WEBVTT 1 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:27.039 Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott. And this 2 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:30.280 is LA Not So Confidential, the Forensic Psychology and True 3 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:31.199 Crime podcast. 4 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:34.679 Each episode we explore the intersection of psychology, the criminal 5 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:36.119 justice system, and entertainment. 6 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:39.719 Today our episode is on the forensic psychtopic of false 7 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:49.719 confessions versus True Confessions. Welcome back, hope you are enjoying 8 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:54.520 this official beginning of summer. Who we are recording this 9 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:56.920 on Memorial Day. I was the same Memorial Day weekend 10 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:59.600 that like, the weekend's almost over, so we are cruising 11 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:04.599 right in to summer. That means stay tuned for information 12 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:09.120 on our walking tours with c LA. In a day, 13 00:01:09.959 --> 00:01:12.000 we are going to be announcing those dates that are 14 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:16.159 going to be available pretty soon. As always, Patreon members 15 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:19.319 will get first DIBs. We keep these at small groups 16 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:25.040 on purpose, maybe a dozen maybe to fifteen people per tour. 17 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:28.920 So if you're local or if you're going to be 18 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.200 coming in from out of town, your best bet is 19 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:36.480 even if you just join Patreon for a month to 20 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:39.439 be able to snag some spots. That's a tactic when 21 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:41.959 we're not against it, those will be coming up. It's 22 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.840 going to be true Crime Walking tours through Los Angeles. 23 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.599 We're probably going to do two different locations, one more 24 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:52.040 in the Hollywood area and maybe we'll go back downtown 25 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:54.760 for the others. We'll just have to see what our 26 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:58.239 tour guide Chris can come up with for us. Very 27 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.680 exciting as we move into summertime. So what's been going on? 28 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:03.040 What are we doing lately? 29 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:05.319 Both of us have been pretty busy. 30 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:09.319 Right, I've been on Bob rough shows giving commentary on 31 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:12.360 several different things going on, and then you're doing Bob. 32 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:14.319 We're both we're covering the Bobs, right. 33 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:17.879 That covers the Bobs we got. We got Bob's here 34 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:21.879 and there, So yours is like professional have a forensic 35 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.319 psychologist on to talk about some things that are psychology. 36 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:29.039 Like I have just been popping on to defense diaries 37 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:32.039 live streams during the Karen Reid trial because I'm basically 38 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:36.759 like the thirteenth juror. No. Yeah, he's been live streaming 39 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.800 the trial and he and Ali have been offering some commentary. 40 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:43.360 So my days off on Mondays, I've been trying to 41 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.159 pop on for like an hour or so and watch 42 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:48.360 along and then you know, we do a little bit 43 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.159 of chatting. If there's something that comes up that is 44 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:54.960 relevant to you know, any of our experience in the room. 45 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.280 So right, that's been fun on it. 46 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.479 You were the gateway drug for me and the Karen 47 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.840 Reid thing because it was sort of not on my radar. 48 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:05.199 And now I don't know if i'd say obsessed. I'm 49 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:08.439 sort of flabbergasted by the whole thing. There's just so 50 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:11.039 much going on there. I mean, and I'm not even 51 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:14.759 saying that like the waters are muddied. I just think 52 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:18.039 that there's a lot of obfuscation going on there by 53 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:21.599 law enforcement. It seems like ye seems like they're throwing 54 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:22.280 a lot of things. 55 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:22.639 In the air. 56 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:25.159 It's very interesting. I mean, if we were still doing 57 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:29.759 documentary reviews, I hadn't watched the Karen Reid one on 58 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:33.879 purpose until this weekend I started it. But I think 59 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:36.360 it's just such an interesting tactic that her legal team 60 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:39.759 kind of invited in a camera crew. She has said 61 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:41.599 like this has been her way to sort of testify 62 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.919 without testifying, which I mean just kind of speaks to 63 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.000 like the day and age of how trials are tried, 64 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.080 you know, sort of in the courtroom and sort of 65 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.520 by public opinion, and the content that is created around 66 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.599 all that. I mean, we've talked about that before. Sometimes 67 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.280 things are way too soon, and I don't know if 68 00:03:58.280 --> 00:03:59.960 that's a good choice or a bad choice on their part, 69 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.479 but it was obviously strategic. So yeah, yeah, anyway, that's 70 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.520 anything else, like anything good that you've been watching lately. 71 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:10.759 Well, I mean I've been pretty open about this with 72 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:14.080 our Behind the Couch and discord. But I had about 73 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.319 ten days off for a heart surgery, so I was 74 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:18.680 watching I took a break. 75 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:21.319 They're listening icals of Modern Science. 76 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:25.879 I had like this amazing, very quick surgery where you 77 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:27.800 know they go in through your frimeral arteries to kind 78 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:29.600 of fry a couple of cells, and I do. 79 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:30.680 Feel a lot better. 80 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.399 But I was watching a lot of classic horror movies 81 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.519 because those are so relaxing, right. 82 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:40.040 Yeah, those keep your heart nice and calm. 83 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:42.800 Although what I did pick up last weekend and I 84 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:45.800 hope to finish it this week is a really great 85 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.680 book on the Hunt for Brianna Maitland that was given 86 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.560 to me when we were in London last year and 87 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.639 I'm just now finally getting around to reading it, and 88 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:57.879 I feel so badly because the author and I had 89 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.720 a great great conversation. He came over to our table 90 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:02.160 and talk to us at length, and he gave us 91 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.040 signed copies of the book. And I'm just now getting 92 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:06.680 it and like, oh wow, I need to give him 93 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.120 a call. Really well written because he's coming at it 94 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.800 from a private detective standpoint, which is really great. So 95 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:13.759 that's what I've been doing. 96 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.680 So we will move on after this. But I forgot 97 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.000 to tell you there's so many rumors that the OA 98 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:20.680 might be coming back for another season. 99 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.040 Oh yeah, you texted me that. 100 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:23.560 Oh my god, we. 101 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:25.800 Have to, like, I want to go back and rewatch 102 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:27.319 the first two seasons. 103 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:28.040 Yeah, I got to go. 104 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.240 I don't know if I got through the entire second 105 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.199 season because I was just afraid, like, well, if they're 106 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:33.839 not going to continue this, then I'm not because now 107 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.959 they canceled The Wheel of Time on Amazon. Oh oh, way, 108 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.120 as you get sucked into the show and kisses me 109 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:40.759 off shoot, All. 110 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:42.920 Right, enough of that, let's do a recap of our 111 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:44.160 last episode. Then we'll get into it. 112 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:46.800 On our last episode, we spoke with Michael Bayer, founder 113 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.000 of True Case Films, and he's also the director behind 114 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:54.199 the new three part true crime docuseries Vanished to have 115 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:57.120 their Elvis case. Michael has a background in video production 116 00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:59.680 spanning over a decade, but what sets him apart is 117 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.160 time time spent working inside a criminal defense law firm, 118 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.639 where he gained a deep understanding of the legal strategies 119 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.319 and the psychological dynamics of the justice system, and in Vanished, 120 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:12.759 he brings both of those worlds together. He uses his 121 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:16.480 storytelling skills and legal insight to not only explore the 122 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.519 haunting disappearance of Heather Elvis, but to also shed light 123 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:23.399 on the powerful influence of social media in shaping public 124 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:28.879 opinion as well as impacting real life investigations. It's a 125 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:34.079 gripping series that also raises important questions about online behavior, misinformation, 126 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:35.839 and the long road to justice. 127 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:37.519 It also has some just. 128 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:43.560 Absolutely startling twists in it, and really, from a clinical 129 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:48.040 psychologist forensic psychologists perspective, there are some bizarre behavior in 130 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:50.600 this documentary and I highly recommend that you watch those 131 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.360 three episodes. But if you haven't had a chance to 132 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:56.199 listen to our interview with him, please check out episode 133 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:58.319 two seven for more details. 134 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.439 Yes, so that brings us to episode two oh eight. 135 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:05.240 Today Big Topic, a topic that has been covered a 136 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:10.439 lot on other shows, especially just in terms of false confessions, 137 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:14.240 wrongful convictions, you know something, In a sense, we haven't 138 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:17.439 really dipped our toe into a whole lot. But today 139 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:21.120 we want to keep this one pretty research focused as 140 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.319 to stay away. I don't know, I guess from a 141 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.480 lot of the lore and emotionality about false confessions that 142 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:31.160 really has like swept the true crime world in recent years. 143 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.199 So we are going to stick to what we know 144 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.279 and more importantly, what we don't know about this topic. 145 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:41.399 Right, We've got a lot of science that we'll be covering, 146 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.319 which I think is fascinating. But this is an interesting 147 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.800 field and area of study within our line of work, 148 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:51.120 and I hope that there'll be even more studies that 149 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.720 come along. But trigger warnings. For today's episode, we're going 150 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.839 to be talking about episodes of violence, cases regarding murder 151 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:03.199 and assault, interrogation, intimidation, and emotional manipulation. 152 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.319 So in the United States, overturning a wrongful conviction, especially 153 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.680 for high level in serious crimes such as murder, while 154 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:15.519 it's a very long and complex and uphill process, and 155 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.959 it's rarely a successful battle for people already behind bars, 156 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.319 the justice system is designed not to make reversals like 157 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:28.560 this easy, especially when there's a recorded confession. From the 158 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.759 West Memphis three to the Central Park five to endless 159 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:36.159 cases around the world, false confessions have played a disturbing 160 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:40.279 role in some of the most infamous and unjust wrongful convictions. 161 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.039 We have Jesse miss Kelly, a teenager with a low 162 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:47.320 IQ who was pressured into confessing to a triple homicide 163 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:52.159 in West Memphis, Arkansas. His story was riddled with inconsistencies 164 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.679 and was unsupported by any physical evidence. His statement then implicated, 165 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.320 of course, Jason Baldwin and Damian eccles, all all of 166 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.399 whom spent eighteen years in prison before DNA evidence and 167 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.360 public pressure led to their release. 168 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.080 In New York City, the Central Park five five teen 169 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.200 Natures of Color, were coerced into confessing to a brutal 170 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:16.279 attack on a jogger in nineteen eighty nine. They later recanted, 171 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:21.879 and DNA even later identified the actual perpetrator. Their convictions 172 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:25.679 were only vacated after they had already served time. John Purvis, 173 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:28.879 a man with schizophrenia, was intimidated into confessing to a 174 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.039 murder he didn't commit, and was largely convicted on a 175 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.679 statement made to his psychiatrist, leading him to spend nine 176 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:39.559 years in prison before the real killers were discovered. Also, 177 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.639 Juan rivera under house arrest at the time of the 178 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:46.480 crime he was accused of, was manipulated into giving a 179 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:50.279 false confection to the murder of an eleven year old victim, 180 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:55.919 leading to three wrongful convictions despite exonerating DNA evidence. 181 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:00.240 And in Iceland's most notorious criminal case, six individuals we're 182 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.799 driven to confess to two murders that likely never occurred 183 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:10.600 following intense psychological coercion and abuse. Diagnosed with memory distrust syndrome, 184 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.919 they were ultimately acquitted after decades of injustice. These cases 185 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:17.519 reveal how easily the criminal justice system can be led 186 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:22.159 astray when confessions true or not, become the foundation of prosecution, 187 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:26.159 and that memory distrust syndrome I just mentioned, we will 188 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:27.320 definitely come back to that. 189 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.600 It seems like just synchronicity. There's a lot of talking 190 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:33.720 about that right now in the air with several cases. 191 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:37.679 The sad thing about this subject today is the reality 192 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.919 is this happens way more often than people think. And 193 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.000 according to the Innocence Project, which if you're not familiar 194 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:49.240 with the Innocence project. Please go to their website. They 195 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:53.080 are an amazing organization that does amazing work and they 196 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:58.159 have incredible databases and really really solid statistical research. Nearly 197 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.159 one in three DNA based exonerations involved a false confession. 198 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.519 That's over twenty eight percent of cases where somebody admitted 199 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:09.679 to a crime they never committed. 200 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:10.679 I think it. 201 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:14.039 Boggles the mind for most people, even if you are 202 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.519 a fan of this genre. Why would anyone admit guilt 203 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.639 if they're innocent? And the reason is because the psychological, emotional, 204 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:28.279 and situational pressures in police interrogations can absolutely lead to 205 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.720 that outcome. To look at this from a larger perspective 206 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.759 or a more holistic, well rounded view, let's start with 207 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:39.320 this sort of cosmic view. What urges us to tell 208 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.559 the truth? You know, we tell the truth for a 209 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:47.000 variety of reasons, primarily to build trust, to foster strong relationships, 210 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.840 and to maintain societal order. And that's not necessarily a 211 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:54.799 conscious thing. It's built into us if we're raised pretty 212 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.600 normally and we've got great people to look up to 213 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:01.399 as we are going through our de middle stages as children. 214 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.120 Because when people trust us, they're more likely to believe 215 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.840 what we say and rely on us. Honesty nourishes all 216 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.360 types of relationships, whether they are with family, friends, or 217 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:14.480 romantic partners. 218 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.279 Right and truth telling is also seen as a moral imperative. 219 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:21.120 It's something you feel like you have to do because 220 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.279 it's the right thing to do, like your conscience won't 221 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.000 let you walk away from it. For example, if you 222 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.600 see someone being bullied and you feel like you just 223 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:34.200 can't stay silent, that urge to speak up or step in. 224 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:38.639 That is a moral imperative in action. It's also a 225 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.960 reflection of respect for others, and it treats them with 226 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.679 dignity and shows that you value their perspective. Many believe 227 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:49.600 that honesty is a moral principle that should be followed, 228 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:54.320 as it reflects a commitment to integrity. Truth telling is 229 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.519 essential for maintaining a functioning society as it allows people 230 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.919 to navigate interaction and build trust in a system. 231 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:02.960 So in his. 232 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.000 Article entitled The Frightful Prospect of truth Telling, writer Seth 233 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:10.879 Slater responds to a previous article he had written on 234 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:14.080 the subject of why people lie, and he explores why 235 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:18.279 lying is such a common human behavior and why reactions 236 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:23.679 to his first article were so significant. So even when 237 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:28.080 we say we value honesty, why is lying so common? 238 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.240 He points out that lying isn't just human. He notes 239 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:35.360 that animals like gorillas, dolphins, and even birds can show 240 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:40.440 deceptive behaviors, suggesting that lying may have evolutionary roots and 241 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:45.279 how social creatures are able to navigate their environments. The 242 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.840 point being is that to some extent, deception itself is 243 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.679 a survival tool, not just a moral failing. Children begin 244 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:57.039 experimenting with deception as early as six months old, with 245 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:01.399 skills becoming more complex by age four, So this developmental 246 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.720 process suggests that lying is not learned from culture alone. 247 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:08.440 It's something that we refine with practice, like any form 248 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:13.519 of communication, again, likely an adaptive survival value that works 249 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:18.080 for us. In communication with readers about his previous article online, 250 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.039 Slayer notes that people share they are grappling with the 251 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:28.240 emotional and ethical tension between being truthful and lying for convenience, 252 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.600 for self protection, or even for kindness. 253 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.720 It's so funny that you used birds as an example 254 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:38.519 of lying, because my husband just showed me this video 255 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:42.000 the other day where this magpie was injured, and it's 256 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.320 like on a sidewalk next to a store somewhere. 257 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:45.240 I saw this, see it. 258 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:50.120 Yeah, And so this injured bird gets fed by someone 259 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:54.399 and then the other birds come and they start sprawling. 260 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.960 Out and with the wide open. 261 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.080 Yeah, they're like stumbling. 262 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:04.080 Around, I'm dying and like food, lumping down, give me food. 263 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.759 I was like, oh my god, this is so smart 264 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:08.000 but so manipulated. 265 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:08.679 Yeah. 266 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:11.799 I remember there was a wonderful nature documentary that was 267 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.679 showing an animal rescue that had a lot of orangutangs 268 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:17.759 and they were getting their favorite treat of the day, 269 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:21.960 which was oranges, and they would get in line and 270 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:24.919 come in front, and then they would show, here's the 271 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.000 best liar in the group is that one would break 272 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.759 out of line and get in line again and hide 273 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.840 his two oranges behind his back in order to get 274 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.720 another one. It's fascinating because it's just again another example 275 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:42.639 of how little we actually know about brain functioning animals, 276 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.399 and it sort of it really is the final frontier 277 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:50.240 for human consciousness as well as far as us studying ourselves. So, 278 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.480 going back to Slater's article, while the saying that we 279 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.000 all use honesty is the best policy holds a lot 280 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:02.000 of cultural weight, honesty is definitely not always the best 281 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.519 choice in every situation, and I think all of us can. 282 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:05.080 Relate to that. 283 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:10.080 Look, we weigh decisions based on context, on risk, and 284 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:13.879 on personal stakes, and a lot of times we decide 285 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.519 in the moment whether or not to lie or tell 286 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.200 the truth. And there's discomfort around truth telling, especially when 287 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:23.799 the truth is difficult, and sometimes it just leads people 288 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:25.919 to lie is the easier route, even if they feel 289 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.440 guilty afterwards. In essence, Slater is saying that truth and 290 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:34.399 lies are often weighed, sort of like a cost benefit analysis, 291 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:39.879 and even white lies can have significant unintended consequences. So, 292 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.360 big picture, why take the risk of lying? Because people 293 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.759 lie for two main reason. There's the thrill of seeing 294 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:49.440 that they can get away with it, which feels very childlike. 295 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.320 It also feels a little antisocial, right, But it also 296 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.279 depends on the age and the overall functioning of an individual, 297 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.159 and that could mean a lot of things, because a 298 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:03.080 child's willful lie can be very different from the motivation 299 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.480 of an adult's willful lie. Most likely, though, are what 300 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.960 we call perceived benefits that can come as a result 301 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.400 of the line, like protecting themselves, looking good, avoiding conflict, 302 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.880 or even sometimes helping someone else, And sometimes the potential 303 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:23.039 payoff like saving face or maintaining privacy for that individual, 304 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:27.559 it outweighs the potential damage that could be coming as 305 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:31.160 a consequence. Additionally, if a lie, if it's believable and 306 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.960 it goes undetective, that lie may actually elevate someone in 307 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.480 the eyes of others, and in some cultures or contexts 308 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:44.960 that perceive effectiveness or confidence may actually matter more than truthfulness. 309 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.960 I'll never forget in talking with my nephew who is 310 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:52.640 former Secret Service and much like you and me, like 311 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.119 a research or like just loves you know, going to 312 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:59.000 trainings and getting on this information, and we were talking about. 313 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.079 Our episode so a couple of years ago about. 314 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.279 Con artists, and he was sharing with me. One of 315 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:08.839 their trainings was talking about why all of these overseas 316 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:13.240 scam calls are so successful, because people will say, well, 317 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:19.200 how could these individuals in these other countries be so evil? 318 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:24.039 They're stealing from old people, and the way my nephew 319 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.720 was Toddy said. Their experts came in and said their 320 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:31.359 cultural view is very, very different. It's not my fault 321 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.039 that you were falling for this, it's your fault for 322 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:39.640 being stupid, which is very different from our Western mindset 323 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.319 right or the what we say, which is why if 324 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.599 you do have that mindset of like, well, people should 325 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.559 be good, then that can even set you up for 326 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:50.079 being more of a victim. 327 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.559 Wow, that's really interesting and thank you for all of 328 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:56.960 that foundation. For folks listening. That sounded a bit familiar. 329 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.000 We pulled some of that from our episode on Pathological Line, 330 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.000 which was episode one twenty two seems like forever ago. 331 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.559 So if you guys want more on that topic specifically, 332 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.839 feel free to go back and listen. But getting back 333 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:13.759 to today's like looking at these differences between true and false 334 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:17.799 confessions and the research behind it. Really, I mean, with 335 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.160 conversations with some other creators, we have been pretty inspired 336 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.240 while guesting on those shows and kind of listening to 337 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:30.759 other podcasts that we're covering some really intense cases about 338 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.680 false confessions being at the heart of that case. We've 339 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.000 all listened to like amazing shows that have really really 340 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:41.640 dove deep into those. But for Scott and I, the 341 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:43.359 way we work, we just simply wanted to see with 342 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:47.400 the literature about the hallmarks of and the factors in 343 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:52.319 true confessions and false confessions has to say, like what 344 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.759 is out there In reviewing the available research, we decided 345 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:02.160 to break this up into a differences. Just looking at it, 346 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:06.559 it made sense to look at circumstantial differences, linguistic differences, 347 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.200 and behavioral differences. So this really is kind of the 348 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.000 meat and potatoes of the episode that we're getting into already. 349 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:14.480 So we're going to do that, and then we're going 350 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:19.920 to move into false confession specific research and then look 351 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.839 at evidence based interrogations. To kick us off here, we 352 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:26.319 were able to find a paper from March of twenty 353 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:30.440 nineteen in the Frontiers of Psychiatry journal titled Confessions and 354 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:36.119 Denials when Guilty and Innocent forensic patients self reported behavior 355 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.880 during police interviews. Yes, titles are always very worthy, but 356 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.039 we got to get it across an title so someone 357 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.839 can search it. Was your dissertation a mile long title 358 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.839 like mine was no, no good, I love it nice 359 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:50.359 and concise. 360 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:50.839 Yeah. 361 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:54.160 So this study used a forensic population out of Germany 362 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:59.359 and explored their behaviors and circumstances during police interviews. And 363 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.200 they were able to get these individuals to talk about 364 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:06.920 experiences of being interviewed by the police when they were 365 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.000 actually guilty of a crime and then times when they 366 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.720 had been questioned when they were actually innocent, like maybe 367 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:16.119 they were a person of interest because of their criminal 368 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:18.319 backgrounds or kind of being in the area when the 369 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.079 crime occurred, that sort of thing. Actually, of the entire 370 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.039 population of the people that they interviewed, two thirds of 371 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:27.799 the sample actually had this exact experience, so they were 372 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.559 able to garner a lot. So in terms of their 373 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:38.079 findings with regard to circumstantial factors, they found that quote 374 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.200 with respect to true confessions, so that's meaning someone who 375 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:46.039 was actually guilty and confessing to it. The most commonly 376 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:50.720 reported reason was that the evidence was strong. This suggests 377 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:54.200 that strength of evidence is crucial for the decision to 378 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.720 make a true confession, and this is once more in 379 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:02.960 line with already existing empirical evidence end quote. 380 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.559 So another paper that looks at some of the particular 381 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.759 factors and true versus false confessions is an older one 382 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.359 from twenty eleven. Okay, I must be wearing pantaloons to 383 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.240 think that twenty eleven is old. 384 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.240 But it is, oh my. 385 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:16.680 God, I mean in the research world. 386 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:19.680 In the research world, right, But it is from a 387 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:22.640 leading arm of the American Psychological Association, the Journal of 388 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:26.839 Psychology Public Policy, and law. So the paper is titled 389 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:32.640 Comparing true and false Confessions among Persons with Serious Mental Illness. 390 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.000 This is really important, folks, because we're going to be 391 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:40.640 coming back to factors involved in false confessions and individuals 392 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.720 with factors that impact their mental health is a very 393 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.400 big part of this discussion. But the research starts right 394 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.240 off essentially saying that what we found there is way 395 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:54.599 more research out there on false confessions than there is 396 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:57.480 true confessions. And before we look at their main finding, 397 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:01.880 I'm sure you're wondering what serious mental illnesses, which we'll 398 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:06.519 be calling SMI, means, so that you can conceptualize this information. 399 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:10.079 So serious mental illness or SMI is going to refer 400 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:15.759 to one or more mental, behavioral, or emotional disorders that 401 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:20.519