WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.720 So what do you do to earn the trust of 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.040 the team as a TPM. 3 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.000 Don't be a know at all. Yeah, don't make assumptions, 4 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:16.760 have extreme empathy and listen. As a technical program manager, 5 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:19.320 you're often the one that's kind of in the shadows 6 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.559 a little bit, right, Like you're the one who helps 7 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:25.879 other people shine, go outside, go on a walk, be 8 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:30.320 in nature. We are way too connected to technology and 9 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.399 I think our human brains can only handle so much. 10 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:38.679 And with AI, it's just like way you know, made, 11 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:40.200 it's made the problem even worse. 12 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:57.119 Hello everybody, and welcome to the Devlife Podcast. I'm here 13 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:02.039 with Brooke. Hey, Brooke, Hello, how are you Hey? Doing good? 14 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:03.920 How are you doing good? 15 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.079 Yeah? Just new year, lots of great things going on. 16 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:09.280 I think twenty twenty six is going to be a 17 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:13.120 really positive I don't know, so I just feel really 18 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:14.079 good energy this year. 19 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:17.120 So me too, I really feel it too. Well. I'm 20 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:20.599 really excited to let everyone know. Today we have a 21 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:24.439 very special guest, which is Brooke. She is going to 22 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:28.239 tell us about being a TPM. So let's start with that. 23 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:30.079 What is a TPM? Brook? 24 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.599 Yeah? And yeah, what is what are There's too many 25 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:39.640 acronyms in life a TPM technical program manager. So I 26 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:43.120 actually I have a little bit of a windy journey 27 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:46.719 in my career, but when I look back on it 28 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.120 at all, like lines up really well. I mean I've 29 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.040 gone from getting a master's in education, being a teacher 30 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:56.879 for a while, becoming a software engineer doing that for 31 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:03.120 a while, and then that led into my manager suggesting, Hey, 32 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:06.359 you know, you have a kind of a knack for 33 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:12.280 working with people and would you ever consider becoming a 34 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:14.960 technical program manager? And I honestly was like, I don't 35 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:18.280 even know what that is, but I love it. And essentially, 36 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:24.719 a technical program manager is someone who's kind of like 37 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:29.280 connecting the dots across teams and departments. So when there's 38 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.120 a program, when there's an initiative that the team is 39 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:38.120 working on, rights, it's the TPM who can really be 40 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:40.960 the one that comes up with like the program brief 41 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:45.919 and really lays out the foundation for what are the 42 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:50.599 problems we're trying to solve, what are the suggested solutions, 43 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:53.960 What are the phases that we're going to go through 44 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:57.919 to accomplish this? Who all is involved, how are we 45 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:01.159 going to execute this? What meetings do we need to 46 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.280 set up, what channels of communication do we need to have, 47 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.840 how are we going to get buy in and align 48 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.280 the stakeholders, but then executing it too, basically being the 49 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.680 person who looks over everyone's shoulder to make sure that 50 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.560 things are getting done and if there's a problem or 51 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.360 if something isn't quite working, we fix it and we 52 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:30.800 make it happen. So, you know, really like seeing the 53 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.960 full picture and really executing on that and just being 54 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.120 kind of the backbone of the project or program. 55 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.159 Wow, yeah, that's such a big role. Like as you're 56 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:46.319 describing this, it sounds exactly like the role of what 57 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:48.840 I was missing when I sold my business and kind 58 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:51.719 of why I sold my business because I couldn't do 59 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:53.919 all of that, you know. And so, man, if I 60 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:56.159 could go back in time for you looking back now, 61 00:03:56.360 --> 00:04:00.000 what actually changed for you when you moved from engineering 62 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:02.520 to TPM and can you talk a little bit to that. 63 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.800 I was really fortunate because it wasn't such a like 64 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.560 a you know, one day I'm an engineer. In the 65 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.560 very next day, I'm a TPM at Limble our company. 66 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.240 Because my manager saw that I had, you know, he 67 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.759 knew I was a GDE. He knew I was running 68 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:24.800 this meet up, I had a podcast, and he could 69 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.920 see that I was just like on the side, even 70 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.040 though I was doing all of my programming and like 71 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:36.160 software engineer tasks, I was also organizing all these events 72 00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:39.199 and like putting things together. And I think he saw that, 73 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.480 you know, like saw that I was gravitating towards doing 74 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.279 these other things, and that where he was like, well, 75 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.680 we do have a need and right now we only 76 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:52.879 have our lead TPM, but we know she needs help, 77 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:55.160 and so he's like, have you ever considered going into 78 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.319 program management? And then that's when he was like, well, 79 00:04:57.399 --> 00:04:59.439 let's just try it out. Let's just do you know, 80 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.800 like maybe twenty percent TPM and you're still doing eighty 81 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:08.079 percent engineering, And so we tried that out. I kind 82 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:12.040 of dipped my toe into things, was enjoying it enough 83 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:14.720 that then it went to like thirty seventy and then 84 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.959 eventually that's when it was like, Okay, you know this, 85 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:21.680 this is really something I enjoy and let's just go 86 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:22.040 all in. 87 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.680 I feel like when I joined Limble, it was like 88 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.720 like instantly I felt the value of your position, like 89 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:31.399 how you were setting up ways for us to learn 90 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:34.839 and like all these cool sessions and the culture was 91 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:38.480 just so solid because of everything you were doing. That's 92 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.199 really good to hear gright at that. Are there any 93 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.079 parts of engineering you miss though, and what parts are 94 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:45.639 you relieved to have let go of? 95 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.839 Yeah, you know, a lot of what I miss is 96 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:54.439 that collaboration, kind of that team togetherness, you know, like 97 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:59.000 I still understand what engineers are doing, and I think 98 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.600 that's one benefit to having been a software engineer because 99 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.120 I do have that understanding and i know what it 100 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.759 feels like. But I'm not in the trenches like I 101 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:12.240 used to be, and that part I do miss. There's 102 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:16.560 a certain kind of camaraderie that you know, you know 103 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:18.920 what I'm talking about, Like it's just sort of cool 104 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:21.480 to like go into the war room together or like 105 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.959 try to solve a bug or something together, and I 106 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.639 miss that. A lot of what a TPM does is 107 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:34.839 more individualistic, which is weird to say because I'm always 108 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:37.560 on the call. Like I'm always on calls, I'm always 109 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.879 talking with people. But at the same time, it like 110 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.160 I'm sort of like assigning out tasks and then taking 111 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.839 on tasks myself and looking over it. But it's not 112 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.319 quite the same as like solving a bug together. 113 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:56.920 Oh yeah, so I do miss that, Yeah totally, Like 114 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.839 if you were coding, I would totally be excited to 115 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:02.199 say screen share with you and might coe together and 116 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.240 that camaraderie would be awesome. But yeah, I could see 117 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:07.680 like how there's pros and cons you know, you're probably 118 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:11.399 making huge impact, but also like there's it sounds like 119 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:14.240 a lot of leadership is in that role. And I've 120 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:17.160 like recently fallen into a bit of a leadership position 121 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:19.160 Alan Bill as well, and it feels like as soon 122 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:21.360 as you're in a leadership position, you know, telling people 123 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:27.519 what to do, scheduling meetings, some of the camaraderie disapperies. Yeah, 124 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.600 they can, speaking of which, like what surprises you most 125 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:35.639 about how engineers perceive the TPM role and like how 126 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:37.160 do they perceive that role? 127 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.639 I think it depends on the company, to be honest, 128 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:44.439 because it's interesting when you ask someone what is a TPM, 129 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:47.839 you get twenty different answers, like from twenty different people, 130 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.000 And I think there's a misconception of exactly when I 131 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.279 shouldn't say misconception, I should more appropriately say that every 132 00:07:54.319 --> 00:08:00.519 company has a particular need for how the going to 133 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:05.319 utilize their TPMs, right, and so it's going to look 134 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.199 different I think for every company. Some I think use 135 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.360 a TPM more along the lines of what a program 136 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:18.000 manager is going to do and not strictly a TPM. 137 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.279 So I don't know, it's kind of a hard answer 138 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.480 or a hard question because every company does have a 139 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:32.360 different expectation, I think, and so engineers like for me, 140 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.120 for example, when I did make that transition, a lot 141 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.320 of what I was doing was like what you just said, 142 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:42.120 I was organizing learning initiatives and putting together little min 143 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.960 like mini conferences of sorts. 144 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:47.840 Yeah. 145 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:52.759 Unfortunately, what that turned into was that over time, even 146 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.720 though I was working on security initiatives and you know, 147 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:00.919 implementing things like sneak into our code base and like 148 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:03.759 really trying to bulke up our security efforts and things 149 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:07.080 like that, or I was really involved with getting launched 150 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.519 darkly implemented into our code base and our process. Like 151 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.960 I had all these other things going on, but a 152 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.399 lot of our team members just kind of saw me 153 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.799 as the fun maker and that was like wait, wait, wait, no, 154 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.240 I do a lot more than just organize like you know, 155 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.919 these little events or or you know, I was organizing 156 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:35.600 things like team building initiatives and things like that. So yeah, 157 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:40.559 I think sometimes it's just hard whatever is more forward 158 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:44.440 facing kind of what the team is going to see. 159 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:49.200 But if the company is praising you or like sharing, 160 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:52.240 you know, the progress and things that you've done, then 161 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:55.840 I think the team will recognize. Yeah, so does that 162 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:57.919 make sense? So I think it's really like and how 163 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:02.960 the company manage managed and leadership is really sharing your work. 164 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.960 Yeah, yeah, because you're doing a lot of behind the 165 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:12.639 scenes things that make important things work out, but people 166 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:16.480 wouldn't know. That makes sense. So if you, you know, 167 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:18.200 were to tell if you had an engineer and you 168 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.799 could give them any advice on how they should interact 169 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.720 with the TPM on their team, what does that look like? Like? 170 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:29.120 What should a good engineer do to communicate and work 171 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:30.960 with their TPM and vice versa. 172 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.320 Really, I mean it depends on what the initiative it is, like, 173 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.360 what the program is that you start working with the 174 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:44.120 TPM on. But I think communication is really huge because 175 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:47.919 whatever the TPM is doing is trying to fix something 176 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.960 or it's trying to improve something. So the best thing 177 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:57.000 you can do is just be as open as possible 178 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.600 and like the tp needs to have as much information 179 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.879 as they possibly can, and that's usually where I would start, 180 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.960 is asking a million questions so that I can fully 181 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:14.120 understand how are things currently going, what's currently happening. And 182 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.159 then once I've gathered all that information from pretty much 183 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:21.600 everybody involved, then I get that full picture. But the 184 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:26.799 more that you're open and just really you know, communicative 185 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:29.799 with the TPM, like don't hold back, don't be shy, 186 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:32.120 they're not going to judge you. They're not going to like, 187 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.879 you know, look down on you because things aren't going perfectly. 188 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:40.360 Nothing's ever going to be perfect, But just be as 189 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.600 open as you can and answer the questions that they 190 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:45.879 ask and know that, like they're just trying to solve 191 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.919 a problem. So I would just say that, like, you know, 192 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.360 help them to understand where the problems have been or 193 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:56.759 where things need to improve, and then get them that 194 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.120 information so that they can kind of like spearhead the 195 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.039 initiative to fix it or improve it. 196 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.759 Love that. Love that. So what advice would you give 197 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:12.200 to like other TPMs, Like maybe something that's like the 198 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.480 TPMs need to hear sort of a thing. 199 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.759 Again, I think it kind of depends on the company. 200 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.559 But I do think sometimes there's a tendency too, and 201 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.039 I would say this with program managers or even tech 202 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.960 leads honestly, but sometimes there's this tendency to want to 203 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.080 schedule more meetings than maybe you should because you do 204 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.480 need to collect information, you know. I would just say, like, 205 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.759 be really careful with don't overschedule things. Try to keep 206 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:43.440 meetings as brief and concise and to the point, you know, 207 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.080 as you possibly can, and be respectful to the fact that, 208 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:51.480 like software engineers really need to be focusing on their job, right, 209 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.600 So yeah, I like that would be one thing I 210 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:56.679 would say is just be really conscientious of other people's 211 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:03.879 time and also the reality of is my suggested implementation 212 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:08.360 or my proposal to improve or fix things is it 213 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:14.080 really realistic? So just being very aware of like what 214 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:19.600 tools and processes is the company already using and can 215 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:23.919 I use that instead of throwing out an idea to 216 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:25.960 bring in something totally new or different. 217 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.360 Yeah, So what do you do to earn the trust 218 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:34.039 of the team as a TPM? 219 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.960 Don't be a know at all, Yeah, don't make assumptions, 220 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:46.480 have extreme empathy, and listen. Don't talk, but listen. I 221 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:49.279 think those are some of the biggest things. Like it's 222 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:55.039 natural to go into any kind of situation and have 223 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:59.840 all sorts of background experience or things that worked somewhere else, 224 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.159 but there's no cookie cutter solution to what you're doing. 225 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:09.720 So that's great, that's wonderful that you have something that 226 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.799 worked in a different situation or with a different team, 227 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.679 but that may not be what's going to be the 228 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.840 solution for what you're trying to solve right now, Like, 229 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.840 you really need to just sit down, ask questions, listen 230 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:26.120 as much as you possibly can, and get to know 231 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:30.159 the people on your team because they are individuals with 232 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.120 unique personalities and they're going to come with a lot 233 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:38.240 of I mean, most of the time you're trying to 234 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.879 fix a problem, right, so there's going to be probably 235 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:47.559 some yeah, I don't know, just situations that you need 236 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.480 to be very careful not to go in there and 237 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.639 just make assumptions and like push your way in, right, Yeah, 238 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.919 so really listen, figure out how things are working, who 239 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:04.039 doing what, who's fitting what role. Even if it's not 240 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:08.720 an official title, every person on a team has a role, 241 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.759 and you need to be careful not to like step 242 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:15.200 on toes or go in there and just implement all 243 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.200 this stuff without figuring out how things are currently working. 244 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:21.080 But then, like I said, you got to really just 245 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:27.000 have that empathetic listening ear and then present a solution 246 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:33.039 without being married to it as well, right Like, whatever 247 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.159 you suggest is probably not going to be one hundred 248 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.799 percent what is rolled out, so don't be married to it. 249 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.639 You have to get buy in from everyone and just 250 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:47.639 be willing to you know, I think you really have to. 251 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.720 I believe very firmly in being agile and just being 252 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.440 okay with iterations and trying something out a little bit 253 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.320 and then tweaking it and improving it, but working really 254 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:01.279 closely with everyone on the team to make sure that 255 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:02.360 they're okay with it too. 256 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:06.000 Oh so much good stuff there, And honestly, I think 257 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.399 this is definitely super relevant to like team lead tech 258 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:13.480 leads too good everything you said right there, I'm like, oh, 259 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.679 I need to listen more. Sometimes I come in and like, 260 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:18.960 let's get it done. Here's how I've done it, you know, 261 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:25.120 my past company. But like listening, man, Like that's the 262 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.159 I guess, you know, they say, like we have two 263 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:29.240 years of mouth, And it's for a reason. 264 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:34.320 It's interesting too, because as I've spoken, and like, you know, 265 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.120 sometimes I'll go in and I'll try things and maybe 266 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.720 it's not working. Like I've had this happen recently where 267 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.600 I get frustrated because it's like I've tried all the 268 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.639 things that you've taught me and I can't figure out 269 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:50.639 why this isn't working. So my mentor I was asking her, like, 270 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.360 what what would you do? And she's like, ask more questions. 271 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:57.919 It's like, what do you mean, ask more questions? I 272 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.480 need to fix things. And she's like, but the more 273 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:06.319 questions you ask, you're getting the other person to really 274 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.640 think about what you want them to think about. 275 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.200 Oh my gosh. 276 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.359 People don't change until they want to change and when 277 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:20.160 they think it's their idea. So the more that you, 278 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.200 as a leader ask the right questions and get them 279 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:29.400 to see why they want to change and what they're 280 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.519 trying to accomplish. You know. But questioning you're not telling them, 281 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.799 you're not commanding them. You're getting them to dig up 282 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:43.200 why they want what they're asking for. So it's it's 283 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.640 a powerful tool. Questioning. 284 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.400 I love that. So instead of me being like, hey Brooke, 285 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.279 this is urgent, critical bug I need to go get 286 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.000 it fixed by Thursday. I'd be like, hey, did you 287 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.759 hear about that bug? You know? And then we have 288 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.279 a conversation and like, do you think we should get 289 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.720 this done quickly? And you have context you're like, yeah, 290 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.440 you know, that feels far more friendly and maybe gives 291 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.000 you a chance to actually have buy in instead of 292 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.119 me telling you what to do and then you being like, Okay, 293 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:14.039 you got a boss, you know, right, Yeah, yeah, that's 294 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:18.720 something I could do better. That's really it's ask questions 295 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.119 for sure. So how do you decide when to step 296 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.400 in versus stay out of the way. 297 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.200 That's a really good question. I mean think, well, that's 298 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.720 a hard question. You step in when nothing else is working, 299 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.559 Like it just becomes clear and see the problem. Like, 300 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:39.119 one thing about being a TPM is that you often 301 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.640 aren't working with just engineers, right, Like, it's kind of 302 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:47.039 cross department, so I would step in, Like I'm trying 303 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.000 to think of a good example, and one I can 304 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.359 think of is I've recently been added to be the 305 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:57.799 TPM over a big project at our company that goes 306 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:04.200 across multiple departments. And the reason that we felt like 307 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.039 there needed to be a TPM over that was because 308 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:13.079 you had one department running how you know, like they're 309 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.720 part of it, and then the engineering department was running 310 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.480 their portion of it, but they weren't aligning. And so 311 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.920 you had documentation over here, you had documentation over here. 312 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:25.079 They weren't in the same place. There wasn't one source 313 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.359 of truth, and communication channels were failing. There was no 314 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.680 cross communication and there was no buy in. And if 315 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.960 I had asked someone over here in this department what 316 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:38.359 the roadmap was and what the goals were, they would 317 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.480 tell you very different things and what the engineering department 318 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.519 would tell you. So I stepped in to create that 319 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:53.880 alignment and to create healthy communication channels where there was transparency, 320 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.960 there was a shared source of truth. You know, everybody 321 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:01.400 was really aligned. So does that that makes sense? Oh? 322 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:05.000 Yeah, that's that makes so much sense And I love that. Yeah, 323 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:07.680 So switching gears a little bit here. How do you 324 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.440 personally stay technically sharp without writing production code every day? 325 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:16.519 Is it definitely a personal I should say, habit right 326 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:19.480 like you? But it also depends on the project. I 327 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.319 mean I mentioned there was I noticed the gap probably 328 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.480 about a year ago where our company isn't a place 329 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:31.680 where it's still fairly young. We were at that time 330 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:36.880 still very much in the startup phase, and we really 331 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:40.400 had only had like one of our original founders who 332 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.039 was in charge of security. And because we started growing 333 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:48.119 and growing and growing, we were focused on developing a 334 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:54.079 more bulked up product team and a larger engineering team, 335 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:56.359 but security got a little bit left in the dust. 336 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.279 And so I was looking at some documentation when and 337 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.680 was kind of horrified to find out we had nothing 338 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.759 on security. So that's where I was like, we've got 339 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:12.160 to change this, and so I took it upon myself 340 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:16.640 to start really building out better documentation on our current 341 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:22.599 security process, how things were handled, and then implementing new 342 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.000 things so that we actually had a process and a 343 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:31.039 shared understanding of vulnerabilities or you know, all of these things. 344 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.279 Oh my gosh, Matt, what was the original question? 345 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.279 Oh just kind of like what you felt like, you 346 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:39.880 do this stay technically sharp? 347 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.400 Oh right, right, Okay. So because of that, like we 348 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:46.440 started looking into different tools or platforms that would help 349 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.200 us to be more secure. And so for that we 350 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:57.200 at that time we had Sneak, but we weren't using it, 351 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.000 and so it was there, it was what was available. 352 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.400 We were already paying for it. I didn't know it, 353 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.519 but I had to go make sure that I understood 354 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.359 it better. And so again it's just asking questions, but 355 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.680 I had to go do research. I had to read documentation. 356 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:16.559 So in that instance, it was me having to learn 357 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:19.799 more about the tool that we already had, but you know, 358 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:21.960 setting aside the time to do that so that I 359 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:26.240 could try to have more intellectual conversations with actually you 360 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.839 you got brought into that project as well, but others, 361 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:32.559 so that you know, I could actually lead the program, 362 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:38.200 lead the initiative and not get lost. So sometimes your 363 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.880 your position just sort of demands it and you have 364 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.519 to learn whatever the company decides is the tool or 365 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.640 the platform that we're going to use to fix the problem. 366 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.799 But also at the same time, like I'm still an 367 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.039 angular GDE and so it's very important to me to 368 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:57.920 attend conferences, go to meetups, you know, be watching things 369 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:01.160 that are released on YouTube, and it's just part of 370 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.799 my daily discipline honestly, is to set aside that learning 371 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:08.480 time and be watching LinkedIn or you know, like where 372 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.680 people are posting, so social media, watching social media and 373 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:14.519 if I see someone like Deborah Carota or someone who's 374 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.920 posting about signals, then Yeah, it is just part of 375 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:22.119 being a professional, I think is taking the time to 376 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:27.599 study those things and be up on Okay, back hand 377 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.000 four months ago, it's like what is signals? What is that? 378 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:32.359 You know? And I had to learn more about it 379 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.359 and what it was solving, what it was fixing. 380 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.519 Yeah, so like part of it naturally comes through the job, 381 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:43.640 but also definitely making some dedicated effort to make sure 382 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.839 you're learning new things and staying on top of it. 383 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.640 And I've definitely seen you do both a lot of that. 384 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.319 Speaking of signals as a TPM, what advice do you 385 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:57.920 have for angular teams from like a broader lens, Like 386 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.480 what patterns separate healthy teams from struggling ones? For example, go. 387 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:07.200 Back to how much I really believe in being agile. 388 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:12.160 I wouldn't have said that back like when I was 389 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:17.519 still actually a software engineer. Our team here at Limboll 390 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.839 was small enough, there were seventeen of us between product 391 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:27.279 and engineering, and we didn't really practice agile development. I 392 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:29.400 mean it was like we had one big bucket with 393 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.839 all of the tickets and tasks that needed to be done, 394 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.079 and we all just kind of went in and picked 395 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:37.720 what we wanted and worked on it, but as the 396 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.799 team grew, it became obvious that we needed to have 397 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:49.720 more structure and really have this iterative process. And it 398 00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.480 was kind of painful at first because I'm someone that 399 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:58.240 sort of naturally resists what feels tedious, I think, and 400 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:02.359 it can filter, you know, oh my gosh, there's more meetings. 401 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:06.079