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True Murder with your host, 33 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.519 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 34 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:47.840 Good evening from veteran true crime master Harold Scheckter comes 35 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.640 a unique look into the history of crime gold through 36 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:54.239 the dark objects left behind. The false teeth of a 37 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.959 female serial killer from nineteen oh eight, the cotton paste 38 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.159 confession of the Black Dahly, the newly cracked cipher of 39 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:06.120 the Zodiac killer, the shotgun used in the Clutter Family murders, 40 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:09.759 which were made famous by Truman Capoti's true crime classic 41 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.240 in Cold Blood. These are more than simple artifacts that 42 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:18.719 once belong to notorious murderers. They are objects of fascination 43 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:22.879 to the legion of true crime obsessives around the world, 44 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:26.639 and not merely for fleeting dark thrills, but because they 45 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.360 represent a way to better understand those we typically label 46 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.840 monsters in lieu of learning how they actually became one. 47 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:39.639 In murder Abelia, veteran true crime writer Harold Scheckter presents 48 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.599 one hundred murder related artifacts spanning two centuries eighteen oh 49 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:49.800 eight to twenty fourteen, with accompanying stories of various links 50 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:54.120 a visual and literary journey, It presents a history unlike 51 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:57.639 any previously told in the true crime genre, one that 52 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:00.960 speaks to the dark fascination of true crime fans, while 53 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:05.680 also presenting a larger historical timeline of how and why 54 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:09.439 we continue to be captivated by the most sensational crimes 55 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.759 and killers among us. The book that we're featuring this 56 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:17.800 evening is Murderabilia, A History of Crime in one hundred Objects, 57 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:24.120 with my special guest, American crime historian and author Harold Scheckter. 58 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.280 Welcome to the program, Harold Scheckter. 59 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.919 Very pleased to be here. Good to talk to you again. Dan. 60 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.000 It's always a great pleasure. Harold, thank you so much 61 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:36.319 for coming on the program and talking about your latest book, 62 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:37.439 murder Abelia. 63 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:41.080 Well, thank you. Very proud of the book. The murder 64 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:46.159 Abelia subtitle A History of Crime and one hundred Objects, 65 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.919 And I've been very interested in the phenomenon of murder 66 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.000 abelia for quite a while. I've kind of mentioned it 67 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.719 in other books I've written. Yes, this is the first 68 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:57.560 time I've devoted a whole book to it. 69 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.080 Now, you right, you're a historian American crime. You have 70 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:04.319 long been intrigued by this phenomenon, but some people have 71 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:08.520 decried it as a symptom of modern culture of degeneracy. 72 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.759 You defend this well, first of all, to define the 73 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.360 term for listeners who potentially might not know what it means. 74 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:23.399 Murder abelia refers to collectible items, mementoes, souvenirs related to 75 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:29.920 very sensational murder cases. And the term was actually coined 76 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:35.480 by a guy named Andy Kahan who works He's in 77 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:39.560 Houston and he's kind of a victim's advocate who works 78 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:43.600 with a police department. And years ago John Walsh, you 79 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.959 know John Walsh, Yes, very well known for the program 80 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.720 of America's Most Wanted. You know, he got involved with 81 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:55.079 all this crime stuff after suffering this horrendous tragedy where 82 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.560 his son Adam was abducted from a shopping mall and 83 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.839 ended up being murd by one of the countries most 84 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:09.040 loathsome serial killers. It's honest, tool companion of Henry ly Lucas. 85 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:13.399 But for a while John Walsh had a afternoon talk 86 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:16.800 show and I was invited to be on it with 87 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:21.600 a few people, including Andy Kahan and Andy when I 88 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.160 talked about seeing murder abilia is a symptom of the 89 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:29.279 degeneracy of contemporary culture, you know, that's kind of the 90 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:34.160 way Andy Cahn's right, was very antagonistic, and of course, 91 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:36.800 you know, from his point of view and from the 92 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:39.959 point of view of the victims of these crimes, you know, 93 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.560 there is something obviously kind of reprehensible about this. But 94 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.560 I was there to point out that it wasn't really 95 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:52.160 in any way just a contemporary phenomenon that if you 96 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:56.639 look back, there have always been. There's always been this 97 00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:02.800 appetite among people who own suvars that are connected to 98 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:07.000 these very sensational murders. You know, some of the examples 99 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:10.360 I gave, I had given the introduction. There was a 100 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:14.279 very very famous British murder called the Red Barn Murder, 101 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.759 in which this young woman named Maria Martin was seduced 102 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.800 and impregnated by a guy who promised to marry her. 103 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:26.079 This is kind of a common, all too common kind 104 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.560 of crime. Yeah, and we did somewhere and he killed 105 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.839 her and he buried her in this barn. I was 106 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.759 known locally as the Red Barn. And part of what 107 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.680 made the story so sensation was that Maria's mother had 108 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.480 a dream that her daughter had been killed. You know, 109 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:48.040 she just disappeared Maria, Yes, and supposedly, you know, the 110 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:52.079 guy who murdered her told everybody that you know, he 111 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:53.839 had taken it off and made an honest woman of 112 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.000 her and married her, and she was living somewhere else. 113 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.000 After a while, when Marie's mother didn't hear anything from her, 114 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.879 her daughter became suspicious and then she had a dream 115 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:04.839 that the Maria had been killed and was buried in 116 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.439 this barn, and they when some people went to look, 117 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.439 and sure enough, they dug up her body. And you know, 118 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.879 as is often the case, I mean it remains the case, 119 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.959 huge crowds to send it on the side of the 120 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.680 murder and you know, started breaking apart pieces of the 121 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.199 barn and taking back as souvenirs. And then when they 122 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:29.360 finally hung the murderer, guy named Quarter. One of the 123 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:32.120 perks of being a hangman of those days was you 124 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:36.279 got to keep the rope and you know, these executions 125 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:40.040 would cut the ropes into little pieces and sell them 126 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:45.920 to spectators as souvenirs. And also quarter was dissected, which 127 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:51.480 was one of the punishments those executed murders. And some 128 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.759 of his skin was flaid off his body and it 129 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.240 was tent and made into tobacco pouch. You know. Stuff 130 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:03.360 like that happened. There's another famous case, these two William 131 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.439 Burke and William Hare. Burke and Hair the sort of 132 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:11.079 known as grave robbers, but they didn't they actually rob graves. 133 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:15.279 This was in Scotland and Edinburgh and it was a 134 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:18.040 big center of medical schools, and again there was a 135 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:22.560 shortage of cadavers for anatomy classes and a lot of 136 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:27.079 these physicians would pay grave robbers to provide them with corpses. 137 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:31.040 So Burke and Hair, you know, discovered that it was 138 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.720 easy just to murder people and pass them off is 139 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:36.759 the corpses of the newly dead, and get paid for them. 140 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.759 And when they were finally captured and Burke was executed, 141 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.840 the same thing happened with Burkey. Somebody flayed off some 142 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.960 of his skin, tanned it and made it into a pocketbook. 143 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:50.159 Not a pocketbook in the sense of a purse, but 144 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:53.600 a pocketbook and the sense of little notebook that people 145 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.960 carried in their doctors carried in their pockets. There's actually 146 00:08:57.159 --> 00:09:03.559 a photograph of the Burk notebook in my book. So anyway, 147 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.480 point being, you know, this is a phenomenon that, as 148 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:09.559 far as you know, has always existed. And in the 149 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:11.720 introduction of my book, you know, I kind of speculate 150 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.399 a little bit about what the attraction of owning this 151 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:21.200 kind of macabre artifact might be, and you know, I 152 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:23.840 kind of see it in some way as being related 153 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.200 to saints relics, sort of the flip side what a 154 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.919 youngion would call the shadow side of a Saints relic, 155 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.399 And just as a Saint relic, you know, contains this 156 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:42.159 resonates with this holy power. The murder Abelia resonates with 157 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:46.840 this unholy power which exerts its own kind of dark attraction. 158 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:50.840 So you know, sure there are other other factors involved, 159 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.919 but yeah, I mean, that's that's what I that's what 160 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.279 I try to establish in the introduction, that the phenomenon 161 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.519 has always existed. Now it days, of course, you could 162 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.159 go online. There are these sites where you can buy 163 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.279 a sock puppet made by Charles s billins in order 164 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.080 you can buy all this stuff. You know, that's really 165 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:14.120 the only difference between now and then is the easy 166 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:17.919 accessibility of this stuff. But the desire to own these 167 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:21.159 kinds of artifacts goes way way, way way back, and 168 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.039 again the impulse that leads somebody to want to own it. 169 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.360 And I think it's complicated, but I think for these deep, 170 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:34.080 most superstitious reasons that people want to own these things. 171 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:34.519 Right. 172 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:40.200 You say too that before crime scenes were contained by police, 173 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.639 people just carted off valuable evidence and also what they 174 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:46.159 might consider souvenirs. 175 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.639 Oh yeah, absolutely, As I said with the Red Barn, 176 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:54.120 also with the case of the Vendor family in Kansas 177 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:57.240 and the late nineteen hundreds also covered in my book. 178 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.360 You know, this family that around this little kind of 179 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.679 roadside tavern in Kansas. When travelers would stop off there, 180 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.679 they would end up getting murdered and robbed and their 181 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:10.919 bodies buried in the apple orchard. But when the bender 182 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:16.279 atrocities were discovered again, the crowds descended on the place 183 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.360 and basically tore down the whole house, you know, taking 184 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:24.559 away pieces of wood as souvenirs. So that happened a 185 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:26.720 lot in the old days you talk about. 186 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:32.080 Another dramatic example is Anton Probes in eighteen sixty six. 187 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.679 The barn in which the slaughter took place was overrun 188 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.200 with sightseers who made off with again the wooden splinters 189 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:42.799 from the blood spattered floorboards. 190 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:45.279 Well, they made off with, you know, the bodies of 191 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:49.159 that case. Probes was this very very very notorious mass 192 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:55.879 murderer who methodically slaughtered of the seven members of the 193 00:11:55.919 --> 00:12:00.840 family that he worked for. Farm family treated them very 194 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:04.440 very well, you know, to hid their corpses, bloody corpses 195 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.440 in the barn and cover them with hey. Yeah, and 196 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.840 again with those crimes were discovered and boards of people 197 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:13.879 descended on the crime seed. You know, there are people 198 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.159 making away with little pieces of hay that had bloodstains 199 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.759 on them. Yeah, you know, again, anything they could get 200 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:27.559 their hands on. That was a MacB souvenir of this atrocity. 201 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.120 So yeah, and prost himself. When he was hanged again, 202 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:37.240 his body was dissected and somehow, slowly unclear how, but 203 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:43.919 his preserved arm and hand ended up in a New 204 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:49.000 York dime museum, you know, dime museums or these kind 205 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:56.919 of sleazy exhibitions which Lord patrons, you know, by exhibiting 206 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:01.159 just all kinds of bizarre things, you know, freaks, there 207 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.519 were remains of different kinds of freaks and medical oddities. 208 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.919 There was a pornographic peep show element to it because 209 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:12.720 they would have wax models showing female genitalia and so 210 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.039 on and so forth. But in this one museum of 211 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.120 the New York Anatomical Museum, the owner, some of the 212 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:24.039 propriety somehow got hold of Anton Probes arm and at 213 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:30.440 newspaper advertisements touting, you know, this amazing artifact which people 214 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:32.440 could come see for twenty five cent admission. 215 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:37.159 You mentioned these you call them CD dime museums proliferating 216 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:40.639 in the first half of the nineteenth century. But you 217 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.960 also had this, and you mentioned Anton Probe was part 218 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:47.799 of that twenty thousand Objects of Wonder advertised by one 219 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:51.080 of these establishments. And you say even the Venerable P. T. 220 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.600 Barnum got in the act. 221 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.559 Well, I mean Barnam was always Barnum was very, very 222 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:01.799 very well aware of the to which you know, these 223 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.120 crime things could attract customers. You know, there was a 224 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.279 guy named Albert Hicks. It was a very sensational crime 225 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:12.799 of the early eighteen hundreds who shipped aboard because I 226 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.559 remember was like an oyster boat. Anyway, he ended up 227 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.519 killing the entire crew. And when he was hanged Barnum, 228 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.919 before Probes went to his death, Barnum made a deal 229 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:27.480 with him and persuaded Probes to leave him the clothing 230 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:29.960 that he was going to be hanged in. And then 231 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.840 Barnum made a kind of wax replica of Anton Probes 232 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.080 and dressed him in those clothes. And again true enormous cross. 233 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:40.720 Of course, Madame Tussau, you know, was doing the same thing, 234 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.879 and originally in France and then in England in her 235 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:47.399 wax museums, you know what they call the Chamber of Horrors, 236 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.320 which were sections of her museums that contained relics and 237 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:56.600 wax recreations of notorious urners, you know, always attractive the 238 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.399 greatest number of paying customers. 239 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:02.639 So you talk about all P. T. Barnum's Broadway Museum, 240 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.519 but you also say that there was a Museum of 241 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.879 London exhibit in twenty and sixteen. They displayed scores of 242 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:14.000 objects from Scotland Yards legendary collection properly known as the 243 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:14.840 Black Museum. 244 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.159 Yeah. The London police, you know, they have all these 245 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:24.200 amazing objects connected with very very sensational British crimes. I 246 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.440 can't remember all of them. Maybe there have been books 247 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.200 published on the subject, kind of weird art books. They 248 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.840 did do an exhibition of that in London, of you know, 249 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:38.039 you're talking about artifacts from Jack the Ripper, you know, 250 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:42.879 artifacts from that. There's several of these things. I covered 251 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:46.360 my book. There was a British murderer of the brides 252 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.480 of the bathtub murder. You know. This guy was like 253 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:53.480 a Bluebeard killer who would marry one woman after another 254 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.639 and then drown them in the bathtubs and somehow persuade 255 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.679 the police that they had died by accident and so forth. 256 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.399 You know, So they would have his They might have 257 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.720 one of his bathtubs in the show anyway, that's kind 258 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:09.279 of stuff. They would have what's called the Black Museum. 259 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.360 You right, that the ominous significance of some of the 260 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:18.200 objects in this volume, Lizzie Borden's hatchet, for example, and 261 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.080 the luger used by mass murderer Howard Unra is obvious. 262 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:25.120 But you say that other items like the ladder used 263 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:29.840 in the Limberg baby kidnapping and Augusta Guynes gains crucifix 264 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:34.120 are everyday objects that acquired sinister meaning through the association 265 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:35.759 with notorious homicides. 266 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.879 Well, I'm not sure Lindbergh's the ladder that was used 267 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:43.639 in the Lindberg's kidnapping would qualify. Ordinary object is every day? 268 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:48.360 I mean, everybody knows Lizzie Borden, you know, delivered supposedly 269 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.799 forty wax forty one, or mother or maybe vice versa, 270 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.600 you know. Again, So Howard Underrow, who's considered to be 271 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.320 America's first modern mass murderer, went on a shooting spree. 272 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.440 I'm going to say nineteen forty eight, forty seven, I 273 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.240 can't remember the execu day, and in his New Jersey hometown, 274 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:12.400 shot and killed thirteen of his neighbors very methodically with 275 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.160 a World War two luger he had brought back from 276 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.519 the war. Yeah, I mean, it's obvious, you know, it's 277 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:21.720 obvious that that's a weapon that was used by this killer. 278 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.119 But yes, there are some other objects. For example, there's 279 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:27.880 a pair of eyeglasses. And if you just look at 280 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.319 this pair of eyeglasses, you know, you wouldn't think there 281 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.599 was anything particularly special about them, but they turned out 282 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:37.319 to be the pair of eyeglasses that were worn and 283 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:43.400 owned by Richard Nathan Leopold, of Leopold and Lobe, and 284 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.079 they were the glasses that led to their arrest, because 285 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.680 after Leopold and Lobe abducted and murdered this young boy, 286 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.920 they brought him out to this kind of wilderness area 287 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:58.000 and stashed his corpse in a culvert, and in the 288 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:03.240 course of that body disposed, So somehow Leopold lost his 289 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.400 eyeglasses which had been in the breast pocket of his jacket, 290 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:09.640 and those were in the you know, that ultimately led 291 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.440 to their arrest. They thought they'd committed the perfect crime. 292 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.519 So yes, there are a number of objects that in 293 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.559 and of themselves don't seem to be particularly extraordinary, but fact, 294 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.359 you know, do have this important connection to the crimes. 295 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:25.480 You know the book. What I do is I have 296 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.599 one hundred different objects, each one of which I use 297 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:33.119 is kind of a springboard to talk about the crime 298 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:34.039 that it's related to. 299 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.759 You write also that some of this some of these 300 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.640 items also include what you write is the oldest form 301 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.960 of true crime literature is the one folklore is called 302 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:46.200 murder ballads. 303 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:50.440 So murder ballads, you know, which go back before Shakespeare's time, 304 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:59.000 and let's say in sixteenth century England, when a sensational 305 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.359 murder happened, there would be I won't quite dignify them 306 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.799 with the name of poets, but they were sort of 307 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.839 would be poets, you know. It would turn these crimes 308 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.880 into ballads, and these things were sometimes set to music, 309 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.880 sometimes not, but that's how information about these crimes would 310 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.279 be transmitted, would be through these ballads. And then later 311 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.319 on after the invention of printing press, well, I mean 312 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.359 printing press had already been invented. I mean, initially these 313 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:32.559 are murder ballads would have been just transmitted orally, and 314 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.880 of course all of those would have been lost to time. 315 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:38.920 But once the printing press was invented, these printers would 316 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:43.759 print up these ballads on what we're called broadsides, which 317 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.000 are sheets of paper of a certain size, and sell them. 318 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:52.799 And yeah, that became the earliest form of true crime literature, 319 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:57.240 and murder ballad continued to exist really well into the 320 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:01.640 twentieth century. In fact, you know, or there are seventy 321 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.640 eight records, one of which at least one of which 322 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.960 I have, of a book recording a contemporary ballad. And 323 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:13.680 you know, once in you're way too youngtermember, this is 324 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:18.720 my time. Let in the oak song boom of the 325 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.200 late nineteen fifties and early nineteen sixties. You know a 326 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:25.039 lot of these old murder ballads, you know, were sung 327 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.200 and recorded by all these folk groups or people like 328 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:32.759 Bob Dylan. So yeah, so the murder ballad is a 329 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:39.440 very very very centuries old form of true crime narrative. 330 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.720 Yeah, you write that. You say it was called little 331 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.960 onmi and was based on the actual crime. You say 332 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.880 they took some considerable liberties with the truth, but was 333 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.839 concerning Naomi Wise and that Bob Dylan and also Elvis 334 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:55.480 Costello among other people. 335 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.079 Yeah, Tomi Biso very very interesting. Well again Onmi Wise 336 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:04.440 another example of the Maria Martin quarter phenomenon I mentioned before. 337 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.279 You know, only another young woman impregnant by some scoundrel 338 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.240 and you know, demanded that he marry her, and instead 339 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.240 he murdered her. And that that crime got turned into 340 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.200 this ballad is all genre of ballads. They're called murdered 341 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.400 girl ballads that have all basically all of which have 342 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.440 the same tell the same story. And usually in those ballads, 343 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:28.680 as an Obie Wise, I mean from you know, the 344 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.640 little that's known about the historical obi wise. You know, 345 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.559 she was a fairly loose living young woman. But typically, 346 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:39.279 as in that case, you know, in the ballad, these 347 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:44.119 victims are turned into virtuous young women who are seduced, 348 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:49.720 you know, by these diabolical lovers, then murdered. So yeah, yes, 349 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.599 that's the first you know, that's that's as far back 350 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.799 as my book goes chronologically, is the obi wise. 351 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.640 You talk about too that you use a term, I 352 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:03.920 guess at the time eraser killer. 353 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.039 Well that's the same thing. Yeah, well, somebody who's in 354 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:08.799 my book, but there was a woman who wrote a 355 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:11.920 book called The Race years ago, which talks about help. 356 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.880 That whole phenomena, you know, that's still going on, right, 357 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.799 you know, you see it. For example, the case of 358 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:21.720 Scott Peterson. You know, his wife's pregnant. You know, it 359 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.720 gets involved with his other, you know, hot young woman 360 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:27.799 who doesn't realize he's married, and instead of getting a 361 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.960 divorce and having to a alimonium child support, you know, 362 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.440 it gets rid of his pregnant wife. So you know, 363 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.200 that's the kind of crime that is all too common. 364 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:42.119 Yes, we talked about the ballads, but also this it 365 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:46.960 turns into this popular sheet music, and you cited again 366 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:50.400 another dramatic example with the little Charlie Ross who was 367 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.400 kidnapped and a very interesting story about the father of 368 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.960 buying his whole life to find his son with the 369 00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:02.920 Noah Vail. But this becomes a popular popular beat music definitely, 370 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:06.240 and it was called bring Back Our Little Darling. I 371 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:07.839 believe bring Back Our Darling. 372 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.640 Well, think about the Charlie Ross kidnapping. That makes it 373 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:14.759 significant historical is that it was the first kidnapping for 374 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.200 ransom in US history. You know, there's been other children 375 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.079 who'd been snatched, you know, way before, but this time 376 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.279 it was the first time that his abductors, you know, 377 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:30.480 that a child abductor demanded some money, and yeah, again 378 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.400 became a very sensational case. There are always you know, 379 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:39.319 people around were happy to exploit these things. And as 380 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:42.519 you say, yeah, somebody wrote a little song printed a 381 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.079 sheet music, so you know people probably went in for 382 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:48.119 the most part, you know, could take it home and 383 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.119 play it on the piano in the evening. You know, 384 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:55.000 it's obviously a kind of tear jerking song. But yes, 385 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:58.480 I mean you know whereabouts of Charlie were never were 386 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:00.799 never discovered and remained this person. 387 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.599 Let's essus as an opportunity to stop for a second 388 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.359 to hear from our sponsor. Have you ever had to 389 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:09.279 cancel going to a plan party due to bloating? You'd 390 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:12.599 just be too uncomfortable to stay. Well, it shouldn't be embarrassing, 391 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.039 it happens to a lot of people. Ritual literally created 392 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:20.400 Symbiotic Plus with issues like this in mind. It contains 393 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:26.079 clinically studied prebiotics, probiotics, and a post biotic to support 394 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.720 a balanced gut biome. 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