Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime.
Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly
and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by one
of our very favorite guests, author Ron Peterson Junior, here
to talk to us about his fourth book, In the Wind,
The Disappearance of Janice star Ron. Thank you for joining
us today.
Speaker 5: Hi, Bill and Kristen. Great to be with you, and
thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: We were laughing because we think you've been on Mind
over Murder more than anybody.
Speaker 5: Wow, that is an honor. Sincerely, with some of the
guests you've had, I feel very fortunate to have been
on here for now fourth time.
Speaker 2: Well, it's always a great conversation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, run start by telling our listeners what you've been
up to since you were last on. For your third book,
Eyes of a Monster, which is about the Olivia Christian case.
You've had quite a bit going on in that time.
Tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 5: So for the last year and a half, I've been
working on my current book that comes out on July thirtieth,
called In the Wind, and we'll talk a little bit
more about that then. I've also got two film projects
that are in the works and have been for a
few years now. One is for my book Under the Trestle.
It's a documentary film with McTavish Pictures, with Scott McTavish,
who have been working with on that. He's done all
the shooting and interviews documentary style and now is in
post production and we're hoping certainly by the end of
the year it will find its way to a streaming service.
Then my other book, Chasing the Squirrel, which is about
the Notoriou drugs Muggeler Wally Thrasher. It was a daredevil
pilot who I was able to research and learn a
lot about through a lot of his former acquaintances and friends.
That book was acquired by Urban Legends Film Company in
California and Los Angeles, and they also have been we've
been working with them on that. His Introduction is a
multi up episode television series. In fact, I'm going out
to Los Angeles at the end of this month, at
the end of August and take a look at some
of the things they've put together there. Very excited about
both of them, and when they finally do come together
and hit the screen on a streaming service, it's going
to be a great time.
Speaker 2: We've both worked on film and TV projects, and inevitably
they seem to take way longer than you think they
they do.
Speaker 5: I remember hearing about the series Queen's Gambit, which was fictional,
but that it took I think it was twelve or
fifteen years to finally make its way onto a screen
with some real heavyweights working on it, and obviously just
an incredible story. But that's an example of how long
these things can take. Although certainly I don't expect it
to take that long. You have to understand that.
Speaker 2: What's interesting is when we were talking off air a
little bit about this, Kristen said she was really excited
about Under the Trestle, which I am too, But then
I have such a soft spot for a Wally Thrasher
as this incredibly colorful smuggler pilot, crazy man. I'm really
excited about Chasing the Squirrel too, and.
Speaker 5: I am as well. You know, you mentioned him. He
was this. I never met him, of course, but have
met his widow or ex wife, i should say, and
his son, and he was this Burt Reynolds kind of character, charismatic.
You think of Burt Reynolds and Smoky and the Bandit
or something, and that's kind of character he was, and
really had some incredible adventures and had nine lives like
a cat, and judge it from some of the stories
about him.
Speaker 3: It's going to be wonderful to eventually see both of
those projects hit the screen, big or small. So I'm
looking forward to both of those. I'm absolutely tickled to
death that we were able to talk to you today
about your brand new book In the Wind, which is
about the disappearance of Janis Star, and I've read all
your books. I've loved all your books, but honestly, I
think this is right up there. I still think under
the trustle Winds we're top one. But this is definitely
like hard on its Heels number two. This is absolutely fantastic.
I could not put it down for a minute. I
absolutely loved it.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristin coming from you, that means an awful lot.
That makes my day. Thanks.
Speaker 2: There you have it. I like it. Why don't you
start ron by telling us a little bit about what
in the Wind is about? Which is the victim in
this case is Old Dominion University or ODU student Janis Starr?
Speaker 5: Yeah, as some of the listeners know, Old Dominion University
is a college in Norfolk, Virginia. Back in nineteen eighty one,
there was a student there, twenty three year old Janis Starr.
She was a non traditional student. She was born and
grew up part of the time in New York City,
then moved with her family and her mother and stepfather.
He was an insurance agent with Mutual of Omaha. They
moved to Miami and she graduate from high school in Miami.
This would have been in the late seventies. She joined
the Army which was a non traditional thing for a
woman to do. And she was a very attractive and
certainly a feminine woman who surprised a lot of people
when she joined the army, but wanted to serve her
country and had some challenges in the army, I think,
as any woman would have in a man's world and
a male dominated type of environment. And after a three
year service in the army, she was ready to get
her college degree, and through an interesting set of circumstances,
she settled in Norfolk, Virginia, going to Old Dominion University.
The story really picks up right there with her time
as a student. She was in the RTC pro there.
Her plan was to graduate and become an officer, an
army officer, having served there previously. She was also in
the Army reserves because I said she was a non
traditional student, and one day she in the fall of
nineteen eighty one, she just disappeared. She stopped showing up
for class, stopped coming to work. She lived in an
off campus apartment. The first part of the book is
about Janis's life, and then the story really gets going
when a detective is assigned to work her case. Detective
from Chesapeake Virginia. She lived right across the border in
a apartment complex that was in Chesapeake, right near the
Norfolk city line, so it was in the jurisdiction of
Chesapeake Police. And the detective who was the lead investigator
on her missing person case was named Kay Shucker. And
Kay's story in and of herself, and then the book
gets into Kay's background as well. Kay was the one
who came to me with this story about two years ago.
She's retired now, and Kay brought me a lot of
the resources from the case file information and introduce me
to a lot of the people who were involved on
the law enforcement side. With her, I was able to
put the story together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say that the real heroine of the
book is Detective Kay Shucker. I have decided that I
want to grow up to be Detective Kay Shucker. And
she's absolutely just the most amazing example of perseverance and
grace under pressure. Here is a lady who met every
single obstacle in her pursuit of justice for Janis Starr,
and she still absolutely went out there and did everything
that she could to make sure that this young woman's
killer was caught. Obviously, we want people to read the book,
So you're not going to give everything away, but can
you tell us just a little bit about in her
career and why she was so very much a first
of her kind in the Chesapeake Police Department.
Speaker 5: She was indeed, she was a pioneer, and she was
a badass in terms of the way she went about
her job. Case story. She started work for the Chesapeake
Police Department in the early mid nineteen seventies as in
an administrative role, and she was a secretary for an
officer and in the detective bureau, and then she worked
away in a position as a dispatcher, which is right
on the front line, and all along she developed more
and more of an interest in being a police officer
and ultimately a detective. She's the kind of person who
has a great deal of empathy, really wanted to help people,
and like the idea of being able to be with
them in situations where bad things had happened and making
those situations better. It was a lot of her motivation.
So in the mid seventies, when she expressed her interest
in moving into a police officer position in Chesapeake, she
went to the human resources office and asked for an application,
and she was told I'm sorry, but we don't hire
women here.
Speaker 2: So wow, imagine how that this isn't that long ago.
Speaker 5: I know it is, It's in the full stories in
the book, but I believe this was about nineteen seventy seven,
I want to say. So. Yeah. She returned later and
by then it met with an attorney who and was
had a letter and was glad to let the Human
Sources Office know that they could not discriminate against a
woman in that way. So she got an application and
then was brought on board. But first she had to
make it through the training, which included an obstacle course
similar to what you see the Navy Seals doing. In fact,
it was at where the Navy Seals train in Norfolk.
Kse short, just a little over a five feet tall,
and they made it as difficult on her as they could.
In fact, she had had to take the test on
a rainy day to make it as difficult as possible.
So the book gets into her challenges just to make
it as a police officer, and then follows her along
her journey in patrol. Some of the challenges seats she
had there. And this was the time not only was
their discrimination but harassment in the workplace was it was
accepting when in a lot of environments it was encouraged.
So there's a incident of her walking in uniform through
the police station, and she was an attractive lady and
one of her superior officers would make a habit of
patting her on the rear end with his clipboard. So
after a while she was able to put a stop
to that. But that's an example the kind of humiliating
things that would happen. Then I think about it through
my own eyes. I've got my wife and daughter, are
both career minded people, both strong women, and sometimes I
shake my head the things they have to go through
as women in the workplace. Certainly back in the nineteen
seventies it was just a different world, and Kay was
able to work her way up through that.
Speaker 2: Speaking of fighting, one of the things that's really that
jumps out at you reading the book is Kay ends
up having to fight against skepticism from the men that
she's working with she's developing this case. And I don't
think it gives anything away to say that a particular
suspect rises to the top and he's really the only
strong suspect they have. Is I could tell Why do
you think the male detectives at Chesapeake were so skeptical
They didn't seem to accept the idea that Janice had
been murdered and that the man that she may have
been involved in was her killer. Why do you think
that happened.
Speaker 5: That's a great question, but goes back to when she
started as a detective. And we're talking about Chesapeake, Virginia.
This was back in a day where as we talked about,
things were a lot different. And I should say now
as a disclaimer, it's a great police force and they
do wonderful things, have great people working there. But back
then it seems the detective bureau was dominated by alpha males.
When any police department, your best and brightest patrol officers
eventually become detectives or they work in the investigations bureau,
and then the best detectives were commicides. So that's Kay
had worked her way up to that level. I think,
first of all, there was some resentment for that police detectives,
and in those is a big part of their job,
and their motivation was being smarter than other people, certainly
smarter than criminals, but also they took pride and their
ability to do that with this case. For example, there
was a diary to the Janis Star the missing person had,
and some of the male detectives Kay had that in
working the case, and then some of them were able
to get a copy of it. In reading through it,
like a lot of women would do, she was descriptive
about some of the relationships she'd had with men. So
they read it and came to believe that the reason
she was missing was she had just dropped out of
college and run off with some guy and moved away somewhere,
that she was just that flaky personality, whereas Kay was.
You can call it women's intuition. I think very often
women are better at these kind of situations and understanding
than men. She had a different read on the situation.
But going back to your question, Bill, I think was
also a case of a few of the male detectives
that were working the case with her. And maybe I
should back up and say, in most cities the size
of Chesapeake, they're not big cities. When there's a homicide
and there's not many homicides or murders, then all the
detectives will work the case. There's one lead detective, But
then you'll also have two or three others or more
working with them. So that was the case with this
Kay was the lead detective, and a lot of the
male detectives that were supporting her and working with or
had their own idea about what had happened, and they
refused to acknowledge some of the things that turned up
in the investigation. Instead of changing their mind and admitting
I was wrong, they dug in even further and found
other things to support their belief and it was very
difficult for them to say they were wrong again. I
think it goes back to them being alpha males.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were definitely instances when I was reading this
and you were sharing the point of view of these
alpha male detectives and times when they were being openly
skeptical and sometimes even openly scornful. Okay, and I just
had moments where I was like, I got to put
this book down for a couple of minutes. I'm so mad.
I want to reach out and slap this guy across
the face. This is awful. I really liked the fact
Ron that you did not shy away from pointing out
when these male detectives were victim blaming and victim shaming
because a lot of them really were reading into this
situation that if she did disappear, she did get murdered,
it was her fault, she was flaky, she got involved
with the wrong guy, or whatever. I really liked the
fact that you did not hesitate to point out they
should not have said this was wrong. And I just
I'm really thankful that you did that, because not a
lot of authors would be that discerning and would be
that careful, and would be that willing to say this
was bad behavior. So I really appreciated that. Just coming
from a woman's standpoint, I thought it was great that
you did that. There was a ton of victim blaming
and victim shaming. You think that has more to do
with the time period, more to do with the detectives
or the combination of the two.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was the time period really, although
the behavior of the detectives that's well documented and it
shows up in the reports that I'm was privy too,
But I think a lot of it did have to
do with the time period, and there was a double standard.
If we were talking about victims. If there was a
female victim who dated a lot of men, you can
imagine what she was thought of On the other hand,
if there was a male victim who dated a lot
of women, he was thought of as a playboy and
as a good guy just out being a man. Right.
I mentioned Janis's diary that plays a big part of it.
Kay was able to get that. And then what played
a big part in Kay becoming so interested and I'd
even say obsessed with solving the case was as she
read through Janis's diary, we went back for several years.
She read about Janis's experience in the army as a
woman trying to make it in a man's world, and
then here was Kay and in the exact same shoes.
Kay was also a strong woman trying to make it
in the male world of law enforcement. So she felt
a kinship with Janie and it made her want to
solve the case even more. There's expression detectives used. It's old,
but the uses to this day. They say, don't fall
in love with a victim, and they don't mean in
the romantic sense. They mean don't get too attached to
the victim, and that you want justice for them so bad.
It's just not a healthy thing. And I, you know,
I think Kay said she became so obsessed with trying
to solve the mystery and bring justice for Janie and
her family, that it was a really difficult time for
her at the time. The six monthster showed or so
that Kay spent on this investigation.
Speaker 2: Did some of the male detectives that Kay worked with
did they come around to her perspective? She had developed
a suspect this Army Captain betting Field, and Kay was
pretty certain that Bettingfield was responsible for Janis Starr's death.
Did some of the other male detectives come around to
her point of view?
Speaker 5: A few of them eventually did, but there were a
few who never did. They went after the case was solved.
They refused to acknowledge that they were wrong in their
initial opinions. They just didn't talk about it. It was funny.
They just didn't known up to their mistakes. There's a again,
I won't I won't give a lot away about the ending.
I have a bad habit of doing that, by the way,
getting on a podcast, people eventually don't have to buy
the book because I've told them the whole story. But so, yeah, Bill,
I think it was a mixed bag and that some
of them were like, wow, Kay, you were right all along,
the others just never really talked about the case anymore.
Speaker 3: I was very interested in methodical way that Kay went
about investigating and eventually solving the case. What would you
say were the key components that contributed to her eventual
success in cracking this case.
Speaker 5: I think it was good old fashioned, old school shoe
leather and knocking on doors and talking to people. We
all watch, you know, we watched crime dramas nowadays, whether
it's CSI or Law and Order, and the case gets
solved in an hour, and there's DNA in a fancy
laboratory that tells exactly who the suspect is or who
who did not commit the murder. Keep in mind, this
takes place in nineteen eighty one, so there was no DNA,
and forensic evidence was certainly not as far long as
it is now. And I was very fortunate two of
the forensics technicians who worked on the case. I got
to spend a lot of time talking with them about it,
Terry Riggs and al Burns, so they shared a lot
about what they were able to ascertain. Really a case
like this, forensics and technology was not a big help.
It was more Kay, I mentioned it happened at Old
Manion University ODU, and she pretty much camped out on
the campus there and talked to everybody she could and
made it clear that she was there available for them
to talk to. And that was where her best leads
and her best information came from, was just continuing to
knock on doors and talk to people. And just as
I said, good old fashioned shoe leather.
Speaker 2: What was Kay warned to go lightly in terms of
investigating this potential suspect.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the suspect was an Old Dominion University professor named
Dwight Bettingfield. He's a local boy, done good. He grew
up in Norfolk, went to high school. There, had been
active duty in the army. He was an Army captain
to Stingish Service. Then when the job came open for
odus al he's also to Old Dominion University graduate himself.
And then when the job came over, came up as
the number two guy in the ODU ROTC program. He
had that job and he'd been in it for a
few years there when Janis came along. He was really
well thought of. There's pictures of him in the book
and that I'll share on my social media. When the
book comes out and on my website. He was a
good looking guy, tall, square jaw, look every bit the
part of an officer. He was married, had two kids.
From the outside as his marriage looked picture perfect. So
when he was first interviewed, it was an informational interview.
There was a male detective or the key I keep
saying mail detective. I'll just say another the detective who
was along with Kay, who was a guy. As their
interview in him, he sold the betting Field is a
great guy. In fact, he's probably quite impressed with Dwight
betting Field. And as Kay's talking to him and asking
him questions, again, it's some of those probably women's intuition,
so many of these nonverbal cues. I think a female
detective sometimes is better at picking those up, and I
think my wife is when we talk to people. But
Kay picked up on some things that she thought were
red flags. She brought him up with the other detective
after the interview, and that what she was told was, Hey, Kay,
you got to stop. You're looking too deeply into this.
He's a great guy, he's an officer, almost to the
point of don't you dare think of approaching him like
a suspect. He's an officer, he's earned the right not
to be viewed in that light. She refused, and even
some of that advice to her came from her superiors,
and she refused to follow that advice and kept digging
at him and peeling away, and finally things started to
develop in terms of Captain Dwight Bettingfield as a suspect
as having something to do with Janis's disappearance.
Speaker 3: The red flag for me, and I didn't understand why
the detectives other than KA who were working on this
didn't see this as a giant red flag as well.
The red flag for me was the life insurance policy
that he had out on Janice with him as the beneficiary.
I don't understand how that wasn't an absolutely massive red
flag to anybody other than Kay. She actually showed it
to people and they were like, Eh, don't worry about it.
I was screaming, this is the biggest red flag I
can think of. He's got a life insurance policy out
on her, he's the beneficiary, and she's disappeared. How is
this not a giant, screaming danger Will Robinson moment? Why
do you think that the other detectives other than Kay
who were looking at this didn't see that as an
absolutely massive red flag.
Speaker 5: It sounds like something out of a B movie. Were
certainly something that if it were fiction, a B author
would write it and be like, oh, this is too
far fetch.
Speaker 2: And the editor would take it out exactly.
Speaker 5: But it was, as I said, it was well documented.
In fact, I saw a copy of the insurance policy
and the way Bettingfield explained it, it really makes a
lot of sense, and it gives you a little bit
of insight into his personality. May not be a stretch
to say he was a sociopath what he did. He
was also Janis Starr's academic advisor. When those of us
went to college, you can remember your academic advisor was
someone you came to for advice, not only on what
courses to take, but also sometimes in life and career
and so forth. Certainly in a military environment a RTC program,
he filled that role, so it wasn't uncommon students would
come in to meet with him and he'd advised them
on what courses they were taking and their progress toward
their degree and their eventual career, but also if they
had personal problems financially, he would steer them in the
right direction. It might be, hey, you need to join
this credit union, the fee aren't as high. They really
look after service members or people in the military. Or
you need to start saving more money. You're spending more
than you're making now. With Janis, his advice to her
was very specific. She came to him and there was
some checks she was expecting from her Army Reserve duty
that were late coming in because of her change of address.
She was flat broke, so he loaned her money to
get over that hump, which was a red flag. She
paid him back and everything from a distance looked above board.
But then he further gave her advice on He said, away,
you can improve your credit, and it's a savvy financial move,
and you're young, is for you to take out a
life insurance policy. She never had life insurance and when
twenty three years old probably doesn't think about it. But
he explained it to her much as if he were
a life insurance salesman, that it was a great move.
He told her it was an investment. The type of
policy she took out was considered an investment, and he
told her it would also improve her credit. Rating, which
I don't know if that was true or not, but
she certainly believed that it was. So then he steared
in the right direction on who to take out the
insurance policy with one of the financial institutions that specializes
in working with service members of USAA. So she did,
and then she didn't want to have her parents in
the loops. She didn't want them in her business. They'd
be the natural beneficiary. So she asked him, I don't
want to put my parents as a beneficiary. Who should
I put? And very nonchalant, he said, oh, put my name.
Nothing's going to ever happen to you. So he was
the beneficiary of over three hundred thousand dollars worth of
life insurance that Janis Star took out at his encouragement.
The way he got her to do it was masterful.
It was just master manipulation. And the book gets into
that and you'd come to realize just how good he
was at that. And Kay looked at that, and obviously
for anyone, even any of us, we'd say, wow, there's
your motive right there. So that was a big part
of the book and was a big red flag for Kay.
By the time the other detectives learned about that they
were heavily invested in their own opinion and chose to
believe that that was not a factor in genesis and demise.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just
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and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for
your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. Let the
record reflect that when you started talking about the life
insurance policy, both of eyebrows shot up and you got
to be hitting. It wasn't like that her parents would
be the natural beneficiary of a life insurance policy. There's
just something about the fact that he managed to talk
her into buying life insurance as a young person and
making him the beneficiary. That is just so bizarre.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it makes you shake your head. You think,
I don't want to use the word gullible, but that
she was that vulnerable that she'd do it Like any predator,
I guess he could see she was at a vulnerable
point in her life. Side note is the book gets
into this she'd also been in a relationship with a
man who she thought she was probably gonna marry and
had broken up with him. So she was pretty vulnerable emotionally,
I think, and probably not looking at it the way
she needed to. But I do think that it's hard
to believe someone would actually go for that. I think
the way he sold it to her and positioned it
was just on his end. It was just masterful on
the way he did it.
Speaker 3: And you definitely get in too in other parts of
the book, which again I'm not going to spoil because
we want people to buy the book, you really do
get this since this guy was a predator and had
been doing this for quite a while, not just with Jennie.
So I absolutely was appalled the whole entire way through
reading about this guy. He really does seem you use
the word sociopath ron, he really does seem like a
textbook sociopath. And I felt awful for for not just Janis,
but for everyone else that he victimized.
Speaker 5: Yes, indeed, I talk about the unlikely story and if
it was fiction and someone wrote it, you think, wow,
this is a little bit too far fetch. What eventually
happens to him in the book is really really hard
to believe. And all I'll say, we get into it
more if you guys want to, but all it involves
an airplane.
Speaker 3: So so yeah, that was one of those things where
by the time I got to it, I was like,
there's absolutely no way. There's no way that this is
going to end the way that I think it did,
and that he did. This has bananas. It is larger
than it is, large than life. It is Hollywood movie.
It would give Double Indemnity a run for its money.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it would, indeed. Yeah, And I was fortunate. It's
also well documented in the case file that it was
very interesting to write about and see how it was
all supported with police reports.
Speaker 2: The thing that's really striking is those cliches about truth
being stranger than fiction. This was unbelievable that as the
story unfolds, the twists and turns are really shocking. And
yet you're not making this up. This isn't a work
of fiction by Ron Peterson. This is a true crime story.
Speaker 5: Indeed. Yeah, I've been very fortunate. After my first book,
I've had probably about once a month or more, someone
will come to me. They're usually retired law enforcement, either
a detective or sometimes someone who worked even a federal
agent in some federal law enforcement capacity. They'll come to
me and say, Hey, worked in law enforcement for thirty
forty years and there's this one case that I worked.
It's the craziest case you've ever heard about. If you haven't, meant,
I'd like to tell you about it. So some of
these stories I hear incredible, and fortunately I've been able
to pick and choose the best, most interesting cases to
write about. And this one from k certainly within ten
minutes of talking to her, I was like, Wow, you
know this is my next book.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of what was the media coverage of this
case like back in nineteen eighty one, was this the
kind of media sensation that the Colonial Parkway murders were about?
Five years later, in nineteen eighty six. What kind of
newspaper or another coverage did her disappearance and untimely death
received back in eighty one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, good question, Bill. I looked back at the newspaper
archives and then also some of the archival footage at
television stations, one of which was WAYYTV ten. For a
period of about a week, it was the lead story
when Janis disappeared. It was in the news, but probably
not as much as you would have expected or would
have hoped. The fact was a young person, a college student.
It was not unusual for a college student just to
take off and go somewhere else. So the media covered
her disappearance. It wasn't front page news. Let's just say
it led the local news for a while, and it
was not featured even on television news. As the story
advanced and then a few sensational events happened, you know,
later on in the story, it was a lead story
on all the local television stations. It was the front
page of the local newspaper's Virginia Pilot and Daily Press. Then. Also,
this was before the national television news like CNN or
MSNBC or Fox News. It was picked up by the
ap and UPI news wires. So the story got a
lot of legs for about a week on the national level.
It was quite sensational for some of the reasons we've
talked about, and.
Speaker 3: Yes, run for three of your books, you've covered the
cases of murdered young women Gina, Rene Hall, Olivia Christian
and Janis Starr. What is it about all of those
cases that spoke to you or compelled you to write
about them?
Speaker 5: In all three, the victim is someone who your heart
really goes out to. They were all three great people
that the world would have been a better place that
they were still around. I don't know. Maybe part of
it has to do with sometimes with true crime, you
think emotionally if you can put yourselves in people's shoes
and just think how terrible that would be. To some degree,
I would from time to time do that as I
thought about the parents or that person's loved ones. But yeah, there,
and I think it just happened to be three very
compelling missing person cases or murder cases that turned into that.
But certainly when another fact, and it was true with these,
is that when a woman disappears or is murdered, the
suspect is usually someone close to them, and the vast
majority of times it's a male that committed that violence.
I'm not sure if that answers your question. And all
these stories are all three of these that you mentioned.
I did certainly had a soft spot for the victim
and the kind of people that they were.
Speaker 2: How did you meet pay and how did the story
move on to your radar as a writer?
Speaker 5: Kay? For quite some time. She first she tried to
tried to write a book on her own and found
that to be a challenge. I think, as most people do,
as I did for many years before I got my
first book published. Then she pursued having someone ghost write
the book for her and that didn't work out. Then
there was an attorney involved in this case who you'll
read about in the book, who went on to become
a Chestbeake Circuit Court judge. His name is John Brown.
He had read one of my books and suggested to
Kay that she contacted me. He said, Hey, this guy
he writes about true crime, specializes in cases in Virginia.
And Kay contacted me actually on social media and said
she'd like to chat a little bit. And then when
she did her story, the story was just incredible. This
is an interesting thing, but a lot of people in
law enforcement who are detectives or investigators, when they retire,
they make copies of that one case that stuck with them.
Sometimes it's a closed k or other times it's still
an open case. They'll bring those documents with them and
think about the case a lot, or even work on
it some or look back and review it and think
about what they could have done differently. And in this case,
Kay had a lot of those case documents. There's a
few police interviews of betting Field where I was able
to have the transcript and work with that. There are
crime scene photos I was able to use as I
wrote about it, to Janice's apartment, and then some of
the forensic reports, and then also even things like search
warrants they used to search his apartment. One quick story
that's in the book, when as Bettingfield becomes a suspect,
they're able to obtain a search warrant for his apartment
where he lives. At this point in the book, he's
moved out from his wife and kids and living on
his own in an apartment. Kay and a few uniformed
officers are executing the search warrant, going through his apartment
looking for anything of evidentiary value, and Kay's asked him
questions and he says, I'm going to hire an attorney.
Kay steps close to him and looks and right in
the eye and says, Okay, you better hire a good attorney, Dwight,
because I've got you by the short.
Speaker 2: Wow, she's so cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that asking you to pick a
favorite of your own books is asking you to pick
a favorite child. And of course we know that's impossible.
So I guess rather than ask about your favorite, I
would say, which one has moved you or touched you
the most. What's the one that's going to live with
you for the rest of your days?
Speaker 5: I would say, right now, it's this book in the Wind,
because it's the most recent and still something about being
the most recent, so it's still pretty fresh. But I
think sometime from now to look back. The first book
I wrote under the Trestle about the Gina Hall case,
someone where her killer was convicted of murder. He's been
in prison now for forty four years. But there's still
an unsolved element to that case, and that Gina Hall's
remains have not been discovered. Just the fact that case
does not have resolution. I wouldn't say closure because Bill,
I'm sure is from your situation. Closure is not a
thing that happens in these cases. Just because the there's
no resolution in that case, and it's still an open case.
The Virginia State Police Special Agent is still working on it.
That's one that will stick with me, and certainly more
of a rabbit hole than the other books I've written.
Speaker 2: Did you ever pursue a meeting with the killer in
the Under the Trestle case?
Speaker 5: I did? I sure did, yes, Steve Epperley. He's now
in Buckingham Prison, the west of Richmond. When I was
writing the book, protocol is if you want to communicate
with any inmates in the Virginia Department of Corrections, you
have to send them a letter on eight and a
half eleven paper. So I sent him a letter, explained
I was writing a book, said hey, I'd like for
you to tell your story, or tell your side of
the story. I'm happy to write a chapter about any
alternate theories you have, or alternate suspects or reasons why
you claim to be innocent. And I didn't hear from them.
And then I sent him another letter and then was
able to verify that he did receive the letter, so
I just didn't hear from him. Then I was in
communication with one of his sisters and she told me
very candidly, yeah, he got letter and he doesn't want
to talk to you, And I said, okay. Then later
after my book came out, I heard from a correctional
officer that he said that he had said many times
over the years in prison that the only one who
was the only one who was good enough to write
his story was John Grisham.
Speaker 2: So not too much ego tied up in that.
Speaker 5: Right, He's a bit narcissistic. So again that, Yeah, that
was Steve Epperley, who was convicted in the murder of
Gina in a hall back in nineteen eighty And you
think of that guy, forty four years he's been in prison.
I guess the latest wrinkle on that case is that
he came up for parole again. I did some research
with about the Virginia Parole Board. Five members of the
parole Board, and they've tends to change with each governor
we have in Virginia that are one term governors. His
parole has been denied every time, So that's in the
eyes of most everyone who's followed that case and myself.
That's a good thing that I think there's only one
way he'lle that leave prison, and that would be in
a pine box. That seems to be what everyone thinks good.
Speaker 2: Is there any role for yourself as a writer and
a journalist and a member of the public. Those hearings
are not open to the public.
Speaker 5: I assume they are not. You're exactly right, Bill, and
I've learned a lot about him, of course, the family
and people that are advocates of him not getting parole,
like the current Commonwealth attorney in the past Commonwealth Attorney
of Pulaski County where the case happens, they have a
hearing of their own. Usually that's via zoom or teleconference
with a Virginia Parole Board where they tell all the
reasons why he should not be paroled and then yeah,
his parole hearing. It is a private hearing, typically is
I understand he only meets with one member of the
parole board and then that one member brings his information
and his answers back to the rest of them and
then they vote. And that's typically the way they do businesses.
I understand there if not for this time, then some
of his parole hearings in the past. Thing I look
at it, he's never never admitted he killed Gina Hall,
never expressed any remorse, says he's innocent, says he was framed.
He continues to say that in his parole hearings. The
way anyone can be paroled is to have been rehabilitated,
and it's clear that he hasn't. He's continued to tell
that lie. I think he's gotten to the point of
no return and that he's told it so long he
can't go back on it. That if you look back,
and it's quite possible, maybe probable, that if early on,
if he'd have told where Gina Hall's remains were and
admitted it, said the circumstances around it, and expressed his remorse,
he would have probably been paroled. So the ironic thing
is that he hid her body so well, that's the
reason why he's not being paroled. So it's interesting the
way that has played out all these years later. Ron.
Speaker 3: Before we finish up, you have a brand new podcast
called Vanished in Virginia, and we would love for you
to tell our listeners all about it so they can
add it to their own list of podcasts that they
need to tune into. So tell us about Vanished in Virginia.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so for years, I've listened to you guys for
years and for five years now, and then other podcasts
as well, true in the true crime genre, and been
told by a lot of people that you know, that
I should do a podcast. My books were certainly good
material for that. So it's called Vanished in Virginia and
it will specialize on missing person cases and murder cases
that happened in Virginia. I'm starting with the ones that
were covered in my books. So right now, the first
four episodes I've done are on the Gina Hall case,
the nineteen to eighty disappearance of Radford University student Gina Hall.
So I'm going through that telling the story. What I
think is going to make my podcast a lot different
is that I've been able to have on the people
as guests who actually worked the case. So either I
have them on as a guest, or I play sound
bites from the interviews I've done with them or interviews
they've done with other people. You hear about the story
from their point of view, and then even brought into
some of the witnesses and some of the people knew
the victim, who knew the killer. And I've got for
my first season, I've got about eight cases I'm going
to cover and probably spend a few episodes on each.
I'm having a good time with it. It's done well,
it's growing growing fast, and it's more of a time
commitment than I thought. I'm sure as you here we
are at seven o'clock at night. At seven o'clock at night,
I know you guys are probably gonna have to microwave
your dinner here eventually. But I'm enjoying it a lot.
And it's a great way to grow my brand and
increase the exposure for my books. So yeah, I'm enjoying it.
Thanks for letting me mention it, Kristen. So it's available
on all podcast platforms and it's called Vanished in Virginia.
But yeah, thanks, And I've learned a lot from you
guys over the years. Bill was the one who helped
me get set up with this, told me what equipment
to buy and what kind of microphone to buy. My
voice does not sound as good as Bill's, but it
sounds as good as I can.
Speaker 2: Dare we ask what's new for you in terms of
your next project. I know you've got a brand new
book to promote within the Wind. Have you started thinking
about what you want to write about next? When the
wheel turns to that point?
Speaker 5: I sure have, Yeah, I got. I've got a good
two or three months to promote this book in the Wind.
It was very fortunate. I have a new publisher who
picked up the book Posthill Press, and the book is
distributed by Simon and Schuster, who you guys probably know
is one of the one of the biggest names in
publishing and book distribution. So my book will have This
book will have a lot more exposure, you know, nationally
in bookstores where it hasn't before. So I'm going on
a book tour that will take me some places outside Virginia,
which will be exciting to give it talks. Generally, I
speak at colleges and universities about these cases and you know,
try to make them educational for someone who might be
a criminal justice student there. So I do that, and
then along the way promote the book and books are
sold at those events, and then also libraries, a lot
of library systems will bring in authors. So I've got
several talks to promote that, and then your independent bookstores,
which I always like to see people promote, and then
also Barnes and Noble's quite a few book signings at
the Barnes and Nobles and Virginia and other states. And
I'm going to the end of August going to la
got some interest in this book as a standalone episode
in on one of the true crime networks. I'll be
talking about that out there, and then as I said,
working with the guy doing or the company doing a
documentary adaptation of my book Chasing the Squirrel, and then
also some promotional events out there. Right now, I'm hoping
this comes through, but it would be an event where
it kind of co hosted where I do a book
talk with along with Jillian Lauren, who you guys had
on your show. Yeah, okay, who has a big deal
in the true crime space and she's out of Los
Angeles now. Among other things she does that are awesome,
she's married to the bass player from Weezer.
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but has written two books that are just incredible
as when has without getting too much into it, just
has an incredible story. But anyway, we're working toward an
event that I hope comes together that would be there
in LA with her as the headliners and me tagging
along hopefully.
Speaker 3: That's fantastic. You've got everything's coming up. Roses here for you.
Speaker 5: Thank you, and then Bill, you'd asked as far as books,
what's next. There was the state prosecutor Phil Fagura, who
prosecuted the case in my last book, Eyes of a Monster.
He worked out of the Attorney General's office and was
a special prosecutor for localities where where they had hard
to prosecute murder cases. So I'm going to work with
him on a case that he prosecuted, and Stanton it
was a nobody murder. This one was not a young girl.
It was a murder of a man who disappeared and
is probably the oldest coldest nobody murder case ever prosecuted.
So I'll have that. A guy went missing in nineteen
eighty three and was never seen. He was engaged to
be married on a Saturday, disappeared on the Thursday before.
His name was the pet Miller. There was always a
suspect in that case. It was his bride to be stepfather,
the guy named Charlie Almond, who was never due auto
repair guy, and the local prosecutor could never make a
case against him. Four decades goes by, and then in
twenty fifteen, Phil Figura is asked to come and prosecute
this guy, who by then is well in his seventies.
Phil agrees to do it and sets out to get
a conviction and the one of the oldest, coldest nobody
murder cases that had ever been prosecuted.
Speaker 2: That sounds like an amazing story. And Kristin and I
don't think we've ever met Phil Forgera, but we've heard
amazing things about him from other people in law enforcement.
Speaker 5: Yes, indeed, And then become full circle here. We haven't
talked about the Colonial Parkway murders, and like so many
of your listeners, I follow those closely and really admire
the work you two have done as advocates for that case.
But Phil Figura, as a prosecutor, worked with was the
FBI case agent on the Colonial Parkway murders, but he
worked with her in prosecuting the Olivia Christian case that
I wrote about in my last book. So yeah, So
it's just an incredible prosecutor and one of the most
modest guys you'd ever meet. He's really impressive.
Speaker 3: This is a pla pleasure as always. I love the book.
It is truly phenomenal, and I am so looking forward
to spending a little bit of time hanging out with
k Shucker, who, like I said, I would like to
grow up to be. And it's always a pleasure of
having you on the pod. So thank you for joining
us as always.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristin, and thank you Bill. And I really
appreciate all you've done for me over the years. You've
really really helped support my writing, so I'm very grateful
for that and I'll continue to enjoy your podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: And where can everybody find the book?
Speaker 5: Yeah, the book's available now for pre order. It's released
on July thirtieth, which at this recording is less than
a week away Tuesday, July thirtieth. It's available at independent bookstores,
on Amazon, at Barnes and Noble, and anywhere you buy books.
It's available in paperback, kindle ebook, and then also on
audible audiobook.
Speaker 3: All right, the book is in the Wind The Disappearance
of Janis Star fourth and hopefully not the last. Ron
Peterson Jr. Ron, thank you so much for joining us. Today.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristin, Thank you Bill. I have a great
rest of the summer.
Speaker 3: Thank you. That's going to do it for this episode
of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murderer.
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