blog
Speaker 4: pretty soon, but right now slate Facebook page. And I
Speaker 4: simply would like to say, I have so much humility
Speaker 4: should be on with you, Dan, and I thank you
Speaker 4: so much for your support. There is no I don't
Speaker 4: have any words, just thank you, sir well.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. Fred. It is always an honor
Speaker 8: and a pleasure to have you on the program. And
Speaker 8: I'm excited when Fred Rosen is excited because I know
Speaker 8: something great is going to be turned up and turned
Speaker 8: into something very exciting, very much like the Matt Chopper tonight.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much, Jackie Hollander and Frank thank you
Speaker 8: very much, Fred Rosen. Hope to talk to you again.
Speaker 8: To both of you real soon. Have a great eva.
Speaker 4: Go lad got tonut you Dan, Audio smoothatcho good My
Speaker 4: friend Fiven